Beer is a Conversation: Adam Trippe Smith

It was always part of the plan to put a brew in, but for many years it it was just a plan. It's a hundred percent acquisition of Green Beacon. No, we had a chat with everybody. Anyone would have seen this coming a mile away. It's always fun to get to speak about beer And that's just what we're here to do, speak about beer.

I'm Brews News Editor Matt Kirkegaard and this is Beer is a Conversation, our weekly sit-down with the people who make the beer industry the interesting and dynamic thing that it is. And through these conversations, we dig a little deeper into the stories behind the business of beer and brewing.

The Australian brewing landscape is rapidly evolving, and here we try and make sense of what is happening and better understand the issues shaping the industry. Welcome back to another year, our tenth year of covering the Australian brewing industry through these podcasts. And we welcome back our major sponsor Cry Moltres. These conversations wouldn't and they couldn't happen without the support from the team at Cry and Molt.

If we're the original Australian beer podcaster They are the original brewing revolutionaries and they've been proud sponsors of this podcast since the very beginning. And this week we catch up with one of our very early guests on the podcast, Adam Tripp Smith. We first spoke with Adam way back in january twenty twelve, when he was with the McLaren Vale Beer Company, which he co founded in two thousand seven.

In that conversation we were joined by Bridge Road Brewing's Ben Krause to discuss the then rather contentious role of contract brewing in craft beer and the issues around the marketing and provenance of beers made under contract. So much has happened since then. Adam left McLarenvale, eventually founding Australia's first Keg Lease company, Kegstar, taking it national, gradually selling the business to supply chain logistics company Brambles, which saw it become international.

He left Kegstar in twenty eighteen and after a break recently reentered the brewing industry founding Convoy Kegst. A keg rental business that competes with his former creation, while at the same time, together with some illustrious co founders, he is soon to officially launch another brewery, White Bay Beer Company in Sydney. It should also be mentioned that through all of this, Adam was heavily involved in establishing what is now the Independent Brews Association.

This is a great episode that is rich in industry insight and advice for those involved in the entrepreneurial side of the brewing industry, as befits one of the most prolific brewing entrepreneurs in the country. Here's my chat with Adam Trippsmith.

Adam Tripp Smith, welcome back to Beers of Conversation. It's been a long, long time. I was about to say the same thing. It's been ages, mate. Uh you know better than I, but I think you reminded me earlier that it was uh probably almost eight, ten years ago. Well there have been a coup that we we have had a couple of chats and that's what we'll uh talk about today because one of the things that we always think about when we uh

Choosing guests for Virat of Conversation is you've got to pay your price of admission um to to be on the show. You know, it's it's what value do our listeners get out of the the guests, not just the fact that we wanna have a chat with somebody. And y I I can't think of too many people who have had more um

sort of uh dynamic experience in in the brewing industry than you have. Um I think the first time we we we spoke was just after you'd launched Vale or you'd been involved in putting Vale together. We spoke at least once uh when you got Kegstar going. Um and now you've basically gone having opened a brewery and a keg star.

uh business. So uh yeah, so keen to have a bit of a uh a chat about that. But for those who are late to the party and uh I I would encourage them to go back'cause we did uh it must have been twenty eleven we had a very interesting chat looking at contract brewing with uh Ben Krause. Yeah. Come and gone.

you you weren't born into the beer industry, you uh you you had a career before that. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your your your former career? Sure. Sure. I mean without boring you, very quickly, grew up in Adelaide, studied accounting and business, went into chartered accounting. That morphed into corporate finance or corporate development, so n not banking but working for comp large companies. So at what point did you become interesting?

Some would say I'm still not But yeah, so so you had a background in in in finance. Accounting and finance in Adelaide, then London for three years. Uh my first dose of the beverage industry was I worked for Diagio in their head office for a year, nineteen ninety nine, when I arrived in London in their treasury area. Um so that was a that was a finance job but it was an an introduction and and probably my only breeding for the beverage world. Um but that wasn't, you know, that that role and that

company wasn't for me. I ended up in Sydney again working for a couple of large corporates, doing investments for them, investing in other or buying and selling businesses in the industries they're in. And a mate of mine who's from Adelaide, but we'd met in London, uh, we wanted to do something outside of our corporate careers and we looked at a whole heap of Crazy ideas. We looked at wine, decided that was way too competitive. We looked at a concrete plant, we looked at a

water ski boat manufacturing business that had gone bus, which would have been fun. Um anyway, long story short, we looked at beer as well. And it was the era when in Sydney and we're both working in sort of corporate jobs in Sydney that Sainanu Barrens and Snowy Mountains were sort of m big if you m and you'll probably remember that era well. Um

So we'd been watching that happening and probably frankly, probably Saint Arnou watching that do quite well from a brand building point of view in Sydney. Um but all three of them and uh

And that sort of we were watching it in Sydney just take off'cause obviously Little Creatures was already present. Both of us grew up in Adelaide drinking Coopers so we're familiar with that side of things. But it was watching those three businesses you know, and I guess um at the time coming and going, uh, that we saw and sort of got an inkling for uh the start of the beer world in Australia and sort of that pricked our interest.

We you know, we went down to Mountain Goat, it's kind of you know, and the venue we're in now, which we'll talk about later, was is still kind of one of our benchmark venues in the country if not the world. And uh so we studied, you know, s that Australian micro sort of area and then looked at the US and thought, Okay, well, this looks fun and uh we think Australia's gonna follow in the US footsteps, eight or eight years behind, seven years behind.

And we also thought it would be something we could start, I guess, probably naively, uh, on the side of our day jobs, and that proved to be completely incorrect.

And that had to be fixed at some point, but that's literally how we got into it. Uh it's it's hard. daytime like it's a bit more of a core business for you rather than a side project, i i isn't it? Uh well look I think the kegs is definitely a core project. Um the b the brewery's a passion and for me actually I'd you know I'm working with mates and people that I have a lot of respect for and we've all got very different skills. So I can add a lot to this business.

in the back end, um, hopefully, and uh and have a bit of fun. But I also learn a lot, I think, about my primary industry which is providing kegs and logistics through being on the other side of the fence and that was kind of

also how Kegstar came about, being on the other side of the fence with Vale led f you know, one thing to another. So so tell us about Vale and and and I I'm interested that you thought that you could do that on the side to to some extent because just last week we uh did a story about mulch shed, um, where there were three professionals who thought that they could

start that and grow it quickly to the point that it would become a replacement for them and uh so d there's still a common thinking about that. What what what was uh the the the process going through w with fail? Because you're with them for three or four years. Yeah, look we Dave and I started the Vale Journey in January two thousand and seven and we sold our first beers in January two thousand eight.

And I went full time July one, two thousand and eight. So it wasn't probably the plan forever to be doing it on the side but To certainly get it up and running. Um you know we both put whatever spare cash we had into it to get it up and running. But probably a bit naive as to just day to day how much needs to be done to make it To make it work. And it was at a time I guess where there wasn't that many brews, like we were following in the footsteps of some

earlier pioneers in craft and uh but we were contract brewing. We had chosen a a wine region which we loved and thought was uh under underpromoted in some ways. It was in you know the lesser known cousin to the brossa in the in the in using the wine expression. So did you have any connection with McLaren available for then or did you identify that as a

brand suitable area. So we didn't neither of us grew up in McLarenville we grew up in urban Adelaide. Uh I owned a house on the beach in McLarenville as our kind of Adelaide base if you like, for my wife and I. But no, it was because Dave and I used to summer uh t we'll go back with our kids to see our families.

and spend the summer in the beach down there for, you know, four weeks and got to know it and thought it's just crazy that this wonderful region of vineyards and beaches, you know, which a lot of wine regions don't have, doesn't have a brewery or anything like that. So We naively thought we should be the ones to uh solve that problem and off we went. And one day at lunch, you know, brainstorming ideas of rolled off my tongue and I was like

Fucking hell, why isn't why has never no one ever used that brand in in McLarenville and why isn't a winery started a brewery? You know, it just kind of Off it went, you know, it got a life of its own and uh we worked on the project. How do you how do you make beer? You know, we were completely

Uh I would say almost imbeciles when it comes to starting up a beer company, completely unqualified to do it. It was just sheer d determination and focus that we got it up and running, um not without its trials.

