¶ Intro / Opening
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¶ Understanding Putin's Grand Image and Current Crisis
One of the really revealing stories about Vladimir Putin is back in two thousand eight, Alexei Vinny Diktav, very prominent journalist, very well connected. uh was talking to Putin and Putin said, Well what will the history books say about me? And Vinediktav, who himself was actually a former history teacher,
Started to reel off all the achievements of the Putin government. And Putin said rather disappointedly, Is that it? And then a few years later, in the aftermath of the annexation of Crimea, Vinedikov was once again in the Kremlin and Putin said, Well what will they say now? And Vincent said, What will who say? Like, Well the history books. So clearly Putin sees himself as this sort of world historical figure.
In this series, we're trying to understand Vladimir Putin. We've looked at where he came from, how he built his power, at the big turning points in his life and leadership. Today, we're going to talk about how he's handled the biggest crisis he's faced so far and try to work out what he might do next. The past few days have seen extraordinary events in Russia. On Friday, armed mercenaries began a march on Moscow. On Saturday,
They got to within around a hundred miles of the capital before their leader, Evgeny Prigozin, ordered them to stop and agreed to leave for Belarus. Vladimir Putin praised the people of Russia for their national unity, And claimed he had averted disaster. But how badly is his authority shaken and can it be recovered?
Владимир Владимирович Путин. Впервые за всю историю нашего государства.
The leadership of President Putin offers not just hope for Russia, but also for the wider world. I wouldn't have invited him to my ranch if I didn't trust him. I was able to get a sense of his soul.
Was it KGBA?
By definition, he doesn't have a soul.
Now we see him for what he is. A bloodstained aggressor who believes in imperial.
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I'm Johnny Diamond, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Putin. To help us make sense of the man everyone is still trying to figure out. I'm joined by some of those who've been studying and scrutinizing the man for years.
My name is Andrey Soldatov. I'm a Russian investigative journalist now in exile in London on the wanted list of the Russian government since 2022.
My name is Polina Ivanova. I'm a foreign correspondent for the Financial Times covering Russia and its invasion of Ukraine.
My name's Owen Matthews. Um I was a journalist for Newsweek magazine for twenty five years, including as Moscow bureau chief, and I've just written a book called Overreach the Inside Story of Putin's war on Ukraine.
Welcome Paulina. Welcome back to Andre and Owen. Now in previous episodes we've been looking back, back at those moments in the history books, but as we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon The situation in Russia is still unfolding. I want to ask each of you, and I want you to answer briefly, do you believe you understand what is going on? Paulina.
Ha ha ha.
Uh look, yes and no. I mean in some way we were sort of seeing it all happen with hindsight it all makes a lot of sense. We've seen Prigozin and the army, Evgeny Prigozin, the head of Wagner and the army go head to head for ages, but when you actually see tanks riding towards Moscow, I mean that's something you can't even imagine.
Owen?
I was completely amazed that Pregorzon actually did it. Do I understand what's going on in the in the Kremlin? Well, we have the outline We see, you know, the echoes of those discussions that are going on inside that black box, which is Putin and his uh inner circle. as the Russians put it, Razborki, the uh conflicts inside the elite that led to Brigorzhan's revolt. Um, I think that's uh essentially unknowable, unfortunately.
Well, I love to think that I understand at least some elements of what happened, but to be honest, my topic, the Russian security services, well, they still surprised me a lot during this crisis.
All through the series we have talked about stories and the stories that partly Russia tells about itself, but particularly that Putin tells about himself, about Russia, and about the West as well. And a lot of these stories either being untrue or embellished or changed, but all of them serving a purpose.
¶ Putin's Narrative Shattered, Authority Weakened
Is it possible to weave what happened on Saturday into those stories, or does it just shatter the narrative that has been presented to us?
I think it's a completely new story, to be honest, because the way Putin reacted to this, while it is absolutely different from what we expected him to do given the previous twenty years. Uh we all know that Putin is absolutely paranoid about his cherished political stability. And the way he usually responds to any threat to his political stability is to punish people. Even his uh closest allies
I remember var very well that twenty years ago, almost twenty years ago, in two thousand and four when the small republic of Engushetia fall to Chechen militants for two days. They invaded and they took control this region for two days. Immediately, the same day, basically, the same day, Putin fired several FSB generals, just like that, because he felt really, really frightened.
