Neil Carrier on Khat

any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, before I introduced today's guest, I just wanna bring you up to date on a little actually disappointing news for me, which is that, uh, this first version of Psychoactive will unfortunately come to an end uh in late January when we

complete two seasons. And I have to say, I mean, basically, what's happened is that the two key backers of Psychoactive, which is I Heart and Darren Aronovski's company Protozoa, UM, you know, I have done it, have made really made a wonderful investment in this uh and the audience has been growing, the reviews have been fantastic, But unfortunately, and I understand this and empathize with it, the the numbers of listeners is not yet significant enough to justify a

continue investment. So we'll likely be taking a break at the end of January and trying to figure out how to bring Psychoactive back in some similar but slightly different form with different backers. So at this point, what I'd like to say to you is that if you've been enjoying the podcast, UM, please poster your comments, put them up on where you know, whether it's Apple or Spotify or I Heart or Google, wherever you listen to your podcasts. So I hope to keep Psychoactive going into the future.

I've really love doing it and I've got a wonderful feedback UM, but part of its future will depend upon you, the listeners, and how much you can you know, not just send your positive feedback, but spread the word, encourage others, Pierre's friends, students, teachers, whatever to listen so that we can build this audience as big as possible. Okay, Well that said, let me introduce today's guest. He's Professor Neil Carrier.

He's a professor of social anthropology at the University of Bristol in the United Kingdom, and he is one of the really leading experts in the world, both about drugs in Africa and more specifically about a drug called cot spelled k h A T or q a T. And I'm delighted to have him on Psychoactive today. So Neil, thanks so much for joining me and my listeners on Psychoactive Pleasure. Ethan then, yeah, thank you very happening to me me on the podcast. So now I realized that many

of you may never have heard of cod. I mean, I've been fascinated by it because I've been studying drugs for many decades, and it doesn't pop up much in the news in the United States, and occasionally you read about a bust by the d e A or local authorities, typically directed at as Somali or Ethiopian immigrant communities living in the United States, or maybe at a transshipment that

gets caught at a port um. But it's got a long and rich history, and I wanted to discuss with Neil today, both not just about cod and its unusual history, but also how thinking about cod in relationship to other drugs, like like coffee, like tobacco, like coca like, opium like even cava. I mean, how we think about these drugs comparatively in terms of their indigenous uses, in terms of

their modernization, in terms of international markets and all of that. So, Neil, why don't we just start off if you could explain to our listeners what exactly is cat? What does it come from, what does it do? How far back does it does its history? Go, start us off with it with the answers to those questions. Sure, thank you, Ethan. Yes, well, basically cat comes from either a shrub or a tree.

Cat comes from the kata julius plant, which which can grow is quite a small shrub or can grow into something quite a bit a bit larger into a full blown tree, depending on on how it's how it is produced and cultivated. And basically it is the the the product that is sold of the young stems and leaves that shoot up from the main branches of the of

the shrub of of the tree. And these have have stimulating properties mainly due to some compounds that resemble amphetamine in the in how they how they work on the on the central nervous system. Those compounds are cathinone and and catheine those are the two key elements, and cathinone is basically a sort of cousin of the amphetamine was somewhat similar effects. That's right, and it's quite interesting, I think pharmacologically there has been quite a quite a bit

of work done on all the different types of compounds. So, as you know, with a lot of these plants, including cannabis and the like, people tend to focus on particular compounds TH, HC or or what have you. And it's quite similar with cat as well. So a lot of the focus pharmacologically is on this substance calvin one, but there are a lot of other compounds within within cat that you know have been researched in immoral or less detail.

But basically it is these these leaves and stems are consumed by by chewing um, and people build up a wad of cat in their in their cheeks and chew often often for quite a few hours at least for for a time, constantly building up this ward in the in the cheek, so maybe a little bit like like

chewing tobacco or chewing coca. So this one is constantly replenished and this is what gives releases the stimulating properties of the of the substance m so similar in the same way that's say indigenous people's oblivia Peru, Columbia elsewhere, will chew the coca leaf and and slowly a slow drip of cocaine gets released, or in some cases people

will chew tobacco and the nicotine gets released. Similarly, people will be chewing the cart and the catino and eventually the cassine will get released, and that's what provides the pleasant feeling I guess of of engaging in this. That's right,

and I think it's key like. The way it's consumed is quite a key aspect of cat like like with coca and chewing coca, because it is actually put it a more measured release rather than taking a pure compound in in one go, it's kind of released over the hours of the of the chewing session, which is a more gentle effect. Really then then would be say taking

the isolated cabin on. A friend of mine actually had a really really nice way of explaining the or describing the effects of cat as being something that if you if you sit down in an armchair and you're not quite comfortable, but then suddenly you just shift your body and you find that place where you know your body is completely comfortable. Cat seems to be a little bit

like that. It is quite a quite a subtle effect, you know, the way it makes you makes you feel but it but you know, it is quite a quite a pleasant substance. And the history, I mean, does this go back millennia? Does it go back a thousand years? Does it have a history somewhere at the coffee or to old bi Um or what would you compare it to? And well, it it does go back a long time.