And uh and that was obviously contract brewing. We couldn't afford to we wouldn't even known how to buy a brew house back then and and and we would have failed if we tried to do that, I'm convinced. So it was then seeking out and luckily finding, you know, AIB at the time that could contract brew, um and get us up and running. And there was a lovely uh

Brewer there and his name's uh gonna escape me. A master brewer that was out for only a year from the UK to help AIB at a time when they were having a few operational issues and uh The gentleman, uh Nick I think his name was, apologies, um, happened to be living in uh Baumain at the time and loved Cooper's Pale Owl. So we would often just sit down with him and have beers on a Saturday and go, right, well this is the kind of

direction of beer we want to go, can you help us get it up and running? So I mean that Without boring everyone about a bit of history there, that's kind of how it started. Um we started selling beer on the side and quickly after six months of doing that, realised that one of us had to either go full time or we had to shut the project down. So I was at a time of the corporate where I was ready for a new challenge. I kind of grew up in a family business in Adelaide, I was surrounded by, you know

family and friends that own businesses and I really wanted to have a crack myself so I decided to to leave. It was the time I was working in the media industry at the time, um on the finance side of things, not not journalism or anything like that. And the media industry was struggling back in two thousand eight. So it was a good time for me to leave. Newspapers weren't doing so what's the sort of

You told me the other day, it's worth heaps. Anyway, sorry I didn't mean to uh I I I'd forgotten that little uh in the background. Well that's that's where I was. So, you know, July two thousand eight, uh, I left uh APN News and Media as it was called back then where I was working, which is a a listed Aust Australasian media company in Newspapers and radio and grabbed a four pack of Vale under my arm and off I went. No salary, self funded for eighteen months.

Testing could I sell beer, would people drink our beer and would people buy into the brand proposition that we were presenting? And so we did that and after sort of twelve months of doing that, you know, came back to Dave and said, Look, it's it's working, I can see some legs here but

We need we need more money than we've got, so we need to bring in a couple of, you know, friendly wealthy mates that might throw some cash into a venture and off we're running. But We chose not to sink the cash into stainless steel straight away. We wanted to you know, we wanted to build a national brand and rightly or wrongly we therefore went down a strategy path. Everyone has to decide whether you do a brew pub or a local brewery or a national brewery or whatever.

We wanted to build a national brand. And so therefore we put people on the streets, you know, selling our brand and we decided to do that, then a hospitality venue, then a brewery last. And often that The wrong order and everyone would often do it in reverse these days, but that's what we chose to do.

Vale had one of the strongest brand like w in terms of seeing something and having it immediately resonate because it was the inverted the the bunch of grapes with the three two one. Um so straight away you knew where it was from. it was a professional like it it wasn't just somebody's um sixteen year old art student daughter knocking that together. There there was there was a a brand architecture, there was a thinking behind that that at the time was very, very unusual for craft breweries.

Well thank you for the feedback. Br I mean brand and I guess is a I'm not qualified but it's a little passion of mine and we did. We wanted a beer that was different. Uh we didn't want a round circle handcrafted and all that. We wanted something different and I guess to be blunt, you know, we thought

To get past a million litres we have to be approachable by a whole range of drinkers, uh, from You know, the beer aficionado that's trying every new IPA or stout or whatever that's coming to the market too. the bankers and the lawyers in the in the streets of Sydney and Melbourne going to a bar after work. You know, we wanted to give an offering that was you know, at the lower end of the alcohol spectrum.

not too hoppy, but a brand that they could recognise and see in the fridge more importantly and go, what is that? I'll try one of those things. So um so we did. And uh you know, but that that strategy I guess was you know, we had looked at it and realised that Every brewery pre us that had got to a million litres kept growing and kept growing really well. And uh and I think that Tipping point still stands today when I talk to, you know, the last three years of breweries that have started up.

You get to that point and something happens. You've either got enough brand recognition, enough taps, enough salespeople on the streets, something where you keep going and and at our time When you looked at it, um, you know, Blue Tongue had pushed through it and grown very quickly obviously and until their deals happened. Little Creatures obviously a stunning success.

Um so we came along and and and went for that and frankly built our business model around achieving that as quick as we could because You know, we weren't we weren't brewers by trade. And uh you know w we we figured right if we're gonna have some other people investing and owning this with us. We're effectively selling part of the farm up front.

So it therefore needs to be a success nationally and not just a a local sustainable two mates or husband and wife type you know, brewery. So we we committed to that path from day one. Um We're doing that a different way now with the brew we're sitting in, but back then in the day for us as individuals that was the right path to go down. You know, had we gone down a brew pub, toasting room

you know, all all about our beer in terms of, you know, I'm the brewer,'cause we weren't, w we we would have failed. So um and frankly we couldn't afford any of it. Um You know, a a little bit of money each enables you to do one or two brews and and a brand and you're off and running. But uh

Yeah, buying stainless steel kegs and everything else that goes with it these days is just frighteningly expensive. At some point before you opened the Wollanga Brewery, um you're I'm trying to remember the name of the beautiful little hotel. The Slope. That's it. Uh and a w at what point did you guys invest in that? Because it it was almost the veiled tapera.

So it was exactly that. So that was I I remember distinctly. So late in two thousand and nine I had just brought in a little bit of investment for some mates.

Starting to think about literally putting on a couple of people'cause it was still just me and uh and then starting to think about a brewery and we would have needed to get some more money but at least we had a deposit. And late in two thousand and nine I remember one of my mates In one of the wineries rang me and said I've heard the sloping in might be for sale. And I was literally down there that afternoon asking the owner if that was true and he said yes.

It's time, I've had enough, I'm tired. Uh I was right, let's talk. And um so we did we jumped on that, bought the the business if you like, not the building. The sloping inn for anyone that's listening was a an old historic inn for travellers in McLarenvale, sort of halfway between the McLarenvale Township and Wallunga Township. Build an eighteen fifty one and just a beautiful old blue stone or something. Blue stone or sandstone, yeah, it is. One of the stones. No, you're testing my uh

Lack of knowledge. Um but on a corner overlooking three vineyards. So stunning and so I only remember it'cause that was the first time I met you, was uh we were there and it was a memorable experience. Yeah, yeah. No, I look it's it's stunning. Uh and that also I mean uh diverted cash, but uh you know, we are able to get it relatively good value. I spent a bit of money renovating it'cause it was fairly run down.

And we did for a period of time turn it from the slopeing in into veiling, you know. Um And that became uh seller door. Um and to the point uh when I left it that it was still the case and then we added the Willung Brewery, you know, alongside of it down the track. Background in finance, you decide to open uh a a beer brand and then go into hospitality?

w which are specialty areas of knowledge, but Th there's still businesses. Is it easier for a business person to open a brewery or a hotel than it is for a brewer to really take to business? It's probably the million dollar question. Uh if we did a servo we'd probably find fifty percent on each bucket. Um I don't know. I won't comment on brewers going into business. Um I guess from my point of view, being numbers trained and and ulti and having a passion I guess for

Good drink and good food. I just threw myself into it. Um, you know, uh someone with a hospitality background would have done it better than I we did. Luckily I had an amazing uh head chef in Billy um and then later um not day one but later down the track Ewan Bruiten came in as venue manager who's now

Better known for being a mismatch. So Ewan was within i in the early days. So having that team of Billy and Ewan was incredible. Ewan is front of house, um, who'd come out of the Adelaide hospitality business and got his passion for beer.

