Hi, family. Welcome back to another episode of the Prosecco Queens podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. And today's conversation is one that holds a lot of weight and a lot of heart. Before we begin, I want to gently let you know that today's episode touches on child loss and subjects that may be triggering. So if you're in a tender place or if this topic is close to home, please handle with care and do what you need to do for yourself.
My guest today. is June Krahulik, an author, advocate, and deeply thoughtful woman whose life took an unimaginable turn in 2012 when her two -year -old son Caleb passed away. That loss brought Jane to a crossroads. In the midst of her grief, she began writing, first as a way to cope and eventually as a way to connect and help others. In her book, Mama, You Don't Heal, June writes,
Congratulations, Mama. You're a part of a club no one ever asked to be in and a part of a group of women who are treated like they have the plague. Yes, you are a mama of an angel, a child that left way too soon. The day your child left this world was the day your life stopped making sense. June's journey through grief and loss and the way she's rebuilt from there is one of resilience,
vulnerability, and purpose. June's first book is a powerful and honest reflection of what it means to live with grief whilst still moving forward. It's not a how -to. It's a heartfelt offering for women who are walking through the hardest days of their lives, reminding them that healing doesn't mean forgetting. It means honoring and continuing. June's journey didn't end there.
She went on to study the mind and the many ways we process pain and rebuild through her training in multiple forms of therapy and the community she created for other mothers. June has become a quiet force, helping women not just survive, but start to find themselves again after everything changes. She also recently released her second book, Whispered Promises, a love story that stretches across decades, distances, and life's many turns. It's a beautiful reminder that love in all its
forms can be both lasting and healing. So in today's episode, we talk about identity. loss, resilience, and the quiet strength that it takes to rebuild a life with purpose. June's story is one of grace, depth, and fierce love, and I'm honored to share it with you. So take a breath, wear something comforting, and join us for this meaningful conversation. June, welcome to the Percival Queens podcast. June, I know I gave
you background. if you would like to add any color for the audience and if you wouldn't mind telling us about your son, Caleb. Yeah, so obviously I was in my late 20s when I had Caleb. Pregnancy was fine, going fine at first. Towards the end it kind of got a little shaky and I ended up having a complete placental abruption when I had Caleb. And obviously it wasn't caught, so I had a complete placental abruption. And when you have that placental abruption, your baby's
not breathing. So when I had Caleb, they got him, you know, they saved him. Obviously I had lost like three and a half pints of blood. I ended up, obviously I was fine and I figured that we lived together. One of the biggest things with it was, you know, I had what society would
call a normal child. And when he was born obviously because he had he wasn't breathing he had severe brain damage so my child that was was going to be society's norm is was actually special needs so it kind of shifts things from there so he had a lot of different different issues he had cerebral palsy which is you know everybody knows what that is and then he had microcephaly and a seizure disorder and cortical blindness he had like a whole bunch of stuff from that and
the doctors because he did live they shipped him to an And basically they told us that, well, they didn't tell me because I was locked out, but told my husband at the time and my dad that if he lived through 24 hours, then he would live a while. But one night he would go to sleep and he wouldn't wake up. So we told you that. Yes, they told us that at the hospital. Well, they told them that I was out and we were at different hospitals. They were actually where they had
to ship him. They put him what's called on a cooling blanket. Okay, basically a cooling blanket brings the baby's temperatures down to hypothermia levels and basically it's repairs their brains.
It slows down their their Yeah, it's like you're like freezing and basically it helps repair the brain and because he was an infant when the when the brain damage happened your brain will Go around the damages in your brain if that makes sense yeah around appears around it so that's a little psychology yeah so anyway they told us that and for some reason i had ten in my mind i just figured it ten because he had so much brain damage so we just kind of started doing
what. Parents do learn to have children. Parents, you know, with wheelchairs and feeding tubes and everything and going to his doctor visits every three months and everything. The night that the day before he had all his little doctor visits because he, you know, he had his, you know, his. eye doctor, his heart doctor, lung doctor, and just all these doctors. He went down in Shands and Gainesville, Florida. I love them. Went down there, got a clean bill of health,
and came back. That night, he went to sleep. Everything was kind of normal, and we had to take what we call shift work. Because Caleb was the special needs kid that would wake up, one of the special needs kids that would wake up in the middle of the night. So, and then we had to change out his, you know, add food to his feeding tubes and stuff. And my ex -husband was on duty. That's what we called it. Right, right. You know, and he, I woke up to him screaming.
I woke up and, you know, I ran downstairs and I'm like, what's going on? And he's like, Caleb's not breathing. And like, I think any parent, like when hearing that, like I couldn't fathom what he was saying to me. I'm like, are you joking? Like, you know, and it was just like, are you joking? That's the only thing I could tell him. He said, no. I ended up going downstairs and dial 911 and threw the phone down. Cause where we're from, if you dial 911 and don't answer
and it's an open line, they come. And then I went into his room and I took him off of his bed and I started CPR on him. And I did CPR on him until obviously the EMS got here and we, they took him obviously and I've been in law enforcement for almost 20 years now and I knew everybody that was out here and I know the way things are worded when it's not good. Right. And here where I live, if a child dies, it has to be investigated. Makes sense. Even if it's
not suspected. Right. And we were sitting here, we were trying to get ready to go and one of the officers that I knew said we have to wait for Alicia. and she was the investigator and I knew who she was. And I looked at him and he looked at me and I knew, I knew what that... Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, you know, we finally, I finally was like, hey, just let me sign something saying Alicia and you guys can stay in our house and we'll go. And they obviously let us do that.
And we went to the hospital. And when we got there, a guy called my name I work with. And I told him that my son was just brought in. He looked at me. I looked at him. We knew what was going on. Obviously, my husband at the time had no idea still. I tried to explain to him in the car and he wasn't having it. So I just kind of let it be. And they shuffled us to a room. and the doctor came and said that they had done everything they could to save him and he just didn't live,
he didn't survive. Autopsy when he came back, I guess one of my big things was I wanted to know what stopped. Was it his brain? Was it his heart? Was it his lungs stopped? When the autopsy came back and it was, you don't, we don't know. The only thing we can tell you is he passed away from the trauma, he endured. the years when he was born. There wasn't a particular catalyst at that point. Yeah, they couldn't tell us what it was. And that's kind of where my journey started,
because I wanted that answer. I thought that that would give me some kind of closure, was that answer of what's... But I didn't have that. I couldn't... I know that was 11 years ago. Yeah, to 2012. Oh, longer than 11 years ago. That's right, 2012. I still am so sorry. what you went through as a parent is unimaginable. It's just absolutely unimaginable. And I know we had like talked beforehand, it's just, that's your heart
living outside your body. And no matter how old they are, when they're out in that world, you can't protect them the same way. And that's always a parent's biggest fear. I mentioned to you as well, reading that part of the story in the beginning, was openly, openly physically crying because my daughter is going to be 19 and my son is going to be nine and I still check on them at night.