I think in records it's probably about them one millennium where we have records, especially in the region of Ethiopia and Yemen. There's a lot of early early records that text your records from that kind of region. Um. And it's it's similar to coffee actually, so probably about the about a similar timeline to two coffee and associated I

mean with coffee is associated. You know. Part of it is both the frisky goat story of realizing that this thing could wake up in the morning and also then beginning to use in order to help staying awake for the early morning prayers in in Islam. Um is there something similar? I mean, is is more associated with Muslims than with Christians or or our Animist or other types

of religions. Oh, it very much is um And sometimes there's an explanation given that for Muslim people without with restrictions on alcohol, that something like a cat can kind of fulfill that social social role um uh that alcohol does the man for many of the society. So there

is that kind of argument. But it it does link with especially um uh forms of Islam again kind of more in the Ethiopian region, if there are links with all night prayer session in Sufi Islam, and and in northern Kenya, where I've done quite a bit of work, you do get it's it's consumption associated with things like spirit possession sessions, which do tend to involve kind of

all night sessions. So you know something there is like a functional aspect to it, you know, something that's quite useful for keeping people going in these these kind of religious religious settings. But it's not it's not psychedelic in a sense of people using a peyote or using ebogo or things like that. Right, people aren't hall loosening the influence of this. They're more getting into a slightly modified state of consciousness. That's right. I mean, it's it's not

a direct psychedelic in that that way. I think, like a lot of these things, and the way contexts plays a role on how the effects have felt though, um, you know, perhaps in those kind of consumption contexts, um it might have a you know, be able to generate some sorts of altered aches, you know, along with the kind of music that would be going on, the drumming, this kind of thing. So context can maybe give it a slight effect like that, But generally no, it's it

is a fairly gentle form of amphetamin. Now, Neil, if we look in at the current time, I mean, if you look in the countries in the Horn of Africa as well as in the emigrant communities throughout the world, Um, I mean, how many people are probably chewing cut on any one day? I mean today are there are there probably ten million or five million or twenty five million people in the world chewing cut? And is it? Is

it over is it overwhelmingly? And Yemen and then in Somali and ken you how does it break out to be honest that there really isn't the the evidence yet to state with precision, I think how many how many people would be consuming over any one day, but it's certainly consumed over a vast area. So all the way from Yemen like you like you say, all the way actually down to the Eastern Cape in the South Africa, Southern Africa, you do get cat cat growing wild all

the way down that region. So even in the Eastern Cape there's people who do consume it. And it's also imported into South Africa from places like like Kenya and Madagascar as well. Actually as A is a place principally with the influence of Yemenis who settled in northern Madagascar centuries ago. But Northern Madagascar as well as another place where we're quite a bit of cats is consumed um. But the other sections of society where it's very very

very popular. It's become very popular principally again for this funk more functional used by people like truck drivers, people like night watchman either even students studying for for exams.

And culturally as well, it's become quite associated in places like Kenny with with quite a youth culture, so they very popular amongst them a few youth as well, so it kind of cuts across a lot of different social categories in a place like like Kenya, and most of these countries primarily used still by men and relatively infrequently by women generally speaking, that that does seem seem to be the case. But but there is is consumption by

by women. And again the proportions are probably higher in places like like Yemen, Um debouty, places like this, and in somewhere somewhere like can you were mostly seen as

more a male a male pursuit mm hmm. And it listen for those listeners of a poor sense of geography, it's useful to pull out a map at some point, but basically the Horn of Africa is that kind of northeastern part of of Africa, sort of below Egypt and Sudan and then sort of running down the eastern eastern side of Africa and then just directly across from Yemen

and Saudi Arabia. And in fact, the youth even extends into the neighboring regions of Saudi Arabia as well, as I realized when I was doing the research um on this. But you know, if you think about I mean, Yemen's got a population of thirty million, but if consumption there, I mean that could be. What I mean, that's probably where the highest percentage of the population lives. So it's quite likely you have many, many millions of people. Uh.

You know in Yemen. Somalia has got sixteen million people and so presumably got a few million there. Kenya's got fifty three million population, um, so even a small percentage there is gonna add up. In Ethiopia, you know, it's the second most populous country in Africa after Nigeria, over a hundred million people. So I'm guessing that must be in the tens of millions, in addition to the emigrant communities living in Europe and Australia and the UK, Canada

and elsewhere around the world. I mean, does that seem like a reasonable estimate? That seems like a really really reasonable way to to estimate it. And I think the other sense of the scale is how much production has boomed in places like Ethiopia and ken Near as well, um even moving beyond kind of traditional communities that are associated with its consumption and moving beyond places where it

was usually associated as an item of cultivation as well. Um. So I think from that you can certainly get a sense of growing numbers of people chewing chewing cap because you know, they wouldn't be the this real growth in cultivation and trade if it if it weren't for increasing demand alongside that, I see. And so the problem you have that there's most of it then has growing in Kenya and growing Ethiopia. Does that mean that the Yemen and Somalia and some of the other places are mostly

importing the stuff that they choo? Somalia mostly imports, but Yemen does it does produce a lot of its own its own cat mmmm. Now one interesting thing about cut is that the key ingredient, right the catherine know, you know what the equivalent to cocaine and coca or th ch in cannabis, it actually degrades very quickly once the leaves are picked. Um, and I thought one of the articles I think you're always called the need for speed. So just talk about that and the implications of that.

That's right, well, very much does have a real real implications for the way the trade is conducted in in cats, and especially in terms of the transportation. So as you say, Calvin owned is generally thought of as as degrading quite rapidly into this other compounded cabine, which is a lot less potent. So there is this idea that because of this, consumers really do want to get their cat as fresh as possible to to consume and get the most effects

from the substance. I think that needs to be nuanced a little bit because, UM, I think a lot a lot of the reason why consumers prefer fresh cat is it it just is much more pleasant to chew, you know, rather than cat that's dried a little bit as as well. And I think some research shows that it's UM this compound it can be more or less stable in some varieties of cats as well, So it's I think quite

quite interesting pharmacologically there. But there's certainly this idea that there's this need for speed, you know that um, there is this sense that people want want the freshest the cat possible. UM. And the implications in places like ken you really are very much about how fast that the trade has to operate, because especially where where it's produced.

