I'm Jonathan Walton and this is Queen of the Khan. The Unreal Housewife, Episode seven, a bonus episode Jenshaw and The Dropout.
The world works in certain ways until a new great idea comes along and changes everything. What if you could test your blood in your own home, and what if it wasn't a whole file but just a drop.
That's a clip from The Dropout, an amazing Hulu series about Jenshaw adjacent scammer Elizabeth Holmes, a woman who conned investors out of hundreds of millions of dollars, tricking them all into believing that her company Fair Nose invented this little magic machine that could test for hundreds of diseases and ailments using a single drop of blood. It was like something you'd see on Star Trek. Walgreens in fact, invested a fortune in Elizabeth Holmes and actually started installing
these little blood drop test machines in their stores. Come to find out they didn't work at all. The entire blood drop test machine was an elaborate hoax because as hard as Elizabeth Holmes tried to invent this thing, and she tried really hard, she just couldn't do it. She spent millions of dollars, hired and fired hundreds of talented scientists and engineers. She built dozens of prototypes, but ultimately
none of them functioned, but she pretended they did. She not only built investors out of millions in her insane quest, but testing her machine on actual patients caused massive misdiagnoses and one of her employees actually committed suicide over the whole thing. In the end, Elizabeth Holmes got criminally charged and convicted of fraud and was sentenced to more than eleven years in federal prison. And guess what, Right now, she's actually serving time with Jen Shaw.
So Elizabeth Holmes has asked to go to the same federal prison camp that Genshaw's at. This doesn't surprise me.
The amazing Emily de Baker again host of the Emily Show podcast.
It's the western most minimum security women's prison camp, which makes it easier for family to visit. And that's in Brian, Texas. And we will see Elizabeth Holmes and Jenshaw at the same women's prison for a substantial number of years. Do they write a book together? Do they start a business venture together? I want to know everything about the conversations between Elizabeth Holmes and Jenshaw because both of them have
argued similar things. I was caught up in this. I was trying to prove myself as a woman in this field. The men around me were manipulating me. I didn't know that this was fraudulent. I believed in what I was doing. I didn't believe that this was harmful. They both have had very similar defenses in their cases. I had these horrible things happened to me in the past, and that is an excuse for what I'm doing now. I think there's a lot of similarity there. I am fascinated to
see what happens. I wish they were filming a show. Is that terrible? Maybe it's terrible, but I want to know.
I agree it's fascinating. But I do think at their core they are different women, different criminals. What differentiates Jenshaw from Elizabeth Holmes, in my mind, is Jenshaw is a scammer, right. I don't think Elizabeth Holmes intended to be a scammer. I really do believe Elizabeth Holmes believed she could make this thing that could test a thing with a drop of blood. I think that because she kept hiring engineers to create it, and when they couldn't, she'd fire them
and hire more engineers, and she kept trying. I do believe Elizabeth Holmes, in her heart of hearts, really did believe she could do it, and she just needed more time and more money, and lying to get it seemed like a decent price to pay. Whereas jenshaw knew it's a scam out of the gate, I'm just going to ride this train as long as I can and suck all these people out of as much money as I can.
I know this is all a lie. Whereas Elizabeth Holmes, Yes, she lied and stole money and built investors, But I believe she believed she could do it. She could create this thing that would revolutionize blood tests all over the world and save lives. I believe she thought she could do it. But you know, that's not a defense.
But what scamming investors, you know, scamming investors out of four high hundred nine hundred million dollars and having patients get her patients were getting results, they were her answer or didn't or were in remission or weren't. The potential impacts I think of Elizabeth Holmes are broader than Jenshaw because of the amount of people her scam reached because
it was getting put into Walgreens and Safeway. But with Genshaw, I wonder if she also believed that these are just shady marketing practices, that this isn't really criminal, like it's questionable. It's not wire fraud and money laundering. It's just questionable.
No. I know she knew it was so bad because look at her attempts to conceal it, look at the offshore accounts in the message. She knew it was wrong. She knew she'd go to jail for it if they caught her, and she tried her darness not to get caught. Whereas, yes, Elizabeth Holmes knew line to investors to get money was wrong, but in her mind she was doing it for noble
cause to invent this thing. And again, if Elizabeth Holmes was a scammer, scammer, scammer, she would have just taken the money and ran.
That's true. She did end up with nothing.
