Dr. Jim: [00:00:00] Thanks for joining us today. This is your friendly neighborhood talent strategy nerd, Dr. Jim. Today we're going to have a different sort of conversation. Normally our conversations feature K 12 superintendents sharing their best practices on how to build high performance districts and drive educator retention outcomes.
We're going to change the game a little bit. We're going to zoom out in this conversation and take a look at how regional K 12 support organizations help K 12 students. to support individual districts. In particular, we're going to look at how new superintendents can get set up for success in rural districts.
So who's going to be leading us in that conversation today? We have Dr. Colleen Tim, who is the agency administrator at the Cooperative Educational Service Agency, CESA 7, which serves 38 school districts in northeast Wisconsin. In addition to that, they also service some private school partners with over 50 years of trusted leadership.
CESA 7 is committed to preparing students for college careers in life through high quality, innovative services provided. By recognized experts. [00:01:00] Dr. Tim is a strong believer in the power of purpose, both in finding it and in helping others hone their own. She believes the role of a leader is to develop the leadership potential in those around them, empowering others to grow and succeed throughout her career.
She is focused on fostering leadership through initiatives, such as redefining ready five voices, leadership, coaching, and board development. With 35 years of experience in education, Dr. Tim has served in various leadership roles, including CESA 7's director, school district superintendent, principal, and educator. Her expertise and dedication in developing leaders and supporting educational excellence are integral to the continued success of CESA seven and the schools that it serves.
Colleen, welcome to the show.
Colleen Timm: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me today.
Dr. Jim: Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation and it's going to be an interesting perspective. We've just started the process of talking with some of the regional support agencies and how they [00:02:00] help districts reach their percentile. Potential and particularly superintendents reach their potential.
But before we dive into the specifics of this conversation that we're going to have I want you to share with the audience a little bit more about your background and experience, but in particular, I'm looking for some of those key moments in your career that helped shape your perspective and how you show up in a leadership capacity.
Colleen Timm: It's such a great question to start off this session. I think one of the most defining moments for me was when I became a leader in a small rural school district. I had been in suburban and urban districts for most of my career in Wisconsin and in Arizona. And I came to a small rural school district here in the CESA 7 region in 2004.
And just previous to that, I had been in Tucson, a large urban district where we had 250 administrators that would come [00:03:00] together every month. And it was a dynamic, diverse, amazing group of people. And I remember sitting in one of my first leadership meetings in the small rural district and looking around and we were all about the same age.
We were all white and we were five in number. And I remember just. wondering in a worried way. Where is the diversity going to come from? Where is the energy going to come from? And very quickly realizing that it was going to come from the five of us. So we had to not only bring our background and our expertise, but then we had to be purposeful about seeking out the diversity and thinking that would be able to Push us in the direction of our goal.
So that was one of my really defining moments. I think also once I became a superintendent and was frequently asked [00:04:00] to mentor new superintendents. That is such a wonderful opportunity for you to think about what you do and why you do it. And so I think that helped me constantly. Hone my own leadership when I had to be able to explain it to other people.
And I think that has helped me now in my leadership in this role where we support those 38 school districts and especially as agency administrator where I support those superintendents in those districts to really help them clarify their own thinking about their leadership.
Dr. Jim: want to dig into a couple of different areas.
One in particular is a shift from being in a larger district in Arizona and moving to a smaller rural district in Wisconsin. Jeff, how did you navigate that change in completely different contexts? Because there's not really much that. Lines up between Arizona and Wisconsin in terms of demographics or anything else.
Colleen Timm: [00:05:00] For me, I think it was great having had that experience in a large district where you had so many people to fill so many roles so that I knew what the work could look like when you had a full team of people coming into the small district. One of the defining moments, I think, in my career was realizing that all of the things that happen in a big district still have to happen in a small district.
You're going to pass and implement policies. You're going to develop and implement a budget. You are going to set a vision and a mission and student outcome goals. You're going to progress monitor those. All of those things still have to happen. All of the communication with stakeholders still has to happen.
