Kurt Schmoke: Profile in Courage

any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Uh you know, I know I say sometimes that, well, this episode is gonna be a real treat, But I mean this one really is going to be a treat. And I'll tell you why. Uh Back, this goes back a ways to w and I was a young assistant professor at Princeton and had written a few articles about the drug war being totally out of control and doing more harm than good. And this mayor, young mayor in Baltimore, pops out saying

somewhat the same sorts of things. That's our guest today. His name is Kurt Schmoke. He's currently the president of the University of Baltimore. Before that, he was a dean of Howard Law School. He held a range of other positions. Um. But he was also the chief prosecutor of Baltimore in the nineteen eighties and then got elected mayor in late nine seven, served three terms until nine uh in Baltimore. Uh and uh, you know, really a garnered national attention

with a very brave thing that he did back then. So, Kurt, thanks so much for joining me and psychoacted great to be with you. And Uh, I guess my biggest claim to fame is that I read your articles while I was mayor. We helped a great deal. Well, it's very generous to you. But I I you know, as I reflected on occurred, I also think that but for your having stepped out, I I think my life might have

been totally different. Now for the first thing, I have to say, you know, I was thinking time does fly, and we're talking about it was a period when the drug war was in a period of national hysteria in America, number one issue in public opinion polls. Uh. You know, just you know, both Democrats and Republicans jumping on the drug war band. But wagon, it wasn't just Ronald Reagan

and Nancy Reagan, all the Republicans. It was Jesse Jackson, the most prominent African American political leader in America at that time, Charlie Wrangle, the influential Harlem congressman who was chairing the House Select Committee on Narcotics. But really just I mean, there was almost a national con census behind something I've oftentimes talked about as as basically, McCarthy is um on steroids. You know. I at that time, I write this article in Foreign Policy magazine saying the drug

Wars failed. It's a bust. The title was the US drug policy a bad export. A few weeks later, there's the Economist magazine, the famous British magazine comes out with editorial saying more or less the same thing and maybe even going further in terms of embracing full legalization, which I've been hedging on, and that gets a little attention.

And then I'm sitting in my office is you know, and then my first year teaching at Princeton and I get a phone call from some reporter I think in Baltimore saying, so, do you have any comments about what our new mayor just said? And I said, what did he say so, well, you better see this. He stood up at the National Conference of Mayors. They were having a joint meeting with the police chiefs of America, and he basically slammed the hell out of the drug war

and said, we need to put all options on the table. So, Kurt, okay, I'm bringing you back. It's it's April nineteen eighty eight. You've been elected mayor five months before after serving as chief prosecutor of Baltimore for many years. What was it that prompted you to do that? Absolutely outrageous, um but also extraordinarily courageous thing. Well, thanks very much, Ethan for taking us a little bit down memory lane. But it

does set a context. Yeah, I've been a prosecutor actually um eight years a prosecutor, three as an assistant U S Attorney, and then five as the chief prosecutor, the state's attorney in Baltimore. And as you recall, I had a good friend of mine who was working undercover as a police officer who was killed and uh during it was Marcellous Ward, Marty Ward, and and it was unfortunately

a botched drug operation. They were trying to capture a guy who was transporting drugs from New York, and the the person who was the recipient in Baltimore unfortunately figured out that Marty was a police officer shot and killed him. And Marty was wearing a body wire at the time. So as State's attorney, I had to listen to his his death and to make a decision about how I was going to prosecute. And at that time, Maryland had a death penalty law and had to decide whether to

seek the death penalty or not. But in any event, Marty's death started for me, started to trigger a lot of thinking about the about the drug war, and I had an opportunity. I was invited to be a speaker at this joint meeting of the U S Conference of Mayors and National Chiefs of Police. A speech was written for me. Took a, you know, a look at it and I decided, nope, I'm not going to give this

you know, traditional speech. And I took a look at a memoir that the chaplain at Yale University wrote a memoir and it was entitled Once to every Man is based on Him of the Church, and the hymn goes, you know, once to every Man comes a moment to decide and I thought about it for a while and I set up this is my moment. Uh am I going to do the traditional I'm going to tell him what I really I think and and hopefully start a debate.

