[00:00:00] Dr. Jim: Thanks for joining us today. This is your friendly neighborhood town strategy nerd, Dr. Jim. How do you get everybody on the same page while also making sure that the appropriate level of guardrails are in place for effective decision making? One of the biggest challenges in organizations has to do with getting folks on the front lines, visibility into what needs to be done and what's happening at the higher levels of the organization.
We know what happens when that doesn't occur. There's often an execution gap that comes out of that in today's conversation. We'll tackle how to create transparency and decision making. So you have more agility on the front lines. So who's going to be guiding us through this conversation? Today we have Jill Reese, who is joining us, and she's had over 30 years in the education space.
That journey has taken her from teaching to her current role as superintendent She's held multiple administrative roles in wisconsin school districts And she began her teaching career at the milwaukee public schools and then moved to teach in waukesha She taught art for elementary and high school students and overall [00:01:00] She believes that every child has the potential and deserves a high quality and supportive learning experience over her administrative career She's been in many roles in Including a high school associate principal, a principal and assistant director of curriculum, a director of performance and effectiveness, and a director of curriculum and instruction.
And finally superintendent Jill, welcome to the show.
[00:01:20] Dr. Jill Ries: Thank you, Dr. Jim. I'm happy to be here.
[00:01:22] Dr. Jim: Looking forward to having this conversation with you and and sharing your perspective. I think before we dive into the the conversation and specifically focusing in on how you build transparency and clarity in decision making, I think it's important for the listeners to know and understand a little bit more about you.
So why don't you share with us some of those key moments in your life. your career that helped shape your leadership philosophy and how that connects with how you show up as a leader today.
[00:01:52] Dr. Jill Ries: Thank you. So I go back to my early years as an art teacher, and I joined a very high powered art team [00:02:00] in the Waukesha School District at the time, and the director of art at the was really instrumental in my leadership development. He not only encouraged me along the way, but he also encouraged me to be more collaborative .
There were many teachers in the department at the time that had been in the district and in the department for a number of years and had kind of been set in their ways. And he encouraged me actually at that time to help them break out of the mold a little bit help them begin to share their tools, their items, their lesson plans.
Honestly, it came down to that. And that we could be a more collaborative art group in terms of the district, because there were about 50 art teachers at the time in the district. And just work together, and that was instrumental. In addition, I had a principal at the time who just had an interesting way of making decisions, and I learned probably more from him at the time about things not to do in decision making, but helped me then discover what I needed to do in my own.
Leadership development for [00:03:00] decision making and some of it was just the approach that he took and he was a well loved, well liked principal, but sometimes when it came to decision making, there were just some steps that he took that weren't thought of very positively. So, it helped me uncover sort of the stance I was going to take and the angle I was going to take to develop decisions over the years.
[00:03:21] Dr. Jim: One of the really interesting things about what you mentioned was your comment about there are some people in the organization when you were an art teacher that was set in their ways. And the reason why it caught my attention is that when I think about any sort of leadership role. Leaders come into organizations and you have frontline staff that might have been there for a while and they could have a tendency to just wait you out.
Oh, you're the new person. I'll just wait, two or three years and you'll be gone. And then I can keep doing what I've been doing. What were the things that you've done throughout your career to get people out of that wait and see, or [00:04:00] wait out mentality and really buy in.
[00:04:02] Dr. Jill Ries: the building block for this, in my mind, is starting with relationships. And it's starting with relationships at the ground up. I'll give you, go back to the example I was sharing about working in the art department. I was by far the youngest teacher that joined the art department at that time.
And for me, it was about building relationships with people that had experiences that had a knowledge base that I didn't have, but also then building a relationship so that I could then share some of the knowledge I was bringing as a brand new teacher and some of the. Like strategies and lesson plans and things I was bringing as a new teacher, I would not have been able to be successful at that or be able to do that if I didn't take the time to get to know the person and develop the relationship with them first.
And so it wasn't about shaping what they did. It was about building a bond with them to see that we could move forward in the same direction. And I think I look back on some of the work that I've done over the [00:05:00] years and I remember being in a meeting when I was at the high school and I said something about shaping instruction.
And the high school teacher said, so this is Pavlovian now, correct? And I said, no, that's not what I meant. But I had to really rethink even my language on it, too. Because I didn't mean to be guiding people in a certain way, but influencing people in a positive way that we could, like I said, build a bond together and then move forward together in the work that we were doing.
[00:05:27] Dr. Jim: There's something really interesting that you mentioned about influence and communication.
