119 - Pirate Life's Michael Cameron

And thanks to CryMalt, supplying premium malt for 25 years, this is Radio Bruise News. My name is Matt Kierkegaard, founder of Australian Bruce News, and as ever, I'm joined by my good friend, colleague and all-around good beer guy Pete Mitchum. Pete, welcome back. G'day Matt, good to be back. G'day listeners, good to have you back regularly and all that. Yeah. Oh well Three in a row. If this if this gets a three is three time a charm, third time's a charm or is two times.

Well we're we're we're yeah well that's the thing. R recording isn't doing as we uh know in the past. But anyway, Pete, uh welcome back. Mate, how how's your week been? Yeah, not too bad. Had a nice little trip. First week of uh school holidays for those of the uh parent variety uh listening out there. So you know it's always

a challenge to find something interesting and different to do. And I was lucky enough the week before up at the uh very successful this year, uh Bendigo Craft Beer Festival to um have a beer with Ben and Aaron from What's River Brewing. And they invited me uh Up to a very special honour, uh and a bruise news first, I think. Um would you come up and spin our wheel of hot? Yeah, exactly. Um the Gabs B.

For this year they decided uh what do we do? We'll you know, do something a little bit different. So they've decided uh to make a pale ale, but then they um contacted Bintani, who are their their hop supplier, and got a list of sort of all the available hops. That they could get, you know, in time, round about thirty or so. So what they've done is they've um Aaron went on eBay and and got a a a prize spinning wheel, which he then converted into a a a hop wheel.

So the Hop Wheel IPA will be the Watts River Brewing Gabs beer this year and uh I was honoured to be asked to come up and spin the wheel. And pick the um so the a couple of Whirlpool hops and a couple of uh dry hop additions. And uh so it's come up with something quite interesting. I think it'll be it'll be really nice. Um one from the from the Technang family called Mandarina Bavaria. A Bravo. And what else do we get? Um I'll have to go back. Anyway, I'll we'll we'll link to the um

the stunningly high quality produced video that we made while we were doing it. Look it was a lot of fun. And and interestingly, Matt, a lot of um feedback from um punters and brewers. You know, what a great idea, what a great way to sort of make a beer. I felt a little bit uh I guess um Uh, like a a fraud, thinking, Oh well yeah. So so designing beer, uh designing a great um new beer comes down to me spinning a wheel and seeing what it lands on. But you know.

It was all done. Bit of a a hop's lucky dip, sounds like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well we also, uh interestingly, the boys in terms of, you know, working out the molt, um, had uh a series of SRM numbers from uh I think about ten to round to nineteen. And so we also spun for for the colour. As well. So so now they've got to g build the malt bill to to achieve uh I think it was a it ended up on a sixteen SRM uh on the colour scale, so Look at look after it again.

Okay. Well I still haven't tried any of the uh Watch River beers, so uh I'm very keen to be down there. Um a core range. They've got a a blonde, an IPA and a stout in their core range. Um but I was lucky enough to obviously being at the the sort of the gateway to the Arrow Valley down there um in Healsville for those who know. Um and the boys we've spoken to them here on Bruce News X White Rabbit. And they've actually set up digs in what White Rabbit had as the sort of a a barrel storage.

So of course being at the foothills of the or you know, the gateway to the the Yaravelli, the boys have got access to some um interesting barrels and they've done a you know, I guess like a car park series where they um a bit of spontaneous fermentation out in the car park and they picked up a beautiful, very interesting kind of

Brett note and we tasted it just just from the barrel so it's, you know, uncarbonated at this point. But a really clean, nice I guess what Ben Krauss is achieving with the Furda with his Brett series through Mayday Hill's label, which is it's not all about being you know, so barnyard you can kinda toast the dags. But Just that essence of Just a wild yeast doing its thing in a very clean and and almost, you know, uncontrolled controlled way, if that makes sense.

Oh, that sounds interesting. Yeah. I know we have had them on the show, but that's about all I know about what those guys are doing, so it'll certainly be good to try their beers down at Cabs. Look forward to it Now it did say that you were lucky enough to get to watch River and do that.

Uh it wasn't all a week of good luck for you uh last week? Well it probably was, I guess possibly you know, dodge a tsunami bullet, I guess. I was um I was at the airport. I was actually at gate five in Terminal Three at uh Melbourne Airport in the Virgin Lounge waiting for um my flight.

going in and out of Cool and Gatta for the day. So unfortunately I wasn't able to get up to Byron for the AIBA collab brew, the four way brew. But we should say that the AIBA each year do a collaboration beer between the The champion breweries. Yep. Yeah, so the large, medium and small, and this year for the first time the gypsy. Brewer because it's the first time a gypsy brewer has been eligible for the trophy and won it. So that was uh Hendo from Brewcult.

Pirate Light Red from Pirate Life made it over, as did uh Danielle from Two Birds and the boys obviously at Stone and Wood, which uh um sadly the brewery tour that I would have made it up there for was cancelled because the Muillamba brewery was inundated.

And uh evacuated and then Did it actually flood? Uh well the they sent everybody home. They sent you know, closed it all up because the the surrounding area was inundated. Um but I don't know that the the brewery itself I don't know, maybe the brewery floor might have got a bit of a a clean out. Just a bit of an unplanned hosing.

Don't know. And then the brew down at Byron, they they did get the the brew underway and then um Cool and Gadda Airport opened again, but unfortunately the Pacific Highway was closed. So And as I say, look. You know, we've had uh people suffer a far worse fate than um, you know, not being able to get up to a brewery to uh watch a a brew. So while it was disappointing, you know, certainly not the worst thing that could happen.

Oh well it uh yeah it was pretty wet up here. I I I can say that much, but you know, then again it's uh people have had it much worse in in in other places. So uh but an anything else that's uh happened any any other news across your bowels? No, that's about it.