In Kenya is a region called mary Mery County which is just northeast of the Mount Kenya, and this is where most of the Kenyan crop of the cat is is grown. And it's notorious if you're driving anywhere in that region that you'll be you'll be driving along and suddenly you'll be pushed off a road by some speeding

truck with sacks of cats. And this is quite a common idea, quite a common trope about about the cat business, not just in Kenya, but but throughout you know, in Ethiopia as well, these kind of trucks that speed on by and basically that that is to try and meet schedules, especially nowadays in Kenya with the trade that the export of Kenyan cat to Somalia um so that that cat has to reach the airports in Nairobi very very quickly, you know, to them be able to be loaded up

onto planes to get to to Somalia. So any any delays in that process really can lead to an unsellable, unsellable batch of cat. So let me ask you this thing, because one of the news items I came across was a major bust. It was in Seattle, and and and the you know, customs authorities sees I think ten tons of cart on a boat coming into the Seattle pork, you know, I mean sending it by boat. So how does the stuff stay it all good? If it's been

on a boat coming from East Africa into Seattle. Well, it's a it's a very interesting development that that links to what's happened in the UK as well where I'm based um and the UK, as you probably are, ware finally banned a cat in twenty fourteen, So the UK was one of the last European countries to bring about

a ban on on cat. And what you did find happened after the band So before the band, tons of the fresh cat was coming from Kenya, mostly from Kenya, some from Ethiopia as well, particularly daily coming into Heathrow Airport to then feed you know, the wider wider demand in the in the UK, so that this fresh cat was was coming in in vast quantities. But what seems to have happened since the ban is that there has

been a shift to a dried form of cat. It's called grabber Um seems to be the name that a lot of people that know it know it by in the in the UK and elsewhere. And it's yeah, it's quite interesting with these ideas about its pharmacology, about how unstable cavin Own seems that seems to be. Yet consumers still seem to say your consumers that I've spoken to who have tried this dried cat they still seem to

suggest that it is actually quite quite potent um. And to be honest, that the pharmacological research I don't think has been done yet to to really see what's going on there. We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. So I came across a funny story, and this may have been before this Graba version you're talking about came around, but it involves somebody getting busted some years ago in

the US. But the person who arrested him sort of took their time in processing it, and and so the person who got and busted with the cuts said he wanted to have it chemically analyzed. And what had happened was that the cathinone in the cot had already degraded to the point that it was no longer testing positive

for that. And so if it has still been testing positive, he would have been busted for, you know, selling or importing a drug that was essentially a Schedule one drug in the United States, you know, like like like heroin, or or or psychedelics or or a range of other things. But because the cathinone had degraded, it was now just the the catheine, which is only a schedule for substance. So therefore I think he almost I just got off

with a slap on the wrist um. So I wonder if that's going to change now with this new grabba

you're talking about. Quite quite possibly, but it's but there still is there still is demand for the for the fresh cat, and it kind of links again to that that need the speed sort of pulling it out a little bit, a little bit more broadly as well with even like the Drug Enforcement Administration offices and customs agents in places like the US, you know, being told like if if you do get a seizure of cat, you got to get it to the lab for testing US

as as quickly as possible. Otherwise, you know, the Yet, like you say, Cavin owner, schedule one substance will degrade into this cabin so it would be a lesser a lesser charge as well, and not so not so good for statistics, I think for the kind of customs agents or the d as well in terms of you know, if you can say, it's a really interesting story that perhaps we can get onto in in a little little bit about the criminalization of around the around the world,

and that the sched scheduling of it. Let's jump into that now. I mean, because I think you know, for people understand, I mean, I don't think it's part of the U N conventions. I mean, you know, the UN agencies having particularly friendly but it's not something that's been criminalized since the early twentieth century. I mean, the criminalizations that have happened around the world have been mostly in the you know, the late twentieth century or early twenty

one century, right, that's right. So with with with cat that they come hounds on it are actually scheduled, So cabin on and cavine again, these are compounds that are scheduled according to the conventions, but then there was a lot of leeway given as to whether the plant itself would then also be be regarded as kind of scheduled because of the compounds. So different countries took different approaches

to that. So for example, the UK, for for many years, UM, so the isolated cavinon or cavine would be restricted the compounds, but cat itself in platform wasn't was not restricted um. Whereas the the U S seems to have gone down a different to a different rope because cavin Ow and Calvine were themselves scheduled that the US we took the

measure of this assuming that UM. But because of that that the the United Nations intended that UM that CAT itself, if it contained cabin one or if it contained cavine, should also be restricted on those on those grounds, but there was no scheduling of CAT it itself UM. So that this did did lead to a lot of quite kind of quite interesting international situations in regard to the

legality of CAT. Mm hmmm. Well, so when we look at the criminalizations that happened, right, it is these European countries in the U S and other I guess they begin criminalizing, but it actually goes back deeper than that, right because when you look, I mean back to the colonial era in Africa when the colonial overlords, you know, we're concerned and we'd try to ban it um. And it also goes This is also an interesting case where this justn't wasn't just Western elites banning something that they

feared coming from abroad. A lot of the impetus in many places, both in the region as well as in Europe and maybe Canada other places, seemed to be coming from people within the Somali community or from some of the emigrant communities. There's they were sort of playing out is I if I understand what I've been reading from you and others playing out, you know, this their own debate over how to look at cat. That's right, it's um.