The language that we use can influence people in good or bad ways. And that particular example that you mentioned is one instance where a specific Language that you use impacted somebody in a way that you didn't intend. What are some of your suggestions when it comes to using language and exerting influence in subtle ways to make sure that you're moving people in the right direction without it creating a lot of friction?
[00:05:57] Dr. Jill Ries: Yeah, I do believe language is [00:06:00] key to having positive results. However, there is some sort of forethought or planning that has to go into that. in order to learn through that process. So I think about my, in my earlier career, right? I maybe would have just said something on the fly or done something like I gave the example of the, when I was an assistant principal and I was relatively new in the leadership role at that time, it was like my second or third year.
So I, I took some learning from that, right. And thought, what are, how can I communicate differently or. Pre planned communication, so to speak, so I'm communicating the way I want to. One of the things that I've come up with over the years, and so, in these leadership roles, you also sometimes have to have difficult conversations with people, unfortunately, it's just the nature of the beast and scripting my talking points help me stay on point and help me focus the conversation in the way [00:07:00] that it's intended to be focused. So, I always tell people if I'm scripting and that I have, I have a script or whatever, and sometimes I even share it with them too because like I said, oftentimes when those difficult conversations.
Come about they're easy to get off track, not only by yourself, but by the person you're having that conversation with. So scripting in my mind has been super helpful in guiding the conversation.
[00:07:26] Dr. Jim: So it's interesting that you use the the phrase or the word scripting. I take what you just said and think more broadly about preparation in general in every conversation that you're going to have. Just about everybody should be in the habit of preparing for who the audience is and getting the big points in place that you want to get across, anticipating some of the questions that might come up out of those those discussions and be ready in that format.
So I don't necessarily think of that from a scripting perspective. I think that's just more of a. Either role direct role play in your head or [00:08:00] just preparing for the conversation based on the audience and the message that you want to get out. Switching gears a little bit. I think one of the things that's going to be helpful in this conversation, when we're talking about communication is getting a line of sight into the district that you're in and what that lands district landscape looks like .
[00:08:19] Dr. Jill Ries: So, the current district that I'm in is quite small. We're a one school district and we have roughly, roughly 450 students that presents its own sort of challenges. I've also worked in districts that have 15, 000 or 20, 000 students and Milwaukee public schools when I was a teacher that has many, many, a hundred, a couple hundred thousand students.
So this district though, brings its own set of challenges being as small as it is because. There is a very cohesive group but the expectations are a very certain way, and because that group is very cohesive and collaborative and professional, they also want things delivered to them in a certain framework [00:09:00] in a certain way.
And so coming into that was a great learning experience for me because this is the smallest district that I've worked in over the course of my career, but also then making a point to understand the climate and the culture and build the relationships and, and take care of those things. So we could move forward with that small, cohesive group.
I think it's important to note that no matter if you're in a large setting or a small setting, those same principles apply.
[00:09:30] Dr. Jim: So one of the things that I'm thinking about when you look at a smaller district and coming into that space. You mentioned earlier when you were early in your career, one of the things that you had to spend time on was breaking breaking habits or getting people to move off of, standard operating procedure for them.
It sounds like you had to deal with some of that when you came into the district because you just mentioned that people are used to doing things a certain way. So before you start [00:10:00] impacting how things were done. What were the steps that you took to create the space for them to actually hear a potential alternative to the direction that that they're used to?
[00:10:10] Dr. Jill Ries: It goes back to the relationships and it's that building block again. And so I being small I offered an opportunity to meet with every staff member and every person on a personal level to meet and talk about what they believed were the strengths and things, something or one or two things they wanted to change.
And so just having that opportunity for people to be heard and to have conversation was my start to building the relationships with the staff in the community here. I also, I, I monthly run superintendents chats for the community. So I build those relationships with the community also, and I do the same with staff too.
And I run those monthly chats with staff.
[00:10:54] Dr. Jim: So one of the things when I opened the show, I mentioned that, one of the challenges with any. [00:11:00] Leader in any new organization is getting people on the same page and then making sure that everybody has the right level of visibility. So when you look at, the district that you came into is particularly small, it's one building.
I would make the assumption that, Hey that's a, that's an easier task to accomplish in a smaller footprint. When you look at your effort at getting everybody on the same page, how did you tackle that?
[00:11:24] Dr. Jill Ries: I looked at starting out by listening and starting out by listening to the needs of the people on the staff and started out by listening to needs of people on the community. We also, the, the school board that I work with also created a couple committees. To sort of inform the work, should I say some of it was to do some financial planning.
