Inside the System & the Fight for Justice

Hey y'all, this podcast contains potentially disturbing content.

Our show includes graphic references to topics such as sexual abuse, self-harm, violence, eating disorders, explicit language, and sexual acts. Listener discretion is advised. This show is for mature audiences only. Good morning and welcome back to another episode of the Queer LBC Podcast. I'm your host, Nino. My pronouns are he, him. Thank you for asking. I have with me here, my fabulous cohorts. Yo, it's me, Christoph, your city top liaison. My pronouns are he, him, and dad, motherfucker.

Dr. Mikey here, your local, licensed, and practicing therapist for entertainment purposes only. My pronouns are he, she, all of them. Welcome back, everybody. Today is a special freeballing episode because we don't have any plans. So we're just going to talk about whatever the fuck we want to today. What's your career joy been like?

You guys been watching Drag Race? Do you care? I don't give a fuck about nothing. About nothing. About nothing. But now I've been watching, this is called Drag Race. God damn it. Drag Race. Yeah, Drag Race has been good, but I haven't watched the previous last week episode. But I like how they did the new setup of like how it's bracketed. So they got like, what, eight new queens every three weeks? Yeah. So that's a good kicker.

And a lot of shadiness has been going on. But, you know, we shall see how it ends. Hopefully soon, I think we'll see the semifinals when all the three brackets will come back. Yeah, this Friday is when the semifinales are announced. Because this is the end of the third bracket. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, so I'm going to miss two. Oh, you're two. Because I didn't see last week, and I'm not going to probably see this week.

Because I'll be up in that good old last week of Pride Month I'm going to San Francisco to celebrate. That's cool. I've never been to San Fran Pride. Right, me either. So I've been to San Francisco Folsom. Oh, okay, okay. Right, you know. So I'm going to try to compare cherries to apples. Yeah, no, girl. Are you going to be the big group? No, just a couple of friends. Yeah, one of our old castmates, Guy. and then one of our friends that stay out there. So it's going to be quite interesting.

That's cool. To say the least. So I'm excited for that. So I may not see that episode until... Probably not. What part of the hood are you saying? Yo, I guess it's better than mine, bro. I don't even really know. I just, you know, booked the flight and said, fuck it, where we going? Yeah. We'll see where we sleep. Because I forget what part of the town he stays in, but I think it's usually like, on the other side of Castro. So not in Castro, but, you know, not too far.

There's like the Mission District, which I think is really close to it. That's what I want to say. But yeah, the drag race, I can't wait to see how all the three brackets are going to come together and gag to see who they go against now. So that's kind of the reason I want to see that, just to see like, oh shit. Other than that, yeah. Yeah. I'm watching Drag Race.

I really, i love drag race i think it's just so entertaining and i really love this new format and it's like it's straight friendly it's just fantasy football apparently barf.

I never understood that whole bracket thing i'm like that's not an accurate way to see who's the best it's not it's not i'm like that's so based on chance like yeah i've two queens battled each other and they weren't you know i mean it would have it would all come out different, but now it's neither here nor there did you do anything else from pride No, I just did Long Beach Pride and I did Pride in Queens, New York when I was there. Ha ha, yes.

And... What was that like? It was cool. It was packed. There was a lot of people. Oh yeah, you went to Stonewall Inn? I went to Stonewall Inn too. That was really fun to see the historical part. I think I talked about it like last podcast. Oh yeah, they got me a hat, y'all. They got me a historic Stonewall hat. I love my gay memorabilia. Right? It was really cool. I liked it. But my career has been Drag Race. I really enjoy the shadiness, even though I don't want to experience it. I know.

The shadiness that was the queen. Mistress. Dude, like that just rubbed me the wrong way. But I guess, one, it makes great TV. It does. Secondly, but I hope that person knows that karma comes back to you. Yeah. So... I think that once she goes with this new bracket, all hell going to break loose. I can't wait to see who's going to come back as whoever the judge picks up and tells like, oh, well, you've been chosen to come back and fight your way back to the crown.

That's going to be exciting to see. I hope one of them is what's the trans girl? Carrie. Carrie Colby. Yeah. Because she was actually good. And then it was a I wonder who was who would you want to come back in the first bracket yeah the first bracket I don't know my top three got into to the first bracket because I really like Bosco, Bosco was good yeah and then the new one that got eliminated first what's her name.

The I can't remember their name yeah yeah yeah I'm bad with these queens yeah, to be honest like first bracket was so long ago I don't even know who was in it, look I'm about to start watching it again just to get a fucking memory tragic and what's been your queer joy lately i have no queer joy i'm just queer tragic it's like too much it's too much for me no it's it's enough no it's fine no it's been weird no it's okay i've been up i've been i've been on a roller coaster of emotions i mean

how can you not be i mean that's also true well it's been different because like what was the last thing so i feel like so we went to the no kings protest i don't know if we updated the last time no no no it was before that right yeah we went to no kings protest in long beach and it was pretty freaking epic i mean it was nice to be part of the biggest protest in all of united states history right allegedly which i would assume that would be world history.

I mean, they don't do world history anymore. If it's not for them, it's not going in the books. Right. Well, it was cool. It was actually really nice going out there and seeing all the people who believe in the same thing that you do. And realizing you're not the only person out there who doesn't want to see people torn apart from their families. Right. Exactly. So that was nice. It was also nice that, like, there was zero police presence that you could, like, notice.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I definitely felt like I saw a couple undercover cops walking to the parade. Just, like... Like on the sidelines? Not even close to the parade. Just, like, kind of, like, in the area when we were walking. Oh, okay. Like, I would just see, like, random, like, low-key men with, like, ugly skinny sunglasses and black shoes and, like, one thing in their ear. You're like, you look lost. Oh, okay. I'm like, yours shouldn't be on Broadway, sir.

This is not your hood. This is not your hood. Like, what's up? And then I've been off of work for, like, the past, like, two weeks. So it was kind of just like, ugh, I don't know if I'm going back to work. But then I am going back to work. That's queer joy. That is joy. Not really. Yeah, I guess it's not queer joy. Well, I guess it's financial joy. Yeah, financial joy. Which brings you to queer joy. Because if you ain't got no money, you can be like, right. Exactly. It's true.

But, yeah, to speak about the No Kings protests, it was good to see how all the cities, a lot of the major cities, have had that No Kings protest, and then to see how, There was probably, I don't know how many, but I've seen the photo of D.C., the White House, whatever the fuck he called it. It was very miserable. Oh, yeah. Everyone looked bored. Bored and terrible. Yeah. So sad. Right. Like a military parade? Right. His ode to North Korea for some reason. Because we need to watch them. Yeah.

Like, I know what the damn tank looks like, bitch. Wasted goddamn time and money. But it's ridiculous. but you're over here like flaunting your imperialism that has like caused so much harm around the world. Very sad. Very obvious. Yeah. Oh yeah. Did you see the hetero awesome fest? Oh my God. Like same vibes. Same vibes. And that was in Idaho. That's so stupid. You would think that it would be more of a success. But people are like, why the fuck would I want to go to that? Yeah.

The fuck? Women don't like men anyway. Right.

Y'all are fucking tragic either pick the man or pick the bear and all the women was picking bears yeah like i can get that motherfucker bear some honey and he'll be all right you know if i tell a man like no then i might lose my life i think it's interesting that they put so much money behind it i kind of was thinking like what were you what were you expecting like a huge crowd of like straight men only because then that would be gay because no women are like i'm so proud to be,

heterosexual or not any that I know, really. Right. I really don't meet, like, straight, proud females. I don't even meet straight, proud men. And I feel like from the pictures I saw, it was just, like, a bunch of dudes...

