Religious Trauma

Hey y'all, this podcast contains potentially disturbing content.

Our show includes graphic references to topics such as sexual abuse, self-harm, violence, eating disorders, explicit language, and sexual acts. Listener discretion is advised. This show is for mature audiences only. Good morning and welcome back to another episode of the Queer LBC Podcast. I'm your host, Nino. My pronouns are he, him. Thank you for asking. I have with me here my fabulous cohorts. Yo, it's me, Christophe, your city top liaison. My pronouns are he, him, and that motherfucker.

Dr. Mikey here, your local, licensed, and practicing therapist for entertainment purposes only. My pronouns are he, she, all of them. So what's the T, sis? The T is... Today in Trans. LGBTQ plus activists and allies arrested during bathroom sit-in on Capitol Hill to protest anti-trans. Music.

Bill um today also in trans or should i say anti-trans nancy mace is a fucking crazy bitch also.

Also in valid bisexual identities the united healthcare ceo killer luigi everyone loves him, any other gay news any queens don't buy any of these things i'm sorry it's quick quick tea day today y'all yeah i hope you're not too thirsty i know uh are you in love are you guys in love with the with the murderer luigi luigi no yeah i mean he look like just any kind of like basic white boy right that's why he's getting confused by so many white boys right laughing my

ass off right but it's also like come on y'all have some dignity he has a message and but everybody is fucking lusting but nobody's listening to his manifesto and talking about how the fucking healthcare system is so fucked up but everybody is lusting over his fucking eyebrows and his fucking smile that ain't nobody caring caring about his manifesto in regards of him caring about the healthcare system for Americans versus,

one thing he did say is that like America is the first has the first like first ranking of healthcare in the world but the 42nd in regards of.

What's that word called like uh life life expectancy so how the fuck can we be number one in the health care the industry but everybody we're 42 in life expectancy what's the criteria for number one in health care because it's probably because we have probably have the most doctors probably the health care system like there's so many surgeons or like with experts and like the medical field and thesis and all that other shit but we are 42 in the country for life expectancy yeah

because i would definitely not describe america as number one in health care i mean right and my own experience of navigating it like it's ridiculous oh yeah it's very unnavigable which is not a word but you know what i mean yeah like when i got when i was trying to get diagnosed with lupus oh my god no one would listen to me and like all the Doctors would be like, they always tested me for HIV because they thought since I was gay that my symptoms

were HIV related because there's like a cross overlap. So no one really took me seriously. And then I had a medicine that was $500. And the only reason that I was able to get on it is because I was able to find a grant to get on the medication. Yeah. Damn, that's crazy. Yeah. So like Medicare, like healthcare systems are out here like killing people.

For real yeah and that was his main point of the reason because he also had a surgery that he had to maneuver through he had like a back surgery so it's just like he was fed the fuck up but no everybody over here listening to try to get that dick i mean you didn't have to read the manifesto to know what the hell he meant by shooting the goddamn guy no exactly because i mean and i feel like that's also the main reason why you're seeing everybody praise it because everybody does it is relatable as

fuck to everybody we are all very upset with how health care is yeah everybody's been crying for it for years and.

Then this happens and then yeah we are that's what we're gonna do we're gonna lust after his dick no i mean also like how many fucking people be murderers at all all the hours of the day get all this fame goes attention and love yeah but he's gypsy rose right he's gonna be on destiny the stars next but i i think you bring up a good good point christoph because it's like this is a moment where we can like bring about like class consciousness and like ban like come together over being not the

one percent and we're just floundering it by like looking at his washboard abs and smiles and all that right like i think there's space for that but like that shouldn't be the main thing and i feel that's maybe that's my own algorithm and me telling on myself but i i think like there's definitely a deeper meaning we all need to pay attention to well i definitely do feel like i see the mainstream media a lot because i see it on my because i have youtube is like my main form of

like videos that i watch and so like it does push like mainstream news media like stories to you from like wherever the fuck it wants to send them from and so there's lots of stuff that i'm seeing about the shooter and it's like all the news stories that i'm seeing the mainstream media are doing are like they're already painting him as guilty the end lock him up whatever and it's like do we actually even know this is really the guy.

Right right it's like we already like the media has already said that he's done and then we have diddy over here asking for bail like what is like the fucking point wow it's fucking bananas because one thing that i also noticed is that somebody said like oh black and brown women go missing or murdered all the time. But some white CEO get murdered and you find the motherfucking killer in a day. Well, you pay for justice. What did they do? They put a reward up, right? It was a $50,000 reward.

Yeah. And then they even fucked over the McDonald's employee. He may not even get the fucking reward. I'm glad. Wait, why? Because he called the cops instead of the hotline. He didn't read the fine print. Girl, bye. Reading is fundamental. Yeah. That's what you get. That's fine. I'm okay they're not getting, like, an award. Like, this, no. I mean, if you've already seen, like, what the repercussions were. It's like these, like, health places. What was that insurance place?

They already, like, went back on, like, their policy or some shit. Oh, yeah. And it's like, well. Yeah. Well, maybe this is the fuck. Like, I don't know what to say. Well, the. That's what we have to do. The company that the CEO worked for, they had 33% denial rates. And they literally just today made a statement in which they're saying that they're going to continue their practices as they have been.

And then they posted their job. So who the fuck want to stay with a company like that when the board says some bullshit like that? So you don't really give a fuck about your employees. You don't give a fuck about the people that's in your insurance. So like, why the fuck would I even want to be there? Literally, they're agreeing with the statistic as if they already know it's their statistic that they put there on purpose. Like, yeah, we do have that 33% and we're gonna keep it that way.

Like, oh, so it's not just... You aren't taking them all one by one. It's not all just happenstance. Right. Yeah. And then they continue the meeting after the shooting. Like, come on. They don't care about y'all. Girl, bye. Yeah. But I also saw today that in New York, there's posters going up of like, they're like wanted signs of CEOs in the healthcare system. Ooh. You know, New York, you're badass. I can't even. That's funny. I can't even. I'm here for it. Who did that?

I feel you know i like because there's that whole theory that he's not the shooter and there's like multiple people and the decoys and all that stuff like i heard that the word was that project mayhem 2025 which sounds very white that sounds very like a fight club you know but what is it what if it's like a bunch of white boys that look like each other who just happen to be like a little woke and they're just like creating all this mayhem and they're just planning all this bullshit.

I'm 100% behind it But is he actually a woke person? I've been seeing things Is he actually bisexual? I don't know That's what I heard That's what I heard I think everyone just wants him to be bi Because they want that dick Right? Because I've been seeing more stuff from women Saying that they knew him Yeah Right They don't sound like a real gay bisexual Yeah I mean I don't know Okay From what I heard.

He has a Republican cousin In the government Yeah He's in Arkansas i forgot yes he's in the senate somewhere where we're not welcomed i mean i don't know what that means because i got a lot of psycho republicans cousins myself that is true yeah there's a lot of things i heard that and i heard his family is tied to the health care system as well like they own and they made their money off of having like old folks homes or like skilled nursing homes for for people

where insurance pays for their stuff but yeah there's a lot of stuff floating around, very interesting i mean now look i will give credit when credit is due he is a very handsome individual but i'm not about to go on fucking lust lust over this motherfucker like how the gays have been doing i mean that's interesting well my comment no just like the way yeah like I guess that people are openly lusting for him. It's like they're trying to do this Robin Hood spin. Yeah.

It just gets dodgy because obviously he murdered somebody. But then you see so many people who... Disrespect dead people all the time? Like the Westboro Baptist Church, who disrespects gay people's funerals all the time. Is that not disrespectful to the dead? Ridiculing them all the time? I'm just saying. So why not let the people gonna cook? Let them eat. I'm like, I don't even know what I'm saying. Right. Let the girls cook.

But yeah, I just hope that And then also, I had looked at the screenshot of the first person when they said, this is the suspect. And his eyebrows, like, I don't know if people have been paying attention to that. It don't match. Yeah. That's what everyone's saying. How y'all gonna just... I mean, I'm also like, wait, so how many days later you just low-key find a guy who looks like the guy and all of a sudden he has a manifesto on him? Right. Like, for one, who'd be writing manifestos?