Some of it was to do some planning for staff in pay. And those items also inform the work and help to build bridges with people. I think part of it is strategic planning, honestly, at the ground [00:12:00] level. So it's not only looking at building the relationships, but then building in a strategic plan with strategic initiatives to carry the work forward.
And so the board and the community and I and the staff all work together to create a new strategic plan. And then those, that plan is also aligned with school goals. And the goals that teachers then drill down into their classrooms. So, some of it is, honestly, this is an old thing, but having all the arrows point in the same direction versus all over the map.
[00:12:29] Dr. Jim: So when you describe all of that, I would think in a smaller organization, people are probably used to wearing a lot of different hats and having a high degree of involvement in all sorts of different areas, and that can be challenging. When you're trying to get everybody on the same page, because if everybody is doing everything, how do you know what's getting done and how much progress is being made?
[00:12:51] Dr. Jill Ries: Part of it with committees and work, and you are absolutely right. We all wear many, many hats. We do all kinds of different things. And [00:13:00] I'll give you an example. I was serving lunch the other day because somebody in the cafeteria was out, you know, so we all put on a different hat and we do what we need to to get the work done.
Some of it, though, is aligning the committees and groups so they know what their charge is and their purpose is. And so there's the day to day, kind of daily tasks that need to happen, but then there's the committees and the teamwork that needs to happen, and those things have specific charges and guardrails with them. One of the things that has really helped me shape some of that work over the course of the years is something that's called the Ladder of Inference. This ladder of inference is something that's been around since about 1970. Chris Argus is the author of it, but it really helps to not only understand what your assumptions are and what your decision making is, but what the influence is of those assumptions and influence.
So really, it helps to give myself guardrails that I can then [00:14:00] transfer to teams. And one of the things is I do, do believe that as adults, we all have bias. We all have certain understandings. We've all been raised in certain ways. So we bring different understandings and ideas to the table. And part of that is looking at the system for clarity.
And for transparency and understanding where, like, if you are looking at a certain set of data, and you're looking at observing it through a certain reality, the determination of the actions and beliefs that come out of that are going to be a certain way. And so, if you understand the ladder of inference, and you look at it, and you say, this is my set of data.
Now, what if I look at it this way? Or what if I approach it this way? Then your actions and beliefs are going to come out differently. And one of the important things about that is taking multiple perspectives.
[00:14:52] Dr. Jim: What you described makes sense from a theoretical perspective. Do you have a practical example of how you put this into action when you took over within the [00:15:00] district?
[00:15:00] Dr. Jill Ries: One of the things that we have in districts in Wisconsin is employee handbooks. And that came through some contract revision and negotiation stance that was put forward by the state. So, with our handbook, our handbook hadn't been revised in quite a number of years. And so, I took on the handbook revision by looking at several pieces of data we had in the district.
And when I looked at the several pieces of data, I had some certain actions and conclusions that I drew from that data. Where I thought we could make some changes in the handbook. Most of it was around, like, staff absences, substitutes staff days off, things like that. I had taken my thinking through the ladder of inference, but I was taking it in a certain light, to be frank.
And When I took that to staff and talked with them about that, their beliefs and conclusions from it were very different than mine. And so, I did have to [00:16:00] go back several times and rethink the data that I had. Now, data, I believe, is data, but I had to look at the data through a different lens to get to a conclusion where we could all come together on the decision making for the handbook.
And note that this handbook gets approved by the school board, so I did also share the data and information with the school board and help talk it through with them, too, because they also had different beliefs and conclusions that they drew from some of the data that was shared with them and some of the handbook feedback that was shared with them through staff.
So, it's re it was really important for me to take my beliefs through and my data through the letter of inference several different ways and several different times to get to the point where I could understand where staff was coming from and make a decision that would be palatable and workable for the staff and for the district and for the school board.
And so, we got to a [00:17:00] point where we were able to make that decision. The handbook was approved, but it was through several conversations and revisions, and from my own personal lens, going through this ladder of inference and taking the data through in several different lights to see where I could connect more with the staff.
[00:17:18] Dr. Jim: So when you describe all of that, I think the area that's catching me by surprise is that you're doing this within a smaller organization. I wouldn't think you would have these sort of, communication challenges with an organization that's that's a small as it is. So when you look at putting the ladder of influence and inference into play.
Why is it particularly helpful in a smaller organization?
[00:17:41] Dr. Jill Ries: So, because the organization is so tightly knit, and because the organization is so small, the tight knittedness of the organization creates some very small channels of communication. And what I mean by that is, If I, if I put something out about the handbook, [00:18:00] everybody knows right away, if that makes sense. If I ask one person about the handbook or one person about a nuance in the handbook, everybody knows right away. And that is, goes to the nature of being so small because the network is so tiny that the communication happens almost instantaneously. And so when that happens, having not thought things through thoroughly or gone, taken my thinking through the ladder of inference can be dangerous because I have to go back then and retool.