And that's what I was trying to do. In the speech, I said we had to debate the question of whether we should decriminalize drugs. And uh, by the time I got back from Washington where the speech was, you know, it's only forty five minutes away from Baltimore. But by the time I got back, the AP was running headline, uh, Baltimore mayor supports legalizing drugs. Um So that started me and involved in a discussion that continued for the twelve years that I was in office and beyond. Yes, yeah,

that's for sure. Now, I think it's important for our listeners to realize that back in you know, what happened was if you just called for a debate about the harms that the draw Gore was doing, you were more or less instantly labeled legalizer and conflated with a libertarian legalized and so that attack that Kurt You're out there arguing for legalizing Uh, it was very hard when that's onslaught came in the media. Uh, you know what, what what was your first reaction. I knew that there would

be strong reaction locally. I didn't realize that I would be involved in a firestorm throughout the country. I knew the how the local reaction was going to play out. And the reason was there was a consensus throughout the country that the drug problem was primarily a crime problem and that the way to address it was through the

criminal justice system. Uh. And locally, for me in Baltimore, I could tell having talked to my constituents, white black, Um, we did not have a large Latino population at the time, primarily whites and blacks in Baltimore, And to a person, they believed that, uh, we should solve this problem more police, more incarceration, that that was the best way to do it. So just even raising the question about an alternative, UH

seemed totally heretical. And UM, I had a number of people that wanted me to, you know, go to the train station and be under the train uh time. But you know, through a great deal of conversation back and forth, you know, slowly but surely, people's minds began to change.

But you know, one thing I did learn in the process that one of the reasons that a number of national figures, congress people, for example, who supported a debate, one of the reasons they didn't say anything that they run every two years, and so it's so easy to demonize a person. And I had the luxury of having a four year term, so I could talk to people about this over you know, the next three and a half years before I faced reelection, and that made all

the difference in the world, you know. And I'll say it, I mean, obviously these memories are going to be even more vivid for me than for you because it places it's a prominent role in my life. But you know, I'm thirty one, you know, assistant professor, finishing my first year of Princeton teaching your thirty eight, barely into your

first year as mayor, and I remember our first conversation. Um, you and I had both been invited to go on Nightline, Ted Copple's Nightline show, which was the most famous and widely watched you know TV political show, you know, really in the late twentieth century in America, and we were going to be debating Charlie Wrangle, the you know, Harlem congressman who was saying that what we were saying was outlandish.

And soon you and I had a preliminary talk, and the first time we actually saw one another was actually on camera in May for that Nightline episode, you and I debating, debating wrangle. But what I'm curious about is did you ever contemplate walking it back? I mean, you must have lots of advisers saying, Kurt, roll this thing back. I mean, you know you gotta go. Yeah, this is going to destroy your political career, this is gonna be whatever.

Did you ever consider that? No. Once I was out there, I knew that, uh, you know, I had made an important decision. And I certainly knew that I had made a career decision, and that I had cut off some options for myself in terms of future political career. But I believe very strongly in this. It was tearing our community apart. And uh, I knew that the status quo wasn't acceptable, so there had to be a different way.

What I didn't know at the time, uh, And and I did criticize myself with this, UM I should have

initially proposed an alternative approach. It was much later that I started you know, learning about what was happening, you know, with the Dutch and and the Portuguese and things like that, and what was going on in Zurich that they're they're in fact were alternatives, except many of those barely existed, you know, I mean even talking about a kinder, gentler drug war, which was a little bit about what we

were doing. I mean you may not know this, but um, this past summer, I had a very precocious kid named Joey Kaufman who was my intern for the podcast, and he got an interest in the drug issue in part because he was in some contest that Kennedy Library in Boston does this Profiles Encourage contest um, where you know, high school kids pick out somebody and write an essay about them. And actually you were very generously agreed, yet you let Joey interview you. Last year he wrote a

very good essay. It turned out nobody had ever submitted your name for Profiles of Courage before, but this past year, in fact, two of the fifteen semifinalists were both essays about you. Kurch smoke at the Kennedy Center. So I mean, it's nice to know that, you know, there's a new generation coming up that can kind of look back and appreciate the courage that you showed in doing what you did back then. No, I certainly didn't know that. And uh, as I said, you know, what I was trying to

do was to stimulate the oak A debate. I just knew what we were doing then was not working. And not only wasn't it working, it was causing more harm than good. But I really didn't have a solution. But at the time that I was being criticized for my statements, I kept thinking about a quote from mary O Cuomo. Uh, then Governor Cuomo once said that politician must distinguish between ideas that sound good and ideas that are good and sound.