Two, like, I'm gonna keep it on me so you can find it. And also the monopoly money and the gun too he had a three three 3d printed gun on him that allegedly didn't match right no i think somebody said that it matches some of the bullets at the scene i don't know i saw a press conference where they said they had fingerprints to a cell phone and dna from a water bottle and that's their case a justification for arresting him but i don't know if they did the dna testing between the two of them.

But it seems like how do you know that cell phone and water bottle belongs to him like that just seems very like circumstantial i just feel like it just seems like yeah everybody saw this dude shoots a man straight up in new york gets away with it leaves nothing fucking happens so the cops are like fuck that looks really bad on us now we got a guy who looks kind of like the guy let's pin it on him here's the fucking manifesto that we just plant on him and a big bag full of money oh yeah oh it's

monopoly money how weird that's because we just needed to put it in there i don't know yeah i mean i wouldn't put past the motherfucking system that's what i feel like it just is and it's like not actually him because when they were dragging him away into the police station he screamed something like the american people are not stupid and i'm like hmm well that's a lie they are but i think i'm like well if he's not the actual shooter maybe that's what he's referencing maybe that we see through

it but who knows maybe he is the killer yeah i'm, He's America's sweetheart, I guess. Unsung hero. Crazy. Everyone loves Batman. I hope he gets the... The Pulitzer Prize. No. I hope he has a fair trial. I hope he has a fair trial. But just like you said, it already feels like he's guilty in the media and in the American's eyes.

So hopefully he has 12 peers that see and listen to the testimony and the proof and allow him to have a fair trial but who's gonna be there his peers who hasn't gotten fucked over by the medical system who does not have some sort of money tied into the medical system you know like can he even get a fair trial will there even be i feel like it's gonna be like he has to have a trial that's not gonna happen soon well i feel like they're gonna chuck him to jail they're gonna be like that's it the

media is gonna talk about it forever and then the trial will happen in like a year and he's just sitting in jail the whole time waiting to be tried for it and then the whole time is he even the fucking guy right it could just be a fucking ploy to get us off some bullshit that's about to be coming up on christmas or some bullshit, nancy mace is a psycho but you know about her who nancy mace anti-trans yeah so nancy mace i I forget what state she represents, but...

She's also working on the UFO stuff. Ugh. That's your girl, huh? She's not. But I didn't hear somebody talking very, like... They were definitely, like...

They were definitely giving her so much praise. It sounded like propaganda. So Nancy Mace, she's a Congresswoman. I don't know from what state, but on her, her Instagram, it says from Waffle House, South Carolina, from Waffle House to Citadel to the U.S. House. So, and she, yeah, she's on the Oversight and Armed Service Committee and apparently on the Alien Committee.

But anyway, she is the representative that had submitted the bill to prohibit trans people from using restrooms in the Capitol building, which was obvious. And we talked about this a few weeks ago, an obvious response to having Senator McBride or Congresswoman McBride elected to the house. She's the first openly trans representative. And so they found out and And Representative Mace decided to create this bill.

But obviously there's been a lot of backlash. And on December 5th, Gender Lib, if you want to follow them on Instagram, at Gender Lib, they staged a protest in the Capitol building. And they actually saw a dance video in which they went in and they're doing like a montage dance and like a TikTok video in the Capitol building's bathrooms. But yeah, so they went protesting, and they unfortunately got arrested because of their protesting.

Dang. Yeah, I saw them getting arrested. Mm-hmm. What did they say? They had a catchy slogan. They did. Hey, hey, ho, ho, bathroom brigadier has to go. Something about Democrats get a spine. Oh, yeah. Our lives are on the line. I haven't heard that one. Democrats grow a spine. Our lives are on the line. Yeah, that's one I heard. It's facts. Oh, facts. Facts and catchy.

When it rhymes, you know it's the truth. Yeah. So, yeah, they hosted a bathroom sit-in, which was great. And if you want to read more about their protests or even donate because they have been arrested, check out, again, at Gender Lib L-A-B.

On instagram and have all the information there go them i'm glad that it's they're doing that i'm glad that somebody is doing it yeah i agree i think something needed to to be said and done i know congresswoman mcbride says she wasn't going to like say anything about her or like fight against it which is i think is unfortunate when it comes down to it but at least there's people fighting against it because this yeah impacts

not just her but like everyone who works in the federal government i mean i think it's great that people are stepping up for her because now she can still focus on what the fuck she was planning on focusing on instead of focusing on this fucking bathroom fucking bathroom shit right it's just a distraction. And then i heard recently also representative mace had this uh trans ally arrested.

Because there were she was doing something she's speaking about something i forget what it was wasn't part i really care about her but like this person went up to her and shook her hand and said that oh she was on the committee of like foster care foster youth and their care and all that and he went up to her and said hey i hope you protect trans kids who are in the foster system just as much as you do everyone else that's in the foster system and that was it but then she had she

had her team go ask for his name and then she had them call capital police and say that he assaulted her and she was saying that she was assaulted because when they shook hands shook hands he was very aggressive with her and he hurt her wrists and her armpit and arm and so she had him arrested first of all if somebody even seen that where the fuck was your team that then yeah he did it right i was reading the the article about it and he had he was he wasn't there by himself he was there

with other people and other people he was there with saw the interaction and they're like it was a normal interaction right if someone forcefully is going to shake my hand and it's very aggressive like it's going to be very apparent yeah right and if i'm with you yeah i'm like what hey hold the fuck up what are you doing yeah. You know i'm saying like come on now and then they call Capitol Police I hope he's too to shatter her yeah so. We're an unfortunate person. So bitter fuck her.

But bring something so in trans news they did y'all hear about like almost like what almost about a week and a half ago there was the first trans i i just had it hold on one second okay so alex can the model alex consani made history earlier this week at the british fashion council fashion awards where she was named model of the year becoming the first openly transgender person to win the award in the show's three decade long history she joins previous award winners

including naomi campbell bella hadid and kia gerber kastani took the stage at london's royal albert hall wearing oh shit sorry y'all kastina she took the stage wearing the i don't know how to pronounce says the Larry Fender caught Julie union flag dress to accept the award while on the stage the 21 year old addressed the crowd with gratitude I'm the first trans woman to win this award she continues saying but I can't accept this award without thanking those who came

before me specifically the black trans women who really fought for the space I'm in today because I went on to the list black transgender trailblazers such as Dominique Jackson Connie Flemings and Erin Rose Phillip and thanked them for fighting to give her space to flourish. Post our Dominique Jackson, a knowledge because honey's shout out saying what a wonderful moment. That's sounds wonderful. That is, but yeah, that was great to hear.

Yeah. I love that. It was, but yeah, I think, I mean, I know you said this is a short tea, but I think my thirst has quenched. I mean, I want to, you know, So say rest in peace to the poet and activist and the teacher and the queer icon, Dr. Nikki Giovanni. RIP. Rest in peace. Is that it for these quick teas? I am no longer thirsty. I think we're good. Thirst is quenched. Time for a break.

Hey, y'all. Christoph here. And we just wanted to say thank you for all the love and support. But don't forget to go ahead. Music. And we're back. So today we have with us in the studio a very special guest. Today we have with us Anne Russo. Anne is a mental health professional. Music. Author, and advocate specializing in sex positivity, career issues, and religious trauma. But Anne, I'd like you to tell our listeners in your own words, who are you?

Why are you? What are you? Go off, queen. Who are you? I do not know why I am. I do not know why but i will tell you this i was raised in a queer household a non-monogamous household back in the 80s and 90s in long beach in arizona and new york i came out in high school and i got fascinated by religion i'm like why what's going on here why do these people not like my family, right?

So I just really dove into it. So I got my master's in theology, and then I thought I was going to do work around pastoring, but it turns out that mental health, And religion really became my focus, along with queerness and intersection of different identities. And I run a group practice of 15 practitioners, and we specialize in queerness, POC, polyamory. All the folks that feel stigmatized out there, we're for you. Oh, okay. I love that. I'm bad for that. Yeah.

Growing back, what does that mean, queer family? You said you grew up in a queer household. I love that. Okay. My dad is a gay male. And he was with my mom, obviously. Well, maybe not obviously, but to me, obviously. Right. And he met his still partner when I was five. Oh. And they've been together since 1985. That's something to be. Yeah. And we all lived together until I was 14. Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. And then my dad and his partner opened up their relationship.