No, my bows have been fairly clear of news, thank you. But w there was this week a um a bit of news on the website. Um Firstly, the uh Hawker's brewery, Mazin Haja, um has employed the first brewer in Australia on a four hundred five seven visa. Yeah, Dan was he's been there on a whatever the particular work visa is and his skill level and that sort of thing, obviously coming from the States where things are are far more advanced, far more brewers, um and I guess, you know

the scale of brewing over there is way ahead of Australia obviously in proportion to our small population and and large brown land. And so it was a case of applying for a four five seven visa to continue his his sort of stay, which has proved to be successful. So it's it's possibly setting a a precedent. It's certainly

um brought a lot of comments, both positive and negative. And I think the best thing about it is that, you know, as Mazden is wont to do, it starts the conversation. Because I think a lot of people don't realise that it's not taking jobs away from people who are already here. Um because the reality is

the skills aren't here. Yeah. And and th that that's an issue that we're looking at in our uh Crime Molt Trade Hub on the Wednesday of Gabs is one of the sessions we're looking at. Wednesday good good. Sorry?

Yeah. Yeah, Gabs doesn't quite go for a week just yet. Sorry, good beer week. But skills in the brewing industry is one of the issues that we're looking at. We're going to be speaking to guys from the Institute of Beer who are doing a TAFE course in New South Wales. We're looking at getting people from the I B D

We're hoping to have Chris who's a regular listener from the C BIA and find out what they're doing and uh you know probably even uh somebody from uh Federation University to talk about skills there and uh looking at the various elements of the skill shortage in the brewing industry because, you know, for a long time brewing Brewing skills wasn't really a focus. They were the big houses had their own development programmes.

their staff tended to go through the Institute of Brewing and Distilling, there were some brewing courses around, but as we've seen a rapid expansion in the number of breweries and therefore the number of brewing jobs, trying to get those skills and whilst a lot of home brewers have uh gone from the home brewing world into opening their own brewery. when you are an employer or a a brewery looking for, you know, not just

enthusiastic and knowledgeable staff, but actually trained and skilled staff, that's where there's a bit of a a disconnect. So, you know, some of the bigger craft breweries like Stone and Wood um have an intern programme and uh you know staff development program and we are seeing Uh some but ultimately there aren't enough people out there with the brewing skills that a lot of uh the the bigger um craft breweries want. That's right. And yeah, and not even close.

Um but the other thing too I think that's probably worth pointing out at this point, Matt, to our listeners who who may still be a bit a bit confused about how th this particular four five seven uh issue has come about and how it's worked and and why it's been granted, is that it's not just, you know, we talk about homebrewers.

In a lot of respects, yeah, it's just scaling up. And no offense to to brewers, but you know, st starting at the bottom, working your way up, it it that that's not a skill. You know, you you're learning those skills, but then you get to a certain point where it's all about it's it's okay and safety, it's it's handling hazardous hazardous materials, it's dealing with trade waste. It's uh HR, it's um, you know, raw materials, logistics, all those sorts of things.

So the guys who have done that in the big breweries in or you know, even the smaller breweries in the States, um, that those are the skills that they're bringing here that hopefully then the guys who are in at the entry level now will have somebody to actually teach them that.

Uh'cause'cause it's gonna take a while. It's not the government's not gonna make wave a magic wand and say, you know what, let's let's uh develop a a course at each of the, you know, state universities to teach all this stuff. No, it's it's it's not gonna happen. You you should already be coming in with the skills that that are already being taught in terms of, you know, microbiology and You know, chemical engineering and all that sort of stuff.

But it's the i yeah, it's it's as the technology grows and our industry grows, we need to grow with it. But we can't make it up as we go along. Yeah, MCProf's I'm not sure whether it's directly related, it probably is a little bit related, but with the number of breweries that are opening up, you know, I I have seen there is an acceptance for people uh when a brewery opens.

that maybe the beer isn't going to be quite on song or the beer, you know, takes a betting down period, it takes six or seven months, you know, and a couple of brews before they sort of start getting consistency and things. And to my mind that's quite an interesting approach. You know, i if you went to a restaurant

that had just opened down the road and you know your souffle was sitting flat on the uh on the plate instead of rising, you wouldn't sort of say, Oh well look I guess you know it's gonna take him a while to to work out how his oven works. No, no you you expect to have perhaps some a little bit of

clunkiness in the service delivery or sorry, we're having a bit of trouble with the point of sale system or you know, the tickets are printing upside down, you know, whatever it might be, so there might be a delay in your foot. But the food itself has got to be right. And I think

we don't accept any more. I I think you've got to nail it on the first go because I think people now are smart enough to realise you should have brewed this a couple of times before you actually put it in bottles and sold it to me for real money. So when I uncap that, pour it. I don't want fizzes. Uh I don't want'em flat as a shit carter's hat. I want the beer that you intend me to drink. Not well this is this is pretty close and we're gonna get towards something better.

Um'cause I think, you know, you you don't get a second chance to make a a good first impression. Yeah, and but you know, th then again you sort of some breweries like uh and and a great example um I think is uh brewery like Green Beacon that

You know, when they started their beers were as they sort of found their their way around and I think then they got an a very skilled brewer. Um it was a uh a brewery where the owners were going to be uh a little bit involved but they'd had a background outside of the brewing industry. They got on a brewer and last year they were the champion medium sized brewery and you know it's a great example of that breweries can come on. In the C BI A.

Just we shouldn't get in the C C A awards. Yeah, so sorry, sorry, in the in the craft beer um awards, um not the AIBAs. But yeah, so and and we are starting to see you know so it's not that if you open and you're still learning your system that you're not going to get there. But I also think that, you know, four, five, six years down the track, you know, as more and more breweries open, the you know, opportunity for breweries to open and find their feet

They're losing the the chance to do that. I think that time has passed a little bit, the operations that we're seeing. you know, a much more professional operations and uh actually that's not a bad segue into just the number of breweries that we are hearing that are opening, you know. Just there's a lot of money and I described it yesterday, some of the breweries that you hear and some of the professional investment behind them, that it's not just

a couple of home brewers who have bought some stainless and uh you know going pro. These are, you know, fifty hectares. uh breweries with professional investors or serious investors n getting involved in them.