There are fewer people to do it. And I was fortunate to have a full time business manager, but many times in our rural schools, they don't have a full time business manager. They certainly don't have a communications person. They most likely don't have an HR person. They may or may not have a director of special education and [00:06:00] curriculum.
And what happens is those administrators are wearing dual hats in those places. So I quickly realized that we were. As a small team of five, we were going to wear a lot of hats, but it still wasn't going to be enough. One of the things that I think helped us because that was a low performing school district.
They had been. The lowest in their test scores for 17 years running. Eventually we were able to achieve 54th out of 425 school districts in the state in terms of our achievement. But key to that was realizing that within all of our ranks of staffing in the district, all the different building levels and departments, we had wonderful expertise and we just needed to harness that and turn those folks loose.
So the leadership. The aha on that is the leadership does not and should not come from people who wear the title of administrator, but all of those folks are leaders in their classrooms, in their daily work. And it's our [00:07:00] job as leaders to support the environment for that to come forth and really thrive.
Dr. Jim: I like your perspective on that. One of the other things that, that I'm curious about, you just mentioned that. Whether you're looking at a big district or a small district, all of these different jobs need to be done And in a smaller district, it means a lot of people wear a lot of different hats But even if you're wearing a bunch of hats There's still stuff that you won't be able to get to so what i'm curious about is If you're speaking to You know a rural superintendent that might be listening to this conversation.
How do you prioritize? what are the key areas that we're going to focus on at a high priority level and what are the things that Might be a nice to have focus. How did you make those decisions at the district level so that you weren't stretched too thin while you're wearing this, all of these different hats?
Colleen Timm: One of the things we talk about in education is to be clear about what you're loose on and what you're tight on. And [00:08:00] what I tell administrators and what I practice here in our agency is to be really tight on, on your purpose. Your personal purpose and your organizational. And that's key because you're going to have a lot of competing interests pushing and pulling for attention and resources.
So it's really critical that you know what your purpose is. Who do you serve? Do you serve students? Do you serve adult interests? Do you serve egos? Who do you serve? And why do you serve that? And I think that's something that a leader has to determine for themselves. And then they have to work with their staff very intentionally and in an ongoing fashion to cultivate that very deep sense of purpose.
So we get really clear about what our personal purpose is within that organizational purpose. We get really clear on what are the outcomes that we want to achieve. The reciprocal responsibility then for an administrator is to make sure that everyone on the team [00:09:00] has the training and the resources that they need, and then we set them loose to be able to, let their leadership come through.
And I think that, to me, has been not only key in helping everybody continue to move forward. When we think about a small small school, an administrator who wears all those hats. You can't afford the energy to constantly bring people back to the purpose. Your energy has to go into moving everybody forward along that path.
If you're constantly spending your energy, bringing people back to the purpose, you're not going to have the time or the energy to move people forward. So really spending time to be super clear on what that shared purpose is, what your purpose within that is so that We're, we can check ourselves against that, and we know the outcomes that we're trying to achieve, and we can check ourselves against that, and then within that, there are going to be people that have better knowledge of [00:10:00] curriculum, maybe, or better knowledge of special education.
Dr. Jim: This is the place with them that these parameters have been set, and now their leadership just gets to come forward and everybody on the team becomes a leader. What do you have to bring to the table and help us move forward? We all know where we're going now. We can all teach each other and help bring each other along.
Good point about anchoring in on purpose.
Dr. Jim: And I think it's valuable to make sure everybody is lockstep on that front. I want to switch gears a little bit and get a better understanding about Your role in the role of CESA 7 in terms of the district that it serves. So tell me a little bit more about how all of that fits together.
Colleen Timm: So in our 38 school districts, we have a district as small as less than a hundred students on an Island to as large as 19, 000. And then within that, I would say two thirds of those are small rural districts. that are 1500 or less. So our roles and agency is really to come along like the 12th [00:11:00] man, right?
We're the 12th man that comes along your team. And the expertise, especially in those small rural school districts where you maybe don't have a point person for every one of those specialty areas, we can bring that. To you and we can support so we're helping provide professional development.
We're doing strategic planning We are helping to analyze data you name it. We are bringing that to a district so what happens in a cisa is we Right for and qualify for grants and contracts to help bring low cost and no cost service to the district. And we measure our success in the success of our school districts.