Yeah, I still check on them and make sure they're they're breathing, you know, not like when they're babies, you do it all the time with their babies. I still do it, you know, like I still sit there and make sure you know, and my daughter has a giant loft bed and I walk up, walk up just because I can't see, you know, so I can't imagine that feeling and for anybody that has gone through that or will go through that, my heart just goes
out. It goes out to you. This book, the title of your book, Mama, You Don't Heal, is both powerful and poignant. Before I go into my first kind of question for you about it, I do want to read a passage on page eight. So you say, I think we expect that we are one day going to wake up and just be okay, that there is a healing and we are going to go back to normal. back to the way it once was. I've never been good at sugarcoating anything, so I'm going to be honest. There is
no healing from child loss. To even suggest that anyone would frame the term healing with child loss is ludicrous. Newsflash. I have said the obvious. Ladies, we don't heal. We learn to deal with our child loss. So I set out to figure out this healing. only to realize I had to figure out that there is no healing. It is instead about learning how to love life and rebuild it around your loss, which I have done and continue to do daily. I was a hot mess in my journey, not
gonna lie. But my hope is to help you ladies down your path and in the journey you will now travel. So at this moment, all these years later, what does healing mean to you now? And how has that definition changed since the early days of your loss? I think I think in the early days of my loss, I thought that I had been through losses other than child loss, obviously. I always thought that you heal, you move on, and you know,
you're going to be okay. And I guess in a way you do with other losses, you know, you have the funeral, you have the, you know, the wake or whatever you do, and it's done, you know, and you just move on. But like with child loss, I thought that was going to be the same way. That's exactly what's going to happen this time. When I was started out with it, I'm like, I don't know how I can do this. I don't know I don't know Throughout the journey where I thought that
okay, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna heal and learn that okay Well, I'm not gonna heal from this what society would call heal and move on and be happy -go -lucky How can I deal with it? You know, like how can I learn to live a happy life?
Cuz I don't want to be miserable And he wouldn't want you to be yeah, and I don't want to feel how deep and dark I was feeling so how do I do it and that's when I started doing everything that I you know, I did and I'm sure we can do it later, but And I learned later on in my life, loss, when it wasn't right after, you know, it was years down the road that, okay, I just got to learn how to deal with it and deal with my triggers that I have and deal with all of the
things that are going to come up, like his birthday, his death date, you know, maybe a place that I go, maybe a smell, some woman it smells. Yes. You know, when he was, he would have been 16.
you know driving he's not driving now or when he turned 13 I actually talked to his Caleb's dad my ex and we're like wow he would have been 13 this year you know dealing with those certain days and trying to honor it right and that's what I learned later on is like okay I'll never accept that I'm going to heal from it but I had to learn how to deal with it and now going from I thought I was going to heal Now I know that I just need to deal with everything that comes
in my path, I guess you can say. So with that being said, was there a specific moment or a turning point that led you to begin writing the book? Or did it just emerge slowly over time? I can remember when I was maybe a few months into my loss and just feeling everything I was feeling. I knew I wanted to write a book that soon. I wanted to write a book about it and I
think it was a book about me with times. I guess back then it would have been more of like times with Caleb and just having those memories written down so I never forgot them. But I knew I wanted to write a book back then and I'm glad I waited. I'm really glad I waited because like I was so angry back then but you know I knew I wanted to write a book way back then but it would have been different if I would have wrote it way back
then. And one of the guys that I actually work with, he passed away during COVID and I was with his mother and father and his wife and just talking to his mother because obviously I had already gone through child loss and I had already started my group. I was like, I'm just going to do it. And when I was up there in Washington, DC, actually, for the law enforcement memorial, I started writing. I wrote the first three chapters in that in the
book when I was there, actually. And that was the time when I was talking to her and just she was going through so much that I had already been through. And I was like, no, this is it. I'm going to do it now. And that's when I decided, you know, there's two things about what you just said that I think about in any kind of. loss or grief, which runs the gamut, right? And I think that writing, whether it's a book, whether it's journaling, whatever it is, is such an amazing
outlet, right? Because you can see the progression of the anger of the, and we'll talk about it
later. the stages of grief and when you're ready and in your case as you can see sometimes it just falls into place like you're just ready at that point you know some people believe in higher power like i do and people just believe that that's just what happens and i believe sometimes these things just are ready at that moment like at that moment is when you're supposed to you're meant to do something Like, so that that makes
complete sense to me. I want to talk a little bit about the grief, right, and the complexity of it. And I'm going to start with a passage or two from page 28 and 29. Like I said, I had so many of them. I was like, my ink was actually starting to run out. I had to switch pens. It was so funny. Not funny, but you know what I
mean? Oh, yeah. so this says losing a child is a huge shock and remember when all of this happens our mind is not sure how to react our mind knows that it is an event that there needs to be a feeling assigned to it and it is trying to figure out what to feel in the first moments weeks and months into your child loss don't evaluate how you reacted i've spoken with mamas who have so much guilt wrapped around the fact that they didn't cry or they didn't do a particular thing
right at the moment they found out they feel guilty they feel horrible that they did not react a certain way they feel they did not love their child enough or they weren't a good mom mama your mind is trying to process everything that's going on don't think you're not crying or being emotional has anything to do with the love for a child or the kind of mother you were it is just a reaction and nothing more mama if i can tell you anything it is to cry and grieve openly
no one is judging you no one is thinking anything less of you and no one is worrying about anything but you It is okay to release every bit of the tears you have for your child. Don't feel obliged to hide and feel your true emotions alone, because when you do, this is where the loneliness starts. What I found so interesting and so deep about this specifically is I watch a lot of things like SVU, for example, right, which is one of
my favorite shows. And you, of course, you're in law enforcement, so you can relate to this. There's always that feeling of, well, they must have some sort of guilt, someone who committed
a crime. right or so because they didn't have a particular reaction right we told them their so and so got lost we told them so and so was not around or whatever the case may be or this person died and did you notice how they didn't cry they didn't react like a person who you know who would be in deep grief you know but not everybody feels the grief the same way especially initially so your book acknowledges the ongoing nature of the grief and the stages of grief which i
just had mentioned and that it doesn't follow a timeline so How do you help other mothers sit with the discomfort of that truth while still encouraging them to move forward, especially when they feel like they didn't react appropriately in the beginning? Well, one thing I put in the book is my reaction. I was very stoic because you've got to remember I was in law enforcement and I knew everybody and no one had ever seen
me get upset or reaction. I've always been very even keel, get it done and I thought that I had to hide it. And that was, that's probably the worst thing I could have done. But I think that I wanted, basically I wrote the book raw. You've read some of the stuff. It's very raw. And I wanted to know that, hey, there's somebody else. Like if you feel bad for not having a reaction, you know, when you found out, because I did not, I did not cry for, I mean, I went through the
whole thing. I did. CPR my son i hate it you know me i did like all the pilot it's like. It was and you know i did not cry you know i don't think i lost it until i got home no i lost it when i saw my parents because they were crying and i just wanted people to know that it's not