And I think the terms that come out to a lot in the way people write about cat, terms like ambivalence, terms like ambiguity, because there does tend to be so much ambivalence within particular communities about the consumption of cat. But certainly lots and lots of debates within within Islam about whether whether cat is forbidden or permitted, whether it should be seen as forbidden as um as haram, or

whether it could be seen as as hellal. So these debates, there's actually quite a quite a long tradition in especially in Yemen, of debates around around cat, and that the kind of the way Muslim scholars might might view it,

whether as permitted or not. You know, some seeing it as kind of you know, so you can consume it as long as it's not harming your a day to day life or your link to your community, whereas others much more restrictive on its on its consumption and then yeah, kind of a lot of concern especially often quite gendered forms of the concerns as well about the the idea of cat is this very male pastime um where maybe taking the men away for long periods from the domestic

sphere and contributing to the home and the the idea is spending too much money on this substance as well, Yeah, because it reminds me a bit because we've recently did an episode about the history of alcohol prohibition in the US and there that was very much a women's led movement as well. To bring on you who led the

temperance movement and then alcohol prohibition in the US. It was the same concerns around men spending their money on booze and not taking care of their families and claimed you know, associations with violence and reckless behavior in all this, and I think you would have some of the same debates around opion in many traditional opium using communities, with you know, with the with the female heads of household upset with with what their husbands were doing and the

waste of money going on. And then of course I think there's awten sometimes the class based conflict right with the elites kind of looking down their nose at the more working class folks, and obviously they concern around young

people getting into it. I mean, it seems like some of those debates that I read about in your writings, you know, are around around the around the debates around what to do about cut are very similar to ones who've seen elsewhere on the world, around other substances, very much so, a lot of a lot of parallels and

throughout those as as well. Within Keny. One thing I became particularly fascinated by was all the different varieties of cats that are sold um and you you do get cat being sold in Kenneth for all sorts of pockets. You know, you get the very expensive varieties of cats that come from the the oldest frees, kind of kind of light with vineyards, you know, like the best quality grapes coming from the oldest fines. And it's a very very similar discourse about the best quality cat coming from

the oldest trees. And this sort of cat can really fetch quite a quite a large amount of money. But then then you do get to lesser varieties as well, you know, which are the equivalent of the maybe like the sweepings of tea from the factory floor that might be sold as you know, kind of low quality, low quality tea. So it was quite interesting always in Keny

of those divisions around around class. So a lot of the Kenyan middle classes would often conflate all CAT consumers as perhaps being quite quite lonely people, you know, people working on the buses or in public transport or these kind of things, where whereas for those in the know, you know, CAT it does straddle a lot of different

different class groups as well. So for those with inside and knowledge about all these different types of varieties, you know, you can see people who are buying a particular variety that is very very expensive compared to you know, someone who might just be buying the cheapest quality as well. CAT is not really criminalized in Europe u as much

of the world until the eighties. And then as I understand that what happens is, you know, Somalia is falling apart into a horrific civil war, Somalians are emigrating around

the world, including to throughout Europe, the US. Uh, they're bringing the cod tradition with them, and you know, the Western governments don't really know how to respond at first, but My understand is that part of what drives many of them in Scandinavia, the UK, probably some other countries is that you have Somalian Somali emigres refugees themselves pushing for the prohibition in these European and other Western countries,

while others are saying, what are you doing? This is our indigenous product, this is something that's native to you know, our cultures. That's right, And it was quite quite a pronounced the aspect of all the debates in the UK leading up to the ban in um and it is very very interesting actually how it does link to those kind of diaspora, those kind of emigrade dynamics as well.

One kind of critical aspect of all this is a sense among some Somalis that that cat wasn't really an issue back in the in the home regions, but it's when it was displaced into the diaspora, the emigrade kind

of context that it became a became a problem. Partly the argument that you know, there were more kind of cultural restraints around consumption in the in the home areas compared to the diaspora context, the emigrade context, but also one one kind of quite interesting dynamic is the real sense of strong morality that a lot of Somalis have in the emigrade context that if if you do get the um, if you you do get the chance to live in somewhere like London or or or Minneapolis, are

these kind of places that you should keep on supporting families back in the in the home regions. So there's a lot of remittances that are that are sent back from Somali's in the emigrade context, back to back to Somalia,

to Somali's in Kenya and elsewhere. And I think with cat there's there's quite a strong morality about it that, you know, if you get the chance to be in the in the somewhere like London, you know a place where you could could perhaps earn money, some of which could go back to supporting family, but instead you kind of waste it chewing chewing cat in in London or wherever.

There was kind of a very very strong sort of ethical pushback against that, But all of that debate had its roots in similar debates going on in Yemen and in Kenya and Ethel being elsewhere, right, because even there you had issues about all this is not good and the men are just hanging around and they're spending money on carts instead of food and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right, I mean it wasn't It wasn't like these debates suddenly emerged when people got to go to Europe or to

the US. It's just that they became i think, probably more exaggerated because they were dealing with a new cultural context and all the more worried about their kids and

about employment. Oh definitely, it's something that became intensified. Like you say, these debates have been going on for a long time, and debates not necessarily about the individual consumer as well, but about you know, kind of the idea of whole whole countries as well, you know, very economistic kind of way of looking at life, like you know, wasting working hours by cheering this substance or so you often the way places like Jibouti and the Yemen might

be written about, like as if a whole society was kind of addicted to this substance and not you know, the countries weren't developing as as well as they might. You know, if only people stopped touring cat then you know, development would come in a more concrete, concrete kind of form. And the same thing was true in the colonial era, right where the colonial overseers try to ban it at certain different certain times, or ban it for certain groups and night others, or trying to license it or where

