[00:00:00] Dr. Jim: Leading a K through 12 district is tough enough. How much more difficult does the task become when you're in charge of multiple districts? It's often said that you can't serve two masters in this case. How is it even possible to make an impact across multiple districts at the same time?
And that's before you even tackle the challenges associated with defining your role well enough for each district environment. Delivering high impact results while fighting against your nature sounds like an impossible task. And today we're going to talk about how you actually thread that needle and we'll be offering insights on how you manage multiple districts in challenging circumstances.
So who's going to be leading us through that conversation? Today we have Ken Crawford, who has spent 37 years of education in Iowa. He spent 16 years teaching high school business courses before becoming a principal in 2004. He was a 7 through 12 principal for 13 years before becoming a superintendent.
[00:01:00] He's been a superintendent for eight years with seven of them as a shared superintendent between Highland and Waco schools. He's also coached high school football, basketball, and track in his career. He was named as a 2017 finalist for principal of the year by school administrators of Iowa.
He also was part of a breakout session at an SIA conference in 2016. Waco schools has been a four day a week school district for over a decade and Highland schools will undertake the four day a week school school year. Coming this year, along with putting a 15 million bond issue to voters. Each district has an enrollment of just under 520 students with, and each with just over 50 staff members.
Ken is married, has two grown sons and enjoys being a grandfather. He's the third sibling in his family to be an educator, and he resides in Riverside, Iowa. Ken, welcome to the show.
[00:01:50] Ken Crawford: Dr. Jim, I appreciate your time today. Thank you.
[00:01:53] Dr. Jim: Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation and happy to have you on. I think if I think about all of the superintendents [00:02:00] that we've interviewed, you're the first one that is. Crazy enough brave enough to take on multiple districts at the same time.
So it'll be an interesting conversation to have, but before we dive into the meat and potatoes of that discussion, I think it's going to be important for you to set the stage a little bit, give us some line of sight into some of the key things that helped shape your leadership philosophy,
[00:02:23] Ken Crawford: I think the leadership scenarios that bring you to hey, am I going to be a superintendent of two school districts? If I'm if even if I'm going to be a principal or a superintendent, I think you're a person that quite frankly Has a high motor likes to run and do multiple things likes to help with the students help with the staff And you're not going to be working You're eight hours and one minute day.
You're going to be working multiple hours, and you're going to be putting in the time that you need, needs to get done to get the job done. So I think that high energy and just knowing that, hey, we're doing this so that the benefit of the districts, the students and the teachers, all of those people are receiving the benefits [00:03:00] of what you're doing.
I think that has to be underlying and has to be a motivational factor for you. Otherwise if it's just, Hey, I want to see if I can do this. I don't know if that's going to be good enough. I think having those leadership qualities of, Hey, multiple tasks, multiple people and working with them and getting to meet so many awesome people.
I think those are great little frameworks that I think, Hey, if you feel you have those qualities and you feel like those are the things you want to do. As well as there's a lot of financial benefits we'll get into later. I think that's an important, those are important factors.
[00:03:33] Dr. Jim: One of the interesting things about what you just mentioned about the high motor attribute that seems to be necessary to pull this off is that often that can get you in trouble. So tell us a little bit more about how you had to manage that motor so that it fit the particular district that you're in because you're serving two different districts.
[00:03:52] Ken Crawford: When I go back to my coaching background, when you go back to your teaching background, you go back to that differentiation in their classroom and coaching, you differentiate I've [00:04:00] coached boys, I've coached girls. So you're used to working with two different types of characteristics of people needs and trying to piece those things together.
So when you take a look at a district. The district that hires me and holds my contract, they're the ones that hired you. They're the ones that brought you in. Their needs and what they're expecting from you. The other district that says, Hey we'd like to share, we'd like to bring you in coming into that, those attributes that I learned from my teaching days, from my coaching days.
And as a principal, you have so many different people that you have to really try to figure out what ticks for them and what makes them work. That's a challenge. And that's the challenge that. You think I want to try that challenge and make that work. And I think that's the key is that how, when people say, do you like, being uncomfortable?
Are you uncomfortable? Are you comfortable with being uncomfortable? And that's a phrase that I hear on a lot of different podcasts, a lot of the leaderships. And that's the phrase, and that's the space that you're going to have to live in is can I take on this challenge? I will be uncomfortable. Can I manage this and make this work for everybody and all the stakeholders involved?