And I expect well the same thing happened to now. But instead Putin decided to well to award his security services, which did absolutely nothing. And I think his most favorite thing completely failed and failed the
internal intelligence.
The internal intelligence service. They issued a statement calling the Wagner soldiers to go and arrest their leader. I mean, in Russia, you still have law enforcement and FSB and they have the right to conduct arrest, not some soldiers of Wagner. So they failed and nevertheless Putin decided not to punish men but to war.
Owen, what do you think about the narrative and its shattering? Is it important or is there a way in which you can pick up the pieces if you're Putin and and turn this into a story that benefits you?
One of the most extraordinary things about uh Putin's emergency address on Saturday morning as the coup, the mutiny unfolded. was he appealed to national unity. And um I I've been following him for twenty three years, as has Andre and and Paulina. I mean the yeah, I've never heard him talk about national unity and the need to preserve it because he's never had to.
So in in this sense it's actually a sort of no win situation for Putin. He I think would prefer to play it down, to pretend it never happened. But at the same time he's under pressure to actually say something and do something. But heads did not roll. The the FSB did not do their job. The Wagner fighters were not resisted. And uh most crucially and staggeringly, stunningly, the m people or
some people, hundreds of people on in Rostov on Don, came out to cheer Wagner as they as they were moved out of the city. And they treated Pregorzin like a rock star and you have crowds shouting Wagner, Wagner and Wagner's troops joy firing into the air. I mean and in in the centre of a Russian city. And when the police showed up, they were jeered by the crowd. There was there they shouted Pazor, Pazor, shame, shame and pelted them with uh with with debris. So
I mean it's this is an absolutely shocking scene for Putin and it completely shatters several narratives. In fact, firstly the narrative that Putin is the the ultimate guarantor of the security of Russians. He utterly failed in doing that. And furthermore, that Putin is this sort of universally popular, invincible leader, because when a rebel general shows up in a city of over a million people, takes it over with barely a shot fired.
and the people cheer him. I mean, that is shows an extraordinary fragility in what we had hitherto assumed was, you know, a pretty solid of structure of support for Putin. You know, clearly that's not the case and that's profoundly worrying. And what could Putin possibly say? He's handed out some medals, including to Sergei Shoigu, ironically.
who was in fact the proximate cause of this mutiny. He's handed out some medals, you know, uh to reward soldiers for averting civil war, which is ridiculous and looks looks uh profoundly weak.
¶ Kremlin Confusion and Prigozhin's Ascent
Wladimir Putin gave a speech on Monday night and People were being sort of warmed up for the speech in a certain way, and then afterwards there was a rather different reaction. What was going on there as far as what Vladimir Putin was going to say, what it was going to mean?
It was chaos. It felt like everybody had gone completely off script and or the s the script hadn't been written yet or was being rewritten on the go. There was a an announcement that Putin would do a speech in the evening, uh late at night already, Moscow time, um, towards uh ten PM. after yet another chaotic day and we were briefed that
Uh it would be a speech that would be definitive for the history of Russia. You know, this was really going to be a big deal. And that came from the Kremlin press secretary. It was reported in Interface, which is the state news agency. It was put out across uh Russian state TV channels. and this community of what we call the Zed bloggers. So the people who are kind of very pro war, hyper nationalistic.
really uh kind of aggressively m against Ukraine started getting really hyped up and saying this is gonna be an extraordinary speech by Putin and then Putin comes on air, says a few things that he's already said. The speech lasts very unusually for Putin all of six minutes, and it appears almost abruptly cut short and then it goes back to normal programming. And you can just see
All the Z bloggers reacting saying, uh wait, hold up, there must be more coming. Surely, surely something's about to be said. That was a letdown and this kind of thing. Bubbles seemed to have completely burst. And then afterwards the Kremlin press secretary actually said that. his own statement that this would be a momentous speech was actually a fake that was put out on telegram and was a lie, which uh is really one way to kind of try and crawl that one back.