But she really did try. She tried to. She had labs, she had teams of scientists hiring and firing the minute they couldn't invent the thing. She had in her head, she'd fire them and replace them with others who could from Apple, from Google, from whatever. You know, Like she really did believe she's crazy. I'm not saying she's not crazy, but I don't think you know, she had more character than Jenshaw.
Do you think there was like an altruistic narcissism to it, where it was a I'm just crazy enough to believe I can change the world. And everyone was gassing her up, and she's like, so what if I have to change a few things and lie to investors about how it's happening. At the end of the day, the good it will be good is going to be worth it. So it's when it all cost versus scam. It all costs.
Maybe, I mean, and that makes her a little better, but definitely I don't. She's not a I mean, she's not a con artist. She just you know, got carried away with a dream. Let me be her attorneys.
I love that you're like, I can argue this for Elizabeth Holmes because I can see the altruism or No.
It's not necessarily poor Elizabeth Holmes. It's just that I don't think her intention.
She didn't go into it defrauding. She went into it with a purpose to make a change and defrauded to get to that purpose because when it became, when it all costs. Her partner in his sentencing submission called her a zealot. He said she had a religious fervor to make this happen and was going to like basically cross any boundary to make it happen, like laws be damned, I'm going to force this thing into existence, which is a difference from Shaw because it was also boundaries be damned.
But the end result with Genshaw was just financial. But where did hers go? Jenshaw seemingly also has nothing. Elizabeth Holmes and her sentencing submission said, but I've already lost all my stock options in my private plan. Cry me a river about your stock options. But they made the same argument that you're making and sentencing is. But she took nothing. She never cashed out the business. She went down with the ship and is now going to prison
for going down with the ship. But it's not different than other venture capital that fails. Not everything that investors invest in becomes the next big thing. So it and the people.
I'm not saying she's a good I don't think she's a good I think there's a difference. I'm just saying motive wise, her motives were never.
Evil, her victims were more savvy, her victims were. I mean, she was convicted of defrauding investors, not patients. I think a lot of the patients of theirness were also victims here. But she was convicted of defrauding investors who are savvier than the victims of Genshaw. Genshaw was preying on non sophisticated victims in order to perpetrate this fraud. Elizabeth Holmes was praying a much more sophisticated investors.
But I don't think she was preying on anyone. I really do believe, just like Sonny said, she was a zealous She believed she could make she could will this and do existence at all costs, which I'm not saying is a good thing, but at least she has some kind of noble intent at the end of the day, as horrible as it turned out, as many disgusting things she did to get there or try to get there, she really did believe there was a there there Whereas
a regular scammer like Jenshaw, who's so similar to every other scammer under the sun. They know there's no there there. They're just gonna lie, cheat and steel to get as much money as they can in a short amount of time as they can get it and run away. So there's the difference. I don't think Elizabeth Holmes is a scammer.
You make a good point. Elizabeth Holmes did not try to conceal what she was doing with fair Nose. In fact, it went the other way. She was as big and bold and public ash she could be, but behind the scenes she was concealing that none of it worked. She was concealing how the processes were happening and lying about it to continue to get money from investors. So there
was some concealment there. When she was threatened to be outed that she was not actually using her machine and was actually manipulating other machines, those people were fired and threatened. The way she sent David Boyce after the whistleblowers is horrific. So there was concealment from Elizabeth Holmes in a different way.
But yes, I do think she believed that these were reasonable boundaries to cross, and what's cracking a few eggs to make an omelet At the end of the day, because at the end of the day, I do think she believed she was going to revolutionize health care for everyone. But it was all lies and bullshit, and.
There's a documentary series and a scripted series. But one of the things that stunned me she would put on the voice.
And now we know it was all an act, because Elizabeth Holmes, in this reworking of her life for The New York Times has dropped the voice and dropped the act. It was all part of the con. The persona was all part of the con.
But again I would argue, yes, it was part of that con. But she was doing it because she knew she had to sound, you know, for lack of a better term, less feminine, more masculine, to be taken.
To your sea because she was a twenty year old college dropout and all of her professors said, sweetie, this can't be done the way you're saying it, and she went, no, it can be done. It will be done, and I will do it. So I think the argument we're having is was Elizabeth Holmes altruistically delusional into believing that what she was going to create at the end of the day would work, where Jenshaw knew at the end of the day, none of this was ever going to work.
