[kel]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast dr roger mcfillin for our fans out there [kel]: how about you take one second pause this podcast and click on five stars for [kel]: us on an apple there you go mom come on o mom's our fan now [kel]: we know from our numbers that there's a lot of people out there who are [kel]: fans of the topics and we do do bring in topics that are outside [beverley_thomson]: yes
[kel]: the main stream and people are interested in hearing more about our perspectives and the [kel]: perspectives of our guests so please that's important if we can get more five stars [kel]: out there we love that please visit r website rad rad gen dot com agen [kel]: pod e's always got the radgenpod [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: dot com and you can contact us there we've been [beverley_thomson]: m
[kel]: getting son email s from guests with interesting thoughts on future topics and we really [kel]: do appreciate that and it's really assisted me getting out to talking to some other [kel]: people out there who are experts outside of areas that i have studied and that's [kel]: important for us to bring on guests who have experts in specific areas definitely us [kel]: welcome back kelly we missed you last week i had to go on vacation [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: again my third time
[beverley_thomson]: wow [kel]: the life of the life of a teacher life of an other tey with your [kel]: summers off just so easy i wouldn't say as maybe you need those breaks more [kel]: than others i would they're well earned well we're glad to have you back it [kel]: was an interesting podcast last week because we were talking about the umbrella review study [kel]: on sarah to nan and its association with depression so fortuitous guests that we have
[kel]: today in the same same realm in the same area our guest today is beverly [kel]: thompson she's a resort sure author of mental health advocate with experts and understanding the [kel]: adverse effects of anti depressence including anti depress and induced suicide amongst young people everley [kel]: has worked with the british medical association the scottish government and the u k council [kel]: for evidence based psychiatry we just got finished with her book she's the author of
[kel]: anti depressed break through examination of epidemic anti depressing harm and dependent beverly welcome to [kel]: the radically genuine podcast [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: she's paused a little bit [beverley_thomson]: thank you for inviting me [kel]: there you are [beverley_thomson]: post [kel]: from from the scottish highlands [beverley_thomson]: i'm back [kel]: yes she's [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: back [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: listen congratulations on the
[beverley_thomson]: okay [kel]: book it's an outstanding resource but i am really interested to know how you got [kel]: focused and interested in this particular area [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's a really really interesting story from [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: point of view i'm probably not what you would [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: expect and my experience isn't probably what you would expect so i'm actually a graduate
[beverley_thomson]: in mark ing and languages and then i moved to the highlands of scotland and [beverley_thomson]: couldn't really find a job so i decided to to do open university psychology and [beverley_thomson]: went to work as a councillor [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: in schools so i worked in primary [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: and secondary schools and i think about fifteen years ago also i can't exactly remember
[beverley_thomson]: started to notice that so much was changing in terms of the way that we [beverley_thomson]: were actually speaking about children and their behavior and i started to notice that you [beverley_thomson]: know a lot of the problems the society problems they had and the school problems [beverley_thomson]: that they had were actually blaming [kel]: she [beverley_thomson]: them [kel]: froze
[beverley_thomson]: you know the language started to be that we were blaming the child and for [beverley_thomson]: not being able to cope with their lives and i started to notice you know [beverley_thomson]: the terms were being brought in like you know i think he or she has [beverley_thomson]: a d d or i think there's something wrong with him and kind of spark [beverley_thomson]: something in me and i i started to think to myself i don't think this
[beverley_thomson]: is right but i don't think this should be happening i don't think we should [beverley_thomson]: be blaming children for not being able to cope which you know sometimes as very [beverley_thomson]: very difficult circumstances that children were finding themselves in um so i started to research [beverley_thomson]: i started to become interested in sort of the wider aspect of the state of
[beverley_thomson]: our mental health and yeah i met james davis who i'm sure you've probably interviewed [beverley_thomson]: or know i did some work for kep when they first launched on became i [beverley_thomson]: have to say slightly obsessed with the topic [kel]: hm [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's very easy isn't [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: it it's very easy to become [kel]: right [beverley_thomson]: sessed with the subject [kel]: a [beverley_thomson]: and from there [kel]: oh
[beverley_thomson]: i've always loved writing i've always loved reading and i thought to myself i'm going [beverley_thomson]: to write a book about this [kel]: well we're glad that you did it's [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: actually very easy to read and there's tons of resources so for those who are [kel]: our parents or who are currently on anti sense or more importantly professionals out in [kel]: the field really do recommend this as a front line resource to understand the actual
[kel]: science and what can happen when you start taking anti depressence specifically what can happen [kel]: when you start taking it for an extended period of time you were saying you [kel]: were talking [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: about the course of your career [beverley_thomson]: m [kel]: where i've kind of witnessed the same thing with the narrative change around emotional struggles [kel]: somewhere long the line we started talking about our emotional struggles from something that was
[kel]: a very normal aspect of kind of growth and evolution in life with practical strategies [kel]: and you know centuries of wisdom to speaking about it as if it was some [kel]: disease that somebody caught you know my depression [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: my a d h d and that's that you're inflicted with and potentially like this [kel]: disease is something that you'd be inflicted with for the rest of your life how [kel]: did we get here
[beverley_thomson]: yeah well how did we get here haven't we been gullible [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: really when you think about it i mean a gullible society i think we are [beverley_thomson]: definitely you know one of the things is that we have just brought into it [beverley_thomson]: hook cline and sinker i mean how can we have been at a society where [beverley_thomson]: we have come to rely on serious powerful psycho active drugs and not question it
[beverley_thomson]: how have we become a society where we've allowed ourselves to do that [kel]: m i think yeah i think we had a discussion on bias at one point [kel]: and this is purely an example of our authority bias am i right just you [kel]: have someone who the perceived knowledge is they know more about this than you do [kel]: so you trust them and even doctors [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: trust the farmasutocal company that spent millions of dollars to develop a quote unquote solution
