Hattie Wells on Ibogaine Treatment

any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna revisit the issue of I Begain. I begain the extraordinary psychedelic substance from the emergence from the Aboga plant in Gabone. We did talk about this about a year ago on the episode with the Nitri Mugianis. But I wanted to come back to this and I asked around who should I have as a guest And the name that kept popping up is Hattie Wells. Hattie lives in the UK. She's been a psychedelic practitioner UM for many years. She's

an ethnobotanist. She's also been involved in drug policy reform. She's got over twenty years experience researching and working with psychedelic She's been an ib GAIN treatment provider in the UK for several years now, and she's also working on a couple of clinical trials, one involving I Began, the other one about a drug called five M e O d MT which we've not yet really gotten into on

psychoact yet. And she's worked for a TRANSFORM, which is the UK based drug policy form organization, and for the Beckley Foundation headed by Amanda Fielding, and also now working for ice EARS, which is one of the leading organizations in the world involved in re arch on psychedelics and advocacy. It's been the host of the World Ayahuasca Congress, and I guess I should finally say that she's a director of the Breaking Convention, which is the UK's largest convention

on psycholic consciousness. So had do you. Thank you so much for joining me and my listeners today on Psychoactive. Hi Ethan, thank you so much for inviting me. Okay, well, let's start off by just talking about the basics of I be Gaine, and I'll be quite frank with our audience. I've always been scared of iby Gain. I mean, I've tried many of the psychedelics, even those that are reputation for causing to throw up or things like that, But but I began, you know, it just seems bigger and

batter and maybe more powerful in its therapeutic value. I know that some people will do it at lower doses for kind of self exploration and spiritual insight, but it's most famous for its use in the treatment of addiction and use at higher doses. What do we know among the thousands or tens of thousands of reports of people having done this, about the variety and commonality among experience

with with high dose I begain in terms of treating addiction. Okay, So even it's interesting that you think of it as the kind of bigger, badder psychedelic because actually, as far as psychedelics go, it's a relatively benign and the agin in terms of its um in terms of its strength of kind of visionary experience. So the experience itself is characterized by what people terms sort of waking dreams, internal visions, but most of that is with eyes closed. So it's

actually quite easy to pull yourself out of it. And you know, if you don't like what you're seeing. To open your eyes and you know, you don't have the kind of pronounced ego dissolution or dismemberment or typical sort of peak or mystical experience that you might have on other psychedelics. So in that respect, you know, it's perhaps not as daunting as people have people tend to think

or have made out. But obviously the length of the experience, you know, is is for most people somewhat daunting because it does last, you know, depending on the dose you take.

But if we're talking about kind of flood dose or saturation, does the higher end, which is anything really above twelve milligrams peculogram to twenty milligrams peculiar gram that people don't tend to go that high anymore, but that um that can last anywhere from sort of twenty four thirty six forty eight hours really, So that is the piece that I think, you know, might make Ibergain seem somewhat daunting.

You are sort of immobilized, so you'll be lying down on a bed for at least at least sort of sixteen eighteen hours without moving, and you can't move, and that that is definitely an intense experience, and many people purge, many people do vomit it, but that's not you know, that's not guaranteed. Some people don't. Some people will go through without vomiting, without any kind of purging. I mean, in terms of needing diapers, I don't, you know, that's

not something that's not something that I've experienced. Most people can get up and walk to the toilet if they need to go to the toilet, with a bit of assistance, obviously, with a bit of assistance, because your balance is definitely affected. Balance and movement is dramatically affected. So you might think that you put your leg in one place, but actually you're putting it in a different place. Your your whole

sense of where you're placing things changes dramatically. And then I've heard it also described as like acid times a million. I mean, is that bullshit? Or it really depends which lens you're looking at it through. Well, that's what I was trying to say earlier. You know, I would say that's that's that's not anything that I've seen or experienced personally.

You know, acid, your visuals can be completely overwhelming to the extent that you you know, especially high dose of acid that you can't see anything in the room and

everything's melting. You would never get that kind of experience on I Begain, you know, your typical eyebergain experience, although this does probably only happen for half of people, but you know, the experience we talk about is one of a sort of vivid memory recall for the first six to eight hours, a kind of life flashback, as if you're watching your life, you know, on a movie screen or a sort of movie reel, but you're watching it

from an objective point of view. You're not emotionally involved or triggered by that experience. There is some sort of detachment, whereas if you were experiencing those kind of visions on LST or any other kind of classic psychedelic you would be very emotionally involved in that living of those visuals. And that's one of the most common traits of the hy doc Ibergin experience them sort of memory recall in

a kind of detect sort of way. Yeah, So the high do cybergain experience tends to happen in sort of three phases, So you'll have your first kind of you know, six to ten hours, let's say, where it's that kind of thing it's internal visions, waking dream They might be thoughts or stories that are that are you know, depending on how visually oriented you are. They may be visual,

they may not, They may just be thoughts. But it can be kind of life flashback memory, recall, reliving events, understanding the pattern of events, understanding why something happened the way it did, and having some sense of um kind of objectivity around it which helps, which can help you to see things in a different way. That period can also be accompanied by very vivid hallucinations, but that is

in the minority of people. So for myself personally, I did have three D hallucinations more real than anything I've had with any other psychedelic, but I am I am in a real minority, like I don't know many other people that have had that experience, but but it can happen.

