"Steadfast Democrats" Five Years Later: A Conversation with Chryl N. Laird

Welcome to the new books. I'm Caleb Zakron, editor of the New Books Network. Today I'm speaking with Cheryl Laird, Associate Professor of Government and Politics at the University of Maryland College Park. We are discussing her co-authored book with Ishmael White, Steadfast Democrats. How Social Forces Shape Black Political Behavior. Published in 2020, this book remains highly relevant for understanding American political behavior.

While Trump did make significant gains among black voters in twenty twenty four, particularly male voters, African American voters still overwhelmingly support the Democratic Party. Cheryl has appeared on the MBN in the past, so while we discussed the book, we're also going to discuss it in the context of today. Cheryl, thanks so much for joining me today on the New Books Network. Thank you for having me.

Of course, you know, th th this book was so fascinating to read. And I think uh, you know, what was most particularly fascinating to read was just the way in which you tested various hypotheses. I think that sometimes people, uh, especially with with certain voter behavior, they take

uh to take things at face value, to take things for granted. You know, I the other thing too is, you know, when I first initially saw the title, I thought, um, you know, steadfast democrats is something that that could apply to various groups. I I'm Jewish, for example, and

When I steadfast Democrats, you could say that about about Jewish voters as well. Though of course twenty twenty four was also an election that might have uh shaken the foundations of that assumption about Jewish voters. And I think that people are some people are making the case that that might be the case. uh with the twenty twenty four election that that's uh it's changing the the nature of the the democratic big tent that has been established over time. So

I think uh, you know, a a lot of the findings of the book book are still really relevant, but also there's been a lot of really interesting changes that I definitely uh wanna discuss with you as well. But before jumping to the book, I was wondering if you just introduce yourself to listeners, uh, who you are, how you got into academia, you know, why you study what you study.

Excellent. Um, so um my name is Cheryl Laird, uh as stated before, uh and um I found my way into the academy um because, you know, when I was an undergrad, I planned to be a lawyer at one point. Um, and I took a class and a graduate student TA told me, Hey, you might be interested in doing a summer program around

this area of political science, um, around political science and and st and doing some work and research there. And I was really geeked on college. Um I'm a first gen student. My parents are Jamaican immigrants. I was like a head start, free, reduce lunch kid.

Um, and so I really do well with education and so I was I was thrilled with the idea, like, oh, I could just go do this program. Um and she's like, Yeah, it's geared towards people going for a PhD. And I was like, I don't I don't even I didn't even know how professors got created, to be quite honest. Um, this was the Ralph Bunch Summer Institute run by the American Political Science Association. Um, and it was like one of the first opportunities I got introduced to becoming a professor.

Uh, and so I did this summer training and then I went on to become a McNair scholar and that kind of then McNair, the Ronald McNair program through the federal government um is a trio program and it's designed to try to help first gen students, low income students. underrepresented students, um, on career paths towards PhD in the sciences, social sciences and even in the humanities in some areas. Um, and so uh that's kinda how I ended up

Making my way to the academy. My focus on African Americans and black people broadly construed stemmed a lot from. Actually my first interaction with it was in high school. I took a African American studies class in high school. Uh had no idea that that could be a class uh and was thrilled. It was taught actually by a white woman. I wish I could remember her name is probably somewhere on a document in my house.

Uh but uh she was fantastic. Uh and uh I was really excited about it. So I came into college actually as an African American studies major with a plan to go to law school. Um, and then transition that into studying black politics and political behavior. Um, and I've been very fortunate to have incredible training.

from various scholars who are some of the leading people in the field now and today, including my co author, uh, who have just been um fantastic in making me really push myself to think about the kinds of questions That we bring to bear when we try to understand black political behavior um and basically in large part to thinking about things that we know go on as also members of the collect of the community, um, but trying to figure out how to make that make sense.

in our political science, technical language and methods um of scientific testing. And so that's a lot of what was with Steadfast. And I think that's why that project means a lot to both of us um was that How do we explain this thing that we know is happening and test it and show that this is going on and make it something that people who are not living this can understand what's going on.

Absolutely. And and I think that the way in which you approach this was was really fascinating, you know, very it very it was very data driven and also, you know, a little bit of uh th there's some almost uh social uh psychology components to it too and in trying to get around people's biases or the way in which people might answer.

uh questions in certain contexts because they might say, especially with politics, you know, it's one of those things I think as we learn over and over again that people might say one thing and then they vote another way. And then that can lead to to political outcomes that are very uh unexpected, um, you know, as as has happened.

a few times in the p past uh I mean, not just a few times in the past ten years, but a few times forever. Um You know, s something uh something I think just to to get into a little bit of the history of it, because I I think people now uh you know, it without any historical backing uh background, people might assume that the way in which people vote now is the way things have been forever. Um of course that that hasn't always been the case.

I'm actually there's a a a a brief like story I just wanna quickly um add, but basically my uh My grandfather, he was a you know, a GI Bill uh recipient and was a hardcore FDR Democrat supporter. And um my uncle grew up in Brooklyn, his hero was Jackie Robinson, and when he was about 13, 14 years old, he joined the uh Young Republicans because he heard that Jackie Robinson was going to be at the Young Republican meetup.

And he wanted to meet Jackie Robinson. My my uh my grandfather was of course like furious to to hear this and I don't think he actually ended up going, but It's interesting. Jackie Robinson, you know, he broke the color barrier of baseball. People might not associate that with uh a Republican

voter. He obviously might have had his own particular reasons why he would be there uh or be a Republican. But of course the Republican Party was different. Uh the voter base was different. And the same thing is true for the Democratic voter base. So Can you just give a little bit of background history of the Democrat versus Republican uh makeup of the parties and who voted for them?