[kel]: so they trust the literature that's provided to them and then they spew it out [kel]: to their their clients when they come in and they believe it to be true [kel]: multiple authorities [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think you know one of the things that we have to think [beverley_thomson]: about in years gone by you know we all believe that doctor knows best and [beverley_thomson]: that was something you know maybe in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was acceptable
[beverley_thomson]: we're consumers of these drugs we live in a society where we do three billion [beverley_thomson]: google searches a [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: day how can how can we not accept that we need to be better informed [beverley_thomson]: about these powerful drugs that we take how have we allowed that to happen [kel]: i mean it's a great question one of the things in your book that we've [kel]: discussed quite [beverley_thomson]: yeah
[kel]: a bit is the chemical and balanced myth and in your book at one [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: point you you point out how psychotropic drugs work you explain how they work and [kel]: you state [beverley_thomson]: ah [kel]: that they actually do not cure a non existing chemical and balance rather they create [kel]: one which affects people mental mentally and physically many of those are unpredictable is that [kel]: an accurate interpretation of what i read
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i mean we now [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: know that i by the way you know what we what we've heard recently was [beverley_thomson]: it was an excellent umbrella [kel]: eh [beverley_thomson]: study excellent study but this is not new i mean back to and somebody i [beverley_thomson]: love quoting you know if we go back to i think i think it was [beverley_thomson]: nineteen eighty eight when no i think it was nine ninety six actually that stephen
[beverley_thomson]: hayman who was the director of the n i m h y you know he [beverley_thomson]: talked about these psychiatric [kel]: that's [beverley_thomson]: drugs then and you know he talked about how they are our normal new transmitter [beverley_thomson]: activity he talked about how they quantitively and qualatively change our brain so we've known [beverley_thomson]: this for a very very long time you know this isn't new we have known
[beverley_thomson]: it and i think i wrote a paper in twenty four teen which talked about [beverley_thomson]: the myth of the chemical in balance and yes they don't cure our chemical and [beverley_thomson]: balance they alter us they change us change every aspect or have potential to change [beverley_thomson]: every single aspect of our being [kel]: let's get into the nittygrity i think a lot of people [beverley_thomson]: a
[kel]: who are listening to the podcast want to know some specific details about anti depressions [kel]: i have a story i remember a friend [beverley_thomson]: m [kel]: of mine in college and i was in college in the late nineteen nineties um [kel]: was prescribed an anti depressant drug and he found himself wandering in the middle of [kel]: the city not knowing how he got there and we've also had on our podcast
[kel]: a father who an experienced acathesia induced homicidal ideation so those are some [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: of the extreme aspects of of taking a drug and impacting everybody differently but let's [kel]: what are the dangers of anti depressince in your research what are we actually observing [kel]: in both clinical practice and anything that we know from research trials [beverley_thomson]: okay well first two things i have to say is that nobody knows how an
[beverley_thomson]: anti depressant will affect you so everybody can be affected in a in a unique [beverley_thomson]: way so there is no predictable here there are no predictable [kel]: yes [beverley_thomson]: so there's no way anybody can say okay take this anti press and this particular [kel]: to [beverley_thomson]: dose and this is what will happen to you okay it's a bit of a [beverley_thomson]: russian roulet in some ways you know [kel]: yeah
[beverley_thomson]: some people some people manage fine and some people don't so that's that's really the [beverley_thomson]: first thing that i have to say the other thing that i have to say [beverley_thomson]: in terms of you know what we actually know about whether it be adverse effects [beverley_thomson]: or long term effects really mostly from anecdotal evidence [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: that's you know that's where we're getting the true information from you know [kel]: perfect
[beverley_thomson]: these people that have been on these drugs for thirty years who are now having [beverley_thomson]: horrendous heart breaking experiences um and are suffering really suffering because of these drugs we [beverley_thomson]: don't have we need vitally need independent research and i'm sure you'll agree with me [beverley_thomson]: there you know that's one thing that we desperately need but we really have very
[beverley_thomson]: little research in terms of what is happening to people but we know some of [beverley_thomson]: the effects effects can be incredibly varied but they can be serious life changing life [beverley_thomson]: altering and sometimes fatal [kel]: i think what's most concerning to me is how [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: physicians communicate them to patients and families as if they're rather benign um there's [beverley_thomson]: yeah
[kel]: there's no we don't talk about dependents and they think they speak with their clients [kel]: mostly in terms of the potential benefits and really minimize any potential risk in fact [kel]: almost speaking as if those risks are quite rare and quite mild [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: and [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: beverley i'm assuming that the reason they speak about the drugs in this way is
[kel]: because that's what's communicated to them through pharmasutical marketers is that your impression as well [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely and i think even though most doctors are beginning to realize that a [beverley_thomson]: lot of the the a lot of the adverse effects that patients come back to [beverley_thomson]: them tell them about because of the drugs that they still don't inform patients as
[beverley_thomson]: they should about the adverse effects shall i read the john reed studying twenty team [beverley_thomson]: because that might be yea so there was a twenty eight ten study which i [beverley_thomson]: have in my book and asking people directly reveals far higher rates of adverse respond [beverley_thomson]: sister antiantipressence than previously understood especially in the emotional psychological and in personal domains so
[beverley_thomson]: this on nine survey looked at one thousand and four hundred and thirty one people [beverley_thomson]: in thirty eight countries so when when you listen to these statistics i mean this [beverley_thomson]: just really really tells you about how serious some of these effects are so feeling [beverley_thomson]: emotionally numb seventy point six per cent feeling foggy or detached seventy percent feeling not
[beverley_thomson]: like myself sixty six per cent sexual difficulties sixty six per cent drowsy sixty two [beverley_thomson]: percent reduction in positive feelings sixty point four per cent you know distorted dreams fifty [beverley_thomson]: nine percent umsuicideality fifty point three percent half the people who in the in this [beverley_thomson]: survey said that they had some form of suicideality i mean this is crazy isn't [beverley_thomson]: it
