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Good morning and slay, slay bitch, slay all day, because you're listening to the Queer LBC Podcast. Podcast i'm nino local construction daddy and podcast fatty my pronouns are he him thank you for asking i have with me here my fabulous cohorts yo what's up this is christoph here your city top liaison my pronouns are he him and that motherfucker dr mikey here your professional cheese muscle tummy all your secrets my pronouns are he she all of them so what do you got for us today, girl?

Oh, you know, just some. Quick tea and queer events. Quick tea and queer events. Quick tea and queer events. Quick tea and queer events. Queer, queer, queer. Take a sip. Take a sip. You big stupid bitch. Alright. So this is the quick tea and the queer events.

This is where we get into the L, G, B, and the T of it all. Sometimes we get a little Q, too. You know what I mean?

I know what you mean, girl. so what did the queens talk about today this week today this week. Today in gay, Club Q Shooter, who killed five, charged with federal hate crimes. Today in trans, gender-affirming care improves transgender lives, according to the largest survey of trans people. Also in trans, transgender activists staged die-in at Florida driver's license offices across the state. Today in homophobia, video show St.

Louis police handcuffing gay bar owner. Also in homophobia, Glendale, city's queer Armenian community targeted by extremists. Police, fire, and the liquor board raided two Seattle gay bars. Today in transphobia, trans people in Florida blocked from changing gender on driver's licenses. Also in transphobia, a new Georgia Women's Bill of Rights guts protections for trans women and eliminates gender identity.

And last but not least beyonce discuss do any of you queens know by any of these things 16 carriages.

I thought the two beyonce songs were good i was just complaining to my friend how much i hate country music and then i turned into that meme he's like oh right about country now you need a cowboy hat now that picture that she has with her little short bob and the cowboy hat is cute i'm like i want to be you bitch well she was hinting at did you see her at the grammys oh yeah when she hit but that outfit was suspect like she didn't look good like it wasn't it wasn't for her the white

thing was probably a last minute outfit these people did a die-in that was fun these transgender activists yeah so oops. Oh, you want to read the article? You can if you want to. Okay. You can pull it up. Sorry. Not prepared. Yeah. So in Florida, trans activists did a die-in. So all the offices or some offices in Florida where you go and get your driver's license, trans activists went, wrapped themselves in trans flags or emergency safety vests.

And they went and they just did this die-in.

People just laid on the floor and they're protesting the new band or the new law on florida that criminalizes uh changing your gender under driver's license whack ass bitches but yeah that's cool i was i was excited to see that these people were you know doing like some real what do you call that disruption there you go because i think that's like obviously us going and trying trying to advocate for ourselves in the laws or whether our representatives are not working so i

think protests really need to start disrupting in order to get people's attention yeah right i like that because i always hear like whenever you see like people protesting and like like shutting down the freeways like i don't know why but all my coworkers always get really angry at that and i'm like you're so stupid like we're fucking doing something exactly i saw that.

When the protests shut down the freeways for palestine and like people were commenting and they're being like this is a great way to not get people on your side and i'm just like y'all don't understand the point of this right because if you ain't gonna cause no shit then what's gonna make you come out and in support you're not talking about it now because if you was talking about it then we wouldn't be here yeah and it's like we're not gonna get you on your your side by being nice nice to you

bitch right when has that worked ever go fuck yeah but I think it's great they did this and I think, people should definitely plan more like protests this this style yeah these like out loud kind of like.

Meaningful things like a dying that's cool yeah because and the the reality is is like if you're not going to allow trans people to change the gender on their licenses then you put them in danger because there's going to be like people who get gender affirming care you know when they transition you know their their appearance their expression is not going to match the the gender on their id and that's dangerous and you're putting them at risk yeah exactly Exactly.

So it was a it's a great way to send a message.

See, so, yeah, because that's why they did that. Diane, Diane, because Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles announced a change in a memo late last week since a county tax collectors where state residents can get licenses, Permitting an individual to alter his or her license to reflect an eternal sense of gender role or identity, which is neither immutable nor objectively verifiable, undermines the purpose of an identification record and can frustrate the state's

ability to enforce its laws. That's what Robert Kinoch stated, the department's deputy executive director in the memo.

The memo further says that someone misrepresenting their gender meaning not using their sex assigned at birth constitutes criminal and civil fraud sir if you don't shut the fuck about how how criminal how talking about new bathroom law that you're gonna go to jail oh yeah and that and that's basically why they're doing that because now they're saying that like basically we won't be able now this will allow them to force enforce those laws and to affect and have police

officers and people who are going to I guess manage these ridiculous. They said fucking something go fucking pee on the corner or some shit, They said, who the fuck said that? I just read it. They were saying that if you're confused about which bathroom to go into, you can go pee on the street corner. And then so you can arrest us for a loo. Right, exactly. Damn. Come on, man. Like, that's fucking stupid, yo.

So, expended the department's authority to issue replacement licenses depending on one's eternal sense of gender or sex identification is violated of the law and does not serve to enhance the security and reliability of florida issued licenses and identification cards i was like but y'all got so much else shit to worry about in florida then, this like right yeah don't you worry about your fucking flooding ass fucking, trees swamp lands yeah but like the the florida highway safety and

motor vehicles deputy executive director he said this he said the term gender does not refer to a person's internal sense of his or her gender role or identification but historically and commonly be understood as a synonym for sex which is determined by innate and immutable biological and genetic characteristics girl bye so they're he gets a defined gender like girl what are you talking about yeah if you want to take it all the way back to when god made adam Adam and Eve.

Do you think sex was on their mind when they were given their, their. Body part they're right you know like that's not that that's dude like they don't even make no sense yeah but even even what they're saying too they're trying to like people always use this oh sex and and they relate it to your. Your chromosomes but like what.

They don't people understand is like okay x x x y but like even that is on a spectrum there are people who aren't x x x or x y they're x x y or you know different variations so like even your understanding of that is false yeah because then it's kind of like well then what if gender doesn't mean gender anymore it's like well what is the thing that gender used to mean what is what is that should be called i don't know like it's still a thing even if it's not gender right like i still have

have a gender regardless of if it's meaning my sex or my gender see this doesn't make sense like fucking words yeah right exactly because even if he's saying like gender only means sex only refers to your chromosomes it's like well i still have the thing that's like i'm still acting femme over here so what does that mean like so that means i inalienably by god's law i'm still acting mask right now even though i'm femme by his rules because gender can't be swapped i guess

yeah so no matter how gay i act i'm still masculine and manly yeah i mean that's true regardless maybe he's being progressive yeah no but but i think yeah i don't know like i just just to understand how this person gets to make that call. And like, it's also based on not science. Like you're not acknowledging intersex people. Thank you. Also true. I think it's kind of like, we should always.

Kind of fucking remind them that intersex people exist because it's like they don't know they don't think they exist and i tell my fucking co-workers this all the time i'm like whenever we talk about the trans argument i'm like i always just bring up intersex people i'm like you know intersex people exist right yeah and so what is their gender yeah i was like so what do they have to pick if they have both you're gonna tell me i'm like that's what the doctor does i guess is tell you which one you

have to pick the fuck people are i yeah people are either, don't have minds is what it is that's also true but do y'all remember back in what was that we were talking about when that police car in st louis oh when they ran into the bar and then the owners was upstairs came out and they end up arresting the owners yeah so now recently.

A video has surfaced that not only shows the moments after the st louis police officer or crashes his SUV into a gay bar, but also appears to contradict the officers who handcuffed one of the bar co-owners because he was causing a disturbance. So the new footage taken by a bystander shows the events leading up to the co-owners, James Pence and, let's see, that last name, being handcuffed by Officer Ramel Wallace, who responded to the scene.

Chad Morris, the other bar co-owner, and pence's husband was arrested later by wallace who also is accused of beating morris while he was in custody so a dash camera was not installed in the vehicle that crashed and it's unclear how many if any of the officers on scene had working body cameras recording the incident said the attorney but in the two minutes so they they basically show it and whatnot but after you they basically states this that like remember when

it first came out they was like oh like they was causing the seeing this and the other. So this video actually breaks down. What contradicts the police officer's comments and police report, official police report. So the St. Louis police changed the story three times about why the officers crashed his SUV into the building. The officers claimed that they swerved to avoid a dog. Right. Remember that. But later said that they avoided hitting a parked car.

The department said the driving officer was adjusting the radio in the vehicle. So there was already three lies or three statements that wasn't.