Somewhat, uh, I guess with us in those days, but and took himself off to train and the rest is history with mismatch, so he's done incredibly well. So once we had that little combo going and then you know, me pushing that and and brewing as well, I guess you just come at it all with an open mind and is this the right decision and will it make money? Is it right for the brand? Is it right for the consumer? And do all that. I guess having a

Yeah, for lack of a boring expression, finance and admin background, you take certain things for granted. And so I can do a lot of that. Without thinking about it too much, whereas a lot of people find the whole finance and admin and legal and accounting and numbers and banking and all that just stressful. Um So I came

to the world, the beverage world with that and I've had to learn what makes consumers tick. What's a good process of production for beer, who are th who are the good brewers, you know, what what you know, there's so many ingredients that are going into making a successful brewery or or supplier frankly in the beer world these days. You've got to have them all to be, you know, really successful, not just one or two aspects of it all.

Yeah, so f my journey with Vale was January two thousand and seven project start to December thirty one, two thousand eleven. So what's that? Six years, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, five years? Yep. Look I mean the whole market has changed during that time and since that time. Uh that m you know, m my first Learning I guess is that contract brewing with a regional name is extremely hard.

Um and there's n not just about the Vale experience but countless podcasts and interviews, you know, often with you involved, with brewers that have gone down that path. I don't know. That's that's that's not a criticism or anything, it's it's just an observation that that that is hard. Um

We chose to do that with the belief that McLaren Vale itself and Vail as a brand, given the right time and effort, could be an incredible brand nationally um in Australia and and certainly in South Australia known for The wine region, um morphing it into a more of a hospitality region, and that's now happening.

Sure I'm correct in saying this. It was m the McLaren Vale Beer Company rather than McLarenvale Brewing Company from memory, was it? Correct. There was a couple of iterations but the first one was McLarenvale Beer Company. Um I mean I chose that because Day one, we didn't have a brewery. Uh I also like the cleanliness of beer company where we're um featuring the end product and ultimately recognising the the consumers, the

the owner if you like, um, rather than the process. And and that's I guess an example of me coming to it not as a brewer, whereas I think most brewers would always say, I'm gonna call my

My my venture Kierkegaard Brewing as opposed to Kirkguard beer company. There's no right or wrong. Um So we w we did that, um post my time uh and also in the early days we experimented with Vail Brewing and and it went by many names but it was ultimately most known as Vail Our, almost as a brand, a product and a business name.

But officially it was McLaren Bale beer company. Twenty eleven you move on. Um and you for remember you went back into there was a period where you left the the beer industry for a little while. So yeah, so we when I exited out of Fail we had eight shuttles, so myself and seven others. We'd gone through a massive massive growth spurt. We had uh you know, it's it's a long history now, we'd had

serious discussions with the old fosters yeah back then. Um and basically had a deal where they were interested in taking a stake uh and working with us to grow it. Um

literally two weeks after we agreed, you know, terms in principle, SAB Miller lobbed their bid for Fosters and and they got busy, you know, defending a massive takeover. So we went down our own path, um you know, uh we stayed on the same path really and did another capital raise'cause bear in mind we're still, you know, burning cash as as all these businesses growing rapidly do.

And uh it was also at the same time where I was, you know, frankly, if I'm being brutal and being selfish, I'd started as fifty percent of it. By that stage I was down under twenty percent. I'd learnt a lot along the way. You know, I was I was half my life in McLarenvale, half my life in Sydney and that was taking its toll and children along the way and and was ready, frankly, and my plan was okay We had three investors in there who were interested in in buying out myself and formation.

So Dave who started it with me and three other mates who were the early investors. And so we elected to to let them take it on the next journey and my mates were happy to get out and uh so my plan was frankly to do that, take some time off and Start a newbury in Sydney. And and you're right, uh as I promised my family I'd have a three month break and just You know, these these start ups are pretty taxing.

And I did and my old company that I'd worked for, APN, asked m me to help them get a deal done, which was selling half of the APN outdoor billboard business to a private equity firm. And it was during that period, so this was sort of March to May twenty twelve. that getting myself out of the beer bubble for three months and working around the clock, frankly, getting this big deal done. made me reflect on where the market was at and my experience of Vail and

came quickly the conclusion that I could put my brewery ambitions on hold and try being a supplier. So one of the key learnings out of Vail uh was

Kegs being a barrier to growth. Uh so two th three things happened for me that led to a change in tact, I guess, from a Sydney brewery to, you know, what became Kegstar. One, uh I had moved before the Walanga Brewery I had moved Vale's production, contract production, from AIB to independent distillers, now Azahi back then. And we s effectively, you know, for our size anyway, had unlimited capacity to produce beer. So you know

Tick box. Um tick that first uh one there. Secondly we had raised capital, we had money in the bank. And we're growing. We had six salespeople on the road, two in Sydney, two in Adelaide, two in Melbourne. But we kept running out of kegs. And I'd started with plastic kegs back when uh when you could get them in Australia, manufacture under license in Australia.

And I'd had one explode at a at a yard in Auburn, sitting out empty. You know, uh the problem with the the plastic kegs, it got me started, it was perfect'cause you could buy one pallet, thirty six kegs and you're off and running. You suddenly it got a draft business. uh and they're marketed as recyclable and disposal yada yada yada. We were running around picking up ev kegs from every pub because they're like ringing up going, Well what do we do with these plastic kegs? We're not just gonna

If we throw nine in our skip bin it's full. So we're having to pick them up, take them back to a warehouse we were using and then work out what to do with them and one of them was still pressurized and exploded in the heat and I was like Wow, that was a close call. Thankfully no one was injured. But there had been, you know, two deaths in the US from similar circumstances, so I just vowed never to Yeah, use plastic again from that moment. We had required some kegs from Tillman.

But as we grew and we were growing quite successfully and aggressively Package was easy, production was easy, uh but we kept running out of kegs and even though we thought we were quite getting getting them back, to buy more was$100,000 at a time and probably realistically a five month wait from decision point. Because a fifty litre din keg is not produced all the time at the keg manufacturers. It's a

is not as common as everyone thinks they are here in Australia. So there's a time period to get a slot if you've got the money and then there's probably three months of, you know shipping by the time they think about manufacturing to get them here. So by that stage if you had taps available you've lost them. And secondly, during the whole veil period I'd been to the US each year to C B C and just having a look around.

So I'd seen MicroStar in action. You go into any brewery in the US and out the back there'd be MicroStar I was like, Wow, this is phenomenal.

This is more efficient, it's better for the environment, but why has no one done this in Australia? And I'd asked a lot of people and people I guess a bit like waiting for a a brewers association were also wondering when You know, someone like Microsoft would launch in Australia or with Linfox or with Bevchain or someone like that start a keg pulling business in Australia, but no one was, so

I came out of this deal and thought right, I'm gonna have a crack at this. So literally the deal got signed on a Friday and on the Monday I was on a plane to San Diego for C V C. Did the rounds, looked at breweries and and said to Tillman, Look, I'm gonna have a crack at setting up one of these in Australia and they're like, Great, go for it. We'll support you however you need.

And that was it. So that was all the spare cash I had. Went on a container of kegs, much to my wife's delight. And they landed in November 2012. I emailed every brewer I knew in the country and said I've got 880 kegs.

They're available for rent and uh Stone and Wood came straight back and said we'll take half And uh at that stage did you have logistics and tracking. Nothing. But uh uh well I'd done I like to say one smart thing at least in setting all these businesses up was from day one I made sure all of the kegs were uniquely identified with uh 2D barcodes but also an RFID tag on top.