[kel]: it is crazy and i mean i've mentioned this i actually had gone to a [kel]: doctor young when i was young and i was [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: i was diagnosed within fifteen minutes [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: and i remember now we were asking well are there my mom was with me [kel]: and she asked is this something that it will have to be on for the [kel]: rest of his life is it okay he was it was very dismissive verybody's doing [kel]: it's okay it's kind of like you
[beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: know it'll [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: be fine there were no we were not given any type of chance to just [kel]: think [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: about it or go home take a month or two and you know if things [kel]: don't get better we were just told this is your solution here you go i [kel]: was fortunate [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: to not you know to not stay on it i was on for a very
[kel]: short period of time but in that short period of time i can tell you [kel]: i experienced several of what you just said [beverley_thomson]: absolutely that is you know that is so typical [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: because it's not until things start to go wrong that people start to question why [beverley_thomson]: do we wait until it's too late and things start to go wrong and we [beverley_thomson]: start to have these adverse effects that we start to question the drugs [kel]: yeah
[beverley_thomson]: should we be questioning them from the beginning before [kel]: there's no doubt [beverley_thomson]: we even take them [kel]: yeah in the united states here and and we're we're working with parents who have [kel]: kids who are struggling with depression anxiety and self injury or suicidal thoughts and one [kel]: of the feedback that we're getting from parents is that [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: they feel almost guilted into the prescription from prescribers as if
[beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: it is there front line treatment and the most effective treatment for developing teen agers [kel]: and and young adults universally parents are kind of saying they make us feel like [kel]: we're a bad parent if we do not follow medical advice but yet you're [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: you have a chapter special chapter on this for young people and it is so [kel]: clear and i've done my obsessive research as well that we don't have really any
[kel]: data that suggests that these psychiatric drugs these s s r is have any positive [kel]: impact and almost overwhelming evidence that suggests that they can and will create harm [beverley_thomson]: absolutely absolutely and i think the thing that we have to think about especially with [beverley_thomson]: child now with children is it's moral issue isn't it we have already said that [beverley_thomson]: these these drugs change your brain change the structure of your brain who has the
[beverley_thomson]: right to do that to their child who has the right to change their child's [beverley_thomson]: brain [kel]: yeah yeah i don't i don't understand that i guess i agree with with roger [kel]: i think based off of the experience that i had it's almost as if a [kel]: parent may not be able have enough stand up for themselves at the very moment [kel]: that they are told this is the only solution and i think that [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: yeah go ahead
[beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry and i was if you think about [kel]: i [beverley_thomson]: it from [kel]: don't [beverley_thomson]: from a cultural perspective they've already parents have already brought into this idea that you [beverley_thomson]: know here's a drug and the drug will fix you so [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: it's the first thing that they're going to do they haven't questioned it for themselves [beverley_thomson]: so why are they going to question it for [kel]: m
[beverley_thomson]: their child [kel]: so beverly one of the the areas and i think we're touching on the fact [kel]: that a lot of parents just don't understand right they trust their doctors in terms [kel]: of the research that you've done in some of the resource you provided um in [kel]: the back of your book what [beverley_thomson]: yes [kel]: are what do you feel is the most appropriate place to send a parent who
[kel]: at this point might be considering or it's maybe being forced upon them where they [kel]: can go and really just get a nonjudgemental view of what others are seeing out [kel]: there that they can read themselves [beverley_thomson]: yeah it's difficult isn't [kel]: yes [beverley_thomson]: it [kel]: it is [beverley_thomson]: it's really difficult because we have to one of the things that we have to [beverley_thomson]: take [kel]: oh
[beverley_thomson]: into account is for you it's even more difficult because you have farmer advertising on [beverley_thomson]: your t v screen [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: every how [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: many seconds of the day but you know it's really hard to find information that [beverley_thomson]: a reliable information you can trust without being biassed because everyone who they will meet
[beverley_thomson]: whether it being an educational environment whether it be you know their friends whether well [beverley_thomson]: have already brought into this notion so you know what roger and i are trying [beverley_thomson]: to do and we're trying to change this concept were trying to change but this [beverley_thomson]: is not easy this is not easy and and i hope that my book which [beverley_thomson]: i did try to write an accessible way and i didn't try i didn't use
[beverley_thomson]: medical language or academic language so i really it will be you know a starting [beverley_thomson]: point and [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: other people will write similar books to [kel]: hm [beverley_thomson]: that that can really help people yeah i'm hoping that education will be a place [beverley_thomson]: where we really start to see see this changing but you know i'm in the
[beverley_thomson]: highlands of scotland and i think it's very different where you are you know we're [beverley_thomson]: bombarded with messages aren't we on social media in the media about our mental health [beverley_thomson]: about deserving parity with our physical health and you have a right to take a [beverley_thomson]: drug you want to [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: how we're going to change it [kel]: that's [beverley_thomson]: we're going to try i'm going to try [kel]: it
[beverley_thomson]: but [kel]: and getting conversations like this out is one step but you're right there's an enormous [kel]: amount of advertising especially for all these new um absolutions where someone could immediately go [kel]: and answer a few questions and get access to an anti depressing medication through the [kel]: mail is [beverley_thomson]: m [kel]: to me i interpreted as if the medical community and a lot of doctors are
[kel]: becoming more aware of the long term effects and the side effects and the harm [kel]: it's being done that one way to get around that is to remove the doctors [kel]: from the process and just go direct to consumer which is [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: to me i'm going to be a whole another level of aware is that needs [kel]: to get out there [beverley_thomson]: yeah i think i think one of the problems in terms of children that i
[beverley_thomson]: really really i'm so worried about is you know a lot of children are now [beverley_thomson]: put on these drugs at such a young age and when they become adults they're [beverley_thomson]: already dependent on these drugs and if they don't have the knowledge about these drugs [beverley_thomson]: and the information that they shouldn't stop these drugs suddenly or you know they need [beverley_thomson]: to be informed about the harms that they can do we are seeing and i