So I've seen polyamory in various sorts because they each practice it differently, actually. So I've been able to see long-term polyamory, short-term going to the sex club polyamory. I've seen it all. Yeah. So I've gotten to really see like what this looks like. And I've been raised around queer men my whole life. Hence why you see this. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh my God, I'm a gay man in disguise as a lesbian.

But yeah, so that's basically, you know, and then the passion to just help people and like be there and support and know that they're not alone. That's so cool. Very cool. I know. I love that. Yes. Just like your dog. I know.

Right oh that's awesome yes three kids oh beautiful yeah maybe they'll grow up to be are you the only thing i have a younger sister oh okay awesome she's the odd lady out because she's the straight one can't win them all no but she's awesome and her kids are amazing her husband is just fantastic so i feel really privileged to have such cool family members you know how awesome that's beautiful so one thing that stood out to me is that

you really got into like studying theology because of your experiences growing up like it sounded like a lot like you said a lot of people hated your family like tell me about that like growing up in a. Well, I wish I could say that we actually experienced discrimination. We didn't because we lived a lie. We lived a secret because we were afraid. Right? So we knew that discrimination existed.

We heard it all around us, but it wasn't directed at us because we presented as a heteronormative family with a roommate. Okay. A nuclear family with a live-in friend. Yes. Yes. And I wasn't until I was 14 years old, the first time I ever told anyone that my dad was gay. And I had a straight panic attack because I thought I was revealing like the holy grail of like all secrets. Yeah. Because you knew as a child. Oh, I knew at five. Yeah.

I mean, I knew. I remember meeting my dad's partner at five years old. Like, so to me, it was like, okay, I have two dads and a mom, no emotional differentiation between any of them whatsoever. But I knew that that was not something that I could share with other people. Right. So that was very challenging.

The discrimination piece was just what i was kind of seeing outside outside myself i'm like why do what is this about and that was a time of like the religious right you know what i mean like like you know in the 80s was like hitting hard with like the donahue yeah you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like the nancy reagan and the ronald reagan hiv aids what are you talking about So that was the era, right? So it was like, I'm like, why do people, what is this about?

Like we're, I'm in such a loving family and I was always around a lot of gay men growing up and everyone's just so kind. And loving and I didn't understand it at all. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, I'm like, nothing you're saying makes sense to me. You know what I mean? And I wasn't raised religious. So I didn't have that hang up. So when I started to study religion, then I feel like it gave me a fresh set of eyes because I wasn't holding on to my own religious shame and guilt.

So it was i feel like i got like a very unique experience in that way, that is kind of interesting cool what kind of what was the religion that you that your family practiced well i'm italian dear so you know we're all catholic yeah yeah but once my dad came out like we didn't practice catholicism and religion really was never for me, per se, didn't make sense to me. Spirituality did. But I was really into that whole anthropological, like, why do you believe this?

Help me understand your culture, your history. What's going on here? Where is this coming from? I had a lot of questions. What are these humans doing? What are they doing? Yeah, what are they doing? Yeah, exactly. Why are they? Yes, why are they? Yes, the humans. What the fuck are they doing? Yes. Um so then so then you started studying it so what did you learn about these humans all right i don't share this everywhere but i'm gonna share it here it was all about a girl.

18 i meet this, girl and she was very religious christian very christian and i was like what what is this okay i'm gonna go to church i'm gonna check this out what is she doing right and i found it so fascinating because i'm like they don't i was out that's really important piece like i was never hiding myself and hate the sin not the sinner so i just put on again that anthropological brain And I'm like, I'm going to dive into this 100%.

And I want to see what's going on here. So I even went on a missions trip. Oh. Dang. Out. Out. I was out. With the Christians? Yes, honey. Covert, spy. Baptist. Oh, damn. Like hardcore. I know you had your head on a swivel. It was really surprising. Like, I had never, people weren't allowed to dance. When we went to London on a missions trip, they were like, okay, this is the gay district, so let's all pray here.

And in my mind, I'm like, note to self, I will be back here tonight to hit the club. Right? Thanks for pointing this out. Yeah, thank you. And I brought people with me. They wanted to go out with me. I was like, oh, shit. Go out with me. They went to the gay club. They're dancing. I'm like, we're at a gay club.

You're dancing are you okay you haven't been lit on fire everyone here's just having fun living their life and it was just like this awakening for some people which i thought was kind of cool, you know so i think it was just this huge lack of like exposure.

You know more than it was about like a clear indication of what it meant to be part of the queer community or lgbtq community i mean the things that they believe is just mind boggling but it's hard for folks like us especially we've been subject to that trauma to go into those spaces and be like no let's sit down and like have a rational conversation about this with love definitely you know yeah i think right i think all the isms are just rooted in ignorance and you just meet people

from that that culture from that experience like you're gonna have a different relationship with that idea yes but that's just not my job like i i can't you know i i think we've talked extensively about like our our relationship with religion with our trauma yeah religious trauma so like yeah i definitely i think i i love that you are doing that work because i think it It takes like a, like a very like passionate and like very connected person to kind of do that and go step into those spaces.

Thank you. And it has, I mean, ironically, like that experience with that girl completely shaped everything that I am today in my work. Oh, nice. You know, so. So are you like a rare person in your field? Like, I feel like there's not a lot of people, right, that do this kind of stuff. No, there's not. As a matter of fact, I was writing a book on female sexuality. And I was talking a lot about the faith. And then an organization called PESI reached out to me to write a book.

And I sent them this chapter. And they come back and they go, we actually want you to write an entire book on religious trauma for therapists because they don't know what they're doing. So I'm like, oh, shit, I have to start over? I was like, wait, how? I'm like, I did this when I was 18. Yeah, yeah. I was like, okay. So I'm like, okay. So like, I'm into it. But yeah, they were saying that there's just no real books and no real training around that. And it is so pervasive in our society.

You don't even have to be religious or be raised in religion for it to have impact in you. Yeah, that's true. You know, so we all we all have that messaging that is counter intuitive to our biology, I think. We all have that trauma bond. That trauma bond. We all have that trauma bond. We all do. Thanks, Christianity. Yeah, exactly. Like the high control religious pieces. Right. So it's it's tough work. And I've had clients that have taken years to move away from the depth of the high control.

Not their faith, but the high control pieces of it. So since obviously this girl that you were seeing, she was a lesbian? Oh, you just left seeing after a straight girl? I will say this. She was, yeah, yeah, she was, she was a girl who was very dedicated to her belief system. And that took precedent over anything else. So that also made you fascinated on how this religion can make you so driven that you don't even want to explore anything else. Yes.

Yes. I was like, what is this? And that's what, yeah, I'm like, I don't understand. Like there's something that can be so powerful and so loving and so good. And then you're being told, no, no, no, go be miserable instead.

That's how you get to heaven right yeah it reminds me of like this friend that i had and he was roommates with this mormon guy and then they like fell madly in love and it was tragic because they couldn't even kiss each other and then just the whole shit it's like fucked up so fucked up oh it's it's truly devastating it is it's devastating and i and i think through experiences like that depending on who you are obviously like i took that and i ran with

it i'm like i don't want people to go through what i went through right or what she went through you know and would you say like i don't know ask i guess she just was she like a traumatized girl did you like see her get messed up did you feel really inspired by her specifically or can i also not ask that well no. I can I you don't want to ask that I said I can also take it back I don't know I will I will I would say this she did her best to follow what she thought was the right thing

she was a very loving a very kind a very good person but it definitely hindered her from being how living her best life yeah yeah and it's crazy because when we're young and we're growing up around religion and those messages that's driven into us as children stick with you and it just makes you so paranoid or worried on how your life will turn out if you decide to venture out. Yeah, and you see it all the time. I mean, she's an example of probably millions of people. Yeah. Right.

So definitely like the road I was on for like a while with like Calvary Chapel. Yes, honey. Calvary Chapel. Don't you tell me what you know about them. That was the church I went to. Oh. You learn about that rapture? Oh, all the good, all the beautiful beliefs. Yeah. So crazy. It's intense. And the way that they present it to you initially sounds like amazing.