The technology that's available today it was too expensive back then and uh and and so it was prohibitive. But I knew I needed to be able to track the kigs the f officially the first model for keg style was actually leasing, you know, so Stone and Wood had four hundred and forty bar kegs for three months. We weren't running round picking up the empties, that came stage two, kind of four months later, five months later where I then uh

In a partner well, a partner would be the right expression, with Bevchain. You know, I had moved I knew Bevchain, I was one of the first, if not the other than creatures to move. uh craft logistics into bevchain with Vale. Um so I had that relationship so I asked them to be my partner if you like on on Kegstar, which was storing kegs, delivering them to breweries and picking them up from pubs. So that

That's how we started. Literally eight hundred and eighty kegs. Um, you know, the early names were Stone and Wood and Batlow, you know, Rich Rich Coombs from Batlow Sarder.

And we went from there. So we'd recycle them in eight hundred and eighty. Uh a good mate of mine who I'd met through the professional world with APN, actually Shane, who'd been a shareholder in uh in Vale, um, had been watching this and loved the model. Uh the simplicity and the complexity of at the same time, but you know, reusable assets.

So Shane came in uh as the second shelter of Kegstar and we pushed it further. We started to look at tracking and software and things like that. So we started with an off the shelf uh the only way we could track kegs was an off the shelf tracking uh app if you like and software called Keg ID. Another startup out of Houston um so we started using them. Went to two and a half thousand kegs and after a year of doing this uh you know Shane and I sat down went right this thing's got real legs.

But we also need to have a swing of the bat and do it properly or we need to shut it down because already at that point we had Batlow Sider relying on us a hundred percent for their kidneys. And so whilst we're not sure.

volumes back then with no disrespect to Rich and and Batlow. Um we're at the point where we could have helped them find an alternative and shut the business down. But if we kept going I could see we were going to end up with more and more customers relying on us a hundred percent. And that's uncomfortable unless you know you're going to deliver on the promise.

So that's what we did. So we decided to have a swing of the bat and so this is middle of Two thousand and thirteen we decided to sit down and effectively draft a business plan to take this thing global, but starting with Australia, New Zealand and then From there. And when I say global obviously the US was well serviced, but the UK and Europe wasn't. Um so that was it. We we you know, we've got both Shane and I have got a track record I guess of successly raising capital.

and doing those kind of deals. So we set out to raise capital and we we literally did two capital raises in parallel because I didn't want to have all the eggs in one basket, so A private capital raise, I guess, where you seek out high net worth investors like I had done with Vale. And a trade capital raise. So I had a firm working on individuals. and I ran the trade one and I was just up front with them and said when the money is in the bank that's the b the deal we do.

And so I had a a list of investors to approach and top of that list was Brambles. You know, I knew that they'd been thinking about kegs for ten years but hadn't done anything about it. It was the closest asset that they could find to a pallet in terms of being reusable, global, et cetera. And uh And uh whilst the private raise was going on I approached Brambles and two weeks later I heard memory you dropped an email just to sent off an email.

Tom Gorman's email address. So Bramble's for everyone that's listening was a top twenty at the time, probably still still is. Top twenty Australian ASX listed company, best known for owning uh CHEP the CHEP palette business globally, but had had the recall archive business clean away, had been a big conglomerate at different points of its life. And uh so I just you know, four versions of Tom's email, surely one of them has gotta be right and banged him off an email one Monday night.

He didn't come back personally but his head of mergers and acquisitions did. And we I said, Look, here's the thing. I did go in and meet Tom and Slatko, the global CFO and strategy and started talking and uh as it even though that took six months that was the deal that we ended up getting done and uh so, you know, Kegstar had an injection of cash. Um I mean frankly back then what we needed was cash we didn't need

You know, you look on paper and go, Chip, blah blah blah. We we were s such a small business within Brambles, we were still r doing our own thing. What we needed was cash to buy kegs, build software, invest in people. And we did. And that was first of April twenty fourteen. I've been running ever since I'm not sure. Claire did a story uh when Convoy first got going. That y you you're pretty open that the Brambles move didn't seem to pan out as well as you'd hoped.

Yeah, I wouldn't quite put it like that. Uh look on paper the Brambles deal was fantastic for Brambles itself, for Kegstar and for me. And it genuinely was. Uh you know, we had an injection of cash as equity. We still retained majority control. We had a debt facility from Bramble so we didn't need to involve banks And we were generally left alone. You know, there was there was a board of four, Shane and myself and the global CFO for Bramble, Zlatco and one of their M and A guys.

And we'd meet every couple of months, but other than that we were left to our devices. We could always call them up when we needed to seek their opinion on something. We had a professional board and they were very good like that, as you'd appreciate from a you know, twenty billion dollar company.

But literally we just started running hard and we set a global strategy and uh and stuck to it and that consisted of starting kegstar organically in Australia, then New Zealand, then the UK, then Ireland. And we actually wanted to enter the US through acquisition, but that was our plan. And we pursued it and the only thing that really changed and and where it got harder and which led to me in the end deciding to sort of move on was

uh frankly a change of management at Brambles. So, you know, halfway you know, during the journey and probably twelve months after I sold all of Kegstart to them in December fifteen, uh, they had a complete change of management at the top, which is unheard of for a listed company to have a CEO and a CFO leave at the same time, but it did. And the new CEO and CFO came in with a different strategy, which was effectively to slim Brambles down to almost just Chip Pallet.

So we had you know, Kegstar as a business and had the perfect ride because we had funding. Zlatco as a board member and the and the number two at Bramble is an incredible individual. um who was in some ways the gatekeeper. We were kept under corporate office. We weren't operationally involved in CHEP or anything like that. And when those guys left we got stuck under CHEP UK and there's nothing wrong with CHEP UK. It's a CHEP Europe's a stunning business within the portfolio but

I fought hard for this not to happen but uh it did. You know, you you get involved when you're a hundred percent owned by a business like that, when H R procurement, I T all those departments get involved, not to mention there's a different PowerPoint presentation every fortnight about something. It just gets harder. And a business any business, uh, the size of, you know, Kegstar within a giant like that.

is gonna find it hard to find and maintain oxygen and to keep running at the pace that they have been and that

That was the case with us. Um you know, I and you know, I left in my mind anyway, a and and you can ask Brambles separately, but I wanted to leave on a good note with both my team and with Brambles. And I always said to my team You know, Brambles came in with thirty percent in April fourteen and very quickly went to a hundred percent in December fifteen, and that was on the back of me moving to London to start the UK journey.

And to move and the next project after the UK was the US. And so that's big pockets. You know, you're dealing with bigger breweries there, a big incumbent in the US in Microstar. So you need lots of capital. So that that led to the hundred percent sale. And uh but you sort of I said to the team at that point, you know, I will leave when I can't influence the outcome and the running of the business. Or I'm hating going into work each day. And uh

And so after you know, I did my I was effectively tied in. You can always lead but there's obviously in a deal like that there's always some financial reasons to hang around. So I did my couple of years and uh and stayed on for three, you know, so I gave plenty of notice and at the start of last year where it was getting really hard to get salary reviews, bonus approvals, CapEx.

all you know, all the things that just when you're lost in a big company, um, it was time for me to move on and for new blood to come in. So I gave them plenty of notice and uh So yeah, it's probably unless you're, you know, contracted in for five lears like a lot of these, you know, ABI deals when they've bought up craft breweries, then for me to

Be there a year it was even more, it was probably more like fourteen, fifteen months way beyond what I was contract to do was um for me, I think a g a good thing, good for the business, but it was time, so But then you you left, you saw out your non compete period and it's a pretty

uh ballsy move to go, well I've created this, I see a way it can be done better, but then go head to head with a well resourced um operation that that you know uh y y you started. Because uh and I'm talking about convoy now for for listeners of otherwise. Yeah, convoy with a K. Um Look, ballsy, stupid, emotional, all of all of those things have been discussed. Uh

I mean that wasn't a foregone conclusion. My only priority was to uh I mean the only probably foregone conclusion with me leaving Kig Star was that With someone I would stick some money into brewery so I could be you know, have some fun and learn again and be on that side of the fence. I said to my family and myself that I would have, you know, a few months off post Kegstart and I needed to. I'd been

back and forth to the US and UK every couple of months for three years and that that does wear you out. And so I wanted some time at home and travel with the family. But more importantly well not more importantly, equally important, I needed to clear my head. I didn't I you know, I did rush out of

Vale L thinking I'd do a Sydney Brew straight away and I was lucky that I did that deal to force me to take some time and get out of the bubble and think about what the right thing for me at the time was.