Like a bunch of random men yeah it was very sad i'm like you probably just had a circle jerk and caught it a day good y'all wanted a straight pride there you go so much right disappointing i should have sent that to my cousin because my cousin once back in the day he sent me a post being like why is there no straight pride and i'm like oh my god well one there is it's every day it's literally every day but i saw at that at that festival that this musician got up and he

did a song about a trans man i heard yeah and then they kicked him off the stage like how do you book an act that isn't even like proud to be straight i know or like trans friendly like well i mean to be proud to be straight i guess you don't have to shit on other people that is true that is true not one in the same maybe they were just trying to be like we are actually just proud to be straight we're very happy with it we don't mean no harm to you guys no that's fucking stupid yeah no no

i'm glad it flossed yo very sad and now we're going into war with iran oh my god but yeah i'm kind of like over this whole like sleeper cell thing like after everybody like after like people are being abducted in the streets by fucking men in fucking masks and you're you think i'm gonna be upset that iranians are going around shooting people like if anything i feel like they're more justified.

Okay like if i heard that was an iranian sleeper stall like woke up and went and did whatever i'm like well maybe we shouldn't have bombed the fuck out of their country idiots anyways i saw that that's ridiculous i don't know i don't know either no one knows it's all about i mean war brings profit, Because it puts the community at fear. So now people are like, oh, shit, now I got about this. Like, make sure I have everything in order, this, that, and the other.

But also, they're making money because, you know, government is spending money on, like, you know, getting money back and forth. It's all a fucking plot. Yeah. No, it's true. That's the name of the game, right? Right. Through all these ICE raids, who's gotten rich? All these people who own the construction, the correctional facilities. The correctional facilities, right. The jails. All the 1%ers are making money off the ICE raids, off this war.

It's just all about fucking money, and we just need to dismantle all this fucking bullshit and start off fresh. I mean, they're just stealing people to turn them into slaves, essentially. Yeah, yeah. More money. It's ridiculous. More profit. Like, what do you need that much money for? Right. And then you see this old stupid motherfucker, Bezos, fucking renting out Venice. I'm confused by that. The whole city? How does that be? That's why I don't know.

But I've seen that post. There was like somebody, like, they made a big poster. It was like, if you have enough money to rent out Venice. You can pay more taxes. You can pay more taxes. Yeah. And then the cops came and. So they're like, they're not even having that shit over there. They were like, what the fuck, bro? That's such a pussy mentality. Like, I'm a police officer and I have to protect the billionaire's feelings.

Right. I mean, shit, that's the name of the game because them motherfuckers is playing their salary. Fucking sad. No, we're paying their salary. Exactly. It's coming out of our taxes. I mean, that's true. That's true. What's been giving me queer joy is seeing all these videos of people standing up to ice and telling them to get the fuck out of the place. Oh, you see the one in Belle? Which one? Belle. Belle Gardens. Like Belle Gardens? Yeah. What was the situation?

I'm not sure. So ICE came and was kidnapping people, and the people at Bell just came out and showed out. They, like, slashed their tires. Oh, shit. They broke their windows. Nice. And they, like, they scrammed out of there. Good. And I don't know where this was, but I don't know if you guys seen it where the ICE agents was sleeping. Like, they went in, like, at nighttime and just made noise all night until the motherfuckers left. Yeah.

So that happened in Whittier. well it happened in a lot of places but I saw it on Whittier they did that here in Long Beach because there was a holiday inn but a holiday inn yeah. It was like, damn. Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. I love that. And I also heard that California is making ICE officers that they can't wear their masks anymore. They can't wear their masks anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they should also identify themselves.

Right. They still not identify yourself like, bruh, who the fuck are you? Yeah. And I saw there's a huge list too where people are collecting data about the ICE agents. There's a website where you can go look up who are ICE agents now.

Really? Uh-huh. Good. but I do love that is what we can give me queer joy is seeing the people come out and like telling them fucking no and like busting their shit up right yeah like I I get happy when I see people being like let me see your fucking idea and give me your badge number then get the fuck out and you know what's so crazy is they do flee and it's like well you must know you're doing illegal shit very easily and I almost think like I'm not trying to say

this to put anyone's life in danger But I almost think that they don't even have bullets in half of those fucking guns that they're showing around. Because they don't really be shooting anybody. They just be shoving it in your face. Yeah, just intimidation. Yeah, fear. Yeah. Because they're all a bunch of fake little bitches. Fuck, I hate them so much. Oh, my God. I saw a post that was like, we should all just dress up as ICE agents and take the people and then just

take them home. And I'm like, that's true. I mean, everybody else is fake in the damn costume. I mean... Why not? Why not just go and wear a fucking fake costume like everybody else is and cause more ruckus? Go cause more chaos. Like, this is mine, motherfucker. Like, if you aren't identifying yourself, how the fuck, why should I? Yeah, you're literally just like. How you gonna know? Right. Literally. Show me your badge. No, show me your badge, motherfucker. I heard a story allegedly

that an ICE agent arrested another ICE agent. What the fuck?

Well all right well this was a quick quick free ball yeah free ball tea just we just steeped the tea we just steeped that tea now we're on for a break, Love you guys. Hey, y'all. Christoph here. And we just wanted to say thank you for all the love and support. But don't forget to go ahead and give us a five-star review, a like, a heart, a comment. You know, they all help the podcast a lot. From all of us here at the Queer LBC, we greatly appreciate you. Now back to the show.

And we're back. So today, we're deep diving into the justice system, or maybe the injustice system, depending on how you look at it. And joining us today in this discussion is a public defender who is in the courtroom trenches every day, fighting for people the system would rather forget. We're talking about deportation, racial profiling, drug abuse, homelessness, everything, and how public defenders are often the last line of defense for everyone.

So I'll have you introduce yourself. Who are you? What are you? Why are you? Hey, everyone. Nice to meet you guys. My name is Chris Borzin. I'm a Los Angeles County public defender. I practice here in Long Beach. I'm a Long Beach local as well. Yeah, the LBC. I've been a public defender for about three years now, working in the criminal legal system here in Los Angeles County.

Before becoming a public defender, I actually worked in the Los Angeles County Child Welfare System, representing parents who entered the child welfare system or who have had their kids removed through the child welfare system. So helping parents reunify with getting their kids back. So I did that for about four, practiced that area of law for four years before becoming a public defender. Nice, nice. Very nice. Yeah, it was very rewarding. I enjoyed it. So what exactly inspired you?

To get on the path that you are on now? Sure. So growing up, a little bit about myself, both of my parents are immigrants. My mom is an immigrant from Mexico. My dad was an immigrant from Iran. So just seeing them navigate the legal system, seeing them immigrate to the United States, really, you know, growing up, I knew I wanted to be on a path where I could give back to other people. And being a public defender, you know, I was kind of always drawn that direction to the court system.

It fascinated me. And then wanting to help people, especially help people from underserved communities, people from marginalized communities, sometimes people that the system has often forgot about them. And I wanted to be a public defender, to be a voice for those people. And you get to be an advocate for them every day in court. You get to talk to them and be their voice. That is awesome. I mean, yeah, that is, I feel like probably the most direct way to help people, right? Yeah.

Let's see. One other, I guess, really cool thing about the work is you get to, you know, tell a story for your client. One big part of the job, one of the many aspects is jury trials. And you get to tell your client's side of the story that's often not heard until they decide to stand up for themselves and go to trial. So when people go to court and they're always like, you shouldn't defend yourself. Is that because why is that?

Like, why do we need people to defend us? And why don't why do we just not go up there and tell our own shit? Sure. That's a great question. You know. It's probably best that people, when they go to court, have a lawyer there who has certain background, training, and experience, a lawyer there to represent their interests. And oftentimes, I've been in court where I see someone who wants to represent themselves, or we call it go pro purr.

And sometimes a person can say things in court that maybe they're incriminating themselves or saying things that hurt their case, and they don't always realize that. And they think they're speaking out in their best interest, and they are. They're fighting for themselves, but they're not realizing that some of their statements are hurting themselves. People be talking too much. Yeah, right. Way too much. Best information is best. Right? Yes.

Especially in a criminal court setting, because there's two sides to the table. There's the defense side, and then on the other side is the prosecutor. And anything your client says that is self-incriminating, especially in court, will be used at a later date. And it may not be for that case either, right? Or is it based off that case itself? Well, you know, based on that case itself or, you know, depending on how complicating the case is, it could be used against them. And another charge.