all this kind of thing. That's right, and um, some of my research it's one more more historical kind of archival research. I've done what was looking at again at the Kenyan context, which is the one I'm still most most familiar with. But it was that, yeah, very very interesting colonial story about the attempts to to prohibit this

this substance. And again you can you can see from quite early on in the archives, you know, going back to around the nine twenties and thirties, when the British authorities in Kenya, the British colonial authorities suddenly realized how much cat was being consumed, how much was being grown, and how much was being traded because it suddenly came into their into their site as you know, a substance

of interest. They hadn't really trapped it. And then all of a sudden they realized that this substance from places like the Mayory region of Kenya, it was traveling quite a quite large distances and being sold you know as far aways Mombassador and places like this, and there were all these debates, so again this idea of kind of

ambivalence towards it and the ambiguities around it. So look, quite a few British officials didn't really see it being too problematic or you know, they were kind of comparing it to things like tobacco and in moderation it's it's not too bad a thing. But certain colonial officers really got to be in their bonnets, really became quite involved in um in wanting to prohibit the substance, especially for

the certain parts of Kenya, like northern Kenya. There's a lot of concern that it's consumption there was growing, and it really was affecting a region that was quite a sensitive region as as well politically, because it was a buffer zone between Kenya and Ethiopia and the Italian Somali land as it as it then was. Yeah, I gotta kick out of At one point you mentioned that, you know, the British didn't want to kind of get too tough on the Merrow Kenyan Is because they respected them and

it was dynamic account. I was dynic by the culture. But with respect to the Somali's who were living in Kenya and they if they wanted to get their kind at one point they had a licensing scheme where they had a register as addicts in order to get access to KA. I mean, not unlike you had with some of the opium control systems in parts of Southeast and southwast Asia UM at a roughly similar period in time, which is kind of humiliating to say, well, if you're

Somali origin, you've got a register an addict. If you're not Somali origin, then we're just going to tolerat it. And you know, either have it be legal or look the other way. That's right. And it was quite racialized, the idea that these sort of pastoralist people of northern Kenya, like Somali's um that consumption by them was something quite problematic, whereas for these agricultural people like the Marrow, you know,

it wasn't so seen as so lomatic. So it was quite interesting how it how it became quite racialize, these kind of concerns about it by the by the British, but yes, it did. It did lead to incredible situations where you did have people to to go to go

and get their supply of cat. At one point they would go and register with the district commissioners office to to go and get their their supply, and I think quite a few people did did take on the the kind of the label of being an addict because then you did get a supply of cat given to you

by the British district officers as well. So at this point now it's fully legal right in Ethiopia, in Yemen, in Kenya, in Djibouti, that's right, yes, And is it fully legal anywhere else in different countries it's you can get quite a lot of legal ambiguities around it. So in some where like Uganda where there is quite a quite a growing consumption of the cat and cultivation of cats as well, but I think district different districts in Uganda do have like local kind of local laws kind

of restricting restricting cats as well. And in some places it's never quite clear. You know, some some like for example Madagascar, it's often written about as being illegal, but then also seems to be written about as being legal, and it's it can be quite hard to cut through the haze of this because one one thing with CAT is it does get so many so much legal ambiguity

built up around it. So even in somewhere like Kenya, whereas is perfectly perfectly legal, but quite a lot of people see it as, you know, something to be regarded with suspicion and something quite quite dubious in many ways. So it does still takes arm kind of an air of being something that even if it can be sold openly, but it's there's something not quite not quite right there. There's the other thing it became conflated with in the post n era, with the war on terrorism as well.

But there was quite a bit to push in the in the US, especially that CAT CAT trading routes should be should be properly pleased, because there's this idea that the likes of al Qaedo and so forth Islamic militant groups in in Somalia were a lot of their funding

was coming from CAT. This was the idea anyway, Well, there was probably some truth to it, right, I mean, it makes it makes sense that groups that are involved in transnational criminality are looking to raise money any which way they can, that they're going to be getting some of their revenue from illicit drug sales. I mean, it's true have been true of most guerrilla movements, and not most,

but many guerrilla movements. And I think most you know, terrorist organizations that you know, they have a constant need for capital and there are constantly involved in you know, trying to you know, get guns from one place and then use the same planes to shift back drugs on the other. I think about the histories by Alfred J. McCoy about the politics that Heroin and Southeast Asia. He tracked where you know, basically traces all kind of this history.

So it would make sense that some of that was going on, although no doubt it was being exaggerated in the Western media. Yes, what what you would find? I mean, certainly, I think al Qaeda had no as far as I'm aware, any no links to it to CAT. But you certainly do find like groups like al Shabab kind of militia group, militant group in control of still quite large swaves of Somalia.

Um that because CAT is still sold if they sometimes do try and ban it, because these kind of militant Islam groups like al Shabab, you know, often do do see CAT is something you know, that should be forbidden. So sometimes there are attempts to ban it, but mostly you know, they do kind of tolerate it. And it is the case that for for a lot of these groups, because cat is being sold in the in the area, it is something that they tax and so quite a

bit of revenue is made for them. But then everything is acts, you know, like all commodities like sugar and charcoal, um, so anything going through these kind of regions. But I think quite a bit of that concern, especially thinks I read in the US coming out to the US maybe around two thousand and four, two thousand and five, that kind of era, a lot of the concerns about cat and funding terrorism really did seem to be based on

very very little evidence. It was more more the case like you know, cat is being sold all over the world. You know, it's a popular, popular commodity. It's it seems to be a drug, and it's mostly associated with Muslims. We don't know where the money is going from CAT.