So what is it that they need to achieve? Want to achieve? How are they going to close identified gaps and move student outcomes forward? So we come alongside. Bring the expertise that they might need on their particular team. And it's all customized and specialized to where they are at and where they want to go.
Dr. Jim: So when you look [00:12:00] at, there's something interesting in what you just mentioned where you're bringing these services that is customized to each district when you're customizing those service delivery things for each district. That seems like a pretty big lift. And as far as I know the organization isn't massive.
So how do you make it scalable so that it's it's still effective and you can get to all of the different schools and districts within the region the support that they need?
Colleen Timm: So a nice part of the model that we have grown into is we can often deliver a base of training to our districts. For instance, we're doing some work around assessment. So there are sessions here where schools can send teams. But then a paired part of that is coaching. So then we go into the district and where are you in your assessment practices?
Where are the areas where you want to go? And then we help them move the needle in that way. So it's a nice blend of making sure everybody has a strong foundation of the knowledge that they need [00:13:00] and then applying it. their district.
Dr. Jim: The other thing that I'm curious about, you mentioned that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of almost 40 districts in your region. And some of them, one is as big as 19, 000 students, and then the other one the small ones can have, a hundred. So when you look across a district that has that kind of spread in terms of student population and staff, what are some of the common things that you've noticed within the district that stand out as, hey, these are consistent problems or consistent issues that that many districts face?
Colleen Timm: One of the biggest challenges that we're seeing right now is the frequent turnover, especially in the administrative seat. So of our 38 superintendents, 70 percent of them are new in their chair in the last three years. Not all of them are brand new to the superintendency, but all of them are new in their particular district in the last three years.
And we have notices of retirements already coming up. [00:14:00] So that's a lot of change. And in order to keep the continuity of a district going, that's where we can come in and do some of this work around purpose.
Dr. Jim: When you look at that trend where 70 percent of the superintendents in your region are. Within their first three years. And you're dealing with a high turnover environment at the admin level. What are some of the things that you've noticed are consistent challenges that new superintendents have to deal with and that often trip them up?
Colleen Timm: along with that new superintendent, there's often new administrators within their ranks as well. A lot of those folks are coming straight out of the classroom in these smaller districts. So not only is the superintendent learning their role. But they're at the same time having to mentor the other new administrators on the role.
And they may have new board members or a divided board in today's world. I think a huge part of what a new [00:15:00] superintendent has to do that we help them do, is to not only have developed A strong sense of their purpose, but to be able to communicate that to folks. So you're communicating it with your board, you're communicating it with your external stakeholders, with your internal stakeholders.
So that has to be done in an ongoing fashion, whether you're writing about it, whether you're talking about it in your staff professional development, how you're working that into your messaging in your board meetings. But you have to be able to be really strong on that because people are wondering when there's change.
What does this mean for us? What does this mean for us? How do we celebrate the things we have in place? How do we move the needle on the goals that we want to move?
Dr. Jim: So when you're looking at that communication muscle, and you also mentioned that, oftentimes at the admin staff level some of these folks might be relatively new to those roles. So communication becomes key. What are some of those best practices that you would recommend that superintendents get [00:16:00] in the habit of so that they're communicating clearly across all levels of their organization and to the board?
Colleen Timm: Interestingly enough, the first place you can look is how you set your board agenda. When I was working on my dissertation, one of the things I had to do, I was studying successful small rural school districts and board leadership within that, had to study board agendas and board minutes.
Very little time actually is focused on students and student outcomes. So I think that's the first place, is how do we work that in? So it is part of our practice as a board administrator team. Then I think what other communication you have. Do you have newsletters that go out to your community? Do you have newsletters that go to your staff here in our agency?
I'm constantly talking about purpose. I'm putting in anecdotes. I'm putting in videos for people. I'm putting in activities that they can write back to me, their reflection on their purpose. We've done at staff meetings, carving pumpkins with purpose and decorating Christmas cookies with purpose. But it's constantly part of our practice in [00:17:00] part, because every time we bring new people on, we want to be able to onboard them into our deep sense of purpose in the agency.