You know, prof I I don't know what to make of it because, you know, there's a lot of talk about whether there's a a beer bubble, whether there's a brewery bubble. But when you see the amount of money that's coming and the and a whole lot of people who are coming from outside the industry but see The brewing industry as the place to park your money and get a return.

I do have a few concerns about the sustainability of it and I compared it yesterday uh in a Facebook post to Is craft beer the new alpaca farm? I don't know if if you remember that about fifteen years ago alpacas were the thing that everyone were putting their money into. Yeah, I was gonna say that's a fairly dated reference. I uh maybe twenty five years ago I think alpaca farms were

Was it fifteen? Uh no, it it was it was in the two thousands. Um and I well I'll link the article because it was a relatively recent, I think it was about two thousand and five, that they were talking about the alpaca bubble bursting. Um but you know, you know like a butt nothing worse than hell pack a bubble bursting. But no you you do make you make a good point. And I think

I I don't think we should be surprised that, you know, craft beer all of a sudden now is the cool kid and everyone wants to get into it. Um and we shouldn't really be surprised that some people are getting into it. not necessarily because they want to, um, you know, foster the craft beer ethos or they want to create an artisan product or they want to, you know, reach new markets and all that sort of thing. I think like you say, a lot of people um

uh looking at it. And we've seen, you know, a fairly big group who's who's uh bought up fairly recently. um a couple of breweries as well as um a lot of venues over the last few years. Um and i clearly that that's that's not to, you know, create an empire um that sort of makes and sells its own beer through its own venues that it owns or anything like that. That's I I would suspect looking at

um creating a product that somebody else then wants to buy. You know, it's it's it's building an empire that that that then is for sale. So we shouldn't be surprised that that that will happen more often because

No money attracts money. Or, you know, it it will keep going over the next few years, I'm sure. Exactly. And hype attracts interest and investment, which is one of the things. But it's also craft beer is a very very attractive industry because we all like the idea of having our own venue or our own brewery or or our own beer brand, um, that we can sort of point to and say, That's mine.

And particularly if it looks like it's a booming industry and people think that they're gonna make a uh a better than average return. You know, it's better than, you know, an index fund on the stock market or better than buying an investment property.

we can make a great return and have fun doing it. Um, so you can understand the attraction. I just don't know that you know, there is the money there. The craft beer market is growing and it continues to grow and it by all accounts it continues to grow strongly.

But in the early days of any industry the returns tend to outperform then when you do get a lot of players and there's a lot more competition and we s really are seeing a lot of competition in the market and You know, yeah, I d I don't see particularly in Brisbane there have been a lot of venues that have opened over the last eighteen months or two years.

I don't see that many more venues opening. I see more existing venues particularly some of the bigger ones starting to you know, whereas maybe they had nine of the ten taps with line or C U B, we're starting to see that get down to maybe sixty or seventy percent and then, you know Asahi or Cooper's or one of the big guys will get another one and then they'll have one rotating tub of craft beer. And we are starting to see that sort of

demand, but even those bigger players are starting to look at the quality and price and some of the other aspects, not just the coolness of the brand. Um And as more and more players enter that market, price is gonna become one of the things. And again, that's going to mean that i if margins are already a little bit tight, they're gonna get even tighter, which means that the people who are looking at a big return from

their investment maybe aren't going to get those returns. Yep, yep. And look we'll also see in terms of that downward price pressure, um some of the smarter breweries now are are working on ways that they can uh uh, you know, take on larger amounts of of raw materials and that sort of thing, um, or, you know, bottle contracts or labelling or whatever it might be.

so that they can either keep the price the same as as uh perhaps the smaller ones are forced to push theirs up, or to, you know, perhaps bring out secondary brands that um that they can bring out at a a lower price point. Yep, yep. And and the the big guys are certainly gearing up as well. You know, we've seen y uh line which has had Kosyowsko bubbling away in the background, it's getting a bit of scale. Um they bought Byron Bay that they're going to

you know, grow locally before they, you know, sort of gradually expand. They've bought your Mundy. the plan seems to be do the same thing for that, you know, make it a a entrench it in the local market and then uh grow. Um and you can tell Matt how serious they are'cause another bit of news that popped up while we were on hiatus. Um Chris Sheehan, who was uh heading up the malt shovel Um Brewery has been appointed to um to look after Yamundi and I think Byron

He's gonna be yep, and and the charming squire up in Brisbane and uh yeah. So Which is uh that's in some seriously good hands. Uh shout out to Chris who's um one of Beer's loveliest blokes and um And particularly I guess I often bump into Chris and and have to speak to him when there's either waves of abuse or or controversy directed at Lyon. Um and he just he takes it on the chin and, you know, we have a good chat and as you often do over a beer.

Um a lot of time for Chris. So I think that's that's in very good hands. That that I think speaks volumes for how Lion are looking at treating their their craft brands. And and we're gonna see uh C U B, you know, they're about to launch Goose Island. The the brewer from Goose Island is going one of the brewers from Goose Island is gonna be on one of our

future of craft beer panels at the Cry Molt Trade Hub um during Good Beer Week. And actually if anyone's listening, you can come along and try the Goose Island IPA that we're going to have uh on on tap as part of it. They've kicked in a a keg of that to make it

worth your while coming along. Um but yeah, so CUB are going to be gearing up. And all of this is going to be competition. And so while the market is growing, the demand for craft beer, I just see that the volume of craft beer available growing at an even faster rate.

Yep, for sure. So to mash a to mash a a well mashed phrase, it all goes well for the future. Well it it all goes well for the future for the beer drinker so Um but again, yeah, so uh I mean I'm far too risk averse to be putting my uh hard earned this the small amount of hard earned I have into a uh into a stainless steel brewery, that's for sure. Yeah. No leave it to the uh

The guys are already doing very well in that space. But talking about uh new brands, a beer that's gonna be coming out by the time this podcast comes out, prof uh let me throw a name at you and you tell me what you think of When I tell you this. Is this like a Rorschart ink blot test or like a word association thing? You you throw a word and I gotta say what the first thing that comes into my head? Yes.