Like come listen to this great band and forget everyone's so fucking nice yeah forget you know religion this is all about jesus right and then you find out it's a very high control environment oh yeah yeah i was about it i was like yeah jesus fucking loves me bitch yes i know well this is what the bible told me yes yeah i mean it's sad because people are like There's lots of sad people, and it's like sometimes Jesus is the only person that does love them,

and it can be a really sad outlet that they have to return to religion. Which just sucks. I know. It hurts me, and one of the things that I try to do, because I see this a lot in our gay community, our queer community, is this feeling of, I can't have this spirituality.

Right like I have to choose a spirituality or choose an orientation and that I believe is an impossible choice I mean I really truly believe that something within you is missing one way or the other right so my my goal with my clients is really to help them reconcile that in some way so to so. I don't know what that's necessarily going to look like for them, but I want them to feel like they get to exist wholly. Not wholly, but wholly with a W, right?

You know, because why should we be denied a spiritual path if that's something that's important to us? Yeah, like, it's really shitty how, like, the people of the religion can take it away from you. And it's like, why should we be denied, I guess, the idea of an everlasting glory because of some simple little thing like a sexuality that doesn't fucking matter to anybody except for the people who fucking made up this bullshit?

I know it's and the beauty of so when i got my master's in theology i was like i can't the one thing that people that i i admire it can't do it to save my life they can just quote bible at you left and right well john you're just like and you're just like like just struck like i i'm sorry like i don't even know what to say to that because you just quoted 30 bible verses at me Right. So my approach was to understand how that book was put together, the culture that it came from.

The original language what was going on in that time so like you can quote all day at me and i don't know the original damn yeah right so great tell me where that tell me why this is important why is this letter that paul wrote relevant how does this correlate to something that you believe god said you know what i mean so it's like i have a very different perspective so it's like it has no impact just quoting scripture at me that means nothing and how do you take a

book that was put together 320 years later with all this stuff left out and then say well this book says it's the this is the word of god what part the last book that said it that they put together 300 years later or the entire i mean like it just it doesn't actually It's illogical to view it in those terms. I understand why, because it's scary shit. We're talking about existential crisis, what happened, right?

Who doesn't want to know that if I believe this, I'm going to be okay for eternity, and it's going to be amazing, and golden streets and all this.

Who wouldn't want that? Right? So how much scarier it is to like have to really dissect what is this that I'm believing? Where did it come from? Dang. So since you know, let me just ask you right now. How many times does it say no gay shit in the Bible? It doesn't. Right? It truly doesn't. That's the thing that's very... Just mind-boggling yeah right like.

When you look at so just even like breaking down something like sodom and gomorrah i'm like dude the bible itself says that it's about hospitality your own book is telling you that it is not about gayness but why are you doing like and it's rape we're talking about rape men trying to rape angels these are not gay men these are straight men of the city who are trying to overpower these visitors like how does this even equal the same thing is that what she was about yes i mean it's

not i mean it's just but but you know but the righteous person says here have my daughters rape them instead because that's cool right i mean seriously yeah it's the hypocrisy of the whole fucking shit about it is what kills everybody it kills me it's just like bitch the shit you want to count and the shit you don't like go fuck off don't please please don't text please don't talk to me about deuteronomy yeah right and that's that in itself too is about

worshiping another god through sexual rights orgiastic rights it has nothing to do with homosexual relationships or gay relationships or love so it's like no you know can't try again try again try again yeah right i feel like that gets linked to what that's why we're so hyposexualized right so they make that connection with sodom and gomorrah and.

Hyposexualizing us yes you know i'm happy that you brought that up because there's a part of me that has serious empathy for parents that have kids that are gay and the parents are very religious or very into Christianity because the message that they're receiving is scary. I remember meeting a parent once. I don't want my son to be gay. All right, well, let's talk about this. Have you seen the studies? Yeah, I've seen the studies. You tell me about the studies you've seen. We're studying?

Yeah, I want to know about your studies, right? She's like, did you know that gay people are more prone to suicide, substance abuse, sexual promiscuity, homelessness, bop, bop, bop, I'm like, honey.

Is it about the orientation or the depth of rejection that there's people are experiencing right but she thinks it's innately because of the sexual orientation so i need to stop my child from going down this path if they just don't make this decision they can avoid all of these fates yeah yes like no yeah exactly but the but the true fear that that her child's life is going to be destroyed now because that's what it means to be a gay person it has nothing to do with about love or connection

or just who you're innately attracted to exactly yeah you know so trying to they're spinning our own studies against us so we have to kind of learn how to counteract and talk more about what rejection does definitely you know so that's one of the main things that i try to talk to parents about like i'm pretty open to talking to parents that struggle with these things which is not always an easy feat because is we're pissed.

You know we're pissed yeah so it's tough but i think they they not all of us, should could or have to do this but some of us some of us sadly kind of have to take that, be in the scary communities and say, no, I can be gay and I can still love God. I can be gay. And why do you care if I am committed with one person or if I'm poly? What the fuck does it matter to you? Like, how am I showing up in the world? How am I treating people in the world?

Yeah, I feel like it was mainly all the people of the community that made me feel like I couldn't involve myself with it.

It wasn't really anything about like the actual bible because i literally would i would read like the fucking what is it the little gideon yeah yeah yeah yeah good old gideon yeah where the fuck is it talking about me i'm like i don't know what to say i don't know what to say it says more about you fucking your wife next door your neighbor so yes i don't know and that and those translations are so wrong when they talk about homosexuality

they don't even know what those words actually mean man bed is the closest they have with paulian letters, and then i just got to put it out there paul is not a friend of anyone anybody. Anybody because all they are are letters to different communities telling people how they he believes they should practice christianity they're not from god god or jesus paul never, And as a matter of fact, Paul was called back to meet people that knew Jesus, and he refused to go because

he wasn't preaching the same message. Because he knew he wasn't standing on business. Exactly. Paul said, I'm not going back because I already know I'm going to fuck up. I'm lying. Yeah, he's trying to get the Roman Empire to—he's trying to get the Jews to stop fighting and revolting. And this is a way to do it. And now here we are with this book going, this is the word of God. No, this is a letter that some dude wrote. What? It wasn't even in here. Exactly. And now I got to buy you presents?

Waste my money. Yeah. I mean, it's really deeply unfortunate. So I try to look at the Bible or any religion, right, is man, woman, trans, non-bibes, whoever, human beings, okay, beings trying to understand God. We don't know. We can't know. We may never know. We may never know. Exactly. I mean, it'd be real fascinating, right? It would be cute. It'd be cute. It'd be cute. It'd be real cute. But I mean, understanding God, understand how the earth works, the universe works, how science works.

It's just they didn't have the tools for so many of these things, right? So I like to view it as like, Man, human, person, attempting to understand God. And that vision should change with the more knowledge that we receive in our experience on this planet and with each other. That's a good one. Thank you. I like that. Thank you. Okay.

Did you, I don't know your story. Did you grow up with any God character? I mean, you know, I grew up in Christianity. How often would you go? Oh, we went, what, Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, and sometimes Saturday. My grandmother was all up through the church. But he's like, in the black church, he's like, and then that Sunday is mostly all goddamn day. So, like, when you're in the church, you just hear these things. And when they're preaching about homosexuality, at times they are,

it's very like, oh, you're going to hell. And who wants to go to hell? Exactly. Is that why you stayed in the closet for that reason? Well, I mean, and also because discrimination, motherfucking life. I'm just curious if it was specifically the church. It wasn't specifically the church. It was a plethora of fucking reasons. Like you mentioned, fear, discrimination, might lose my family. No one might not love me no more. You know what I'm saying? So like, I was just like, you know what?

I just continue to be loved and suppress these feelings. You know what I'm saying? And so it was just like fake the funk. There you go. I'll just continue to be loved. Right. And how long could you fake that funk? Oh, I didn't come out until I was 35. Really? Yeah. So I'm still barely a new gay. So I was like, and it took one thing because I also had this relationship. I was very spiritual. Yeah.

I was never religious, but I was very spiritual. But one day, like I couldn't sleep and I just knew that, like, you know, like I was celibate for nine months. So I was just like, what is going on? Like, I know that I want to be with a man. So I was like, what are you going to do, Christoph? And then basically it was just like, I was like, OK, Holy Spirit, God, universe. When I wake up in the morning, let me know how my day going to go.