Um so you can only imagine what kind of uh scramble was happening behind the scenes at that time. And a lot of members of the elite stayed very noticeably silent on Saturday, not knowing what to do or what to say and I would point to the case of Margarita Simanian, the editor of Russia Today, who is very well known and very outspoken and usually knows exactly what to say on every occasion, stayed absolutely silent on Saturday, reappeared
maybe twenty four hours after the coup, with a statement saying, kind of lightly, that she was on a Volga cruise, a cruise along the Volga River, and uh didn't really notice what was happening, but now has an opinion that she can share. So uh that highly uh unbelievable statement uh just goes to show how everybody was kind of knocked a bit speechless and didn't know what the Kremlin script was.
We have seen Andrea a rash of appearances by Vladimir Putin in the last, what, 92 hours, something like that period. Are you getting any feeling from people within Russia as to what their reaction is to those appearances?
Well it looks like the opinions are clearly divided. Lots of people in Moscow pretend to that that actually nothing happened and I think there is a lot of fear And ordinary people they just do not know what to say, what to think. But the I would say that the general feeling, especially in Moscow, is probably it's not the end. They are waiting for something else, they are waiting for the stage two.
And actually what we are getting today, what we are getting with all these uh strange well events in the Kremlin, it is a stage two and it's probably it's gonna well unfold for a period of time.
We have talked in previous episodes about one of the men at the centre of this, Evgeny Prigorzin, a man once known as Putin's chef. I mean, how much the creation of Vladimir Putin is Brigozhin?
I would say Brig Gorzen owes his fortune and his influence to his relationship with the Kremlin, but he was never a Kremlin insider in any sense. He's you know a criminal. He spent nine years in jail for violent assault from nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty nine. So and he's, you know, not the kind of person that Putin would ever admit to anything like the inner circle. So, you know, he's the cook. He's a former hot dog seller. Um he's self made man. He's, you know, deeply linked to
you know, the criminal underworld, as well as being a criminal himself, and is five feels himself entirely at home addressing prisoners. He's extraordinarily foul mouthed, although I have to it has to be admitted very articulate. and very hard hitting in his speeches. So but Pegorzin is not really a Putin insider. On on the other hand, he is a billionaire who has made his money through official contacts and contracts
to supply the Russian army. He was very useful to the Kremlin. He's been serially useful. He was the one that founded a troll farm in St. Petersburg that was uh instrumental in the various uh election hacking and social media influence campaign in twenty sixteen in the US presidential election. And uh most crucially he founded Wagner. Since two thousand fourteen, he's founded this group of fighters.
who have been very useful as a way of projecting Kremlin power in Central African African Republic, in in uh Libya, in Syria and so on. So a useful tool of the Kremlin, he's grown rich contacts there, but I don't think he's can be really described as a close Putin crony or insider in in a significant political sense.
¶ Prigozhin's Escalation and Military Complicity
And Paulina, is there a point? that you identify even with the benefit of that great thing, hindsight, where Wagner and Prigozhin become a threat to Putin.
The his rhetoric has been escalating and escalating, along with his power and his popularity. I mean he comes out into the open mm, sort of last year, he starts appearing'cause he's a shadowy character, we never really had that many pictures of him. He was always, as Owen says, this kind of underworld figure. And we start seeing him in the middle of last summer as Russia is struggling to maintain its invasion of Ukraine, popping up in prisons, recruiting convicts for Wagner.
and um after that he starts taking on more and more of a public role and you can see the support for him building because he's the sort of antithesis to the defence establishment, to the bureaucratic paper pushers who run the army, this kind of thing.
the people who he accuses of corruption and um being slow and making poor decision making. And he is this sort of cruel, efficient, brutal leader who is willing to, you know, get his soldiers to do anything and and, you know, commit horrific war crimes or to just send tens of thousands of them uh to the slaughter to achieve his goals, which the Russian public, especially the very pro war element of Russia, but the Partian public really get behind.