And that, and I enjoy those challenges. [00:05:00] And maybe that makes me crazy, but at the same time, I still believe that's a challenge that I want to step up to and make sure that I can do.
[00:05:06] Dr. Jim: So when you think about the role that you're currently in, you're superintendent of two different districts, was that an intentional decision on your part? Or did it just end up being something that you fell into?
[00:05:18] Ken Crawford: What people have to understand for Iowa, Iowa gives the balance of nine students for your district if you do share a superintendent. So each district gets the equivalent of nine students. So financially. That's a huge benefit for very small districts like we are. We're both very small districts in an Iowa to survive.
If your enrollment goes up or down a little bit, that affects your money quite a bit. So I feel like that money that comes in from the shared and this is what I truly believe this is that keeps your budget balanced as well as provides the money needed for whether it be teacher raises or for curriculum.
I think that's very important for them. So that's my feel of. I know that this is right for both districts financially, and so when Iowa does that, can you take advantage of that? [00:06:00] Should we take advantage of it so that we can at least continue to survive? Both districts want to survive and continue, and small districts in Iowa, it's tough.
[00:06:07] Dr. Jim: One of the things that I'm thinking about as we dig into this conversation is the challenges associated with navigating the people landscape of both districts. So before we dive into the nuts and bolts of that, Tell us a little bit about some of the unique things about both districts that you work and how that shaped how you move in those districts as a leader.
[00:06:31] Ken Crawford: Even though we're in rural Iowa, the one district that I have that's to the north is surrounded by what Iowa calls a metro. It's right by Iowa City. University of Iowa, all that. And then we have two very large districts to our West and on our East, we have some small districts, but we are basically pulling educators from the Iowa City area from the small town.
And so we're very close. The district to the South that I serve, the second district that I serve is much more rural, much more remote. And so that, that. [00:07:00] Provides challenges and has different types of when I say staff clientele for students There are differences, but there are still so many similarities between the two districts of client When I say clientele just the students and the staff on that So I think one I think geography even in Iowa even in a small district plays a big role in And the needs and the differences between those two districts.
[00:07:24] Dr. Jim: So digging into that space a little bit deeper, you have one district that's in quote unquote a metro area, another district that's in a rural area. What's the level of lift in terms of your experience between the two districts? Do you find yourself being more in depth than one versus the other and if so What are the circumstances beyond behind the level of effort that you're putting in within both districts?
[00:07:49] Ken Crawford: The hard thing is that even if you're a 50 50 superintendent or a 75 25, it just depends on what the district's really want. But when you're talking about lift and what each district needs, the phrase is that [00:08:00] something, as a superintendent or principal, something, the phrase is something's on fire.
You just don't want one district on fire or both districts on fire at the same time. And that's the hard thing. I think that's probably the hardest thing is that each district. While you can say you're 50 50, you're 75 25, you really are 100 and 100. The needs of each district, it, it plays out to where if they need something at that time, you gotta provide that at that time.
And if that's either through an email, phone call, or you hop in your truck and head back down and you take care of it, you have to do those types of things there. So that's the strain and the struggle of the job. And at the same time, You have to have very clear definitions of where you're going to go and what you're going to do in each district.
And I feel like through experience and through leadership and then getting to know the people involved, and that's when you talk about relationships. I hope we spend a lot more time on, on those two topics the most, because that's truly how it works the best. And you do that, but you're trying to get the, when you talk about lift, you're trying to figure out what are the three most important things for this [00:09:00] district?
What are the three most important things for the other district? And then that's what you're working on all the time.
[00:09:04] Dr. Jim: I like how you phrase that, you can say it's 50 50 or 75 25, but it's really 100 100. And what you need to do as a leader is recognize that there's always going to be something that catches fire. You just need to make sure or try as best as you can that multiple things are on.
Aren't on fire at the same time, which leads to the conversation about building trust and building lanes within each of these districts. So tell us a little bit more about some of the systems and processes that you put into place so that you wouldn't have to be in multiple places at the same time when things are burning down.
What was the process that you put into place so that you have some bandwidth and you're actually building that layer underneath you?