All right. I love it when we don't rehearse this. Bob Hook. Right, okay. Um well yard glass. Yard glass. Um yeah. Yeah. They'll be serving all their beers in yard glasses instead of schooners or railers or whatever. program goes to air live uh s tomorrow when we record it. There is the launch of Hawk's Beer. a new brewing operation, a couple of ad guys uh have decided that Beer industry is a fun industry and they want to bring a little bit more to it.

Um so they've created Hang on just checking the date. It's the fifth of April. This is just a little bit behind. In all seriousness'cause we have and and listeners we um Matt said here's one I'm not gonna tell you about, we'll do it live, you know, as we record.

So I d don't know anything about this. But the first thing now I'm thinking is y you can't have Hawkes beer and Hawker's beer. Uh how's that gone through? Well th they they're not the same word. And it's it's it's an o name. Surely it's it There's an R missing, that's it.

It's quite possible until you see the deckle, which is a big uh photo of Bob Hawk. But I don't think if you saw the packaging. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh okay. Uh well that's just the first thing I thought. Not that I'm trying to you know You're not trying to go all brew dog on them. Not at all. I just no, I just think that Very interesting that it would have got this far. Yeah, well uh quite quite apart from that, it's more a case of a couple of guys from the ad uh with backgrounds.

You lost me at a at at a couple of guys in the ad business. But go on. Funnily enough, there is. Um again talking about, you know, the the attraction of the uh industry, people with a little bit of money to in to invest but actually don't have a background in the industry. um which is Noble Boys beer. But anyway, uh back to H to Hawke's beer. So uh yeah, it's a couple of guys with backgrounds in advertising, um a a the third fellow who's got a background in beer sales and uh in and wine sales.

decide that they w wanted to have a beer and their story is when we thought of somebody you like to have a beer with The number one person you'd like to have a beer with is Bob Hawke.

Now I mean that doesn't quite ring true. Right. Bloke who cheated on his wife, who yeah. Fair income. I that's that's the best we can come up with from our guide. And that's what I thought. No, I had a sort of quite a long chat with them yesterday and uh you know, they says, Well, you know, you can draw a straight line between Bob Hawk and Beer.

And I still said, Oh yeah, well what is that straight line? Like he gave it up for however long, swore off it'cause it was easy. Yeah, so it was pretty much a straight line. And his um you know, excessive consumption, rapid consumption of it. More recently he uh he he does drink. Um And scaling it so that well there's no flavour in it anyway. Everyone was drinking thin pissy lager back in those days.

Not from not from yard glasses in competition form. No. And more recently he's been sculling at the cricket. Um you know, anyone who holds up a cricket. cup of beer in front of him. He he spells it, um, you know, much to the chagrin of um possible consumption of alcohol groups. He is he is

But yeah, so and so I asked them about that. Where are they based? Well, they're based in Sydney. Interestingly enough, um a good friend of the show, uh Just in Marrickville is it?'Cause there's no there's no room for any more breweries in Marrickville. No, no, no, no, they're contract brewing. Houseful sign is up. They're contract brewing. Justin Fox Um formerly of Colonial and now of Bintani and good friend of the show is

doing their consulting brewing. Apparently they'd tried out a few guys, got onto Justin because they wanted the beer to be good and the beer is being contract brewed at Colonial. Yeah, so so it any beer that starts up in this very crowded market that we just alluded to Needs a gimmick.

an angle, something to make them stand out. So you can see that. Um and particularly if you're a contract brewing operation that doesn't really have a home that you can go to or a touchstone, you you need an angle. So I can see why you've gone look at

But I you know, I again and it's no respect to uh Mr Hawk as they like to refer to it, but uh you know, Bob to his mates. Um It it's no surprise that he is a figure that you would look at and uh you know he has been a Prime Minister, but is he really the guy that you want to be launching a beer brand?

Um and and and I'll wait with again, w we'll know the answer to this when this comes up and I might update it in the show notes. But tomorrow when he uh pours that first beer, I'll be very interested to see I will bet that the first question that the media ask is Scarlet first ball. Um and if he doesn't, you know, even if they do so say, Well look we're not gonna do that, there is no shortage of B roll

that they can pull from YouTube or even the historical photos of him with a yard glass that is going to be the image that accompanies the the photo. Which is actually a bit of a shame because apparently the deal is that Bob Hawk has come on. Um, he's agreed to uh, you know, um

Yeah, yeah. Lend his name and his face to it. In return, whatever his share of the profits are, or whatever his share is, and they were very cagey about what the funding model was, but I'm sure that Bob Hawk's a a a smart enough guy that he's uh nailed it down. that it that the share that Bob Hawk would otherwise get it goes to land care, which again is a very, very worthy charity.

Hm. Um but you know that being the case, I still don't know why Bob Hook's name is is on the label because as as we found out with Coopers, having the you know what you see as good intentions doesn't necessarily mean that the message isn't subverted by what the public hear Yeah. Watch this space, I guess, and good luck to them. I mean look, you you're not gonna get a better brewer um consulting for them than fossil.

So th the beer is gonna and and look, and Colonial is beautifully set up to create faultless beer. Yep. Um and under the the watchful gaze of of Ash Hazel, um he's not gonna let a a dud beer out even if it's, you know, under somebody else's name. Um so I don't have any issues there with the you know, I'll I'll rest easy knowing the who's who's brewing it. But yeah, be will be interesting to see. Yeah, particularly when we saw that uh you know

Um yeah, C U B um eventually had to apologize for what they regarded or they admitted was a misstep in having Booney involved. Um, you know, Booney is a much loved Australian. A lot of people like to have a beer f with him, but His one claim to fame in the beer department was drinking fifty two beers on a flight. Was it fifty two? Fifty two's the yeah, the the the urban legend number. The the urban legend. On on on on the on the flight to yeah.