And that's not bad because I'm not, not open to change. But it does create different levels of work. And so, I'm open to doing that and I'm open to revisiting things. But the truth of the small organization is that communication happens almost instantaneously.
[00:18:50] Dr. Jim: So when you're looking at an environment where communication gets filtered through the organization very quickly, what are the steps that you took to make [00:19:00] sure that the message that goes out is the right message at the right time for the right audience?
[00:19:04] Dr. Jill Ries: So, it's interesting that you say that because I, I probably had four or five revisions before we got it right. There is some truth in the fact that you have 1 chance to get it right, but that goes to the, the flexibility of the organization and, i, I guess it is that it's the flexibility of the organization.
It's important that from my lens, it's important that people know that I will be transparent and take feedback to possibly retool and bring out another example or bring forward another charge, because having those four or five revisions to the handbook and to what people had concerns about showed that, but.
I believe that happens in a smaller organization, maybe even more than it happens in a larger organization. Because of the tightness of the communication channels.
[00:19:54] Dr. Jim: The other thing that I'm thinking about when you're trying to create a communication culture [00:20:00] that's right sized at the right level, you probably came into an environment where people are just used to knowing what's going on at all levels of the organization. And there are some things that happen in any organization that's on a need to know basis.
So how did you deal with that sort of pushback when people are realizing I used to know about this sort of stuff and now I'm closed off from it. How did you deal with that without creating hurt feelings because they're feeling left out at this point?
[00:20:26] Dr. Jill Ries: That's a very good question because that's exactly correct. And part of it is, again, the relationship piece, it's building trust with people. And I think it takes a, it takes some time to build trust with people, but it's goes to the walking the talk and doing what you say you're going to do, and then building those relationships with people so they know that there's no malice in them not knowing.
But that is something that has to be built over time and built with some specific strategies, or it won't take hold.
[00:20:57] Dr. Jim: Was there anything that you did when you talk [00:21:00] about, that the time factor is a time factor? Was there anything that you did in terms of specific actions that helped get people over that initial reaction of feeling left out? That, that really helped smooth out this process of shifting the communication culture within the organization.
[00:21:16] Dr. Jill Ries: So, I believe in being having an open door, being fully in front of people and being transparent. And we had a situation where we had gone through negotiations for teacher salary very, very late. The first year I started and we went through a negotiation conversation and people were very unhappy.
So we had happened to have a staff meeting the next day and I just, I knew people were unhappy and I wanted to hear what they were unhappy about. So I stood for 45 minutes in front of staff and just said, tell me what your concerns are. And so we just openly talked and I took down the concerns .
I did ask them at the end what their [00:22:00] top asks were in negotiation. So they gave me two things. And so I took that back to the board then and we worked through it and we were able to honor what their requests were. Part of that on my level was just being willing to step into that circle with people and say, What are your thoughts?
I'm here to listen.
[00:22:19] Dr. Jim: So I like that. When I'm being the doubting Thomas of that approach, and I look at it from another direction that can almost create the impression among the staff that if we ask or raise concerns, that means that there's going to be immediate action, or at least action in the short term that resolves this issue.
So how did you balance out the request for feedback? With the understanding that not every bit of feedback is going to get acted on in terms of a resolution,?
[00:22:46] Dr. Jill Ries: Yeah, part of that goes back to the ladder of inference again, also, because there's, there's in a small organization where the communication is so tight and there's, there's a lot of it. But it's very [00:23:00] tightly knit and people know instantaneously things that are going on. There is a, there's a point of decision making as the superintendent and the person who works with the board and then works with the community and works with the staff where there are things like you said that are need to know and can't know because there's legalities around some of it too, right?
So just being clear with people about the, the sort of division between those things. Like, there are things, I've been clear with them that I will come and ask for feedback and talk to you about. There are things that I cannot do that on. And there are things that go through the board and that are board decisions that happen because they're board decisions.
And so just being clear with people on decision making and transparent with people on what can and can't be sort of discussed. We had an unfortunate situation with a staff member, and I couldn't discuss that, so that wasn't discussed. And there was not a great feeling about that from people, but at the end of the day, I was clear with people [00:24:00] about this is what can, and this is what we can't.
And just being straight with people about not trying to not be transparent with them, but there's things that can't be shared.