You're the fucking cops you already know how to not lie and you're fucking so stupid but however the video shows that the car not only ran a red light but also traveled at a high rate of speed before swerving and crashing into the building so you ain't no fucking dog for one ain't no part of the car that you was trying to avoid you ran a red light and you was going fucking at a high rate of speed so Wallace the responding officer did not

ask the officer who crashed the police vehicle to take a breathalyzer test said enough probability calls existed to warrant that so when the police officers showed up on scene he immediately just you know you know the the code of brother's law and police work i'm assuming go and talk to them handle go get them but morris who was inside the bar at the time of the crash also was asked by wallace to show his id that felony count so wait a short time later morris

was arrested and charged with felony assault on wallace and misdemeanor resist resisting arrest that felony count was reduced to a misdemeanor morris had a black eye and bruises when he was released from jail he accused wallace of beating him while in custody wallace has been accused of assaulting and injuring another citizen in 2019 incident so these actions have compounded an already strained relationship.

Between the st louis police department and the lgbtq community so that alone should i if if i was those bar owners i would sue the shit out of that police department and then also be like y'all didn't breathalyze that dude you know i'm saying like what what makes you think if he i'm quite sure he wasn't on the chase because if he was on a chase it would have been more cars on the chase right you know what i mean. When this fucking story first dropped, I immediately knew it was bullshit.

And then I, fuck it, I'll be a conspiracy theorist. This is fucking related to all the other fucking bar raids. Hello, like, this happened. But he not only raided that motherfucker, he ran into it. Exactly. So it makes me think that the fucking, there's something going on, that the fucking cops are all like, we need to fucking get into these gay bars for fucking some fucking reason. Leave us alone. We're just having fun drinking. But does it not seem connected to you? Right.

Oh, yeah. Of course. All of it is freaking connected. Like, what the fuck? Okay, doctor, go into your raid story. Oh, yeah. So we have friends who live in Denver and they're DJs, the gay bars. And around the same time the raids happened in Seattle, or actually maybe a few days before the Seattle ones broke, they posted on Facebook and Instagram that the bar they were DJing at got raided by the police. And the police were focusing on, like, lewd conduct.

Conduct because apparently it's like against the law to like serve alcohol shirtless or and have people shirtless what something like that huh yeah maybe in denver i guess yeah so, that was the the reason why they decided to like raid it.

Because it was like an underwear night or something just looking to bust gays yeah like sounds like old times so was that the same reason that happened in seattle well let's let's find out because i don't know tune in live breaking but but okay this while you do that like come on like a cab like you are giving so much power to police and this is what what they're doing with it and even if these this these bar owners decide to sue the police that money they get is not coming out of the

police funding it's coming out of funding for the city exactly that discretionary fund so you they're not learning anything yeah they're not losing yeah this is article from the stranger.com from vivian mccall police fire and the liquor. The Joint Enforcement Team, which is a coalition of Seattle Police, Fire, and the State Liquor and Cannabis Board, and others, entered the Cuff Complex and started looking around. LCB officials entered the Seattle Eagle and did the same thing.

And what did they find? a bartender's exposed nipple and a few people wearing jockstraps. Offenses that law enforcement can cite you for in Washington if you're also selling alcohol. See, same reason. So fucking stupid. Like, bitch, we've been in here naked. Right. Yeah. But we're not even naked. See, but here's the problem that I have with that. Because there's a lot of laws and things that you can be going to enforce.

You know what I'm saying? so it's like why choose this why is this on the forefront yeah why are you, why are you wasting your time right yeah why are you wasting this money like he's shirtless and that's you're gonna like guys can walk out in public with their shirts off like but now that you're in a i mean i shut the fuck up it's ridiculous yeah but i think i think like even how this article started like police have never been friends of to the queer community or

to any community to be honest because they're just upholding the system and the structure like this is very pre stonewall like i don't know where's the mafia to protect us this time but like this is i don't know i don't like this this is kind of scary to like if this This keeps happening.

Like three different bars. Like what the fuck? It says, so at 10.30 on Saturday morning, 10.30 at night, basically, 10 member JET crew filled into cuff, according to the owner, Joey Burgess. They came in with flashlights, scaring some patrons who left in a hurry. Inside, they saw the offending nipple, a violation of state law. The JET may penalize in some way. Saturday night, two LCB officials entered the Eagle at 11.30 p.m. And inspected the premises.

Owner Keith Christensen said he's waiting on a call from them about the jockstraps and a potential citation. According to a JET agenda, officials hit neighbors on Friday and observed a lewd conduct violation. They hit the lumberyard on Saturday and registered no violations.

Of the 15 places enforcement inspected over the weekend four were gay clubs two were hookah lounges and one was a college bar one was a hot dog stand one was a music venue and one was a dive bar another was a bowling alley another was a bar and grill one was a roller rink another was some weird lounge that has no internet presence what the fuck what they said what is this article so washington was just on their bullshit so they're hitting all these different bars i guess so let's see

i don't know that's still sus it's suspect as fuck i don't like it created a jet to address nuanced businesses and criminal activity in seattle but neither cuff nor the eagle had ever been cited for alcohol or violence related offensives in this case clothing was the sole issue an open letter both owners signed for call signed calls for a thorough investigation into why the JET inspected two gay bars in as many nights.

Both bars have been cited for similar reasons before. Christensen said that LBC chased out 70% of his business over citations in February 2008. Burgess has dealt with this problem since pride of 2022 when the LBC when the CLB the CLB cited Cuff for a customer wearing a jockstrap. How do you cite the bar for what the customer is wearing? Right. Because they have the right to refuse anybody. And if I ain't gonna refuse them, then I ain't gonna fucking refuse them. Yeah. The fuck?

That don't make no sense. since then cuff stayed staff have hall monitored fashion choices banning jockstraps and asking patrons to pull up their pants to hide exposed cracks. He said he's seen a decline in business because people assume cuff wants to regulate their bodies despite signage he's put up explaining the pressure they're facing from the state it's difficult conversation to have in late in the night at night it's difficult conversation to have late night at a bar.

Let's see. On Tuesday, a spokesperson released a statement saying the agency wanted to acknowledge the alarm and concern its enforcement actions caused, but also to assure the LGBT community that it does not target their spaces. The spokesperson added that the agency contacted letter signatories to clarify its actions and intent. There is no emphasis on on patrolling activity at LGBTQ plus establishments or any crackdown on lewd conduct violations. Okay.

Blatant lie. Read the statement. The actions of the weekend were a result of routine work by LCB and other agencies. It's not routine if it's not routine, bitch. I don't know what to tell you. At a Tuesday caucus, LCB board chair David Postman disagreed with the use of the term raid, But he could understand how J.E.T.'s entrance to Cuff looked, considering the history of law enforcement busts on queer bars and the LCB doling out citations at the Eagle years before.

He called the photographs taken as evidence as unfortunate. Of course it's unfortunate for you, you dumb bitch. Unfortunate that you look like a dumb jackass.

The seattle police department said someone filed a complaint about the station the situation with the office of police accountability so they can't comment while it's under under investigation, so somebody called on every single gay bar i was like anyways yeah i don't know, but i was like i'm quite sure they should be focusing on a whole lot of other shit, I'm quite sure they probably a lot of underage drinking and selling of liquor to minors in Seattle deal with your fucking heroin situation.

Goddamn anyways sorry gays we're under attack always will be unfortunately i mean i guess as long as you don't have your your titties out you should be fine yeah so just let's in keep your butts in and your titties in but i mean that's the whole thing is like i know like as customers of gay bars the only people that i ever see naked are the entertainment folks that have been like like yeah so it's like what the fuck yeah i mean that's true i mean i've been to bars like if somebody is

naked like most management and stuff is like ah you look because you can they could fuck up your liquor license exactly i've been kicked out of a club for sucking someone's dick.

They take care of it like what the fuck yeah yeah but i think it's just interesting that this is a law at all right and it obviously it's connected to kind of stonewall days so pre-stonewall they would get you for same-sex like there was a law against like being with other men right you know so once they couldn't do that anymore how are they controlling the gay community this way and they know it's part of the culture so they're going to still find a way to try to regulate us and then it's kind

of like like the one guy said that his business had gone down it's like well that's another tactic yeah so you're just putting us out of business exactly because Because motherfuckers are like, I don't feel safe. Why am I not going to go there if I can get arrested or raided? Exactly. These are safe places. Right. So we got the straights and the Abbey taking over. They can have it. Take Abbey. I'm good. And then we got these other fucking bars getting raided. Right.