Yeah. So, I mean, generally speaking, it's best for a person to, you know, have a lawyer there who's trained, that has the experience, that knows how to protect their interest representing the client. Okay. Well, that's good. I would definitely need that. I would definitely be that person who has the confidence to fight for myself and then just fuck myself up. And then I killed the guy. Wait, damn it.

But it was cool. I wanted to touch on something. You said you started off with the child welfare before coming a public defender. Yeah. What made you want to switch into regards of being a public defender and being a public defender, a lot of people get a lot of, I guess, understanding that this is a job that people don't want to do. Yeah. And, you know, one thing I love about being a public defender and even a court-appointed lawyer in the child welfare system is I get to represent my

clients. I get to advocate for them at no cost to them. You know, my clients can be, you know, maybe indigent, homeless, maybe have never had anyone advocate for them, but I get to put up a defense for them. I get to investigate their case. I get to appoint experts to help work up a defense, and it's at no cost to them. And I love that about the job because I never have to say, because you maybe are poor or can't afford this, you don't have a right to a great defense. Right.

And a lot of people have that misunderstanding. It's like, oh, since I don't have the money to get a good lawyer, that the PD ain't, I mean, the public defender is not going to put the work in. But in reality, you're going to put just as much work in and advocate on your behalf because it's not about the money. Yeah, absolutely. It's absolutely not about the money.

And if anything, I've seen on the contrary, you know, being in court every day where someone has perhaps hired a private attorney, paid this person thousands of dollars, and I've had that private attorney come to court and be like, hey, do you think this is a good offer? Or, you know, do you think I should resolve this? And I'm like... That's all you. Yeah. What the hell? No, no, no. Or I've seen someone flee a client to a terrible offer where I'm like, wait, what's going on here? Right. Yeah.

So, you know, it's the contrary. And I can say, you know, when you go to that courthouse and you see jury trial after jury trial happening, those are majority public defenders setting those cases for trial.

They're the ones, you know, saying put 12 in a box. Put 12 in a box and prosecutor, you better prove it. If you're going to bring these charges, you better prove every charge beyond a reasonable doubt. And we're going to fight you tooth and nail the whole way. And it's all about being a great storyteller. Yes. And at the end, if you come down to the pen and needles of it all, you got to be a great storyteller. Yeah.

And I mean, every client's, you know, when you get a case, you read a police report. And the police report is very, I don't want to say one-sided, but it's one version of what happened. You know, the police go out, they respond to a call, they talk to, you know, a neighbor, they talk to an alleged victim, we call them a complaining witness, and, you know, they write a report.

But when you get to talk to your client and ask them, hey, you know, any witnesses that maybe aren't in the report, you get some investigations going, you know, hear from your client, like, what really what happened? What are the dynamics? You get to tell your client's story when you go to trial.

Nice yeah i feel like i also had that misconception going back to what you guys were saying about public defenders being like a ledge like not good because i just assumed right the same thing like oh they're free so that means bad yeah and i mean not free doesn't always mean excellent that's true yeah i was gonna say do you are you allowed to discuss like other cases i don't know i'm just gonna ask you are you keeping up with any public cases do you like watch like that kind of stuff you know,

I've kept up with some public cases, probably not to the extent that I would like to, just because I work a lot. Right. I mean, shit. So if you were to ask me about, like, hey, that Karen re-trial, I know typically what it's about, but I haven't followed, like, the nitty-gritty. I don't even know what that is. What about the Ditty trial? Yeah. I think you know about the Ditty trial? You know, I've been— You said that's out of my wheelhouse. I don't know about that.

I've been keeping up and just hearing the testimony and, you know, what's been said about the Ditty trial. I wish it was televised, but federal court is not open to the public. That's another question I have for you, sir. Yes. How do you get cameras in the court and how do you not? And like, why did we get to watch all of the Johnny Depp shit that I didn't need to see? And why did we not get to see other things like Kardashian drama or something like that?

So one, I guess, simple answer to that question is federal proceedings are not, do not have media access or are not televised. That's why you see cases like P. Diddy's trial. That's in a federal court. You know, it's not televised by the media. There's no cameras allowed in the courtroom. But when you have cases like Johnny Depp's trial that's in a state court, a different, we call them jurisdictions, a different type of setting or jurisdiction,

those jurisdictions allow, you know, media presence. They allow cameras. So that's why some cases can be televised and some can't. Wow. Good to know. I've always wondered. I'm like, why am I seeing your nonsense? That's why in a lot of federal cases, you'll see there is those cartoon sketches. Those cartoon sketches and whatnot. Drawing Cassie Ventura upset on the stand, but we don't see the actual live play-to-play.

And I also am curious on, I feel like they dismiss evidence so often for stupid reasons, even though it's clear evidence. They'll have a video of somebody literally beating the shit out of someone and be like, well, we've dismissed it because they... Gave it in here. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, how does that work? Sure. So, I mean, before every trial, especially jury trials, you have to go through evidence.

They're called motions in limni. I won't get too much into the legal jargon, but the judge has to decide what evidence the jury gets to see and hear. And based on, you know, whatever arguments are made and there's rules of evidence, the judge can exclude certain evidence It's based on, you know, certain reasons, you know, it's, you know, the jury shouldn't hear this. It's too inflammatory. It's too, we call it prejudicial. It's not relevant for the jury to hear.

You know, the jury doesn't get to hear everything under the universe if it's not relevant. If it's not relevant to the case because they can picture that person in a negative light, even though it has nothing to do with the charges made against them. Exactly. Yes. So not everything, the jury doesn't get to hear at all. If I tell the whole story. If not, I mean, maybe a one-week trial could turn into a three-week trial. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And the jury is probably like, I don't, why am I listening to this? This has nothing to do with the charges. Exactly. But yeah, so I mean, that's why you sometimes won't hear a certain piece of evidence in the trial, because not everything gets to come in. Yes. Now, do you have a lot of, come across a lot of LGBTQ plus cases as a public defender? You know, yeah, I have a lot of clients, especially I practice here in the local Long Beach area that are, you know, part of the LGBTQ plus community.

That's something, you know, when I'm talking to clients, I always, you know, want to inquire, especially clients that are in custody. Because if we have clients that identify as part of our community, we want to make sure that if they're in custody in jail, that they're safe. You know, that they're being housed in the proper, you know, they have in LA County, they have housing units based on different divisions. And there is an LGBTQ population in the LA County Jail.

Yeah. And sometimes for clients protections, because you don't want to miss house someone and then they could be harmed. Harmed. Yeah.

So you do come, oftentimes have clients that are part of our community. So that's, cause that's always, I wanted to know because I know a lot of people don't want to be upfront with their sexuality or their sexual orientation, but especially if you're going into a, the legal system is something that you do want to make sure that you let your lawyer know so that you are placed in safety. Yeah. Because if you don't, and then you, you know.

Because I've heard of the gay tank. I've heard people say this, like I've been put in jail, but I was put in the gay tank, aka like segregated because I'm gay. And I was always wondering if how true or not that was. Yeah. I don't know if a tank per se. That was a term that I heard. Yeah. But there's definitely housing units and some for LGBTQ populations.

I can tell you, especially for clients that identify as transgender, you know, we want to make sure that they're in a population where they won't be harmed because I've, you know, had clients that were misclassified. Perhaps if they were biologically born a male or female and then presenting as the other gender, you know, you don't want them to be misclassified and then be hurt later on. So you want them to be protected. So that's always something up front, you know, we're looking for.

Interesting. Interesting. That makes me feel like more comfortable to want to commit crimes. Just kidding. Just kidding. So have you seen anything different now that this second Trump era has gone in? Is anything changing for you? Is like the laws changing? You know, in terms of are we talking more like immigration wise? A little bit. Everything. So everything's in their attack. You know, I could see a lot more fear with this current administration and specifically for our immigrant communities.

Especially having clients of different legal statuses that need to come to court. You know, that, yay, they're ordered to come back to court. But there's this fear of, if I come to court, am I going to be detained by ICE? Is something going to happen to me? And it's a righteous fear. there. We know what's been going on. We see people being literally taken off the streets by ICE. So it's trying to reassure clients, we see you, we hear you.