Yeah. So, you know, um, I think um through the lens of how we approach s some of this thinking is is through the lens of race. And um, you know, what you have is, you know, the Republican Party at a particular point in history, especially around the era of

uh the ending of the civil war, right? Abraham Lincoln referred to often as the great emancipator, um, basically ushers in, you know, the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth amendments, right? And that is the prohibition of slavery except for, you know, for the form of punishment.

Right. We also get the fourteen men with equal protection, then we get the fifteenth amendment with uh the right to vote for African Americans and particularly African American men, right? Uh and so with that, right, I think there was a very strong already kind of norm forming there where this is the party that seems to be representative of the interest of black people.

Right. Um, and that other interests that were out there tended to lean towards the Democrats, particularly when it came to should we keep the institution of incitement? Um, or not? Uh, and the Republican Party taking a different stance. So for a while you had a significant amount of loyalty to the Republican Party. You have the realization of black

um representation happening through the Republican Party at that time as well. Like when they talk about Tim Scott today as a senator from the South, right? Like it's Reconstruction. Um when we had one that was African American from the South. Um and so that power move um was something that was very important to black people finally feeling like they had a voice.

um in the system of government and a f and in part of the franchise where they had previously been basically denied their citizenship, right? Um, And so from there, right, you then see Republican Party kind of staying the course on that. But then there are things that kind of chip away.

at that, particularly with the decline in Reconstruction, um, with what follows in the political sci um the black politics st uh work we talk about, um, in black studies work like the Nadir, right? So this is the era Following Reconstruction where you have a significant amount of racial violence, the removal of federal troops.

um black people really facing a hostile southern environment. Um, this provides some of those push factors that lead to many black people leaving the southern United States. moving to northern regions because there's economic opportunity in the growing industrial era, but they're also fleeing.

literal violence. Like, um, I think it's something that historically, um, when you take a history class normally it is not talked about in great detail, but I'm talking about just straight up violence. Right. Like People being killed, burning down houses, burning down communities, um targeting particular people. Um

making claims about criminality and behavior that are unsubstantiated, purely propaganda, and using it as justifiable to cause incredible harm or fatal um outcomes for people. Uh so people are finding ways to exit out of that environment. Um, and when you get into kind of the early twentieth century, right, um, there's still um s some sort the solidified way in which black people have been supporting the Republican Party.

But again, what you have now is a new economic situation emerge, right? And one would talk about like the depression being a really big factor um in where you start to see a shift. in largess of black people moving towards the Democratic Party. However, keep in mind the Voting Rights Act has not happened yet.

So when we're talking about black people voting, it's a very limited number of black people who are being able to vote. Um, right. So a large amount of black people are not necessarily participating in the franchise, but they are leaning um in ways where like what seems to be being done by FDR uh and his response to the crisis um is

better than what he's hearing from others who are part of other coalitions, right? Um And then not too far after that, I would say that the civil rights period serves as a as a massive like kind of final nail there in the shift in terms of the partisan realignment that occurs, right? Because you see the Democratic Party, moving in a way that now is more embracing of civil rights, um, not necessarily um

in a like we're so gung ho, but more like we are at least, you know, more um with the idea that this seems to be something that needs to happen, right? There seems to be injustices. going on, the civil rights movement, particularly that's talked about in the nineteen fifties to the nineteen sixties. period um is uh incredibly influential, right? It's a long road, but it is a road of activism um and pressure being put on government to put in protections.

to address the inequalities and the discrimination and the racial practices that are happening to black people. um and the denial of access to public accommodations, the denial of access to public resources, the things that we are paying for as taxpayers, but are not reaping the benefits of, right? We are getting denied and getting um dealt basically, you know, not not the best bag of things.

Um, and so uh therein you see really uh like kind of final shift with the Southern positionality on civil rights. Not being where black people were. Um, and so moving to the party that seems to be more in line with that, right? So you have Kennedy, you have LBJ. people that black people were thinking like these people seem to embody what we're looking for. And from there on you see a lot more of the representation and the leadership that comes in the elected space.

coming through the Democratic Party. Um, but there is an entire history with Republicans and African Americans and Um, you know, Leo Wright Rager's book, The Loneliness of the Black Republic, and also with Princeton Press, I think gets into a really interesting conversation around that because she notes to the fact that many black people within the Republican Party

were warning the Republican Party that this move that they were making on civil rights right, the Dixiecrats and then the Republicans and then the Southern Strategy and all these things um were going to be detrimental for the future of the party in terms of its ability to appeal to black voters. They were in meetings. They were having conversations. They were saying, do not do this because it will have long-lasting effects. Like the reach of this will be very significant.

Um, and they were right in many ways, right, that the Republican Party, because of that decision, because of moving more towards the um concerns of white segregationist and white elite. Um, out of the South, who were not wanting a change in the normalcy of what they understood the racial dynamics to be. Um, that resulted in black people really shifting away from the Republican Party and not looking back really at this point to say that there is anything that that party is appealing to them.

that is deterring them away from the Democrats in favor of You have this uh great chart in the introduction that that sort of shows this, that after, you know, in nineteen fifty eight there were you know, uh there was still a nearly fifty fifty split among identification with with parties and then

Uh I mean I you know, as you point out, obviously a lot of that would had to do with voter voter suppression. But then, you know, in the sixties there's just this major shift towards almost ninety percent identification um with the Democratic Party and that being steady. So I

I I think uh, you know, the in in the other um interviews, you know, you y you you do uh get into some of the history. But I I'm really curious to to almost in a way jump ahead and talk about like the way in which you look at today and how voters, at least in twenty twenty and twenty nineteen, when you know, in a little earlier when you were doing uh this analysis, you know, what you sort of saw about, you know, if you could almost paint a picture of like um, you know, kind of

Not the average black voter, but different maybe archetypes of black voters, what they might believe, why they support the Democratic Party. um, you know, how they might differ from, you know, let's say a a white Democratic voter or other uh other identity groups that identify the Democrats or Republicans.