And I wanted to make sure I did that post Kegstar and then, you know, Brambles were able to put me on six months of gardening leave anyway to make sure I didn't do anything, which suited me perfectly because it was uh time to have a rest and time to think and so I came back after a long family holiday and at the start of this year and literally sat down at a desk with a blank sheet of paper in February and I was like, Well, what am I gonna do?

And, you know, do you leave the industry, do you stay in the industry, do you do something new? And you know, the first conclusion was I want to stay in the industry. I'd move from finance and corporates into the beverage industry. Like to think I've become part of it uh and I definitely wanted to stay in it. So then I thought for me uh I've either got to be involved in a larger kind of production business.

Yeah, i.e. a big brewery or something like that, or a couple of breweries together or a distribution business. Or frankly do kegs again. Um and that was the one that took a lot more thought, but it was I think the s one that Suited my skill set. Uh I was pretty proud of what we had done with Kegstar and in some ways a lot of unfinished business. You know, we didn't you know, we set out to make it the global player uh and got halfway there.

And I still think there's a lot of opportunities in the world and you always get the benefit of doing new things when you start with a blank sheet of paper. And so with convoy starting with a blank sheet of paper, you've got new kegs, technology's come down in price, you've got the opportunity to start with new technology and not have to retrofit hundreds of thousands of kegs.

The other thing also which I I realised is that we had spent in the early years, the frankly the first three years of Kegstar creating a segment which didn't exist. And so the education to breweries and warehouses and the logistics involved in tracking kegs, scanning kegs and pubs and all that. was hard and you know, almost didn't work. And so, you know, you can start with a blank sheet of paper now and go, right, how do we do this better? How do we simplify things?

In terms of building the segment, we'd spent a lot of time on trade fairs, advertising, you know, we were at every event doing all those things, and that's fine, but that takes up people's time and huge costs. So when the guys and I sat down to design convoys like we realised we actually don't need to do any of that. Everyone knows what

keg pulling is about. So how do we do it better rather than how do we spend more money on trade fairs and frankly we'll never outspend Brambles and Chip and Kegstar. So What can we do better? Um, what can we make simpler? And then it's just run hard and uh so it is hard. I mean we're up against A formidable competitor and so far which was not the plan but you were in the office today, but so far everyone in the team has come from Kegstar. Um

And so emotionally that's hard as well,'cause we've all been part of this other wonderful culture that we all built together and a great market position. And now we're Going head to head with it. But that's fine. At the end of the day business is business. And I always use and I hope they don't mind me mentioning this, but when I'm talking to my team about that fact that we're going head to head with our old business, I remind everyone that

Kickstarters have furniture been on its own for three, four, five years in the market. And the best example I always give is Bintani and Cryamalt. Who from my point of view anyway, uh have been amazing for the industry. Very fierce competitors. But also acting in the best interest of the industry. And our mates industry mates our sponsor

Who are industry mates and can have a beer at the end of the day as well. And I I say to the team, Well look, these guys have done it successfully, uh, for so long. Why can't Convoy and Kegstar act like that as well? So So let's uh talk about convoy and What i y what can you do differently apart from having you would uh kegs um technology prices come down?

what can you do differently or better that you saw that there was an opportunity in the market and why hasn't somebody else come in to the market before you? Well they were looking so that was also one of the catalysts. So when I was soul searching or if you like or whiteboarding with myself for days on end. Uh you know, there I knew a couple of the US players were having a sniff around Australia and were also looking to poach some of the Kegstar Sydney team.

So it was a foregone conclusion uh and Brambles know this as well, that it was a foregone conclusion that there was going to be a second player in the market and so a lot of people won't realise this that you know we're not upsetting this wonderful market position that Kegstar had.

Every strategy meeting I had at Kegstar was like when I was running it, someone's coming guys. Just remember that we're not gonna be alone forever. So we always we always remember that. And let's learn from looking at the check global monopoly where others have come in, we need to keep running far. So isn't that isn't that even more terrifying as a as a smaller upstart player? You you've already got one major competitor. Um

It's terrifying but it's also thrilling at the same time I guess. I mean you know, we we're all backing ourselves to succeed. Um the team that we've got have all been doing this for a long time, you know, basically since the start of Kingstar. Uh certainly in terms of the case of four or five five of us. Um And so there is a lot of deep skills and relationship and knowledge there that you just don't pick up. Um and if if you're coming out of CHEP in the Kegstar

Yes, you know, asset pooling, but you know, the the brewing industry and the personalities and the supply chains are all quite intricate and uh in unique. So understanding that um is great. Um I guess backing up your promise. So when we say we'll do something for you doing it. We like to think that certain brewers will respect those of us that were there in the early days who you know, achieve that. Um so to answer your question, you know, what can we do? We can simplify.

Yeah, we we frankly, um, we can't compete on price and we don't want to because against a global behemoth like that they can Cripple you um if they want to you know compete on price. So we need to compete on uh you know technology, service.

Frankly being lean, we're pretty lean you were in the office today and said we're gonna have to move soon. Oh no we're not. We've ch purposely chosen this office so that we can only have so many people and that's it. You know, we're not spending much money on events and advertising and that. We want to for us anyway, have a cheaper product um than we think we would if we're a big massive business and we want to win on customer service delivering

Yes, we'll have the newest Kegfleet in the market. Um yes we'll have some great new technology that I wish I had six months ago. Sorry, six years ago. Um Can other people compete on price and all that? Yes. So we just have to out compete. Um and look, it's early days. We've come into the market. We've done everything we wanted to do. We literally sat down first of July, a couple of us to start with a blank sheet of paper.

We uh had a three month goal to be up and running one October. We hit that. We've started with, you know, close to forty thousand kegs versus kegs general started with eight hundred and eighty. We've won, you know, close to thirty breweries across in the first couple of months. Um but it will get harder and that's fine and ultimately, frankly, the market's winning'cause suddenly there's competition and

uh, you know, our old business is competing harder and the industry will win from two of us being in the market. Um which I think is good. Uh you know, price frankly got too high at Kegstar in the Australian market and uh Yeah, we just We can't second guess everything. We've just got to put our our offering out there, put out our ability to deliver and uh and back it and

Some breweries will appreciate that and and others will only be price driven or, you know, the balance sheet that a big company can bring or incentives or whatever. So we'll run our own race. It's definitely room in Australia to be a two player market. Um so what the you know, equilibrium market share will be down the track. I don't know. Um

You know, let's have a podcast in three years and we'll do a uh scorecard track. Trust me we will. We absolutely will. Um Nell, just something I bef before we move to your brewing venture, um it was interesting to hear you talk about um you negotiated certain things with with with uh Brambles when they invested, you end up getting lost with HR and all of the big I is that something that as we see breweries being folded into into into the bigger breweries?

that even if the quality of the beer doesn't suffer, that that's things that can impact their business in a way that they don't expect or is there anything that they can learn from your experience? Uh look I think it definitely happened. Uh I'm not close enough to all the deals. Uh

I th look it can happen is the simple answer. It's d it's not it's not a brewing industry thing, it's a it's just a big company versus little company thing. Uh I've watched the whole ABI buy up around the world and been close to three, four of those breweries that have sold into them. I was a investor in and board member of Right Wine which just sold to C U B recently so I've been through that process.

with A B I and C U B and frankly I think they've actually done a good job of it in terms that they've given those from s and this is me my helicopter view, um they've given the brews the what they need without suffocating them with what they don't need. And I mean you get a better answer those that have sold, you know, two, three years ago or Jasper at Camden. But I think if you none of them want to talk though, that's a problem. They're still within that five year period.

