Ghosts in the Shadows: Ghostwriting and the Hip Hop Ecosystem

Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Q Points podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel and my name. Is J. Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnny Ray Cornegay iii. And Sir Daniel, we are about to have a spooky conversation. That's right. You know, it's that time of year and the phantoms and ghouls are hiding out and the ghost writers are hanging out as well. That's right, ghost writing. Ghost writing is a recurring topic in hip hop circles.

Jerry and I have a theory as to why you want to hear it. Yes. Let's hear your theory first. All right, so check it. The early days of hip hop were not built on commercial success, right? In other words, album sales. Yes. Now, when MCs got the notion to pick up the mic and start battling each other, it was about showmanship, it was about crowd control and building your reputation around the way around the hood as like the best party rocking MC ever.

And at that time, the only way you could garner that type of respect was to write your own rhymes. And

so the forefathers and foremothers were not educated on the ways of the business of music. And that songs often have co creators. That was not their, their goal. They didn't know nothing about that. So

it was just all about who could rock the party the best and come up with their own rhymes. And that's where, that's what fuels this idea of if you're not writing your own rhymes, you're not a real mc. You know, you're absolutely right. And for, for, for the longest time, hip hop was kind of considered a man's game too. And you know,

men, it's all about competition. Right. So part of that idea of writing your own rhymes is also who's the best mc. It becomes like a whole thing. So you're absolutely correct. But what's really interesting about that idea is from the inception of hip hop as a commercial entity. Yep. There have always been, always y'all, other writers and creators on songs. So the most famous example, and this is at the very beginning. Yep. I'm going to read the lyric quote, check it out.

On the CAS and the ova and the rest is fly. It's a grandmaster cast line. Famously, as the story goes, there's a missing notebook somewhere. And all of a sudden this cast line ended up in rapper's delight. This is the first official hip hop commercial hit. Right. So at the very beginning. Now Kaz was an unwilling ghost writer. Right. Kaz ain't getting no check off of, off of Writing this rhyme. Right. He only knew that this happened because the song came out.

But so at the very beginning, there was always kind of this idea of, no, you just need to have a clever rhyme and whoever is going to make the best one of that, you get to have that joint on the song and somebody else can say it. That's right. And you know, you made a great point. You brought up the idea of manhood and being able to flex your manhood on the mic. And that, you know, creates another dichotomy within hip hop. Because of course, men weren't the only ones rapping.

You know, women came along and were doing their thing a lot of times a lot more vicious on the mic. And of course, you know, we all know the mythology and the folklore of Roxanne Shante being this young dynamo, 12, 13 years old, taking out the neighborhood MCS one by one, battling one by one. And she garnered that reputation so soon. She became real talk before as we. Get into that too.

I think it's also important to note in what you just said, battle rapping and writing a song are different things. And rappers talk about that. So Shantae is an absolute beast. Let's be really clear. Be clear. But battle rap and writing a song are two different kind of skill sets. So that's one. That's correct. That's correct. And she's been. She's gone on the record as saying that being in the studio was not her favorite thing. She was dead.

She definitely came from the era of being live on stage, being live in front of people and improvising on the spot. Her and Biz Markey, you know, that song Deaf Fresh Crew was

completely improvised. Was completely improvised. The her. A lot of her early singles were completely improvised, like Queen of Rocks and even her answer to the rock to Roxanne, Roxanne was improvised and it was later transcribed and she even had to re record her verses because they were off the top of her head.

So with that in mind, as she's growing in this industry, the industry now of music business, of the recording industry, and she's coming upon releasing her second album, you know, things have changed, the landscape has changed. We're in the early 90s and as the story goes, you know, there was a celebration for women in hip hop called Sisters in the Name of Rap, which was a very first pay per view rap. It wasn't the first, it was rap mania came first. And then Sisters in the Name of Rap.

It's supposed to be all women in rap, pay per view event. I was so excited. My mother was not giving up that 999 or whatever it was. Remember pay per View? Pay per View, baby. So she was not willing to do that. So I was

watching it and listening to it on Scrambled. I could. I could hear it, but I couldn't see it because it was Scrambled, y'all. Yeah, come on, y'all feel me. You know, if you old enough, you remember how that was. So anyway, as the. The legend goes, Shiny was seeing how all of these women were behaving towards her, were acting like they were better than. And she was like, you know, I. I gave birth to all of these mcs. You know, I mothered these. These girls, if you know, to.

To. To. To. To coin a phrase, I mothered all of y'all. And so that sparked this moment between her. Shantae versus everybody. Yes. And at that time, she was working directly with a. Another legend by the name of Granddaddy iu, who was also her label mate, a Juice crew member. And they've gotten that studio and produced probably one of the most scathing disc records ever. And we've talked about it on this show.