[00:24:11] Dr. Jim: That makes sense. When I think about, this effort that you put into place within your district, and I want you to put yourself in the position of speaking to another small district leader that wants to create a tighter communication. Environment. What were the steps that you took to go ahead and implement this successfully?
So you have tighter communication that is more effective. How would you framework this out?
[00:24:37] Dr. Jill Ries: regarding putting this into practice, The biggest thing for me is understanding where people are starting and then looking at what needs to happen and develop from there. So, for me, it's, it starts with building relationships, listening to people and understanding, and then putting into place steps for different committees, different community committees, and different board [00:25:00] committees.
Honestly, I hired a new principal in this whole last couple of years, too, and bringing in a new principal who understands school goals and understands school improvement and school processes and bringing that person in to align. The arrows again and bring in the processes and practices that we need.
So for me, it's about aligning the practices from the district, but then also aligning the practices from the school to connect back to the district strategic plan. And all those things in my mind make the connections go in the same direction.
[00:25:35] Dr. Jim: So when we look at all of the stuff that we've talked so far, I think the piece that we're still missing is what's been the impact. We talked about the environment that you walked into and then you started. Putting this communication plan into place. How have things changed or shifted since that this has been put into place and you've been off and running with it?
[00:25:56] Dr. Jill Ries: I try to be transparent and take feedback. So I get [00:26:00] positive feedback from people in the trenches on this. But also we've seen a shift in our student learning and a shift in our increase in our student learning outcomes, which is at the bottom of the end of the day what we're really about.
So we've seen a positive shift in that. And in terms of parent communication and community connections, we've seen. A shift in some areas up in some areas that we still need to work on, but we gather data every year on that. So, I have an understanding of where we need to continue working.
[00:26:32] Dr. Jim: Jill. I appreciate you sharing your experience with us. I want you to shift gears a little bit and think about that superintendent that's listening to this conversation and they want to build a more effective communication culture within their organization.
Based on what you've done through your career, what are the key things that they need to keep in mind as they try to implement the ladder of influence and influence within their district?
[00:26:58] Dr. Jill Ries: So, at the end of the [00:27:00] day, it starts with the superintendent themselves and part of it is understanding where, how you make decisions and how you frame decisions. And so, I would encourage people to really look up the letter of inference and understand it. I would encourage them to do some reading about it and just then think about some practical application in their current situation and how they could use it in their current situation.
So part of the beauty of using something like the ladder of inference is it helps you, gives you the opportunity to take your thoughts and your ideas through the ladder of inference and look at different sides of an argument. And one of the things that I've noticed is we have people all over the map on, on opinions, decisions, things like that.
And it's really important to see things through people's eyes. And it, the Ladder of Inference helps you do that if you're willing to personally take the Ladder of Inference into your own account. [00:28:00] And then take different belief statements, different opinions, different actions through that letter of inference.
And so I would just advise people to really take a serious look at it, because I do believe that when you do that, it helps you grow your own practice. The other part is for the district. As you practice those traits and you practice learning through the ladder of inference, sharing with people what you're doing and why you're doing it.
And I think that is really crucial to helping the organization also understand that and start to do that work. Now, again, as I've talked a lot about relationships and transparency and those pieces, those are part of not only building up the ladder of inference, but just good practice that help to communicate with people on a level where you can bring forward something like the ladder of inference.
[00:28:53] Dr. Jim: Great stuff, Jill. If folks want to continue the conversation with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?
[00:28:59] Dr. Jill Ries: Really, it's [00:29:00] probably my email. If you want to connect with me in terms of the school, we also have a very robust district website and access to myself through the website and through our reception office
[00:29:13] Dr. Jim: I appreciate you hanging out with us and sharing with us your experience in building a, an effective communication culture.
The big lesson that stood out to me is that there's a lot of elements of stoicism that takes that are built into this approach that you're talking about. When you're talking about building relationships, looking at data and also, I Seeing how that data impacts multiple people from different perspectives, the key thing and all of that from a you perspective is that you have to disconnect in a lot of ways from your reaction to what is being said and try to incorporate that as objectively as possible.
So being able to evaluate information that you're getting in a dispassionate way. Is a really good way to create the type of [00:30:00] communication culture where you're highly effective and you're taking the emotion out of a lot of things that might be.
Emotional when you apply your own biases to it. So that's what I took away from this conversation For those of you who've been listening to this discussion We appreciate you hanging out if you like the conversation make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player if you haven't already done so make sure you join our K through 12 leadership community. And then tune in next time where we'll have another great leader hanging out with us and sharing with us the game changing insights that helped them build a high performing teams.