We try and advise our clients to the best of our ability. In fact, I'm going to pull out, we have these cards that we hand out to our clients. Oh, the red cards? The red cards. And here, I'll give you guys some of these. I have a few of them. Yeah. So, I mean, just to advise our clients, you know, about the right to remain silent, you know, immigration protections, you know, just give them general advisements. But we also, unfortunately, can't guarantee them that, hey, if you come to court.

You know, ICE may or may not be there. I can't promise that. Because I know, I'm sorry, real quick, because I know some federal offices are deemed to be private property depending on the jurisdiction. But like with a federal court, and since this is happened by federal aspect, are they able to go into federal courts? So, I mean, ICE being that they're a federal agency, I would imagine that, you know, they're not prohibited from entering another federal building.

Yeah. Similar to how ICE is a federal agency, they can still enter state courts. Like, you know, your local courthouse, maybe in downtown LA, like criminal court building, Claire Justice Falls, or Long Beach, Georgia, Duke Majin, they can, you know, enter, you know, those courthouses.

I'm not saying it's right or you know it's unfortunate but they they're able to oh go no i was wait did you have something else no no i was gonna say that that people have the right to kind of like be scared to show up to court because we've seen people get snatched up and detained outside of court even that judge is is i mean right arrested for yeah yeah so when all these basically, I don't know, would you consider them illegal arrests?

You know, I, in terms of what's happening, it's very unfortunate. You know, whether they're lawful or not, it's such a complex issue, but I definitely don't, In terms of my opinions, you know, seeing these officers masked, not identifying themselves, not— No Miranda rights. No Miranda rights. So, you know, not giving their badge numbers. I think it's, you know, a big—it creates a big distrust in the community. Because who—first, who are these people? You know, who are the—these officers,

quote-unquote, arresting people? Where are they taking them? How long are they being detained for? Do these officers have a warrant? I mean, we've seen actual credible stories of citizens being arrested by mistake because they're not verifying who they're just snatching off the street. So let's say you are a citizen who gets arrested. Can you now sue the state or something? I mean, I would imagine you have a right to file some sort of lawsuit.

I mean, you're having your freedoms restricted by the government unlawfully, especially if their basis for their detaining you is we think you're undocumented. And guess what? We didn't confirm that. Right. Before we put you in handcuffs. Literally, your job. Before we held you in, you know, restricted freedom. And custody and everything like that.

Because to me, it just kind of seems like, how can you actually hold these ICE officers to account? Like you said, they're not saying who they are. They're not identifying themselves. Because it's like, they could literally be any person off of the street. So where does it become stand your ground? And how would that work? Like, let's say I think this person is not an ICE agent.

Let's say I legitimately think this is a random stranger and I choose to defend myself against them because they're trying to snatch me. Like, is there no recourse? Like, oh... I feel like this is very, like, what we're seeing is very unchartered territory. And this is where it's yet to be seen. You know, people have a right to defend themselves, you know. Self-defense is always, you know, righteous defense.

But when it comes to these officers, if they're not identifying themselves as police, you know, especially if they're not, let's say they're not wearing the vest or the badges and they're just snatching you. You know, this is unchartered territory, what we're seeing.

I think these, you know, people are going to be filing civil claims against the government in the future, you know, for monetary compensation for the harm they've experienced, you know, the detention, the unlawful detention, and any physical harm that they've experienced from the government. I feel like, how do you prove that you have emotional distress? Well, you know, that's, you know, probably a better question for a civil attorney, but I would imagine, hey, people, you know, PTSD is real.

You know, we know PTSD is real. People that experience trauma that perhaps undergo, you know, go to therapy afterwards, have to see a doctor, you know, there's, you know, ways people deal with certain stress and traumatic stress. So, I mean, documented, you know, therapeutic sessions and dealing with trauma from what people have endured. So as a person who knows the law, I already know how you feel, but tell the people, how do you feel about seeing all these things just go to the wayside?

Miranda rights, forget it. Identification, forget it. How does that feel to you? I mean, it's very upsetting to see. It's very upsetting because you see the distrust that people, you know, I think there's going to be a ripple effect of why should people trust what the government is saying and what the government is doing. And, you know, people want to, you know, if the government wants people to trust them, you know, the government needs to do better. Yeah.

You got to make us trust you. I mean, and it's not like the government was leading a gold star standard for this. It wasn't five stars. No, no. It was already, there was already issues. But I think there's going to be more distrust in what the government's saying.

Mm-hmm so i feel like there is a big i feel like i see a lot of posts claiming i mean i don't know how real they are it's the internet but a lot of posts claiming like these are fake ice agents and like there's a lots of them about lots of stories that i hear about people who pretend to be ice agents and then taking people and doing god knows what either like i've heard people getting raped people just being beaten just

from randos pretending to be ice like with that like on the back burner, right? Like, I feel like, yeah, how does stand your ground? How does that work?

You know, so stand your ground really is this concept of, you know, being able to defend yourself, you know, defend yourself from if there's some sort of, you know, threat or credible threat, you know, what's happening again with these ICE agents, and whether some of them are, you know, are real ICE agents or not, you know, again, it's, it's such a unique situation where, I feel like this is yet to be seen. I think as time passes, we're going to see more investigations done into these arrests.

And time will tell that, you know, what injustices have been committed. You know, the truth always reveals itself with time and more deep diving into the truth. And is California a stand-your-ground state? You know, is California a stand-your-ground state? That— Hmm. I don't believe so, unfortunately. You know, and I've and I even think the Trump administration recently has said, I want ICE to focus on particularly Democratic city sanctuaries.

Right. It's punishing us. Yeah. I mean, he already came for Long Beach after we became the sanctionary. I mean, the sanctioned city in L.A. County, per se. Him and Newsom, he was like, oh, I'm coming after y'all. And then that's basically how that started. I just saw an ice truck the other day when I was walking in my own neighborhood and I saw I was walking the dog and I saw a black truck with no license plate on the front with like the darkest fucking tint in the windows.

And I just stared at them as I was walking in front of them. I was just like staring at them because I know who's in there. And I'm like, I don't even give a fuck if you're not an ice agent. You deserve this fucking stare. But so let's say you are a citizen and you've seen these like videos of citizens defending against ice.

Yeah. Is that legal? So... Legally speaking, any type of police investigation that's ongoing, whether it be ICE or local law enforcement, unfortunately, if you, as a citizen, non-citizen, or as a person, intervene or interfere with a police investigation, you know, the police may have a basis to arrest you, depending on that type of interference.

And, I mean, we see a lot of people standing up for our immigrant brothers and sisters that are getting just snatched off the street and, you know, putting themselves on the line there. It's very noble, you know, what they're doing, but they, you know, there is a basis to arrest someone for resisting arrest or interfering with a police investigation. But with the key word, a police investigation, a notified police that's badged, identified.

So like, even with that being said, it feels like almost like a contradiction because like some of these agents isn't identifying themselves, one, as a federal agent. They're just like blindfolded, no badge number, no police number, no name, no nothing. So in that sense, I can still say like, well, I don't know what you are without identifying yourself. So how do I know that this investigation is real?

You don't. Yeah. And this is, again, the bigger problem with ICE agents not identifying themselves. You know, not putting a badge number, a name, a face. Face. Stand on business. If you out here doing it, stand on business. Or even a vest that doesn't say even police on it. It says like Amazon. Literally. You got to shift right after. I guess so. And they should be required to identify themselves. If you're going to be out here working with the public. Right.

You know, taking people off the street, you know, taking people's liberties and freedoms, you should show your face. You know, you should identify your badge number. That's where I think accountability on, you know, the government needs to be held accountable for what happens to people. If you think about it, officers, local law enforcement, all wear body-worn camera.

And not to digress, but, you know, a lot of what we do as public defenders is a lot of our investigations is looking at body-worn camera, reviewing if what officers are reporting is accurate or not based on the body-worn camera. But again, it goes back to accountability because body worn camera not only polex, polex, what am I saying? Protects the public, but it protects police officers. It protects everyone.

So it goes back to accountability. And that's where I think it's missing with these ICE agents.