Yes. Called Big Mama. And Granddaddy IU is credited with writing this most vicious dis record. He wrote it, like, I'm pretty certain they, you know, ideas were bouncing off the walls and, you know, he was feeding off of her energy and, you know, the. Recalling the stories being backstage, like, this one wants a better dressing room. I gave birth to all of them mCs, and that becomes a line in the record. But Granddaddy iu, as a man, has written this verse, this. This record for this woman.

And you see a lot of that happening in hip hop, where men are penning rhymes for women. Herbie most famously has written a lot of these records for Salt and Pepper and so on and so on. And so it's just. I think it's just amazing that in this art called hip hop, where, you know, male bravado is. Is king and is put center stage all the time, that when women come on the mic, a lot of times they're not.

When it comes to the put presenting a record, they're not even allowed to put up put write their own verses. Like, there's a dude in the camp that says, you know what? Let me write this for you. This sounds better. Even though I'm pretty certain they had their own ideas in during the session. A lot of these records got written by most of the dudes, probably because they. They bogard their way into getting that credit and saying, now this sounds better. Say it this way.

Going back to that idea of, you know, the craft of a song is different, but I do think some of it is, you know, that natural male desire of wanting to have control, especially then, you know what I'm saying, in hip hop. But the idea of the ghost writer is one that I do remember, Sir Daniel, and I know you remember this as well, being like a. No, no. You never wanted to be accused of somebody else writing your rhymes. Even though in a lot of cases we could tell by people.

Certain people's flows that like, oh, that sounds like so and so. Oh, they're in the same crew together. Oh, that rhyme was probably written by whoever. Whoever. And it's funny how we've evolved. I think we've evolved as listeners. But yeah, when I was young, like, it was like, no, like you. You have to write your own rhyme. Right? It was a no, no. And so many people said it so often that they forgot that we could read the credits.

And even the ones that were professed that they wrote their own rhymes, a lot of other co writers would show up in the. In the liner notes for their rap. So it's like, okay, sure, you, you know, you wrote a lot of your stuff, but it's okay. You have a collaborator. And you know what? This topic comes up so much. Remy Ma addressed this topic on Ghost of Ghost Writing on an episode of the Math Hoffa show back in 2022. And in that moment, she kind of. She dead at it. Now. Remy Ma, she was.

She's always been one to say, I write my own rhymes. Can't nobody say it for me better than me. And she still believes that. But she says, but she says plainly

in this interview that it's really not that important in the grand scheme of things. She said it's not important. She used the, the example of Trina. She said, now Trina. Trina is may not be known for being lyrical, but Trina is Trina. Yes, yes. In this, in hip hop, Trina is Trina. In the music industry, she's a. She's a gold mine. She is respected. She's. She's a legend in the game because she is Trina.

So with that being said, in the grand scheme of things, writing your own rhymes is not that important. It's not that important. It's, you know, we're. We're beating a dead horse here. Yes. By. Keep. By still continuing to say and to profess that, you know, I don't have ghost writers as, as if it's a badge of honor in this day and age. We wanted to take some time and talk about three. Three confirmed ghost writers. But the songs that they've written are.

We really don't know, like, a lot of these. A couple of them I think we're, like, pretty sure of. But we wanted to just take some time and talk about three folks who you may or may not know. And the songs they may or may not have ghost written. Because they're in the background. They are in the background. So if I say the name Anthony Peaks, they probably won't ring a bell, right? No. But you definitely know who Apache is. Oh, I need a gangster with my. Yeah, exactly.

The. A New Jersey native, Apache was one of the foundation members of the hip hop collective known as the Flavor Unit. Yes, and the Flavor Unit is best known for legends including Mark the 45, King, Lakim Shabazz, Naughty by Nature, and of course, the princess of the posse, Queen Latifah. So as part of the crew, Apache honed his skills as an emcee and eventually landed his own record deal with Tommy Boy Records. And so he gifted us with.

With his classic and controversial hit, Gangster, which J. Ray was singing earlier. But what you're probably unaware of, listener, is that not only was Apache's Queen Latifah's bodyguard and roadie on a tour roadie, he was also a writer of two, not one, but two of her most prolific songs, Just Another Day and Ladies first, both songs juxtaposed to his hit Gangsta Yes, Our Day and Night deray in tone and. And subject

matter. And it's like it takes major talent to embody both masculine and feminine energy in rap lyrics and to make people feel inspired and motivated. Because Just Another Day is. Is a wonderful narrative about a day in the life in the hood. And. But the tone is very soft. It's very melodic. But. And Queen Latifah brings most. Most her energy into that song.