And then I went to work and I called my brother and I came out to him and then that just. Snowballed into nothing but happiness and joy because I just always assumed that I was going to be hated. You know what I'm saying? So like, I just wished, I just wished the worst. So I was like, Oh, okay. But nothing actually happened. You know what I mean? So it was just like, then it was my brother.

Then it was my mom, then my dad, then my aunt and just a few other people, and my co-workers that I was with that day. And it was, I went to the bar right on after. I was like, well, shit, this is good. So he was just like, yeah. So like, then I contemplated like, well, at that night, I was like, either I'm going to come out or I'm going to do something to unlife myself. So that's when I was speaking to the universe and to the gods.

And then I would sleep and I woke up. So I was like, I guess, well, I guess I'm going to come out today. So, yeah. And that actually happened on like September 11th, which is also a weird thing. But neither here or there. But yeah, that's the that's my coming out story. So it was now I figured like what if what happened if I had the courage to come out when I was younger?

Things could have been different, but I still walk in my truth. Or what if you had an we lived in a world where it was OK.

Yeah it wasn't matter right i wouldn't be if what if what if it was a world where i would be okay where it was like i wasn't gonna go to hell so yeah wait 9 11 9 11 or no not 9 11 9 11 just september 11 okay just one yeah like i when i was doing the whole calvary chapel thing i felt like i just spent like because we were talking about it before it's like you just think about how many hours you spent like feeling like shit about your gayness and like how many like times like just I like

spent in like the room just like thinking about like how I'm going to go to hell or like what's going on with me or like why is this happening or like if this is a choice like why can't I just make the correct choice and like why are these thoughts keep happening like what's wrong with me? And then it's just kind of like, you can't stop thinking these thoughts about dick. So, if you're gay, obviously, if you're a lesbian, you might not have thoughts about dick.

But not in the same way probably yeah yeah but wait so what is catholic what's this, calvary calvary chapel right is this a youth pastor calvary chapel in my opinion is a christian church they like they like market themselves as like christian it's just like christian and then they have like this symbol of like a dove or some shit and then it's very white and it's very like we are the best christians and we are the whitest christians and we are the best whitest christians

and like that's just what it is and that's like their vibe and we're like every single one of us we're all going to heaven except for you and anybody that we come in contact with is going to fucking hell and everybody around even in our own circle everyone else going to hell.

It's like every single person is only the good person but anyways but like when you first go, like it's very like love bombing and like we went to the youth like area or whatever with the youth kids so like only the kids would go so this is like when i'm like 13 and then so like every single person is like all up in my face and i was like we're so excited to meet you and like basically just like trying to be my friend i'm like this is so weird nobody

ever wants to be my fucking friend i was like so this is very off and like i don't feel like this is right so your guard your guard was already up yeah i was like because nobody ever wants to be my fucking friend and then it was like also like they like actually didn't try to actually ever get to know me it was just kind of like fake and then it was also like exclusionary at the same time because it's like everybody wants to be your friend and get in your face but also nobody gives

a shit about you and like no one's ever trying to be your friend. I don't know. It's like everything all at once. I've never heard of it. I think it's the most dangerous. Oh. Yeah, because... Each church is its own little entity, and they're all doing their own thing. So there's nothing that's really unified. And I'm not saying that unified hate is good. Okay, right? But the pastor is kind of whatever the pastor says is what it is, and it can be pretty intense.

And people will make a lot of decisions within those churches that are really counterproductive for a happy life. And this is not just for gay folks. I've seen straight folks get married just so they could have sex, just to end up in abusive relationships. Yeah. So I've seen people make just bad decision after bad decision just due to this fear.

And this pastor is just elevated to this level of god literally themselves themselves see god themselves yeah so it's it's there's no real doc doctrine behind it this is the word of god here's the bible now i'm gonna interpret it for you and i'm gonna make it fun as hell yeah and i'm gonna make it so fun and then you're gonna get sucked in and then you're gonna feel like shit about yourself and that everything you are is wrong it's a really great time

and then they tell you you gotta go do like tell other people spread the word i'm gonna go outside my damn house oh my gosh and that is real intense i remember oh my god that's how i knew i was like not for that religion i was like oh i can't be going places i i had this flashback when you said that of walking into the church office then there was this world map and it was like. You know, those little bulletins. Oh, yeah. Like a little pins.

Yeah, the little pins of like where we're going, where we've been, where we're taking over. And I'm like, I feel like I'm looking at a Nazi Germany map right now. Like, I'm like, this is scary. Like, this is real talk. Like, you have got to believe this. You have got to make sure everybody else believes this. They're going to hell. And you would even ask, well, what if this person never was even exposed to this belief? Hell.

What if it's a baby? hell yeah they were not saved hell oh yeah wow it was intense you know what i'm talking about yeah they do this little presentation it was i think it was a live action play that we saw of the rapture and it was so fucking traumatic oh my god not a live action play i was like holy fucking shit i i i better not be getting that mark of that beast i was like i was like i'm gonna die it's see and like with your experience like it within me like i i always knew like.

You know so i just think like what it must have been like to really be in that space like for me it was all really about a girl but like for for you in it yeah you were in it like this is happening to me like i like had so much time where i was just like basically yeah just like thinking to myself like how i'm going to hell i'm just like just like trying to like do all these mental gymnastics of why i'm not actually gay and like why i'm actually straight and like making up all

these excuses and then i ended up getting in a relationship with a girl too and she was catholic and i just like, I read some story one time, and it was about a man who was, like, in church, and he was basically, like, online looking for dudes to hook up with. And I was just like, that's going to be me. I'm going to be married to this girl, and I'm going to be cheating on her every single minute with dudes while I'm, like, at church.

Yeah. And I'm like, that's fucked up and sad and weird. And I'm like, no, I can't be this person. And then I finally, like, well, I mean, I was cheating on her also with dudes, but. But the strength to leave that and not go down that path. Because I even told the dude who I ended up, like, leaving her for, I even told him, I was like, I'm never going to leave her for you. Like, I'm never going to leave. I'm never going to get with you or whatever. You know what I mean? Yes.

Never going to leave her for you. Which is fucked up. But it's where you were at. And then I did. And I escaped. And then I think. That's the escape. Yeah. And then I think it actually took me, like, just, like, and then I don't know what happened. It was kind of, like, I was pseudo, like, I'd stopped going to church because, like, the girl that I was seeing was, like, at that point my only, like, reference to, like, religion.

Because she, like, her family was religious. They were still going to church all the time. So I was, like, I guess still in that kind of world. And then, like, I got with the guy. And then it was kind of, like, I never thought about God again. And then it was until like years later that I was like, do I believe in God? And I was like, I don't even know. And I was like, well, I guess I think I believe in something. And then I was like, but is Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior?

I don't know about that part. So I don't know anymore. But you know, I get scared when people do know. Right? It's kind of like, well, how do you know? And why do you know? What's your angle? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It seems like the more you learn, the less you, I feel like that's a quote from like 1988. But like, for real, like, you just keep learning and taking it in and, you know, less and less. And I personally feel comfortable with that.

I know that not everybody is, but it It took a long time to get there because I was looking for answers, playing Sarah McLachlan, trying to figure this out. Like, come on, Sarah, give me a message here. Yes, give me a sign, Sarah. But then one day I was like, you know what? If there is a God, God made me like this, inquisitive, interested in people, who I am, sexual orientation-wise, gender presentation, whatever it might be.

I'm okay with that. Like I'm okay with not knowing and knowing that I'm created to be exactly who I'm supposed to be. And so I have no, there's no part of me that goes, oh, what if I'm wrong or oh shit, someone just told me that. Oh, like I feel very clear in that now.