You can have very vivid hallucinations, and then the next phase is a is a period of deep introspection, and that's the phase that I think gives I begin a unique character, really sort of sets it apart from all the other psychedelics that we're currently working with and researching. And that after you've had this visual sort of peak experience, you then have this long contemplative, introspective, reflective period where

you're definitely still under the effect. You know what, for me, this period is the bit where you could engage in more psycholitic therapy. I think we might get to that point at some you know, in some stage where that

would be where interesting therapeutic discussions could take place. And then you get another the third phase, which is kind of the residual, where you're still you still might be stimulated because obviously it's a stimulant and it's very hard to sleep on ib again, so you might feel kind of wired. And for people experiencing addiction or substance used to sort of they that third phase tends to be kind of jangly. They don't feel that great because it's

difficult to relax. But you know, that bat phase can also be quite useful for introspection. Just to be a but they're all a bit of a skeptic here, you know. Sometimes you hear this debate, like when people take I don't know if it's ayahuasca or some other psychedelic plants

substance in you know, from South America. The frequency of seeing the jaguar, for example, and the question becomes, this just happens spontaneously even among people have never heard of the association of the psychedelic with the jaguar, or is it somehow kind of implanted in the culture. And with respect to this memory recall, I mean, people are obviously

told beforehand that this is what they might expect. Does that precondition them, you think, to have this type of detached kind of memory recall experience or is it something just you know, even if people are not prepped to know that that it's going to be happening anyway, It's a very interesting question, and I think it's difficult to determine because no one's really looked at that, although actually I did here recently that there has been a study

with other psychedelics looking at that how how the prompts before the experience affect the experience, and that they clearly do. I mean, you would imagine that if you're told X and why is going to happen, that it's more likely that X and why happens, right, And like I said earlier, you know, this vivid memory recal doesn't happen with everybody.

But I think there's also distinction to be made between people using this for addiction, you know, to interrupt their addiction, or people using this for self development, spiritual purposes, curiosity, because the experience differs quite you know, it's quite a pronounced difference between those groups of people. And often, especially if you're you know, you're an opioid user, the psychedelic effects are somewhat blunted, you know, so the visual component

and that memory recal might be blunted. Mhm. And in terms of I mean just speaking, I don't know if this has really been measured in studies as yet, but you're a subjective experience. As a treatment provider. Does a strong memory recall Does that associate with better outcomes for people in terms of dealing with their addiction issues? Or can people have just as good outcomes with just as

great frequency if they don't go through the memory recall element. Yes, so in my experience, I would say that it does. You know that that what I was kind of describing as the archetypal trip, the memory recall, the introspection. You know, those three phases um tended to the stronger, the sort of visionary experience tended to have better long term effects. But you know that's just in my observation of maybe sixty seventy people that I facilitated sessions for and I'm

not aware of it. You know, no one's actually looked at that properly because there's obviously a lack of clinical studies, right right, And so I'm just I mean, I imagine among our listeners just going to be some who are curious about whether or not they should take it, either

for spiritual insight or for a dealing with addiction. I imagine there's even more who have a friend or real NATIV who's struggling with addiction and they want to know if this might be helpful, And a lot of others are just curious about, you know, how this is similar different to the other ones. So just to kind of take us through some of the process and maybe in terms of the treatments that you've provided, Um, what's the product? I mean, first of all, how do people you know,

you know come into contact with you? And then what sorts of clearance do you have to do so that some people are probably told that they're not eligible to do this, and then how is it consumed the setting? Just walk us through all that, Okay, so let's just be clear. So I'm not providing ibergaine treatments in an informal way anymore. I'm just working on a clinical trial.

So you know, there's there's various routes you can take to experiencing iyebergaine, So there would obviously be the clinical trial angle, but there's only a couple of countries where

that's happening, so that's fairly limited at the moment. You know, it's absolutely usual to find an eyebgain provider where there is some sort of medical supervision or assistance because i begain does have cardiac implications and there are risks associated, so it's really important that you're with a provider who understands those risks and who can manage them should they occur um because there's you know, there's there's over a hundred clinics around the world, and some of them are

medically supervised and some are not, and then there's probably tens more of just individuals offering treatments in an informal way. So it's really important to be clear about the cardiac risks and so that you go in informed about them and looking for an appropriate practitioner. But let's say your practitioner is informed about this has medical supervision is going to monitor your vital science, is going to insist that

you have an ECG prior to the experience. Um, I mean preferably that you're monitored with an ECG throughout the experience. But that's quite rare these days, but I would definitely recommend looking for that. So you want to check your heart, and you want to check your liver function really, and you want to check your electrolyte balance. So they're the kind of main safety sort of checks. And what's the