[00:09:48] Ken Crawford: And I think that goes back to a little bit with your school boards and a little bit with the major projects that you want to get done. Are you going to be focusing on finances? Is it going to be a focus on facilities? Or is it going to be culture [00:10:00] or is it going to be straight academics? And I think those four pillars have always guided me as a superintendent.
I think those are the four that we, that I always talk about. Where do you need me the most in this district? And I know with one district, I know it's a lot with facilities. I know in another district, it's a lot with culture. And so then that boils down to using your layered approach to what can your principles do in those areas that can help you and, or I've got this you guys go take care of the other Issues that are popping up on that and when I say go take care of it's about what's really hard in administration is keeping the consistency of your leaders And i've been very lucky to have the consistency in both buildings to where They know the work they need to do the work and they know the work I need to do and so we don't have Cross purposes.
We're not trying to outdo each other We're not trying to do any of those if you're going to have egos if you're going to have scenarios of people saying Hey, I want to do More than you or have the board stand out to the board more. That's going to be problems. Everybody has to, when we talk about [00:11:00] leadership and good teams, has everybody doing what they should do instead of trying to do somebody else's job.
And I know that may sound simple, but every great team I've ever been a part of, whether I've been coaching a principal or superintendent, everybody's doing their job and not trying to cross over and try to do more or less.
[00:11:17] Dr. Jim: So that's really interesting, and I understand it from a conceptual perspective, but I would have thought that with both districts being relatively small, you would need a lot of crossover work being done. So things are getting done effectively. I think of it like being in a startup environment. If you're in a startup in the private sector, you wear a lot of different hats.
So it's interesting that you mentioned that you focused on, You know, defining roles and responsibilities. So taking that a step further, when I think about the things that you described, as a superintendent, each district has different needs. So do you focus on finances, facilities, culture, all of these different things? I would think. [00:12:00] That if you're splitting time between two different districts and you're a hundred hundred in both of those districts, superintendent is probably relegated to focusing in on the operational and financial stuff while principals are focusing on the cultural stuff. Yeah. Am I on the right track or off track?
What are, what's your read on that? How did you separate those roles based on what what each building or district needed?
[00:12:23] Ken Crawford: I separated, I look at, like I said, those four pillars and it's like, what is our focus for this year? And with one school, with our bond issue that's coming up for 15 million, it's really about facilities. And so it's working with a professional company to give me the help. And the work to get all the information ready to go out to the community.
It's writing up all the letters to the newspaper and to the community and then getting the yes committee and leading them into that as another building is saying, or the other district saying is we want to focus on culture. And if they're focusing on culture, then how do I fit into that area of it?
It doesn't mean I ignore finances. It doesn't mean I ignore the other [00:13:00] stuff, but again, the trust. That you have to have in your leaders and the relationships that you're building with your leaders. While those seem very simple and yeah, we get that. Duh, everybody knows those two things. They really have to be good at those though, their qualities to get that done so that you can work on the things you need to get done what you need to, again, if we're both trying to do the same thing, it's not going to work.
And. And I feel like each district's been very good about saying these are the things we want you to work on. While those other things are important as well, we need you to knock this out of the park.
[00:13:30] Dr. Jim: When you look at, everybody has a certain set of defined swimlanes at each district. What was your process for getting a line of sight in terms of progress? Because yeah, you're the superintendent. So you have responsibility over everything that happens in the district.
You can say, Hey, these are my lanes, but you're responsible for all the things. So what did you do across both districts so that you were sure that things weren't getting missed and, or things were progressing in a way that they needed [00:14:00] to for everybody to be on track.
[00:14:01] Ken Crawford: I think what's been very, I've been very fortunate to have some very good leaders through my career to model what I think is very important, and that's your weekly admin meeting. Having that as a Google, we do that as a Google Doc, everybody adds to it. But here are the things that we have to get done for this week.
Where are we at on them? Who's doing them? And do we have it all ready to go? When I say who's doing them, we all know who's doing it. But if there's questions, we can really define that out. And while those are Weekly meetings in each district, but also that morning walk around when you say you're super busy.
Yeah, you're super busy But it's also a personal relationship But that's what I really enjoy still about educational personal relationships of getting in the classrooms getting to know the teachers getting know the principles But also I have to get to maintenance. I have to get to the nutrition. I have to get to Our custodial staffs and make sure that everything that we have in place is lined up And that's a lot of communication a lot of talking when people say hey Wow, you didn't sweat today.