it's not something that. you know just because you don't react a certain way doesn't mean that you're gonna you know you're wrong for doing it and I wanted to write it raw so they know okay I'm not she's not sugarcoating it and I'm okay for the way I reacted and I think that when we start doing our loss and we start going through our loss we try to put every bit of guilt that we possibly can on a bad mom because I didn't do this on a bad mom because I didn't do that
and I one of the biggest things I tell them is just stop you know just stop your slave is clean you know what I mean Like, you loved your child, you're going to go through this process, whatever you did, okay, it is what it is, you're being the best mom you could possibly be. You just gotta forgive yourself. If that's what it is, then just forgive yourself and move forward. Because for the most part, we think we're bad parents, but our children adore us. You know
what I mean? But I think, I think the best parents think that they're the worst parents. So I guess that's it. That's one of the biggest things with it is, is like I try to tell them, okay, you got to stop, you got to stop with that. And I, and I did it. And then like, I use examples in the book because I do, I did it a lot, you know, I'm like the, the walking way not to do it. Like I'm that person, but you know, you know, it was a harder way for me to walk, but I hope that
being so raw and being so open with it. that I could help them. And I guess that's where I go with it, you know, hey, I did the same thing, but it's okay, I still love my son. And you did mention that later on in the book as well. You do mention that, you know, sometimes again, with the stages of grief, because, you know, you mentioned the stages of grief. And I think there's normally, it's the seven stages of grief, I believe, right.
And I've talked about that on other episodes as well, because I had basically the death of a marriage, you know, I'm saying partner betrayal, trauma, PTSD, things that I never in my life thought I would go through. And I remember still talking years later, I still at times find myself again, we talk about the healing that is not linear, right? You can be doing great. And so I can't imagine that any part of you could ever feel like you are healed from something that.
traumatic, right? Just the whole experience in general. And later in the book, while you're talking about the stages of grief, you also talk about how moms, some moms and not just moms, of course, parents in general can say all those things like, I'm a terrible mom. I can't believe this happened. What did I do to my kid? I shouldn't
have let them buy the motorcycle. I shouldn't have let them, you know, jump on the trampoline, whatever it may have been, everything in hindsight, you're going to go back and say, it's my fault. It's my fault. When the reality is You have to let your children grow. You have to let them be who they're supposed to be. And you have to let, you know, hopefully you're able to make what they're able to make all the right decisions.
And then sometimes, unfortunately, nature has another has another for whatever reason, unfair as it is, you know, you mentioned something that brought me back to something in my life back in September or so my daughter, she had just started driving about six months before I get a call at seven o 'clock in the morning. She's on her way to school. and I get a call from a number. I don't know what it is. I'm sleeping. I'm at home and I didn't hear. I didn't even
hear the phone and I'm getting that. I'm getting a text message. I'm getting cold. Like what is going on from these numbers? I don't recognize and I finally get through to my daughter. She had gotten a severe accident. one of the things that, you know, and it made me think about it because you talk about the motorcycle just as an example, right? These calls you pray that you never have to deal with, right, as a parent.
And thank God, I mean, by the grace of God, that the car was totaled, but she had just a couple scratches. Thank God for the seatbelt and things like that. And I remember me. Just like you had said, I thought about this, that autopilot, that numbness. My only thought was there was no, there was no reaction other than I got to get to her. I got to know where she is. What is my next move? There was nothing. We're at the hospital. I couldn't
even like, I saw her. She was okay. Even then I didn't go grab her because I didn't know, you know, like there was just so much going on. I'm like, she's okay. She's there. We're here. We leave the ER a couple hours later. We pulled into my parking spot in front of my house, me and her. I look over at her. and the floodgates hit. It was that adrenaline that finally came down. And I realized my kid could have been gone split second. And I cried for about three days.
Yeah, I cried for about three days. And then we had to go and get the rest of our stuff. The car was towed to a lot. And before they impounded it, we had to go get whatever the stuff she had in there. And I go with her. And this car is the first time we've seen it up close, even her. She was very viscerally like didn't understand how she was OK. Yeah. And I just again, I'm in Let's just get the stuff. It's raining outside. Let's get whatever stuff. And I'm in the car
with glass everywhere. And I'm just trying to get her little pictures, you know, little teenagers car, you know, her little, her little things. And I get her home and we get home and my ex -husband comes to the house and I'm telling him about it. All of a sudden in my head, I'm not picturing the car. And there was a little there was a picture of her and her friend, like, you know, the pictures from those machines, you have the four pictures that grow. And it was under
it had been under the driver seat. It had been pinned. And it was something I grabbed that. And I'm getting a flashback and I'm thinking about that. And I start to ball. And he's like, what's wrong? I said, I just realized there are parents that have to do that and they don't get to come home with their kid. Yeah. So the idea.
that we're supposed to have some kind of reaction right away is really sometimes a hard one to sit with because whatever the outcome may be, there's always that autopilot, that numbness you feel that at some point. for some people is going to hit you in a way you may not realize, you know, and I had to force her. She didn't want to get help for it. I was like, you need to accept this. You need to work through it. There's going to be a lot of feelings of guilt
and all kinds of other stuff too. And eventually she had a full on anxiety attack months later. That just all, it was a lot of stuff that happened, you know? So I tell that story purposely because I really emphasize what you say that we whether parents or anything else, sometimes there's no right way to do anything in those moments. And you don't know how you're going to react in those moments. And God bless you for getting through that. I know we were just talking about healing
and not being linear. And you mentioned that healing doesn't mean forgetting. Yeah, how can mothers honor their children's memories? I know you talk about you wanted to make their own legacy, right? So how can you honor your child's memory while still making room for the joy and purpose
and growth in your own life? Yeah, that's it's kind of complex, but I'll go through it I'm pretty I'll try to go through fast But I guess I guess I got to the point in my journey where I knew I didn't want him to be forgotten but I didn't know how to do it. And I guess the way that I started to look at it as I was going through it more is he dies the day that he died unless I do something to keep his memory alive. And that's where I say that you have to keep their
legacy alive. Because us as mothers and, you know, a father or who else, we're the only ones that are going to keep their memory alive. We're the ones that know the best stories, you know. We're the ones that know everything about them. And I guess that's that's where that comes from. You have to create a legacy because I don't want to say that the day, you know, March 20th, you know, of 2012 is the day that he died. And that's
it. no more and I didn't want to live like that and I don't think I could have lived like that you know putting them in a box and just pushing them away you know so the way that I did it was like for a while I would you know I would always go to the grave on his birthday and his death day and well I didn't go those days it was usually around those days because I didn't want to go that day it's just sad but you know I'd bring a balloon or whatever and then um as time went
on obviously I got to be able to wear I was I was able to talk to him and then you know he you know people I know so many people that know Caleb, but never met him a day in his life now. And a lot of people that I was friends with that knew Caleb, I'm not with anymore. You know, and you meet new people and you know, it goes in and out. You know how friendships go as we get older, but you know. I keep his memory alive by talking about him, obviously by the book.