And we never want us to stray from that. We're a loosely coupled organization. If you're a superintendent, it's. Your leadership is loosely coupled when you have multiple buildings. So how do you make sure that you keep everybody around that purpose, that tight part of your work? It has to show up in your work, in your messaging, your actions, your communication regularly.
Dr. Jim: An element of your answer. Talked about onboarding and getting people locked into the purpose of the or organization and what's, what stood out to me about that comment is that, my study and my research is on retention and turnover. And there's sort of two key inflection points when I was going through my lit review of when people tend to turn over it's usually within the first 90 days That's a high inflection point So if you don't have a tight onboarding process people are going to start thinking about leaving and then it's usually at the 18 to 24 month [00:18:00] mark where They've learned the job.
They're starting to get proficient, but nobody's really talking to them about next steps in their career. So they start thinking the organization is not really that into me, so I'm gonna look elsewhere. But I want to dig into that onboarding phase and connection with purpose. And I'd like you to get as tactical as you can be.
What are some of the Things that superintendents and district leadership can do During the onboarding phase to make sure that people are truly connecting with the mission and purpose of the organization?
Colleen Timm: That's such a great question. I'll go back just for a minute to talk about when I was superintendent in this small district as we were in the beginning phases of our improvement, we would often replace a teacher three times before the start of the school year. So people would take our job because we were early on the market and then they would wait until they got a job in a bigger district in a metropolitan area with higher pay.
By the time that we got going down this path of improvement, we actually exceeded the state average of [00:19:00] teacher retention, even though they could have gone 10 miles down the road and made 10, 000 more. And I think key is because once you know that purpose, sometimes in education, we think you don't see the outcome of your work.
But once you're so keyed in on that purpose, you do see and recognize. The indicators of improved performance, right? So I think that's a big part of it. You know that you have the ability to contribute to moving the needle. I think the other part is that loose tight part. When you hire people and you have this framework of here's our purpose, here's where we're going.
We need your talent and you don't have to come in here and wait until you have years of experience under your belt, but out of the chutes right away. You're going to be able to make your mark. You are viewed as a leader within the ranks. We're going to celebrate your leadership, recognize and welcome your leadership.
Dr. Jim: But that happens because you have trust. We're very clear on our purpose, we're very clear on our outcomes, and we trust people to [00:20:00] exert their leadership on our work. And I think that is a huge part. They feel that they can contribute, they feel valued, and they feel trusted.
Going on the themes of communication and trust and extending that out a little bit, you mentioned that it's critical for superintendents To set up the right communication environment within their district. So tell us a little bit more about what that actually looks like. If you want to build a high communication environment, a high trust environment, what does that look like in practice in terms of what superintendents should be doing to set the tone properly?
Colleen Timm: I think one of the things, of course, is that the superintendent is You know, a chief communicator for the district with internal and external stakeholders. But the other piece of it is that over time you are turning everybody into a communicator of that purpose of that mission. So when I was in my small district, I was often invited to go speak to community groups, go on the radio, that kind of thing.
[00:21:00] As we got going, I started to send other staff members. even students in that role, because once everybody is clear, we share knowledge of that purpose and of our desired outcomes, everybody becomes an ambassador. And again, you just develop that trust that there's a consistent message throughout the organization.
And I will tell you, and this is confirmed the work that I did in the, in my dissertation, people will believe the superintendent, but they will believe teachers. Even before the superintendent, they expect the superintendent to say specific things when the teachers back that up. There's a higher level of trust.
Dr. Jim: That's really interesting. If what you're saying is that. Part of building trust in an organization relies on grassroots support from the front lines. How can you machine that into your organization so you have more advocacy from the front line folks that are supporting your initiative?
What? What should you be thinking about as a leader to get [00:22:00] that broad based support from the front lines?
Colleen Timm: I think, knowing what my personal mission, if I go in as an administrator, knowing what my personal purpose is, my personal mission, then inviting the collective voice into shaping that for the organization. Because it will for sure be enriched when they have a voice and when they trust that they have a voice in that.