[beverley_thomson]: haven't the you now the evidence of it we're seeing the suicide rates for example [beverley_thomson]: in university is rocket and that's because the kids on these drugs o move away [beverley_thomson]: from the security of their parents the usual prescribe the they go away to university [beverley_thomson]: they go i don't need this drug they stopped taking it [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: this is dangerous
[kel]: yea this is a good direction to get into because we are seeing these increasing [kel]: rates of suicide events and many people are attributing that to a need for mental [kel]: health intervention which [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: is more psychometric drugs and there they're unknowingly um you know making comments that you [kel]: know when one stops their drug it is as there is evidence that that mental
[kel]: health condition is returning that depression is returning what do we expect to happen if [kel]: somebody abruptly stops taking psychiatric gs that they were prescribed [beverley_thomson]: yeah no one should ever abruptly stop taking psychiatric drugs unless it's on the advice [beverley_thomson]: of a g p and there is specific reason for it but so if we [beverley_thomson]: look at what happened when we take these drugs so we have a normal normal
[beverley_thomson]: balance state without the drug as soon as we start to take the drug [beverley_thomson]: as we've said these drugs act on our brain chemistry and our normal state is [beverley_thomson]: becomes different so eventually if we take this drug to a period of time we [beverley_thomson]: achieve a new balance state okay might not be a great balance state it might [beverley_thomson]: be one with adverse effects it might be we achieve a new balance state so
[beverley_thomson]: as soon as you reduce or stop taking these drugs especially if you do it [beverley_thomson]: abruptly this balance tate becomes very unbalanced and that can be psychologically and it can [beverley_thomson]: be physiologically as well [kel]: is [beverley_thomson]: so [kel]: i [beverley_thomson]: this is why we have such increasing cases of acesier because people are stopping these
[beverley_thomson]: drugs so suddenly and becoming so unbalanced and this is really really incredibly anjerous and [beverley_thomson]: it's something that i think acesier is the one thing that in particular we need [beverley_thomson]: more people to understand [kel]: i was going to ask you can you discuss a little it because in your [kel]: book you have you have a pretty big section of it and then you also [kel]: describe the there are four types can you tell us a little bit about that
[beverley_thomson]: yeah so acts is a neurological drug induced condition and it's not just antprescente there [beverley_thomson]: are other drugs that can induce this state so i think i describe it and [beverley_thomson]: a lot of people have said to me we jokingly say sometimes i'm losing my [beverley_thomson]: mind these people literally lose their mind and they lose control of their mind so
[beverley_thomson]: they have constant intrusive thoughts it's really interesting and really quite heartbreaking that most of [beverley_thomson]: these thoughts that these people have really funny though isn't it they don't have happy [beverley_thomson]: thoughts they don't go and line the beach to have it's lying on the beach [beverley_thomson]: somewhere or you know going to their favorite restaurant or they have thoughts of most
[beverley_thomson]: two common ones are there have sorts of killing themselves they have thoughts of killing [beverley_thomson]: someone else [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: and those acts those are the two most constant and people [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: end up killing themselves when they have acathesia there are two different ways so the [beverley_thomson]: first is they have such such incredibly awful symptoms that be restless restlessness or agitation
[beverley_thomson]: or pain or that they literally can't stand them any more and they choose to [beverley_thomson]: kill themselves and the second one is it's not so much that they choose to [beverley_thomson]: kill themselves actually fight to stay alive but these intrusive voices these intrusive voices get [beverley_thomson]: to the point where they actually give in the voice is that i to the [beverley_thomson]: voice that is telling them to kill themselves
[kel]: and i think the challenge especially with young people is there not always the most [kel]: disciplined of people so it's very easy to miss a dose or if you're at [kel]: university and you start you know eating or drinking alcohol or you have some sleep [kel]: disruption there's we see then that those severe adverse consequences can occur and younger people [kel]: like high school students and i hear this quite frequently if they if they miss
[kel]: a dose or you know they've been they've been ill or sick and they stopped [kel]: taking it for a couple of days reaction to those drugs it can be so [kel]: severe that [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: their parents actually believe that that is evidence of a chemical and balance that requires [kel]: the drug for for life and they do not understand that the drug self or [kel]: the withdrawal [beverley_thomson]: as caused [kel]: effect of [beverley_thomson]: it
[kel]: that drug creates those exact symptoms i wanted to bring up [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: the tad's study because it is front line care here in the united states that [kel]: when a teenager is experiencing suicidal idiation hand that could just be thoughts or it [kel]: could be self injury and they are admitted into a psychiatric hospital or they're in [kel]: some form of out patient treatment it is believed that in anti depression should be
[kel]: a front line treatment for such a condition what does the science and what does [kel]: our research say you talked about the tad's study [beverley_thomson]: oh i can't even this is really you got cut me off guard here i [beverley_thomson]: should i should actually know this but i think that the thing that we can [beverley_thomson]: take from it is that real life patients as opposed to the research participants the
[beverley_thomson]: adverse effects were much more frequent much more serious and much more long lasting than [beverley_thomson]: they were in the research [kel]: yeah i do [beverley_thomson]: patients [kel]: i have some data on this i just pulled it up to so you go [kel]: ahead watch twenty two percent of [beverley_thomson]: hm [kel]: adolescence on an s s or i had a suicide event compared to six point [kel]: seven percent [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: of those not taking drug
[beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: we also know [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: in short term farm clinical trials um teams on the drugs were more than twice [kel]: as likely to become suicidal [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: compared to placebo so here we are [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: we actually see in clinical practice that doctors are prescribing a drug that's going to [kel]: increase suicideality and at this point isn't it can we just say that evidence based
[kel]: mental health care is just a yeah [beverley_thomson]: it's an absolute miss an absolute miss and you know everyone i say everyone and [beverley_thomson]: that's a big statement but just about everyone who ends up in some kind of [beverley_thomson]: clinic setting for their mental health will be prescribed more drugs [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: it goes without saying there are never solutions that don't involve [kel]: yes
[beverley_thomson]: drugs or very rarely solutions that don't involve drugs [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: and that's so sad isn't it [kel]: it's very sad in your opinion should children are adolescence um be prescribed anti to [kel]: presence in any circumstances i mean we do have to shiat the conversation to any [kel]: perceived benefits but in your opinion is there any situation where young people should be [kel]: taking and into presence