Yeah. I mean so one is um so your average black voter, although we spend a lot of time um talking about people like across the United States, right? A lot of black people are still very heavily concentrated in the black belt, right? Like in the southern United States. Um so

Uh, your average black po voter probably is like a southern black person, right? Descendant of of American slavery. Um, in terms of where they fall, we have some economic measures as well within that chapter and note to the fact that Um, there is your top twenty percent of black people, right? So those who would probably fall into the black upper class, the more affluent class of people.

Um, and then the largest of black people, the eighty percent, are not that far apart from each other in terms of um where their like median household income is. Black median household income. statistic trends every year has always been below that of white individuals, um, as well as wealth. Um, so other economic indicators that might be used to say why people might make support for particular parties over other parties.

Um, and they still live in predominantly black communities, right? Uh and so your average black voter is probably somebody who lives in a predominantly black community. Um, their touch points with other black people are fairly regular. Um, and we note that in another chapter in the book. Um, your average black voter is probably a woman, right?

Um, and that also comes with a socialization that we don't talk about in the book. And I would say that that's probably one of the areas that, you know, an extension of that would be to look at the gender dynamics of what's going on. Um, I'm doing a little bit of work on that um because I think that there's a socialization about one's role in the community when you are a black woman that relates to how you think about your politics.

um and comes from a black ideology that is like a black feminist ideology, but the feminist ideology is one that's kind of more of a humanistic, you know, We clearly wanna improve the status of black women, but we recognize that in order to do that, we are at the bottom and so really we need to be thinking about people in the margins in order to live.

um uh ourselves and others out of these circumstances. Um, so it's probably a black woman. Um, I would say the person is probably older, right? So they are um middle aged. to, you know, even potentially could be a senior a senior citizen, but more than likely in the middle aged a senior citizen bracket. Younger voters even in the black community tend to not vote as much. Um, and so for many people, a lot of their understanding of their political behavior is also a recognition of the history.

What has transpired to this Um there are people alive who had relatives who were in sl. Right. Um and not in a distance way, like more like oh no, I remember my great great grandmother. Talking about something, something related to this, right? Like their removal from or I can my grandmother would live through Jim Crow.

Right. Like these pe or I live through Jim Crow. Right. Like their their distance from these significant historical time periods that we talk about as way in the past is very recent. Um, their touch points with the community is very commonplace. Um, and I think that they are recognizing a system design.

Uh a two-party system design, right? Winner take all. We call this Duverger's Law in political science. Um so winner take all system will almost always produce single member dist single member districts, will always produce two parties. Um and that with that circumstance, I am not necessarily always picking my optimum. I am picking with the constraints of what I've been given.

Right. And the thing that I am evaluating is based off of what I am seeing, which one of these two parties seem to be embodying my interest. Um and there could be rationales that could take me in either direction. But for a lot of black people, because of their social connectedness with others, um, and your average black voter,

fall with the expectation that the Democratic Party would be more likely to be the most representative. And even if you can rationalize that maybe it's not, right? Maybe you have ideological beliefs. That take you in that direction. Because if I'm talking about black women as one of the average voters, those women are likely to be involved in religious institutions. They're likely to be actually conservative.

um on different types of dimensions. However their contact points with the black community help to reinforce an understanding about the expected black political behavior, even if I'm somebody who would might consider defective. Right. And I think that that's a process that other communities can relate to, but is very solidified within the black community.

Yeah, this is one of the um what one of the aspects that is really fascinating is that even um black conservatives and I don't know if this this could have maybe started to change in twenty twenty four or so, but based on uh what's in the book.

um that that a significant amount of black conservatives still identify with the Democratic Party. So w w what how do they amat uh how how do how does the you know the the typical black conservative uh think about their relation to the Democratic Party, whether or not they feel that the Democratic Party um embodies their values versus like uh a party that they might be more aligned with on social issues, but obviously not on uh on certain social issues, I should say. Uh but maybe not on others.

One of the things that I think um in thinking about black conservatives in our understandings around at least what we were gleaming in the literature. And one of the things I really love about what Ishmael and I did when we fought about black conservatives.

is um we looked at conservatism in various forms, right? So the traditional measure of conservatism in the p in political science is the liberal, conservative, ideological seven point scale, which we looked at. Um but we also thought about moral tradition

Um, we thought about free market conservatism. We ran and looked at how basically people are um making those assessments and their con the constraints on their behavior with regards to that inconsistently, even if you were leaning conservative, you still felt constrained by the social expectation. um of the community. Um and so I think black conservatives are People who are

recognizing that uh, hey, we have opinions that differ from other people in the group, right? In fact that there is actually a lot more black conservatives and I think uh people want to acknowledge. And we show that kind of in the earlier part of the book. Um, but at the same time, when it comes to political behavior where we're considering the partisan um

outcomes. We're talking something about political outcomes and power of the collective, power of the black community within this space. We are recognizing that Um, black conservatives uh are applying that calculus in a different way. Right. Um, especially even in a polarized political environment. They're like, although I hold these beliefs.

the recognition of the collective can outweigh a lot of that. And even if it doesn't, even if I'm somebody who sees this as the best approach and I think that even the public party might be the best approach if I'm somebody that is very much going to be needing the social ties that I have within the black community. I can't really go against that expectation by the collective because the the consequences of doing so have significant reasons.