importance of the liver function one? Well, just you know, to see how your liver is functioning, because obviously your liver function will determine how you metabolize the drug, and poor metabolizes, you know, then there's an extra risk of spike levels of of I beginning or I begin having a greater effect on your heart. Really, so you want to be carefully mentioned nor I begin So maybe we should just interject your Is that what I begain becomes in the body once it's consumed or is it? Ye? Yeah,

so I begain it's converted to nor I begain. It's it's it's metabolite, but it lasts much longer in the body and levels of both of them have different implications on cardiac risks UM, so you need to get checked out. I mean, ideally you wouldn't have a history of cardiac problems in your family. UM, you would you know, not have a history of any psychosis. You wouldn't want to be well. Again, different providers are different with this, but

there's certain medications that you'd want to avoid taking. So if you were on them, you'd need to taper off them and have some assistance tapering off them because some drugs will interact negatively with ibergaine. But when you say about interactions, is it like with SR eyes where I think with Ayahuaska you're not supposed to be You're not supposed to be using that. What can you say? So, yeah, S s R E s Ideally, I mean like if I was working, I would want people to come off

their S S R eyes. The risk of I begin with, for your heart is that it can cause something called QT prolongation, which is basically elongating the wave between your queue and your tea waves on your e c G. And that's really about heart contracting and relax xing. So it can lead to kind of an abnormal heart rhythm,

which can lead to a fatality. So if you're on any other drug that is also prolonging your QT intervals, then you would want to you would want to come off them because that plus the iber gains prolongation could cause a significant risk. You just want to eliminate that risk.

So there's a variety of drugs, antihistamines, antipsychotics, antidepressants. Some providers will work with with people on those drugs, but taking all the right precautions like monitoring on any CG the whole way through UM, you know, having assistance at hand should there be any problems. But that's why you need the medical supervision really. And then so aside the kind of medical exclusion, you know, various reasons for medic

for exclusion. You would also want to do some significant preparation and just to get yourself well informed about iber gain and the risks you would be taking and the potential experience you would be having. So any provider would would do some psych education, which is just giving you all that information beforehand, and then you know, ideally and maybe have two or three prep sessions. You'd get to know your provider. You'd want to you'd want to establish

really good rapport. You'd need to feel safe with that person because they're obviously going to be holding space for you during a long and potentially intense experience, and then ensure that they will also offer you some integration after the experience, because you know, this is something that we're

all talking about in psychedelic therapy. The need for integration um not only to be able to integrate a potentially difficult experience, but also to harvest the lessons and insights that you get from from you know, less challenging experience, just to help you kind of land again and move forward with the insights that you've got. We haven't really honed a kind of standard method, and everyone has their own way of doing this, but I think it's really important.

This is one of the reasons that I sort of stepped away from I began treatment years ago was the fact that people would come and have this very profound experience, but if there hadn't been enough preparation or integration, which often is a cost issue people just simply can't afford it.

Then you know that I bega intense to unearth various issues in your life that you've been struggling with and if you go back into your same environment, then you're walking back in and you know you're going to experience various various triggers again. And if there isn't the appropriate integration, you're very likely to just sort of fall back into old patterns, and that may be addiction. If you've come

for addiction interruption. We'll be talking more after we hear this add It's not just about the immediate, you know, coming down from the day after. What we're really talking about for many people sustained period of time, like going to see a psychotherapist or saying like that you're on a weekly basis or a monthly basis, or you know,

checking in leading up to it. Then in terms of uh, I mean people are obviously using ib gain for a variety of addictions, as the opioid one, which I think is the one that's most known for, but also alcohol or stimulants, cocaine, maybe the nicotine. What's the recommendation in terms of abstaining from any of those drugs before the i BE GAIN treatment for how long, how necessary it is, how much does it vary whether it's a stimulant or

an opioid for example. I mean, so again this varies from treatment provider to treatment provider, and some people are much bolder and more allowing of continuing your drug of choice. And it also depends on whether you're going for a

flood dose or a slow dose protocol. But let's kind of maybe the easiest way of explaining it would be to take, you know, to take some examples, so you know, you would basically look at the half life of your drug of choice and you would want to give at least that time period before you take the IEB again. Ideally you'd want to leave twenty four hours really from

your last dose to your eye again. Now, in terms of alcohol, actually I never worked with anyone with an alcohol disorder, and I know that withdrawal from alcohol is a lot more dangerous and it presents with a lot more issues. And I because I've not done a protocol with alcohol, I couldn't I couldn't really speak to that. So let's just eliminate alcohol from this discussion and just

talk about um opioids or stimulants. And with the opioids, is I mean that people are already if it's methanine or or heroin, that they're actually in some state of withdrawal. Often times by the time they take Yeah, so that's what happens. When they come to take the eye again, they will the withdrawal symptoms will probably just be presenting. So the protocol that I used um withdrawal would just

