Welcome to the quality of mind transforming business podcast, where we explore the game changing understanding that can unlock new levels of performance and well being in the workplace.
If you want to be part of the new breed of leaders in business, if you're fed up with the conventional echo chamber, and if you want to be part of a revolution in human potential, then join us to discover the powerful resource that lives before our psychology Welcome to the quality of mind, transforming business podcast series. And today I've got, Oh, a great conversation lined up because this guest has been on the show three times before, but he, but we haven't chatted for over three years.
We just realized it was 2020 when we last. spoke and we did a series of three wonderful episodes all about the magic of coaching and what the secret sauce to coaching is. So it was about time we got back in contact. And I said to Dominic Gasfidi, come along, Dom, let's get on the show again. Let's see what's fresh for us. And let's have one of our wonderful conversations and very lucky listeners. He said, yes. So Dominic, welcome back. How are you? Oh, terrific. How could I say no?
We had some amazing conversations. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm thrilled to be back again and to, to see where we are today because I know everything's gone deeper for, for both of us. The only direction it goes, right? Exactly. And that's, aren't we lucky we do this job. So I'm really looking forward to this. So, in case anyone, any wayward listener cannot remember. A little bit about your background, Dominic, can you just give a couple of minutes about you and what you do and how come?
Uh, so I'm, um, um, an executive coach, master certified coach credentialed through the International Coaching Federation. And I've been coaching for about 15 years. And , I had a 20 year corporate career before that in large organizations, , sales, marketing, and then HR. , my last corporate role was a vice president of human resources in a, in a large retail organization. Um, and then coaching since then.
And my business is, um, basically it's senior leaders, um, executives are a lot of, um, my one to one clients. And then also team coaching. I will coach those teams, often a leadership team. Um, as well. And the third little aspect of what I do around this corporate stuff is, um, training, uh, leaders and managers to become or to be great coaches rather than good bosses. So I'm training coaching abilities and skill within, um, there. So, yeah.
Yeah. So what that means is you're the real deal, proper, I say, genuine corporate experience. Uh, got the t shirt there and now you're working with business leaders in, in the thick of their day to day business lives. And you are helping them see some really profound things, because that's what the beauty and art of coaching is. , let's get stuck in a little bit.
So what is, and we were talking about this before we pressed for a call, but what's been really fresh for you and powerful for you in the last couple of years, um, that we can get stuck into? Yeah. Um, well, as we had spoken in before, you know, just this understanding that everything we're ever dealing with in, in business. In any sort of aspiration we have is only ourselves. I can say it like that. It's really only ourself. The challenge we have is only our own thinking.
It is only our own mind. This is the only challenge or issue we have. And, that all we are ever doing is in a state of expansion, expansion of our own seeing or realization, of our own thinking. It just begins to expand and become more. We are basically what I would say is one big self limitation. Who we think we are, we live as who we think we are leaders, executives, uh, that I work with.
That all we ever do is we deal with who they think they are, and we point them toward who they really are, which is far more than they think. And that is, you know, sort of the grounded and, and, you know, if anything's happened, I've only become more and more clear about that. Yeah. It's the only piece of work we ever need to do. And you said it so beautifully earlier is that nothing is. It's solid, so every thought is finite, every thought is already cooked, it's already formed.
So by definition, it is more finite than something infinite. Now where that gets really taking that, those profound statements I just said in, into the work that you and I do is that maybe you can give us an example of this when I finished is that you take a business leader.
Who looks at a situation or a circumstance and says, well, that's what the circumstances, and if, if maybe if I'm lucky, I can have different thinking about the circumstance, I can, you know, depending on a good day or a bad day, I can go, Oh, well, the market's tough, but yeah, I'll find a way now that there's still solidity in there and what you're pointing to is go, no, it's not solid. There is there's no circumstance or situation or person that is solidified.
Can you just say a bit more about that and maybe even give it a bit of an example? Yeah. You know, this, by the way, and the way we talk about it is certainly not the way that it would show up in a coaching conversation because we're, always as coaches, um, meeting the person where they are and challenging. That's part of an important thing is challenging. And the way I see it today is how they are self limiting. So if you take even in this example.
Um, yeah, there is nothing solid really to be dealing with. There's not an economy out there. There's not a certain condition. There's, there's not, where, um, and, and it's solid. Like now I have to think about it. Now I have to deal with that. Um, the truth is. That the very, uh, thing that you are dealing with, you are dealing with it in your own mind.
So I often joke about this where I say, you know, let's take even a practical example of a, of a, of a leader wanting to be whatever, wanting more, , responsibility or an ability in their career to do something else, but they're like, yes, but my boss is a micromanager. Yeah. Now, so there's a pretty solid thing. You've got a boss micromanager. And they are the way they are, right? And it seems like a real problem, like you've got to deal with them.
But upon deeper examination, um, I'm not sure if there is or isn't a boss, and we're not going to debate that, because here's the thing we can agree, that the only boss you have a problem with, if we really look, the one you have a problem with, Is the one that exists in your mind that has been narrated by your own thinking and you say, yeah, yeah, but I get that. But there is a real one. They walk around this office and and by the way, and all my colleagues agree. All my colleagues agree.
In other words, there is a mass. Consciousness, reality that to that form, not just my own, there's a bunch of agreement around it. And I say, yes, yes, yes, but we don't need to debate that because, uh, you'll never have to deal with that. The only one that'll ever give you a problem that will ever only get in your way, that will not promote you, that will, you know, cause you a lot of trouble.