And that builds and builds, as does his conflict with the armed forces. And um at some point it starts looking like it's tipping over the edge. I just have this picture in my mind of a video Prigozhin recorded quite recently where he's standing over rows and rows and rows of corpses of Russian soldiers and he's sort of pointing a flashlight at them and uh
Talking about how Girasimov, the head of the army, Shoigu, the defence minister, are responsible for the deaths of all of these soldiers. And it starts. clearly going over a line. Something that I thought is zer very interesting from um Tuesday morning this recording a speech by the Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, who stepped in on the day of the insurrection as a sort of negotiating figure.
helping Putin resolve the situation, speaking directly to Prigoshin. Something Lukashenko said a few hours before us recording this is that Prygoshin wanted to speak to Putin. That was one of the th points of his insurrection, of his march on Moscow was that he wanted to actually get the president kind of get his ear, which is a big shift from a few months ago when we understand that Purgosh's contact with Putin was quite regular. So clearly there was some sort of split.
and Pragoshin was frustrated that Putin was taking his general side in this conflict and also not communicating with him. Putin was in some way procrastinating through the situation, and Pragoshin decided to march on Moscow.
Andre, as one example of the fog of war is the suggestion that this whole thing could have been a so called false flag operation, that this could have been set up somehow by masterminds in the Kremlin to try and bolster the authority of the Kremlin to try and pose some kind of threat around which people could rally. Do you buy any of it?
No, to be honest, I don't think it's a real thing, but what we sometimes Miss and I think we we are focusing very much on Pregosan and uh what kind of threat he poses to Putin but I think what is really important here is actually the reaction of uh some elements in the army. Because of course we don't have like a list of generals like showing they respect and support for pregotion publicly.
At the same time we see that in Rostok, which is, I d I just want to remind you, is a nervous center and a logistical hub of the Russian military effort in Ukraine. Nevertheless, uh they decided not stop prigozhan, they let them in and two highest level generals who actually are in charge of the war effort in Ukraine.
Yevkrov, the deputy minister of defense, and most importantly, uh the first deputy head of the Russian military intelligence, Alexeyev, who is in charge of uh the entire intelligence operation in Ukraine. They decided to remain in Rostov and to talk to Prigojan. Basically they agreed to become his hostages. It's absolutely incredible.
¶ Putin's Fragile Image and State Incompetence
You have all spent perhaps longer than is healthy looking at Vladimir Putin as an individual as well as as a leader and someone on the world stage. Well let me start with you, Owen. I want to hear from everyone though. What do you think the events of the weekend meant for Putin personally?
Well, we know that he is extremely thin skinned. He is extremely conscious of his image as a strong man. We should remember those famous shirtless photographs of him of Putin riding a horse in the taiga with his friend Shoigu, the Minister of Defence back in nineteen ninety seven. He he really cares a lot about his personal image as the macho tough and tough guy. And clearly this challenge uh to his authority has been d dramatic. I think he is clearly feels that he needs to compensate or
somehow make some kind of gesture and doesn't know quite what to do. I would not be surprised if he launches some kind of purge or, you know, s security crackdown on dissent in the army and society. I can't imagine that he's anything other than than shock. As long as, and this is very important, as long as we assume that actually he is
informed of what is happening. And that part is something we actually can't assume because what we have seen right from the beginning of this war is that he is is strongly detached from reality. I mean he's began the war in February twenty two because he thought he could win it easily. He just bought the words of the sycophants that surround him at face value. And that was the major approximate cause of his massive overreach and miscalculation in in in in in launching the war.
So um I think we can also assume that uh the you know the sycophancy continues, that the information bubble continues. When he congratulates uh generals and soldiers for averting the civil war, I mean Perhaps he actually believes it. Perhaps he thinks that everything is now going to be fine. You know, we just don't know.
how much of you know whether he's seen those scenes in Rostov. I mean we we we don't know w what information he he gets. Uh we do know that he famously doesn't use the internet. He th he I literally thinks it's a CIA project. We should also bear in mind that
for many people around Putin in his inner circle who are thinking towards elections scheduled for march seventeenth, twenty twenty four, the next Russian presidential elections, and that's strangely enough not very often discussed. But in fact he does face
re-election in eight months' time. I think for many members of the elite who are thinking of Russia win or without Putin, another candidate and so on and so on, see that there are forces in Russia who are beyond the Kremlin's control, who are outside the the elite. who are violent, who are effective, and are willing to take advantage of chaos.
So in a paradoxical way, actually, those forces of chaos I think will give pause to a lot of people who are kind of considering an alternative to Putin or someone who is going to change tack precisely because the system has been proven to be so fragile and so brittle. The idea of revolution is terrifying to the Russian elite.