[beverley_thomson]: well i can i think i can only speak about that from my my personal [beverley_thomson]: view as a mother would i give my child anti presence never never [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: no and i suppose you know you can think about it from the perspective that [beverley_thomson]: you know i know a lot more about these drugs than most people and i've [beverley_thomson]: heard a lot more know experiences of young people who taken these drugs but would
[beverley_thomson]: i give my child antitepressance never [kel]: beverly i feel obligated to ask had you not done this research and written this [kel]: book and grew interested in the subject and so and your child was struggling would [kel]: your approach have been the same or do you feel like you're just more aware [kel]: and more knowledgeable now [beverley_thomson]: yes i think i don't [kel]: eh [beverley_thomson]: think i would have ever medicated my child to be honest [kel]: okay
[beverley_thomson]: i have always been my personal approach as i have always taught my child speak [beverley_thomson]: talk about what's going wrong to make help him understand that life changes very quickly [beverley_thomson]: especially for young people and what is happening you know this week might have changed [beverley_thomson]: in a month's time and normally things move very quick so i don't think i [beverley_thomson]: would have to be honest
[kel]: okay joanna moncreefe spoke about the perceived benefits of anti depressant use and she blogged [kel]: about it i think the primary one is is optimism or hope so it's the [kel]: idea that taking a drug in itself if you are really suffering can provide that [kel]: placebo response and i think the second one that she generally speaks about is the [kel]: emotional numbing or blunting of the drug can for a small percentage of people be
[kel]: interpreted as something that is actually believing or positive and so i just imagine that [kel]: there are some people who are in such intense negative pain some form of emotional [kel]: blunting might be interpreted as helpful [beverley_thomson]: hm [kel]: but but then again when we look at the adverse consequences the question is always [kel]: for how long because the brain is going to eventually adapt as you well said
[kel]: and then what are the you know the potential long term effects of such a [kel]: decision [beverley_thomson]: yeah well first of all you know i never say i never said that people [beverley_thomson]: shouldn't take these drugs it's everyone's right to take these drugs if they choose to [beverley_thomson]: that is entirely up to them but what i do so say is everybody should [beverley_thomson]: be informed about these drugs slightly different okay let's address one one well we'll address
[beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect first you know i suppose the question is you know is is [beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect is that justification for taking powerful psycho active drugs my opinion probably [beverley_thomson]: not um these powerful drugs also if you think about it an no [kel]: don't [beverley_thomson]: one knows how long it takes for somebody to become dependent on these drugs so
[beverley_thomson]: if you choose to take these because as have a numbing effect and might help [beverley_thomson]: you in a few months you know over a few months or again is it [beverley_thomson]: worth the risk i don't think it is personally to be honest you know i [beverley_thomson]: had an interesting conversation with nick for tino recently about this and you know that [beverley_thomson]: lots of other things that we can do to help ourselves through very difficult times [kel]: a
[beverley_thomson]: and to me taking pychotropic psycho active powerful drugs it's not the answer [kel]: so you're a huge proponent of people giving themselves a lot of time to heal [kel]: naturally and for that to happen they would need to alter some of their life [kel]: activities as a char in this kind of system that we have at least in [kel]: the u s a lot of a lot of students over the course of years
[kel]: i've seen go through they've gotten their diagnoses they've gone on medication parents have then [kel]: um when the medication either didn't work or they started to see those kind of [kel]: side effects then they went into another medication and so on and i feel like [kel]: just i was when i was reading your book i'm like you know if you [kel]: allow people time to heal they're going to have to make some changes in their
[kel]: lives and then young kids and students high school student in particular they don't have [kel]: the capability to make changes because the system doesn't allow to make any changes [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: so they struggle [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: and have to enter that same environment day after day and it's extremely difficult for [kel]: them to make any real change that could actually help them mentally what do you
[kel]: say o those parents whose those students who believe they've exhausted the weight and and [kel]: then they're like this is the only thing we can do is turn to medication [beverley_thomson]: well first of all i'm not a psychologist so you know i can't give advice [beverley_thomson]: as to what what [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: i personally think that that should they should do but you know e's study in [beverley_thomson]: my [kel]: and
[beverley_thomson]: book i think it was two thousand six brand verse to that looked at the [beverley_thomson]: fact that you know eighty five per cent of people recover who have a depressive [beverley_thomson]: episode recover within one year without any treatment whatsoever so i think for children yes [beverley_thomson]: it is more difficult because the social circumstances that they find themselves are tough it's [beverley_thomson]: tough for kids nowadays isn't it [kel]: oh absolutely
[beverley_thomson]: it's not easy it's tough you know there is no getting away from it but [beverley_thomson]: it was like we were talking about before unless the system changes then how are [beverley_thomson]: we going to help these kids [kel]: haven't we altered our understanding of what depression is if you look historically [beverley_thomson]: m [kel]: depression as as a really severe impairing condition was quite rare and in actuality almost
[kel]: everybody is going to go through something in their lifetime in some episode but now [kel]: we're describing the normal ranges of adversity as a met al illness and really it's [kel]: kind [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: of industry driven and it's it's media driven hasn't that altered the way that we [kel]: we think about our own struggles over the normal course of a lifetime [beverley_thomson]: absolutely well we only have to listen to children and young people when they talk
[beverley_thomson]: on t v and the language that they now use and if you listen to [beverley_thomson]: children talking on t v how often do they use the word anxiety i'm anxious [beverley_thomson]: how often do they use the word i think i'm depressed i think i had [beverley_thomson]: a panic [kel]: this [beverley_thomson]: i think this has just become part of their life that they accept is going [beverley_thomson]: to happen [kel]: yes
[beverley_thomson]: to them at be honest you know how are we going to change that because [beverley_thomson]: we're fighting so many were fighting the media that's for sure absolutely fighting the media [beverley_thomson]: and this is a political issue isn't it you know kids live with homelessness they [beverley_thomson]: live with poverty they live with parents who are unemployed parents who take drugs and