Right. And I think that that's an interesting thing because it really shows how for a group that is dealing with resource deprivation for an extended period of time and and is dealing with economics, like we don't necessarily have big money, financial people to try to like sway people into like there's nothing like that. The biggest thing that is really powerful for the black community, and I think that for a lot of communities it could operate similarly.

is the social connection with one and the other. Right. Um, and so that and your loss of those social ties. You can't really put a price on that for some people, right? That is, am I going to be at functions? Am I going to be invited in certain places? Am I putting job opportunities? I have to live in my community. Um, and even though somebody may not be in the voting booth with me Uh it's too much.

of even a cognitive risk to do something that deviates so drastically from the group. Um, and I know then what I would suffer if it even came to light, which is typically being called out. um socially socially sanctioned and those risks outweigh anything that would have maybe been my individualized motivations if I am worried about those socially.

Um, so it's interesting because like right now we're watching like Mayor Eric Adams in New York has made some statements. And already he was not that favorable with a lot of people within the African American community in New York, but He is a black man.

who's in the mayoralship. Um and there's been a lot of research and political science on black mayors and particularly even the importance of black mayors in New York. Um at various points like David Dinkins um before that. Uh and To see Eric Adams operate the way he operates, he is willing to put at risk many of his social task. Now he may have a confidant of black people who will stand by him no matter what because maybe they are aligned in his thinking.

And maybe that's how he's curating this, right? Like if he has created an environment where his Forward success or forward opportunities are not going to be impacted by what the black population thinks of him in largesse within New York.

then he can put at risk their opinion because he's like, Well, I have people that will help me out in other ways, right? He might even have like more diverse social networks, like not only black people, but like white people, right? So it's not surprising that he seems to be having some allegiance with Trump. Right. Um, but that also means that he's being dragged through the mud. Like the black community in the black social media spaces that I'm in.

They are dragging that man. Um, I think up to recently he referred to people as Negroes um instead of black people, uh and a newscaster. dragged him in a live interview, right? I'm like, Yeah,'cause that's how that go. Um Because the history for black people has been such a time of um in politics has been one where the group's interest has been put up for potentially being undermined on so many different occasions. That

One, there's already trust in government issues that black people have in terms of believing in the institutions responding to what they need. Black representation has been one way to try to alleviate some of this. But on top of that, um There have been people who have sold out the community. Um, and the culture is you don't do that.

You don't do it. Um, and if you do, then you're gonna have an objective journalist being like, Well, we're now having the conversation on live television and you're gonna have to deal with that. Yeah, Eric Adams. I I live in New York, so um I've been following uh the Eric Adams um crash out pretty uh Crashot is a good term.

I mean it what what's interesting too uh about Eric Adams is is he was he was formerly a registered Republican back in the back in the day too. Um so he's a kind of uh and he definitely uh, you know, that the a lot of the people that he was winning over uh when he initially won were conserv were were white conservatives in New York who saw him as uh

as someone that would be more favorable to their interests than, you know, even some of the the white progressives that were running against him. Uh there was quite a few there was quite a big um uh field. Uh but It was um it was interesting to uh to to see the way in which he was able to get power and I and I think uh you know, his turn towards Trump is very interesting because

Trump's uh i if if I get this correct, uh uh um please correct me if I don't. Um he won eight percent of the black vote in twenty sixteen. He slightly raised that percentage it in twenty twenty two, I think thirteen percent, and then he won Almost twenty percent or a little over twenty percent of the black vote in twenty twenty four?

This is the claim. Now I have not seen the full voter file. I have only seen like the um AP vote cast data, which is a substantial data set, but I haven't seen like the full numbers. Only that takes a while and they might be getting released now, suspend.

'Cause I wanna see if the bump is actually as large as people are claiming. There was a lower turnout um in terms of just everybody. Uh and so I'm intrigued to see if those numbers hold when we have the full data sets and the analysis is conducted because I'm he may have made NRA.

He may have made En-ROADS. Um, and if he did, the population it would definitely be um it's African American men would be the most likely um over black women, even though I think they would be black women too that would go that direction. And it could be in a moment where um

Th the way that people are thinking, I don't know if it's actually a shift to the Republican Party. So our story is about partisanship. Is it a shift to the Republican Party or is it a shift to trend? And I think there's a disentangling of that. Although he has reshaped the Republican Party, like regardless of if this man is

in any more future positions as we go forward or terms. I don't know what he's about to do. But if any of this transpires, the party itself has been reshaped into the Republican Party of Trumpism for the foreseeable future. Um, but in his absence, I don't know if the appeal of that is going to operate in the same way for black people, if they were even people who were drawn.

Um, because I think they might have been drawn to Trump. Like I think that is a Trump effect. Um, they put somebody else in there, a JD Vance, anybody else embodying it. I don't know if it does the same. Um, because I think Trump has a history. with the black community, um, and even that could be observed by the black community that is very, very, very unique. I don't necessarily think he's necessarily showing cultural commitment to black people per se. But I think um

He's had there's been bad moments like things around the Central Park Five. Um, there have been other moments when, you know, he was heavily discussed within the rap and hip hop music genre. Um, lots of lyrics around Trump and his success. I think his um style of presentation of his money is very much like running in the same vein of where I feel like there was a period in hip hop of like bling and

boisterous and kind of a lot of about what you have to show. Um, so you know, his house being all like this gold stuff seems like on brand, right? Like that doesn't like these two worlds make sense as well as a a an entrepreneurial conversation that also happens a lot in hip hop like this. um, rags to riches type of narrative for a lot of artists or people who had to grind, you know, the rise and grind or the hustler culture.