be presenting. I would then administer a testos which is like one to two milligrams of iber gain, and then that would that would sort of take the edge of the withdrawal and it would show us, you know, how the person responded to the iber gain, and then we would then do the flood dose after that, so effectively you don't really enter the withdrawal period. You're just sort

of skirting on the edge of it. M hm hm. Now, I guess the thing that's really maybe most astounding about I be Gain, apart from this kind of detached sort of memory recall, is the fact that it seems to alleviate or even disappear the withdrawal symptoms that once so oftentimes associates with opioid withdrawal. And that's that does not seem to be true of any of the other psychedelics

that are being used in addiction treatment. And so do we have any understanding as yet about what I mean, what that's about, What do we know about that, you know,

interruption of the withdrawal. Well, that's kind of the most astounding thing about iber gain really, and that is how I mean, that's how we discovered ibor gaine's anti addiction sort of potential was because Howard lots of in the sixties um decided to take iber gain in an experimental way with various friends as a psychedelic experience, and he happened to be a heroin user, and he realized after you know, he came down from his iber gain trip

that he hadn't experienced withdrawal and he no longer had any withdrawal symptoms. And there were seven heroin users among his twenty friends who were experimenting with it, and they all experienced the same thing. So there definitely is something to ib again whereby it dramatically reduces withdrawal symptoms, if not eliminates them. And in terms of you know, how that happens, why that happens, we're still not entirely clear. The pharmacology of ibergaine is still you know, it's a

bit blurry. We've got some idea years of of how it works and the various neuro transmitter sites that it targets. But I think as for actually explaining how it stops withdrawal, I think we're still somewhat in the dark mm hmm. But it's pretty well documented now right across thousands of people having this almost miraculous absence of I mean, for

people have been addicted to opioids for many years. People aren't herowing people wanting to you know, who have been on methodine for a long time and wanted getting off it. It's um, I mean, it's it's basically it happens for everybody or almost everybody this this. Uh yeah, I would say, I would say, I mean, in my own experience, probably for kind of eighty of people there. You know, there

are a small number especially methodone users. Actually, you know, long term methodone uses may experience still some withdrawal symptoms, but they're dramatically reduced. Yeah. Well, actually, maybe this is a good place to bring up the study that you're engaged in with icere is right now, right, which is about you know, kind of innovative approach to try and to help people who want to get off method I mean, obviously for many people or our method and it can

be a lifelong medication. It can be very successful, but there are many people, for one reason or another, who do want to get off it. What can you say about that study that you're currently engaged in. Okay, so I'm not actually currently engaged with the i as methodone study. I have done some consultancy with I See is, but I'm actually working with the Demo rex I Begin study, which will be working with opioid us as well. We're still in the healthy volunteer phase, but I can I

can definitely discussed the ICE study a bit. Although they haven't published their results yet, they've got twenty methodone users and they are using a slow dose protocol, which is just worth talking about now because there's I think I've mainly been talking about this sort of flood saturation dose, which is what I worked with, you know, almost twenty years ago, but now people are are moving away from that because of the cardiac implications and because of the

deaths that have occurred. There is a move, I would say, towards this slower dose protocol, which is using I begain in a way to kind of taper down your opioid use. So the I See his study I think gives six doses. It split the group into two groups, and each group receives a dose of iber gain one that one group gets six doses of a hundred milligrams and the other gets an ascending dose, so hundred milligrams then two hundred,

three hundred, six eight hundred. I can't remember how it goes, but they have six doses of an escalating dose, and with each of those doses, they reduce their methodone use by half, so they're effectively tapering down their methodone and also being administered I began at the same time, which you know, supposedly will eliminate the withdrawal symptoms and sort of flood the system over a number of days with iber gain instead of that immediate flood dose, which potentially

has more risks. Mhm. And these are generally people have been fairly stabilized our method on when yeah, yeah, they've been on a method and program and I think, you know, I think I can say they haven't had yeah, they haven't had any adverse events yet, no hospitalized, but no serious adverse events in the hospitalization yet. So and I hear they have very promising results, but it's not published yet. Okay, and what about the study that you're engaged in the UK.

So this is a single dose study. Um it's a Phase one and Phase two A studies, So it's currently unhealthy volunteers and there's four cohorts. So each group will receive first group three milligrams, next group the three milligrams peculogram, next group six milligrams pekulogram, next group nine milligrams pekulogram, and if all of them have been safe and tolerated, then it'll move up to twelve milligrams pekulogram, which is ki of the target dose of a number of clinics

around the world. So we're looking at the tolerable tolerability really and the safety. And there's a lot of um ACG monitoring and looking at the QT intervals throughout the experience to see you see pro kilogram you mean of their own body weight. So in other words, the assumption is that there's reason to believe that the dose should be a reflection of somebody's body weight. Yes, exactly, Why

is that? Well, because I mean, I guess with lots of mental health drugs, psychiatric drugs, they do that they dose according to body weight because each person will will respond in a different way according to a body weight.