I just, just no accountability when you can't even tell who you are. Because there's scrutiny for officers when, you know, parts of an investigation are just not recorded. When, you know, parts of their body-worn camera just magically shut off. I think back in the days, you know, it wasn't, it was probably more common to see, at least with my practice here in Long Beach, I find that officers, you know, do keep their body-worn camera on a majority of the time.

And, you know, credit to them for doing that, because, again, it protects them and it protects the public and it protects the investigation. The I guess you could say the kid's the word I'm looking for the actual candor to their investigation. Would you say you see a police brutality in terms of brutality? I think, you know, we there's been cases where I've seen not as much brutality, but profiling.

OK. You know, profiling by officers where, you know, I've had cases where I'm like, wait, did you really stop this person because they were riding without a flashlight on their bike at night? Or I think I've ridden through Long Beach without a light on my bike at night and I've never been stopped or, you know, patted down, frisked. So, you know, you start questioning what is the real reason for this stop? We call it a pretextual stop.

Okay. Is that considered illegal to profile? So pretextual stops are not, you know, there has to be a legitimate basis for a stop. But, you know, oftentimes you'll find sometimes in these investigations, officers trying to justify, you know, the why. But if you think back and look at the bigger picture, you know, sometimes a report may say, yeah, I stopped this person because they're riding a bike on the sidewalk without a flashlight on the bike at night.

But we know you know if you know we know something like this is a black because but then also they can they can also claim it's for safety reasons like i don't want this person to get hit by a vehicle so i stopped them to be like hey like you should have a flashlight you know like in that event you know like almost like the devil's gabby like you know what i want for your safety i pulled you over even though they may not have the conversation goals but like i think

officers can spin it like that in that sense. But what always gets me is when the pullover then leads to the patting down. Something different. I'm going to pat you down. You know, not only am I going to ask for your identification, I'm going to now pat you down. And now I want to search your backpack. And will you let me, you know, they're asking a bunch of questions.

I was like, are you here for my safety or are you just like- Yeah, from why did this go from stopping me for not having a flashlight to needing to search all my property? You know, this escalated to something so much more. Have, um, Jackson? Oh yeah, I was going to say, if you had to tell like residents or like citizens like in regards of. When they should be able to reach out versus, like, reach out to, like, legal assistance, what would be your take?

Or, like, what would you, what's your, like, go-to, like, hey, like, you really need to reach out to a, like, what, legal aid, a public defender? Do you, I know you guys work hand-in-hand with legal aid. So, we don't, we'll work hand-in-hand with legal aid in certain aspects.

Like the public defender's office has like post like record expungement clinics or services like that we often sometimes don't get to meet a client until that first hearing when a charge has been filed or charges and we meet them at the arraignment hearing that's generally when we first meet a client okay but in terms of just clients and you know things they you know people and what they could do if they're ever stopped by the police or or you

know there's an investigation well one One thing I always tell clients, anyone, is you have constitutional right to remain silent. You know, if an officer is asking you questions, you know, what's in your bag? What are you doing? You could say, I want to remain silent. I want to talk to a lawyer. And, you know, officers may still continue with their investigation, but your own incriminating statements don't need to help them with their investigation.

Because they're going to hit you with that one question that's going to make you answer something. They're like, yep, gotcha. Yeah. And, you know, I, one thing I always share with clients is I've never seen someone get unhandcuffed because they chose to talk to the police. Sometimes, you know, I've never seen, like a client that's already handcuffed in, in the cop car. And then it's like, you know, officers like, Hey, if you talk to me, you know, we'll make it easier for everyone.

I've never seen someone get unhandcuffed because they're like, all right. You were right. Yeah. Let me let you go. This is just general knowledge, you know, people should know. You have a constitutional right to remain silent. And, you know, you say it politely. You know, I'd like to remain silent, officer, and I'd like to wait to talk to an attorney. Right. You don't got to be an asshole about it. No, no, no, no. Fuck you, pig. I'm keeping my mouth shut. No, I know. Hey, you know what I'm

saying? Like, yeah. And because... I think as difficult as it may be sometimes, like, the more calm, polite, and even respectful you are, no matter how frustrating that situation is, you know, you keep it in control with your demeanor. And then it's, I want to remain silent. I want to talk to my lawyer. Yeah, because I see a lot of videos of people who are being, like, I guess, harassed by officers. But then they get, like, really quick and, like, aggressive back.

And I'm like, I don't think that's a smart plan. Does that make you look more guilty, like, by being, like, aggressive? Yeah. And, I mean, I get, you know, I don't want to say no one should ever be upset with officers. You know, I can only imagine how, you know, difficult or infuriating it is. And maybe this person, it's been their 10th time stopped by the police. Or, you know, this is a routine issue, unfortunately, because we know,

you know, racial profiling and policing exists. But it's always a matter, I think, of how we control ourselves, how we control our demeanor. The one thing we are able to control about this situation is ourselves. And then just, I want to remain silent. I want to wait to talk to my attorney. And, you know, you'll have your moment to talk to your lawyer, tell them everything that happened, and save it for court. You know, there will be a right time to share this with the right person. Okay.

Do you notice, like, certain demographics of people having the same kind of court issues all the time? Like, are they constantly being arrested for the same type of things? Like, let's say you have a group of, I don't know, Hispanic people. Are they always getting arrested for one thing versus white people who are not getting arrested for the same kind of crime? No, you know, I'd say, you know, crime doesn't just, you know, people aren't, doesn't just target one demographic.

You know, you'll have people that are arrested for domestic violence. You know, domestic violence goes across the board for all demographics. Similar with, you know, driving under the influence. You know, it doesn't just affect one demographic of people. I will tell you, though, I'll have clients that are maybe experiencing homelessness. Homelessness. And, you know, you'll see that a homeless population, some of it struggles with mental health or substance use.

And you'll see a reoccurring, unfortunately, revolving door sometimes of a client who is struggling with addiction. Right.

And it's a matter of really getting this certain demographic connected with services, with services, services in place so that we can start addressing the root of the issue. Now, what I'm glad you brought that up, because I do know that that's a very common thing. But unless that person is because you.

Can the courts mandate rehab? Yeah. So the court itself can say, you know, as in terms of like, for example, if you're pleading a client, if they're negotiating a resolution, a part of the terms of the resolution through negotiating with the prosecutor, if the client is on board, hey, we can do treatment, rehabilitation treatment. And sometimes, however, if a client then abandons treatment, there could be consequences.

You know, consequences for leaving a drug treatment facility, a rehabilitation facility. I will say, though, that the law over the last, you know, 10 years or so has continued to evolve. I think there's been an acknowledgement that we need to be able to provide people with rehabilitation, with services to address these underlying issues, because before it was, you know, straight to jail. Right. Just lock them up and. Yeah. And you can't incarcerate your way out of homelessness.

You can't incarcerate your way out of mental health issues or substance use. So I guess you could say the law has evolved for the better in that respect. But there's still a lot of work to be done in what resources are out there because it's still very limited. There's not enough resources. I mean, there are. But in terms of for the amount of people that still need help. that needs to help. But I also think taking into account like people's demographics going into it and their finances, right?

So like someone who was on house is probably going to be sent to like a county rehab, right? That was more low costs where the care may not be as good, you know, too. So I feel like. Like socioeconomic status plays a role too. And that's an interesting point you bring up. A lot of clients that sometimes I'll deal with may lack essential things like an identification. Or they've never even been connected with Medi-Cal or Medicaid. And thankfully, once we do get them service connected with an ID,

Medicaid, we can then get them into some sort of treatment. through, even if it's, you know, they're using government insurance to help them with treatment, that's an option. Do public defenders do work, like, let's say I have a problem, and now, is it just like you take on cases of, like, criminals, or do you take on cases like, I need to sue a bitch, and I don't have a lawyer? Well, so let me clarify. Public Defender's Office only deals primarily with criminal cases.

Okay, okay. And so the way we are appointed to clients is if, for example, let's say you're given a citation, you need to come to court on this date, you're charged with an offense. On that first date, if you're out of custody, you'll walk into court. And if the public defender's office is able to accept appointment, which most of the time we are, unless there's special reasons why we can't, then you'll meet your public defender on the day of that first court date.