Not that far actually from the corporate world, even though people kind of separate that. So I could see how those things can come together. Um, and if you think that You are not making enroads with this and you're not concerned about the social outcomes of that.

um then you may find the appeal to to move towards Trump, right? But I don't know if it's the party. I think it's just Yeah, it's it it's, you know, these these are questions that I that I think are really important.'Cause one thing I was thinking about, you know, when in the comparison between you know, p some of the studies that you did looking at um uh black voter preferences for Obama versus Romney is how much of that is Obama versus Romney? Um and just and versus, you know, like you said.

Is it just Trump? Would could JD Vance slot in uh l like that? Like probably not. It is what what is interesting I I I find is the way in which Trump went from from you know almost

seemingly doubled or or even possibly tripled his his voter share of black voters. And and I think the story too around uh around gender divergence is really interesting because that seems to be um you know not only this seems to be a a across uh you know, all identity groups that there is a a divergence um in in voting patterns between uh you know men and women.

It I I'm wondering if you talk a little bit about just um you know, we we we can move away a little bit from our, you know, ta discussion about cr contemporary issues, but just talk a little bit about you know, the political science work that actually went into doing this this study and what you found about uh what what you found about voter preferences that helped you uh kind of come to this conclusion that the

one of the main factors that leads to uh African Americans to vote for the Democratic Party is this social pressure.

So um we did it through actually a variety of ways, which again I think is really interesting. Um in fact this book the precursor to this book was an article in the American political science review called Selling Out. Um, and it was about, you know, basically how self-interest and group interests are navigated by black people. Um, and um, so one way we approached this actually was thinking about the historical narrative, right? So like we really spent a lot of time looking at

time point after time point and time point where we could say, right, these are exemplars of social pressure operating. Because we had an idea, like kind of me and Ishmael having a conversation um around this. And it was like, Well, you know, we do what we do, right? Like black people black people do what we do. Um, and we do so in this way that I think is hard to explain because the literature that dominates political science talks about everything kind of through an individual calculus.

Right. Even if it's political behavior. I mean, there's some work that's now doing more social network, but for these types of decisions, a lot of it is thought about as this individualistic calculus. um and not about the network of people that may be influencing the decision. Um and so we recognize that you have to account to the unique experience that black people have had within the United States context.

And one of the massive ways in which that this has been different from other people is the role of something like racial segregation. What has racial segregation done? Well, it's concentrated black people in ways in communities where the need for a collective behavior is strong because now we're all dealing with the problems and challenges that are coming at us as a group. Um, and

uh we also need to recognize uh the connections that we have with one another. Um and you're relying on those connections. And so we were thinking, well, well, even though that's happening, right, but we're moving further and further away. from like the fifties and sixties civil rights movement and yet we see the maintenance

of the partisanship, what is going on. And that's where we get to the idea. Well, it has to be this social dynamic, right? Because it's not the the fight of the movement. It's not the the big legislation that came out at that time that's still like the most significant legislation we've had on civil rights.

Right. It is now after that has occurred a clear understanding by the collective that this is how we are going to be expected to do these behaviors and an enforcement of that through a social process. And racial segregation helps to buttress that, right? Because that means, yeah, you're not only dealing with everyday interactions, but that's also black, indigenous like institutions, like the church and other places and spaces.

that can reinforce this. So in the book, when we go at this, um, one chapter we have is just on the history of this, right? Thinking about um in the period of enslavement, what we see in the period of Reconstruction, what we see in the period of civil rights. um is this type of social dynamic even in the absence of the franchise, right? Like we tell a story about like Frederick Douglass.

um telling a story about an enslaved person who, you know, they found out that that guy was gonna snitch and the black people like gathered him gathered him up real quick. Um and they had a a whole session where they were basically like

if you're snitching to the master about our plans to try to escape, um, you gotta go. And that guy like ran off, right? Like he just he had to he had to hit hit the you know, because like they were like we will like like it's gonna be done for you. Um you're putting us at risk.

So even in the absence of the franchise, that group thinking, collective mindset is a very important factor. Um, and so then thereafter that we're like, okay, well, how do we show this? How do we show this? So one way we came up with doing this was Okay, well we can ask people about their social networks and look at how much do they care about what their family members or friends think about them. And we can code their racial identity of those people and say, like, okay, this is You know.

how um a person with a black friend group will behave. If they have one that's moving from not as many black friends to all white friends, how do we see them behave? And that's where we see some of that defection.

Um, in the twenty fourteen piece, we literally did a study where we incentivized people to defect from the group norm, right? Um, and so I think that's the ones that people love the most um because we created a scenario where we said, Hey, we're working with um basically like a uh own organization that's trying to get people to participate more um and do campaign donations um or do like pack donations for different candidates and this was in the twenty twelve election.

Um, and we want you to make this decision, but then we would explain to people that there would be consequences potentially for who would know the decision that you make. Um, so in one case we'd ask people, no one's gonna know, tell us what the decision is. Um in another case we'd be like, okay, no one's you're you're gonna do this, um, but we have to like publish it.

in the student newspaper and the newspaper was from a historically black college and that's where we were doing our sample. So it's like, well now people are going to know what you did. Right. Um, and then we also include like a monetary incentive then in another one where you said, okay, now we're gonna do it, we're gonna give you an incentive, we're gonna give you money um that you can keep as part of this.

And also potentially and then also tell people like what you did. Um, and how do people behave? And what we saw is that the social constraint was really big, right? Um, when you were making the decision, there was no incentive, right? We saw black people typically um behave in ways that are like with the normal expectations. When we saw people get the incentive,

that's when you saw people who did some defection. But when people found out That other people were gonna know what they did, the dollar amount donated shifted right back to the dollar amounts that were in the control. Right. Because now people are aware that people out there in the world are gonna know what I did and I can't do anything that's gonna make me look bad because the incentive was tied to supporting Mitt Romney versus Barack Obama.

Right. So we were creating a Republican incentive, like give the money here and you'll pocket something. But the pocketing of it means that people are gonna know that you gave your money to. And so what you had to is a lot of people making decisions to give like the suboptimal. They're like, I don't wanna give all the$10 to Mitt Romney, but I'll give five.

'Cause I want to keep five, right? And the incentive was enough because we were using college students where I mean that was a that was a meaningful amount of money, right? Um, in twenty twelve when we did that. Um, and similarly we did another one where we had Confederate and Confederates are basically people who are in on the study, um, go in the room with people as they were making the decision because we wanted to see is it a racialized social pressure or is it just like social pressure?

Um, and that was something that was held constant at the HBCU. Um, but in this case, we sent people into the room to make the decision. And the person who was part of the study that was our Confederate, the person who's gonna go in and do what we asked them to do to make the behavior observed. Um we said, okay, what you're gonna do Is you're gonna go in and you're gonna give all of your money to Obama. And you're gonna say it out loud. You're gonna say, I'm gonna give all my money to Obama.

And then you're gonna stick the money into the box. Now they have the$10 in their hand and they can choose what they want to do with it. And they're not gonna we're not gonna see how much of you guys are making the decision when there is a person in there telling you this, when there's not a person in there telling you this, and when the person that's telling you this is white, right? Because everybody in the study who's a participant is black.

So we have it with a racial match if the person is black. if the person is white or if you're by yourself and you're making this decision, right? And the social pressure was the most effective at curving behavior um and reducing the amount that you would pocket for yourself and actually donate to Obama. when the person that was in the room with you was black, relative to when you were in there by yourself and even when you were in there with a white person who was making the statement.

Um, and we had them gendered match too. So there was no gender influence of that if you in the room making a decision. Um, but it was interesting, right? Because what we were able to really pin down is that there is something about black social pressure. that impacts the decision-making calculus of black people, even if they are being handed opportunities that would be a self-interest benefit.

Right. Like that they would gain. They recognize the expectation of the group and they will act in accordance with it in a lot of As long as they are also somebody who has high levels of um social ties or belief in social ties. And also um they value if you are somebody who values money over social ties, those were the people who are most likely defectors.

Yeah, that's interesting and and I I I really do wonder what would happen if the the study was conducted today. I don't know if you have plans. You know, if you could talk a little bit about your current work, what you're what you're doing, how you're uh thinking about this project, if you're like, I'm done with this project or you're like, I wanna keep going.

So I'm working with one scholar, um Julian Womble at George Washington University and he's doing some stuff out um and we're doing some stuff about gender and looking at the socialization of black women and also thinking about black men and their behavior.

um and how do we see norm defection operating and to what degree is that informed by how they're socialized to understand their roles in the group. So that's one space where I'm doing it. Ishmael has contacted me more once or twice where he's like we should run it today. Um, because one thing um that I think is interesting or at least that I would hypothesize potentially is an impact, right? Um, is that

the media landscape is very different. Um and uh It is possible that you have a collection of people who make up your social network. who are people who align with for instance like supporting Trump. And um we didn't necessarily see like a massive shift of black people's behavior or anything in twenty twenty four from previous years, but

there is a thinking that could be going on there that okay, so these social networks what happens if my social network is kind of comprised of other black people who also believe what I'm believing in that I feel like it's okay that we defect from Trump, right? And I think the social media space that we are in right now allows for those collectives to grow and exist and be where you can find your pocket of people.

And so then the likelihood that you feel like you have violated a sanction uh violated uh an expected behavior is probably diminished significantly because the people around you are reinforcing the viewpoint that you've decided to take on, which is I'm gonna vote in this way or I'm gonna support who I'm gonna support.

So that's one aspect of it. Um also, you know, I think there's something about social ties and how social ties have been evolving because we are in this digital landscape. Um, how close are people to each other anymore?

Right. Um, so I know that I know some like middle aged and older black people who talk about, you know, walking around for instance, like on a college campus. Like I'm at Maryland and it's a P W I. And it used to be fairly normal that if you just pass like another black person, there would be like an acknowledgement of each other in some way, like a head nod, right?

And that was normal. Like if you're in a space and it's predominantly white and you see another black person, like it's not crazy that you all would acknowledge each other. And you might even be with white people. And when this has happened with me, white people look at me like, Do you know them? And I'm like, I don't, no.

Like it's just kind of like an understood thing, right? Um again, not limited to black people, but something that black people Uh, and I have heard um people in my age group and above um talking about um they seeing a decline in Right. So some of these social connections. are not as strong as they used to be in the like in IRL, like in real life. Um and so if they are weakened, do they have the same effectiveness?

in um norm enforcement or in enorm pressures on people, um, if one's social ties are not as locked in as they have been in the past. Um And so, you know, uh do as one of our scholars, Michael Dawson, has talked about the decline of black institutions. Um, I do think though, as I say that, um, it is interesting because the social media landscape that we did not really ask people about in these surveys, um, would be, you know, the emergence of like things like TikTok as such a powerful

Space for socializing and social engagement. Um, I had a section that I like, I just specifically remember I wrote that section because Ishmael was like, I don't know enough about Twitter to write this. But like To r to help you write this part of it. Um, or us work together to write it. Uh so I wrote this section in the book on Twitter and Black Twitter's influence because um at that moment, um, to be what we would have called dragged on black Twitter um was seen as like the group.