Sites were never going to work. Where Elizabeth Holmes was chasing down something she honestly believed would work, and everyone who was telling her otherwise were just you know, haters, non believers. Weren't drinking the kool aid. But doesn't that just make her a cult leader? Like at the end of the day, like this is what's going to happen. Everyone says it can't happen, and she's like, but it can if you just drink the green juice and believe me.
I mean, so, if the shoe was on the other foot, right, let's say Jen Shaw was in Elizabeth Holmes position, there would be no Thearaohnos, there'd be no laboratory, there'd be no scientists, there'd be no prototypes.
Right, because that's overhead. She would just be taking the money.
She'd just be taking the money and making up another story why this is not here or that's not there, taking more money, taking more money. So again it's a you know, we're splitting hairs because ultimately both women did horrendous things and heard a lot of people.
I think it's a great conversation though, about the different kinds of personalities and the different kinds of cons where Elizabeth Holmes had this. I mean, both of them have this larger than life personality. I find Genshaw more captivating than I find Elizabeth Holmes, but I think they both used the way that they could draw people in, different people, the way they could draw people in to perpetrate fraud.
And Elizabeth Holmes knew she was perpetrating fraud. I just think she believed at the end of the day, somehow they would make it work and it would all be fine and all the eggs that were broken would just go away. Because that's really Isn't that how venture capital investing works. Isn't that how you do things when you're
trying to create something new? You know, it's not really lying that it doesn't work, even though it was where Jenshaw knew it was lying, is what you're saying, and knew that at the end of the day it never would work out. There was never going to be a turnaround. That's your point exactly.
It was a scam out of the gate. And because it bothers me that a lot of people throw this term con artist around, they call everyone a con artist, but you know, a con artist is a specific type of creature where they make plans to get money and it's all smoke and mirrors. Nothing really is true, nothing exists. It's all just a scam and you realize that and usually they get away. But they call Elizabeth Holmes a con artist. I don't think she is a con artist.
She is a criminal. She lied and cheated investors, but she's not a con artist. Billy McFarland fire Festival guy, everyone calls everyone calls him a car You see him.
More like Elizabeth Holmes, like I can pull it off. Just give me a little bit more time, give me a little bit more money. I can make it happen.
I did a deep dive into Firefest. I do believe he really did think he could do it, and he tried.
But at what point is delusion? I guess at what point is that criminal or not criminal? And that's no, it's absolutely criminal. I think he is criminal. What he did was criminal for sure, But he's not a con artist because if he were a con artist, he wouldn't have rented that eye pens or sandwich is. He wouldn't be trying to get music acts and sign all these Like I think he was just a bad businessman who got carried away with his vision like Elizabeth Holmes, and
thought he could pull it off. If you just give him more money, more time, you could do it. And it's interesting because with Elizabeth Holmes, a lot of what her lawyers argued was really this isn't fraud. This was dogged belief and it doesn't amount to wire fraud because she believed what she was telling investors. She believed that she would get there. But what they showed is that she was also changing documents and manipulating data and lying about it, and those are the things that got her.
But Elizabeth Holmes was not convicted of everything she was charged with, and so I think that the jury was also split because they were like, no, she was lying to investors, but she wasn't really lying to client to patients,
and so there was more of a split there. But she was also charged with a lot more crimes and a lot more money than we saw Genshaw be charged with because the people that Elizabeth Holmes was defrauding, she was defrauding them out of millions at a time where Genshaw was defrauding your more normal, average, everyday person, where when she's defrauding them for thousands and sometimes tens of thousands, it's all that they have, so she's taking a larger
percentage of the individual's net worth even though it's less of a chunk of money, where Elizabeth Holmes is defrauding less people of much larger sums of money. And it's interesting in the federal sentence and guidelines, the amount of money taken and the amount of victims and the age of the victims all kind of calculate into a sentence. And at the end of the day, Elizabeth Holmes just
got binged for over four hundred million in restitution. But she's only serving eleven years, the same as chrisly and jen Shaw is serving six. So you know, the amount of time that they got is not so different when you look at it at the end.
Of the day. And Elizabeth Holmes went to try she did, which you know, just adds more weight to my belief. She really did believe she was about something bigger than herself, and she was. There is a certain I love your phrasing altruistic narcissism. Yes, I think that's what it was, but it wasn't a She didn't intend to scam anyone. She really tried to create this thing and she ended up scamming a ton of people to make this happen, and it never could happen.