There's thousands of women that have bought that book that know my son now. Obviously, you know my son now from how I saved him. I wanted to do it that way, and I wanted to share my story to help other women. That's how I honor him,
but there's so many different ways. there's a lady and I can't think of her name she does a butterfly release every year so everybody pays like you know whatever it is and they do it a certain day and they release a butterfly and say the child's name or you know there's people that do fundraisers they do I mean fundraisers um there's people I've seen that they have they have tattoos yeah I mean there's just and I and I actually have one on my leg of I had I just
got it changed, but it's a it's a like a pocket watch looking and it has this time of death and You know people do stuff like that that there's just so many things you can do out there Light a candle instead of a place setting for them during the holidays I guess like the big thing for me is instead of remembering the death date, which we always remember The last memory you have of a person. Of course. If you think about it. And the last memory you have of that person
is the death. So instead of that, I always tell people to remember the funny times, the good times, like we took Caleb to the Bahamas, especially his child to the Bahamas, you know, and Caleb, you know, he went and did this and he played in the pool, you know, I say played in the pool. But, you know, I like to remember those times, the time it up when they said he couldn't instead.
And that's what I try to tell them to do too, is like honor them by the good times and maybe the funny times if you had a child that was older and not that death date because our mind is going to tell us when we go, Caleb, we're going to think of the last time. You got to kind of train your mind not to think about the last time, remember the good times and not the death. Because obviously, that's final if you remember the death. In any
direction, that's traumatic, right? Like, you don't want to have that traumatic memory and those moments and the what ifs and all those because then I think that's harder to move from and to do better from when all you think about is the worst the worst day of your life right i think that that will always be the worst day of my life i can't imagine and i definitely couldn't imagine it would it wouldn't be i know we talked about before and and i want to just i want to
preface this by saying to the audience because i know there's always people that have something to say we are that we are not comparing um what i'm about to say to the loss of a two -year -old a nine -year -old god forbid a 16 -year -old a 35 -year -old right But when you lose a child at any stage, there's always, because you have that hope. And I mentioned to you earlier, before my son, I had lost the pregnancy. And I remember
at that time, I was only in my early 30s. And I remember at that time, surprised at how much I hurt from it. Yeah. I say this story because we... have moments where people try to think they're going to fix your grief with well -meaning words, but they end up hurtful. And I remember being actually sick from it, from the hurt of it, not realizing I was going to have that reaction. And I didn't realize I wanted to have had another
baby that bad. That it, you know, there's just things you don't know until it got forbidden happens, right? I had a coworker. a boss at the time. And nobody had known, obviously, I wasn't telling anybody my business, but I just for weeks afterwards, I was not myself. So she knew something was off. And she said, she brings me and she said, Teresa, she was like, what's going on? So I came out and I told her and in her well -meaning way, she says, well, at least you have
your daughter. And I said, yeah, I guess you're right. And I understand what she was trying to do. Yeah, right. I adore to this. I adore my daughter. She's my life. It was me and her. It was always me and her. Right. But that doesn't negate that loss, that grief, that feeling of the hope, you know, the love you already have, you know, and the idea that you're now have to code switch immediately. You know what I'm saying?
And so how do you navigate even now, maybe moments where people don't maybe don't know what else to say, they say something that kind of still hits you viscerally. When it first happened and I can still remember this to the day because obviously I knew the coroner too and I had to get you know you have to get like the death certificate.
I had to get something I don't think it maybe it was the death certificates from the coroner and I can remember him telling me well you couldn't and he knew Caleb he was like well you couldn't have done that the rest of your life. What do you mean? That was my that was my son, you know, and I can remember so mad about that, you know, just like, how could someone say something like that, you know? And, you know, oh, at least you can have more children. That's another that was
the other thing she had to me. Thank you. She said the same thing. Well, you could you're young. You can always have more. And I'm like, and it's different. You know, you, you kind of said that it doesn't like we either depending on what age they are, we grieve what they could have been and not knowing what they could have been. And then if they're older, you grieve all the times you have what had with them. It's just, it's, it's, it's the same gist, but back then it used
to get me really mad. But as I started going through and obviously it's been a long time now, but people don't know what to say and they want to try to say something to help you. And they mean, I've noticed from a lot. of people, they don't mean anything from it. And now, you know, I just, I just shake it off or whatever. But those comments, especially when you're first going through it, it makes you just so angry.
God makes you angry. But as you've gone on, I just, I know now that people don't know what to say, but they're trying to, like you said, fix it. They're trying to make you feel better and they mean nothing by it because the people that would say something snotty to you about anything in life, when it comes to child loss, they will, you won't even hear from them. This is true. They just don't know what to say and they're just like, whatever, you know, and they
go the other direction. I've noticed that. I had a lot. I noticed that a lot, but now I'm fine. I'm just like, I had to realize that they don't know what to say. So they're trying to make it right. And, you know, I kind of shake my head or, you know, depending on if I need to answer in this conversation or I just tell them, you know, thank you or, you know, some people say, well, at least you have your daughter. Like you were talking about, at least now you
have Bella is my daughter's name. And I'm like,
yeah, you know, I do have her. she saved me and you know I say stuff like that and kind of veer away from the subject but I think as you go along and you hear the crazy comments that you hear you just kind of are like they don't know what to say and I had to realize they don't know what to say it's okay they're trying to be well intentioned just don't know how to just don't know how to approach it right yeah I mean it doesn't make it easier because sometimes still you're just
gonna like completely say that but yeah you know you just kind of just kind of go with it. Tell me what you think is more important, community or isolation during a time like you went through. Yeah, depends on your personality. And I'm a big, big person that believes in your personality is going to kind of be how you grieve, your personality is going to kind of veer you towards your grief and I'm really big with personalities, but I
am an introvert. So everybody, all the ways they tell you to heal is go to group therapy, go talk to people about all that, watch children, go to a therapist and individual, a therapist individually. I wasn't going to do that, you know? So I had, I, that's why I did all the therapy myself. I read all about it all by myself and my lovely, but that's how I grieved. I didn't want to be around anybody. My ex -husband, he wanted the community. He wanted the togetherness. So we
grieve totally different. So I think it depends on the person and it depends on your personality too. For me, I'm more, I internalize it and I have to analyze it and I have to really sit back and think about it where other people want that group. That's how they're extroverts. That's how they strive. You know, that's how they thrive in life is my help from others. So I really believe it. Depends on your personality and but for me
I wasn't happening. I was I was not going to do the group therapy I was not gonna go I had people come over my house like tons of people I still don't even know but it wasn't just me and at first I felt bad and I won't get there But then it was like no, I gotta do this myself.
That's another thing you feel guilty You feel guilty and you feel like you oh you feel like you owe people to because you feel like oh they're they're reaching out i have to owe them the courtesy of acknowledging it right yeah and it was it's. It's impossible. And for me, the best thing for me to do was to get in my little bubble and be by myself and analyze everything. I did have my little miniature dogs in, but, you know, just sit there and analyze everything myself. That's
all the comfort you needed. Yeah, it was, man. That dog was like awesome. But, you know, that's how I grew. That's how I did it. That's how I dealt with it. And I wanted to learn for myself. I didn't want anybody telling me how I should feel. My ex -husband was differently. He needed that. he needed the people there. So I think the easiest answer is that it's going to depend on your personality. It really truthfully is.
I always say when we think of myself though, because I call myself an introverted extrovert. Like it depends on the situation, depends on who I'm with, the time, it depends on everything. When my household completely fell apart in the past couple of years, in the beginning I tried to keep it mostly House there was only very few people i disclose to and i had really not two weeks before all of them. discovery, that's what
they call it. I had said, you know what, I'm going to go back to therapy because there's some stuff I need to work through, right? And then two weeks later, no exaggeration, my world fell apart in obviously a different way. And I remember it spending the next two years, me and my therapist, you know, like it was the one -to -one and that
is what helps me. And then, you know, slowly, like I was, you know, the people closest to me, you know, and it wasn't until the podcast that I really start to talk and have other people know what was going on because it's the same thing. It's like, it depends on you as a person, what you're feeling in that moment. And not therapies, not for everybody. Groups, I can, I know it sounds similar to say, I can't stay in groups sometimes.
You know, I almost feel like to me sometimes it's more of a downer than it is helping me. Right. And other times I feel guilty. Well, I should I feel so guilty because that person's was so much worse than mine. And you know what I mean? Oh, well, yours couldn't be that bad because look what they've survived. You see what I'm saying? And I think sometimes we we don't
understand that pain is relative, right? It's all relative to you and your experiences in life, you know, and sometimes group therapy, people don't get out of it what the idea of it is. So handling that really is just unique, as you say, to each person. You know, many women lose a sense of themselves in motherhood. We all do, even without the trauma. After such a profound loss, how did you begin reconnecting with yourself?
Well, that's also very complicated. Obviously, I had my loss and my grief that I was going through. Okay. Well, also, when I was going through my loss, my grief, I was in a very, very dark place. And I mentioned it in my book, I never came out and said I wanted to kill myself. But if something happened, and obviously I'm in law enforcement now, if something happened that would be okay, you know? And I did a lot of stuff that I shouldn't have done. I could have got someone really, really
hurt or myself hurt. But when I was in that dark place, I'm trying to deal with my grief. But then all those little black, dark demons that I had didn't like the person I was. I shouldn't have acted like that. I should be a better person at this. I should be more, you know, wanting to do more in my life. And all, I was fighting all that darkness too at the same time, you know.
And you would think that it's just your grief you're dealing with, but you're dealing with all the, all the stuff in your past that you're not proud of. And not that I was like a horrible person or anything, but like I still, I did a lot of stuff that I didn't. I didn't want to be that person anymore. So I can remember years down in my life, I was sitting on the couch with that same dachshund again. And I was like, I don't want to live like this anymore, you know?
And when I lost Caleb, I was 31 years old. And I'm like, I don't want to live 30, 40, 50, 60 more years feeling like this. And I had to make that decision. And once I made that decision, I decided that I'm not going back. I'm not doing this. And it was just baby steps. At first, I started I started a master's degree program. I did all the crazy, stupid stuff you're not supposed to do when you're grieving, but I started a master's degree program that was forensic psychology.
And I started learning about the criminal mind, but... the mind just started interesting me. And that's where I got to the therapy stuff. That's where I was like, oh, wait a minute, I can trick my mind. You know, and I started that way trying to think positively when I was in such a negative dark place. And then after I started being able to handle that, then I started to handle, I don't like this about me. I'm going to change it. I'm going to like, I don't like
this about me. I don't, you know, I'm going to change it. You know, I still feel this way, but that's the way I viewed back when I was in high school before kids. What do I? really feel now because I think that a lot of women going through child loss, marriage, divorce, all of it, we lose ourselves in that. We kind of like stop. We kind of like stop growing, I guess you could
say. Oh, yeah. Off on the back burner. Yes. And we've instead of when we become that mom, it becomes about that child and we don't think about us and what we who are we going to be as a mom? Who are we going to be as a mom that has an angel? Who are we going to be as a wife or a divorcee? And I think I think that's a big thing for us is we just put everything on the back burner. Yeah. I kind of answer. It does because society in general expects mothers to always just bounce
back. And I say mothers implicitly because unfortunately fathers don't get the same scrutiny as mothers get, right? What do you think more people need to understand about the emotional and spiritual labor involved in surviving child loss because bouncing back like it's nothing is not a reality? Yeah, I think they need to know. Well, for me, the spiritual part of it. There was things that happened that I talked about in the book that happened to me when I was when I was going through
my loss and obviously I was mad. I was mad mad mad at God for taking him away from me. Um, absolutely totally flustered with him and um, I thought we survived his birth together. So I was absolutely hor - just whatever. I was really bad. And so like for the spiritual part of it, I had things happen to me while I was going through all of this mess that I believe that there is obviously a higher spirit, whatever spirit that is. For me, I say God, but I believe in a higher power
than - than here on earth. And I believe part of my healing journey was to know that one day I will see him again and I'll see with him again and that always helps me believe with the healing process. No, I don't sit here and think about it every single day, but I know eventually one day I'll see him again. I'll be with him again and that helped in my healing process and in the emotional process for me. I had to realize that I am going to be okay one day and something's
going to what I call triggers. Something's going to trigger me and I am going to be emotional. That's a hot mess as I mentioned in my book. You did. Go back to that place. But I had to
realize I need to be okay with it. And I think that's the biggest thing when you're going through it is realizing that you're not gonna stop crying one day and you know it might be six months down the road or ten years down the road you know i was actually i was watching something one of those darn reels and on facebook or instagram or one and between the music and just it was a mom talking about her loss and it's nothing that I had never seen before but it just brought
me back to Caleb and I got teary -eyed and I started crying that moment it just it needed to hit you the way it hits you yeah and it was not something that was out of the ordinary I didn't cry for long but it just hit me you know and I and I'm like okay with it now but before it was like oh no I gotta you know I gotta act bad you know I gotta act stoic and you know but now I'm just like if I cry I cry it's gonna happen
at the this time and being okay with that. You touched on something that I read and when I read it in the book and I kind of loved it because I lived it and you just mentioned it now about being angry at God. There have been, again for me especially when I read that I was like okay you know I felt a little almost a little comfort with that in a way because we always sometimes feel guilty when we feel angry at God. Yeah. And I know for me, there were moments I sat and
I screamed and I cried to God, why? Like, what is the point of this? What is the reason for this? I don't want to have to, why, just why? And screaming and crying and you know, that's a relationship, right? So it's like he can, he or she or spirit or source, whatever, it can handle it. That's the point, right? To get you back to your grounding that you need, you know?
And there were moments for me. that when I was at probably my lowest that I was the same way that I was like you know what I don't even care what happens you know I was just like whatever happens happens there were moments I was on the floor like a puddle hysterical crying and I actually would hear in my ear get up a voice Teresa get up and it wasn't my voice yeah you know and it was so shocking that it stopped me instantly and it was like and it was kind of like you have
other things you have to do so get to it, right? Those kind of things. So we all have those moments, I think, where, you know, we think we're doing great, we have to re -evaluate our relationships with ourselves, with source, whatever, God, whatever we feel, and bring ourselves back to that grounding, whatever that is for you, to help push you along. Now, the reason I also mention this is because I know you mentioned it as well, you've studied
multiple forms of therapy. and mental health practices so how did that learning influence and you touched a bit about it but in this particular case how did that learning influence your writing so when i started doing doing the therapies and stuff like that. I'm an extremist. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it to the extreme. And all of them I did to the extreme. And just side note, NLP was my favorite. That's Neurolinguistic
Therapy. But basically, my biggest thing was is between the therapies and learning the therapies and they tell you, you know, you have to accept, you have to be truthful, you know, whatever that thing is that you felt, you have to be truthful about it. You know, you have to accept however you felt like for me. I hated, you know, I hated God. I'm not, you know, I did, you know. I felt like a crappy mom because I didn't get upset and cry when, you know, my child died. I had
to accept that. So if I have to accept that and acknowledge it, I need to write my book exactly how I feel. And if I do that, then other moms
will accept. how they felt and I think that's how the biggest part of it from everything that I've I've done and all those therapies and stuff the extreme stuff that I've done is you have to know your truth and I think that's the big thing with my writing it was like I'm gonna write I'm gonna write this up and I talk about one time in the book where right before we get to the hospital and I and I'm thinking to myself
at least he's not suffering anymore. Caleb went through a lot and he had a seizure disorder and he went through a lot and I it's hard for a mom to even feel right about saying that but I was like maybe there's a mom out there. that felt like that or thought that and thinks that they're the whole most horrible person in the world. And all those therapies taught me is like you have to accept it and let it go. And I guess
that's kind of what it did. It made me write my book more raw about exactly what I was going through. It really is. It's it's like I said, it's touching. I was there were moments that I was just reading and I was in my car reading and I was I was at my son's baseball practice and I'm in the car and I'm facing the field and I'm reading this and I'll be looking up back and forth to make sure he's all teeny tiny and I'm looking up and I'm reading it and I'm in
my car. I had to put my sunglasses on because
I felt it in my stomach, in my gut. hold all that emotion and it just it was beautifully raw it really was and lighthearted in a sense as well right like to help kind of that balance is definitely there you you talk about having forgiveness even for yourself right which is really hard to do and we touched on it a little bit earlier but not you have to forget it's not just for others but for yourself so if so what well what role Do you think that plays in the
healing journey? They always say you have to forgive yourself. I mean, that's like the big thing. Oh, you got to forgive, you got to forgive. But I think you and everybody that could possibly be listening to that knows that that's like one of the hardest things that you have to do. How do I forgive myself if I, you know, and the way that I did it and it might help other people is I'm a clean slate. Yeah, I did some things
that I probably am not proud of. And there's some things that I think I should have done better as a mom and, you know, wife or what, you know, whatever, but okay, I can't go back and change those. I forgive myself for being that way, but I'm never going to be that again. And I think that was a part of my, my journey too is like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that at that time frame, whether, you know, whatever it was I was going through at the time, the dark demons
as I call them. And I had to say, you know... I can't change it. There's absolutely nothing I can do to change it. I'm just going to move forward and I'll tell you, I can guarantee myself I will never do that again. And as long as I don't do it again, then I can forgive myself. That's really interesting because I think that
we do try. Most people, if you're really trying to be on a healing journey of any kind and a healing and your way of saying a dealing journey is knowing that you're actually learning something from it, hopefully. Hopefully, you know, a lot of people don't, unfortunately, and even if, and even if you think that you're 100%, there's no such thing. So it's always about saying, okay, you can always remind yourself, oh, wait, let me let me go back to that. And now I learned
from it. So how am I going to switch gears and remember what I've learned from it? And so I can deal with it differently. I think that that's, that's really important. in any journey. You were able to create a community for grieving mothers online. So how has now that you're a little more open obviously about it in the past amount of time that you have been, how is sharing space with other women who originally group wasn't
what you needed, right? Change the way you see grief and purpose and the long path of healing and dealing, really. Yeah, that's the weirdest part about it is like I'm still an introvert
today. To today, I will, you know, I love my space and I love my quiet time, but that group I guess like for me when I was going through and I was like well I'm gonna put this group together and I'm gonna help other women and it's you know it's not gonna be my thing but I'm gonna help other women and just putting it together I learned that and there's different things and it goes over in the book but there's a different healing if you talk about your child it's a different
healing about learning reading about your child it's a different healing about hearing another mom's story sharing pictures you know learning something together. I believe you have to have all of that and group in the group setting it does help. But like one of the things in my group is for we're not going to play the victim to live with the loss if we have a bad day we're
going to talk about it and you know. I hope by another mom posting in that group and going through something, another mom that's going, you know, on the other side of the world, you know, goes, you know what, I didn't think about it like that. Maybe I need to try that to try to heal or, you know, hey, I feel this way. And I felt really bad about it. But that mom right there feels the same way, you know, and it's just like that
community where it's like, hey, we're okay. You know, yeah, we were kind of in a group that we never wanted to be in. Of course. we're okay, we're going to be okay and we're going to heal.