Doing what they can to socially sanction you for behavior that is not in line with what is expected of our partisan. behavior, right? Um and uh I used examples I think of Stephen Har Steve Harvey, Chrissette Michelle, um, and I got calls about talking about Kanye West. So, um, and you know, I would say that Kanye West is still dealing with the ramifications of some of his political choices.

Yeah, he I think he's uh dug himself a really uh into it an extremely deep, deep hole uh with a lot of people. Um I th there was you know, speaking of of Twitter,'cause obvious I something that I I remember I remember Chance the Rapper in twenty twenty making a post on Twitter and he he did get uh a lot of flack from for it, but making a post essentially asking the question like, Why do I have to vote Democrat? and feeling feeling like um Uh

that the r that that the expectation that if you're black that you have to vote Democrat dem in the Democratic Party ends up weakening black voter power because the expectation is, well, you're just gonna vote for the Democratic Party. So Therefore, the d I mean, I think this is the point that you were sort of making about what some black Republicans in the sixties were were worrying about is if we if we all go to one party, then our power to influence both parties declines.

Um, but the thing is, right, we have to think about the the the quantitative side of this, right? So black people comprise not only a minority in terms of racial like racial size compared to like p a status, I should say. In terms of where they situated, right? In terms of the status hierarchy of race within the United States, like we are not necessarily anywhere near the top. We're kind of at near the bottom. Um the way the power dynamics work. On top of that, we are empirically And minority.

Right. So if one wants to have collective influence in a system that is, like I said, the winner take all. Single member district system and one where majority wins, like basically the winner-take-all system. Like we want to have influence and power, dividing the group. doesn't necessarily add address the collective problems. Now one has to believe to some degree that things that are happening within the group, happening to the group have an impact on your life.

But that is not necessarily something black people have done to themselves, right? This is something that has been the consequence of the state actions that have resulted in particular outcomes for black people.

one of them being segregation. Cause people are like, Well, how do you stop this kind of thing from happening? Like how do you get black people to do what chance is talking about? And Ishmael and I are like, end racial segregation, right? Like that institution, that Structural design created a far like a fertile ground for this to emerge because. It is clear then that your outcomes, regardless of where you're situating yourself economically, where you're going, which

seem to all fall back on the fact that you're black. Um and so that thinking of the group interest um is one where it is socialized to you, understood to you, the spaces in which you engage. Talk to you. You know, Melissa Harris Perry wrote a book in the past called Um Bibles, Barbershops, and B D. And it was about everyday talk and the ways in which black ideology and politics gets discussed in the barbershop.

at the church. Guess to s like it you don't need to be in these formal like habermassi and bourgeoisie public spheres, right? Like you can be, you know, kicking it with your peoples. Um, you know, and that's where these conversations are happening. Um and so d as long as that stays true, um, it is very hard to just get people to start behaving in a different way. Um, because the decision to do this is not cheap, right? It's not people going over the cliff together

Like the three hundred or something with our awareness of it. It is a strategic behavior. It is a strategic behavior. So when I hear um, you know, people like Chance or even, you know, Candace Owens and Dividels talk about this, or you know, when when um Kanye was talking about being a free thinker. There is an assumption that black people are not aware of their condition, right? And I think that that feels very

patronizing, especially as those you guys are y'all y'all are in the group, but I also think that they are also being strategic, particularly Candace Solids. I think she's being strategic. I think she knows exactly what she's doing. I think she knows exactly what she's saying. And she is operating as um a black conservative qualifier black because that is what gives her monetary cash.

Like girl, you don't have to. You don't have to pitch yourself as that. You could say, like, I'm just a conservative, I don't want to talk about race, but you actively talk about race. Why? Because that is the brand. The brand is to discuss it in this way, to distance yourself from the group, because you value the money that you get from that over the social ties. So it

Surprise, surprise, it was not surprising to me when I saw Candace Owens bit pictures from her baby shower, which looked very lovely, but she was surrounded by white women. Like ninety, ninety five percent of the people in the picture were white women. Not shocking. Not shocking because you are maintaining a social network that aligns with not only the thinking that you are putting forward, but also reinforces also a monetary benefit that comes to you.

I think um Yeah, that that that's really interesting and I think it also aligns what you were sort of um saying before that that the more a person thinks about their own monetary or financial game as opposed to their identification with their group is the they'll be more likely then to to be a defector.

um in that sense. And, you know, there there has become a sort of an industry around this idea of uh defecting from your, you know, what's maybe expected politically of you from your identity group and then going in the other direction, whether you're a black person going becoming conservative or whether you're you are, you know, any identity gro and any expect expectation, you know, a woman who's a man, you know, male uh influencer or something, you know, a meninist, uh

Right. You're talking about like Pearl, right? Or like you know, I can think of you know, you brought up the Jewish community, right? And there's a lot of fraught'cause conversations happening right now with the Israeli Palestinian Situation that's been happening, right? And you know, I've heard of various sides of this, right? Like, you know, people who are Jewish. who are leaning towards potentially where Palestinians are and how their outlook on this is.