She thought it was justified, and it was justified beyond her pocketing the money is what you're is what you're kind of seeing there. I love this conversation so much because it's it really did stick with me when her her partner called her a zealot, that was the words in his It struck me. I've never seen any one putting forth a sentencing memo to help someone and say that they had like a religious fervor to make it happen. Because then I was sitting there reading it, going wait,
is Elizabeth Holmes just like a scientific cult leader? Like this is wild to me that this is how he's likening her. But everyone who knew her in their sentencing memos pinned on what you're talking about. She believed that this would work at the end of the day, even though everyone was telling her no, even though it was an unreasonable belief, even though there was no objective criteria
to support the belief. It doesn't matter. She believed it, and then she likened herselves to people like Steve Jobs, who said, you know, oh, you can't make a cell phone like that, and he's like, I believe that we can. She's like, I'm doing the same thing. I'm making an iPhone.
And in a way, I mean yeah, I mean yeah. If you know anything about Apple and Steve Jobs, he is kind of Elizabeth Holmes.
That's how she saw herself.
It worked out for him, right because ultimately he was able to piece together the right team to create the iPhone, to create the iPod, but she never could. Who knows, ten years from now, they may invent this thing that can do all these tests from a drop of blood.
The investors wanted it to be true. The Faohnhos investors wanted this to be true. They wanted to be a part of something that would change the world. And I think they overrode their own red flags because they wanted it to be true, the same way Jenshaw's victims overrode their own red flags because they wanted this thing that was going to change their own life, this opportunity to make some more money in retirement, or make a little
bit more money from home to harness. The power of the Internet to make their lives a little bit better. All of these victims just wanted it to be true. So at the end of the day, did Genshaw ever believe it would be true for them? Maybe not. Did Elizabeth Holmes believe she could make it true for them? Maybe so?
Yeah, I think absolutely she did.
She named her daughter invicta Latin for invincible or unconquered.
I mean, it says it all, kind of does.
That's Victoria Thompson a journalist and executive producer for ABC News. She co wrote and produced the Dropout podcast for ABC Audio and was an executive producer on the Dropout TV series for Hulu. She's been immersed in the Elizabeth Holmes saga for the past five years.
Some of it will never leave my brain as long as.
At this point, I imagine you know more than most about Elizabeth Holmes. You know more than anyone else on Earth, I would wager, maybe not.
On Earth, but Rebecca Jarvis and Taylor Dunn, who I wrote, reported and produced both seasons of the podcast with they know just as much. One of the more surreal experiences was when we were covering the trial and doing this weekly series on the sort of minutia of the week.
The scripted series was shooting.
In Los Angeles, so we were kind of going from San Jose, California, to Los Angeles and you know, seeing the real Elizabeth Holmes in this small courtroom and going to the set where it was being portrayed by actors. Sort Of an interesting byproduct of that is we were getting all this discovery covering the trial, this cash of
five thousand text messages between her and Sonny. So we would go then back to the writers and say, oh my gosh, you know, we've just gotten all these very interesting text messages and you know nicknames they would call each other that. Then they would go back into the writer's room and start incorporating into scenes.
So that was pretty cool.
I'm sure they loved it, like the fresh original ideas they could just ping off of and create something amazing.
I think they loved and hated it. They were like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming.
But but yes, I think that ultimately they were happy to have some, you know, the real life boards.
Were you surprised Elizabeth Holmes went trial. I'm sure her attorneys explain to her and I learned this doing this podcast for the past few years that, especially at the federal level, if you're federally charged, there is a nearly one hundred percent chance you will be convicted if you go to trial. They have such a high percentage of convictions because the Feds have unlimited resources and they're not going to charge you unless they know they can win.
So most people in Elizabeth Holmes's position would plead guilty to get half or less of prison time she ended up getting. Did it surprise you she decided to roll the dice and go to trial?
It did not surprise me.
I think she has an unwavering kind of confidence and you know her innocence, and really thought she was going to be let off and I quit it of all counts, So honestly, I would have been far more shocked if she had pled.
What's your take, do you think Elizabeth Holmes is a con artist?
Well, I agree with you that at the beginning, she certainly did not intend to go out and defraud anybody. She really was incredibly ambitious. She had real drive to change the world with this revolutionary device that would help people around the world through healthcare and really be kind of a true game changer. For mankind, you know, and
I think she believed that to her core. As the prosecution often I would say in their arguments, where she's trying to create the product that will ultimately be what her vision, you know, intends. But she had this deadline, which was getting into the Walgreen stores, and she ran out of money, so as they kept saying as a refrain, she ran out of time, she ran out of money, and she started to lie.