The only one that will do that is the one in your mind that is made of the thought that you're narrating. That's the one that will cause you trouble, right? It will never be another boss that you will ever have to deal with or interact with, right? And so just upon a little bit of exploration there, you can sort of start to see the truth of this. And I think then let's take that same scenario and take it a bit further because then the other limitation we put in.
Is. Uh, a degree of limitation or, um, cause of effect on what can happen in change and what can't. So people have like, well, change happens in a linear fashion. So for that boss to be different, the one that's in my mind, that just can't happen overnight that can't magic itself. Um, let's say I was going to turn this business around or something that there's, there's things that have to happen cause to create effect.
Now, when we get into looking at creation and the magic of creating, and I know this is a topic you're so elegant about and clear about, uh, Dominic, so maybe you can share a bit of your wisdom on this is that doesn't work in the way we've been taught either around the synchronicity and serendipity of, of, of creation.
So my guess is that when you're working with a client and they're looking for something to be different, we want number one pointing to the fact, well, the only reality of the situation is the one in your mind. And secondly, the possibility of that being different is not shackled by linear cause and effect in the way that we might think. Oh, very, yeah, very good. In fact, in fact, the.
From a purely spiritual understanding, when I say that I mean an understanding of who you really are, your true nature and the nature of reality, right? So, because the more you understand that, the more effective you are, the more Ultimately, the happier you are, the more joyful you are when you go deeper into understanding who you really are, your true nature and the nature of reality, right? That that, um, realization or understanding is just a further and further, uh, movement toward joy.
It's, we'll call it, it's a further and further movement toward everything you truly desire and everything you truly desire is in that direction. So, but what happens? It is like, uh, let's go to the practical reality. So I have, um, I have a business and we have terrible, uh, customer, um, feedback. And, uh, so this is real, we get complaints, we have complaints and. You know, they wait too long on our whatever, uh, to, to get things done or whatever to call us or like this.
And so a typical, right, this is the mesmerized by the created, already manifested, created reality as I'm mesmerized or hypnotized by it. I lock into, well, what's going on? How long are the wait times on our phones? How long are the da da da? And I, and now, um, it's interesting because if, if you look at this, my attention to it, my focus upon it takes that Thing and is expanding it in the direction of my attention. So this problem, I, I want to call a meeting.
I want a meeting and I want everyone at the meeting because we're going to get to the root of this problem and I want to hear all of the issues that are going on and all that. So now I'm expanding. I want even a deeper focus and movement of attention, not just my attention. I want. Everyone's attention on what this issue is and what's really interesting is I don't realize that I am solidifying a reality that I do not want by our attention to it and it's like a trick.
It's like, it's like we got taken in because there was a complaint or there are complaints. There is a problem. It's a real problem. It's costing us money. So we need to put our attention here and it's like a trick. We got, we got taken in, we, we got taken in to invest something more valuable than our resources and dollars. Is we've now invested our own consciousness. Yeah. The only, the only creator of all things, which is consciousness.
We just got taken in investing all of our consciousness into what we do not want that has been created some way, somehow. And now we're all looking at it and now we're all talking about it and now we are all acting upon it. as if it were real. And so now what magic would look like would be, wow, these wait times are too long and we're losing business and dollars are an issue, whatever it's costing us.
And what is now clear, what is now more clear that we do want, which is What we want is to serve. What we want is to offer customers what they want. What we want is to bring value to them. What we want is to be, is to respect them in their time. Now where did I just shift all attention? Let's call a meeting! Let's call a meeting and speak to that creation. Let's call a meeting, let's bring everyone together with a consciousness directed to what we are creating.
What is now more clear because of that issue, that is really what we desire to create. Um, so that now investment in consciousness is something that can be created which does not stand on the changing of a solid because there were never was a solid. So it does not stand on or rely on the changing of a thing. It's really a fresh creation from nothing. And that's what transformation looks like.
And I think that's so, I mean, listen, so I'd urge people to listen to that bit two or three times because there's a lot of nuance in there. Because at one level, it might just sound like, oh yeah, focus on what you want, not what you don't want. You know, that, that classic pink elephant thing where if you imagine, but you know, but actually, no, there's, there's, there's, there's more to it than that. Let me see if I can add a little bit and you can tell me if I'm in the right direction.
If we are coming, looking at a problem, well, as a problem coming from lack and scarcity, right? Coming from, from seeking, here's something that's wrong, the problem. And we need to fix this to get to okay. Or, or, or, or, you know, we're already putting the attention on the lack, on the perceived scarcity. And that then puts more consciousness investment. As you said, I love the idea of investing consciousness. Where should we invest our consciousness?
You know, like we invest our assets, but you know, the asset of all the business being consciousness. Brilliant. I love your way of putting it. So we're investing our consciousness on the scarcity and the lack, which perpetuates the scarcity and the lack, because you're coming from limitation. Cause people might be going, okay, so what's the alternative? Well, the alternative is because there is a thing in the business that needs to be. What can be different, right?
There's an emergence, you know, is to, to see that you're, there's nothing solid to overcome or to be in scarcity of, but there is always emergence and the emergence of faster lead times or, or customer service responses is there. And if we move the balance sheet investment of consciousness to that, then that's going to create that. Yeah. So it's still addressing the business issue of.