And clearly their main interest is to hang on to their their yachts and palaces and privileges rather than find themselves swinging from lampposts by the light of burning Mercedes.
Paulina, his personal impact?
I agree with uh what Owen's saying in terms of the image of stability is something that he loves to project the strongman image, the macho image, the fact that the you know, uh the reason why Russians have to uh accept this kind of political system, a lack of democracy and so on. Part of it is wealth and part of it is
stability and this is what he promises. And obviously the past year has shown that that stability is crumbling and Saturday's insurrection was a very, very clear sign of that. For me, the most stark image of it is, you know reporting on the day, the tanks of the Wagner militia are kind of moving north, heading along the motorway. I'm talking to people
in Varonez, which is a town on the way, or in Moscow, which is sort of waiting for the militiamen to arrive, the mercenaries to arrive to the city. And the anxiety and anxiety is building and building And um then suddenly the local authorities of regions just south of Moscow start sending out, you know, these diggers
to go out onto the motorway and start literally tearing holes into the Russian motorways in tearing up the infrastructure in order to prevent tanks from going through. And you can't really get a picture that is a more obvious sign of or kind of a a metaphor for the weakness of the state than having to kind of send out your
diggers to dig up motorways to stop the tanks from reaching Moscow, um, at the last minute. And that's also something that I think kind of blows holes in the argument that it was a staged false flag. It's just too this stuff is is too humiliating in a way.
¶ Internal Security Fears and Putin's Remaining Grip
It also shows a lot of incompetence and the idea that an armed force can make its way seven hundred and eighty kilometers across Russian territory without being stopped is obviously going to be noticed in Kiev, in the West, in China. It's substantial. And another thing I would mention is that of course we uh all sort of talk about this and know that Putin um does not
He does not like his enemies, but he hates traitors. And so that is also something that's going to kind of I think define the the coming weeks, days, months, who knows?
Andre, the p impact on him personally.
Well, I think it's it's about two things. First, uh he over the last twenty years he invested so many things into promoting the idea of national sovereignty. Like everything, almost everything could be j sacrificed to preserve and to improve national sovereignty. And yet when he got into this problem with his former well chef, he uh let his minor partner, Alexander Lukashenko, the president who he never pr actually respected, to get in and fix his problem.
And I think it's uh it would have a profound psychological effect on him. The second thing which is might be even more important is that Putin has been paranoid about his personal security and safety for all these years. Remember that he boasted about
thirteen or fourteen assassination attempts on his life, so clearly he thinks a lot about his personal security and yet he built a system where you have his security services uh being very hesitant at reaction to the crisis when the threat is coming From inside. When you have some dispute in his internal circle, nobody knows what to do. And everybody now is uh asking themselves this question like what if tomorrow it would be Kadir?
Or some guy on the Security Council issuing a statement that, for instance, I'm just speculating that our Vladimir Vladimirovich got ill and now we need to take things into our hands What would be the reaction of the FSB, of the National Guard, of Kadyrovs and all these people who are paid to protect and preserve the political stability of Russia?
Paulina, we talked a fair bit about those whose support might be faltering for Putin. Where is his support? Amongst whom does his support now lie?
Putin has for a long time just banked on im inertia and that is, you know, still in his favour, I would say, overall, unless we see and I I really hesitate to make any predictions um in this situation, or in fact about Russia ever, um but inertia will work in his favour still because
unless something very radical changes or some other internal uprising is launched, ultimately what you the Russian public was just presented with is an option between Putin and Prigoshian and uh some people did cheer him on, but ultimately I think the fear of chaos and the fear of instability will be sort of the choice of of of Putin instability in some way still wins out, I think even if it's just inertia. But yeah, his support is looking um
We'll never prophesy, goes the saying, especially about the future. In spades when it comes to Russia, perhaps the only guarantee about the future is that we'll probably be back with more Putin. Thanks to my guests, Andrei Soldatov, Paulina Ivanova and Owen Matthews, and thank you for listening.
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Putin was presented by me, Johnny Diamond. The producer was Lucy Burns, the series producer was Joe Kent, and the editor was Emma Rippin. The studio engineer was Neil Churchill, and the researcher was Isabel Goss. The production coordinator was Sophie Hill.
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