Therefore there's a high likelihood it's funding al Qaeda. And it seems some quite tenuous logic was going on in in in in this kind of exaggeration, so people just weeding it into the kind of narco terrorism war on drugs and narrative that they would cocaine and actually never

really got attached to marijuana very much. Now in terms of the enforcement in the emigrant communities, I don't know if it's in your writings or in others where you know, I was reading that in place like Sciandinavia, it actually got pretty tough. I mean they weren't just doing a blind eye of this stuff. They were using informants and

random stops and arrests. I mean, there actually are some significant numbers of people, you know, Somalians others who are been getting arrested and going to jail at least I said, is that right or is it really still just slap

on the wrist type thing. It's very very much does depend on the on the contextum So it's it's very interesting to look at at somewhere like the UK and in relation to to cat Well, like I said, it was finally banned in in twenty four teen, but the band, the way it's it's been enforced, it's they kind of have a free strike system, um where you know, first off you just get a warning, next time, maybe a fine, and then then finally there might be more proceedings kind

of brought to brought against you. I kind of I think it would be interesting to do some research on on how many people are actually getting busted with with CAT But my sense anyways, but it's very very low down any priorities for the police forces, you know, who's funding is. UM is generally quite quite marginal at the

at the best of time. But at the same time, you had media um you know, I mean I saw claim across one thing, like back in two thousand and four, a relatively respected newspaper like The Guardian had ran a piece with the headline about Cott quote this has the same effect as ecstasy and cocaine and it's legal. Or before you know I started this interview, I pulled up the drug fact sheet from the d e a's website and they asked the question, what's this effect on the mind?

Cott It says can induce manic behavior with grandiose delusions, paranoia, nightmares, hallucinations, and hyperactivity. Chronic catpories can result in violence and suicidal depression.

And that's a d A fact sheet that's up there today, right, So you see this kind of you know, natural desire to kind of make cats sound as if it's indistinguishable from the purified form of cathine on or even worse right, and just fit it in with the same kind of rhetoric if they use respect to a bunch of other drugs which have oftentimes much more powerful impact on human behavior. That's right. I think this kind of conflation goes on, goes on so much with it with all drugs obviously.

But we talked earlier about the labeling of cat as a as a drug and people kind of pushing back. So for example, the Mary who produced a lot of the cats holding kenure and and and beyond, a lot of the cats sold around the world, but they very much do push back against that idea of cat as a drug like you know, cocaine or over like, because you know, they're aware of how how that that that kind of idea is something that has restricted the trade and led to these these kind of prohibitions and and

and so forth. There's an interesting thing that when you look at substance suits that are coming. You know, if you look at Cradam coming for kryptom as it's called in Southeast Asia coming into the West and it's being used you know, oftentimes by you know, not emigrated communities, but by people you know, you know, a whole variety of people living you know, you know, have long you know, go back multigeneration from multigenerations in the United States and

other consuming countries. If you look at kava coming from South Pacific, once again, it's not just among South Pacific emigrads. Um uh. And I think that's true probably of a whole number of other sort of plant based psychoactive substances. But with COD, I don't see anything about it being used outside the emigrade communities. I don't hear anything about you know, you know, white people or black people, or you know, or Hispanic people. The United States taken this up.

It just seems to be so powerfully connected to the cultural tradition that it's not breaking out. But is there any evidence that that that COD is being used out side the immigrant communities. Very very little, I think. But maybe some whites in places like the UK, you know, who had experience, perhaps they've been to Yemen and to choose some cat there or or ken you and the

like would would perhaps too. But it is something that really seems so very different to most of the the sort of mainstream drug culture in somewhere like the UK, you know, which does tend to revolve around substances that that kind of do give you a more intense feeling or a more a quicker effect. I think for a lot of people have thought of chewing a wad of cat. Chewing a wad of green leaves for hours on end is not something that is particularly appealing, you know, beyond

those communities where it's more traditionally associated. And then I think one way that producers in Kenya, people like the like the Mary involved in the cat industry, some of them have been quite forward thinking and realizing that the four of chewing this substance for hours on end is not necessarily going to get them, but you know, very very much broader repeal than it then it has at

the moment. So there has been development of things like kind of espresso shots of the cat, kind of espresso pods that have been developed where you know, the water will will come through and the still I suppose that must probably be dried cat, but still does apparently produce produce the effects that that people are looking for. And the other interesting thing they're in Kenya is that there's a company that does make um what's called hand ass juice, and hand ass is the main Kenyan term for the

effects of the cat. You know, if you're feeling hand ass, you're you're feeling under the influence of the cat. And that there is a company selling kind of like the equivalent of energy drinks, but produced from from cat. So I think these are ways that people are trying to make it more repealing, you know, to the wider wider population. Let's take a aight here and go to an ad. You know, there's also a thing where you and your colleague at Bristol or Ga Kanchik, who I also made

an abuja at the African Drugs Conference in October. You know, I put forward this notion of quasi legality and seeing that as a useful frame with which to think about caught and cannabis and possibly other substances. Who just elaborate on that idea of quasi legality, Well, quasi legality is our attempt really to get at the these kind of legal ambiguities that we see as revolving around substances like cat and also cannabis in particular, in various African and

not just African, elsewhere in the world context. I'm really trying to get at the so with for example, at, it always seemed like a substance that was often legal, like for example, in Kenya, for for most of post independence Kenyan Kenyan history, cat has been legal, yet until recently, cat has been seen as something to be held in suspicion, you know, partly because the internationally was seen as a substance to be suspicious of, and you know, the substance

that had been banned in various other other parts of the world. And also the fact that cat, you know, it's kind of produced in these countries legally like Kenya and Ethiopia, but then when it travels into somewhere like Tanzania or Um or other places, it does you know, then enter into an illegal, illegal kind of framing um.