And I've just criticized myself for not um having a good and sound alternative to the war and drugs at the time that I made the critique, right, Well, I mean, look, let's let's get into this a bit, because when I'm thinking back to that period, you know, you and I go on Nightline. It's and you were, in some respect is becoming nationally known. You know, people are going, you know, what's that mayor schmoke been smoking or smoking or something

like that. Um, But you know. Then. I remember I was on Larry Kane debating a senator to motto, the Republican senator from New York. You are on a hundreds of TV shows. You and I both land up on Donna Hue, The New York Times, Washington Post, Front Page, Time, Magazine, Newsweek. I mean, the major media outlets, all in the midst of all their drug war coverage, they took a little break to say, and here's a small host of characters

who are stepping out. And now we weren't alone. I mean, the fact of the matter is you and I were the two most prominent people stepping out, but there was a few police chiefs, former police chief Joe McNamara who had been in Kansas City and San Jose Anthony Booza, So we weren't totally alone on this stuff. Yet on the other side, I mean, it was just monumental opposition,

you know, Ted Copple. Besides, after having us on a few months later to do a big old our Town Halls, I imagine national television, major network, a three hour, four hour special on this issue, and you and I are on there. I think you were on my video and I was on there William Buckley, the Commissioner Customs, Jesse Jackson. Then they brought on a whole host of other characters, including Charlie Wrangle and Alan Dershowitz and you name it.

And I remember I'm sitting between Jesse Jackson and Charlie Wrangle and I hear one of them say to the other boy, that's a one term may or if I've ever seen one. And I kind of say, I said, don't don't bet on it, don't bet on it. And then there was, of course the congressional hearing that happened in that fall where Charlie Wrangle you would call for congressional hearings. Charlie Wrangle felt obliged to have a hearing.

As you might expect, he loaded the entire first two hours when the cameras were there with all the antis, gave you a brief moment while interrupting you. But in all of that, did you have any direct relationships? I mean, did did Wrangle and You ever speak directly apart from on the media. Did Jesse Accident you ever speak directly? We did other prominent American politicians at the time ever

speak directly with you about the issue. Um not in that the first three and a half years after you know, after my statement, In fact, my my congressman, um who you know, a protocol when you have hearings in Washington, your congressman or senator usually introduces you and my congressman then KWASI and fumy Uh did let them know my name, but he's spent most of the time making sure they understood that he didn't share my views on the the issue. The only time I talked to any of the national

politicians was in a debate type setting. UM. No kind of quiet um a discussion, you know, or somebody saying to me, you know, what what do you mean by this? Uh? Because as you recall, the country and the national political scene was moving towards um A crime bill that was going to be very, very harsh. So there was still basically a feeling that we can prosecute our way out of this problem, and it just needed you know, more police resources, more incarceration, more for the d e A. UM.

So there was not uh an opportunity from a much debate and and I must say that Ethan, looking back on it, I remember going on uh some of those national TV shows, and I just felt that we really weren't having a discussion that in some way, uh, we're just being kind of ambushed on the programs. And so I had one invitation several months into my discussion from a young woman in Chicago named Oprah Winfrey was having a show about this, and much to Masha Grant, I

turned down that infotation. Oh my god. Well, the one that I remember, well, the one, the one you didn't turn down was Phil Donna You. And for our listener to understand, Phil Donna You was the most prominent talk show host back for decades, and you and I are there. I remember Lester grin Spoon from Harror Medical School was on there, and I remember, you know, both of us were struggling to find the right language to talk about this, right. You know, you didn't want to talk about legalization to

something said. I didn't like the language of legalization either, although people kept tagging me because that people instantly associated with a free for all and a free market, and you know, you'd be talking about decriminalization sometimes, you you know,

try to get into the medicalization language. And I remember that Donna You show somebody I don't know whether Donna You, who was on our side, but maybe he was provoking you or some of the audience, and all of a sudden you started going in with the analogy used to alcohol prohibition, and you started sounding kind of radical. Uh, And I mean I could see it was always you know, on the one hand, you understood that most of this was a problem created by prohibition. But I remember worrying

about you at that Dot A U show. I said, boy, Kurt's getting more heat I've ever seen him. He's getting more radical I've ever heard on. But when I think about your struggling with to finding the right words and the right language to put your views out there, do you recall your evolution or your thoughts about that at the time. Well, I do, because I was getting a

bit frustrated that people weren't engaging in debate. They were just throwing conclusions at me, and I was trying to come up with a way that would get folks to really see that there were multiple sides to this problem, that it wasn't just strictly a crime problem. And you know, and I recall um at one of those shows saying that four thousand people died last year from smoking cigarettes and there were no known deaths recorded for smoking marijuana,

just for inhaling marijuana. And of course somebody got up from the audience and said that his daughter had died by an automobile accident of somebody who was smoking marijuana and drove into her, and that was completely different point. But uh it got you know, applause and uh people, you know, failing to really hear what I was I was trying to say. And over time even I came up with this idea of going to what I thought

would be skeptical audiences and asking them three questions. And that that's how I came to that of uh, you know, going in and not saying I want to talk to you about reform right now. I simply go to the audience and I'd say, do you think that we've won the war on drugs? Do you think that we're winning Do you think that doing more the same over the next decade will win the war and drugs? And I said, if you can't answer yes to any of those questions,