The straights are just getting out of pocket. Getting out of hand.

Did y'all hear about the club Q shooter? Yes. And he got charged with five federal hate crimes. Stupid bitch. So I think they want to give them, well, them, because they're non-binary. But there's concern around that because people are saying that they didn't identify as non-binary before the shooting, but now they are after the shooting. So I don't know. But their pronouns are they, them. And they're going to give him multiple life sentences.

Let's see so we got he pled guilty to 50 hate crime counts and 24 firearm violations. You get multiple life sentences in addition to a 190-year sentence under the proposed agreement. I'm like, that's not fair. What? Him getting to live. I mean... But I mean, a murder-suicide wouldn't have suited it either. Right. Unfortunately. Yeah, so that happened too.

Aldrich was sentenced to life in prison in June after pleading guilty to state counts of murder and 46 counts of attempted murder, one for each person at Club Q during the attack on November 19th, 2022. The victims killed in the Club Q attack were Raymond Green Vance, 22, Daniel Daniel Aston, 28, Ashley Pegg, 35, Derek Rump, 38, and Kelly Loving, 40. Aldrich was moved to the Wyoming State Penitentiary last year due to concerns about their safety in Colorado's prison system. Who's concerned?

Who is so concerned with your safety? They are. I probably requested a change. Aldridge identifies as non-binary, but prosecutors have expressed skepticism about that. El Paso County District Attorney Michael Allen, District Attorney, said he believed Aldridge claimed the identity to avoid being charged with hate crimes under the Colorado law. Aldridge didn't identify as non-binary before the club shooting, Allen said.

I mean you're still not gay and you killed a bunch of gay people doesn't mean you're not a homophobe right yeah i don't think i think even if you identify in the community that's just still a hate crime right like i think it's what your intent under it and and they were probably fueled by all the transphobia and homophobia out there i mean fucking caitlin jenner still transphobic as fuck we can all agree on that right yes so i'm sure we could charge caitlin jenner with a crime.

Hey sigh, um oh did y'all see the latest survey that says gender affirming care improves transgender lives i didn't but i believe it right right it only makes sense so this the survey let's see where was it so 92 329 individuals were surveyed it's like the biggest, sample yeah it sounded like a huge number it's a huge sample of trans people the largest one they've gotten so it's like probably the most accurate so 94 of the respondents who lived,

94 respondents who lived at least some of the time in a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth reported that they were either a lot more satisfied at 79% or a little more satisfied at 15% with their life than before their transition. Nearly all of those who were undergoing hormone treatment or had received at least one gender-affirming surgery said this health care had improved their lives. Mm-hmm.

I believe it. Mm-hmm. I'm just tripping out right now on the words gender assigned at birth. Mm-hmm. We assign you. This is your mission. Whether you want to or not, you are man.

You are woman. Then I see the intersex lips and balls at the same time, and I say, that's where the the word assign really comes in where it's like now i'm assigning you this gender yeah i have decided right not me not my body so it's so it's like if you are intersex and it's saying that your sex defined at birth your gender is defined by your sex at birth if you are intersex then what does that mean for your gender then there has to be a

third gender well now there is but But back in the day, no. Like, it was common practice for doctors to just do a surgery and then, like, basically pick a site. Yeah.

That's so creepy. That's so, like, I don't know what. Yeah. So there's a lot of stories of, like, intersex people who that happened to and then they didn't, like, resonate with them. That wasn't how they identified. Right. That fucking sucks. Yeah. Yeah, but I think like Republicans need to listen to this report because like you're essentially like harming your constituents. You're killing your constituents and you're just blocking them from enjoying life. Yeah. Stupid poor bitch.

Morally bankrupt bastards.

But did y'all hear about Glendale? Glendale has a great queer Armenian community, but they are afraid for, you know, their lives. Because I know last year they had a lot of extremists come after them. But it says that their friends are bracing Glendale, the queer Armenian community in Glendale and their friends are bracing for another onslaught of anti-LGBTQ plus smear tactics and misinformation campaigns ahead of the Glendale school board election and the March 5, the March failed primary.

Glendale community members, including teachers, student parents and elected officials, held a rally on the steps of Glendale City Hall Thursday to confront the rise in extremists and hate groups in the city. I didn't really well I guess Glendale is kind of conservative yeah but also kind of like yeah. What I don't want to say like almost like it can give a vibe of like, In certain areas, like redneck-ish vibes. In Glendale? Yeah. Oh. In certain areas, in certain pockets.

Yeah. And they were spending enough time in Glendale. So violence erupted in June outside last year of the school board. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. So many agitators wore matching white t-shirts with the slogan, leave our kids alone and trucks with giant leave our kid alone banners, circle the neighborhood. A few days before talking to the Glendale School District, many of the same extremists was in North Hollywood at an elementary school during both protests.

Eric Edman, executive director of GALIS, the LGBTQ plus Armenian society. Told The Guardian that white ring activists who had been prominent at previous pro-Trump and anti-vaccine rallies across the region, people with documented connections to the Proud Boys and January 6th were in attendance.

So it's like glendale community members including teachers students parents and elected officials are like look can we get some support can we get some we're with our safety is at risk so organizers warn the hate groups and their candidates what to erase any mention of lgbtq plus and gender identity from books oh and materials in glendale schools and force the the lgbtq plus back into the closet so jordan henry and anita caprican sorry if i butchered that two

ultra-right conservatives and darlings of extremist activists are candidates for open seats on the glendale school board so this is why it's important to vote and then also but like.

If they are a part of this and then they're trying to get on the board do you just know how much fear and like things that these the community is going to feel in these schools and glendale dang vote local y'all that's also right it matters it matters damn glendale get your shit together you're in california right the fuck right like you right outside of like yeah I mean we're not that fucking fucking blue there's a lot of fucking dumb fucking bitches out there,

but yeah anyone Glendale go vote go vote go vote blue or something I don't know vote first someone, any other quick tease nah oh girl I don't think so So I think we then drank all of it. Bodies on bodies on bodies on bodies. All right. Is it time for a break? Break time. We shall be right back. Hey, y'all. Christoph here. And we at the Queer LBC just want to say thank you again for all your love and support. But we also wanted to let you know that you can hit that like button, boo.

But we really really really do appreciate a five-star review on apple and spotify podcast or wherever you listen to the podcast at you can also follow us on instagram at queer lbc to get updates on the shows and more also shit tell a friend about us get the word out you know we your favorite lgbtq plus podcast in lbc baby.

Oh yeah one last thing if any of you listeners have a topic or idea you want to hear us talk about or have questions for moi dr mikey feel free to slide into our dms on instagram at queer lbc or email us at queer lbc at gmail.com we want to hear from you speak up y'all, and we're back so today i wanted to introduce to you our very special guest today we have in the studio with us rami well identify yourself queen please tell us about yourself my name is rami i am a southern california

native and i currently teach at cal state long beach in the theater arts arts department i teach classes around theater and social justice very cool very cool lbc nato lbc native that's me thank you for bringing me back to my birthplace of course of course so excited to have someone like you with us today thank you very much i feel like we never get to hear from the queer muslim perspective so can you just tell us everything but really how do you How do you?

How do I be myself? How do you be yourself? Well, I guess it's an ever... Changing process. It's never unfolding process, I guess is what I want to say. Now that I'm in my 40s, I would say I'm a much more realized version of myself, more whole than ever, less fragmented. I think it's taken my entire adult life to feel I feel reconciled in who I am. My spirituality, like my identity as a Muslim, my belief in God, my faith in God is very important to me.

I do think that for there were several years, like in my 20s, for example, in which I ran away from that. And I ignored my faith or pretended it didn't exist or kind of like forgot about my faith conveniently sort of as a way of protecting myself or- I put it on the back burner. Put it on the back burner. Like, you know, this seems to be like a heavy load to carry. So let's just like not have to deal with it for a while.

And I think that served me at the time. but I will say I think at around 30 or just as I was getting older I started to feel spiritually depleted because I grew up Muslim and I grew up having a connection to like my creator you know even from a young child that was like a lifeline I guess for me a spiritually a spiritual lifeline So I think for, I like missed it. I missed having something I can, that can anchor me.

So I spent, I would say like the next decade of my life, say like my entire thirties, you know, trying to come back to God. God I just I will say that I it's it wasn't until I got to meet other queer Muslims who were also practicing that I even realized it was possible so I went on a queer Muslim retreat in like. 2014 I guess about 10 years ago and I had met so many other queer Muslims and up until then I I really didn't know any.