Well I'm not talking on behalf of all of them. I know a lot of them very well, but I look I I've watched from afar. And I've actually been um you know reas uh with my business hat on, I've been reasonably impressed with how ABI has handled that. Time will tell. Um but they've certainly don't seem to have

suffocated the investee companies that they've acquired and let them run their own race. And I think that I think that's a learning where I think a lot of people have expected and in some ways when I watched Rena Wright go through it as well. That day one suddenly you know the cavalry rock in and tell you what to do and how to run it and let you know, we'll do this. But quite the opposite, it's like right, w what do you guys this is still your business, what do you need to grow?

We've got the whole of our organisation at your disposal, so tell us what you need and we'll we'll back you if it makes sense. So I think time will tell if that works, but I think uh Yeah, I'm not close enough to the other majors and what they've done, but watching all of those, um you know, with Ca Jasper at Camden and the Pirates and Four Pines and and Wright, um I give them credit as an organisation, um A B I and C U B the way they've pulled that off but time will tell the scorecard I guess.

That can be another podcast in three years.

uh you know flow down to C U B through their through their ownership and association. So they do seem to have learned uh lessons w which I guess is how big companies become bigger companies. I guess and Goose Isle, I mean that that was almost a trial in the early days, wasn't it, when that sort of wave started. Um I remember going through that when we were looking at brewing equipment for Vale and uh Bruce Peach and I had a

Brewery that we're sitting in now, um w with a couple of uh preliminary guests in the background. But So we're sitting in the uh in the old factory that is now White Bay Brewing. Oh, it white bait beer co I should say. Good pickup. Um self auditing, well done. D talk to us about how d how did this come about? Yeah. And look to be clear, this is not mine. I'm I'm one of many in this, one of one of four that kicked it off. Uh

I look since Vail I've always had a desire to get back involved somehow. You take a lot of learnings out of that. Also out of Kigstar and just watching the industry for a time. And for me it was important to work with the right team and know that You know, if I'm s if I choose to stay in the keg world This isn't this is not my business, I'm not the face of this. We we need a team and un and others that will be do that but I can sort of help as a investor and Board member.

Also have a bit of fun. Like uh you know, the the breweries of our industry are the ones playing the game. Um you know, my Kegstar and now convoy uh enablers if you like. Um but, you know, as you know and you comment and observe the industry, it's it's the The breweries, the breweries and the teams and the people behind it that are playing the game and ultimately putting

booze or beer I should say in people's mouths and I think that's the fun part of it. And uh, you know, we're in an area uh where I didn't grow up as you know,'cause we talked about Adelaide, but my wife's Born and bred. In fact, her first home was on the street that we're on in Mansfield Street. So we're in the city. Her grandmother was. Her brothers run every pub in Baumain. Uh

My business partner, uh one of the business partners. Uh condos run just about every and pub and turned around in Baumane. So look we're we're sitting here on the Bauman Peninsula. uh which a lot of people will know of or have been to pubs in the area. Um we've been keeping an eye out on one particular building or a block I should say for something to come up at some point, whether it was

Two years ago or ten years from now we just knew something would come up. And when I say we originally Tim Tim Condon and I, White Bay is a body of water that surrounds one side of the Bauman Peninsula, my house

looks down on White Bay. Those of you that have been across the Anzac Bridge will be familiar with the power station on the right as you come off and and that is the the the point of White Bay and we've got an old steelworks which then became a a stage set manufacturing site uh for musicals and movies and T V shows.

That became available after thirty years. And so it's a pretty old building. It's currently pretty noisy'cause we've got a few things to fix. There's a fan in the background that people might be hearing a a whirring noise, but that's okay. It's all part of O C D doesn't cope very well with it. Uh And so yeah, it's a beautiful old building uh that we are uh you know currently in the process of commissioning a eighteen heck three vessel premier stainless brew house.

Thank you for home checking another uh advertiser. Oh there we go. Of course not. Um So look when when the project started it was Condo and I and Tim Condon is better known for owning a few pubs around Balmain and being a massive supporter of craft brewers. Uh and those pubs have been the Riverview, the East Village. Uh and now the cricket as arms. None of whom are sponsors, but we'll work on that.

Uh and just keeping an eye off the right site and uh but you know, condos got pubs. I had Kegstar now have convoy to to keep ticking along and so, you know, we needed others. Um and so, you know, w we needed someone to look after the sales and brand side of things and we clearly needed a brilliant because your first venture into BR it was Two business people going in and going into it. This time You've almost got a dream team of you've got yourself as the the the the finance business

uh person. You've got Tim Condon who's the hospitality hotel side. You've got Tim Fishwick who is, you know, a a very in you know an incredibly experienced uh sales um you know Not just turning up at hotels and selling kegs, but he's a brand building sales guy. And you've also got a uh a a Cracker Jack brewing team in Dennis uh the boy and his uh partner Jet. So we just got lucky in that, you know, we Condo and Fish and I have been mate.

along with Ross Durisich since two thousand and ten when we were all fish were selling little creatures uh to the Review Hotel. I was selling Baalal and Roscoe was selling Stone and Wood and it was an era when Condo had just started to support All the craft brews and we all got to know each other then, uh and obviously all been quite close since and uh

You know when Fisher's time at Bolter was coming up and he had other breweries chasing him and whatnot, it was when he said, Look, I'm not gonna do that, guys, but I'd like to do my own thing we were like, Well We've been thinking about doing our own thing as well, so when you're ready, shout. And uh and so that happened, you know, and Fisher's obviously been an uh an amazing contributor to the Bolter story with the team up there, which has been a phenomenal ride.

What we didn't have was an amazing brew team. Um so once we uh you know, had found uh well, ordered frankly, we ordered a brew house for a different site and then found this site so we had to quickly change tact. But we were asking around, you know, mates of ours that were brewers who Who should we be talking to? Um, you know, and we're measuring this on quality and on all the ingredients in being a successful brewer and we had three people. I had in particular I had three

Brewers that I respect say to me, What about Dennis? I was like I knew of Dennis that I'd met him once but had no idea where he was. I knew that he was no longer at at Modus and uh And this was actually at C B C uh so we're in Denver this year. We'd ordered a premier brewhouse and we we spec'd it up so it's probably all wrong. Dennis will be uh correcting things'cause three idiots that don't know how to brew specked up a brewhouse.

And uh but anyway we tracked down Dennis what we didn't know that um was that Dennis's partner Jess is also a brewer, uh, from Pirate Life and then Four Pines and both of them had left and they were doing a effectively a nine month sabbatical bit of wine making in New Zealand and then backpacking round. So the timeline's aligned. They were coming back in September, which is about the time we thought we might have a brew house or certainly a site.

ready to start working on. Uh and it w just it was just an amazing stroke of I mean I don't say luck'cause you make your own luck but Timelines aligned where those guys were coming back from backpacking around the US. We found this amazing we're literally about to sign a lease in Lycart when we found this amazing old building in our backyard and so we pounced on it and um and suddenly we had a brewing team, so Dennis and Jess came as a package deal.

They've moved into Baumain. Fisher's about to move to Ba Main. I live in Baumane. Conor's got a pub in Baalmain, so um we're happy. So we're now sitting here.

Matt and I surrounded by stainless steel which is hopefully gonna be up and running in brewing in January. But so w was putting that team together a little bit of serendipity that you had such a strong team or is this One of the things that you've learned through your experience is that I think it's learning through experience which is I mean clearly Vale Ale uh I was in everything.