Wait times, but it's coming from a very different point, but I think it's so nuanced is that we it's not just saying it differently going. Oh, yeah. Well, I do think it's a lot, but I'll put it in positive language for the meeting because it looks like I've read that book that, this is why it all comes back to what we think we are, solidity. Right. So it's the space, not the language. Oh, that's beautiful. You're right.
We can never be in lack or scarcity because there is infinite creative potential. There are infinite possibilities of thought, of, of, of seeing this. So you're not stuck with what that is with the wait times. And I have an interest, there's such an interesting real life that came out of my corporate as opposed to the coaching.
In, in real life, there was an issue where I, as head of HR, I was going to move our sort of benefits call service company, and so there were companies that were talking to us.
You'd that they wanted the business to go to and it was fascinating because one of the companies actually said to us they go Oh, we have the lowest wait time hold wait times your employees will be able to get to us and you know, all of them and And then there was another company that didn't talk about that So they talked about how they would, you know, uh, really listen and understand what the employee was calling about, and then that they would direct them properly,
and that they had people very experienced who could help them resolve the problem. And, um, so we were debating amongst ourselves, like, what do we want, and this company looks like it's a lower cost, and this other, right, but I think the service would be, like, And then, uh, somebody said, why don't we just call the number to see? Like, we could call one number and then we could call the other number.
So we called this number and, um, there was a push one for this and a press two for that and a press six for this and it confused us a few points and we had to start over because we got into the wrong place. Anyway, and then ultimately we got to somebody and then within Two rings or something, they answered. And then, and then we called the other company, and a person answered. It's just like, right, right away.
And I remember this whole thing of like, well, wait a minute, but these guys said that they do a 12 second. Like that they will be answered in 12 seconds that took us a long time. Why are they telling us it's 12 seconds? And then what happened is, you know, of course, we find out they're talking from the point of your last push button. They will answer the phone in this time.
Now, listen, everyone is well intentioned and you can just imagine these meetings in that company where they had a problem, which was wait times. And they solved it, and somebody sold them, technology people, the IT department, the other group, and they sold the decision makers on a solution that would solve the problem, which they did solve the problem, just totally missed the point, but they did solve the problem.
And now they're all in there wondering why, although the wait times have been reduced. Why they're still complaints and, and the other one was, and they did call to ask us is why we didn't select them and we selected another company. They were so confused in terms of we selected this other company and they couldn't understand because they met all our needs and missed the point. And that, that's, that's the, that's such an interesting example.
The power is in the intention and the space rather than in the, the sort of on paper before. Oh yeah, we've got a problem. We solved it with it, but no, you haven't because, because of the focus in the wrong place. Yeah. So and if we go wider and we see that from that space of where you invest your consciousness. That the nonlinear change transformation that can happen is really interesting.
And that's what I find fascinating is that this sort of, as I was mentioning earlier about this belief that everything has to be linear, linear, linear. Well, that won't change until that changes because that's again, you've solidified the situation and you've come up with. what looks like a, you know, a universal rule about that situation. Oh, you can't turn a business around in that or in a difficult market. You can't grow margins or what it is. Right.
But again, that's because you solidified that. And then you're trying to solve that rather than come at it from a very different perspective without the limitation. Yeah. Yeah. It's, what you have your attention on, that, that is, it's kind of, the way to describe is, it's, it's not about resolving or fixing this problem. It's about creating what you want instead.
And so I mean, I, I, this one, um, because it involves people sometimes when I'm coaching and the leader has an issue with a colleague, uh, boss, whatever it is like, uh, , they're never supporting my ideas or they're, you know, cutting them down or something like that, or, or I can't, I can't move forward. My boss isn't trusting me. They micromanage their one. They won't let me make decisions like this becomes an area, right?
And um, what's missing in that again, mesmerized by a problem, which is happening. Right? Well, I keep getting questions about this. So now I have to respond and do work and analysis and it's not productive. It's not actually accomplishing anything. And so typical coaching and, and sometimes what they're looking for is, so what can I do about this? You know, how can I have courageous conversation? Yeah. And fierce, fierce conversations, courageous conversations.
Well, hang on a second, that sounds frightening. Why would you need a courageous conversation? Why would you need a fierce conversation? Well, because this is really bad and it's got to be stopped, right? And you can notice the construction. In your own mind of such a problem that it would require such force in opposition in order to get this to stop. Right. So that would be an incremental ism of let me negotiate and let me make changes.
And have the conversation with my boss so that we can alter and change and, you know, go through and step by step is like get to this new future that we desire, but it's all kind of like nonsense and it's all petuation or hypnotism into the, into the existing reality. Yeah. Whereas. And when I've spoken with them around looking at this dynamic that is just happening, which is in a, in other words, this relationship is a dance with movements, yeah, there's a movement happening.
And so your boss doesn't micromanage. There's just something you do, which invites it. There's a way of being that invites more scrutiny, right? It's got nothing to do with your boss. If that were, and by the way, and this is true, and, but people misinterpret, I say, hang on a second, but how many direct employees does your CEO have? How many reports? Well, they've got IT reporting, they've got HR reporting, they got finance reporting and on and on. So he's micromanaging all these areas?