But I would have never guessed that on, you know, I Need a Gangster, you know, Apache was the one behind that because the tones are so different. But that's what makes you. That's what makes somebody a dope writer. And ladies first. I mean, come on, come on, come on. We would. You ever think in a million years that a man wrote that or participated in the, you know, collaborated in the writing of that? Absolutely. I would not have.

But of course, you know, of course, knowing hip hop, not at all surprising. But, yeah, Apache is absolutely a legend. And another legend. So the name is Donnie Shaquan Lewis, we know him as Mad Skills, who now goes by Skills, right? Primarily. But born in Detroit, raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina. This is important. Raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina, but spent his high school years in Richmond, Virginia.

So Skills has this interesting mix of experiences, but was really reared by the school of Run DMC as like a rapper. So interesting thing is, I think Skillz might have the quintessential nine mid to late 90s flow

in hip hop. Like, I feel like when you go back and you listen to Skills joints, you're like, oh, this is the perfect version of what hip hop in the 1990s sounded like on the east coast, right? It's just a perfect encapsulation of cadence and flow. Etc. I say that to say because it's ubiquitous. So when you think about the songs that Skills is alleged to have Ghost written, you're like, oh, I can't hear that. I can't hear that.

So Skills, before we get into the two songs that I want to mention, Skills is super famous

for a couple of things. The year end wrap up, which he was doing for like many years, but also in 2000 on raucous sidebar. We need to do a Raucous, I think, show at some point. That was a moment, for sure. That was a moment. In 2000 on Raucous, he released a song called Ghost Rider. Now, he doesn't name any mcs in the actual song, right? But there is an uncensored version where he was live and does name names. So here's the names that Skills mentions that he's written for Diddy.

Of course, he says Puff Daddy, then Foxy Brown, Mace, Will Smith and Jermaine Dupri. Now, he doesn't say any of this in the song. You can find it in a live version where he mentions this. And this is all alleged. This is a rapper. It's bravado. We don't know if any of this is true, but there are two songs. There are two people in this list that folks are pretty sure, like, no, no, no, no. I definitely wrote those.

I Need a Girl, Part one from Diddy from his first record, and then Lost and Found, which was the title track from Will Smith's I think this is like a 2005 album. And if you listen to both of those records, you can actually hear

Skills's flow in them. What's dope about Skills is he is highly respected. He's an industry veteran. There's a new picture of him and Q Tip together at the Rock and roll hall of Fame induction ceremony for A Tribe Called Quest. So there's tons and tons of interviews of him. So I suggest folks go and check it out because this is a man who has literally been able to have a career in hip hop, being behind the scenes for most of it, being a ghost writer.

Sidebar he spent some time on the road with Missy Elliot and his skill with Missy was he was like, yo, Missy was a studio rat. She didn't enjoy doing shows. So she would take me out there because I could remember lyrics. It's like Missy couldn't remember the lyrics. So Missy would do part of the song and then she would cue it to Skills to like finish the rap because he was like, he was like on off the Top of the Dome, he could remember stuff really easy.

So he toured with Missy when she was out doing shows in the like late 90s and early 2000s for like a long time. So for those of you that saw Missy back then, you probably saw Skills. On stage with her and he's still doing it most recently. I saw him with lakailey47 a couple years ago on her tour doing the same thing. So you're absolutely right. There's so much overlap within the industry. So Skills wrote for Diddy and there's another well known rapper who's written a lot for Diddy. Diddy.

Yes. And this gentleman. And it's so funny. Like he. I'm talking about Jason Terrence Phillips, but you all know him better as Jada Kiss. You know, Jadakiss is like inarguably one of the nicest. Yes. You know, when you hear those arguments of top feta, top five, dead or alive, Jadakiss is always in that argument because I mean, the man is dead.

Nice. Like that that locks versus dip set was just, I mean that if that didn't solidify his place on the Mount Rushmore of mcs, I don't know what else will because he completely obliterated that moment with cadence, with breath control. The punch lines was immaculate. It's just, you know, the freestyle game is wild. But Jada is not just a freestyle rapper. Jadakiss is nice with that pen.

Yes. And Jerry, you know, a lot of the songs that we danced to in the mid-90s, a lot of bad boy hits specifically were penned by your boy Jadakiss. Yes. Like Diddy Senorita. Yeah. Diddy's verse on Victory, he's alleged to have co written both Biggie and Mason's verse on More Money, More Problems. Yep. Like he's Done it all. He's done quite a bit for that label. And so that

makes me understand why, like they were really vehement about getting their money over there. Because it's like I built this house on the lyrics I wrote. Absolutely. And I want to also underscore too that this is not the case for Jadakiss, but for some mcs, you know, the industry is different, Right? You know what I'm saying? And it gravitates to certain personalities in a different way.