So really we were trying to trying to get it that kind of that kind of ambiguity of you know, substances like cat which aren't really it's not very exactly clear kind of where they're whether what they're legal, legal status is and we've actually it was quite quite quite interesting, but it's often legal in places, you know, Ethiopia and Kenya,

yet often seen as being something kind of illegal. So according to the statute books it's legal, yet according to the way a lot of people in society view it, it's kind of is something that's conflated with these these other illegal illegal drugs, and therefore it takes on those connotations of being illegal. Whereas, interestingly, with cannabis, it often seems to be the opposite, you know, cannabis in most

African countries. So it is this is changing now with various policy changes in relation to cannabis in some African countries, but cannabis often seemed to be the opposite. Almost it was um usually by the statute books it or certainly by the statute books it was illegal. Yet often it was seen as you know, socially something that was very

much tolerated or even even supported. And I think that these kind of terms get get to that idea of the fact that what the statute books say, you know, it doesn't necessarily take you very far into how how a society views these these kinds of substances. So interesting to see that when you're talking about being legal to sort of frowned upon. I mean, you tell the story about for example, the government of Kenya was generally kind of negative about COT until the point where the United

Kingdom criminalized it. And they criminalize it over the recommendations of their own Advisory Committee on Drugs, which I think you had advised saying don't criminalize it. And at that point can you kind of jumps to the defensive cop and realize that it's got this economic value in parts of the country and realize it's a significant source of you know, tax revenue and export revenue for the government. So you see a kind of jumping forward to defend it.

Yet on the other hand, Um, I guess they're also issues. I mean, if you look with climate change over the place like Yemen, you know where issues around water and limited access to water and of large parts of agricultural land are actually being used to grow caught in places where you have a country in a major state of disruption,

that could be problematic. Um, you would think, and I think actual Client makes this point in some of his writings that development agencies would in fact be embracing CAT because it's an indigenously produced agricultural you know, uh product market something that has international ramifications, especially especially within the region, um, yet they seem to stay away from it, uh where it's more lucrative than coffee and more reliable and lucrative

than coffee and some other products that are usually exported to foreign markets and therefore provides a good, you know, constant source of revenue for farmers in the same way that those in Afghanistan benefit from opium and those in South America benefit from coca. It's a fascinating It's a story that is unique in many respects compared to i mean similar other places. But also it's got its own

unique dynamics. That's right, and I think it does bring out to quite a lot of ambiguit wide the ambiguities in the world of drugs more generally. But but that, yes, the way it's kind of seen in terms of development, you know, something that that obviously that there has been quite a lot of concern, especially in places like Ethiopia, of farmers, you know, kind of pulling up their coffee plants. You often hear of this and planting a cat instead.

You know, often the idea being like sort of you know, coffee giving very very sort of limited funds and generally generally being marketed in particular ways where the farmers don't have particularly much control over it, whereas cats, you know, giving much more regular payments and more regular harvests and and things like this, as as well as being a

more more valuable, valuable crop. But I was always amused, probably about a decade ago now, reading an article that's somebody wrote an Irish guy who runs a coffee coffee chain in in Ireland, and he had traveled to Ethiopia and he was horrified because in the in the area where some of the coffee was coming from for his

his chain. He was absolutely horrified to hear about these farmers, you know, pulling up coffee plants to plant cat instead kind of, but didn't quite see the contradiction of you know, it's just a these are both stimulants in a way. But you know, no, obviously there is like a hard and fast kind of economic logic to why these farmers are switching to or were at that time anyway, switching

to cat. But what explains why it's more lucrative and if it's not illegal, usually what adds the price is the kind of prohibition tax that you know, the way in which making something criminal makes it much more valuable for those people who produce it, so long as they don't get caught by the law. But in the case of cat, right it's relatively easy to produce, doesn't require a lot of care um, yet it seems to sell for substantially more than most other agricultural products. Why is that?

That's a really good question, and I think it probably almost need to look at that in reverse, like why why do the lights of coffee and te fetcher fect so little? And partly I think it is to do with the particularly in Kenny, of the way the industry developed in relation to cats very much more an informal way of work, way of operating the trade, and you know, grew with like you were saying, the Kenyan government for

a long time was very hands off with cat. They realized a lot of people depended on it, so they weren't going to prohibit it and move in that direction. But on the other hand, they didn't want to be seen to be encouraging it for much of of ken Year's post independence history, so really let the let the farmers get on with it. And I think that the way it developed in this this kind of way was was a lot more on the on the terms of the people involved in the in its production, in its trade.

And yes, it's you know, there's always people who make more money in the commodity chain of obviously any any agricultural commodity or any commodity more generally. But but in general, I think not having that the corporate way of working that things like tea and coffee has um you know, with these smallholder farmers, really paps, you know, getting very very little for their for their product. You know, this is something that has helped CAT maintain its value. M hmm. Now, yeah,

I really know. We didn't quite get deeply into the health aspects of cut, right, I mean, you know, when you think about how relatively safe it is, what are the harms associated with it? I mean, what more can you tell us about, you know, the margins of risk and benefit from a health perspective about cut chewing? Yes,

very important question. Yeah, in general, a lot a lot of research on the kind of health harms because people much more often, I think, in research on cat and other substances like this, focus on harms, don't they rather than the potential benefits of these these kinds of substances.