And then we look at, okay, what do you need? We follow that up and build trust by giving them the training that they need, the resources that they need, and then celebrating that success. And it becomes, and then again, I would say the people who are with you, when you bring new people on, they become the champions of this is how we do it here.
This is what we stand for and they help to bring those people in. But I think a big part of it is having their voice. And shaping it from the beginning, telling us what they need, checking in with them periodically. But we have to make sure that they are included in that voice. And I think the nice part in a rural school district is a small rural school district.
You can be really nimble with [00:23:00] that.
Dr. Jim: I'm thinking through some of the day to day challenges of what could happen in a small organization. I've always worked in smaller organizations, too. I think an easy trap would be to get stuck behind your desk responding to emails. Instead of doing the stuff that you're talking about. So when you're advising those superintendents that Might feel themselves falling into the operational side versus the people side of the job What are the supports or structures that you would recommend that they put into place so that they're much more people focused Or facing than operational focused.
Colleen Timm: First thing we tell people is. Put it on your calendar, build it into your calendar, and make your public, your calendar public to your team so they know where you're going to be, when you're going to be there, and make it difficult for yourself to reschedule those events or skip over those events. So I have seen where Leaders will tell their staff, I'm going to be out [00:24:00] in classrooms or schools during this time.
If you need me, here's where you go to in my absence. But, make a plan that can help you stay true to that focus.
Dr. Jim: One of the other things that i'm thinking about we're describing a scenario within your region where you have relatively new Superintendents that have been in the seat. And one of the big focuses with any district is retaining the educators that they have. So when you think about that problem, what are the things that I can do to better retain my educators?
What's the advice that you have for superintendents on what they should be looking at to make stickiness within their organization in helping them better retain their employees?
Colleen Timm: I think it starts from how you post the position, right? So what is the dynamic posting that you have, but also the expectations that you have so that people understand that when they come in, they will be expected to be a contributing member of [00:25:00] the team. And that's a celebration, they went to school, they've worked other places, they have this experience to bring, and it's an important voice in the mix.
So how we advertise for it, we bring them in, we onboard them, we mentor them. I think a mentoring piece is critical. We had a strong mentoring program in the school district that I was in. We have mentoring where I am right now, and it's absolutely critical that there is a person there that can specifically check in on folks.
Again, I think if they understand they're not alone in this work, this isn't an environment anymore where we go in and we, excuse me, close the door and simply do our work, but we have the. The access to the full talent of this team. So we create an environment where they are able to ask questions, share expertise, collaborate, work together. So we take that solo nature out of this work because it is really tough work under a great big microscope [00:26:00] today. Education is a favorite one to push around sometimes in the public.
Dr. Jim: And I think if we help people understand, you don't have to do this alone. We do it together here.
One of the things that you mentioned that caught my attention is that how you post your position. And what's in your job posting is going to have an influence on your ability to retain that potential employee. Tell me a little bit more about what those best practices look like when it comes to job postings.
Colleen Timm: So a lot of the work that we do with our educators here in the agency and with our schools is to have them rethink what is their job. So you might introduce yourself as the superintendent of a particular district. And when we talk about that purpose, we ask them to rethink that. Are you the builder of dreams?
Are you the enabler of opportunities? What is it that you do? And think of that in terms of the staff member that you're hiring. Are you hiring a fifth grade teacher or are you hiring a next level readiness expert? But get them to think beyond This [00:27:00] title that they have, but the work in your particular district that you're going to ask them to do, that you're going to invite them to do, that you are going to celebrate their ability to do.
So really be thinking about this, the successful candidate here will check these boxes and go beyond teach math. Teach literacy. What is it that what does next level readiness do? What does it look like? What does it feel like sound like at the end of that year? So what is that teacher, for instance, going to be involved in the course of the year and moving kids from where they are to where they need to be?
Dr. Jim: And what does that mean?
The other thing that I want to dig into is you talked about mentoring and what I find interesting about words like mentoring and coaching and that sort of stuff. It could mean anything to anybody. And oftentimes it means completely different things from organization to organization. So one of the success factors that you pointed [00:28:00] out was if you want to better retain your teachers, you need to have a mentoring program in there.