would you consider alternatives? We'll be talking more after we hear this ad h. I think you also, maybe we're the originator of the line. If we're going to have a war on drugs if should be headed not by the Attorney general but by the surgeon general. That was a good one. But you but you did reference the prohibition analogy from time to time, or I did. That

was one way of getting people to to understand it. It. I find though, that the prohibition analogy has become more credible in the twenty one century with the opioid problem, when more and more Americans are seeing neighbors like themselves

with a drug problem. So I see more of an acceptance of the that analogy, uh now than I did what way back in Now, you know, apart from UM the national stage, where it's obvious these guys were not talking with you directly, UM locally, they had to be talking with you directly, and you were dealing with members of your cabinet, You were dealing with leaders of the black churches, I think, including when you're related to UM, you're dealing with law enforcement. So you know, what was

it like dealing with folks in Baltimore in those early years. Well, fortunately for me, I had to really outstanding health commissioners uh Dr Maxie Collier UM and then Dr Peter Billinson, and both of them were very supportive of UH, the idea of treating this as a public health problem rather

than a criminal justice problem. They were strong advocates for public health intervention and they helped me to come up with some ideas that I could present UH to UH our local legislators about a different approach to the problem. And as you know, Ethan, I began to explain to UH local legislators that, UM, when we talked about the drug problem, it wasn't just a matter of addiction. UH. Yes, there's the criminal aspect, but also AIDS was a huge issue.

And I indicated that, you know, with the help of our public health commissioners, that one of the things that we could do to address the AIDS issue was to have a needle exchange sterile syringe exchange program in Baltimore. And that is how I started to engage UH state and local elected officials because our health commissioners, UM and I really wanted to have this needle exchange program to reduce the spread of AIDS in Baltimore, and we felt

that we could do it without increasing drug use. But that was a discussion that we had to have with the state legislators because there was a state law that prevented having a needle exchange program. Um and it, you know again, took us three years to convince people to give us the pilot authorization for a pilot program. But without the help of our health commissioners, I'm not sure I could have ever persuaded them. People were skeptical. Most

folks thought that there was a crime problem. But it took quite a while to persuade even my own staff that this was a direction that we should go in. And once again without Maxi Colli, Dr Collier and Dr Balance and it would have been an uphill battle for me. What about the church leaders were you were you getting invited into explain yourself at churches in Baltimore? I was. I was getting invited to the churches. The ministers were generally opposed. I had some small support for the idea

of reform because there were two things that were going on. One, they were starting to see this increase in incarceration of black men and the disruption that that was causing to family life, so that was a concern. And then a number of people indicated that they were burying Uh they were, you know, having more funerals for younger and younger people

because of AIDS. And so those two things started to get some you know, different thinking on this, but generally I was invited to just to to give my point of view. So that was important that they would at least let me come in to have conversations even when

they disagreed. And and ultimately though UH, as you know Ethan, it was because of a change in opinion of the leading clergy organization UH in town after about three years of debate, that they came down with me to Annapolis to testify in favor of giving us the authority to have a needle exchange program. It had a huge impact on the legislators and was one of the reasons that

we were able to get that pilot program implemented. Yeah, well, you know, so now we were not alone back then in another sense, apart from the small handful barely one handful of of other elected leaders and others who were stepping out, there was the creation of an organization called

the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember their first meeting I went to in London in nineteen eighty seven, founded by Arnold tree Back who was an academic at American University, and he was had been born in late twenty late twenties and you older than us. And then the other his partner in this was Kevin Z's and a lawyer who had been the briefly the head of Normal in earlier years, and they organized the Drug Policy Foundation. Remember that first

conference in night in d c Uh. There actually were a few members of Congress, and they helped bring together academics, they bring some emerging activists. People came in from Europe who were beginning to introduce the harmonduction ideas, and in Liverpool, in the Netherlands, etcetera like that. And I, Karl, I'll tell you, Um, I actually was scrolling around last night online and I found your speech to that first conference

is un c span you can dig it out. In fact, I had introduced you, um, and I remember you're saying, my guy, this is like the first friendly audience, the first chance I get to to preach to the choir on all of this. So I imagine that must have felt nice to at least find some receptive company who regarded you, you know, like I did, as a leader and a hero in all of this. Well, I don't recall exactly what I said, but I do remember that it was totally refreshing to actually have people talking about

the pros and cons the complexity of the problem. That was really refreshing, rather than they have people take, you know, just one view and dismissed, you know, an opposing view. Uh. And like you mentioned about the European situation on needle exchange, we had the chief of police from Rotterdam come to testify at our legislature and to explain to people how his program operated in the in fact that it did not increase the number of people using drugs, nor did