It was a it was a process and not being raised religion so again being raised religion and going through that process like i feel yeah yeah yeah yeah i feel like for for me like i i wasn't in the closet because i was scared of going to hell i felt like i was directly impacted by religion because it was like i didn't want to come out because i didn't want to lose my family because they were religious and i knew where they stood right so that was a big fear but

like for i had a very similar experience with religion i was growing up as a kid so in elementary we had like a. Family tragedy and we got into church and it was probably a calvary church now that you're talking about your experience but i remember we somehow linked up with the pastor and we're he would come to our house and preach to us and he brought a film about the rapture and he played it and i was like this is terrifying nope never and

i even remember i left the living room i was in the hallway and I'm like I don't want to see this like and they try to talk me into it and I think they eventually got me to see it but after that I like I wasn't really interested in religion but then my family would go for like holidays and I would go just they would ask me like oh can you can you and I would go I never experienced anyone preaching anti-gay things but I remember my aunt renewed her vows and part of the vows

was to serve and honor my uncle and I remember I heard that and I was just like I looked around see everyone's reactions no one reacted I was like oh y'all okay okay. Y'all like that y'all trying to serve and then I remember going to a men's breakfast and I think by the time I went to his men's breakfast I was already out my uncle asked me to go and, And obviously, like, you can tell my voice, my mannerisms that I'm queer.

And so he comes to me and he was like, have you accepted the Lord and Jesus as your Savior? I'm like, no, I'm okay. And he was like, are you sure? I'm like, I'm good. I'm not really interested. And he was like, can I pray over you? And part of his prayer was like, please show him the ways when he doesn't go to hell. And I'm just like, this is how you sell this. Okay. Right. And ever since then, I've just not gone to a church.

So what you're saying is like, that didn't work. That didn't make you want to just jump in and be part of it. I know, right? I know. I'm like, it was so inviting. Yeah, so inviting. Yeah, you're like, totally. Yes. Oh my God. And I think I definitely took a step away from like religion. And then I've gotten more spiritual. And I think because my spirituality got awakened by my work with like psilocybin and mushrooms.

I mean for me like I've gained this I don't believe like a center figure I don't believe in like a god or like a particular person that created everything like I just I don't know I just feel like everything kind of just like exists and there's this interconnectedness because like when I've taken the medicine like you just feel just like everything just like works in the symbiosis symbioticness between it and it's just like beautiful and like I believe in that you know,

i believe in the interconnectedness of it yeah but the connection your mind was like free to connect in a different way yeah definitely so i believe in this like universal power that we're we're all connected and we're all like just doing our thing i don't know it's just i'm still exploring it but yes one of the things i feel really privileged to be able to do is in my undergrad, I studied a lot of Southeast Asian religion.

And I feel like that's kind of my root belief system, even though I, do the christianity stuff right and just that connected i just so beautiful just trying to like keep bringing yourself back to that place because i think it can be so hard in this world to remind us we're all connected we're all together we're all this energy like you know it's all about like really like loving each other and ourselves like doing that kind of work so i It's just like it's that journey, that path, right?

And that, I think, brings you closer to whatever God, right, it is that you believe. Maybe we're all God. Yeah, right? That's what the Bible says, right? Yeah. He is within us. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I know you started off with your studies with religion, and I don't know if we're going to pivot but i also wanted to know what made you want to pivot towards poc and sex positivity, well i'll start with some fucking help.

Well i feel like any group that's been marginalized it needs to know that there are people out there to support so with the poc part now no one can see me but i'm very white but our our group is very mixed. So the practice is kind of everybody, which I think is fabulous. And I know that sometimes a Black woman wants to talk to another Black woman about her experience, right?

So I think it's really important to have that level of diversity so you can feel safe to talk about things that maybe others just simply cannot understand. I'm sure they may want to understand, But they just can't because it's not their lived experience, right? So that's really important to me. The sex positivity part is... That does kind of stem into the Christianity as well. But my God, like, we were born with these natural tendencies and these urges. This is our biology.

This is our evolution, right? And we're taught that, like, there's just this innate part of us that's bad. And I think that's terrible. I mean, really, I do. No way. You know, like, just truly, like, it's terrible. So, I'm a big believer in sexual positivity, meaning authentic sexual positivity. So, I'm even talking about folks that may identify as ace, right? Like, that's not for you? Then you know what? You shouldn't be forced to do it.

Yeah, you're right. Exactly. You know what I mean? So, sexual positivity is really about knowing yourself. Knowing your body. Yeah. Yeah. And being able to communicate that in a way to where you're going to connect with other people that are going to feel similar. So I think it's a lot of heavy lifting because of the society that we're in. But it's clearly not working. You know, it doesn't work. Why does Ashley Madison exist? Right?

Right? I mean, it's not working. And no pun intended, Adam and Eve. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? The originators. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it just, so, and we're taught that pleasure is bad. Why? You know, respect people, be honest with people, you'll find your way. Yeah. You know, so sex, so that's how I teach about sex positivity.

It's not, and I find that, you know, I don't know how in your practice, but one of the things too is that I feel like, When people have a mismatched libido, too, it's the responsibility of the person who's maybe less sexual to fix themselves. And I think that's a terrible message, too. So I'm just coming back, authenticity, authenticity. Yeah, what's it mean? What's it mean? What's that mean, right? And being okay with yourself.

And, you know, if there's traumas to work through, sure, but that's my spot. I love it all. I know that's right. I love it. I love it all. I love to see people explore themselves and be comfortable with their kinks and be safe in their kinks and understand them. Because that's another thing that I see as well is that people are so shy around some of these kinks that they find themselves in maybe some positions that maybe can be dangerous sometimes.

So it's like understanding what those things mean and safety means around those so you can really enjoy yourself and feel safe.

And it be true being true consent right like i i call it i call it just consent but like but you know it's like enthusiastic consent where you're just like hell yeah i'm into this and if you're not hell yeah i'm into this that's okay so going back what are some of the can i ask you what are some of like the more like gruesome horror sides of this like religious trauma that can be had by folks like what are some things that people that you deal with experience is

it like a electroshock therapy we've heard about stories like that or like what are some things that they go through i have not had to work with people that have been through that type of horror Insanity. Yeah. Obviously, I know about it, but...

It's just mind-boggling that the idea of torturing a human being to fix them right to fix them is just like what are you doing i don't understand what what is happening here right so but mainly the people that i work with it's really more of an emotional and mental head game that's happening they haven't really had physical harm done to them but i think people need to know that that And it happens in many, many states.

It is still illegal to harm, to literally put electrodes on your genitals and shock you to think that you're going to stop an attraction by doing things like that. And the damage that you're doing to another human being. And I'm sorry, but I can't envision any God going, this is a great idea.

Right right let's torture everybody yeah let's torture let's torture and what are you torturing because someone loves differently than you do right yeah so yeah yeah so i mean i've i i went to a conversion camp experience right here in good old southern california really yeah there was exodus international anyone familiar with that term oh i'm surprised not because they're a big calvary i mean i i've if they would have offered me back in the day i probably would have jumped on it but

then i would have been like no i don't want to jump on it because y'all would know i think i'm gay well i went oh and i was just curious what are these people talking about What are they preaching? What are they telling folks, right? What was most astounding is the belief that it's all coming from love. Again, we're not talking about the physical harm, not that the emotional harm's any better, but they're really trying to save your soul.

And a lot of the people that were the speakers at these conferences are ex-gays. Love that term. Don't you just love that term? Ex-gay. I'm not exactly straight. Yeah. I'm just not gay. Yeah, right? I'm an ex-gay. And these ex-gays were raised in the church. They come out of the church and they start to participate in activities that are harmful to them. They associate those activities with what it means to be gay. And then they come back to the church going, this is what it meant to be gay

and I don't want this for you. A life of drugs and wild, dangerous sex. And... And mojitos. Yeah. Sign me up, sis. Very expensive drinks at the Abbey. Double. Right? So it's like this true fear of when you hear that, who wants that? Right? So you're like, oh my gosh, I better hold this in. I better hold this in. So again, we're just coming down over and over again to this rejection and then that internalized homophobia.

So that actually taught me a lot. I was really grateful to have that experience because it made me go from a place of you hate gay people or you hate yourself to you don't really understand what it means. Like you haven't had the true experience of like love and connection without the self-hate and without this overarching negativity around your faith system. So it gave me the opportunity, I think, to really work with people that experience that in a very open way that's not always easy to do.