Um and you know, even though they didn't promote that, they they didn't sort of celebrate that and he didn't talk about it, the fact that that association was there meant that You know, C B some years later had to say, Well maybe it was a bad idea having him associated with V B Well there's also a big danger then when Canadian Club threw a heap of money at him to come out and say I'm over beer and I I prefer Canadian Club and Dry in cans.

Well, who's to say that Bob won't come out and teetotal again? That's it. There you go. That's a good point. But anyway, yeah, no, look at but it it it is interesting and it says a lot about the state of the industry that you know, something that may otherwise be a fantastic beer.

when you are looking for angle. But you know, again Uh we we won't we we won't know until this podcast actually comes out what what has happened and uh speaking speaking of um of guys that I would actually m far prefer to have uh a beer with than Bob Hawk, um and the list is is is long. Um a quick shout out to another of um Beer's nice blokes um who celebrated fifty years in beer this year, Dermot O'Donnell.

Absolutely, congratulations to Dermot. And I was hoping to get down I was invited to the lunch. Did w were you invited to the lunch, prof? No. Sorry. No, it'll go it all all goes through you. Well no, I was invited. James was invited, I presume that you're invited. Um Matt, sorry, I I should've uh I I I should have thought that, but uh Yeah. Yeah, the guy who could walk there rather than or would you prefer to spend, you know, Sydney and Brisbane Airfares.

No, we won't invite you. Well the invitation came and and you know, w we get it invited because we are a a a multi regional operation. We do get invited to things that aren't necessarily in our backyard. Well you might, I don't. Oh Here go on. What were you saying? Oh well you g no well, you were being flown up to um Go on, it's not a competition. Uh Byron Bay. But anyway, but you know yes I was invited. James was invited. And and asked the ask the usual question. Oh look, would love to come.

Does this include an airfare and you know, particularly when you're a multinational uh brewery, uh th they quite often fly people around the world? Or you know, at least around the country. It didn't come with a ticket, um and quite often I do fund my own uh travel to to these sorts of things. Um particularly when it is a great guy like Dermot. Um but I had a commitment the day before, commitment the day after, it was going down strictly for that.

And yeah. Yeah, it's a long way to go for a lunch. Just for lunch. If if I could have you know, if we could have got together and recorded a podcast um during it. That would have been fantastic, but that just wasn't gonna happen. But anyway, that's all that's all by the way. Um yes, good point. Uh Dermot uh is a fantastic guy. And we will try and make time to sit with him during could be a week. Um and uh record some of his reminiscences uh'cause Yeah, he has really been involved in so many

different beers and so many different phases of the Australian uh beer industry that uh it would be great to sit down and not just uh record it by Skype but actually sit down have a beer with him and uh talk to him about it. Would and that's probably an episode we'll have to do over a couple of uh Over a couple of episodes.

Yep, let's yeah, put that in the diary. But speaking of people that I did get to sit down and uh have a beer with, actually we we didn't have a beer, but we did sit down uh face to face. Uh on my recent trip to Adelaide when I spoke to Tim Cooper.

Um I also caught up with Michael Cameron, had the uh quick tour of Pirate Life Brewery, which he's apparently already at you know, bursting uh at its seams and they're gonna be building a new brewery and uh but I caught up with Michael Cameron and had a little bit of a chat about The first couple of years of Pirate Life, how things are going is they've ticked over the million uh leader mark and uh yeah, a few of the things that Well don't give it all away, let's just chat to him.

Michael Cameron, thank you uh for joining us again on Radio Bridge News. Mate, my pleasure. Well, thank you very much for the tour of the brewery. It's uh you you've certainly expanded a lot since you opened just uh two years ago. Yeah, it was uh our second birthday celebrations last Sunday, so uh it's been an interesting couple of years.

Um uh probably grown a hell of a lot faster than we anticipated but uh it's been a great journey. It sounds like you've really been running just to sort of stay ahead of the market. You have had explosive growth.

Yeah, it's I think um you know, as we were talking about earlier as uh as our growth we've had through the uh the off premise business business around Australia has uh really not only surprised us but it's been terrific. So it's allowed us our strength here. We're an eighty percent package business.

Uh so our strength in package businesses allowed us to continue to grow really quickly. I don't know whether you're unique in having such a um big off-premise brand. Um and eighty percent is a huge part of your volume going out in in in package.

Is that something that you set out to to to create or is that something that's just happened? No, I think uh if you look at it from a sort of a mathematical point of view Uh you get the sense that uh with the particularly if you you talk about uh taps and and uh on premise Um with the amount of uh taps that are contracted by the big boys, which we we we know we live with, we don't necessarily like but we will live with it.

uh and the and the new habit of uh rotational programmes which um pubs now run, which I agree with a hundred percent because I think it's the best way to get interesting beer through to the uh through to the customer and the growth of the amount of craft breweries in Australia. You know, it's uh from what I can gather it's up around four hundred now.

So just if you do that into a m put that into a mathematical formula, it makes it really, really hard to get high volume uh high volume growth on on premise where off premise you've got uh some that are really focused on on high end, high quality craft beer, but as it develops up, a lot of the bottle shops are slowly getting to understand how, you know, craft beer can really help their um h help their bottom line and uh and customer flow through. So uh we've we've you know made a genuinely

serious decision to follow that track. So the majority of our sales from the country now are um you know really experienced in the um in the off-premise market. They understand uh working working with uh cases rather than keys. And and bottle shops do seem to have a little bit more loyalty there. um a little bit more regularity, they will play around

probably a small portion of their stock will be what's new to to appease people are looking for something that's new and interesting, but they do seem to keep a a a a much stronger core age. Yeah, well they've got more space. If you if you look at the let's say the average you know bar has got eight taps will He can only play with eight taps, where in the uh in the uh bottle shop business they've probably got room for thirty or forty different skews or fifty or sixty or or even more.