I know with the other classic psychedelics they don't do that so much, but I think um with lots of psychiatric drugs they do m So Phase two will then move on to we'll look at the best the sort of maximum tolerated dose and the sort of ideal target dose, and then move on to phase two offering that dose to opioid dependent individuals and then assess again safety, toleer ability, and efficacy. So this this first co this first study. Phase one is thirty participants and then hopefully they'll be

eighty participants among opioid users. So this is really the first well, I mean there's obviously the i c IS study going on, but this is, yeah, this is one of the first Phase one and phase two going together, and especially doing all the card monitoring, which is really crucial I think to getting ibergain licensed. So now let's go to this world of the clinics. I think you mentioned the beginning that there's maybe over a hundred that

we know about around the world. I mean they seem to show up a lot, I think in Mexico and it's a Costa Rica and sometimes the Caribbean. Um, but I guess they've also been in the UK and the Netherlands, Canada, etcetera. Um, what do we know about this network? I mean, are there are there chains? Off? I begin, clinics where one person or owner owns a whole bunch of them in different places. Uh. Does anybody have a kind of list? Is there a directory of these clinics anywhere? Uh? Does?

Some of them have fantastic reputations, have been around for many years? What can you tell us? Yeah, I've never heard about a directory, but that's not a bad idea. Um. And I've not heard of chains either, But it's possible that there maybe you know, a clinic and I think I might have heard that there's you know, some business that has a couple of clinics in Mexico. But there's Yeah, there's not chains yet. I mean Universal Eye again, I

think is attempting to do that. So they're working in Canada and they will be conducting clinical trials in Canada. But that is their idea is to create sort of medicalized clinical model and have clinics around the world. So at the moment, it's more individual clinics with a sort of cl Susta in Mexico, Costa Rica. Like you said, more informal treatment providers around Europe, not so much clinics. There's a clinic in Portugal Tabularrassa UM, and then there's

obviously individual providers as well in Mexico and Canada. There's also clinics in Canada and South Africa and Brazil. So in Brazil and Canada and South Africa and New Zealand. Actually I begains been put on the kind of prescription drug list, which means doctors can prescribe it, so it can Yeah, it can be prescribed in a clinic, so there are obviously that's an easier legal situation for clinics

to develop in. And then in Mexico there are a number of clinics and they get licensed as rehab clinics. Really not licensed for I begain news because I begins not a licensed medicine in Mexico. But um, it's not regulated. So there are places where like government, some kind of regulatory officials are actually checking up on these things or where they need to look at the whole protocol and

give their approval. Yeah, and they're definitely the authorities, local authorities are aware of what the clinics are doing in these places. And these are all either places whether they're on the prescription drug list or where it's unregulated. It's not scheduled drugs. Obviously, in the US I began as a Schedule one drug. No one would get away of doing anything like that there. In the UK we have

the Psychoactive Substance Act, which means that it's legal. It would be legal to consume um ibergain or a boger, but not legal to administer. So clinics are definitely not legal in the UK. And there's no clinics up and running here. Um. And then you know Holland, there's a gray area, so shops openly selling iboga and iboga extracts and providers working. Yeah, So there's and and then there's other countries in Europe where it's banned like in the

United States, Um, Italy, France, New Zealand. I saw pop up. Is it legal in New zeal End? Did anything happening there? Well, so that's the same New Zealand. I think I just included, but maybe I didn't. New Zealand is the same as prescription drugs, so you can, yeah, you can legally prescribe. I began in New Zealand, and there are some clinics there. There are a couple of clinics there that I know of.

There maybe more. And in terms of the International Drug Control system, which has banned some of the psychedelics, whereas I begin in that, so it's not it's not a scheduled drug in the UN conventions, so that eases things up, I see, well, but in in individual countries it is, so it doesn't necessarily use it up. Yeah, right right, depends it depends where you are. I see, and and um. And then the Caribbean I saw, in fact, I know the son of a friend of mine had a successful

I began treatment in the Caribbean. Is it just is it a bunch of different islands or is the same kits or so? Debramash had a clinic and KITS so that that was running for a number of years, and she published a paper on on the detoxification opioid detoxif occasional two seventy seven participants I think, and had had remarkable results. So she's that that's the kind of longest standing I began clinic license in a way explain to our to our listeners who are the significance of doctor

Debora Mash in all this. So Debra match is there is a neuroscientist who has been involved in, you know, trying to develop ibergain as a treatment for addiction for years, six years, and she's currently running the study that I'm

working on in London. She managed to get neider back in the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the States get Neider backing for phase one studies in ninety four I think in in the United States and they administered I think up to two milligrams pekilogram and the study

round for a short while and then terminated. And she then set up her clinic in St. Kitts and carried on treating people and doing lots of research on ibergaine and has really never you know, she's really kind of never given up bringing this to market and ensuring access

for addicts to this treatment. I met Deborah Mash I think twenty five years ago when I was lobbying and trying to raise awareness of iber gaine in the UK, and we invited her over and took her to lecture at various places, trying to sort of open the ears and eyes of various addiction agencies to the potential of iber gaine and various research operations. But you know, we didn't get anywhere. And I think it's been a really long,