[beverley_thomson]: it's hard for them it's very good telling a child who is to be resilient [beverley_thomson]: but in lots of circumstances [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: i used to teach program called resilient kids and i remember i was in a [beverley_thomson]: class room with you know i think there was eight seven eight year old and [beverley_thomson]: i was talking about resilience and how they needed to be resilient and how they
[beverley_thomson]: and then i was driving home after i taught this class and i started to [beverley_thomson]: cry and i thought to myself i have just [kel]: yes [beverley_thomson]: been telling a child who i know [kel]: a [beverley_thomson]: is going home who i know there is heroine in the house who i know [beverley_thomson]: has no food who i know won't get breakfast tomorrow before they come i have [beverley_thomson]: just been telling her to be resilient [kel]: m m
[beverley_thomson]: how can i do that [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: how do [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: i have the right to do that so these are these are these are political [beverley_thomson]: issues and you know it's great for you know [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: the politicians to say oh well it's their mental health but actually it's not it's [beverley_thomson]: all the cycle things that they should be addressing and fixing to make us happier [kel]: beverly how many children did you raise
[beverley_thomson]: one [kel]: you have one so tell me and you taught this class also how do you [kel]: raise a [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: resilient child yeah [beverley_thomson]: well i think i was very lucky in that i had a child who is [beverley_thomson]: very sporty [kel]: hm [beverley_thomson]: it was quite a talented socker player and he was very active and he was [beverley_thomson]: very fit and he loved being out doors and he hated reading by the way [beverley_thomson]: but he loved
[kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: kicking a football [kel]: oh [beverley_thomson]: round um and i think i was just fortunate that i didn't have a child [beverley_thomson]: who really ever had any issues with friendship or with i was lucky i was [beverley_thomson]: fortunate i really was and this isn't the norm this really isn't the norm [kel]: m i think when you speak about that child who has to go home into [kel]: an environment maybe it's a broken home or there's you know there's drug addiction or
[kel]: there's violence it's the community supports it's that school system it's people who take an [kel]: interest in that person who show that that child some love and support and encouragement [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: and when we start labeling kids like that [beverley_thomson]: ah [kel]: as a d h d or that they have depression then we start medicalizing and [kel]: drugging normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions and that's really the disappointing [beverley_thomson]: yep
[kel]: thing that's kind of evolved in our society because if we're going to be if [kel]: we're gonna be better as a community we're gonna be better as health care professionals [kel]: that we have to understand what is the normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions [kel]: and not medicalize those responses but yet know how to support them nurture them and [kel]: then ultimately [beverley_thomson]: s [kel]: then build those those skills in resilience when they get of an age where they
[kel]: have more independence [beverley_thomson]: absolutely i totally agree but you know and i'm as much as we can we [beverley_thomson]: need to sport children and some of the programs that now put into schools a [beverley_thomson]: fantastic programs but he don't work for every child they really don't work for every [beverley_thomson]: child and we need a more personalized approach for children who really are going through [beverley_thomson]: difficulties
[kel]: we have a different medical system here in the united states the u k from [kel]: what i understand is more of a universal health care system so the government is [kel]: much more involved in the treatment of their citizens you have worked with the scottish [kel]: government i think you've also consulted and worked with the u k council for evidence [kel]: based psychiatry the british medical association i am fascinating ly curious about how medical professionals [kel]: and government
[beverley_thomson]: m [kel]: view psychiatric drugs in your region [beverley_thomson]: oh in my region well in scotland we have the highest antipressent prescribing rates in [beverley_thomson]: the u k i was on a news and culture programme recently because the media [beverley_thomson]: here are so concerned about the over prescribing of young people over prescribing avanti presence [beverley_thomson]: to young people in scotland and this as you just said a political decision so
[beverley_thomson]: we started a petition in scotland i think it was in two thousand and seventeen [beverley_thomson]: and we asked the scottish government i think it's the first one that's ever been [beverley_thomson]: done at we asked the scottish government to look at how they can help people [beverley_thomson]: who have been harmed by dependent on scribe medication i sat on a strategic strategy [beverley_thomson]: group for gave lots of my time and did so much work and guess what
[beverley_thomson]: happened sing [kel]: h m [beverley_thomson]: nothing absolutely nothing [kel]: why do you think that is [beverley_thomson]: and we because it suits doesn't it the status cost suits isn't it easier to [beverley_thomson]: give a prescription than to try and invest in you know the ways that we [beverley_thomson]: can actually help young people nowadays it's just easier still to let people believe that
[beverley_thomson]: it's their fault there's something wrong with them it's their brain that's broken and it's [beverley_thomson]: not the system [kel]: feel like the campaign we need is just to empower parents to say the word [kel]: no you go to a doctor [beverley_thomson]: absolutely [kel]: and a doctor is starting to say these things the parents first response has to [kel]: be no there has to be something else well we've talked about this in our
[kel]: podcast i don't know if you're aware of this beverley in he united states are [kel]: hospital systems which pretty much own all our primary care doctors and the primary care [kel]: facilities in our regions they are man dating administration of screening measures and they usually [kel]: very poorly constructed screening measures like the p h q nine [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: and so each [beverley_thomson]: oh
[kel]: die there is man dated to provide this to children adolescence and even adults as [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: a screening measure [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: which is highly sensitive and it's going to over diagnose most people [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: with clinical depression and that then opens the pathway to a prescription drug so i [kel]: know on social medium myself i've outspoken resist taking these screening measures parents do not
[kel]: let your kids take these screening measures [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: my goodness trust yourself you're going [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: to know if your kid is really really struggling and then you have to trust [kel]: your own instinct about what you're your would need hm [beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely but you know and if we could educate parents about what these drugs [beverley_thomson]: actually do and they knew about the harms that they could cause and they would
[beverley_thomson]: they would be they would be thinking twice about giving children these drugs it's not [beverley_thomson]: you know life's hard for parents and parents too isn't it it's not easy but [beverley_thomson]: drugging children is not the answer [kel]: yeah so great [beverley_thomson]: and these re we're starting to actually introduce screening programs as well in some parts [beverley_thomson]: of the u k and you know we're told to [kel]: oh