Dr. Jim: And what I'm curious about is I'd like your line of sight on what a good mentoring program looks like.
Colleen Timm: So a good mentoring program really goes beyond the managerial kinds of things that they need to know about. It goes beyond, here's how you make copies, this is where you park, this is how you get lunch. It really is about how do you succeed. In your role, it's the meat of the work that is, an old fashioned thinking that we do those managerial pieces.
This is really about helping them define the mark that they're going to leave. on the school or the district or the agency. So it's really helping them to find what it is that they bring to be able to elevate that and achieve success in that and provide feedback. So we do a lot of work around courageous conversations.
Dr. Jim: How do we really have honest [00:29:00] conversation? And that's led with questions. So we teach mentors to ask good questions. Did you think that lesson worked? Why or why not? Do you think that this student is achieving the goal that you set for him or her? Why or why not? We're asking questions to develop that reflection in our educators so that they can move to independence.
Real good conversation so far and I appreciate you hanging out with us. I think one of the things that would be helpful for us is for you to identify those 34 key things that superintendents should be doing to build a high performance organization that really is focused on retaining their talent.
Colleen Timm: So once you have that purpose, that strong sense of it in yourself, think about how you're going to embed that throughout the organization, from how you post a job to how you onboard somebody to the ongoing work that you're going to do. An interesting note. When I was in Wisconsin as a, as an administrator first, you get to that February, [00:30:00] March area and you get the, people run out of energy.
So I thought it was somewhat our Wisconsin winters. I went to Arizona was the same exact thing. So what I know for sure is that. We start the year with this great sense of purpose, it's tangible, can feel it, and then we lose it as the year goes on. So critical for administrators is to make sure that is embedded throughout the year.
So when we lose energy, we lose focus, we have the push and pull of competing interests. That is the piece that stabilizes us and continues to re energize. Our work. I think that is a key part of it. I think also looking at how do you harness the talents and the energies of your staff? How do you turn them into the experts you need on your staff?
And how do you turn them into ambassadors for your school? An important part for me is that eventually at graduation, I started to have parents and grandparents and aunts and [00:31:00] uncles come to me and say you've turned this organization, your staff has turned this school. At one time we were embarrassed to say we were part of it and now we're proud.
And I think that's. That's how you start to tell it tell that you've moved the needle is when you hear the purpose come back to you.
Dr. Jim: Great stuff. If folks want to continue the conversation, Colleen, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?
Colleen Timm: People can reach out to me by email. They can give me a call and I'm happy to talk with them. I'm passionate about this work. So anybody who'd like to talk further, I would welcome that.
Dr. Jim: I appreciate you hanging out with us and taking us through this crash course of your role and also how you support districts and what you're seeing across your region in terms of some of the gaps and some of the best practices that other leaders are using to solve those gaps.
So I think that's a very valuable conversation. I think when I Think about this entire discussion that we had. One of the key things that stands out to me is the focus on the onboarding [00:32:00] phase of any new employee coming into your organization. And, I'm a retention and turnover nerd. So of course I would be paying attention to that.
But I think focusing in on the experience that an employee has, the minute they set foot in your doors. Even before they're even hired, I think goes a long way in demonstrating who you are as a person, who you are as an organization, and what you believe in, what you stand for. And the part of that I really like about what you mentioned is that you have to look to embed that purpose across your entire district at every element as much as you can on the operational side.
So that is a really important lesson. And the reason why it's important is because most people are going to make their decision to stay or leave within an organization within that first 90 days. So if you have a poor employee experience from the interview side as a candidate, all the way through onboarding, you're really setting yourself up for some tough times ahead because it's highly likely that their [00:33:00] employee's experience is not going to be great.
And they're going to be looking at going elsewhere. Within that first 12 to 18 months. So I appreciate you sharing that insight with us. For those of you who've been listening to this conversation. Thanks for hanging out. If you'd like the discussion, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player.
If you haven't already done so make sure you join our community and then tune in next time where we'll have another great leader hanging out with us and sharing with us the game changing insights that help them build a high performing team.