Oh, no, no. He never says anything to the thing. She never, uh, questions what IT brings forward. She, uh, so, what is this, multiple personalities? Her thoughts pass. What, so the, the, the idea of micromanaging does not exist inherent in another human being. It is what you're describing is the dynamic of a relationship of an interaction. And so that you're creating. You are co creating together. So what is it you do that invites that kind of scrutiny?
How do you be in the way you work that invites that level of supervision? And it's interesting because what props up the illusion is they might say, yeah, but the old boss never used to do that with me. Yes. Yes. Right. So they would go, it must be the boss because in my old role, um, that didn't happen, so it's not, it can't be me because I, they didn't micromanage me.
Yes. Yes. And that props up the illusion and forgetting that each activity of consciousness that has the individual separateness of looking like two people is a fresh different thing. So it may be that in the dance with the last person, it was just different. It doesn't mean anything about you or them. Right. Yeah. And I think then.
If I can segue the conversation into, into the other part of the, the, the exploration that we're pointing people to, whether it's over or covert, um, You said, you said a five minutes ago, Oh, I want to have some courageous conversations with my boss about their micromanaging. Now, the really powerful part of that conversation for me is the very first
word letter I . Now, normally your coach would concentrate on what do you mean by courageous and what do you mean by the conversation and what do you mean by micromanaging, you know, right. We get into that. I go, no, no, no, no, no. Let's have a look at the first word. And people are like. Sorry, that's the most innocuous word of the whole sentence. Surely you're good. No, that is the most powerful word of the whole sentence. 'cause what do you mean I now riff off that?
Yeah, because that's the beginning of all of that. What looks like a relationship, um, is further identification of who I am. In other words, um, the way I know myself is relative to all things. , Simply by noticing I, relative to this computer, am distinct. See how I get to know who I am, how I get to see who I am, is distinct from that. Yeah. This is how I come into existence.
is really relative to all things and I, relative to a boss that is like that, I, relative to an organization that is like that, identify what this is. See, my organization is like, you know, they don't, they don't value people. See, I do. They don't. They make these decisions. It's all about money for them. Do you notice how my identity of that I gets stronger and reinforced relative to all things? Relative.
And, and that's what, see that relativity gets, and this is so interesting that I haven't really heard you say that before because it's, I think it's interesting because that relativity gets. Reinforced as we go into the world, let's call it that, as we go from a child to a teenager to an adult, that relative, oh there's, there's them and there's me and there's this and this. Now, the, the one universal thing that we are, which is unrelative. I don't know what the opposite word is. Yes, yes.
Yeah. Is actually the truth. Right. And that's, you know, the one desire we all have, which is why we all come to coaching, but we'll come back to that. So, is to see that, yes, although I've created this relativity to objects. the others, the apparent outside world, there's me and there's my tree or my bus or my hand. That's all apparent. That, that's all apparent.
And what is really there before that, you could call it the big I or whatever you want to call it, that the, the, the true, the true I, um, the true self is something universal. And indivisible apart from an appearance. And when I recognize that, or when there's a dissolution, you know, dissolving and that becomes apparent rather than I recognize it, that is where the magic. I think is to be seen and recognized now. I've just explained that in a fairly kind of heady way.
Um so how do you say that? Because, well, you know, and, and yeah, we'll use another metaphor. I think everyone will get it. But this idea of , I am aware.. So it's kind of hard to, it's in indisputable. We, we might even say, what's the difference between me and a dead body? Mm-Hmm. . It's consciousness. Mm-Hmm. . The difference between me and a dead body is consciousness. This is how close consciousness. What, what is consciousness? This is how close it is to you. It's not.
It's inseparable, right? So, in other words, if you just calm down a minute and just relax, what you'll notice is you're breathing. So, and then the question is, are you doing that? Are you breathing? It seems like there's some energy or movement that breathes you. And that's, and, and if you were to cut your finger without doing anything, In other words, just put a band aid on it, don't do anything, that would heal itself. Mm hmm.
So, there is some kind of an energy, and it is moving, and that energy is very intelligent. We might say it's infinitely intelligent. Mm hmm. And that energy has awareness. It is like, not an inert intelligence, like you'd get on a spreadsheet. Or in list of facts. It's not inert. It is alive. And the, the, the difference between inert and alive is movement. The difference is awareness. It is aware of itself. It is aware of itself. And then you look and you say, so, okay, I get it.
So I'm consciousness. I have consciousness. Funny right that word I have consciousness. This, this is my consciousness. Right, so now you can see of me. It is me. This is me, my consciousness. I don't know about your consciousness, but I can tell you about mine, right? Which, which you can see why that seems reasonable. I mean, I get it. It seems reasonable. It's like I'm conscious. It's my consciousness.
I don't know about them and what their consciousness is and what they're doing with it, but I see what mine is. It certainly appears that way. But that's no more. True than the office I'm sitting in. And what, because when you say, I'm here in this office, and if you said, okay, but what is that? Well, it's in my house. It's this office in my house. If we really got into it about like, what is an office? What is this?
Pretty soon we'd have to get to like really the value of it and the usability of it. Mm-Hmm. is space. This is the space. And now watch how funny it is. It's my space. This is my space, right? Oh, so, but if you look, there is something called space and space is infinite and eternal. It is only space. What you are referring to as this is my space. Is it not the same space that is that? So when you say this is my consciousness, how did you separate it exactly from all consciousness?