Uh so they'll they'll stick with the ones that uh sell and then they'll drop off the uh the the the low hanging fruit which is a normal business practice uh and keep replacing that. But they've just got a lot more space. uh to be able to showcase uh you know different styles of craft beer. And how important was having cans and getting that really strong uh retail? Oh m massively, massively. And uh when Red Jack and I made the decision it was about a

twenty five second discussion. Uh we all wanted to go cans. We'd um you know, having worked overseas we had a sense of where the the can was going. Um and uh you know it's in in two years the amount of canning lines that are now in Australia, the amount of breweries that are putting beer in cans, um the amount of international

uh international breweries that are bringing cans in. There's a no brainer as far as we're concerned. You raised the uh topic of tap contracts before and said that you didn't like them but I i it is the market. Uh there's been a lot of discussion about that with uh Lion talk leaving the C BIA and suggestions that the uh CBIA will be able to advocate uh

for you know, against tap contracts. At the same time we're seeing a lot of smaller brewers forming uh formal or informal arrangements with venues to make sure that they are keeping their beers on certain taps. Do you think that uh Tap contracts are you

And anti-competitively are they hurting the industry or are they just a fact of life in in in the beer business? I think they're certainly hurting the industry. Uh but as I said a minute ago, is is it let's say the tap contracts disappeared, then that will open the market up for further rotation. So you've still got

four hundred breweries, they're all making two or three beers each. So there's there's twelve there's twelve hundred um you know different skews out there that are chasing that tap point. And I still think it's always going to be a battle because I do hope that the um the publicans continue the rotation programme. Um yes there is a lot of uh craft breweries doing small contract arrangements. Um that's here to stay as well.

Um but I re I really think that uh yeah it'd be terrific if um if the decision came down in favour of the craft brewing business so that the the the big guys could uh get away from the tap contracts. But I think I still think it's gonna be a real challenge. Do you think if uh tap contract uh changed dramatically and I I might even take a step back.

we're we're really seeing, you know, you walk round in Adelaide, you walk around Sydney, you walk around Brisbane and inner city bars have a very high representation for craft in all of its forms. Um and the small guys seem to be really heavily represented in metropolitan venues. But you don't have to go too far from city centres and you're not seeing the same penetration of crowds. Um and when you see that craft is maybe six or seven percent of the Australian market

I I'd be willing to say that you know, it's probably thirty percent of inner city bars, um, and much less in in outer suburbs and regional uh Australia. If tap contracts suddenly left tomorrow Do you think that we would see, you know, a rapid change in consumption or you know, i i i is craft making big inroads? It's making big inroads, but I think the

Uh in uh the the discussion you're talking about with inner city I agree with, but uh like anything i five years ago only thirty percent of inner city bars were uh craft uh fans. Now there's a much bigger percentage. Uh I'm a great believer that regional uh uh suburban and regional bars and bottle shops will continue to grow.

You know, we've taken a we've taken a uh a a bit of a plan to um move out into regional Australia. We're out in Orange the other day and I'm going up to Armadale to do a tap takeover. I think there's a massive opportunity outside of the city centres and I think that's where a lot of the growth will come, uh not only uh o on t on on premise but also off premise. And

I I guess that raises a a a good point. At the moment I don't see that there's huge demand out in the regional centres and it's brewers going out and creating that demand for it that will I think will ultimately give publicans a reason that, you know, when they renegotiate their tap contracts it's not gonna be ninety percent, it'll be fifty percent or thirty percent or or or not at all.

Our philosophy on that is that when we started up we did tasting after tasting after tasting and we have a firm belief that our business and any craft beer business is about getting beer in people's hands again to try.

Right. So we've done I think that we've done that really well in in the inner city area. But I don't and we're not gonna stop doing it in the inner city, but I I I think our focus will just move a little bit into uh suburban and and regional areas and once you start the education processes I

call it where you can get beer into people's hands, getting them to taste the unique flavours of craft beer, getting them to start to think about what they're really drinking, then that's when the change comes.

And I mean y you described your twenty five hect uh system in there as the hardest working twenty five hectolitre brewery in in the country, I reckon. You know, we when you look at you and Jack and Red and d the the rest of your team, you'd be one of the hardest working brewery teams um on a promotional sense as well, you are out everywhere and you seem to be willing to take on that responsibility for not just

harvesting existing demand but going out and creating demand for craft beer and for pirate life. Yeah I I think I don't think we're any more hard working than anybody else. Uh but I think we've got the uh we've had the opportunity because we there is three of us that uh that manage the business.

Uh plus we've got a another team of um seven brewers who are all, you know, passionate about what we do. So we have the ability to, you know, uh uh spread a bit further than a lot of breweries. You know, then most breweries are one guy trying to do everything and he doesn't have the time or the energy or or or simply the the the you know, the time is the big thing for him. He said, How can I get out and do that where, you know, we can

afford to be doing a you know a two or three tastings out Adelaide on any one night of the week. We can we can have a couple of guys in Melbourne. Uh but we don't spend a lot of money on marketing, but we do spend a lot of money on tastings and that's probably the difference.

between us and a few others is we just believe in the the power of the tasting. an article I posted on Facebook that was looking at some closures that have happened in in in the US and uh you made the comment that the

You know, w when you read the article the the the brewer sounded like a really lovely guy, very, very passionate, um but he came from outside the industry and uh they were running a tasting room for three days a week because they wanted to have a life. Um There there is what people talk about this craft and this lifestyle of being a It is a business and it's a fairly hard game, isn't it?