If a person is arrested and they're brought in through LA County Sheriff, they will, you know, public defender will be right there at that window when they come into the arraignment room in Long Beach, it's department one, you know, you'll meet your PD right there at the window and, you know, to be the first point of contact once you get there. Well, since you brought that up, is that why, like, the judge shows came about

due to civil cases not having people able to, like, bring these cases forward? Are those even real? The judge shows? The judge shooting? Yeah. Don't talk about my girl, man. But no, like, you know what I'm saying? Because if it's a civil case, if I want to sue a bitch, like you said, like, how am I going to go about that? I can't go to the civil courthouse and be like, hey, I want to, they can be like, well, I guess you can bring that case there.

But like, yeah, I think civil is different than the criminal because civil is like between two people. Right. And criminal is like between the county. But what if I don't hear? Right. I guess to make a distinction here, criminal proceedings, there's a constitutional mandate under the United States Constitution that says a person brought to criminal court, you know, is accused of a crime, has a constitutional right to have a lawyer appointed for them if they cannot afford an attorney.

Those same protections don't extend in civil proceedings. So there's no right to an attorney to be appointed for you in a civil proceeding. But, you know, because there's no freedom at stake in those civil proceedings, the fundamental right to have a lawyer appointed during a criminal case has to do with because your freedom or your liberty is at stake when you're in a criminal proceeding. Not your cash. Okay. I always wanted to, I mean, I knew it sort of, kind of,

but I was like... You're like, I need protection. Yeah. I mean, just being a legal nerd, the case law is Gideon v. Wainwright. Clarence Gideon actually went through a criminal trial without a lawyer. And he was found guilty at that trial, sentenced to prison. And he wrote... The U.S. Supreme Court from his prison cell saying, you know, I should have had an attorney appointed. And he wrote on his pencil and wrote a letter to the U.S. Supreme Court and they took up his case.

And, you know, that's actually the the precedented case that said, you know, there's a constitutional mandate that people are entitled to an attorney in a criminal proceeding under the Sixth Amendment. Must have been good times back then. Right. Deliver a note to the Supreme Court. Right. doing things for us?

Oh, man. I don't know if the Supreme Court today would do the same thing. Right. This is also true. This is also true. What do you think of that Supreme Court? Oh, man. Well, that, you know, that Supreme Court today, what can I say? What did they do today? Oh, well, I know, I think recently they came out with the ruling that Trump can continue to deport people to countries that are not their country.

Origin that is so ridiculous while you're about that like imagine being deported i don't mean speak that language like the fuck so now i'm an immigrant and a whole nother mother right okay make it make sense and it really goes back if you've been following what's happened in el salvador and that prison in el salvador that fear of just being sent and again the key word is due process you know being sent to this prison indefinitely without any due process any due process.

And are these people ever going to get released? Are they just going to be left there to die? God, I hope not. But what is happening? Yeah, that doesn't really make sense. It's like, okay, you committed the crime of being an illegal immigrant. Now we're going to put you in jail. But what was the sentence? Forever? Yeah. I went back away. Wasn't that the punishment? But now I'm stuck in jail for question mark?

And let's be clear. Being an illegal immigrant or undocumented isn't a criminal proceeding. This isn't a criminal proceeding. This is a separate immigration proceeding. So to even say that these are just criminals. You know, I think this administration has just put a blanket label on immigrants that they're criminals. And this fear-mongering of immigrants, you know, labeling them like with a broad paintbrush and saying they're all criminals. Oh, criminals and shit. Yeah.

And it's even taken it a step further by saying, you know, well, we know they've committed crimes or, you know, these are all people with records, but where's the evidence of that? Yeah. And that's what it's like. Where's the due process? If you say they did committed a crime, where's the crime? Yeah. What happened? And why is this not public information? Like, where is the access to information? The administration's just like, well, trust us. You know, we're the government. Trust us. Girl.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We'll trust you. Yeah. I ain't never trusted you. No. That's what I'm saying. Why trust now? Wild. Absolutely wild. As a public defender, as of right now, how do you see these next four years? You know, these next four years are really going to be trying times. I see them being really trying times just for our nation, our nation as a whole. And I guess, and let me ask, to answer your question specifically, next four years in what capacity?

And in your capacity as a legal public defender. Yeah. Because this is just the start of some of the cases that's going to come forth. And I can just only assume there's going to be more rhetoric coming forth. You know, I think it's a matter of, you know, it's a time for our nation to really reflect on what we want as a democracy.

You know, if we stand on the values of democracy and principles, really holding tight to, you know, what our constitution is, what our constitution requires and demand that of our government. Because if we don't, you know, hold the government to our constitution, then what are we? Right. But, you know, I think these next four years are going to be really trying times for our nation.

And I mean, it's, it's, we're in month seven. and it feel like it feel like month 24 month 7 it's only month 7 bro Jesus and he already has Trump 2028. So since these people aren't getting their due process, are you guys actually seeing that many cases on this?

So in terms of what we deal with on the local level, we haven't, I specifically haven't dealt with any of the immigration matters, you know, of clients being arrested and then, you know, by ICE and taken to a separate immigration proceeding. But, you know, we have had clients, you know, we deal with intersect with clients every day that may not have legal status.

And, you know, there's always different circumstances with clients where maybe someone entered the country with legal status, maybe a work visa, some sort of traveler's visa, student visa, and then that visa is expired, which, you know, then leaves them with no legal status.

So whenever we encounter clients that may have unique immigration issues, as public defenders, we always have to advise clients, you know, if you're convicted of this charge, there could be immigration consequences, you know, and so they need to be well informed about, you know, an outcome resolution in their case, or if they're convicted at trial, what are the immigration consequences that could happen?

So we're constantly advising our clients about, you know, adverse consequences, what we call them. So immigrants did have rights or do have rights at some point in this country. Yeah. I mean, everyone gets due process. Everyone gets due process. That's not the super status. Yeah. Now, sometimes.

You know, immigrant communities are definitely more vulnerable because they don't have, you know, the same unfortunate benefits as like someone that's a citizen that they don't have to worry about losing status or becoming undocumented because, you know, if they plead to a charge or how a criminal conviction can affect them.

Sometimes I'll have clients that if they're in custody, one of their main objectives is I need to resolve this case to be out because I'm afraid that ICE could pick me up in custody on the mere fact that I'm undocumented. And that's a legitimate fear. And so even if a client says, you know, I think there's a defense here, but I may have to sit in jail pending a trial, I'd rather resolve for the fear of ICE getting their hands on me. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Because they can't really go into the jail cell and take a motherfucker. Well, right now, in L.A. County at least, you know, ICE and the police agencies are two separate agencies. You know, they don't cooperate hand-in-hand. Hand-in-hand. But it doesn't mean that that can't change, you know? That sounds so true. Yeah. You know, and, you know, it's hard to make guarantees to people, you know? I can't guarantee that if you decide, You know, if you're sitting in L.A.

County Jail, that ICE may not come. Because they do whatever the fuck they want these days, so. Like you say, it's like we're entering uncharted territory. Yeah. We really are. I mean, I don't know if people ever thought there'd be a day where we'd see ICE patrolling the streets of Los Angeles. Yeah. You know, especially when you see people say, like, well, I thought L.A. was a sanctuary city. You know, but that doesn't mean the federal government can't come in.

Exactly. Just your cooperation with them. Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen a huge impact? Because I know you said you worked with people who are on house. Yeah. And I know Newsom passed a law in which made camping illegal in places. So has there been a huge impact with that and what you've seen? There has been an impact. Each city will have different municipal ordinances or codes or statutes in place that prohibit camping in certain areas, camping in parks.

And so there was a point in time where we would see an increase in case filings, you know, loitering in the park after hours, what they call it, or, you know, camping in public spaces. And, you know, after Gavin Newsom passed that ordinance, we were seeing an uptick in these types of filings. But on the alternative is, you know, well, what's going to be the solution? Because, you know, okay, so you arrest someone, they could sit in jail X number

of days, and once they're released— They're homeless again. Yeah. It's really a matter of, you know, getting people the resources they need so that they have the tools to, you know, get out of poverty, you know, find secure housing. But we did see an uptick in those filings. Mm hmm. That's crazy. Because it's like, there's no public land for me to go live. Right. So you have to purchase your living.