[beverley_thomson]: problem means that i think a lot of the time screening is done really subconsciously [beverley_thomson]: especially by prescribers you know they don't actually get the screen out you know they [beverley_thomson]: don't actually get the gad seven or the phkding out and they do ask you [beverley_thomson]: specific questions but their programme to do it [kel]: there's no doubt [beverley_thomson]: a programme did
[kel]: so there's a great quote that begins one of the chapters and it ends with [kel]: this everybody who made the commercial because it was talking you were talking about big [kel]: farm and commercials and advertisements has a financial interest in your future ehavior and that [kel]: is so [beverley_thomson]: yep [kel]: telling and i wish more people would understand that part of this narrative that we've
[kel]: now seen for the last thirty forty years it's funny because our government officials here [kel]: are constantly high lighting things like it's national mental health month you know we have [kel]: a mental health crisis but the one thing that they could probably do right now [kel]: to improve everyone's mental health is to put a ban on advertising of these of [kel]: these would you grue hat
[beverley_thomson]: yeah i absolutely you know taking medic these drugs and medication this medication isn't keeping [beverley_thomson]: us healthy it's not keeping us healthy it's making our society sicker and i think [beverley_thomson]: you know [kel]: a [beverley_thomson]: i don't know whether you're spoken to m i had brain freezing [kel]: h [beverley_thomson]: um [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: and you know he's spoken for a long time by the fact that you know
[beverley_thomson]: mental health messages are moving is sicker they really are making a sicker as a [beverley_thomson]: society we need to change the narrative don't we [kel]: absolutely we certainly do and i'd like to come up with some you know helpful [kel]: solutions for that for that next step one of the things that's really important we [kel]: talk about messaging around to health is the more that you are focused and attentive
[kel]: on your internal experience and the judgment of that everything that i understand about emotion [kel]: regulation the judgment the invalidation and the distortion of our internal experience creates much more [kel]: distress so although we have all these decreased stigma campaigns and you must focus on [kel]: your mental health everything i know about creating a life worth living and dealing with
[kel]: the complex emotions that we have is to direct our attention outward away from ourselves [kel]: into our world you spoke about your son and with football and athletics and connection [kel]: with nature that's with the relationships that we nurture in our health it's getting back [kel]: to developing a purpose in our lives the more you focus on yourself the more [kel]: miserable you're going to be [beverley_thomson]: yeah you talked about there you know and i don't know you talk about a
[beverley_thomson]: lot about you having a life worth living and having a these drugs [kel]: no [beverley_thomson]: aren't giving most people who take them a life worth living on for many people [beverley_thomson]: they're just the start many problems and i talked a lot but my book about [beverley_thomson]: now medically on explained symptoms and people then being given for the diagnoses and then
[beverley_thomson]: people being drugged further just just five minutes in a prescriber's office can be the [beverley_thomson]: start as a lifelong psychiatric patient five minutes for something that is you know you [beverley_thomson]: lost your job girl friend left you oh yes can be the start of a [beverley_thomson]: journey as a lifelong psychiatric patient this is sad i is really sad [kel]: yeah unfortunately these drugs are being more widely prescribed to conditions that they weren't even
[kel]: initially evaluated for chronic pain [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: is an example anarexia where we know the food is the actual medicine being eating [kel]: there's drugs being provided for the elderly in homes or just for being lonely now [kel]: they're putting people lawn on prescription drug [beverley_thomson]: loneliness as you know an epidemic [kel]: yes [beverley_thomson]: it really is an epidemic and you know it's so easy to drug especially the
[beverley_thomson]: elderly when it comes to when when they are only on [kel]: it's [beverley_thomson]: it's [kel]: to [beverley_thomson]: so sad really isn't it that we aren't giving the elder leader the passion and [beverley_thomson]: the compassion and the what they deserve instead we're drugging them drugging them [kel]: i realize the simple thing you can do [beverley_thomson]: s [kel]: for anyone who's who's older is just sit down with them and have a conversation
[kel]: i could sit down with my grandfather who's now going to be turning ninety four [kel]: years old and he could talk talk and talk and that would make his day [beverley_thomson]: hm [kel]: is to just tell you the stories and the wisdom that he accumulated through all [kel]: those years nd you know you get a lot out of it yourself to just [kel]: even betting up old photographs and i tell you the same [beverley_thomson]: yeah
[kel]: story over and over again like my mom loves doing that you know that's that's [beverley_thomson]: it's a it's a system again isn't it you know it's it's much cheaper and [beverley_thomson]: cost effective to give somebody a cheap generic drug it is to employ people [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: to walk [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: with these people it's much too per and easier [kel]: yeah it's almost like if we got visited by highly evolved beings from another planet
[kel]: one of the things that they would be kind of critical of our culture is [kel]: how the elderly are treated the ones with the most amount of wisdom seem to [kel]: have the least value and in our society it really is a western culture is [kel]: really a society and culture for young people you know it's about it's about fame [kel]: and it's about achievement and it's about you know living your best life and there's [kel]: so many though whether it's the social [beverley_thomson]: ah
[kel]: media marketing and and those who really know put themselves out there it's like there's [kel]: a worship of young impulsive stupid behavior at the expense of the wisdom of elders [beverley_thomson]: it's almost like when you have no longer have any cultural value just drug [kel]: a [beverley_thomson]: you and forget about you [kel]: yeah and [beverley_thomson]: but these people do have cultural value they have a great deal to add to
[beverley_thomson]: to society and a great deal to contribute and you know we shouldn't be drugging [beverley_thomson]: elderly [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: society [kel]: yeah i would say there's a lot we can learn from a lot of other [kel]: cultures especially central america a lot of the asian countries and even in some countries [kel]: in europe is the importance of this household of the generations of family raising one [kel]: another because there's lessons [beverley_thomson]: hm
[kel]: that can be learned and that [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: wisdom gets passed down to multiple generations and things that a grandmother would say to [kel]: you at a young just can stick with you for years and then you pass [kel]: it on to the generation afterwards i often reflect back on here in the united [kel]: states why we've lost this way when it comes to diet and some of the [kel]: medicinal benefits of certain meals and the way things are cooked because we came here