Just p pushing it along, I was I was a f um not that I know anything about brewing, but until Jeff Wright came along I was the production guy, I was the brand guy, I was hospitality, finance everything. I quickly learned in Kegs or actually when I went into Kegstjar and started employing people I knew

that I couldn't be that, otherwise it would fail, particularly if you're trying to be in other countries. So from day one, uh, you know, when Joe Cook started, I was like, right, you're getting out in front of everyone. Which was a dream for him as a young guy coming in and saying you've got to go. No, he's uh he's with Riot still with Riot.

And so no, for me it was a conscious decision and I actually, you know, uh sought a people advisor to come in and help me train myself if to to let to let go and also build a team and a culture and and a high performance kind of environment. And so I learned that like to think it worked and so definitely I thought it was very important here, which is uh not trying to do too much and actually playing to people's strength. So I think

I think only we can mock up muck up this project. You know, we've brought together the right skill sets. We've got a lot of friends and family that have thrown in money. So it's well capitalised. We've got a great space not a small venture. Uh we're working on the brand and finessing and finalising that, but we're pretty happy with h where that's happening. So

But it's a very, very competitive space out there. Um you know, and to be clear with this venture, uh, you know, the Dennis and Fish are the front of this. You know, this is this is their baby. Dennis on the you know, those those guys are partners in crime and obviously divide and conquer though. Um and Condor and I and frankly others that are investors will support in the background. Uh

But you know, we want this to be a community brew and everyone says but we literally mean it'cause we've grown up in this community and uh, you know, we've been part of starting a charity. Condo and I starting a charity here and We know it and we love it. We found a space. Um, you know, we in in an ideal world this is a venture forever. Um I'm not one that will ever say never because when people do I I just think

That's wrong. I know. Well y y y you you've got a team, a high performance team. It it's a it's a beautiful brewery that is built to scale. Um and you you've you've said um well you you're an ambitious person, you've also said that you need, you know, that million plus litres to be um sustainable if you're gonna be a uh uh player. Um Not not to be a p I think if you want to be a national or semi national, then I think you need a million litres. If if you're about

an amazing brew pub or tap room in your home state that's an equally successful business model. Um but we j we just look we're playing to what we think our strengths are and our interests. And we still think there's room for more national brands in the market. There is a huge amount of

competition in the old class it is three hundred to nine hundred thousand litre space. Some are production brews, some are brew pubs who arguably aren't competing, they're doing their own thing. Some are hybrids, some are contract. Um you know, there's entrants that have come into the market in the last four years and we know those names, um, who have done stunningly well through the right mixture of different skill sets, brand, quality beer, the right cost of production.

etcetera, etcetera. So you know, time will tell if we can be as successful as some of the new entrants that have come in. Either way we're gonna have fun and we're convinced we can certainly be a uh sustainable part of the Sydney beer scene. with a very hyperlocal focus on our peninsula we're calling home. But I still think there's a big opportunity in Sydney as well to

Be another prominent brewery on the landscape. Um you know, we liken the look and feel of our building to kinda mountain goat. That's almost our venue inspiration. Big old warehouse with red brick walls and high ceilings and a mixture of hospitality that's you know, not competing with pubs, it just coexists and

open a few hours a week and a you know, add production brewery to boot. So, you know, we've got our brewery, we've got plenty of room to add tanks. We'll have a Cody canning line right arriving in the new year.

And then the rest is up to Dennison Fish. So But y y you've said um that ideally this is something that will stay in the family, um and uh without saying never, but at the same time

one of the challenges we've seen brewers that have scaled very quickly is that they run out of runway. You know, that they need to keep pumping money in to keep that growth going and then they run out of um finance sources or just the the the the risk and the challenge and the uh you know all all of that catches up to them and they do succumb to to an offer.

When you say that you're not looking at um you know, it i it's not the intention to to build and sell, are are you putting things in place or have you got a a strategy to try and avoid that situation where it becomes the have to sell? Uh good question. So look there's no mechanism in place to prevent it. I will Look, I I don't believe in never saying you'll sell but we have an emotional attachment to this site and this area uh and what we're building here.

I think the fork in the road that breweries get to, uh, where you need to, you know, go from a two and a half million litre capacity to ten I'm confident if we hit that that I can get the capital needed to take it to the next level. So I don't think

Uh which is not to say others couldn't, um but in the absence I also don't think there's gonna be a lot of deals going forward. You know, I think uh I think if you're starting a business now for a quick flick, you're in for a rude surprise in the beer market because The majors have done a good job of picking who they want. And if you look at the frankly, if you look at the C U B Azahi portfolio and craft, if that goes through next year, it's a pretty amazing portfolio they've got. Um

So we've been quite you know, we've we've had friends and family invest in this with us and we I've been brutally honest, probably too honest than my partners would have liked, which is if you think this is a quick build and sell, do not invest. Um because We want this to be a community brewery forever, which is not to say we will never consider something because if you've got other shareholders I think you're

Fiduciary responsibility is to consider that, but if it's a case of keeping on funding it, then I'm confident we can overcome those hurdles. But that starts with having a sustainable business that produces cash flow. If you're funding to cover

operating losses, it's a different story. But, you know, look we love we're we're very close obviously to the guys at Stone and Wood and we've watched that whole journey as mates, as competitors at Vale Ale and when Tim was at Creatures, Condo is a customer of theirs from day one. obviously as you know I went through the C B I A to IBA journey with um with the guys as well. So, you know, we've watched that and uh you know, y time and place but they've been a phenomenal team.

And have built an incredible business that is sustainable, you know. I'm sure they get a different offer every week and and uh and they would but they don't need to because they've built an amazing team.

They give back to the community, they give back to their shareholders and and that can go on forever. Um you know, Cooper's been around for forever as well. So I think there's plenty of examples. And the beer landscape's changing. So I actually You know, and I hope I look forward twenty years ago. Who are the breweries that are gonna be um you know, those breweries coming through? And there's been such an influx, of course, in the last five to ten years.

But I still think there's room if you can if you can afford to take a twenty year view and be patient. And so we've also tried to fund this and structure it and have the right people in who are coming in with that. thought process as well. And who genuinely want to pop in on the way home for a beer and then head on to the pub for dinner or whatever, you know. There's no restaurant or anything like here. It's you know. So, um

Look, who knows, our priority at the moment is getting up and running but we've certainly gone in with the longer term plan because frankly any other plan I think is doomed to fail. So uh

Again, three years from now we'll do another podcast. Oh absolutely. I'm I'm looking forward and I I've just tried uh Dennis's Australian it's a cloudy Australian pal a little. It's uh yeah, I w I wouldn't uh For for for listeners who are at at home, you know, I wouldn't describe it as uh stone and wood, Pacific Alish, but it i it's it's a it's a cloudy Australian very much on trend, very easy to drink, very nice, light and refreshing.

Uh we should say thanks to the guys at Batch for uh lending Dennis their uh pilot brute. And he's looking forward to doing some uh lagers as well, he said. So He is. Uh we've been we've been having a lot of lager debates. Um look I mean w as soon as the venue's open we can have plenty of tap

here in Jess and that's why we've got two eighteen hundred eighteen hectanks sitting over there. They can do what they want, you know, for the bar, but obviously to sell in the market and frankly for fish to sell we need uh, you know, the right portfolio. So I think look, I think without promising

We'll end up with a core range of four or five. I'm not sure exactly what the last three will be. Uh it's up to Dennis and Fish to work that out. But um yeah, we just want to location you do know what the first five will be?