it increase crime in Rotterdam. And so, you know, getting the global perspective was extremely important, uh in making some progress and drug policy reform in this area. Hmm. Well, so let me have another issue here, which is that I remember later in a eight I get a phone call from a ex former District attorney of Philadelphia, a

guy named ed Rendell uh. And ed Rendell subsequently lands up running from mayor Philadelphia, becoming two time mayor Philadelphia, governor or two time governor of Pennsylvania, the head of Democratic Government Association. So he becomes very very prominent in he had just finished being d a. He was, you know, not particularly prominent. He calls me up on that Princeton, and he says, you know, we're gonna have a form here, and I think Southeast Philly with a black part of Philly,

and we have Kirchmo coming. But he asked me to call you because he felt it would be good to have an ally there. And so you and I show up there and it must have been fifty people from that part of Philadelphia, I think I and one or two of the other speakers. It was an entirely black audience apart from us, and people were standing up there and saying, may or smoked, you bring that stuff to Philadelphia. We're gonna run you out of here on a rail.

And what I when I look back, what I realized is that the language you and I I don't think you did. I don't think I did. Back in the late eighties, early nineties, we did not talk about this

as a racial justice issue, right. I mean, if you look at what Black lives matter, when you know, one of the great things about Black Lives Matter is that when they emerged some years ago, and for me, it's this incredibly refreshing thing because finally you have a kind of black you know, new generation civil rights group that is embracing drug policy reform, and many of the arguments that they were saying were remarkably similar to what we had been saying back before they were born, when they

were just you know, infants. But we did not use the racial justice argument. And I know that in my case, you know, if I did, you know, it would be like, what do you you know, you white Princeton intellectual. No, what do you know about drugs doing our community? The fact that you were out there, as a black man, former chief procedutors saying this was powerful. But I don't recall you framing this as a racial justice issue for at least the first number of years. I wanted to

reflect on that for a bit. Yeah, that that's absolutely correct, And um, I guess I won't say it was a failure to raise that issue because I thought that what I was talking about substantive change in drug policy was you know, where are needed to focus. But I was struck at a conference much later. It was after I was out of office. I was actually dean at the Howard Law School, so that had to be two thousand four or five. I was on a program with Michelle Alexander,

the author and the new gym crew and UM. One of the statements that she made on the panel was that there were no no African American politicians UH speaking about the need to reform drug policy. And I kind of looked at the moderator of the panel and UH, I didn't say anything. I said, well, maybe she met

somebody who was currently in office. But later on it was clear to me that she was unaware of comments that I had made as mayor because I didn't frame the issue in the way she framed it most succinctly and clearly UH in her outstanding book. But I certainly didn't frame the discussion in that same way. But at the time, you know, I thought the most important thing was to getting people's mind those three questions, to get them the question whether the drug war made sense, and

whether they were open to consider some alternatives. UH. That that was what I thought was most important at the time. And I think one reason we didn't use the racial justice frame is because so many black leaders and others at that time would basically reject it. They were arguing that we need the drug war, we need more cops, we need more of this, and needle exchange is not the right thing in all of this, and so I mean you were dealing with that in Baltimore right in

your face all the time. Well, that's correct. And when you look at the number of people, particularly Congressman who voted for the crime bill, although uh so many of them twenty years later said they regretted it, but at the time they were reflecting the very strong views of their constituents, and they were looking at the drug problem is mainly a supply issue. That is, drugs were being

brought into the community. They were being supplied from others, whether it was other countries or people from other states, and that law enforcement, if they really wanted to, if they really had the resources, could stop that supply. That was that was the primary viewpoint as supposed to looking at the appetite for uh the drugs that demand aside, and we have proportionately a very few resources going into

dealing with demand and trying to get people treatment. So at the time it was difficult to raise this as a racial justice matter when the census white and black than others. Was it was a crime problem. Let's put more resources in the criminal justice slowly but surely a change. Now. I want to bring up with you one little touchy issue that happened. Right, So now you're eleven years in office. You got one year ago. Peter bill Andsen is still

your health commissioner. Been doing a great job helping moving forward the harm reduction stuff. I organized a meeting in my office is in U and it's a meeting about trying to get heroin prescription trials going in the US, because by that time, first to switch and then then then the Dutch and the Germans and others were starting programs like methanon maintenance, but allowing people for whom methanon didn't work, to come into a clinic like a high

end methodon clinic and get pharmaceutical heroin. And you had been out there publicly putting putting that out as an example of one of the things that could be done. Peter comes to our meeting, he's all gung ho. He goes back and he gives an interview and he says, we got to start something like that in Baltimore. And I remember what happened he said we, And people said, well,