She then doctored pharmaceutical reports.
She did things that you know she is now convicted of that led investors to believe a product was operating functionally, and you know, not just doing a number of tests, but doing on hundred of tests. The ambitions in the beginning were very noble, and then I do think she was rightfully guilty of fraud by the end.
Absolutely, she absolutely is a criminal. She is guilty. She did bad things. But in my mind, what differentiates her from a regular con artist like jen Shaw or any other is out of the gate. Jen Shaw's intention was to scam people.
Oh yeah, I would not say they are the same at all.
I mean, Elizabeth is a true like wide eyed dreamy at the beginning was yes, her intentions were pure.
You know, there were red flags.
Though, even on the early end, Like one of our favorite people we interviewed was Phyllis Gardner as this extraordinary professor who you know, invented time release technology and pills and genuinely did change, you know, healthcare for the world. When Elizabeth went to see her as a sophomore at Stanford, and Phyllis Cardner was just like, what are you talking
about this? You know, it would be great if, as she's told us, you could create a car that can fly or a car that can roll on square wheels, but that's not a real thing. And Elizabeth, you know, kind of famously brushed her off and just said fine, on to the next and went to another professor, Channing Robertson, who became one of her great champions, ended up being
on her payroll. She did have this this noble vision for sure, but she also had this kind of to quote her favorite Yoda, there is no try, only do. So she really had this tunnel vision for success. You know that I think astounded people around her, even at nineteen years old.
And that is one trait both Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shaw and every other con artist have in common. This bravado, this ego, this belief that they can do X y Z despite everyone telling them they can't or shouldn't. They know they can. They think they're above the criticism. They think they're above the rules, above the law. So she did have that early on, like I could do this. They don't know what they're talking about.
Yeah, she's a complicated person, like everybody. You know her childhood and how that may have led to this, this person that she became. This image of Elizabeth on the running track in high school and even though she's the slowest person on the track and she's lagging behind everybody, but.
She refuses to get off the track until.
She finishes the race, you know, way after everybody else's already off the track. She has this like, I will not stop. It does not matter what the naysayer say. A kid who was maybe a little bit of an outsider in high school, didn't fit in socially, wanted to prove herself. She wanted to prove to the world, to her family, to her peers, her parents, her professors, that you know, she was extraordinary.
Would you categorize Elizabeth Holmes as charming?
I mean, it's impossible that she's not because the way she was able to convince some of the most brilliant minds in the world that she is this true visionary people who supported her till the very end. Everyone talks about this incredible charm she had, kind of you know, looking at you right in the eyes and really just just absolutely captivating a kind of intellectual way.
And I do think those are the only two things Elizabeth Holmes has in common with jen Shaw and other con artists is a the ego and b this charm offensive that they can disarm people, intelligent people, people who quote should know better. They ignore the red flags, they ignore any skepticism they might have, and they just get on the ride and go with her.
You know, the list is insane.
The Henry Kissinger's, the Bill Frists, William Cohen, you know, George Schultz, former Secretary of State, just an unbelievable array of people.
One of the more.
Interesting parts the trial for us with seeing some of these men, mostly men, get up on the stand and describe, you know, sperience and their first time meeting Elizabeth. And you know, even when the first Wall Street Journal article
came out, they still didn't doubt her one bit. Just hearing like, you know, Wayne Millica and Stephen Bird, Jim Maddis, I mean Mad Dog Maddis, Like one after the next of these guys getting on the stand and talking about her charm and her you know, just how unbelievably impressed they were with her was pretty unbelievable.
It really does prove that famous Mark Twain quote true. It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled. You know, even in the face of that Wall Street Journal report, these people believe Elizabeth Holmes in light of evidence she's a fraud. And I think it's human psychology. At the end of the day. It's not so much that they steadfastly believe in her in light of criticism and evidence against her. It's that
it's hard for them to admit they were wrong. They don't want to admit they're wrong.
Absolutely, Yes, it's humiliating.