And so I think that felt like I had permission to practice in community. And I, cause it's very important to be in community as well. Yeah. As a Muslim.

One second. Rewind. Where did you find this group? This was out of, uh, east coast there's a there's an organization called the muslim alliance of sexual and gender diversity masgd and they put on a retreat a spiritually spiritual retreat every year and then it became every other year and i actually don't know if it's even happening anymore i think the pandemic probably interrupted a lot of that but it was something that they were doing yearly at some like retreat center on the East Coast.

And I had heard about it and people were telling me to like, oh, you should try this. You should check it out. And I was nervous. I think a lot of people get nervous when you think you're sort of alone and you're used to kind of holding onto these identities by yourself. I think it can be a little nerve wracking to meet other people. But I did. And like, I think there were over a hundred people there.

Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, and like, it's crazy even to say, oh, wow, to think that, oh, my gosh, there are 100. Right. Okay, right. Probably thousands. It's probably thousands, but you guys had the courage to make that step. Yeah, to just like be at some sort of retreat together and different like sessions as with any retreat. Like the program is full of different things to talk about or different practices, different rituals. and people sort of, you know.

Go where they fit in one of i think the like i think one of the kind of like principles that underscored that retreat was like a quote from you arumi which is like come come whoever you are even if you have refused to come a thousand times you know come oh so it's like it's a way of saying like if you have any relation to islam or any any part of you like feels called to explore your faith as a Muslim, you know, come to this retreat.

I think the goal is to, for people to achieve reconciliation, you know, because faith and God and creator, if those are things you subscribe to, it's so much greater than like this physical world. And so like your sexuality or like Like, your body, it's so much smaller than God. So, I think that's what helps people kind of, like, reconcile. Like, if they start to see that they were created as intended, as, like, God gave us this experience for a reason.

And it's a beautiful experience, actually, if you lean into it. That there should actually be no fragment between your spirituality and yourself, if anything. That should be probably the clearest thing. You know, and anything, any struggles in this world are meant for you to work through. You know, I don't know if I'm making sense. No. I'm here. Basically, like, there's more to it than just our little squabbles we have here.

Yeah. Yeah. And our ability to like, like, like homosexuality, if you talk about it like that, it's such a. It's really, it's minuscule. Yeah, it's like such a small thing of our identities, of our experience, of who we are, that to think that that little part of ourselves could be some reason to not be with God or to not, you know, see the miracles all around you or see how you've been blessed.

I think to sort of use that as a reason to not it's it's not really taking in the full like majesty or power or generosity or compassion or mercy that is god actually.

Which is all of those i don't know if if the three of you are spiritual or people of faith i'm spiritual i i'm spiritual like i told them in the past like i do believe of higher beings like i believe we are put on this place for a particular reason now i don't practice per se but i also believe i'm a believer and one thing i have always told them like i i show knowledge to all the gods so i i want the universe and the gods to watch over me and guide me so yes to answer

your question i don't know about these heathens yeah i don't follow any organized religion i think just through my experiences with christianity just really left a bad taste in my mouth for organized religion in terms of like what i believe in and definitely believe in like a higher power but i wouldn't say it's like.

God like you know other like religions may say like i don't know i just believe in like this universal like connection and energy it's very like woo-woo type of perspective that i have woo-woo yeah i feel like i'm kind of the same like i was brought up in christianity but.

Essentially like i pushed away from it or i pushed it pushed me away from it and then i pushed away from it and then now i'm like anti but as far as but i always say this it's like do i believe in god maybe probably but is jesus christ my lord and savior no probably not and i always say that because it's such a christian nation that we live in that i have to kind of state that to people because it's like they want to start the conversation as if you believe in the christian god already and it's

kind of like sis i have to tell you how it is now and i don't want to be the rude one but no i mean as far as every other religion goes it's like i'm cool with it and whatever but yeah and that's another thing i wanted to talk to you about was that when you grew up in the religion where people in the religion did you get any negative like at like like anti-gay shit? Well, I wasn't out when I grew up. But did you still like receive those messages in the community for sure?

Like what was that experience for you? I mean, I think it's not unlike, you know, people who grew up in Christianity. It's pretty much a lot of the same messaging, which is like hate the sin, not the sinner.

And, you know, like these are, these feelings might be natural, but you can't really pursue like there should be no action there's no it's the behavior that's sinful it's you may have an attraction for someone who is of the same sex but you're not supposed to like pursue that you know those are some of the teachings recognizing that.

Sexuality is a thing and that desire is a thing and you know really trying to repress it push it down you know i actually used to tell my friends that i could get away with being in the closet because my communities my muslim communities and family was so conservative that even if i was straight there's no way i could have had a girlfriend you know so like there wasn't really that even yeah like there's no no muslim that i grew up with had boyfriends and girlfriends you know like they're

really that's was pretty much pushed aside you know in some really conservative communities you know genders are separated right you know like men and women are not often in the in the same room. So I think it's really easy to fly under the radar as queer in those spaces. But at the same time, you're definitely not encouraged to be queer, it's definitely not. Oh yeah. They'd be repressing them straights too, I see.

So for you, how was that process of reconnecting with your spirituality, with your religion again.

Well knowing and growing up with kind of like the anti-gay rhetoric because like that pushed me and nino away from religion but like it how did you navigate that well i think i mean if i could say like i relate to what you are saying and i've had that experience as well where right after i came out and i came out pretty publicly i mean this is a story that i have told a million times again well i mean on other podcasts too but like i came out in the la times oh

and that's how like my family read about it on that oh see that's how my community in general all the muslims i knew that they read it in the los angeles times that's because i was appearing in a play in which there was a gay muslim character and i was playing the character so i outed myself to the interviewer but but it's out there. I mean, 2005, it was actually like 19, almost 19 years ago. So, and I was in my 20s at the time.

So I got such a backlash and that is what contributed to me, like putting the faith away, not wanting to practice for years. Feeling like God doesn't care about me. Like if God is teach, if the teachings of God are telling you that I don't, that I'm not okay, then I don't want to have to, I don't want any relationship with this God. I mean, sort of like kind of what I'm hearing the two of you say, which is that the people, the anti-gay rhetoric, they sort of turned me off to the religion.

But like I said at the beginning of this, after a few years, by the end of my twenties, maybe five or six years after this coming out happened, I felt so spiritually depleted, and I actually felt like the Muslims stole my faith from me, you know? And it really isn't—when you think about. Maybe Christianity is a little specific when it's about Jesus. And forgive me, I sound like an ignorant person. I'm not a Christian.

But it's like, in Islam, really all that matters is your connection to your creator. Like, you're encouraged to pray five times a day when you fast for Ramadan. It really is all about establishing a close connection to your creator. That has nothing to do with your sexuality.

It really has nothing to do with that. It really is about being able to show gratitude and reverence and submission to what has given you life and what has made you safe and what has given you all the blessings that you have received. You know, the ability to like have friends or have your parents or whatever, the ability to eat and clothe yourself, all of these are considered blessings from like God, and none of that has anything to do with your sexuality.

So, for people to use your sexuality as a reason for God to have an issue with you, that actually doesn't really compute because, like, I have a relationship with God, you know, that has nothing to do with my sexuality. Like, I don't know why people push that so much. I think as soon as you start to realize that faith is different than religion and that your faith is not... Is not dictated by other people and what they say. Like, the people kind of ruin the religion.

But faith in God, that's your own thing. So, I'm actually very pro not being part of an organized religion. I do encourage people to tap into their own spirituality and what their connection is to source, whether it's connect, you called it connection, higher power, energy.

Energy there are so many different words yeah that are all maybe referring to the same thing yeah you mentioned earlier and i wanted to just ask you this it may sound weird but it's so you say that you felt spiritually depleted how did that make like were you did it lead into like like depression like did it make you feel like you was just missing something or like that if, Because I asked this because I felt like before I came out, I wasn't also like

into the religion or the faith that I was raised in. But I also felt myself being different in the sense of like I was being more angry. I was just like being an asshole for no reason. And it wasn't like me because also with like with that faith being said, I wasn't supposed to act that way. Yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? So like, how did that look for you when you were in that stage? I think also like I was angry. I think I was getting into like really toxic relationships. I...

Was looking for other outlets, whether it was like drugs or hookup sex. I just found myself being really agitated and seeking some sort of relief, some sort of comfort. And at least to me, I think I was wired that that relief and comfort came from my faith.