that must mean the Smoke administration. And when when Peter was actually talking about we, the city of Baltimore, in the universities here, and I remember you had to rope him in and pull them back. So at that point it was tricky, huh. It was still sensitive. And what I said to Peter was that it's taken us a long time from to get people to agree with us that there needs to be drug policy reform. But Baltimore had a long history after World War Two with heroin,

and it was older people. It was some older criminal gangs really that had died out over time, but there was still among older voters recollection about heroin. And I just said, Peter, you're getting ahead of me, and that people who were starting to be supportive of the direction that we're moving in will stop and and neither reverse course or at least um won't let us continue our efforts because heroin scares them. And that's what I said. So, yeah, that I did have my uh finger and the wind

sometimes on political issue. I admit that that I didn't blame you for it. Then I got it. I mean, it was really something that JOHNS Hopkins University of Maryland should have been doing, and even in Europe, and it started off not with mayors taking the lead, but oftentimes with research institutions and such doing those trials first before

it ever became a real policy. I was very fortunate to have great health institutions downtop in School of Public Health UM really did a wonderful job and studying our needle exchange program because, as you know, at the time, the federal government still had a law that prevented institutions that were receiving federal dollars from running needle exchange programs. Where they they were the group that did the study.

And after the pilot period, which was a four year period, we were able to go to the legislature with the Hopkins School of Public Health data and show them the dramatic impact of reducing the spread of AIDS and not increasing the number of drug or intravenous drug users. And so uh they passed legislation allowing us to continue the needle exchange program. And I think it's important for people to know that when we got the pilot program, we were able to get it with uh just one vote

that made the difference. Uh there um in in the legislature when we went back after four years, everybody voted force except for one person. So UM, it was a dramatic it was based on applied research I remember the Congressional Black Caucus that you know, one year is calling a needle exchange genocide or something, and a few years later is calling for the resignation of the drugs are if he won't support needle exchange. So you did see

that major transition the nineties. One thing you may not know, Kurt, is that even back when you were mayor, JOHNS. Hopkins, together with Columbia University in New York and Wayne State in Detroit, were three universities in America that actually were giving heroin to people in their research trials. They had gotten permission from the D eight and imported from Europe.

They were they were paying people who were illicit drug heroin users to come live at a clinic for a few weeks and then be tested for what heroin was doing to them. So, in some respects, you know, all of the obstacles about giving heroin to human subjects about

importing it had been resolved. It was just the idea of doing an experiment where it wasn't just to evaluate the impact of heroin and the human body, but to see if a maintenance trial could actually help people stabilize their lives in the way that it was clearly working in Europe. That was the really difficult thing to cross. And it's something that no American university to this day has done. Even its has become standard operating procedure and

half a dozen European countries and Canada. You know, So hey, listen, let's go back to the political thing here. You know, I remember like thinking, okay, well maybe, and people were saying you've cut off your chances for statewide office here. Um, but I remember just wishing you had a senator, Senator Sarbanes.

It was a respected senator, but it wasn't lighting the place on fire, and just wishing that he would retire so that you could run for Senate because I mean, I was among a huge number of people who thought you would have made a fantastic member the U. S. Senate. I mean, how much did you enter that possibility back? The Senate was the only office that beyond the mayor, that I contemplated pursuing. I spent some time in when

there was an open governor's seat in Maryland. My wife and I went around throughout the state just taking a look at the issues that the governor has to deal with. But I decided, uh, No, that's not what I wanted to pursue. That if I have an opportunity, I would like to become involved in setting national policies, and of

course drug policy being one of them. So um my um last election was so I was leaving office in December nine and I thought that there was a possibility that Senator to Cebring's was not going to run again. Then that the next Senate race was two thousand, but

then he decided to do another term. And so that's when I decided to pursue, uh, some other interest that I had in the academy, and fortunately I was able, after a brief stint in the law firm, to get the job as dean of the Howard University School of Law.

Let's take a break here and go to an ad You fast forward in the years two thousand and there was some meeting of mayors at the White House with Bill Clinton, and one of the other mayors who was there was a real drug warrior, Richard Daily, the son of the other famous Daily, you know, the Daily family that kind of ran Chicago for a big chunk of the twentieth century. And I think you raised a little

contrary viewpoint there. I was wondering what got into you because you weren't talking quite as much about the drug issue at that point. I mean, your frame had really been I want to make Baltimore the city that reads. You wanted to make literacy. You're real focused, you wanted to really put that out front. But nonetheless, what got into you there again, what was happening, uh, was a lack of debate really about what was going on. And

so we had a moment. There was a little luncheon and Mayor Daily made a comment to President Clinton and then I've raised my hand and I said, the miss President, do you realize that this conference is being sponsored by a tobacco company? And you should have seen the look