I didn't sweat, but I talked to 6, 000 people a day for everything. And that's just making sure you're checking in every week [00:15:00] with every single person on the task that you have. And while emails work and it's nice, you still need to make sure that you're still out there and meeting people and doing that personally.
And I think that to me is a good quality. I think I do well, but that's my opinion. But when you talk about trying to get all of that put together, you're just Checking in on every single people every single person making sure we're on the same page and then you and then I don't always say it every single day But I always like to say when we're done with it.
All right, sounds good go and then boom I'm off and running and that's my hardest thing too is that sometimes you go we talked on Monday Tuesday What day was that and you're like? Holy cow. The week goes, weeks go fast. That's for sure. But I try to say, I'm sorry. I just always tried to say when we're done with that conversation, go do what you do.
You have your direction and then it's just about trust from there. I
[00:15:47] Dr. Jim: So I want to zoom out a little bit now. You've been doing this dual superintendency role for a while. And when you think back to when you first took on that responsibility, [00:16:00] what were some of those mistakes that you made that really slowed you down? In terms of how you tackle, these two on one districts.
[00:16:07] Ken Crawford: think of the mistakes I've made And it's tough when you sit here and say, okay where'd you go wrong on stuff? It's trying to find out who are the decision makers, who truly are the decision makers in each district. Because at one district you could say, yeah, it could be the board president or the board president says, no, it's this person, but you need, that's.
Who is making decisions in that district that you need to be in relationship with, that you need to make sure that you gain trust in, so that you can start to build the capacity to say, okay, I think you're doing great in that job, continue, or hey, you've got enough to do. Let me take that on. It's my role.
And I think finding the decision makers. And the influencers in a building is very difficult, even though people will say, even if a board says, Hey, this is who it is, or, Hey, here's what we want you to do. It's still very organic in each building. And so I've, or each district, I should say, and I feel like I struggled a lot in the second district finding out.
Who are the [00:17:00] decision makers, who are my influencers, and who are the people that I can trust and get things done. That, you can be told who they are, but that's not how that's going to work. There are, there's people doing that right now that you need to find out who they are.
[00:17:11] Dr. Jim: The way that I understand it, as you came into a district, people from At the board level said, Hey, these are your key people. And then you actually started discovering that wasn't the case. So what was your process for identifying who are the actual key people, key stakeholders within each of those districts when you realize that, Hey, what you were told was different from what the actual situation on the ground is.
[00:17:35] Ken Crawford: The process is called making, when you say make mistakes, there's the mistakes made is that you sit there and you go, okay, it's these people. But what the process is truly my process is watching at board meetings. I'm not talking the entire time. You're turning over a variety of different.
conversations to different people that, you know, from your principals to your board secretary to, we always try to bring somebody in every board meeting. And then you just, you've got to really observe and see who [00:18:00] is making decisions, even among the board members. And so I feel like I'm always I've always tried to do things where it's I'm going to do the, I'm going to, I know what I need to do for sure.
And now I need to see when this decision's made, who's talking and who's really, who is everybody else following? And that's what I have. I feel like I did a good job at one district and the other district, I felt like it took me longer than it should have. I feel like. Why am I fighting this when really this person is the person that is the influencer in the group that is making the decisions and I need to make sure that I'm building trust with them and being in their circle so that I can say, okay.
Here's what I think, why do you think this, and then having a conversation with them.
[00:18:36] Dr. Jim: So taking a different look. At the circumstances that you're in you're leading two different districts and you're, you've described yourself from an attribute perspective as being somebody that is pretty high energy high motor. One of the challenges that can happen when you're wired that way, especially if you're not as hands on as you would like to be.
In the environment is getting frustrated at [00:19:00] the pace of play from people underneath you. So did you encounter that? And if you did, how did you work on managing your expectations and raising everybody else's level so that they're operating at a pace that you were okay with?
[00:19:13] Ken Crawford: What I found out about myself, we do colors training in both districts, and I think it's awesome. And if you're familiar with that, you can be gold, you can be green, you can be blue, or you can be orange. And gold is checklist type of people I have a little bit of blue in me, which is more emotional, which I know some people might not say, I don't see enough blue, but I'd like to see that, but I'm a gold checklist person.
So what I have found for both districts is truly, I put together Google sheets, I put together checklists, and I, and when we check in with everybody every single time, it's are we staying to my, are we staying to the checklist we came up with? And the timelines of that checklist. And then what are the, what are they running into as far as what's blocking them from getting things done?
And I think when everybody knows we're going to talk about it every week and we have timelines set up, I think that helps move people along. Some [00:20:00] people may call that pressure, but I call it. I'm getting pressure too, because we want to get these things done. And the answer to the school board is I don't know, I can't give that answer.
I can't give the answer. I'll check on that later and find out. No, they want to know. So I, so the pressure that comes on me to make sure I know all those things, I feel like with my checklist and talking with everybody every single week about, Hey, where are we at? What's going on? And then also the question comes back to, what do you need for me?
What do you need me to do? Because there's moments in time where it's like, Hey, I've called this guy five times. You won't get back to me. Can you call him? And. And that's where they get frustrated too because it's like when I say hey I'm the superintendent and they call me back that frustrates those people as well too because like I'm, sorry, the title sometimes works and that's not fair to them as well But I feel like when we go to gold check when as a gold person going to checklists and continually always saying Where are we at on these projects and having lists that helps me out tremendously because trying to keep it all straight Just mentally and upstairs might no cannot do that.
I cannot
[00:20:56] Dr. Jim: It's interesting that you describe checklists. And when you describe that, I [00:21:00] automatically went through progress management or project management and typically how elements of a project are tracked over time.
I guess one of the things that I'd be curious about is when you're building that master checklist. That all starts with different initiatives that exists within the school What was your process for identifying those initiatives? As well as gaining agreement with everybody in the district that these are the things that we need to get done That sit within those those initiatives So walk us through what you did on that front to make sure that everybody is operating from the same playbook
[00:21:33] Ken Crawford: when The thing that I think and I don't know How everybody operates. But I feel like our board retreat that we do every June, I think when we sit down and say, okay, what are the goals for my evaluation? Where are we looking at for those four pillars now? Okay, if this pillar is like we said facilities for one Okay What inside of those facilities are we're looking for and when we're talking about a bond issue Those become very clear of what they would want to do and then it comes up to okay now you got a facilities Committee do we need to hire [00:22:00] another firm to come in and walk us through a facility study?
and so I feel like our It all starts with the board making a decision on what is our focus for this year, game planning a little bit of what is those, what are those things that we need to get done. And then it's up to me to piece that together and push it on down the line from. From our administrative meetings to our all my meetings with the fight with maintenance with nutrition and making sure that we're all online at the start of the year.
And that's some people may say that's it has the challenges at times, but it's having those conversations and understanding relationship wise. Here's where the board's looking. Here's where I think we can do it. Give me some feedback on where we're in line, where we're offline, and what do we got to do to get there?
People I've worked with in both districts know that we're trying to do something for the kids. What's best for the students. And I feel like we frame that extremely well in both districts. So I'm lucky in that way.
[00:22:52] Dr. Jim: One of the things that makes a lot of sense to me is that if you're a smaller school district This makes a lot of sense, but i'm still having trouble getting [00:23:00] over The fact that people might not be able to fully commit to either district because you have a split focus.
So I guess one of the things that I'd be curious about. Is your perspective on what it actually takes to pull this off successfully? What are the attributes that somebody needs to know and understand about themselves to manage this sort of dual focus role?
[00:23:23] Ken Crawford: Again, I think when you talk about superintendents and you talk about principals, any of those, high energy and really liking that isn't just enough, I think you really have to understand the survival for the school district, what's good for the school district, but also are you ready for that challenge?
And I, and it's not for everybody, cause I know some superintendents are like, nope, one district's enough. I don't know how you do that. And that's not a, Oh, woe is me. It's the challenge that's there. You've really got to say to yourself, I want this challenge. I can make this work, but also I know that these districts need this and they're going to be flexible on the backside of, Hey, we know he's not going to be sitting in his desk every single day.
I can't just walk in and talk to them. So I [00:24:00] think the challenge is, you have to be a person that is somewhat motivated by the challenges. And also, what I think I enjoy, when you say, how do you enjoy two jobs? How do you ever have time to yourself? Yeah, the days are a little bit long, but for administration, for teachers, days are long anyway.