Yeah. In season two of Queen of the Khan, we profiled con artist Lizzie Mulder, and I managed to speak to Even after Lizzie Mulder went to federal prison and served time and pled guilty, she had this ardent supporter who was a dog trainer who I talked to you, and she's like, you all are just making this up about Lizzie Mulders. She's innocent, she didn't do anything, you all. And I was just stunned that even after years of this woman pleaded guilty and served her time and got out,
you still believe her. And then I was schooled by FBI criminal profiler Canvas DeLong, who explained to me that basically, yeah, it's hard for some people to admit they were wrong. So it's not so much that they believe the con artists. They just can't come to terms with themselves being wrong because in their mind, if they're wrong about this, they could be wrong about everything. I don't want to face that, so they hang.
On, Oh my gosh. Absolutely, do you have.
Any theories or opinions on why Elizabeth Holmes wanted to go to that federal prison in Brian, Texas where Jen Shaw is at.
I mean, I don't, just because we haven't spoken to anyone that has any insight into that.
You know, they call it club fed and.
It's very similar to the federal prison where Martha Stewart served time.
As prisons go, it seems pretty manageable.
I'm sure those sort of things laid in.
I didn't know they call it club fed to me that Engender's kind of a it's an easier place to do time than other prisons. I do remember pictures and photographs of Martha Stewart every now and then in the prison yard outside hanging out with people, and by Martha Stewart's accounts, if I recall, she had somewhat of a pleasant time there. She made friends, she taught people how to so right.
She was like Olmec Captain's.
I heard those Martha Stewart accounts too, But I've heard other prisoners say it's not like that. It's a prison, that there are some unsanitary conditions. But I've definitely heard accounts that run the Gamut.
Jen definitely wasn't taking in the overhead that Elizabeth Holmes had Emily D. Baker again, because we've seen in all the reporting and the reporting from John Carey ru that Elizabeth Holmes was burning millions a month in trying to make this happen in payroll and in overhead and in scientists. She was running a business, and then as it wasn't going well, started lying about what was happening to float it versus Jenshaw, who didn't seem to ever take on
that kind of overhead. All of Jenshaw's overhead went to people to milk money out of victims.
Exactly, selling things that don't really exist. Yeah, that's the difference. A con artist sells things that don't exist, and Elizabeth Holmes, Bill and McFarland selling the dream they believe they can do it.
Yeah, selling hope.
I think when Elizabeth Holmes goes to prison and meets Jenshaw, and based on Jenshaw's ideation of putting a show together, in my mind, I suddenly see that old ethel Merman song anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you. No you cant, Yes I can't. No you get you know, like them doing a take on that for the inmates Entertainmentay, I see it.
I can also see both of them commiserating how they were wronged, because I think Jenshaw sees herself more like an Elizabeth Holmes, like I was wronged. These are marketing practices. Maybe I lied in telling people how much they're going
to make. I think that's how Jenshaw wants to see herself, and I just am very interested to see what happens here and if we end up seeing Jenshaw and Elizabeth Holmes becoming becoming besties while they are in custody together, and whether we see that shared in the stories Genshaw is doing on Instagram set up a website that you can pay monthly for access. I mean, who's giving Jenshaw their credit card number anymore? But you could pay monthly
for access to kind of her diaries in custody. And she's been sharing those things on Instagram as well, and it's really interesting. But people are still curious. People are still interested, and they want to know the rest of this story. And I want to know if Jenshaw and Elizabeth Holmes become become buddies in custody or not. I mean, Elizabeth Holmes has had the you know, the New York Times article that's trying to reframe her is Liz, and so does she want to kind of steer clear and
keep her head down? But you need friends in custody.
Only time will tell. Make sure you listen to our next Bonus episode where I interview reality television impresario Carlos King, who actually produced several seasons of Housewives and the incredib Kate Casey, a true Housewives expert and host of the podcast Reality Life with Kate Casey. What's the latest? You both have heard about what Jenshaw has been up to in federal prison.
She's running that joint.
I think she's from her her bottom, bitch.
That's the woman, ry K She's found her bottom, bitch.
You haven't seen the end of Jenshaw.
She will be on reality television shows for the rest of her life.
If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, click that share button and send it to your friends and family. Also, if you can leave us a five star review, reviews really help other listeners find us. Queen of the Con. The Unreal Housewife is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Jonathan Walton. Executive producers Jonathan Walton for
Jonathan Walton Productions and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Jonathan Walton, segment producer Gregory Harvey, Senior associate producer Jill Peshesnik, Coordinator Melina Krolevsky, Edited by Justin Longerbe Audio engineer Justin Longerbee Studio engineer Maximo Abraham, legal counsel for AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard