Enhancing Client Engagement with Kirsty du Toit

So grab a coffee , sit back and let's get ready to blast off . I'm your host , françois Dutouet . Good morning , kirsty , welcome to the show .

We started with the name Propulsion and the whole brand we have today is as a direct result of that , and you were on that podcast . It was very successful back in 2019 when we started , because there wasn't anything like it and you were on episode 10 of the show .

I mean , I don't even have to go and look , I just remember who was which episode and you were on as our guest for episode 10 . And that's the first time ever I heard about something called advice , engagement or engagement or more outlying engagement , and then also learned about asset maps .

So I mean , lots have happened right in the last five years or so , because time has been flying by with that . All sorts of things that we don't want to talk about . But how have you seen financial planning change in South Africa during this last five years ?

But when you reflect back and you know , I think in the day today , we don't always realize just how much changes , but when you reflect back and and you listen , something from five years ago um , we can see just how much change there has been .

I mean , if I think you know you were starting the propulsion um community and podcast we had recent , you know , literally just launched acid map in south africa at the time of that podcast .

So just reflecting on on that journey and you know , starting a business and growing it and launching Acid Map in South Africa and then reflecting on how the profession has changed in the last five years , you know , one of the things we mentioned in that podcast was that planners were starting to explore engaging with clients virtually .

And if you think now , just short five years later , you know , I think at least it's safe to say that more than 50% of engagements are now done virtually with clients . And how does that change the way in which we do planning and the way in which we engage clients ? We also spoke a little bit about and the way in which we engage clients .

We also spoke a little bit about how we want clients to engage more and how do we take these 30 , 40 page financial plan reports and make it really simple and easy for clients to engage ?

I think that's probably the two areas where I've seen the biggest change or shift in the last five years is just more engaging virtually and simplifying financial planning and advice and making it really easy for clients to engage with .

Beyond that , because at the end of the day , technology is only the tool , you know , it's not the thing , it's not it's , it's just simply the um , it's just simply the , the thing that we use to get to do something right . Um , and the whole thing that I learned from this was this thing about engagement and advice .

Engagement and seeing how you've built a process around the tool to help advisors and planners be better with that . So the big question I've got I mean there's obviously been I mean , as you mentioned now , the sort of the journey that there's been a big shift in focus , you know , from financial planning all the way through to advice engagement .

So I want to sort of , maybe , if we can clarify a little bit what that actually means , and then you know why is it important for planners and advisors to really be aware of this and to also make that shift .

But advice engagement talks to how do we deliver our advice to clients when we end that engagement with clients , when we have those moments of opportunity , what are we presenting in those conversations and are we doing it in a way that makes it really simple for clients and promotes engagements , the clients are sort of leaning into the conversation , promotes

collaboration and co-creation . So advice engagement talks to how are we delivering advice ? This is where we see sort of the rise of visualization and taking the complexities and really making them simple and easy for clients to understand and engage with .

And you know that's the advice engagement is is when we sitting with the client , whether that's virtual or face-to-face , what we put in front of them really dictates the level of conversation we're going to have . So how do we make it really simple and easy for them so that clients can make those informed decisions that help them take that step forward ?

But then there's also other things that I need to see it almost . Like you know , if I don't see it , then I can't get it . So I know visualization is also a big thing and it's also a big part of of , obviously , what , what technology can help us with and and and help us , you know , get more out of that conversation .

But how has , as things like that , changed the way that advisors now interact with their , with their clients ?

If we can take something really complex and make it simple and visual , clients can respond and relate and understand and we know through that understanding they feel more empowered to make informed decisions that move , move them forward .

And I think we see that a lot if we look at , you know , the complexities that are coming out at the moment in terms of you know what crowbars took us through . Now we're taking that complexity and really making it simple .

Examples like the two-part system , you know I've seen , you know terence released a video for for clients , just taking , um , you know the concepts of it , but making it visual in a shorter video that clients can see and understand what it is and what it means for them

. I think these visualization tools are really helping us in what we put in front of the client .

And you know , often when planners you know sign up for AssetMap as well , they'll say you know , kasi , I've actually always done this with my clients , either on a whiteboard or I take a piece of paper and I start drawing what's important to them and who's important to them and we draw changes that are going to happen .

And AcidMap is just making that easier and allowing you to scale that and use that across your practice . But it's really the same concept . So if clients understand better when it's visual and when it's simple , and if we can understand , we can engage more . And that's what we want in those , in those moments of engagement and conversation .

So we want the clients to lean in , be part of the conversation , want to co-create the plan with them , because that's when they really stick to it . And once they've made those decisions of , this is what I want to do and this is how I'm going to move forward .

And I think you sort of have now mentioned the thing that I subscribe to and that I think that's how you know somebody is engaged , because that's the question we might have a definition for what is engagement . But how do I actually know a client is engaged ?

Because there's two different things about knowing what it looks like and knowing whether somebody is actually being engaging or engaging in the process with us , and knowing whether somebody is actually being being engaging or engaging in the process with us , and you know that whole thing around , like the way that they , they , they actually participate in the conversation ,

right . So do you want to talk to us about maybe a little bit about that , I mean ? I mean what I've been one of the most , because I remember when , when some people started using asset map , they would come to me and say like it's the best thing , my clients absolutely love it . But I mean you must hear millions of stories like this .

I say no , millions , that's maybe an over-exaggeration , but you know what are some of the things that you've seen . That's really been a shift where people say , oh , this is what engagement looks like .

Looks like , so can you maybe just I don't know if you've got maybe a story or something about that or some realizations that you've had in the process around you know , wow , this is why it makes such a big difference .

So I think that tells us when the client is leaning forward and they're asking questions and you know if you're looking at an asset map , they're drawing as well and they're , you know , adding things to their map and you want that engagement and that collaboration . But I think you know to answer your question around how visualizations can help that .

Some examples I've seen .

You know planners are really really good at empathy , understanding what clients' fears are , or you know what questions they might have , and taking that and visually representing the information in a way that can talk to that fear or take that fear away or move past that block that the client might have to help them make the decisions that move forward .

And to look at some examples you know I've seen where a client is perhaps in retirement , and they're okay . Let's say , for example , they've got enough funds , they're going to be okay , but there's still a lot of fear around it , around you . You know , am I going to run out . I'm scared to spend you know , but if you can visually show a client .

You know here's if this is everything you want to achieve and you're still going to be okay . You're still 100 funded .

Even if you know we assume a low return than what we're expecting , you're still okay you know you can provide that comfort to clients , where you can remove that fear and they can feel okay , I'm comfortable and confident that I'm going to be okay .

So I think using visualizations in that way , and even if you have a client who maybe you know it hasn't got enough , you know isn't quite where they want to be showing the client where they are and what different options they have , it just empowers them and it gives them the confidence to say , well , if I do that , look at the difference it makes .

It may not get me all the way there , but I'm in control and I can move forward and progress towards . We give clients that ability to view . You know what that looks like for them and what the different outcomes are and how they can make the decisions that move them forward . So I think that's the examples that I see .

And just in terms of planners using Asset Map with clients , you know I've just seen maps where clients and planners have drawn all over the map . Then you know it's been a great conversation .

Or when clients , when planners , tell us you know it's the one thing the client wanted to leave the meeting with , it's the one thing they want to show their family and show the people that are important to them , because they can just see it all on one page and they feel in control , they feel organized and that they can really take those steps that move them

forward .

I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned personally was that you know because it happened often when I sat with clients and I gave advice to clients and so forth then you get to the end and you really like , in your heart , you feel like you did such a great job of explaining this and all of it .

And then you ask the client right , so we've obviously got to make a decision . So , you know , are we going to move forward ? Like , what do you want to do ? What don't you want to do , whatever ? And then they would respond with I'm not sure , but I mean , you're the professional , trust you , we will do what you tell us to do .

And in that moment it's such a great feeling of like , wow , I'm really not bad at this . I really I'm sticking the landing , if you will .

And then you sort of , over time , I came to realize like , but that's a very clear indication that they definitely not engaged , because they were sitting there and they might've been nodding , and like they with me and yeah , no , we have no questions , and everything . It's like just how good can one person explain something .

And then I realized like that is a massive red flag because people will do it , but when they need , when there's other things happening in life and they need to do things , they will very easily go back on their decision because it wasn't really their decision right , and I think that's that's .

That was a big moment for me to realize , like the things that really made me feel good about what I did was actually a much bigger red flag than it was a medal I could stick on my chest , if you will . Um , so , so that's , that's an important one as well .

Um , but you're obviously very passionate about this , kirstie , and you really love this whole thing around client engagement . I can hear the way that you talk . You really get excited about stuff .

With everything that we've said so far , is there any particular tip , maybe just one simple tip that you can give advisors to maybe improve their client relationships and I guess then , through incorporating a bit more engagement , like what would be one simple tip or one simple step , they can take in that direction yeah , thanks , and I and I love that insight that

you said you know , when , when clients say you know , I trust you , just tell me what to do they're really saying I , I don't understand .

I think that the one tip I I'll share and and from planners in the community um , you know , planners are really great at empathy and if we can just lean into that and ask ourselves , you know , what is the question that this client would have right now ? You ?

know what is the fear that they're probably feeling , or what is the opportunity , what is the question that they're probably wrestling with and how do I deliver the advice in a way that answers that for them ? So , just always bringing it back to the client . How does this client take a step forward ? You know it reminds me a little bit about you know .

They say what's the perfect exercise ? The perfect exercise is the one that you do every day . I think the perfect plan is the , or the perfect engagement is the one where the client feels empowered to take the steps that move them forward . My tip would be lean into that , always come back to you .

Know , if I was this client , what is the step forward and how do I reflect and represent the advice in a way that is going to help this client take that step and progress according to their plan ?

Yeah , that would be the one step and I think maybe you know thinking about , if you think of that entire client experience journey , we have these moments of opportunity , these moments of engagement , where we're sitting in front of the client or we're engaging with them virtually , and it's in those moments where we create sort of that personalized experience for the

client , where they feel the value of financial planning in those moments . So the other tip I would say is just be intentional about what you present in those engagements . If it's a 30 , 40 page plan , we know that the level of engagement is not going to be great .

But if we can simplify it , summarize it , visualize it for the clients , we can really co-create and collaborate with them and they can take those steps to move them forward . So lean into empathy and be intentional about what we put in front of the clients in those engagements .

Let me not say how important , let me rather ask is it even important that you know to go down this road of client engagement and have much more of a collaborative effort in that sense ? Is it necessary to become a coach , or is having a coaching some training in that area ? Will that be helpful ?

Does that have to be part of the toolkit to really get the most out of this ? Maybe just some thoughts from your end being a coach , how much of that do you think is really helping in this space versus ? You know , there's certain elements that I can maybe learn in order to , to to up my game quite considerably .

Um , or then must I also then embark on this whole coaching journey ?

. I think I was the type of person that felt every question you get you have to know the answer . You know you have to be ready with the answer and be able to respond . And coaching sort of relieves you from that pressure of saying you don't have to have the answer to every question . The answer actually lies in the conversation .

So , approaching that client engagement by asking questions and the client responds to those questions and then you build on that and then the client builds on that , you're really unlocking the answer through the engagement and that's the client , the right answer for the client .

And I think if you you know Benny talked us through the FPA research in your past in CPD Dan , and one of the things that came out of that research , which was conducted across , you know , top advisors with top clients and they said , you know , 60% of those clients said the goals in their plan didn't actually reflect their actual goals .

And I think that's where we can use techniques like coaching or asking open-ended questions to really uncover in that engagement ? What is it that this client wants to achieve ? Are we reflecting that and how do we empower them to do that ? But the true powerful me of coaching is just that idea of I don't have to have the answer .

I can ask the right questions and together we can come up with a better answer than I would have had if I just walked into the meeting with an answer prepared .

So I think that's what coaching can can help with and just asking the asking the right questions and asking open-ended questions now just let me add that that sounds a lot easier than it actually is .

I mean that's the whole intention , and then you maybe lose that opportunity to understand just a little bit better . And it's really it's an intriguing sort of skill , I think , to have to really be able to ask more .

And I think to have to really be able to ask more and I think you summarized it so eloquently for me to say well , it's just about asking more than telling . So that's very , very powerful . So thank you very much for that , christy .

Then also , you know , if you think about everything that's going on at the moment you also mentioned about , you know you believe obviously in continuous learning and you want , want to learn more and obviously any skills you can get is really helpful .

But in your view , maybe , if you just think , if you should just quickly think about where we are as a , as a profession , or whether you call it an industry , whatever we call it .

Um , if you just think where most people are because obviously you'll have people on the one extreme , people people on the other extreme , but where most people might find themselves , what do you think might be some things that people should really spend time on , learning and upskilling and even reskilling themselves on ?

other and I think Laura mentioned that on your show recently as well that going to these events you start connecting with . You know other planners and like-minded individuals and your peers and , just like we want to engage more with clients , we can learn so much by engaging with each other .

You know , taking making use of these opportunities to engage and share and learn from each other . so , I think , get get involved in in um , in , you know , attend these events and and connect with the other people that are attending as well . It's in that engagement where we can grow .

And then a good skill , I think , is just thinking about what we put in front of the client and how you would ask questions around that . A nice technique for that is something we call the three E's , which is just about , you know , exploring , educating and elevating .

And just by exploring where a client is today , tell me about the people in your life I see you've got this investment tell me more about what made you take that out and what that means for you .

And just by asking these questions , just around the picture of where the client is today , we get great insights into how they journey to now , how they make decisions , what's important to them . So that's a you know , one Silicon Learner is just using that three E's , which is , you know , starting by exploring , educating and then elevating .

What are the steps that we can do differently , what are the gaps that we can fill ? That's one I would say , and lean into that empathy .

I mean , we are basically at the end , but is there any one piece of advice or one piece of just maybe a thought or an idea or something that you want to leave everybody with today , that if they go away from today and they had nothing that you and I spoke about , but they hear this like what would that be ?

I think the one thing I would leave with is just look at that experience that you're taking clients to and think about is there technology that I could explore that can help me , you know , really deliver advice in a different , more engaging way ?

So , ladies and gents , if you want to connect with Kirsty , her details is down below or her LinkedIn link to her LinkedIn profile is there , so go and check it out and do follow and link with Kirsty on there , as well as the Asset Map page , and that's if you want to learn more about client engagement and see how you can do things differently .

Kirsty , from my side , thank you very much , really appreciate it , Really value the work that you do and the team , benny and Gary and everybody . So thank you very , very much and thank you for being a fantastic guest on the show and I'll see you soon .

I think there's so much value there , something that I would really like over time to do a bit more of a deep dive in . I think there's so much value there . So , ladies and gentlemen , that's the end of the show . I'm really excited for our next guest next week .

We've got loads of guests lined up fantastic guests from all over , as you've just heard Kirsty , fantastic and our guest next week is Kim Potkiter . So we're going to do a deep dive into this whole midlife journey and all sorts of other interesting things , and she's just recently did a series , a masterclass series , on client connection in Propulsion as well .

Trust me , your mind is going to be blown . The way that she explains and the story she shares and all of that is absolutely incredible . So , yeah , really looking forward to that , to chat to her as well . So we'll be back next week , same time , same place . Until then , stay safe , safe , be best and prosper .

Continue to raise the bar and remember to look out for our communications about everything that's going on . Love you lots , have a fantastic bye-bye . All right , folks . That's a wrap for this episode of propulsion . I hope you got as much out of this as I did .

Remember to tune in every friday at 8 am , south african time for our live show called propulsion live . You can find it at wwwpropulsioncoza forward slash , live and trust me , you don't want to miss it .

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