It's the nature of the profession anymore. But it's, I feel like this, I get to learn this job twice as fast. And that's the thing I really do enjoy is that, okay, what I do in one district for a board meeting, I know I'm going to be doing it again real quick. And so it's like teaching a class first hour, and then I've got another one, the same one, fourth hour.
You don't teach them exactly the same, but you learn a lot in that first hour. And so I enjoy that challenge of, okay, we put this together. We've got it ready to go. I get questions that I'm not quite sure I do research when the next one comes up next week for board meeting, I feel I'm so much more prepared.
I'm so much more ready to go. And the learning of that and the competition to learn as much as possible, as fast as possible, that's. I enjoy that, but it is, it does take its toll. So it is not for everybody on that.
[00:24:58] Dr. Jim: so you asked a really [00:25:00] important question as you were giving your answer and that was, are you ready to take on that sort of challenge? And I think at this point in the conversation, What I'd like to hear from you is, you're a checklist guy. What are the checklist things that somebody needs to check off in their own head to determine, Hey, am I ready for this sort of responsibility?
What are some of those things that people should be asking things that people should be checking off to self evaluate their readiness to take on this sort of role?
[00:25:30] Ken Crawford: Great question. I think the checklist, trying to piece that together, I really think you have to determine now, when you talk about balance of life and we know balance is a great word. And it's like a buzzword that they have, nothing's 50, 50 on those types of things there too. But where are you at in your career?
Because I feel I've been lucky enough, believe it or not, by looking at me. I'm not young guy. My kids are grown. My kids are not in sports anymore, and so I, I would be, if I was trying to do this at 45 and my kids were in high school going to all their events your checklist, your first things [00:26:00] personally, where are you at in your life?
And I, and to me, my wife and I, yes, we understand the toll that it's going to take, but at the same time, my pull from home is not the way it was 15 years ago. And my kids were going through. classes athletics all those types of things. So I think personally, you have to make sure that you're at a space personally, that you have the time to buzz back and forth between two districts.
I think the second thing is truly, are you competitive in learning as much as you possibly can about that job? And I think that's a, That's something that I've always been. I like learning. I enjoy the learning. I like the challenge of that learning and I want to learn this job as fast as possible and it's helped me accelerate that knowledge.
So I think personally, you have to be in a spot where you're going to have a little bit more time. Because I just can't buzz out at 4. 30 to go to a junior high meet or those types of things there. You're just going to have a little bit more time for some committees and for board meetings and for work sessions.
And in my life, I'm at that spot. 15 years ago, I would not have been able to do this. So I think personally, those checklists are very important. [00:27:00] Talking to your spouse about how many nights will I be gone during the month? How many events will I have to go to? And if you talk about what suffered is that I can not spend as much time at events as I did as a principal or as a coach, personally get those checklists involved and also, What challenges are you ready for as a professional?
Those are the my two big things
[00:27:19] Dr. Jim: Now, that's really good stuff. If can, if people want to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?
[00:27:25] Ken Crawford: I would say just email me at either of my districts on those types of things. I know that I know we've had a lot of emails to both districts about our four day week, so Sending an email it's out there and more than happy to respond back and talk to people about The challenges or what else they should be looking for any issues that they have.
Because if you're having an issue and you're not quite sure I can almost guarantee you I've had that issue. So it's just trying to work through it together. And that's the thing in education that I think teachers and coaches do a great job of but principals and superintendents don't do a good job of networking with each other to talk through.
Hey, I ran into this. Help, give me some [00:28:00] suggestions. What are some thoughts? So that's what I'd hope I could do for people.
[00:28:02] Dr. Jim: Great stuff, Ken. I I appreciate you hanging out with us and sharing with us your story, as well as how you're tackling this this job of shaping two different districts.
Now, When I think about the conversation that we had, I think one of the most important things that stand out about this particular conversation when it comes to success factors is the definition of the role and also building role alignment and understanding across the people underneath you.
And. It might sound trite, but the idea of staying in your lane becomes critically important when you're managing two different roles like this. And that's where I feel like there is a pretty significant value in being as organized as possible when you're trying to pull this off. So it's not enough to have the motor.
It's not enough to have the experience. It's not enough to have the understanding of what the role requires. You need to have an underlying infrastructure of [00:29:00] organization that will help you succeed. So I appreciate you sharing that and communicating that with us today on the show, for those of you who have been listening to the conversation, we hope you liked it, make sure you leave us a review
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