hard fight. Let's take a break here and go to an add Most of my encounter with I Begain was really beginning in the early nineties from the activist side. I mean you mentioned earlier Howard lots Off, you know, and Howard's you know experiences a nineteen year old realizing that I Begain had eliminated the withdrawal symptoms for him

and other friends associated with the heroin addiction. And in fact, I think in recognition of his work, my organization Drug Policy Alliance awarded him a big award Charlie before he died some years ago. But then it was also the the yippie activist Dana Beale. It was the Israeli fellow of BoA's Lochtell, who's you know, then starts the Israeli Greenleaf Party to try to legalize marijuana, but he was administering lots of treatments. And Bob Cisco, another activist who

in fact just died recently. I just was at his memorial service in New York a few months ago. But this set of activists, you know, what was their role in all and how much were they joined by others

around the world. Well, so we really wouldn't know about the potential therapeutic potential of iber Game for addiction if it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for Howard and normal really you know, trying to spread the word and raise awareness because of their own experience, but then because of the experience of others that they administered I be gain too, or that they you know, showed other addicts how to help other addicts, and this kind of addict

self help movement grew, and Bob Sisko obviously started up Eye Cash, the International Coalition Addict Self Help I think that's right, which was really based in the Netherlands, So there was a kind of connection between New York and the Netherlands, Rotterdam specifically. I think this laye network of people addicts helping addicts really and you know subculture of iber gain treatment providers, people who had gone through it

themselves and helping other people and so forth. And you know, they organized conferences, they lobbied government bodies, um Howard lots of obviously took out a series of patents in the mid eighties, and you know, managed to have conversations with Neida. I think it was you know, his meeting with Debora that that helped kick stock Debra's interest and Deborah's movement with Ibergine. So really, this, this whole kind of movement is all thanks to them, and they really deserve to

be massively honored. You know, this area of the for profit companies which are all you know, there's now obviously many, many of them, and they're funding university research centers. And I've read that a TIE, which may be the most well financed of all of the investors, is looking at this and that Mine Mead has also been taking a look all I think they're looking at a synthetic derivative of I beginning called AT and m C. I know

of some others. But is that where the funding and the push is coming from now, and what's your thoughts about all that? Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely where the push is coming from obviously. Yeah, you've got Demorex and a TIE they've collaborating on the study in the UK, and you've got I'm not quite sure who's funding the studies

in Brazil. Actually but yeah, it's it's private money coming you know, it's corporate money coming in and really mobilizing these studies and providing the kind of money that's needed to take these compounds further. I think and obviously I begain can I mean, I mean, Howard lots of years ago, decades ago, had these patents about the use of I began for treatment. Those have now expired, So I imagine and I began itself cannot be patented I measure at

this time. So at this point, is it about you know, trying to get patents on the derivatives or on we talked about before, nor I begain, you know, the basic substances it comes when it was human body. Yeah, there's an or I begain, there's derivatives, there's there's treatment protocols that will probably be technology associated with the treatment that will be patented. Um. Hey, I'm also full disclosure here. Um there's another new startup, UM a company called I

Bogus scene. I had Boas Wachtel was in New York visiting me and he said he's and I'm starting this company. Uh, you know, you want to be in the advisory boarder. And I said, well, I guess, so it sounds interesting. So that thing is just look at you know, launching now I I bogus scene. But was they're going to be looking at, I think is less focused on addiction

treatment and looking at treatment of other things. You know, their their materials say that they want to look at the using I begaine for dealing with things like gastro intestinal stuff and autoimmune disease and sleep disorders and maybe cancer, neurogenitive diseases. And I've heard it talked about visavi Parkinson's as well. So what do you know about the value or potential value of I began for treating not just addiction, but there are types of mental conditions or even these

physical ones. Yes, I did talk to Boas actually and I did. I am aware of iboga seen and it's you know, obviously my background's ethnobotany. So it's very interesting because this is really ethno medicine that they're taking forward, looking at the traditional use of a boga in its traditional context in Gobon and medicinal uses they have for it there, which are this gastro intestinal um issues and

the other ones you mentioned. So I think among treatment providers, you know, there's been all sorts of anecdotal reports about the immune boosting effects, you know, even dare I say it, You know, people are speculating about its potential in low doses again, in sort of micro doses for COVID and respiratory conditions. So I think, I think this is kind of a nascent field, and I'm sure people will start looking at different applications of it, And personally, I've been

very interested in its potential application for Parkinson's. In fact, that's kind of what got me back into ibergain after after a long break from it, because I kind of had, you know, put down the addiction, not thinking it wasn't really moving and it wasn't going to get anywhere, and also my life kind of changed and addiction didn't seem so you know, sort of present and relevant to me, and things were kind of stalled in terms of research.