And I think that healing is different for everybody because I believe, you know, we talked about earlier the personality, but I think that community helps, even if you're going down a different path of healing, helps you realize that, you know, yeah, we're different in our loss and our children usually die a different way, but we're all kind of going through the same thing. Deep down, we're all going through kind of the same thing and feeling the same way. No, no, of course,
because I don't think it matters. If you could be, it's not the natural progression of life for a child to go before the parent. So it doesn't matter if the parent is 112 and the kid is 96. You know what I'm saying? Although that'd be a very young mom, but whatever, but either way, it doesn't matter. It's just in life. It's not the natural progression of things. That's still
your baby. You know what I'm saying? It just, um, regardless of what your relationship was, regardless of whatever the case may be, there's going to be at some point where you have to. And I, again, I'm speaking from. different point of view, but I'm just saying in general, whatever the case may be, there's always where you have to get to that place of acceptance. And I know what happened to them. I know what happened to
me. And how do I, how do I use this to, to be a catalyst for the rest of my life, you know, without, without, you know, and I always think to myself, and I always say to myself, would they Want me to suffer, you know or two or they just don't want me to say I'm with you and you feel like you know I'm sure you feel like your son is with you all the time and That that is as hard as that isn't him not physically with
you. Sometimes I'm sure that's a bit of comfort as well Yeah, yeah, and you know, I will I believe in like signs and stuff. Oh me too I'm a firm believer in signs and, you know, I was actually, it was this weekend, it was either Saturday or Sunday, I was washing dishes and looked out my window and there was a red cardinal right there in the bush, you know. Dragonflies right now are all over the place, you know, I think those
are signs. They're out there, I think he's with me all the time, but, you know, it's not something that I think about all the time, but when I see something like that, I'm like, When he wants you to know, that's when he lets you see that. I want to read a passage from page 22, find it here. Like I said, I really could have sat here the whole time and just read the whole book out loud, to be honest with you. Okay, it says, obviously
my child died when he was two years old. And for some of you, your child lived to be an adult and had babies of their own. It's not about what stage our children were at in life or how they passed. We are all one. We might not understand each other's story, but we do understand the pain. With each of us who go through the loss of a child, we understand what worked for us may work for others and others who are dealing
with loss. What do you hope? a mother who is in the early raw stages of loss feels when she reads your book? The first and the biggest thing is like I hope they don't feel they feel that they're not alone. I mean I knew people that had lost children but I didn't like get it and then when I lost Caleb I thought I was the only person that's ever lost a child. Of course. And then nobody could understand what I was going
through. And I don't think it's the fact that someone, another mother that has lost a child is going to understand exactly what I'm going through, but they understand, they truly understand enough to just sit there with you and be like, hey, we don't have to talk if you don't want to, but you know. I'm here if you need me. You know, um, I think that's the biggest thing I would, I would definitely want them to know is
that they're not, they're not alone. You know, obviously I'm weary of a lot of the groups that are out there for child loss, which is really weird because I own a group. I have a group, but I'm really weary of it because a lot of those groups, they, this might get some people, this might trigger some people, but I feel like sometimes as a mom that's lost children, we play like the victim role and we play the victim of our circumstances instead of figuring out which way we need to
go. And I'm real brave saying that right now, but I was the victim when I first started, you know, so I've been there, but you know, we play the victim of our circumstances and it's hard to get out of that space. If you don't get out of that space, you're going to be in that dark spot. And I hope that they understand that, hey, there are people out there that can help me. Maybe I just need to find the right group, the
right people. You would be surprised how someone that has never gone through child loss before can be there for you just as much as someone that's not been through child loss. Right, right. And that's another, like the book, when I wrote the book about... It was written for moms, obviously, definitely for moms. But if someone else picked up that book, it would kind of give you a sense of what the mom might be going through. Yes.
Different, different kind of loss, but maybe what she's feeling and maybe you could help them. But yeah, I guess that's the biggest thing is, is I wanted them to know that they're not alone and that there's millions of us out here, millions of us out here. It's so unfortunate. But I do like how you said, Like, I know you're right, I made sure there's some people, but not to play the victim. I say long game, right? Everybody, all of us, no matter what the loss is, all human
nature will play the victim, right? Like, it doesn't matter what it is, sickness, death, also. a marriage, divorce, I mean, loss of a job, whatever it is, right? Like whatever it is, we play that victim game. Again, I think that's just human nature to do that. But you're right. I think after a certain amount of time sitting in that, you're not going to grow, right? You're just
not going to grow. Now, June, I want to switch gears a little bit because what's powerful about your story is how you hold space for truth and imagination, grief and love, pain and possibility.
So after sharing so openly and vulnerably and mama, you don't heal you then turn to fiction with whispered promises and this is a story that carries its own emotional weight but in a completely different way so if you don't mind let's talk about that journey a little bit what it meant for you to shift from memoir to fiction and what whisper promises lie to explore i know you had some other life altering events after as well
that helped be a catalyst for this as well. So with the second book Whisper Promises, again, being a very different story, it's a love story that's a love story that spans decades and life's many different turns. So what inspired this story and how did it come to life after everything you've been through? So I obviously wrote my book, Mama You Don't Heal, and it was out for five months. And I mean, it was it was doing good. I was doing all kinds of podcasts and everything
is great. My husband at the time asked for a divorce after 10 years. And so, you know, it comes to a point where and I can't say that our marriage is perfect at all, you know, but nobody
said I still was kind of blindsiding. obviously and um i guess you know when i was at that point i was like i go back to and this probably sounds snooty but i go back to my affirmation i had with caleb i've already lived my worst day every day after that is gonna be better than this day was like you know what i just got to pivot this isn't the way i'm going i have a daughter now and i want to go in a different direction and i guess i you know that's that's kind of what
I wanted when I was dealing with the story I was like you know I want something that that feels real that has kind of emotion in it and that people that they can they can the audience can relate to I think that's the that's the biggest thing I wanted to I wanted a fiction story where something was real something was real and something lasted and um that's that's kind of where I was going with it and that's where I went with it.