And I think it's dope when you have the combination of the too where a person is like, no, no, no, no, no. I can also write and I could be out front and I want to be out front. The thing about Skills is he's always been really clear. He's like, I'm not real. He was not real dead set about being the artist at the center of the stage on the mic. He could do that, but that wasn't like the main thing. Jadakiss, on the other hand, is interested in that and was good at doing it.

I also understand that concept as well of for many folks who write, this is the way that they earn a living, you know what I'm saying? Like, for whatever reason, the industry might not want them out front. Like might not be able to feel like they could sell it, right? But if you're a talented MC and you can write this idea of ghost, this idea of writing for other people might be a way to make money. Here's the problem though. The problem though is that short term money, right?

Unless your name is on the record and you are actually getting publishing from that song. And in many cases, these ghost writers names are nowhere to be found on a record, right? You don't know that they ghost wrote it. So if that's true, you may not be getting paid on the back end, right? So it's a wonderful thing to keep folks working for some folks that need to be. But I also question, you know, folks names not being on the record.

And we should also note real quick as we wrap that this is not exclusive to hip hop. That famous example we share from Andrea Martin, who basically ghost wrote Show Me Love, right? They was like, yo, we'll give you what, 300 or something crazy to be like, yo, if you could come up with a melody, like she's just doing the demo. If you could come up with a melody and if you could come up with a verse, we're gonna give you some extra money, right?

Her name ain't on that song, but she basically ghost wrote that song and. Saying the reference track. And the reference track. And I think that's the, I guess the, the, the reckoning that's happening now is like demo tracks and reference

tracks are leaking. So it's like people are hearing, oh, that's such and such. Oh, so they did write that they actually sang the reference track for your favorite hit record. And I want people, I want folks to go back and listen to our episode with Brian Patrick Davis when he describes what it's like being in the studio and how you can safeguard yourself in these instances of collaboration and making sure that you do get credit.

Now, some, a lot of these people didn't get credit because of the person they were working with. Just omitted their names because they could. Because they, they were scrupulous, unscrupulous, and had that kind of power. But then there are these other instances where you're collaborating. There needs to be split sheets created in that moment. And all of that you can find out in that episode with Brian Patrick Davis on our wonderfully large repertoire of shows here at Q Points podcast.

But real quick as we wrap up J Ray, can hip hop music release the stigma of ghost writing and fully embrace collaboration? I think so. I think we are in an interesting moment where folks have more of an appreciation for the importance of collaboration. So I do think it can. I think what it's going to come down to is can McS will have to find a new. Another dig right now, it could still be a dig if I might run. If I write my rhymes and you don't write your rhymes, that can be a dig. Right?

You know what I'm saying? But that person who doesn't write their rhymes also needs to be able to. To respond to that. I think at the end of the day, like Remy was talking about, I don't think it matters because it hasn't stopped making hits since the beginning. That's right. We've always had it. I think it's actually more important that we acknowledge ghostwriters so that they're not ghost writing at all.

I need these people's names on the credits so that their, them today and their families are reaping the benefits of the hard work that they did. And if we keep this idea of ghostwriters alive, we keep this music industry in the same perpetual cycle that it's in where people are dying penniless and they don't need to, because guess what? You wrote a hit song. You need to have your name on that song. So I feel like that's the fight. Like the fight is. No. No ghost writers. Everybody gets credit.

Come to find out, everybody ate. I don't think there's anything left to be said. Like, Jerry, you. You really stuck a pin in that. Thank you all for checking out this episode of Q Points Podcast. Jerry, just let the folks know how these ghost writers over here can. Can survive and keep putting out these. This wonderful project called Q Points Podcast. Yo, y'all. So if you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, thank you so much. We appreciate you.

Hit the subscribe button wherever you are. Also, if there's a notification bell, hit that too, so you can know when Cue Points drops. New stuff. Support us. We really appreciate it. You can buy us a coffee. We would really, really dig that. You can get additional content on our Patreon. Visit our website@coupoints.com where you can sign up for our newsletter and read our blog. Thank

you so much. We really appreciate y'all. Oh, like I say, at the end of every show in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel. My name is J. Ray, y'all, and. This has been Q Points Podcast Dropping the Needle on Black Music History. We'll see you on the next go round. Peace. Peace, y'all.