And without the faith there anymore i had no idea where to turn you know and i think i would like get myself into relationships or like you know i moved in i had someone move into my place you know just within a few weeks of knowing them and i think that that was like for in hindsight i feel like that was like me wanting comfort in my space you know because i didn't feel comfortable at home and so i wanted I wanted someone to like move in and,

but like that was the wrong person, you know, you don't buy like, and so it was around, it was like after that experience that I started to realize that something was missing and that it was that faith, that the part of me that used to be Muslim, you know. Okay, that's nice. I feel I resonate with that. So, you know. And I also wanted to just touch on one quick thing too, because I know, so when you came out, it was in 2005, when you was in LA Times.

And so then nine years later, that's when you went on that retreat for with the 100 queer Muslims for that.

Do you keep in contact with any of those individuals that you met during that retreat? I do, yeah, a few of them. I didn't connect too many of them, to be honest. Because it was kind of like. A hundred people is A a lot. Right. And I think I walked away with maybe three or four connections. And I am in general touch with them. None of them live in California. Oh, okay. So, like, we are in touch. We might, you know, if we're in each other's cities, we'll meet for like a meal

or something. Okay, nice. But I will say, like, it's interesting that you track it as nine years. I really do feel like now that I've been out for a good 19 years, I do feel like a decade I spent all by myself in that identity. And then the last decade I wasn't able to actually have queer Muslim community, which was unfathomable those first nine years. Yeah. You know, so like community helps, like maybe that contradicts what I just said

in the sense that people kind of ruin the religion. The religion. Right. But I do think that again, Again, you don't need other people to practice your faith, but I think other people can be a reminder. Just like I didn't know I could actually practice my faith until I met other queer Muslims. So it's like you almost need each other. Muslims need each other to remind each other of God's beauty and love. It's actually part of the faith, too, is to remind each other.

It's like one of our tasks is to remind each other of, you know, the blessings and keep each other humble and keep each other grateful. That's beautiful. So that community that you was a part of in regards when you went all that, have you found... Cause I'm, was those individuals from across America or like, was they just from the East coast or? Yeah, they were all over the place. Some were even from like other countries. Oh, okay.

But if your question is, have I found like community here in LA or California over the years, I have tried to create that community. Like I've hosted queer, like gatherings at my home and there used to be like a queer Muslim support group at the Gay and Lesbian Center that I used to co-facilitate. All of this stuff was like pre-pandemic. And I will also say like, it never really like took off. There was always so much drama for lack of a better word. Like, no, I mean, that is the best word.

And I think like, Like, it's actually a very sad, it's sort of evidence that our communities, our queer communities, queer Muslim communities, we've been so traumatized in our families and in our home countries, for those who are maybe not American. Not that this country is not traumatizing as well.

Well but i think people come into the space from a place of trauma and wanting answers like wanting people to heal their pain and i think it actually creates a lot of tension and a lot of policing each other and having a guard up and everything having their guard up it's like it's like a lack of love and more like anger like i felt like there's a lot of anger and fear in these spaces and not enough like love and support.

But I'll say that like I kind of pulled back and kind of got tired of trying to facilitate these spaces because I just felt. It wasn't working. And I just learned to invest in like sort of my more one-on-one queer Muslim friendships, which I have. But I wouldn't say that I'm in community, you know. Now, is there a community in LA of gay Muslims? I mean, if there, like, I would say it's like maybe a literary queer Muslim community or maybe there's like a party queer Muslim community.

I think they're sort of segmented based on interest. It's kind of hard because community is like an abstract thought. It's kind of like, well, what does it mean, period, right? Like gay people together, I guess. It's just kind of like, yeah, and if there's drama, I feel like I would be the same person who would go to one of these groups assuming it would heal me. Because I would go there being like, I'm the only one who knows my experience. Let me go and be with my people.

And then I would just want to trauma dump everything. thing and then that's definitely how those spaces work yeah it was a lot of trauma dumping and a lot of triggering each other and a lot of like being people having their guard up and then also people like projecting all their pain you know possible misloved connections.

I mean, talking about love connections, it's like, I've never, I don't know if never is the right word, but like, you never really see a queer Muslim with another queer Muslim, you know, it's like a queer Muslim is often dating like a white person or someone outside of the community, you know? And it's like, I think there is like too much internalized, um.

Phobia maybe you know it's internalized this islamophobia to like be in partnership with another another muslim would you ever feel have you ever felt that way like i would want to like maybe steer clear of another muslim guy because of xyz or i've never felt like oh i wouldn't want another muslim if anything i've often told myself how nice it would be to like because my faith is is so important to me. I will say, I don't wanna, these were queer Muslim community spaces,

but I would say not too many were practicing. Practicing, oh, okay. So like there weren't so many of them in which their faith or their connection to God was maybe a leading part of their identity. If anything, they were probably raised Muslim, maybe in another, in a Muslim country, and they're too angry and traumatized to wanna be a practicing Muslim, But it is still sort of part of their identity. So they would come to these spaces and not be practicing.

And I think that would bring in a sort of guarding, a level of being guarded as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is in a place of gratitude for the life that they live. Thankfully, my current partner is all that. And that's like, but it's the first person I dated who in like my entire adult life. You know, was someone who had like, Congratulations. The spiritual practice. So thank you. And that was like, became very clear from like day one that that was a connection.

Connection that you guys had together. You need someone who understands. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But you think that was important to them too, to find someone who was also practicing. I know that's right. Now here's a question. Have you found that the gay community is like not into Muslims or are they phobic? Are they?

Yes. yes yes very much and again when you like you said when you say community that's kind of an abstract term it really depends on spaces like you know back when i was like on hookup apps you would see a lot of islamophobia you know like uh people fetishizing you and you know can you like wear your headdress and what the fuck you know like or yeah like can do you mind wearing like like a traditional outfit during our hookup or something like that.

I mean, I got that a lot. How do you feel when, when people would say that? I mean, it's you're like, hell yeah. I guess it depends on how hot that. No, it's definitely is off putting or people who are like, Oh, where are you from? And I'd be like, Oh, my family's from Egypt. And it's like, Oh, oh, I could never visit there. That's too, they're too, they hate gays too much or they're too homophobic. And, you know, maybe there are countries like Egypt who definitely are not supportive of gays.

But I do think that there's something kind of close-minded about like, you know, refusing to even tell someone who's from their country. From their, right.

Yeah. I would never visit your country. Because first of all, I didn't even ask you to fucking, motherfuckers but also i think it's like gay travelers should feel like they could go everywhere in the world but you know like i think a lot of countries are not super yeah oh yeah that should not keep that should not keep queer people from staying what in the u.s or in western Western Europe to like make everything sort of Eurocentric and then turn your nose up to the

rest of the world where people of color are and to just sort of label them all as like homophobic, I think is xenophobic, is xenophobic on your own. So yeah, we got Florida fucking here, right?

America's homophobic as fuck. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you. about that, Anything from you, sir? I know your family from Egypt. Can you tell us a little bit about Egypt? I know you came from a trip recently, too. Yeah, I was in Egypt in December around Christmastime. It was the first time I was in Egypt in my adult life during Christmastime, and I was kind of taken aback by how Christmassy it was because it's like a 90% Muslim country.

There are Christians in Egypt, but it was definitely like overly commodified and christmas trees yeah totally like christmas trees and christmas lights and america just could taste shit on every time but when they do it over there dude it's not like it's not like a christian festival right it's just kind of like christian it's just like holiday decor it definitely just feels very culturally like a reach almost like like a way to appeal to tourists.

Oh, okay. For the people who were like, oh, let's go travel to Egypt for Christmas. Well, tourism definitely is down and Egypt does rely on tourism. So I did sort of see like a mass appeal to like the tourist and using Christmas like decor as a way of doing that. Which I thought was strange. I have not spent a lot of time in Egypt. I was born here in Long Beach.

My parents did immigrate from Egypt here to los angeles i've been i go maybe every five years last time was 2019 i don't feel i think whenever i go i'm like seeking some sort of profound spiritual connection to like my ancestors okay you know like i've actually never met any of my grandparents they all passed before I was born. So like, I don't have this connection to any generation above my parents.

And every time I go to Egypt, I'm trying to like connect to some memory that really doesn't exist. And I always am a little sort of disappointed or there's always a sense of melancholy of like, oh, I didn't find what I was looking for. Yeah. You know, and I think that happened again, this like past time, you know, seeking some sort of, yeah, wanting to know where I come from a little bit more. Right. Yeah. It's fun to romanticize. But it's, yeah, I guess like, if you want to have a vision.