Well, I poke walls up. That's how I do it. That's how I know it's my space. And I have a piece of paper saying I own this space. Yes, a legal deed. Here's the funny thing. Notice what I just said. How you got this to be your space. Is by limitation. That's how it becomes my space. I limit the space. I put the walls up, I declare it mine, and it is from that limitation that I get to experience what is my space.
And all suffering comes from that as well, from your misunderstanding that this is your space versus your, your potential and possibility. It's a lovely way of saying it. And I was just thinking as you're talking, you know, we're sitting here and. January, 2024, when there's a couple of wars going on about lines on the map, right? That's my country. That's your country. Right. And there's no physical wall in that, but there's a line on the map, which has gone, well, this is ours. This is yours.
It's, it's, it's a limitation. So you imagine, yeah. I mean, I'm an alien, a Martian would go, what are you doing? Right. So it's. Not only does it create problems in the, in the world of form, it's, it's a great metaphor for how we see what we are in I being an entity that has a property of consciousness and I'm conscious of the world, you know, panpsychism would say that, you know, that everything has consciousness and that's limitation. That is limitation.
Imagine that playing out in organizations. And that, and that solidity that we, you know, we talked about solidifying earlier, how we solidify things, that we can only solidify something if we thingify it into not being an expansive space, but being a thing. And by definition, by thingifying, we're putting limit.
Now, you know, occasion is a utilitarian usefulness of putting a discrete concept around something, because it allows us to navigate and, at a traffic light, know that the red light means stop and that, you know. So, there's a utilitarian usefulness of having things defined. But remembering that definition is there as a, uh, a rule of the game of life, not of being.
That, that to me is, is, is a crucial distinction because it, it's like I say, tennis would be less fun if there were no nets or lines, right? Because the fun comes in trying to get it over the net and in the line, right? So same in the game of life, we have utilitarian use for. limitation, but we confuse that with creation and being. Oh, yeah. I think your metaphor is a good one, because in the absence of limitation, we could never enjoy that game.
Yeah. We would never be able to enjoy that game. But notice the wording we used, and I think in our pre conversation, you brought this up as well, is that, um, notice we're not confused. In other words, we made up this stuff about tennis, and how you can't cross a line, and how you can't, you know, jump over a net. Like, we made this all up. We completely, entirely, limited ourselves in a total self limitation for the purpose of enjoying ourselves.
Yeah. Is to enjoy ourselves and to express and find within us more and more of the possibility that is who we really are. And to express that possibility through that game and through those limitations in an expansion of what's available to be enjoyed. in, within that limitation. So, there's something about when we can hold the limitation not separate from the truth. There are no rules. There is no such thing. That line doesn't exist. This isn't real, right?
But when we can hold the form within the truth, then enjoyment becomes possible when we're lost in our own delusions. Yeah, then that is how war becomes possible. Yes. And it's the, it's the, it's absolutely, it's the loss in the, it's being mesmerized or hypnotized as you said in the delusion, it's. What we're never going to debunk the illusion, but we can see it and recognize it. So a dream is scary. If you didn't know what a dream was, what a dream was right now, TV show would be scary.
If you didn't understand or virtual reality or whatever, but, but we kind of know. So it's, it's, it's seeing that. And then I think the other part of this, which we, again, we can segue into because it's such a rich conversation and I love this part of the conversation is what makes out harder.
Is when we think that is down to us, right, to, to, to control or do that, that what is limiting, what isn't, and you said earlier about, you know, when we were letting the, the finger just heals, it just heals, you know, that that is just coming through us as an intelligent energy you talked about now that includes that intelligent energy includes everything that appears to us In perception and thought and the eye that looks like it makes a decision.
So we're going into the free will piece here, which I love. Um, is, is which eye is that? So we're going back to this eye again, that says things that I'm going to have a authentic conversation. I'm going to have, you know, which eye is that? Because we've been taught from a young age that that eye is me, boundaried, limited entity, me, and the choices that appear are my choices.
And there's, if we are being lived, which we pointed to, there's breathing happening, there's healing happening, there's digesting of food happening, there's thought happening, there's choice happening. There's no chooser separate to the system. Right. That, that, here's what has no choice. Let's say this way.
Sydney Banks, um, said I don't know if he was, uh, repeating something or if it was, uh, said, um, but Sidney Banks makes the statement, there is only one will and that is the will of God, um, and Sidney Banks often spoke about free will, free will.
You're using your free will, and especially in, in one talk, he talks for a bit about free will, and I, and, and you follow and you go, wow, awesome, free will, etc. And then the next statement he makes says, And there is only really one will, and that is the will of God, right? And, you know, we threw in the word God here, but I hope nobody gets freaked out, right? Just call it the system, or whatever you like. Universal intelligence, all things, the system. So, what is that?
Well, in an organization, in an organization, especially, like, why are there 500, 000 people as part of this organization, right? There is something going on like some energy, some movements, some calling, some desire, something's going on. There are 500, 000 people wrapped up in this, whatever this is. Right? So what is that?
There is a movement, a desire toward something, an, an, an offering of some, and it can be noble purpose or whatever, but underneath it, there's some kind of intention, some sort of, um, uh, yeah, aspiration. It is an imagining of, of, of something that can be experienced, that can be in the world.