So in some ways Whisper of Promises is about second chances right and the power connection so was writing this fiction was it a form of escape about healing something or something else entirely for you? I think it was just, I guess maybe it's an escape. An escape from like society now and the situationships and the, you know, hookups. Yeah, the single culture is ugly. It's ugly right now. It's ugly right now. I fear for my daughter, I'm sure you feel for yours, because
she's of age, mine I have a fear for you. But you know, it was, I just wanted to do something different. So it was like an escape because, you know, I believe in love. Um, so, you know, um, I just wanted that escape. I wanted that escape away from what society has going on right now, I guess. And even in divorces too, because divorces, I mean, you know, people joke around, obviously I'm in law enforcement, people joke around like, oh, it's only your first divorce.
You know what I mean? I'm unfortunately on the way to two and I'm only my early forties and, and, and it wasn't in any. It wasn't in any trajectory of mind. You just can't control other people and you can't control their actions. In this book, the characters maintain a relationship through emails, letters and small reunions over the years. So do you believe that love can survive across time and space? I absolutely believe that. And I believe that there's a person for everybody.
The male in the book is in the military. I come from a military town. And then the woman in the book is in law enforcement. And so I wanted to do kind of the distance. And, you know, back in the in the 90s, it was you're writing letters, you're not getting on the cell phone and saying, hey, what's up, you know, you're not Skyping, you're not doing like all this. Yeah, you weren't doing that back then. And no instant gratification because that we've really gotten used to. Yeah,
we've gotten used to it. So I wanted something set kind of back at that time. But yeah, and I wanted something to feel real because I believe that if love was meant to be, they'll always come back to you. They'll always find you. You know, I don't know if there's one special person for everybody, but I believe that you're going to know when that person comes. Did writing whispered promises help you explore the concept of love from a new lens, especially after loss and heartbreak
and any other major life changes? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it made me it made me go back to realizing what what love should be. and what it shouldn't be. And I think for me moving forward, it also made me do, you know, I told you earlier, analyze everything. You know, it made me analyze myself and what I really wanted and what I should, I don't know how to explain it, but maybe should have done earlier. What I should have paid attention
to more, I guess you could say. And what I'm going to and not going to deal with in love anymore. Amen. That's where you learn, right? That's exactly how you learn. You keep learning from your past. It's just you hope that you don't make those same mistakes where you see it before those same mistakes were made. Yes. So June, we're basically at the end of our interview, but I have some more questions for you. If you could sit with yourself from the day after your loss, what would
you say to her now having come this far? You're not alone. I mean, that's that's still my biggest thing is is you're not alone and do it the way you want to do it. Grieve the way you want to do it. You don't have to be stoic. You don't have to hide your emotions. Just let it flow, because that's one of the biggest things that if I would have started from the start and showing my emotions, well, maybe not even show letting
my emotions come. Instead of just packing them away that would have helped me out so much more and then just to tell myself you're gonna make it It's a long road, but you're gonna make it no expectations. Yeah. Yeah It's just one day at a time. Yeah, just do I mean if you know I mean if you do something that's crazy do something that's crazy if you're gonna cry or if you're standing in line and start crying Hey, it is what it is. Right exactly people that don't even
know you think you're crazy. I mean, right What's
it matter? You know and just don't care don't care like that for women listening today who are struggling with any kind of loss or a disconnection from their purpose what's one gentle first step you'd encourage them to take yeah so basically i would tell them is to to sit in their space in their silence and i would definitely tell them to decide that day whatever day that is once you start thinking about it decide that day that you don't want to be in the place that
you're in and once you say decide that don't ever turn back. Don't ever, don't ever go back to the way you feel that day. You know, you might not have like the best plan of action. You might not know where you want to go. You don't know. You might not know what your goal is, but each day sit with it and just take one step forward. Or I say baby steps a lot, take that one baby step forward and just never go back to the day
before. And you actually mentioned journaling earlier and I tell people to do it all the time is the days that you think you're going backwards, go back and read that journal. two months ago and see where you're at and then you'll realize that you're way ahead. That's a wonderful tool. I love that. That's completely true when you see that progression. You go, wow, who was that person? Yeah, I can't believe that I've come this far. Yes, exactly. And I lied. I said I
had two more questions. Actually, I have one more. Please tell our audience where they can find you, where they can buy your book. I'm going to put it all in the show notes, of course, all the books as well. And I will be buying with the promises because I want to read that one too fully. Right. I really do. I'm like so intrigued. But please tell our audience where they can contact you if they would like to buy your book, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. So the easiest place to look for my book is obviously on the Amazon. But if you type in either of the titles, you can find my book. It's at several different spots. Mama, you don't heal. You got Amazon, Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble, whole bunch of them. Whisper Promises is on Amazon and I saw it on Barnes and Noble the other day. So like it's starting to pick up more the longer it is, but
Amazon's obviously the easiest. If you want to find my group for child loss, it's a private group. It's only for women who have lost children. There's about 1700 people in there right now,
all women. And it's at, it's on Facebook and it's women surviving child loss and it's a private group you have to answer some questions I just want to make sure that you've actually lost a child a group and that you're female and then that's my private group and then everyone I have to talk tick -tock Instagram Facebook if you search my name or the Serenity Dreamer that's my business page on Facebook and then Author June Karolik, you can find me, but sometimes
it's easier by, you know, searching the Serenity Dreamer. But yeah, and if you want to message me, obviously my email is hello at authorjunekarolik .com, but my last name is kind of weird. It's kind of long and stuff. So if you message me on TikTok, Instagram, or Facebook, I will message you back on there too, because I do that too. And that's... basically how you can get a hold
of me. No, that's awesome. And again, like I said, I'm gonna put all that in the show notes, everything, it'll be a listing in case for anybody who would like to get more information or, or reach out to you as well. June, thank you for being here and sharing both your heart, your words, your healing with us. What you've shown us is that we don't have to have it all figured
out to begin again. That purpose can grow out of pain, and that even after everything changes we can still write new chapters, whether through tears, love letters, or whisper promises of our own. You include a Mona Lisa Diamond quote, positive people are not positive because they've skated through life, they're positive because they've been through hell and decided they don't want
to live there anymore. So to anyone listening who's navigating loss, identity, the feeling of being unrecognizable to yourself, I hope you walk away from this episode knowing that you're not alone. Feeling might not be linear or neat or complete, but it's possible and your story still matters. You can connect with June online and explore both of her books. Again, Mama You Don't Heal and Mr. Promises, wherever you get your books. And again, I'll say it, we'll link
everything in the show notes. Thank you for joining me. You can reach me at Prosecco Queen's podcast on all of social media. As well as ProseccoQueen'spodcast .gmail .com. And please like, subscribe, review podcasts on YouTube at Prosecco Queen's podcast. I will be off for a couple of weeks. We will make sure to keep everybody in the loop of when our next episode is coming out. So until next time, be gentle with yourself and remember you're allowed to rebuild, to rest, and to rise. Thanks
for listening to Prosecco Queen's podcast. Cheers. Peace out.