[kel]: and we often didn't have that grandmother of that grandfather with us a lot of [kel]: us immigrated in our twenties and then we were on our own trying to figure [kel]: things out and we just kind of fell into this industrial country and we just [kel]: had our own solutions we lost out on that wisdom and now we're finding it [kel]: through the internet but we need to bring our grandparents back into the house an
[kel]: live with us you talk about self sufficiency and resiliency and those key things being [kel]: gone and in younger generations not able to think for themselves i think that you [kel]: hit a very good point there the families are kind of you know if there's [kel]: more and more families that are breaking apart there's more and more people that are [kel]: putting their they're putting [beverley_thomson]: frozen [kel]: more emphasis on work you know their careers [beverley_thomson]: yeah
[kel]: and things like that but as you said it's part of the system once again [kel]: we're a country [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: of large [beverley_thomson]: absolutely [kel]: empty homes [beverley_thomson]: and i think that if you i think i [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: write about it at the end of my book you know the the phmacytical industry's [beverley_thomson]: next target [kel]: ah [beverley_thomson]: market market is asia pacific and [kel]: yeah
[beverley_thomson]: that's the fastest growth up to i think twenty twenty seven projected so i have [beverley_thomson]: a friend who is from lanka and i taught to him a lot about you [beverley_thomson]: know my work and he laughs he really laughs we've been through this we've been [beverley_thomson]: through that we've we've coped with this what is wrong with you people [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: mind you if we look at what we look at what's going on right now
[beverley_thomson]: in solancathey are having an awful lot to go through [kel]: so right [beverley_thomson]: but but again it's [kel]: they are [beverley_thomson]: it's a cultural perspective isn't you know it's how how they think they should try [beverley_thomson]: to deal with things before they turn to farmasitical drugs [kel]: i agree beverly i was hoping that there's somewhat of an awakening that is occurring [beverley_thomson]: oh [kel]: worldwide [beverley_thomson]: yeah
[kel]: with these drugs but then i look at the numbers and i look at how [kel]: many anti depressents are prescribed you have any data on what how many how many [kel]: anti depressents are currently being prescribed [beverley_thomson]: well i think in the in england alone where up to eight point three million [beverley_thomson]: people who take an presence [kel]: h [beverley_thomson]: um [kel]: m [beverley_thomson]: i think the last statistics that i had i think fortifive million people in the
[beverley_thomson]: states or around that who take antistepresses [kel]: yeah that's unbelievable that's just how normalized it has become and i think a take [kel]: home message [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: here is there's no such thing as a magic pill folks and this pill comes [kel]: with really potential for severe adverse consequences and when we're talking about age ranges when [kel]: we're talking about those under the age of twenty five likely based on the rapid
[kel]: changes of that developmental stage and the rapid brain changes that occur the adverse consequences [kel]: are much much greater it is [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: now time that you start asking very serious questions to your diatritians primary care doctors [kel]: and your psychiatrists one of the questions i want everybody to ask especially to a [kel]: psychiatrist or or a g p would you take this drug yourself would you prescribe
[kel]: this drug to your own child or adolescent given the situations that they're going through [kel]: right now what are the adverse consequences ask those questions i understand that there could [kel]: be two and a half times greater likelihood of suicide compared to a placebo if [kel]: we're talking about this drug predominantly having a placebo effect why don't you just give [kel]: him a sugar pill why not something else you know these are really important questions
[kel]: that you have to ask medical professionals because i think blind faith in the medical [kel]: authority it's over this time has ended and these are the this is the type [kel]: of book that you want to use as a resource because what it does it [kel]: provides [beverley_thomson]: kay [kel]: very compelling accounts from real people whose lives have been harmed by prescription anti depressant [kel]: it provides very clear scientific data and evidence that there is no such thing as
[kel]: a magic pill and we can no gor pretend otherwise because there are many people [kel]: out there that've been on these drugs way beyond any period that they've been studied [kel]: and they need our help we need study on future research on how to safely [kel]: taper off these drugs and understand what type of supplements or ancillary treatment that can [kel]: maybe relieve the symptoms of withdraw more importantly we have to prevent the next generation [kel]: of going down a similar path
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think it's important that we remind everybody these drugs have an f [beverley_thomson]: d a black box warning for people under twenty five in terms of [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: efficacy and suicidality if that's the case why do [kel]: ah [beverley_thomson]: we go a doctor and have prescribed to our child [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: or a young person in our family a drug that has an f d a [beverley_thomson]: black box warning
[kel]: great point yeah beverly what do you have going on now is there another book [kel]: that you're starting to write what the things are you doing professionally [beverley_thomson]: yeah you love the title of this one [kel]: yeah [beverley_thomson]: it's it's called the united state of anxiety [kel]: oh boy [beverley_thomson]: the good old u s a [kel]: there you go let's end that conversation but i don't like being attacked
[beverley_thomson]: yes the united states it's about benzoteaspens primarily but yeah [kel]: excellent [beverley_thomson]: think the good us [kel]: m yeah unfortunately we are leading the world and in this and the prescription drug [kel]: market and mental health problems but it is unfortunately exactly what we see every day [kel]: in clinical practice it's it's that it's [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: that worry it's that overwhelming fear that is certainly provoked by our media and it's
[kel]: provoked by our government you can understand why we have such [beverley_thomson]: yeah [kel]: a mentally unwell nation right now where can [beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry you know i think you know guys like yourselves who are inviting people [beverley_thomson]: like me to to be able to talk about our work and talk about our [beverley_thomson]: experiences and most of all talk out you know the experiences of real people and
[beverley_thomson]: i think that's where where change is going to happen the more we hear about [beverley_thomson]: the experiences of real people [kel]: no doubt beverly how can people find you how can they buy your book [beverley_thomson]: they can find me on twitter at anti depressed one um they can buy my [beverley_thomson]: book on amazon or at any major book store or sorry book site not really [beverley_thomson]: book stores now [kel]: oh
[beverley_thomson]: we don't really have many book store book sites yeah and i am launching a [beverley_thomson]: website very soon so which will be called anti depressed and i hope that will [beverley_thomson]: help people and have lots of resources to [kel]: great beverley we really appreciate your coming on the program today yes thank [beverley_thomson]: thank [kel]: you [beverley_thomson]: you so much for inviting me it's really [kel]: hm [beverley_thomson]: nice to meet you all