Yeah. And if you don't, like, I don't understand how that, like, I can't go into the woods and just live there because someone's going to be like, this is my property. Yeah. At some, everywhere is someone's property. Right. And this is where, you know, we have to reinvest in our communities with housing, you know, low income housing, housing for our homeless population or houseless population. So that, you know, we can provide them some sort of pathways to reintegrate to the community.

Do you find that a lot of things that you come across in your work have to do with like a lack of resources? I think, yeah, a lack of, you know, lack of resources, you know, first starting with housing, a lack of perhaps just general knowledge, you know, perhaps, you know, a person didn't have a strong upbringing coming up. So now as they got into adulthood, there was like an unstable foundation that led to homelessness.

And trauma. Yeah. A lack of resources when it comes to addiction and being able to understand addiction and tackle that before entering the criminal legal system. So, I mean, there's just a lot of resources that people still need just to survive in the city, in the county.

Yeah because even when a if a person goes to rehab and you complete that you're not like you was in rehab so like i haven't worked on housing you know what i'm saying like so it's like they're just sober and homeless now like now i'm sober but now i want to like now i'm about to be released like so like how do i start that process yeah but it was like the housing market fucking sucks so it's just like well now you got to be on the

list for 17 goddamn years i will say one of the One of the programs that is more recent in the criminal court system, we have different diversions. Diversions are where if clients participate in treatment, rehabilitative services, they could possibly earn a dismissal in their case, avoid a conviction, and then continue to be connected with services while they're on diversion.

So that, when I practiced in adult misdemeanors, was one of the bigger programs that I would always try and connect clients with is Rapid Diversion, because you would have the ability to connect clients with a residential drug treatment program relatively quickly if they were in custody. You could get them into residential treatment within a one to two weeks time span.

Once they were in residential treatment, they could be there for 90 days, and then they would be connected with outpatient services, a sober living. And it was amazing where you could see clients go on this trajectory upwards. I can tell you where I've met clients on day one, you could tell the effects that substance use has had on their body, the clarity in how they speak.

Even just their appearance. And then as they've continued into rehab and been successful, how you see that client's, you know, appearance change for the better. You know, they've sobered up. They, you know, they're able to maintain a conversation. You know, they're, you know, they're speaking with so much more clarity. And then the best part is when you see client complete diversion, you know, they've earned their dismissal. This is something they've worked really hard for.

And then they get to walk out of that courthouse avoiding a conviction because they've entered and completed rehabilitative treatment. And put that work in. And it's, you know, addiction's tough. And sometimes you'll have clients that, you know, maybe they will enter treatment, they'll fall off, and then, you know, re-enter again. And it really comes back to talking to the judges and the prosecutors.

One thing I always say is, if addiction was easy, you know, everyone would get it right the first time. But relapse is a part of recovery. You know, you can't expect people to go into drug treatment and just gold star right away. Right. You know, it's a lifelong, you know.

Battle. battle yeah you know even after you know i always you know encourage clients you continue going to your aa meetings your na meetings you know you have to have the you know they have those tools now to identify what are their triggers if they feel like they're they may use or relapse you know what are your triggers you know what are your coping tools so you know they build these tools and you want to be able to help them you know as they progress in

life when you have like one client let's say they go back into the system, are you constantly there? Are they constantly your client? Do they see different? So it's possible that you could get, you know, the same client again, just based on where the case is assigned, depending on the courtroom, or a colleague will get, you know, assigned the client. But one thing I love about the work we do is all of my colleagues in there are really close.

Like the Public Defender's Office is such a close-knit family. So when we get cases and we say, hey, I think you maybe have worked with this person in the past, I could automatically connect with my colleagues and say, you know what, we know this person, this is the tailored services they need just based on the past history that we know of up their case. So we're always helping each other out with clients that maybe overlap into different courtrooms. Is it like an intimate thing with the client?

Is it like you get to know them? How is that with a client? Yeah. So, I mean, great question. I, you know, with my client, it's, it's a professional relationship, but, you know, a lot of what we do requires building trust. You know, you're dealing with people at some of the most vulnerable points of their life. I mean, I think it doesn't get more vulnerable than maybe seeing someone who's in a jail cell being accused of something.

And so it's, you know, getting this person who may not trust the system at all, rightfully so, you know, getting them to trust you, letting them know, like, look, you know, I'm here to fight for you. Whatever you tell me, I can't tell it to anyone. You know, it's confidential and, you know, I will be by your side the entire process through this entire process. So it's, you know, building a relationship with that client, building trust.

I know I've had some clients that I've worked with for more than a year. We know each other on a first name basis. And even sometimes if I got switched assignments, you know, I have to tell the client, hey, I'm I'm going to a new assignment, but my colleagues are great. And it was kind of like, and don't leave me. I know, putting a pause on a relationship. And sometimes I'd feel so invested in my clients, I'll still go back and like, hey, how are they doing?

Well, why would that happen? Why would they take people off of a case if, you know? Yeah, well, not every, you know, everything in life is, nothing's permanent. Tell me about it. So I'll give you an example. I mean, not like, yes. I recently was switched from adult misdemeanors. I was doing it for three years, and I recently got switched to Long Beach Youth Services, juvenile court. Okay. So I had to tell all my adult clients, hey, I'm actually going to a new assignment.

I see. The person who's taking over is great, but it's not going to be me. And I love all my clients. So, you know, it's hard to let them know that, you know, we may not be seeing each other as much anymore. Okay. I feel that. I thought it was case by case. No. But not like, so you switched the whole department. Yeah, and that's one of the beauties of the job is you get to move into different units, different departments, and, you know, work with, I'm working with the

kids. The youth, yeah. You know, the youth. Get to start them off early in regards of getting them connected to a better life. Yeah, yeah. Working with youth, I enjoy it because it's an opportunity to course correct. You know, you see kids that come in at a very young age, you know, maybe, you know, hey, life, you know, life is tough. Yeah. You know, depending on where they're raised, you know, lack of resources, maybe having a tough time in school.

But you have a good chance to work with them and hopefully deter them from entering adult court. You know, let's, you know, get you on the good path before you turn 18. Because once you pick up a case as an adult, you know, the consequences are so much higher depending on what the allegation is. That's a question. So let's say a client gives you some incriminating information. Is it just like, fuck, why did you say that? And I got to just pretend I never heard it?

Or how does that go? Yeah, well, so one of the biggest confidentialities is attorney-client privilege. It's a privilege is what we call it, the legal term.

But we have to be able to have honest conversations with our clients about what they're accused of and whatever they tell us is completely private you know we can't tell it to anyone unless the client gives us their express permission to to reveal that you know that conversation which you know it's you know that's something very sacred so you know we have to be able to have the not just the good facts but the bad facts you know let's talk let's

have an honest conversation about what happened and whatever they tell their attorney is completely confidential. So here's a hypothetical. Let's say you're on a case. Client's like, but I did murder them. And you're like, great. So it's like. Yeah, so you just have to defend them still and pretend like that they're cool? Yeah. And, you know, whatever the client, again, whatever the client reveals to their lawyers confidential.

And also it's not for me to pass judgment on any of my clients for the circumstances of their case. What you as an attorney are there to make sure that your client is treated fairly by the system.

They're given their due process and that the government is being held to their burden you know because if the government is bringing these charges and making these allegations against you they have to prove that charge beyond a reasonable doubt and you're making sure that the government regardless of what your client is saying they did you know is proving that beyond a reasonable doubt and so you're making sure the constitution the constitutional

rights your clients have are being protected and upheld because that's what our constitution guarantees. Well, that's always been, I always thought about that. I'm like, hmm. And look, you know, regardless of, you know, what client reveals, you know, hey, your client wants a jury trial. Let's go to jury trial. Put 12 in a box. I love a good jury trial. Let's go. How, yeah. How is that? How does a jury happen versus a non-jury? So in adult court, all criminal cases in adult court are jury trials.