That we've never experienced before this is this is the if if it's infinite right if consciousness is infinite It's a that means it implies expanding and if it implies Expanding that means that the truth is beyond our experience The truth is beyond anything we've ever experienced the truth is beyond that There is a movement of this consciousness toward experiencing beyond what has been experienced so far. Mm hmm.
And, uh, um, and that we could call the only will there is, is to experience itself in more and more, in infinite ways. That expansion of consciousness as it becomes more of itself. as it expresses and experiences more of itself. That is always an expansion. So the only will there is, the only movement there actually is, is a movement toward know thyself and know thyself more deeply. That is the only calling that actually exists.
And so what we feel as desire What we feel as is, I want a bigger job. I want, I want to make my company larger, right? All of that is so that I can know myself more fully. Cause, cause there is a calling of who I really am that is far more than I think. That is far more than I'm currently experiencing. And the way it is experienced by this limited I, is in the desire for more, for more experience of myself.
Most of us don't put it that way, and for most of us it isn't experienced that way, it isn't felt that way. Um, the, the illusion, delusion, is that I am trying to experience or acquire in order to add to what I have so that I can then be bigger. But the truth is, You already are. You already are that. And so that is why the desire is to grab that stuff and bring it over here. But if you realized you already are that, you would then come into the world being that. And that is your true power.
Because from being that, you would, as an organization or as a, as a leader, is you would actually be now expressing this experience. Expanded version, this expanded realization of who you are and in the expression of that it would manifest and be created in the world in that what was before a vision or not real would suddenly be the reality that there is. And that actually, listeners, I'm not sure whether you've tracked this, but fits in so beautifully to what we were saying earlier.
About the not coming from solidity and lack, right? So because it's about recognizing what you are, and I think that the delusion illusion is that the, let's call it the, the, the apparent avatar me goes into the world needing to have, uh, desires to, to achieve relationships to attain.
And that is, it looks like that's what we're talking about here, but we're not, we're talking about a completely different way around actually, although they turn up in the same way at one level, cause they're about. , expressing life more richly or, or seeking or going to, manifesting or whatever, but actually what's become clearer and clearer over the years is you can come at that from two very different places.
And it's very, it can be a confusing because you either come at that from little avatar, me seeking in the world to try and get more to be okay. Which is coming from finiteness, kind of knowing there's more, but thinking I need more to be okay. And that actually is coming from scarcity and therefore resistance and therefore that hits all sorts of treacle like stuff where you get suffering and uh and frustration.
But then what we're actually talking about is when you recognize what we truly are at big I, if you want to call it that, that we already are expansiveness. But the form of that. Is in, acquisition and achievement and experience of it. Yeah, the irony or maybe the paradox is that when we are at our most resourceful and emergent. It's when the self, the avatar self has dissolved and isn't seeking. So, so when we're in a loving relationship, what we're getting is the dissolution of avatar self.
Cause we're experiencing the expansive, the same in an organization that's got a beautiful vibe to it. Those 500, 000 people are losing the avatar self. I'm becoming part of the collective. Um, yeah, it's such a clear yet confusion one until you see it. Well, and you know what, that you just, that maybe the, the, the wording that when we say, what's the difference between, you know, three years ago, four years ago, when we had our conversations that would be, this is so clear to me that this.
Expansion, becoming more of yourself, more of who you truly are, cannot be achieved. That's maybe what's clear to me. That cannot be achieved. It is only something that can be allowed. It cannot be achieved. And this energetic difference is huge. It is like, because what's confusing is. If you, I would say, mostly, if you watched externally to someone who is in a state of allowing themselves to be more and more and more of who they really are.
We would look at them and call them amazing, like, look at what they're doing, look at what they're, uh, doing in the world. So they wouldn't be, you know, sitting still, they'd be an expression, which is confusing. Because then when we look at someone who is ambitious and, and striving. We would see a lot of activity and then it looks like exactly the same thing. It looks like exactly the same thing. One has an effort, an exhaustion of personal energy. There.
The other one has a disillusion, as you said, A disillusion of personal delusion, . And an allowing of infinite energy. Of an infinite energy, which now moves them. They are moved. Organizations are moved. They are moved, right? You have now people moved in a direction of becoming more of the possibility that they envision. They are, they are expressing, fulfilling more of the truth of that possibility into an experience, into a way that it can be experienced. So that can never be achieved.
It can only be allowed, and it is a subtle but massive difference. I think that's a nice linguistic difference to point to the, let's call it energetic difference, the space difference. And that to me has become clearer and clearer and clearer over the years. I think you're absolutely right. And it's so, it's one of those ones that you can listen to it and go. Oh, yeah, yeah, I sort of know what you mean. You've got to turn up in a good space. Yeah. I got to be in a good mood.
No, no, no, no. It's way, way more than that. It's, it's, it's chalk and cheese to that. But until you kind of see more of it, even though we intuitively all do anyway, um, it, it might not look so blatantly different, but when you talk to leaders who have, who are quite experienced and they can tell the difference a lot more because they've probably been in both. And they'll call it the secret they have. Yeah. And they'll call it the secret source.
And then the question is how, because there's a lot of confusion around it. How do I have more of that secret source? And then accidentally, today's society is brilliant at trying to reverse engineer that in a way that gives you a mimic of it, right? Yes. A thousand tools or techniques or the OR, here's how, but, but truly. For me, for my mind, and I think you're probably on the same page of this, Dominic, the way for that to be revealed, to appear is by seeing what we truly are and aren't.