on Mayor daily space when I said that. But President just looked at me, and I said, I've raised that because of the fact that you have done an outstanding job over the last few years in reducing the level the number of people who smoke in the United States,

and you've done that using public health strategies. I said, sir, if I'm standing here in in my left hand holding a green leafy substance that your CDC says killed four thousand people um last year and in my right hand is a green, leafy substance that there are no known deaths from smoking that, which one do you think ought to be criminalized? And um, he just kept looking at me, and so, I you know, which is okay? Smoke, keep

talking and then sit down. Um, so I said, of course, the left hand has tobacco, which has killed four hundred thou people year, and right hand is marijuana, which no known deaths from smoking. So I said, sir, I just urge you to consider using the public health strategies that have been so effective that with the tobacco, to use that rather than criminal justice m the marijuana. He finally got up to speak and started the launching into a discussion about his brother, Roger. I believe his name was

who did go to jail? Bill Clinton's Bill Clinton's brother Roger that went to jail because of a drug charge. And he believed that that drug sentence actually saved his life. But you know, so it was it was a very political response. Of course, nobody expected me to speak at that. I wasn't on the program to speak, but I was just prompted because of the fact that, you know, it was just ironic that there we were at a conference dealing with substance abuse, and it was sponsored by a

tobacco company. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no kidding Clinton. I think he really wanted to do the right thing in those first six months in office, and then I think he looked at members of Congress Democrat members of Congress, and they basically weren't going for it. I think they said, hey, you have anybody told us, don't let the Democrats get out flanked by the Republicans on being tough on drugs

and tough on crime. Well, let me ask you. Maybe this is a bit of a source subject, but your successor, I believe his mayor, who then became governor was Martin O'Malley and who tried to run for president. And I will say I was no fan of him. I remember there was time when he was governor and he had promised deep in the legislature he would sign some very moderate sentence and reform bill and the last minute he basically broke his promise, I think, persuaded by a bunch

of prosecutors he had hired as his chief aids. But what was your relationship like with good old Martin O'Malley. Well, we didn't really talk a great deal about policy matters. I tried to give him a very good transition. I did a report form that he could kind of follow the um policy developments easily in the city. But to a great extent. He ran for office criticizing my approach to public safety and specifically focused on our police commissioner,

guy named Tom Fraser. So there really wasn't much to talk about and h and that that first term. It was later when he started making, you know, indicating that he definitely was going to run for president, that we had good conversations about policy. But during his first term as mayor, uh, we hardly spoke. So, Kurt, if you were writing a memoir, what illicit drug use would you be admitting to other than has at the time, um, when I was a student at Oxford, that that would

be about it. So only outside the country, a little like William Buckley on his infamous sailboat, you know, off the coast. You know, so he wasn't an American jurisdiction. Uh huh. You know. Well, and listen around those early two thousands, this TV show comes out the Wire, which at the time it never won an Emmy, but it's since gone down in history as one of America's greatest

television shows. David Simon, you know, the creator, and somebody who was a guest on this podcast and referred to you as sort of a you know, a prophet before your times or maybe that. I guess the prophet is always before their times, but some some language like that. But what did you think of The Wire? Now? I I really thought it was an excellent show. I know my successor hated it, thought that it just put Baltimore

in such a bad light. But I thought what David and Ed Burns, who is his um you a co creator, former policeman, that they were trying to say to the country, Um, this is a really complex problem. Yes it's in this city, but we're really not focused on Baltimore. We're focused on the drug issue. So I took it, uh that way. I know it was a very popular show in Europe because I I was asked once to write an article for The Guardian comparing the real Baltimore to The Wire,

which I did. But I know for many many people in our city they started to not have a lot of pride in that show because when they left town and go and would go visit people all they would talk about related to Baltimore with the wire, So it did have somewhat of a negative impact as it related to our tourism industry. But I thought it was very important, uh show, and I appeared on it a couple of times because, as you know, David at a little impish sense of humor, so he had me, uh as the

health commissioner to the mayor. I played the health commissioner to the mayor, for which I had to join the screen actors guilts. I'm a union member. Yeah, yeah, Well, I think also you had a line in there, right. It was Charlie Wrangle back in the day had called you the most dangerous man in America. And I think one of your lines was the guy playing the mayor

while you're playing health commissioner. Uh, you know, has this little there's this little police experiment Hamsterdam, a kind of needle park in Baltimore, and your line to him was to the mayor was better watch al Clarence will be calling you the most dangerous man in America. I gotta kick out of that little play on Charlie Wrangle's assault

on you there. Yeah. I think you also made the point that it was, you know, excellent fantastic TV show, but that people, you know, should no more assume that was a real life depiction of all of Baltimore than they would watch The Sopranos and imagine that was a