You have the, in adult court, you can waive jury trial, which is a unique circumstance of you and the prosecutor to say, you know what, we don't want a jury trial. We will submit to a bench trial where the judge hears the facts. It's rare. I've never done that because I want a jury. Where you don't have a jury trial is juvenile cases. Juvenile cases are bench trials where the judge is the trier of fact.

So the judge listens to the facts of the case and then determines what's true and what's not true. But in adult cases primarily jury trial okay and is judge judy real.

To my knowledge she's a real judge yes but are all those cases with the cameras real they solve it all in 30 minutes how long does a case last like if you if you're going to court is it all different is it just you know they're all different they're each of them have their unique set of issues and I think it depends like what what the end goal is I've had cases that... Perhaps if they're less serious or it's not as convoluted, maybe last a couple

months. Will we investigate and assess how we want to proceed? And I've had some cases last a year and a half. I think one of the longest cases I've had was two years working with the client. But some of these cases, you will litigate issues, and you may win, you may lose, but the fight's not over.

And you know i i can tell yeah one case i had was almost two years and i i really enjoyed working with that client on that case yeah did you guys win you know i guess winning is relative you know i think it was a good outcome for the client after litigating many different issues with the court some were unsuccessful but it was a matter of hey getting this client the best outcome that he deserves and he did deserve in my opinion interesting interesting

very cool any of you guys have anything else do you have anything that you would give some advice because i think we're closing up i don't think i've asked all the questions but do you have any advice or actually no do you see california headed in a bad direction in terms of like criminal justice yeah you know recently there was legislation passed. We voted on the ballot where certain offenses, you see a lot of smash and grabs happening.

Drug offenses now can, after a certain number of misdemeanor offenses, can then become felony offenses. So I think we've seen criminal justice is interesting. I think you see a pendulum go one direction and then it slowly swings its way back the opposite direction.

One of my bigger concerns is seeing, you know, drug offenses like simple possession can turn into felonious conduct, you know, because once those cases are filed as felonies, you're looking at long-term incarceration for people that are still struggling with addiction, you know. And I have colleagues that have practiced in the public defender's office way longer than I have. And I mean, they could tell me stories back in the day when even marijuana was illegal.

And they have clients who are serving long-term prison sentence for possession because of marijuana cases. And they can't come out because it's legal now? Or you'd have to refight it or something? Yeah. I mean, there's resentencing laws and resentencing statutes that have to be litigated. But just imagine, you know, now marijuana is legal, but back in the days, you were still locking people up for marijuana possession.

But, you know, recently we've seen this pendulum kind of swing the opposite direction with higher punishments for drug possession and paraphernalia possession. And, you know, it's again, I've always been the philosophy, you know, you can't incarcerate your way out of addiction. And, you know, it's not just my opinion, but like studies and statistics show that. Yeah. You know, it hasn't worked.

Interesting. So would you say that, I don't know, just from your experience, would you say that the courts just want to put people in jail just to make more profits for their private prisons? No, I mean, I don't necessarily agree with that, that courts are there to put people in jail. You know, you have, you know, prosecuting agencies that file cases.

And I think based on, you know, generally what's happening in current events or like, you know, public safety issues, you know, these rise in certain crime, you'll see an uptick in filings, you'll see more cases being filed. But it's really, as public defenders, we're there to, you know, humanize our clients. You know, what services can we provide these people to help them rather than just incarcerate?

And we're there to defend the Constitution for our clients and making sure that they're treated just, they're treated like human beings, and they're treated fairly. Because I just am such a conspiracy person that I'm just constantly like, oh, they're just trying to make everything illegal so they just can stock up the jails and create more human slaves. So you don't see that? I mean, look, the school-to-prison pipeline is real. You know, we've seen studies and research on that.

So I've always, you know, I've always seen, you know, had different schools of thought about certain demographics or people from certain areas or neighborhoods. You know, why are these, you know, you see more filings from certain areas versus, I mean, just for example, in Long Beach, I'm like, I rarely see cases out of Belmont Shore or Naples Island. I'm like, what's happening over here? Is that, do you think that's simply because the police presence is not there?

I don't think perhaps those eight neighborhoods are nearly as over-policed as other neighborhoods in Long Beach. And you see over-policing. I mean, I've never gotten a case from someone riding in Belmont Shore being stopped on a bike for not having been a live flight on that night.

Or a public drinking. Yes. So i guess is just getting getting what am i saying so just having like a higher presence of police is just going to make a higher presence of you chance of you getting arrested possibly potentially i mean i think there also be has to be a public awareness of you know you know what you're doing in public where you are and just being aware of your surroundings but always remember you have a constitutional right to a lawyer you have a constitutional right to remain

silent. There you go. All right. Do you have anything else? Any other, any other legal thoughts, y'all? Any other questions? Do you have any? Yeah. One thing I will share on your questionnaire, you said, you know, how can people, you know, I guess do their part or give back something, something to that effect. One thing I always share with people is when you get that jury summons, you know, don't throw it away.

When you get that jury summons, you know, fill it out, take your time to go to jury duty i can't tell you how important it is to have good jurors for to have allow clients to have jurors that are peers of their community um because it you know people that are willing to go listen you know be attentive and you know sit there and you know listen to the facts because treat it like you know and i always tell jurors you know the presumption of innocence applies to everyone and,

But the only way someone can get a fair trial is to make sure that they have a jury of their peers. And by peers, do you mean like directly in your age group or like your what does peers mean in this context? People that look like you and I, you know, people that look like our clients. You know, we want a, you know, a diverse jury pool of our peers, you know, people from all different walks of life, you know, all different backgrounds.

I can't tell you how important it is, you know, jury services. And when you go, I mean, you know, it's important to have jurors that want to be there. Because I can't tell you how many times I've had a client where I'm like, this case means everything for them. You know, a conviction and, you know, maybe could result in them losing their job, you know, losing their freedom, their liberty. And sometimes I've had jurors that are just like, yeah, I don't care to be here.

With that $15 a day, I mean. But isn't that about the money? It's about your service. I mean, that's another, you know. I would say that's a big incentive that people don't be answering those jury calls. Because I'm not going to lose a day of work for 15 fucking bucks to save some jackass. I don't know. This is where I think also fault on our government for not paying jurors. You know, for jury service every day that they're there. And especially a living wage for jury service.

That's a shame on our government. I mean, it is true. because when people cannot afford to miss work because they're going to pay, they can't pay their bills, they can't put food on the table. The cost of living is already high. Yeah, that's a fault for our government, you know, because you can't have, you know, say, hey, we need good jurors out there, please come and not pay them anything. Exactly, that's true. When people can barely make ends meet.

You can barely get a good meal at In-N-Out for $15. Yeah. Maybe we have to put that on the ballot, right? But everyone go to jury service, fill out those jury summons, you know, treat it like it's your relative. that, you know, is there. You know, that's how serious it is for a lot of these people. And, you know, they have dignity, they deserve respect. And, you know, the way we show them that is through jury service.

Nice. Interesting. Any other legal recommendations for these people who are immigrants and scared out of their minds?

You know, you know, it's such a loaded question. You know, just... Be diligent. Yeah, be diligent, be safe, as, you know, that's such a relative term. You know be aware of your surroundings you know if you're able if you have it's such a privilege to say stay home you know if you have to work and put food on the table but you know know your rights you know know you you know you don't have to talk to any officials you can remain you can request an attorney and yeah.

There you go, guys. Well, thank you so much for coming. It was very insightful. No, thank you for having me. What a pleasure. What an honor. So thank you, guys. Thank you for answering all our little dumb questions. Well, not ours. My dumb questions. As you can see, the public is very uninformed. Well, thank you for having me. What a pleasure. Thank you, guys. Well, thank you. Well, everybody, I think that was a good one.

I'd like to thank our very special guest, Public Defender. Do you want to say your name? Yeah, for Chris Borzen. Our very special guest, public defender Chris Borzen. Thank you very much for joining us. I'd like to thank myself, Nino, Dr. Mikey, and Christoph from all of us here at the Queer LBC. You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, people like you. Good night. Good night. Good night, Long Beach. Woo! Music.