Sorry, if if there's five you've mentioned two already. So I've got a rough idea what the first two will be. But look until we're up and running here and pump out some trial brews, they'll they'll change. Obviously Dennis and Jess have done a huge amount of brewing and we're all In some ways that's also the problem that the four founders have got very firm views and often very different views on what's going to work in the market, depending on what hat we're wearing. But um

It's gonna be pretty exciting. You know, how how important is it to have a little bit of tension between the the people and and stress test ideas? We're all getting to know each I mean, some of us have known each other for ages and and but in different ways. So being mates across the bar or selling and you know, being a supplier customer relationship is very different to suddenly all being four

owners slash investors slash board members slash in charge of a strategic direction. So yeah, we're having plenty of blues around Do you have beer names or style names? What's the brand should we look like? I mean the first debate was without going into it.

Is it White Bay or something else? But and I I was that was one of the last quick questions I was going to come to is you like a place name, you know, McLaren Vale, Vale Ale. Um White Bay is i is a place. How important do you think it is to have that um geographic touch point in i in a brain.

Well, I was dead against white bay at start. Really, was that? I was. Well, uh'cause after Vale, frankly, I said I won't do that again because it's hard. Um Oh, why why why is that?'Cause you y you actually do have a brewery here, so you've got a white bay brewery. No, no, so you you're right. So that's uh

Correct. So that was an easier thing to make. Look I I uh I've just watched, you know, and I and I think for me, you know, Vale roll off the tongue one day and that was it. It was kinda not a lot of second thoughts about it and off you went. With this we've put a lot more thinking into it. And uh you know we had an alternative brand which was not regionally based and uh and look we we love both and you know w it was never gonna be Baumane Brewing'cause that exists.

Uh White Bay, you know, for those that don't know there is a White Bay power station that is going to be developed into something amazing and that might be five years away, it could be twenty when the state government does it. And I think that'll bring a ferry wharf, it'll put White Bay on the map. Um and we thought we would get in uh we'll get in early and uh and have some

I don't know. Provenance around that, round the Bauman Peninsula. If some ways it's we we kinda look at it and go, It's the cool unknown part of Baumain. You know, the Baumai Peninsula is made up of four suburbs Baumane, Baumane East, Birchgrove. And Roselle. Uh and White Bay is a kind of area that's not technically a suburb. It's an area where where it's bordered by the water. You certainly can't be accused of trying to cash in on

No, no, exactly. M C from Pirate Life who was very, very, very vocal after uh many, many beers and wines last night when we were well not last night, one night when we were all debating it with him. Uh, you know, he was very firmly in the White Bay camp and uh I was very firmly in the non white bay camp and and the other three were probably somewhere in the middle. So um anyway, we are where we are. We've chosen w we're we're pretty happy with how it's ended up and uh

also think it's how you execute on that. You can uh i as you say, we actually we have rights, you know, we are in White Bay.

We're the only brewery on the peninsula. We're gonna own you know, we're gonna own it in the sense of wanting to make it our own and give back to the community and you know, Dennis and Jess have got a fantastic idea to have high viz made up and you know, White Bay Peace Corps or whatever it is and walk around once a fortnight and pick up rubbish, you know, so the community will see that happen and and invest back into it and so we've got

We've all made lots of notes of things we've seen other breweries do well, whether it's a little bit more than a little bit. be in, you know, sustainability, B Corp, you know, giving back to the environment, branding, production, whatever. We'd you know, we've sort of just been students, if you like, over the last couple of years and we've all got our things idea.

First priority is just to get up and running and then but then we will put a sophisticated view on how we make this better and how we you know, we treat the industry all as mates. You know, I've been a key supplier to it. Fish and Dennis and Condo and Jess have been massive personalities within it and we all now need to coexist in it with uh peers that have got other breweries and bars and pubs and all that and we just wanna be a contributor to the and keep the

J just going back to that question, do you think it is important? Do you think it is valuable having a place associated with it?'Cause I I I get a real sense of that there was a reluctance for you to or that there you Might have felt a little bit burned by the Vale Ale experience and and and what that opened up um what what sort of criticisms that potentially opened up? I just think um I look I'm also conscious that I'm a lot older than when I started, you know, Vail and uh

Well, generations change, I guess, about what's a cool brand and what's not. Um I I wouldn't say I'm burned by the Vale and I'm very pleased to see that, you know, Angelo that owns Bickford's, you know, they're gonna the that own it now are gonna put a brew house into McLarenvale and And do this and that. So I think it's in the right hands and it's fantastic what they'll do with it. And so that brand will you know or he's having a second life, which is fantastic to see.

I just know it's a bit harder, um, and particularly White Bay is unknown. Um that w you know, over in the early days would be what what is Bi White Bay, where is White Bay versus Kirkguard brewing is oh, you know, our founder Matt's uh incredible brewer and uh and that's a simple jump and there's no further questions. Whereas I think when you've got a uh

a regional name that's not obvious. Um it's harder. But having said that just do one of my drive everybody over over the over the bridge. I mean it it'll be an expensive marketing strategy but it'll be effective.

Look i o on the flip side, uh you know, one of my favorite brands but brewery, you know, there's two breweries in the world is Camden Town, you know, and Jasper did an incredible job of You know, how cool that was under the arches in Camden where they started and then the massive new route, but what they did with the brands.

to compete against macro European lagers and find their space in the London market was phenomenal. So I think we've also taken a a bit of a learning out of that that, you know Camden Town and Kentridge Town where where they started is not actually dissimilar to where we are, an old industrial section of Sydney, in now a gentrified area, but we're opposite a power station that's derelict and across the road from

cement and sugar silos that are sitting there with ships coming in every day still. So I think we've got a opportunity to create something unique here. And I also think whatever we had called it. if you execute right then you can educate the market about it. So but it th the question you asked was is there debate and tension and is that good and for us it has absolutely has been and I'm sure we're gonna have a

Another one tomorrow when we meet at seven A. M. to look at preliminary can designs. There'll be four different views and people throwing shit and uh Eventually we'll get there and we'll all love it. So So I I guess the other thing that sort of folds into the name is independence. Like how important you know, i is that something that you are going to

make uh a an issue of with the brand or with the business. Um you know, are are you members of the independent uh Brewers Association? Yes is the short answer. I mean I have I have nothing against uh all of the breweries that have sold into a larger corporation. And often I think that's made complete sense for the time and place that they're in or they've got investors that need a return or whatnot. And and I still drink their beers and call them all mates and I think that's incredible.

But we are. The fact is we are an independent brewery. We're in a in a community of Baumane which is quite uh You could say artsy, it's it's gentrified, um, but uh you know, there's plenty of particular people that are into food and culture and travel and art and whatnot. Um and I think the people will appreciate that there's locals that own it and that it's not a a big company that swooped in just uh

Yeah, put it in. I g probably two examples of in this area which has nothing to do with beer, but you know, Starbucks tried to come into Ba Main, in fact did, and got run out of town. Um, locals wouldn't go there, hated it. Or we all like our independent um You know, espresso and cafes in Bauman.

Bunnings is trying to go in not far from here and has been in the courts for years trying to get it finally approved and uh so I think it is quite a uh you know, it's a big pub community as well and each pub is an independent There aren't too many suburbs that have that density of pubs when we took it. No, you only saw a few of them. There's there's I don't even know the number, but there's heaps. Uh a couple of shot down but there's still

one of the largest, you know, regions of pubs per capita. So um so look we look we will be um proudly independent. Um you know, we'll had this chat not long ago. We'll focus on that. We're gonna focus on sustainability and the community and all those things. Um

First and foremost we've got to get brewing and denison just to produce some good product. Look, uh Adam, I I I said at the very beginning there was there was a whole lot that uh I wanted to skim over some of the early part, but the the the the veil and the keg star really set the scene for for the second part of the interview, but uh I I could

talk for hours. But what we might do is uh sort of park it for here, let uh convoy uh really get out and uh let White Bay launch and then uh come back and have have a chat and sort of see how it's all going um and d discuss a little bit further and what you've learned from this But congratulations on on everything you've achieved uh in in industry and good luck both with Convoy and White Bay.

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