real life depiction of all of New Jersey. Yeah, and the earlier show that David did, uh, homicide Life in the Streets, had a scene in which the actor comedian Robin Williams played a tourist to Baltimore along with his wife and they we're going to a baseball game and uh, the wife gets shot in the TV show and I was mayor at the time. Uh, and our phones just

get rang off the hook. The people thought that they had been a murder at Oriole Park and so yeah, sometimes, uh, those TV shows get a little close to a reality there. So yeah, no exactly. Well, look just to jump for more more recent years, I mean, for our listeners to know, you know, Kurt stayed involved. He joined the board of the Drug Policy Foundation when then that merged with my

organization the nineties linusmiths Inner create Drug Policy Alliance. Kurt stayed on the board of directors for many years remained a major commitment when he stepped off, he joined the honorary board. The organization now has an award that is jointly named for him and another leader for accomplishment in the field of law. So I mean, Kurt will be forever associate it with this now. The last time we saw one another, it's very vivid for me. It was

January seventeen, five years ago. It was the day before I was about to tell my board that I was stepping down as executive director and the chairman the board I were lass year. We had agreed. You know, we've been playing this out for five months. We kept it very secret. But there you were. I hadn't seen you in a year or two. We're having a two hour

coffee one morning, and I remember confiding in you. You were the only one of the only people I knew who I had told beforehand, having been sworn into secrecy. We haven't seen each other since that time. But a couple of years ago, I get a phone call from my buddy Rick Doblin, the head of MAPS and Multiple Discitary Associated Psychologic Studies, which is leading the way on the legalization of m d m A for PTSD, Ethan, can you introduce me to Kirt smoke. Well, what's that about. Well,

there's this fellow named Bob Parsons. So I organized the conference call and you and Rick Doblin and I had a very nice call and just say a little something about Bob Parsons and what if anything is coming to that. Well, Bob Parsons, people will know his company, but he's a co founder of the Internet domain UH company, Go Daddy.

Bob is from Baltimore. He's a graduate of the University of of Baltimore and Uh he was a marine Vietnam veteran who has overcome an awful lot because of that experience in Vietnam and has been a proponent of psychedelics and the treatment of PTSD and UH, Bob continued to be a very strong supporter of the University of Baltimore. Asked me to meet and to see if any of our professors would be interested in research in that area,

and uh they are. And then so we have some research going on at the University of Baltimore, but we're looking into it and working um with Rick and at the request of about Parsons, who is a very strong supporter of this. I think that's great, cart I mean Rick may also mentioned that some of your faculty and students have actually gone through the MAPS training so that they can become psycholic assisted psychotherapists, when in fact the

f d A approves this treatment hopefully. Uh, I guess if not the end of this year, then sometimes next year. So there's no fully escaping your attachment and connection to this issue. Um. But Karl, I I just had to say, I've loved this kind of romped down through memory lane. But I think that what you did was really truly

did make history, and it really is. I mean, I know I embarrassed you by saying this, but you know I stood up at this conference in Baltimore in front of hundreds of people just recently and I said, you know,

I think about my heroes. You know, we think, you know, I have the same famous heroes many people though, you know, you know, you know Mark Marl Luther King and Nelson Mandela and uh vak Lov Hovel, you know, the famous check playwright in First President and Um but I put Kurt Smoke in that group simply because what he did in stepping out and sticking to his guns back at

a time of mass national estheria. You know, it's like you look at the one person who voted against the Vietnam War back in the day, the one person who voted against the you know, invasion of Iraq or whatever. I mean, what you did had a moral equivalence to that, you know. Bless you, and thank you for the courageous leadership that you showed on that and also for the partnership that we had for so many years. Well, thank you, Ethan.

It's great talking to you. And uh, as I've said to people many times, you know, without your writing and research, which I felt this though, I was just an ambassador for some of your ideas and uh very fortunate um to connect with you and uh uh connect with the organizations that are bringing about reform. And I oftentimes wonder that my life might have been quite different but for your stepping out the way you did and adding an

element of real world political legitimacy to it. I don't know that this thing would have taken off, you know, either my own personal life or more broadly so now. It really was historically of great significance. So thank you ever so much Kurt for joining me and my listeners on Psychoactive. All the best to you, if you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman is produced by noaham

Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozolla Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw

and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with the award winning journalist, author and documentary filmmaker Martin to go about his book Bop Apocalypse, Jazz raised the beats and drugs are the misconceptions that you know, people have about heroin and jazz is that these guys would shoot dope, get on the stand and like be high out of their minds and play. No, that's not what was going on.

What was going on with that, there's drug which had created this metabolic need for it was being satisfied, and so that's what would allow them the kind of stability to be anchored, you know, back again in their music. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.