There is no brewery in the world that's been successful without truckloads of hard work. It is seven days a week, you know, twenty four hours a day. If you're not working on it, you're thinking about it, um, and that's the only way it can work. And that it's uh you know, I and I wasn't being critical of a guy in the US But yeah, he he was only doing his yeah, his his income was coming from his uh on premise

restaurant, you know, then you've got to make those decisions. And they're business decisions and business lifestyle decisions he made and, you know, the the story uh he wrote is what's what's happened, but I think

any brewer and whether it's uh you know guys in Adelaide, Melbourne, City, Brisbane, they they're all working their they're all working their ass off and uh and will continue to do so because that's the nature of the industry. We love it. Uh and it's not you know, it's not a job to us, it's a it's a

It's it's just the way life is. We we're in the brewery business and uh we work hard at it. And and you come from a a long history of both being in the beer industry in a sense, but in the hospitality industry, so you've your brewing business as an extension of that? Yeah, I think uh being in the pub game for thirty odd years now and and having understood what the what it what the sort of energy it needs to actually, you know, run a pub and a restaurant.

But more importantly, having worked in the US and uh and travelled a lot over there distributing beer. Everybody everybody's working hard and it's um you know, you you just uh head down bum up and away you go. Where do you see the Australian market at the moment? Do you think that we'll that with the rapid opening of breweries that

The number of breweries is soon going to get ahead of the demand curve or uh we're going to see a shift towards bigger breweries, or yeah, what's your feeling about the market? I I think there's uh there's a couple of models that I I like. I think the model of a a brew pub um can work and I'll use an example of the Wheaty uh here in Adelaide and uh since Jade developed brewing her own beers.

And I don't know for sure but I'd suggest maybe her turnover hasn't grown as much but I know her profitability must have because she's making her own beer and the margins are better. So I think the true the brew pub model can work. And that can work nationally and uh without any drama. And then there's a model that we've probably taken down and and perhaps you know the likes of um you know Young Henry's and Four Pines and Stone and Wood.

uh, ferrell where um you know, you need to get your volume up you're a national distributor, you need to get your volume up to about a million a million litres a year to become profitable, but if you can get up there reasonably quickly, then you can survive. But I don't see But the ps the the the the lone, you know, guy who wants to start a brewery, my advice would

get into a brew pub, get a front of house working really well for him, get his cash flow going and and a great example of that is the guys at Big Shit, you know. They had a little the we got a small brewery, had a small little brew uh brew pub at the front of that. They've now opened another bar, so then you know, I'd suggest eighty percent of their volume's going through the two bars and there's some serious good cash in that and uh good profitability. And how about the uh

state of quality in in the beer market, do you see that it's improving or do you think that there are some uh breweries opening but that maybe aren't quite nailing it yet? Um I think there's there's still lots of breweries that are aren't quite nailing it yet. Um I'd say that quality I'm not seeing as much uh a year and a half ago, um you still come across the occasional infection.

Um but that again boils down to, you know, how much uh money the guys have got to put into their lab equipment, how well trained they've been and and and and I talk about it a lot. It's a lot of a is home brewers that are learning the game and and to learn the game takes time and if you haven't got the equipment there that you know how to use to be able to maintain your quality, uh then it's a it's a hard one.

Uh to me quality's everything and uh maintaining the the stability of your beer all the way along the line is is vital to a successful business. It's an interesting question uh and I I wonder whether it reflects on the stage we're at in in craft beer is that you would never go to a restaurant

um in within a week of them opening and if they can't do an omelet you'd sort of go, Oh look they're just learning or you know they they they're a home chef. You know when when you open a restaurant you need to be getting your food quality um you know right from day one. Of course they might But the food needs to be pretty much spot on. Oh you know the the brewery's open it'll take them a while to to to find their feet.

I also think that because the bottle shop owner and the pub owner um ask your learning about craft beer, their palate is probably not as strong as it needs to be. So they're not picking up the issues as well. So you've got a brewer who's who is still learning, um putting out beer in the public and taste and thing, oh he says, Oh that's just craft beer but in some times it's I'd probably craft beer but it's slightly

infected craft beer or or something wrong with it. And I think the same with the guys in the doctor shop. And that'll take time for everybody's palate and it goes back to you know training and tasting and and getting people to understand the varieties.

wonderful varieties of craft beer, but also starting to understand that there are, you know, four or five key infections which we all see every day. That you know, as soon as we can eliminate those issues then I think the industry will be in a better shape.

And and what's the next for Pirate Life? Uh I know you've got some tanks uh on order. We're gonna see an expansion of the tank farm back there. How much longer do you think you can stay in the existing brewery? I'll be sometime in uh we'll we'll we'll be sort of maxed out here sometime in two thousand and uh two thousand eighteen.

Uh so we got a few plans on the drawing board but uh that all boils down to where we can find the capital to to make all that happen. So um I think our job is to get uh get the new the eight new tanks uh in the system in uh in May June, get them rolling along and then And slowly, you know, uh try to um you know increase our um

increase a little bit of our export programme because I get excited about that. I I I love shipping our beer overseas. Uh continue to really look after the the bot shops and pubs that uh have supported us which has been terrific and uh and then we'll see what happens from there.

It's interesting you raised uh export. Do you think there is a future for exporting beer? It's always one of those things that because of the value proposition that needs to be in beer exporting can often, particularly from Australia, which is a high cost country, uh it can be a tough one to uh to to to crack. Do you think that there is room for you to grow a a bigger export programme?

I I think there is and again it comes back down to quality and we've we've been now shipping to the UK for uh two or three months. We've been over to test the beer at the uh when each uh container arrives. Well Jack and Red were there uh two weeks ago and Jack and I went over for their first container. Um and the fact I think the fact that we shall have beer refrigerated everywhere we go, store it refrigerated.

uh it's holding up pretty well uh financially. We're on the higher end of the scale. But if uh you know uh uh m the Toyotas and the uh the high uh you know there's a there's a market out there for you know the sort of medium high quality beer as long as it's really good and consistent and we're getting, you know, two or three emails every day from uh UK companies

tr trying to chase our beer down. So and that's the same thing in uh Hong Kong. Uh we now, you know, we've got a uh a few beers going up there every second week or so uh and New Zealand's starting to grow. So there's there is the opportunity there um and uh we'll keep pushing forward as best we can.