And then I got invited to one of these conferences by Dana in two thousand and seventeen, and I watched a man give a presentation on having taken micro doses of very low doses of iber game for his Parkinson's and having had remarkable results really in attenuation of symptoms. And you know, at that time my mother got diagnosed

with Alzheimer's and my stepfather a year later. So I've been very sort of focused on neurodegenerative conditions and the potential applications and psychedelics in this area, and I'm watching very keenly. In fact, when I was working out there Beckley Foundation, I was really trying to encourage interest in that. Now, how do you mentioned earlier that you know your life had changed visa the diction and that was in part why you're looking in some of these other uses for you?

Was the initial entry into I Begaine as somebody like Howard Lotsof who used it and found it transformative? Or did it come about our other ways? Well? So I I first heard about ibergain I guess in this sort of mid nineties, but it wasn't until the late nineties that I got more directly involved. And that was actually sort of coincidentally. I just got asked to organize a series of conferences on I Begain. I had been involved myself with Aowaska. Was much more interested in Ayawaska as

a psychedelic. I had spent several years of researching it as an anthropology student and participating in rituals and experimenting with it, and I had found that had really pulled me out of my UM. I did to kind of patterns and tendencies so I had had during my teenage years and kind of early adulthood, consumed a lot of drugs, been very involved in the drug scene. I'd gone into it with Aawaska and I've done my work so to beat with arahuaska to resolve a cocaine and I had

a kind of cocaine and alcohol habit. But I had witnessed lots of my friends O D. I had lost several friends from addiction, so addiction was very sort of prevalent in my life. I'd also had lots of friends UM have psychotic episodes from various drugs. And so when I heard about IB again, even though I no longer you know, was in the kind of midst of any addiction, substance addiction, UM, I was obviously very interested in how it could help my friends and how it could help

those around me. When I did take it personally, I was addicted to tobacco still and it did help me UM quit my tobacco addiction. But I have to preface this with you lasted for a year, so I had I had a good twelve months with no tobacco, and then I relapsed. Um, and then I carried on smoking for another I don't know how many years, but then managed to stop, you know, probably what they used to other psychedelics. When you think about, you know, compare and

contrast how they're similar, how they're different. Between ayahuasca and I bow that I began. Um what stands out for you first in terms of talking about the experience itself. Um, So the experience itself, I think, you know, they're very distinct.

Obviously I began as much much longer lasting, and like I said earlier, you know, characterized by this more sort of memory we called dreamlike visions, whereas ayahuaska, you know, especially it's sort of strong doses and kind of peak experience can be much more about ego dissolution and um, you know, liquefying consciousness, connection with everything around you, oneness are to change in your sense of appropriate reception, where your body ends and begins, where you end and begin. Um.

So there's that, there's definitely that difference. You don't have that going on with the ibergaine. M hmm. Let's see an in terms of iowaska has also typically done in a kind of group setting, whereas i begaine is almost entirely done in a solo setting. Right, Yeah, that's a

massive difference. Yes, so iowaska is usually done, although some people do do one on one aowaska sessions, but it is usually done in a group setting in a more kind of ceremonial setting, although again it boga depending on whether you take ibergain or a boga, there is a very elaborate at boga ritual ceremony, group ceremony if you're following more the tradition of the buety that is again a community, communal experience, many people, a lot of music, dancing, contact,

you know. Then then then it's so if you go to the traditional use of a boga, it's more similar I suppose to the iowaska apart from the fact that it is used as an initiative, you know, traditionally as an initiation ritual in high doses or in low doses, you know, more for the kind of ceremony, prayer, prayers, not all night vituals that they do as part of

their religion. Yeah, I think I got we got into this a bit on the episode with Dmitry last year, because he actually did go to Gabon and was initiated into the wheety. And I think, you know, when we were talking earlier, Hetty about the uses for things other than addiction, right, I think a fair bit of the awareness of that comes from what was happening with the

wheaty and their use of iboga. Is that right? Yes, definitely, so Boger has used you know, like I said, like in large doses for initiation, contact with the ancestors, spiritual guidance, healing, but in low doses it's used, yeah, for a variety of illnesses as an ethnic medicine, you know, as a

medicinal herb, you know. I mean. One of the other issues that keeps emerging more and more now, right is what are the rights and responsibilities towards indigenous peoples, whether it's with ayahuasca coming from the Amazon regional Latin America, whether it's with peyote, and of course with eboga and the Boti. And there is this Nagoya Protocol, I guess, the sort of international treaty that many nations are signing

on to UM. But what can you tell us about that vise the eboga and how it compares to what's going on with the the other substances. You know, with this whole issue of kind of indigenous intellectual property rights, UM, it's in a way sort of easier to pinpoint with the boga and Equatorial Africa. You know, there's a long tradition of use, we know the various groups that use it.