Right. So it's going back to that. And I think you said something really neat earlier, is there's actually only one reason why people come to coaching. They don't, they don't know this, right? It's not what they'd write on the form. Um, it is because at one level we all know that that expansiveness is what we are and that's what we're seeking. But you said, but it dresses itself up as a thousand things. Right. In the world of form.
And our job is to not get distracted by the thousand things, although to, to absolutely, uh, hold space for them, you know, to, to be articulated, but to see actually what it's all about is the same thing. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's brilliant. See, that movement, that energy is, um, is, is toward more expression, realization of who I really am, more experience of who I really am.
And to your point, people come to coaching as, Yeah, I want, I want to be in a bigger role, or I want to be able to, um, you know, transform, uh, my organization so that we're at the next level or so that we can, you know, IPO or you know, whatever they come. So it looks like that, but what they're wanting is, it could be stated like this. I feel a desire to be that being that would make that kind of a difference, have that kind of an impact. in the world. I can sense a desire to be that.
It is a desire to be. The reason it cannot be achieved, it can only be allowed, is because the you, the I, that would want to achieve that state of being is not that state of being. So what you're wanting, you, what you are wanting to experience. is not something you need to create that doesn't already exist. That would be so hard, to create something that doesn't exist. But what you feel as desire is not for something that doesn't exist.
But you're feeling a desire and you could feel that feeling of being that, of that beingness. And so it already does exist. Yeah. So, but why am I not experiencing it? Why am I not? Well, uh, I'm not like that. I'm not. So you're, it's like a self limitation. That's the limitation we talked about earlier, right? Yeah. It's, it's, cause you're right. There's a recognition of what it is. For you to know you haven't got it, in a way. Yeah. Right? Well said. Well said.
And therefore, when we do achieve that. a success or an achievement or, uh, uh, something, there is a temporary lack of seeking and that's the, what we think is comes from the thing. So let's say we get the promotion or we had the loving relationship for an evening. Right. Now that isn't because anything changed in the outside world about your new job title or about the fact your wife said, well done, or you have a lovely evening. It was because the self that was.
Seeking what it truly was ceased. Right. And that created the spaciousness for you to be what you already were, but you were in the limitation. So the finiteness dropped away temporarily until we create the next one, which is when I'm promoted to CEO, I want to be. Yeah, I want to have a bigger company. So we get back on the rat race again.
Um, but one word I want to tap into, then I realize we probably need to wrap this up with a bow, but maybe this is a semantic pedantic red herring, but you use the word you can't achieve it. You can allow. I'm going to challenge the word allow and say, well, why did, to me, it's not an allow because that sounds like advocacy or agency. To me, it's a reveal. Say a bit more about your allow word. Yeah. And by the way, it's so tricky. Let me say it like this.
It can't, if I say it, it cannot be achieved. It can only be allowed. It can only be allowed. So now I've removed you allowing it. You've got an agent in there of allowing. Well, well, it can only be allowed and it is allowed. It is always allowed in the absence of resistance. So the agent, the agent only has A freedom of resistance. The only freedom you have is one of resistance. And by the way, that is necessarily so, otherwise there's no agent, and without an agent there's no experience.
That is necessarily so, unless I put these walls up, I don't have my space, right? And once I don't have my space, there is no experience in my space. So, you're, the agent has. It's agency for resistance, which causes experience of an agent, of the one. But if you want to expand the knowing of that I, that can only be allowed by the dropping of a resistance, which allows an expansion. But. You will always, I say it like this, however, you will always be far more than you think.
So, I don't care how much resistance you drop, you will never be all that you need. You'll never reach the end of that, ever. Yeah, you're not going to run out. Who you really are is beyond what you think and forever shall be. It is an infinite expanding potential. You will never experience all that you are. You will never come to the end of it. Your whole existence is one of either resisting or in the absence of resistance, allowing an expansion.
I'm really glad I asked that question about allowing and it may not be useful for anyone else in the podcast, but what I heard on there was a really nice distinction because I'll try and say it in my words and you tell me if I've got it right. The world that we experience, the world of form, humanity, humanness, there is an individuated appearance of a subject object relationship, turns up.
And there is an agent of experiencing, an agent of experiencing, which by definition is a limitation of infiniteness. So all that experiencer can do is be a limitation, which is brilliant. It is beautiful. It allows us to have the richness of being right. Uh, being, being human, which is lovely. We wouldn't trade it for the world. Uh, not that I can. So the reason you would use the word allowing is it's paying respect and homage to the fact of experience.
Because if you didn't put that perceived. Um, experience therein, then there's just oneness and, no individuation, no actual human experience. So that, that's what you're sort of respecting by set using the word allow and, uh, that, that makes sense at that level. But I think, and, and it is essential to respect, yeah, let's take this to the middle East.
Peace can never be achieved, but it can be allowed in the Middle East, and it will never be achieved, no matter how many smart people start working on achieving peace in the Middle East. And do you know what it would take to allow peace in the Middle East? is to stop trying to achieve it. Mm hmm. Stop trying to achieve it. Here's the truth. Were it not for all of our bullshit, peace would be allowed. Yeah. Peace would be allowed. . So I honor this human experience. Yeah, nice, nice, yeah.