Well, it's like, you know, you see other people who have grandmothers and what their connection to their grandmother has meant. And I've never had that. I've never met a grandma, so I think I'm seeking that grandmother energy. Yeah. And I don't have that. I never had it. Damn. Maybe you just need to meditate more. Yeah. That's true.

How do you like to how do you navigate through the gay scene as a muslim she's booed up now i mean okay before well you know before you was you know before you get caught.

It's kind of hard to even think about because i do think it was just like the hookup lifestyle like the gay scene is on the apps you know like i'm not really i was not the type that was going to bars like west hollywood or whatever oh you know i never really had like gay community around me you know like i've always all my best friends have always been like my straight female friends so i never had like a queer posse to go out with so i just don't think i was able to really

participate in a gay scene a possible like just not really feeling male maybe in that way you know like maybe like having a group of gay boys around me never felt it never naturally happened and i think it's because you know maybe like i don't necessarily see myself as like a gay male you You know, it's like, I'm currently like for a few years now, it's like really sort of expanding how I see myself gender wise, recognizing that I've always been more vibrationally connected to my female

friends than to like other male, male bodied people. And just recognizing that throughout my adult life, a gay male community has always sort of been elusive to me.

Okay. and so i just was not able to navigate i just don't think there was much to navigate yeah right you know and so like my outlet in terms of seeking connections with other men was yeah just through like hookup apps and oh okay yeah because i just feel like i don't know i almost feel like the whole idea of like a gay youth is like not even true like you know what i mean because like i I talk to like straight people and they're like – the way they talk to me is almost as if they think that I

grew up in a gay world full of gay people and I'm like – for the first time I'm interacting with straight people when I meet them. And it's like what the fuck?

Like do you really think that's how it works? So it's like – and then people talk about like the –. Lgbtq plus community and i think that just sets like a false idea that there's some kind of a community but it's like when they refer to the lgbtq plus community it just means like all the gay people that are over there wherever they are but there's no like real like, quilted fabric where we're all like friends in a in a city talking to each other like

farming mean you know what i mean like it's not like that it's it doesn't exist or does it exist i don't know it seems to exist amongst white gays maybe in west hollywood like west hollywood i guess or maybe like social media or just media kind of paints a different picture right but you're right in the sense that i've never actually seen it replicated in reality especially in like Like communities of color.

Because I feel like when we talk about like that idea, right, of community, then it's like when we really boil it down to it, it's like, well, what is it really? And then when I think of like, what do I mean by community? I guess the really only thing I can think of is like when I'm here with like my gays and like they're the friends that I actually know and talk to.

Right. And I feel like, yeah, like the only time I ever see a huge gaggle of gays is when it's like a huge group of like white guys in West Hollywood.

Would and i think they're i don't know why it's the only one that can maintain friend like a huge friend group maybe because it's all they're just fucking each other because it just seems like it's always just like that could be possibly true i don't know it's crazy that they even they seem to like genuinely like each other or do they not like i don't it's it's not clear what the quality of yeah it all seems like it's like a real housewife's

moment but with no cameras where where they all hate each other, but they're just like forced to be together. It's definitely, it's not a scene I've like ever really wanted to be a part of. I mean, that's also true.

Like, I don't think none of us really wants to be a part of that scene, but that's the only thing that we, as a gay, you feel like, oh, like I need to be a part of this because you know, like, ugh, I need my, I need, we say community, how many times we say community but like I need that like I need I need to be around people like minded do you find out that like wow like most of us are not like minded yeah we just like.

Dudes yeah like you know i'm saying like their common interest sexuality is like maybe not enough of a commonality yeah exactly right to connect because like i'm still not gonna fuck you but like i still want to be around people like you know like i want to be around the gays but like i think it's more of like i want to like make out in front of i want to make out with guys in a safe place where no one's going to judge right yeah you just need the safe space yeah to do to do me you know

or yeah but i think like i had my like we ho phase like i was out there like a lot and that's where i used to go and party but i never i always went with like a group of people yeah i i know we used to go and it was just like to drink and dance and i felt like i never.

Met anyone and built like a friendship from from our friends yeah like i i used to like chat and interact with people but like never went past that yeah like being in like the boys town feel like community in the sense of community i guess you two like were community for each other yes for each other yeah see i think that's probably what we look at we look at a community like more than one person all you need is one that's all you need yeah really just two or three makes right

yeah maybe we should title this episode community i'm definitely not talking to anybody I used to hang out with back in the day. The fact that you two used to go out or had a WeHo phase and you're still in each other's lives is kind of remarkable. I did have another group of LA gays who are now all disbanded. She disbanded the group. You're not in touch with any of them? I'm in touch with them through the phone or one of them through the phone.

But I think most... Through the phone, is that like a call or a text? More like a sending memes. Okay.

Being a theater artist or like sort of me being a professor oh nice yeah so that's something i mean that's also true right but how do you navigate in those spaces i love it i will say that i'm very grateful to be able to teach young younger people people who are like early on for the most part early on in their theater careers like people in their early 20s who are imagining having a professional theater future, I'm very grateful that I can be there to show them that they can create theater

that can, you know, change the world. Because I teach a class called Theater, Protest, and Social Change.

So, for me, it's really important that for those who are about to graduate, if they only really imagine themselves being an actor or a writer or a director, that, That they also realize that they have the power to create original pieces about social issues that are important and that maybe they might change people's minds or maybe they might raise awareness about a really important issue and actually encourage people to respond in a positive way.

I really like I feel like it's a privilege to be able to introduce that idea to these students you know because I think being an actor can be so powerless and to feel like that they can create. Their own work that represents who they are and what they care about, I think is an honor. It's a privilege. I think theater people do underestimate the power of theater, the power of the arts.

You know, arts really can change the world and can, you know, be an outlet for healing and it can like save lives. And I think people can be very intentional about that. So to me, I have been practicing theater or sort of in that capacity my entire adult life. I even said that I came out in the LA Times when I was, you know, like 20 years ago, and that's because I was part of a play in which there was a gay Muslim character on stage, and that was pretty radical at the time.

And so, like, even by creating the possibility.

Of a gay Muslim identity, a fictional one, on stage, age led to heightened level of awareness of queer muslim identity and i even came out and so i became sort of a real person attached to it and that inspired i know that it inspired younger people in my muslim community people who are like teens who saw that i came out and that and they were like questioning their sexuality at that time and that they sort of like felt less alone so nice things like theater the arts representation all that

matters all that really does matter you know and it really can make people feel seen and heard you know i'm sure all of us can talk about the first time we saw like a gay character in a tv show or a film and right or at least which Which, what has been a profound sort of like moment of representation, you know, I'm sure we can all talk about that and know that that, you know, has a profound effect on us. Yeah, for sure. Wow.

That's really awesome about what you... You're talking about the teaching the actors about the basically turning them into political actors but that's awesome and amazing and really interesting and cool and that's great and i'm glad that you're doing that and also that whole thing about representation is like amazing like, obviously i would want you to speak more on representation but like obviously like what you just said is amazing like how you're the character in the play

also helped inspire you you to come out yourself because obviously, and that's just, it's everything. That's everything like what you just said. Well, that's sort of, again, how I think the arts works and how, and again, maybe theater is my language, but I think you can make it film, dance, visual art.

I think all of that has the opportunity to inspire people, get people to connect emotionally to to something and, you know, feel, have a sort of deeper understanding about something, maybe themselves or maybe about the person next to them, or maybe about the person next door. And I think the arts in general makes us more human, you know, and more compassionate. And I, I have a master's in applied theater.

I got that 12 years ago now, 11 years ago now. And so I'm very committed to people using theater to change the world. Very far away from the for-profit, being on Broadway type of way of practicing theater. Sort of like theater in the streets, radical street performance. I mean, I feel like, is this a new concept? I almost feel like where you're talking about, it feels so new. I mean, theater has been practiced as a form of social change for years.

In this country, it goes back to maybe the 1960s, and even before that, after the Great Depression or during the Great Depression, there was something called the Federal Theater Project, which was something FDR, President FDR, introduced. Through something called the WPA, the Workers' Project Administration, going like 90 years ago.

But there was a federal theater project division of the Workers' Project Administration, which was like a government-funded arts, and people were writing plays about labor unions and poverty and plays that actually represented themselves. Those are some of, I would say, the origins of theater as a form of social justice. Very interesting. I didn't even know this was a thing.