So this idea of kind of benefits sharing should theoretically be more straightforward, although there's no sort of Um, there are no homogeneous indigenous groups, and there are various groups using in different ways, and so how you would coordinate

that benefit sharing is going to be somewhat complicated. I'm sure. Um. There is a group already operating Blessings of the Forest, headed up by someone called you Non, and they are trying to ensure benefits sharing and the sustainability of a boger because obviously, you know it burger is a valuable natural product in Gabon, and there's a lot of poaching and wild harvesting of a boger and if there's growing demand around the world, this is you know, the issue

of sustainability is only going to grow, and so the Blessings of the forest are very much um interested in setting up sustainable plantations and working with people to ensure sustainability and to ensure that um. You know, there's no illegal export of it Boger out the country, you can't. I mean, actually it Boger is a national cultural heritage in Gabon, so it easily eagle to export it. But

there's you know, there's various ways around. That's very interesting, you know you mentioned earlier, just to switch again, micro docing. I mean, this has become such a phenomenon, So what is the story. I mean, there's obviously micro docing, there's many dozing, there's what you call the flood dozing or you know, macro dosing. Um is there the micro docing? What can you tell us about that? Are more and

more people doing it or trying it that way? Well, I mean microdocing of all substances has become very fashionable, right.

People are microdocing LSD, people are microdocing psilocybin. Definitely, there is a growing movement of people microdcing ibergaine and IT boger, and not just for things like Parkinson's and your degenerative conditions, just for well being, you know, between the thirties and sixties of French company sold Lamborne, which was effectively a kind of micro dosive ibergaine as a stimulant and antidepressant

and so um for kind of stimulant effects mood effects. Yeah, there's definitely growing movement of people micro docing I begain for that, and then also people micro docing post you know, let's say they went in for detoxification with eyeber gain, then a provider might well recommend to do some micro docing afterwards, so you can have kind of micro docing, which would be maybe you know, ten to fifty milligrams

of iber gain. Then you can have kind of what I would call sort of low dose hundred to two hundred milligrams. Then you might have a booster slightly higher where you'd have more of an experience, um more kind of three to four hundred milligrams. There's there's a variety of dozing protocols basically, but yeah, I think micro dozing will become more popular, especially if we if we discover

more benefits from it basically and just even anecdotally. I mean when we talk to say about that intermediate level, what maybe many dosing for lack of a better term that people might be using for spiritual insight and awareness, like they're doing with ayahuasca or of mescal in or psaulocybin. From an actoral perspective, can you compare and contrast the use of iber gain at that level, sort of the you know, intermediate level, with people's experience with aouaska or

other substances. Yeah, it's not as visual as aowaska, so I think that. Yeah, I probably could have gone on a lot more about the differences between them, but iowaska, you know, can be very visual. There's a lot of physical sensations, physical purging, um, euphoria. Whereas with i begain, you the visual component at a low mid dose, you know, it's not very pronounced. Some people may have it, but

generally not so pronounced. It's more kind of introspective, um, interesting, thoughtful. Yeah, I mean I like to look at ibergain, you know, in a sense like a kind of um X ray of the psyche and emotional field, you know, and and and the flood dose is a very tense one, and you get to see absolutely everything. And at a lower dose, you know, if you'd get a LASS three D approach, what about the memory recall element. I think people do

get memory recall from it. Yeah, not intermediate doses. Um yeah, I mean at least from what I've seen, but not You're getting me intrigued to try it at that kind of lower level or media intermediate level and see what exactly that's like. And is there any advice you can offer to our listeners if they're actually looking to find a place to have and I begin treatment for themselves for somebody they care about. I mean, how should they proceed? I don't know if you can recommend any um, how

can you best answer the question? I think, like I said in the beginning, definitely look for medically supervised treatment providers, you know, um, where there's cardiac support on site. Make sure that all the preparation is done adequately. Um, make sure that you know they've taken a thorough sort of inventory of your health and health history. Are there places or websites where people report their experiences and name the clinics where they were so people can evaluate based upon

the consumers experience. I think if you dig around, definitely you can find consumer experiences yeah, um written up and the various sites you know, show videos. I could list a number of clinics, but I also don't have personal experience at those clinics, and I don't have and and and then there would be many I might leave out that I also don't have personal experience of. But go for the medically supervised ones. There are several of them in Mexico, there's one in Portugal, you know, in um,

South Africa, Canada, Brazil, I'm sure there's yeah. Just just so there's a good cardiac team and medical supervision. Okay, that sounds like good advice. Well, Hattie, I have learned an immense amount from our conversation here. I hope our listeners have as well. So I just want to thank you ever so much for joining me and my listeners on Psychoactive to talk about IV game. Thank you very much, Ethan. It's been a pleasure, and thanks to all the listeners too.

If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three, three, seven, seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You

can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to Avi Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw

and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with Ellen Scandlin, host of the podcast How to Do the Pot, which focuses on women and cannabis. Every woman should have a weed lube in her bedside table. Just every woman, So cannabis lube. It's you know, just a serum and I

highly highly recommend it um. This goes by back to the pelvic region and the endocannabinoid system and having more receptors and will not make you feel intoxicated, but it will bring more blood flow to the area and that increases sensuality, increases touch and so the weed loobe just as a as a topical. I give it as to friends as a gift a lot, and I highly highly recommend it. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it an't miss it.