Because whenever I run a training, for example, you have the people marching with their Bibles ready to fight me. But I really talk to them without that hate. I don't have the hate because I get it. I get it. I don't agree with it, but they just need to be spoken to differently because they're not going to get it from us by saying, you assholes, you're horrible. What's wrong with you? That's not going to work. You know, to make real change is to make real connection.

And the more people see you as having a boring ass life, they realize like, oh, everything I've heard.

Yeah. Yeah. What I've heard. so you're not partying every night you're not like it's like no honey no i wish i had the energy right right by eight yeah exactly right so basically it's just kind of showing them that we're kind of all the same we're just we're just boring bitches too we're just boring bitches you're not having sex 24 7 unfortunately no no no i'm not i have to pay my bills It's crazy. It's just this crazy thing. I'm raising kids.

Yeah, exactly. You know, and so there's just this deep misunderstanding. And when you have someone say, wait, you believe in a God and you're gay? Huh? They're like dumbfounded by the idea. It's like, this is oxymoron. They're gay, so that's not what God is. Yeah. So total misunderstandings. So I think if we can just, those of us who want to take up the mission, because again, I don't think all of us need to. Is there's a patience there that is just, has to exist because it's hard not to.

Snap on a bitch. Yes.

Because it's almost like those people that be at pride that just be out there like just protesting they're my favorite i want because you probably have the patience to go up there and have a great conversation with them and school them oh oh and i don't school though this is the thing that's funny i don't want to school you know what i want i want them to tell me what they think oh okay i want them to tell me what they believe why they believe it so then i know the work that i need to

do with folks that are trying to get out of that shit okay right because if i go and try to school i feel like i'm not going to get what i need to help others but believe me when i tell you do i want to flap a bitch yeah yeah i mean yes it's hard it's hard i'm like what are you doing what are you how please tell me how many people have you got to change since you've and standing out here. Screaming and shit all day. Yeah, like, how successful has this been? Yeah. Right.

I'm now here picketing a Vons telling you to be gay, you know? Right. Like, come on. But I've had some fascinating talks. I mean, you all remember the Westboro Baptist Church? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Some of my favorites. I went to talk to a couple of those folks. And, I mean, they think they're coming from a place of complete love. And they're coming from an Old Testament perspective. So it was well worth it for me to talk to them. Because we're going to see what

they do and go, this is evil. This is evil shit, right? But they, nope, nope.

This is, God says to be harsh. this is real stuff we got to save people and this is how we do it old testament style they're like this is just tough love yeah yes this is tough love because you're just so gay yes i just gotta tell you you're going to hell yeah i gotta go protest your funeral i mean like terrible right just so painful if i just beat your ass a little bit more like it might work yeah yeah i mean it's but you know there was an experience that

i had and i think that this is pretty awesome the granddaughter of the leader of the westboro baptist church came out to a gay center in las vegas when i was living there at the time and she apologized on behalf of her grandfather and the church oh okay she said she was wrong that she didn't see and understand things differently and when she became in charge of social media she struck up a conversation with a jewish person and then that got her thinking and thinking and

thinking and realizing that this was wrong and she left her whole family wow that just gave me two yeah she left her whole family and started this crusade of apology for the harm that she had caused to different communities so and it was by someone who was nice to her. That's great. Social media. It makes sense. Yeah. So it works. It works. Not easy, but it works. You got to have the patience for it. You got to have the patience. You got to have the patience for it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've definitely seen at the pride events, like people going up and just shouting. Shouting is right. Yeah. Like, oh. I get it. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Because you're hurt. How many times can you be hurt? Yeah. And it's a trigger, right? Yeah. Yeah. F-bombs everywhere. Yeah. How many times can you be told that you're flawed just because you exist? Right. So I feel it, you know. So let me go do that for y'all. Thank you. Thank you.

Take up the sword for me. Yes. Let me do that for y'all. I mean it is crazy and triggering i mean i've gotten so many like heated arguments at work just trying to explain calmly to people about like just simple simple things.

I'm just like what if this religion came up to you and told you you still have to act this way even though you don't believe it and they're just like well i wouldn't do that and i well that's what you're doing to me and they still just it still doesn't compute, bitch I'm just writing it out for you in the most simplest terms you still don't get it no and they won't because it's just seeped in for so long and think of what you're asking someone to do,

If you start knocking those dominoes down, the whole world is going to fall apart. And then what happens?

They're gay now. Yeah, now they're gay and they're going to hell too. No, but it's, you know, who wants to confront that everything that you've ever believed may not be true? And then after this life, then what? I mean, that's some scary shit. Do you deal with trans patients? Yeah. Do they have like, I don't know much about like trans conversion therapies. Is it just like the same kind of torture?

So I haven't worked with a lot of trans folks in conversion therapy, but I imagine it would probably be pretty darn similar.

Mainly when it comes to trans folks i work with just helping them try to understand what that what transness means to them and just a lot of the folks are kind of new to figuring out what transness means to them you know and having those like deeper conversations around, gender and cultural expectation around gender i mean there's just so many moving pieces with that and that's just one portion because you can work with clients who are prepared for their a nerve-firming care.

And now you're talking about being prepared for the surgery, post-recovery, talking about expectations of what you want to look like and all that. Like, it's just so intricate. It is. It is. And I, so I do work with trans clients, but I don't necessarily specialize in trans clients because I feel like we all have our niche and it's okay to have our niche. We should have our needs. You know what I mean? Because there's just things that I don't want to cause harm.

And I think sometimes therapists by accident, truly by accident, cause harm. Because I just don't know. Do you think they could do it all? Yeah. The generalists? Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I think we're put in a position to feel like we have to do it all. That's true. Especially if you're working because a lot of people assume that you know it all. Well, if you work in community mental health where people here in California have MeniCal go to, like, you get what you get, what's in the community.

And sometimes you don't, you don't have the specialty or the knowledge. So like, that's where it becomes tough, but these people need help. Yeah.

Because there's only so many fucking therapists like you said like you're a rare person and it's like when i was looking for a gay therapist it was like when i went fucking through kaiser it was like girl goodbye might as well just kill yourself now bitch like, they might as well just hand you the gun because like no we'll get back to you and like never and then one time i was like you guys can you guys at least like direct me to like a gay specific,

like therapist and the first person i got said yeah and that they could and they helped me out And then the second time I called to do to ask the same service, they're like, we don't do that. And I'm like, oh, do you not, bitch? Because the last bitch did. So what the fuck is going on here? Right. You just don't want to go above and beyond for my gay ass. Anyways, that's why I went on fucking. What was that shit called? Craigslist. No.

That's when I got some real therapy. No. Where was that place? Better help the pride counseling.

How was that it was interesting because the first therapist that i connected with basically was like, oh i think you need to continue shopping around like you sound he basically told me i was too fucked up for him he was like you got too much shit going on essentially he's like i think you need he told me he thought i needed i think that i'm looking for a life coach i was like what the fuck bitch, and the second one it just kills

me and then the second one he was okay he was he was good he was good, you have to be a trauma deeply trauma informed therapist to work with queer folk because we've been through a lot of shit exactly, my the eventual one who I did get he ended up yeah he was gay but he was I'm not gonna talk shit about it, off the record, he's a little bitchy sometimes. But anyways that's just my shit, Any other conversion thoughts? Any other questions?

I guess, you know, since, you know, queer people will be listening to this. So a lot of people struggle with the idea of being queer and religious, you know. So like any tips, suggestions, you know, how do people navigate that for themselves? Baby, come to me. There you go. Well, the book that I am writing, it will be out in 2025.

Okay. Okay. and it is a book that is focused very much on religious trauma therapy model and it will deal with a lot of this in the book and it's for mental health providers but it's also for non-mental providers just to kind of look at these things so that's would be my go-to right now i'm just just really in there just doing the book thing but i believe there's absolutely room for that 100 and i can use the bible if i need to to do that i'll just pull up my old thesis.

But that was what that whole thesis was about was that intersection of the two so i do believe that that that does exist and i'm a believer of meeting the client like most of us where they're at so like where you want to go with this let's let's do the work let's do it you know yeah because i feel like when I still was a believer.

I felt almost kind of like, weird like i was like like out of like a fish out of water because i'm like i feel like i have this like religious beliefs and like everybody else who i am around now like is like super anti-god and i'm just like oh shit now i feel like i have to be kind of quiet about now i have to be going in the closet about my jesus love you're so right though you're so right because there is this uh term called

christophobia and that's something that does tend to happen to gay folks that have been raised in the church we feel like now anything has to do with christ yikes right so it.

You're in a real tough place when you're trying to navigate those two no doubt about it because like i feel like when i was like when i was younger and i was like experiencing like i guess this christophobia oh yeah it would be like i would be there and like for whatever reason like religion would come up and then i just hear like somebody starts talking like like they're like basically like their atheist viewpoints and then every single

other person is like in the same boat and i was just like oh shit i'm like i guess i better be quiet that's real talk though it is that's real talk it's hard yeah you know so but i think there's room for all of us yeah and then And then I was like, am I being bullied out of wanting to believe in God? And then I'm like, hmm. But then I was like, no, I just don't think I believe anymore. But I don't know. And then I said, I'm like, I don't know. But then the whole Jesus thing is like, no.

But you know what? The beauty is that you're still here. And the journey is not over. That's true. I was also thinking about that. I'm like, well, I'm only like... An age that's not going to be told live. But I'm like, I guess I still have like a whole other half of my life that I can do other random shit in. Yeah, of course. I could be a whole new person. And you have an afterlife. Yeah. Live it up. That's right. I could be Hindu tomorrow. You could be.

It's a very interesting religion. Is there any homophobia there? She's like, yeah. Because it's all written by other humans. So, like, I'm quite sure they put that shit into every religion possible. Look at just the philosophies. Because you may find that some of the philosophies will resonate with you. Because it's a lot of internal work. Just check out the Wisdom School of Hinduism. Check it out. Okay, okay. It's good stuff. It's good stuff.

Don't look outside here because you're going to be real sad. But it's really about the internal work.

Have you ever come across any religions that are lgbtq plus positive and not just like a recent like we're a gay friendly church or is it always loaded specifically i know okay so i have but they're fairly new is a spaghetti monster so actually if you read up on the church of satanism oh yeah okay but here's the thing it's not about satan it's not about evil it's just they're just being ironic they're actually with socialists they're just very

it's a very social justice oriented church and it's very interesting it's just people hear that and go ah satan but.

It's actually very interesting so that's fine yeah i know i know but but you know i mean it's the i think that the abrahamic faiths are really stewed in that and hindu is i mean but you know like dow i mean they don't really talk about it's all it's it's like it's either you're negative or there's no representation yeah yeah or there's no representation or it's like a highly uh geared towards like a heterosexual marriage and like a family heterosexual family unit so that

might not overtly say it but covertly they're like yeah yeah i see i see but i feel like another thing with that though is is like i practice shin buddhism for or for a bit for a few years and like the scripture itself doesn't say anything about anything against homosexuality at all right it's just very like you know connectedness like being the present you know love everyone beautiful message like a lot of it resonated with me but what i found it was the people in the church.

You know who brought their homophobia uh to church that made it a very interesting interaction right like the main yeah so that's what that's been my experience i remember wait so the church that i went to yeah yeah yeah so were they they were homophobic it there were microaggressions so like the the reverend for a while he would refer to me as.

Instead of saying like husband or boyfriend i would be partner and like that wouldn't bother me if you did that with everyone else totally if you're equal with that then i'm fine but like if you're saying oh this is the boyfriend girlfriend like everyone else and that's different right um say my friend yeah yeah exactly their best friend yeah yeah but i will say that they they grew and learned because we did have conversations because we

would fill out forms for their version of like Sunday school. I forgot what it's called. And they'll only be mother, father. And I'll be like, well, actually, you know, we need another box, you know. So it's just like the little microaggressions. But again, they listened and they grew. And before the pandemic hit, that's where we're going to have our wedding. Yeah. Okay. They're like, you're the mother, right? Oh, God. I mean, that's where I put my name.

Yeah checks out yeah but i but i think because of that because i think also we need to i view also religion as like a colonial thing like christianity is not my my people's original religion right like i have no idea what my original original religion is right i have bits and pieces of it you know so i think the reason why there's still a lot of phobia in like other religions like hinduism there's touches of it is because of the colonial aspect of christianity it's just like everywhere you know

yes royal talk it's true yeah what about you guys any other conversion thoughts any other any other things if you had to if someone was wanted to still be religious after coming out and what tools can they utilize to continue to try to continue their faith as well as walk in their truth.

I have a test that I do with folks that are doing that, and it's literally like a 30-question test, and it kind of pulls apart different ideas about what it means to be a Christian, all the way from very fundamentalist to conservative to very liberal, and have them kind of look through and see what kind of connects with them.

And then I see if we can find like a church that has like a similar belief system so that's something I'm working on with a client right now and it's hard because there's some things that are very very conservative but it but what I find is that it's giving her the opportunity to like really see that like she can still hold on to a lot of the faith that she has and meet other people that have that as well. So that's just one of the tactics that I use.

But I mean, it's really just a lot of conversation around what's important to them and honoring where they're at. Because I had a client, it took her over a year and a half to leave very fundamentalist church. And she had a partner and she was very compartmentalized and she was just struggling and a lot of pain. And it took her a lot of time, but her faith is very important. She actually has a fairly conservative faith outside of the queerness.

So working to help her try to navigate through those things, it's a process. It's a process. It's a process, yeah. Because we're talking about things that feel innate to you, not just that. Like it's a part of you. It's a part of you, yeah, exactly, exactly. But I believe it can be done, I do. I 100% believe it can be done. Patience and the faith. Patience and the faith. Yes. Yes. Yes. Theme of the day. Yeah. So just read it in your room alone. Don't involve nobody else.

Because they're going to fuck you up. No, that's not right. You can find a place. You can. You can. Everybody has their community out there in some form or some sense. We just have to get out there and be kind to one another and find it. Yes. I think that speaks to a point that you said, right? Align with yourself and you're going to find the people, right? Yeah. Absolutely. The work is understanding yourself. And where all those messages came from. Right? Right.

Because you're getting messages from people and they shit ain't together. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Why the fuck am I listening? Exactly. Right? I know. That's a primary thing I say to my clients. Do you like the way this person's living their life? No. Okay, then. So if you don't, let's think about this a little bit more. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I had one random last question. This is kind of random. It's not random. It looks like it's written. It's written down, though.

Yeah, go for it. How does the lack of choice in religious upbringing affect an LGBTQ plus individual's sense of self and autonomy and personal freedom later down in life? I read that question. Did you? And you know, when I read it, I thought...

He's trying to head me up because when you because when you said lack of choice i don't even think they're seeing it like that at that time yeah because you're just like you're just in it yeah you're indoctrinated so i don't even think people see that see it in that term like you see it now because of what you've been through true you're just kind of like going And understanding there's like other religions. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't approach it as like, I see you didn't have like a choice.

I approach it like, okay, this is what you were raised in. Let's talk about what that means to you. Let's talk about where these messages came from. And we go from there. Okay. My question was incorrect. No, your question was deeply personal. Go. There you go she's correct never wrong, bitch I didn't even have a choice to be gay but how am I already in trouble for something I had no choice to be fuck you I guess that's essentially what I wanted to say to my question.

Well is there any other questions folks I don't have any questions but I am so glad that you were able to find the time to come and talk to us because this was a great wonderful conversation it was very insightful like especially your childhood that's chef's kiss well thank you and i enjoyed meeting with y'all as well and i'd love to do it another time can you tell us again the name of your upcoming book when when it's coming out so it's going to be

about another year and a half before it comes out okay the working title, They don't like the title I chose, so I don't know what it is. But people can follow me on my annrusso.org website, and they can join the mailing list, and they'll get my little once every four months newsletter because I don't want to drive people crazy. And when a podcast comes out, I send that on that list, and then when a book

is going to come out, I'll send that as well. And then we'll set you up when your book comes out. Yes. Sign copies for everybody. Sign copies. Hey, eBay. If only. Well, everyone, I think that was a good one. All right, then. I'd like to thank again, Anne Russo for coming to the studio and being with us today. I'd like to say thank myself Nino, Dr. Mikey and Christophe from all of us here at the Queer LBC you're good enough you're smart enough and doggone it people like you goodnight.

Oh that was lovely thank you so much that was a oh.