So quality is a benchmark, but obviously to justify that higher price, you need to have a brand that carries that that price tag. What's the secret to Pirate Life's branding? That's a very good question. Um I think uh I think there's a um I think the name is interesting. I think uh you know Jack

creation of that new sleep was a a pretty good story. Um I think our packaging's pretty simple. I think the fact that we tell the story of our uh recipe around the top of the can Um I think it's a a multitude of things and you know to you know to answer your question uh it's a pretty hard one but I think it's a mixture of three or four different things.

Um the the beer's in cans, it's consistently good, you know, consistent all the time. Uh people resonate with the name, um, they love wearing the merchandise. Um it's a whole package of things. Michael Cameron, thanks very much for your time and uh good luck for the rest of twenty seventeen. My pleasure. Thank you.

Brew's News is made possible by BrewPack, Australia's number one craft contract brewer. With over one hundred craft beers and ciders on the Rost and Counting, Brewpak specialises in offering growing craft breweries a home for their packaged and kegged beer, no matter how craft. Serious about handmade beers, and with an open door policy, Brupax brewers love having passionate hands on partners in the brewery. Thinking about craft contract brewing, think Brupax.

And uh yes, we thank Brew Pack for not only making a whole lot of great craft beers possible, but also for making this podcast possible. There you go, and that was Michael Cameron. Mate the people that I love speaking to, you know, there are a lot of great people, but the people that I love speaking to, you know, are the guys that don't get the frightened rabbit eyes

when the microphone's in front of them. And um yeah, Michael will will tell you what he thinks. Fair fair to say he's never sh he's never short of a word. Yeah. And he tells you what he thinks. It's not just when the the the mic is off. So uh Hate, did you manage did you did you get to try the uh the apricot Bellinavice? I didn't. I actually I did try the Bolina Vice the night before. Um and it was it was fantastic. Did he tell you the story?

Uh no, and I didn't think to ask him. No, well it started out as a as as a throwback, a batch of throwback when the um when the power went out in um in South Australia. And so it kinda stalled. So they said, Well what are we gonna do with this? Well let's just let's just park it.

And um yeah, and it became a an apricot balinnovice due to an availability of hey, you guys, we got uh heaps of beautiful fresh apricots. Do you want some? Actually, that'd be perfect. So one of those occasions where You know, when life gives you lemonades in this case uh lemons, you make lemonade in this case, um apricots and a and a blackout, um and your throwback IPA turns into a a magnificent apricot pollinabite. It's why we love the craft in craft brewing.

Well and interestingly, you know, as as as sort of throwaway a line as that is, it does show that we often talk about, you know, the agility that the smaller brewers have. You know, if if something messed up in the big brewery, it's just it's it's down the gurg. Mm-hmm as all that conversation went

They are kicking goals, you know, they've they've done their own thing. There aren't too many breweries that are launching with a double IPA or even a big IPA as their go to beer in Australia. There's a lot of golden oiles and a lot of those sorts of things. And uh eighty percent of their beer in can, everyone else is trying to get uh beer on tap. We don't have any letters, do we? Don't have any cards letters. But we do have a new sponsor this week. Oh lovely. Um It's not Damian Renahan, is it?

It is Damien Renagan, thank you. So Damien, thank you for coming on as a producer. Uh you can become a producer as well for as little as uh five dollars a month or a donation, one-off donation of your choice, or if you really like the show, ten dollars a month and become an executive producer and help us out. You can also send cards and letters to us at Matt at Bruce News.com.au Leave comment on Facebook or at the end of the show notes which are going up.

Prof, I'm trying to think if th if there's anything else that we need to let people know. You can buy merch. We've got those lovely T shirts and truckers caps if you're interested in buying one of those. Um We did talk last week, Prof, about possible guests. Uh and we have Bart Watson from the Brewers Association of the States, uh, who's about to go into the American Craft Brewers Conference.

um and he's gonna speak to us afterwards. So that's uh teed up so you will get to hear His discussion about whether there is a craft beer, craft brewery uh or indeed any form of beer bubble at all, um as well as some of the other metrics that are going on in the US. I think that's about it. You can leave feedback on iTunes or your favourite podcasting app. That's about all I've got to say, prof. That's about all of the uh formalities in the uh housekeeping.

All done. What are you up to this week? Um Mm nothing this way. Nothing this week. Uh school holidays. Yeah. You'll be away with the family next week, prof? Are we gonna have to track you down on Phillip Island or No, no, we're back by then. Back by then. Perfect. Yeah, uh just down down for the weekend. Well, look forward to chatting and look forward to reporting back on Hawke's beer.

I'm off on a another PNOP food and wine cruise, um doing some beer tasting, so I'll be able to report back on that. Fairstar the froth ship. Ah was it but see Fair Star's not even about I think that's razor blades these days. It's uh Oh it could be. It's a Pacific Aria. Um I'm on, which is a lovely shout out to P and O. Um very much enjoying uh being on cruises. There you go. You you'll be crooning in the lounge next in a satin jacket.

But I'll see if I can get you a gig on the stand up cruises. Done. Or we could do cooking, beer and'cause it's it's cooking demonstrations. We can uh get you as a uh you know as an Australian barbecue team member. Yeah, here we go. Okay, probably should ask Chris Luxton'cause he's you know, he's he's the local guy. Just always should ask the local. Well I I'm uh doing something with Chris uh during Bruce Vegas uh did a

uh beer, beef and uh barbecue thing with Chris and he broke down a four quarter of beef, which was fantastic and uh looking at doing some work with him uh soon. Excellent. With the birds, wasn't it? It was with the two birds, yeah. So we uh matched a few uh beers to some uh beef and barbecue and uh the sunset ale is a lovely beer to go with uh uh beef. It is. But anyway, prof, we're out of here.

Great to chat and look forward to chatting again with you next week. See you till next week. Thank you for uh joining us once again. And uh prof the the traffic's been going really, really strongly, so uh People seem to have been thirsting for us while we were gone. So, uh yeah, i if you are listening out there, let us know what you'd like to hear and uh you know, keep us on us. And we're out.