Probably the last time the government really ever cared about the arts when they're using for propaganda yeah that's cool and for you like what what what has your journey with the arts been like like when you get into plays and doing theater i did my first play as a freshman in high school it was little shop of horror horrors and yeah it was really fun it was it sparked my love for musicals i'm definitely a musical theater queen even though i

don't like work on musicals there's not a lot of musicals for social justice out there some before i was teaching theater at the college level i was teaching theater to teens teens and to introduce theater to like a young person who's like maybe 14 13 or 14 especially if they're like someone who's been a bit shy or kind of like a loner and not have it a lot of friends someone like me that's how i was i had no friends like up

until maybe i did that first show like my freshman year of high school but i was the type of person that in elementary and junior high, I would come home after school and I would just like not hang out with friends. I didn't really have any friends. I was too shy, too awkward. And I think the theater. Or in general, an arts program can really get someone to come out of their shell and connect to a different part of themselves that society doesn't really foster.

I think as a society, we encourage young people to play sports or to do extracurricular activities that are not necessarily creative. And I think to be creative, to play, that kind of gets people to discover different parts of themselves. And I do think that theater, when introduced at a young age, can really give people social skills, communication skills, and get people to be able to recognize their own gifts and talents and just makes people more confident. And that is what happened to me.

It's sort of, I got to witness how profound, how theater transformed my way of being and my way of interacting with the world around me. And I think ever since I've been an arts educator, because I want other younger people who kind of feel awkward and alone and a misfit, I think the arts can help them create community or find community. Right. And fight themselves. Fight themselves. Yeah. And then get them out of their shell and just be able to open up and just be the butterfly that they are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for everyone, it's different. For some people, it is sports that do that. Right. But a lot of people don't talk about the arts. Yeah. We don't talk about the creative piece of it versus, you know, oh, to go ahead and play baseball or basketball or tennis.

Right. Like, no, go in. but was you afraid to talk to people and like in open settings before that like were you that side that you were like oh i don't want to talk in front of a crowd like oh my god i think i was just sort of like a quirky okay so you already you you had the gift of jab okay i had the gift of gab but like i was like maybe a quirky young kid who was like obsessed with like i love lucy yeah i just wasn't like other

kids okay like i didn't care about anything else you know so yeah i just stood it didn't really find a group of people that i connected with, now do you put on shows as well as a professor or do you like i don't not through the school i'm too new there for me to for them to give me that responsibility though that would be a We'll keep our ear to the ground because it's going to be soon. Yeah, hopefully soon. I do sort of produce my own events, not very often.

I think before we started recording, I was telling you about an event I did a few months ago that Dr. Mikey was involved in, like a queer Arab storytelling event that I did in L.A. in October. So I'll do events like that, some sort of community-oriented storytelling event in which most likely Arabs or Muslims or queers are taking the stage and sharing a bit about themselves.

Ourselves i can't wait for the next one i will let her go to something like that i'll let you know i uh don't have anything on the docket as right i ain't trying to put no pressure on you now maybe soon i'll keep my ear to the ground i'm like wait i want to tell you in high school, i auditioned for the breakfast club oh for the part of i don't even remember part i was auditioning and i did a monologue from breakfast at tiffany's where paul varjack talks and does his whole speech at the end about

what was it where it's like you know what your problem is yeah that one whoever you are i was gonna stick you in a cage whatever yeah did that whole thing and then i got the part of bender from the breakfast club and then i'll tell you what i I sure didn't come for the callback and I didn't do anything with it. And I just ignored it. And I was like, Oh, I don't want anyone to make fun of me. So I regret it so bad. Oh, that's too bad. Well, we have to put it on so you could play. Yeah.

Oh, we just came up with our new show. But to all you little queers out there, you better do the callback. Cause I felt so later. Cause I was like, I should have just did it. you didn't want people to make fun of you that's what it was I was shy and I was like they're just gonna call me gay even though I already am gay.

That's too bad I know but I just had to tell you that I internalize homophobia it's real did you guys ever audition for anything no I never did do that I've just always acted up so, I wanted to can I like bring something up around like faith hell yeah Yeah, I miss him.

And it's also going to be related to, say, what's happening in Palestine. Go for it. Something that I find very inspiring is that a lot of these people who don't know whether they're going to live, people are being slaughtered all around them and massacred all around them. A lot of the things they are doing is going deeper into their faith. They're taking this really difficult time as an opportunity to even be more invested in God and to literally just be reciting prayers all day.

And it's like with no clarity on their future, like with a future that looks so dark and whether they're not going to survive or not, the one thing that they have to hold on to now is their faith. And so I think that's a really powerful example of how faith really can be an anchor, and that it can be... I think there's this sort of idea that if we're created, and so if we come from a source, and if people call that source God, that...

This world separates us from that, you know, like as we get older, like when we're a baby, we're, we just came from God. We're like at our source, our most sort of like our powerful self, our purest, most essential self. And then as we get older and as we experience pain and trauma, all these things take, separate us from God and that the task of life is to go go back to God.

And I think when you see people who are facing utter horror and utter tragedy, I think while that's a time where faith gets tested and it's like, oh, how does... Some people are going to be like, well, God clearly doesn't exist because why would God allow this to happen?

And then there are the people who this is happening to who actually even go deeper into to their faith, you know, and don't see it as, they don't see the horror all around them as evidence of a lack of God, but more as an opportunity to even go closer to God, to. Go, to return to their source, especially if they see that their time on earth is limited. It's like, then, you know, that means we need to be as close to God as possible.

I don't know. I find it very inspiring. I think some of the more spiritual people I know are Palestinians, you know, and they probably have all the excuse not to be. Yeah. Yeah. No, and that makes sense. Because, you know, a lot of like, I have clients and they always lean on religion, the clients, and they say it's really helpful and beneficial for them. So like, I do have respect for religion and what like provides and brings comfort,

you know, to people. it's beautiful yeah for those who are you know. Spiritually like open and connected it can be a real yeah comfort yeah and like i said i missed that when i stopped practicing i missed that comfort there was a lack of comfort in my life so how did you get like so i know that you went to the the retreat but how did you end up like deep diving back in? Did you just start attending? I think it was just like a realization.

Like a self-realization around what is possible and that this world is limiting and that God is beyond that. And so, I think when I recognized that I had been living out a story of that, God doesn't love me because I'm gay or whatever, that that really was just a man-made story. And our brains are limited in our language and are limited in our capacity to understand.

So if you sort of let understanding go and the ability to know and like the requirement to know and to name, I think it's a lot easier to sort of accept what is possible. Like everything is limitless and like God is abundant and love is abundant. Right. That's very woo-woo. It is. But you know what? It's kind of woo-woo that we like. Mm-hmm. Woo-woo. I agree.

This has been very enlightening. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this stuff. It's nice to remind myself. Because it's not like things I articulate very often. It's not. Because you probably don't. I mean, yeah. Yeah, because I was going to ask you, like, has teaching been hard recently? No. Like, you mean with, like, what's happening? Yeah. No, if anything, I would say that the youth are very inspired. I mean, right. It is a different group of students that are leading.

Yeah, the youth seem to be connected to just to at least around like, say, this issue. Yeah. It seems like the youth I'm interacting with at my school and my campus, they're recognizing the Palestinian right to be free. And I do think former or older generations have always recognized the need for the state of Israel to exist and sort of ignored what that means for the Palestinians. But the younger people don't have an emotional connection to Israel because the Holocaust was a long time ago.

So I think you're finally seeing people being able to sort of recognize the injustice of it from an objective point of view, not from some ancestral point of view. Right. Yeah. It's true, because I feel like, at least in the American folklore, right? Like, when we made up Israel, it was very much like, there was no problem in that. Yeah. And that it's something that Jewish people needed to feel safe in the world after the Holocaust.

Because they didn't tell us the part where there was already people there. They left that part conveniently out. Right. Yeah.

Which they do all the time. just like there were no people here yeah right yeah exactly because if we're all about lands that are used to be people's lands they are not about giving no indians their lands, leave it up to them we came over here by ourselves yeah yeah oh good no no good i guess i i'm curious uh because i feel like with what's happening in palestine the genocide like i feel like the topic of like colonialization has like really been on people's more minds more and i

feel like the idea of like land back has starting to really gain so i don't know like for for you as someone who does social justice theater just social justice oriented what is it like to kind of see that kind of on a main stage and being talked about it's nice to see that people are starting to recognize that. How oppression is, how all oppressions are interconnected.

And that I think for years, you know, people would attach, you know, the equal rights movement here and, like, Black liberation to the Palestinian liberation movement as well. It's this idea of a whole population of people being treated as, like, less than and not given the same resources or opportunities to succeed.