You know, the way the way research might be might be framed, but certainly our issues associated of it um in particular, for example, um dental problems can be can be quite a big issue, particularly with people who chew cheaper varieties of cat which can be very bitter, so a lot often the sweeten them with bubblegum or sugar, you know, and if you're not brushing your teeth kind of well after that, that that can lead to to issues. So sort of dental problems can be can be quite

quite a big issue. And the probably the most alarming thing you hear about in relation to cat. Again, it's you know, in terms of causality, as as with all these things, it's very hard to pull apart. But you do hear people talk of the syndrome called cat psychosis um of you know, people having psychotic episodes after after

consuming a cat um. And there seems to be some evidence that cat may have play may have played a cause of role in in in the In regard to this, though often seems to have been much more the case among people who have experienced, you know how high degrees of trauma you know, perhaps in the in the Somali

Civil war, or you know, kind of the refugee refugee process. Um, So, how do you sort of disaggregate cats and issues of causality, you know, from these other wider, wider factors that might make people more susceptible to um to two psychesis is quite a quite a difficult thing. So, Neil, from a policy perspective, I mean, from everything we've talked about and from all my reading and preparing for our discussion, it seems to me that of what we're making a policy recommendation,

one would be saying, don't criminalize this stuff. There's no reason for countries around the world to be criminalizing it um and that the harms of criminalization probably exceed you know, the benefits of criminalization. That the United Nations has been smart not to try to criminalize card or, including the city of the International Anti Drug Conventions, in that the UN agencies, the UN o DC, and the International Cards Control Board the i n c B, should you know,

just keep their hands off it and shut up. And then basically the risk of full legalization, even full global legalization, are pretty negligible given the relative sort of benefit risk ratio of cut use. Would you agree, I think, I think on the whole yes, and it was quite a difficult issue actually in the for example, in the UK context with the band that came in twenty fourteen, particularly as so much support for the band was coming, especially

mostly from Somali's within the UK. It was quite quite a thing, you know when the community themselves that even people who did Chew, a lot of them kind of argued that it should be banned, you know, this thing should be should be banned. So that that was an aspect of the debates that that is, you know, for for the scholars and aviously because it is quite an interesting good, you know, quite quite a difficult thing to deal with in some ways, you know when it is

coming from the community themselves. Than My kind of perspective at the time of the UK ban was how like it was. It was really an opportunity, I thought, for the UK government to try and bring in something, you know,

some better policy to towards CAT. So for example, the before Cat was banned, it the British government was raising revenue on on cat imports um and it's you know, it seemed like potentially a way of a way of dealing with a lot of the issues that the communities were concerned about in relation to to cat you know, and wider issues facing communities like the Somalis in the UK, that maybe some of that tax revenue could be kind of hypothecated, you know, it could have been put towards

efforts to help those communities, or or policies such as such as that. You know that that wouldn't have been been a band because what what has effectively happened in the UK is that nobody's happy now having over then the UK government which is kind of kicked the issue of into the into the long grass um. But no, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pushing you too. You give me a straight answer here. I'm saying, if somebody asks you, Neil Carrier, what should we do with our God? Should

this stuff simply be legal around the world. There's got no business being a prohibited substance anywhere. Would you say yes? Or would you say I don't know or no? I would I would generally say yes, okay, yes, yeah, it's good. Good to push. I think where the sensitivitivities come though, because it are those sensitivities of you know, so much of the calls for it to be banned coming from

the communities themselves, you see. But as you say, I mean, there's been such a history in the world were often times, you know, people from indigenous communities or others will call for prohibitions, you know, not foreseeing all the ways in

which those prohibitions will have radically negative consequences for their communities. So, you know, my view has been it's kind of incumbent on anybody looks at this from both the policy perspective and a human rights perspective, you know, to look at it clearly and speak clearly, even if people from when those communities are divided about what the policy should be. Yes, yeah,

that's a very fair point. Well, I'll tell you. I want to thank you ever so much for having this conversation about Catt with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. As I said, I think it may be the first podcast ever, although maybe I missed one on this issue of cott uh and hopefully uh we see policies. Policy doesn't seem to be changing very much anywhere in the world right now, but it you know, it seems like it's not doing too much harm, although it could be better.

But you know, thank you very much. The best of luck. Yeah, I was just going to make one final point that it's quite interesting because well, well you know, when we think about how drug policy does seem to be influx quite a bit, I think substances are going in different directions. You know, Cannabis around the world seeming to become more

liberalized in various parts of the world. Whereas cat, you know, something most people I think would see as a mildest substance, but you know, he's becoming more and more illegal around the world. So so I think cat and cannabis do do you speak to a lot of the ambiguities of when you put those into comparison. Well, with that, Neil, I want to thank you ever so much for having this conversation with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you,

thank you very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Mad. You can

also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noham Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks

to ab Brios f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BB. Next week I'll be talking with Dennis McKenna, the famed ethnobodanist and anthropologist whose book The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss will soon be re released. Well, science fiction was a huge influence somics, you know, and cultivate A did a fascination with the esoteric and the strange, you know, I mean, for our from our perspective, you know, we were weird and the weirder the better, you know. And so when

psychedelics came along. I think that we viewed it not from a context of UH spirituality or or indigenous practices or anything like that. I mean, we discovered that later, but originally the idea was that these are other dimensions. Psychedelics can take you to other dimensions, and we thought of that quite literally, subscribe to Psychoactive now see you don't miss it.