And I think that's a really neat way of putting it. And I think what you're not saying by the word allow, is, um, you're not trying to reinforce the illusion we have that, uh, there is a, Separate me to separate to consciousness and the world, my consciousness that needs to allow this stuff and if it and you know, you're not using allow like that. You're you're not giving it volition. Um, to have a free will that is separate to the one. Well, so that piece is already its true nature.
And that piece would be there were it not for resistance to it. So, and why is there resistance to it? Because of its true nature, and its true nature is an ability and a freedom to focus and experience anything. You are so free, your freedom in the nature of your freedom is so free you can experience bondage. It is so free you can experience conflict. There is, because if you could not experience. Anything other than one thing, there is no freedom. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. There is no freedom.
You can experience the multiplicity of psychological objects, right? That's available. You experience the one thing there is in the freedom to experience it in infinite ways. And infinite ways is always, there is nothing off limits. Yeah. And if you, if you were to contain that only to the experience of true nature, that would imply a bondage within it. That would imply no freedom within it because there's no choice. And without choice, there can be no freedom.
Without choice, there is no freedom. Yeah. The experience of the universe has no limit. That war is available. It is offered. It is possible. And you cannot eliminate the possibility of that experience. It's available. And the true nature is one of peace.
And the minute you move out of the resistance of true nature, which you are free to experience, You will fall into your true nature and, and you will rise back out of it and rise back out of it, expanding your own consciousness into greater and greater questions. How do you experience peace when someone else wants something you do not want? Well thousands of years ago, we knew how to do it, kill them. Mm hmm. And thousands of years later, that's still the best idea.
That still seems the best idea, that the only way I experience peace is by eliminating all opposition to it. And that's, that's an idea. It is an experience. There may be a bigger idea. There may be something beyond what you've thought so far, beyond what we've all thought so far, that's available to us. That we can experience. That doesn't require that. But you, you've got to be willing to drop the bullshit around what you insist is the only way that that can be experienced.
I experience my abundance by taking from others. From the scarce world and limited world we have. It's the way you get to be the richest person in the world. That could be bullshit. Right? Ha ha. Hmm. Yeah. Let's mute on that one. What a. Rich conversation. I'm just, I'm wondering, uh, Dominic, whether the last 20 minutes, you and I just had a lovely conversation with anyone else. We'll, we'll, uh, enjoyed it as much as we did. Cause there's a lot of nuance in what we're saying here.
And we covered a lot of ground, but just for the sake of time, uh, we probably need to bring it to an end. And we're going to trust that they enjoyed it as much as we did. We couldn't have had that much enjoyment without it resonating with others. It's rich and nuanced, and there's a lot in that, and it's one that I will listen to a few times. But, uh, so to bring things to a close, is there anything you want to just wrap up and put a bow on? I mean, we've covered a lot of lovely ground.
Anything occur to you in this moment where you just want to kind of Double down on something or, but maybe the only thing is to say is the, is the, um, word awe. Come into the world, into your life with awe. Awe brings wonder, right? So wherever you have a problem, bring wonder to it. It may not be what you think. In fact, what you think is what your problem is.
Yeah. And I think it's what we said right at the beginning is, with the shackles of our own thinking, and if we can see beyond that, and well, and there's always available to do that. Right. We're never going to run out of, Oh, no, I've, I've hit the edge because by definition thought is finite. Every thought is limitation. And therefore, if you think it, it's no longer infinite. So, yeah, uh, the, the solid, the apparent solidity of perception, thought, and sensation.
And to see the liberation that lies behind that. And that's what we're all looking. That's what we're all, we all are, but we got this self imposed limitation. Um, not that we can do anything about that at a free will level, because that's just.
, it just is the ability to see through that opens up this amazing thing, which you and I get to talk about every day with our clients, our clients get to experience, and it's why people come to transformational coaching that that's why they don't know that. They come with the hundred things that have been mesmerized, as you say, hypnotized into see, but then they realize, ah, and then when they taste that, they're like, aha, there we go. Off we go. There's the magic.
And that's why the conversation never sort of runs out because it's always, there's always more to see that it's infinite and it's not like, well, I've done that now. I mean, that's why I've been curious in this for 25 years and it just seems it's as fresh now as it was 25 years ago, probably more, you'd think, well, I would have run out now. stuff to explore. No, I'm just getting started. Um, so, Dominic, it's been three years. Uh, let's not wait three years again.
Yes. Um, I feel like we could have one in three minutes time. Thank you so much for giving us some of your, , valuable time. And I know you're always open to, to take questions or comments from listeners. Right. Yeah. You're on, you're on a lot on Facebook, you're on LinkedIn, anywhere else people can get you. Yeah, my name, Dominic Scafiddi, right, dot com, my website, I'm on YouTube as well with lots of talks and conversations and all of that.
And, uh, yeah, and there's links there to my corporate website, which is hrpossibilities. com. But, uh, yeah, I would recommend listeners, if you haven't already. Which you probably have, uh, but new listeners to the show, check out Dominic's stuff. It is really beautiful food for thought, highly articulate, um, really nicely talked about and um, you, you, you know, listen to it four or five times, you'll, you'll get loads out of it.
So, uh, Dominic, thank you so much for coming on and the conversation and listeners, have fun being curious until next time. If you enjoyed listening to this podcast and want to know more, check out our website, quality of mind.biz, and also feel free to reach out and leave us a review or a comment. Until next time, have fun being curious.