And I think the more people can recognize that what is happening in Palestine is also happening here, has been happening here, and is happening in places all over the world, that it's all interconnected.

And I do think that that's what people are starting to recognize, is that the palestinian issue is not just over there it's an issue around settler colonialism which is and and that the u.s is also funding what's happening over there and that we're that we're a settler colonialist nation too and that there are indigenous people here who have been eradicated and basically removed erased from sort of the narrative of this country you know at least the dominant narrative in this country yeah and

that it's really important from at least an artistic standpoint from a theatrical standpoint to invest in native voices to invest in preserving the stories of the the people who were the original inhabitants of this land, because the dominant culture is actively erasing all those stories. Yep. Dead part. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Motherfuckers. What would you say, from your point of view, would be the most effective way to help the.

Palestinian situation? I mean, I guess the most effective way is to talk about it, is to get as many people informed as possible, like bring it up at the dinner table. Because I think it's really easy to not. It's easy to look the other way. And I think the more people care, the more people can't turn a blind eye. Like this country, the political leaders want nothing more than to turn a blind eye to it.

And what really is the goal is for the Palestinian population to be eradicated and for Israel to expand. That is what they're trying to do. Israel is trying to now take Gaza after it's It's taken almost everything else. You know, if you look at an old map of what Palestine was and versus what Palestine looks like today. And then basically now Gaza is about to be erased as well, you know, or swallowed up by Israel. At least that's the goal.

That I think it's easy to just sort of look the other way and let that happen. It's been happening for 75 years. So I think the more, probably the most effective way is to like not stop talking about it, you know, and to like call your reps, make sure that you know where your political leaders stand. And, you know, the Congress person who represents me voted to send money, to send arms to Israel.

So, you know, like, I live in a congressional district in which my congressional leader doesn't, you know, doesn't give a fuck about how I feel.

But that doesn't mean we can't let them know. You just went to a protest, no? Yeah. What happened there? Which one was it? Did you go, like, yesterday? No, I didn't go to that one. Because I hasn't do. But I've been to ones before, like... There was a group that was holding protests outside of City Hall because they wanted the city council to sign a ceasefire. So we were pressuring the city council to put that into action, to put it on the calendar so they can vote and do it.

And we had to go down. I think we went down like three or four times before it finally got put on and they talked about it. So they did get put on. Yeah, yeah. I think they voted for it too. So they signed on to a ceasefire here in Long Beach. The pressure does work. You have to. You have to disrupt. And I think that has shown and that has worked, right?

The civil rights movement, like, they disrupted, right? The sit-ins, all that, you know, the Selma Walk and the march, you know, everything like that causes disruption because, like, that raises awareness, that puts it on people's radar.

Are and i i think a lot of people are getting caught up in in their feelings when they say this is disruption as a way to lose people from your movement and like i think those people aren't ready to hear these messages and because they're not they they don't want to deal with the reality of what's happening i like the people who say that we're never gonna be for the fucking i mean also likely that you know yeah i i think there's what we're also recognizing is probably because of the

24-hour news cycle and everyone having their own devices and stuff i do think that we've sort of that has led to a little bit of a dehumanization in the sense that i believe there's like seems like a moral apathy out there that feels like it's hard to overcome because it's like you know know with what's happening in palestine you know children have been murdered maybe like.

Tens of thousands of children have been murdered. And despite seeing images and video of it, a lot of people are still able to look the other way. And I think that's because we've gotten so used to scrolling past things that we can literally turn our attention away from anything that matters. Yeah. You know, so I do think that we're also seeing kind of a long term negative. Effect of everyone sort of having their own sort of device and being able to control the information that they consume.

Yeah no definitely yeah because it definitely it does feel fucking overwhelming it feels like when you see these images on twitter and it's just like i can't do anything and it's like after all the after everything i've already tried to do for myself here it feels like and now what can i do for other people nobody wants to listen to me nobody wants to help me nobody wants to to vote in my direction a congress people aren't listening and it just feels hopeless it does yeah but

i mean that's what the system is created to do right like it's meant to take so long so people give up and so people feel hopeless and like doing this requires like so much energy that's why you need a community to do it right there needs to be a lot of people doing it and i think a lot of this the focus should be on like just making noise and awareness right like we see these videos and yes we can't we can do things it's just not like what we want to do like we want to save those people's life

like right there right then you know and and unfortunately that's not possible but there are definitely things that we can do true yeah there are definitely things we can do but i think it's hard you know because like my thought came back because it's also like to see.

How people like dissociate or not like acknowledging this but i think it's also so it's been interesting to see the propaganda that's been spewed and i think that's that is playing a huge role like you know the whole equating anti-zionism with being anti-semitic you know and and using october 7th as a guise to support this it's just i don't understand how people can really i don't know it's interesting that people fell for that narrative

and maybe it's because like we had at our own, like, September 11th, and, like, look how we responded. Right. I don't know. Yeah. But, yeah, there's protests everywhere. There's a lot of action. Because I feel like... Excuse my white tears. But I feel like, you know, when they always say, like, what would you be doing if this was World War II and there was Jews in the concentration camps? This is what you'd be doing right now. And then it does feel very much like

that. And it feels very much like, well, what am I fucking doing? I'm not doing anything. I can't do anything. I mean, and I also think probably in World War II, there probably wasn't a whole lot that you could do to stop that from happening. I mean, that's why there was a war going on. So I think it's also a little misleading to like connect it to like in action back in the 1940s.

Like, yeah, I think it's, it's kind of like sad that if anyone, if anything, there's like a blame on the people for not being able to stop this genocide. Right. It's like, no blame the government. Yeah. Like, like it's not our fault that this genocide has happened. And you know all we really can do is call attention to it or ask for a ceasefire or whatever but we're not the ones in control yeah yeah god damn well vote people out vote people out.

That's true that's true not that it's a depressing it's kind of a depressing point to sort of like i don't know leave on right but like we kind of leave every episode like that it feels natural there are things we can do yeah we can as a collective individuals we can put pressure on our elected politicians governed officials. Call your senator yeah call your mayor call your whoever the fuck and like don't let don't let let yourself become desensitized, you know, like keep yourself

human, you know? Yeah, exactly. You know, like don't, if you notice that you can turn away and go about your day, you know, question that. Why are you able to? What happened to you that you're able to? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think also understanding that like all our struggles are interconnected. So if we fight for one, we fight for all at the same time. So like if you put

energy in in something like you're it's gonna have a ripple effect as well. Yeah, I, I was just thinking back to the other episode where we were talking about those billboards where it's like Hamas is your problem in Downey. Which I pass on the way to. And it's like Hamas is definitely not our problem. Don't be mistaken. Hamas is your problem. I don't. As I'm fucking in Downey. I want that organization's money. Right? Those billboards are not cheap.

No, they're not. Especially on those electronic billboards. All up and down. What is it? The 91. Every day I go home, I see that shit. It's on the five as well. Wow. I never noticed. That's ridiculous. I don't go past the 91. It's to your limit. Yeah, I think it's called Jubilung. Oh, Jubilung. Oh, yeah. Do you have a social media in case our followers want to follow you and your... Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm at, on Instagram, I'm at DramaRoms.

So, and I've had this, this was my AIM screen name. Oh, okay. I love it. It's definitely 20 plus years old, but it's D-R-A-M-A, like drama, and then Roms, R-A-M-S, and my name is Rami. So people call me Roms, DramaRoms. Oh, I love it. On Instagram and Twitter. Okay. But I don't really tweet much. Drama. Oh, duh. It wasn't until I've gotten older that I realized that I might be sending the message that I'm drama. But I'm not. I swear I'm not. I work in the fields. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, you know what? I think that was a good one. I think that was a very good one. Was. Was there anything else that comes to mind or...

Know just thank you for doing this podcast thank you for in terms of representation you know representing queer long beach and but like just thank you for carving out a space for local queers to talk about themselves and you know show that we're here and that we're part of long beach you You know, take it from a native Long, or a born, someone born in Long Beach. Take it from him. Yeah. All right, everybody. Okay.

Well, I think that was a good one, like I already said. I'd like to say thank you. Thank you. I'd also like to say thank you to myself, Nina. I'd like to say thank you to Christoph, Dr. Mikey, and of course, our very special guest. From all of us here at the Queer OBC you're good enough, you're smart enough and doggone it, people like you goodnight, thank you, goodnight goodnight, sleep tight.