And finding themselves sanctioned, right? Because the community has been, there's clearly understand norms, there's clearly understand ways in which it's said the racial like it's a it's a race. So it's a clearly understand race and religion. Like there's a clearer understanding of how that goes, and there's consequences.

Right. And what they've had to give up because of that. We've heard it even discussed in the later part of the book when we talk about it. We talk about Southern whites. Um, and you can see that within, I mean, MAGA is MAGA operates like this, right? Like Trump is openly saying, I will punish you for defecting from me. Anybody who's saying that black people are behaving in a particular way that seems odd. I'm like, No, no, no. This this is this is not an unusual. We just we Yeah.

center black people as a case because of the partisan norm consistency and the time and the time frame in which it's operated and the constraints in which they're in. But they are not the only ones that fit the theoretical tenets that we lay out. Um, southern white politics has been of a very similar kind. And although Trump is, I think, of German descent and a New Yorker, he is operating in a cachet that is very much akin to that type of politic where defecting from the expected behavior

Consequence. Hazard. You know, what's something I wonder too, you know, when you'cause the the studies that you conducted, um, I don't know if they were purely just college students that you were um doing the tests with. Um, but I do I do wonder, you know, that with young people's behavior, like I I've at least seen, you know, among a lot of people that I know. Uh, you know, I I knew some s knew quite a few people that decided not to vote um because they just felt unsatisfied with

both parties. Um, you know, I think uh, you know, my view is that it's kind as you you maybe pointed out, uh that that in in a uh in a in a winner take all system, uh, you kinda don't really have a choice.

Um, but at the same time too, um, you know, it is interesting and I wonder how much of of that is just uh people trying to revolt against the uh, you know, the way that things kind of uh break out into a two party system. And if and if there was a third bucket Here's a hundred dollars that you don't don't have to give to anyone, but you can give to uh, you know, some other cause what what that might look like too.

That might look like something too. And I I think there are people who d are disillusioned, right? That are apathetic, who I think young people are in particular. Like I talked to my students about this, right? Like their their political socialization has been a very strange one because my students now they're eighteen to twenty one and they were children, like very little children when Obama was in like his second term. Right. So like when I'm teaching Obama, that is history.

Um, I am playing them moments from that and they're like, people really doing that? Like it's like sure literal shock, right?'Cause they just don't. Available to them. So they have seen two now in the second Trump term, they have seen a very polarized political environment which

I came of age in the eighties and the nineties and although the two party system was still there, um the you know, I lived through the Clinton triangulation era, right, with Newt Gingrich as the speaker. Right. Like I can remember, you know, There were like fairly liberal Republicans. There were conservative Democrats. Like those things were real things.

in an open way without feeling like you were going to suffer consequences. Like I remember when they talked about various Republicans walking away who were seen as these people like an Olympia snow and a Mitt Rom. And I like these were the more and they were totally normal. Like it wasn't crazy that they were there. It was Going to the center m g helped you advance your career. Where now going to the center seems like uh the way to hurt your political career.

It needs to hurt your political career because again, like that that ability to get um collective action to occur is being done in a way where you have to worry about people either free riding or people not complying with the expected behavior putting at risk. The coalition. Um, and in the case with, you know, MAGA and Trump and and what he's got going on there, I think he is very much like

Fall in line or find yourself on the outside, and we will let you know why you're there and we will punish you. Um, and that's a real risk. If so much of your party is there, right? Um so I do wonder about young people because I think if the third party option came along, maybe, maybe some would. I think there there could definitely be some, especially and I feel like that probably be aligned with disillusionment. Like are you apathetic?

about the system. Um, and if you are high in that, more than likely then you would be somebody who's like, oh yeah, I could totally do this. But I do think that the socialization within the black community is one in which if you at least have contact with older members of your family, your social networks have s you know, ties to those people, they are regularly reinforcing the importance of

voting and civic participation in a way, um, because there's so much history behind how he got it, right? The acquisition of the franchise um is still something that's talked about. Right. Like we didn't always have it. And now we have it. So to not use feels inconsistent with what people did before us, even if the meaningfulness of it to you, your political efficacy, right? Your internal efficacy feels not very much. It there was a fight for this. People died for this.

And and so it's important. But again, as those spaces where those kinds of conversations get a bit more fractured, you know, people may feel more like, yeah, no, I get that, but like, no, I'm good. Um, and think that a third party or an organizational support or that there are other alternatives to get there um or to see uh improvement that may not align necessarily with the partisan norm. Now I wonder again if we did the modeling of that.

what would you do though if the other black people know that's what you did? Right. Like you may be inclined to do that. But now I'm gonna tell you that other black people are gonna know what you did that you did that. Um Are you still as inclined? My guess would be if there was a norm of this behavior and you decided to deviate, uh, that people probably would curve their behavior again if the social ties to the group matter a lot to them.

Yeah, it it's really interesting. I I think that this that the model of the study is interesting'cause you could really recreate it with so many different groups. Like I wonder if you recreate it with white liberals. uh how what that would look like. Um, I w you know, if you recreated with Jewish voters, if you recreated it with with Muslim voters. Like I think that there's so many ways that you could do this and find some really interesting things about social dynamics. Um, but

Yeah, I know I I've taken up a lot of your time, but this was such a fascinating conversation. I really uh really enjoyed speaking and um Yeah, listeners should really go go buy the book, Steadfast Democrats, How Social Forces Shape Black Political Behavior. It came out in twenty twenty, but there's really so much. in there. It's it's an extremely rich rich book and I think uh anyone who's interested in political behavior, how things are changing will find a lot, a lot of interest.

Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I think the book got a little bump in reemergence because Ezra Klein guests put us on like the sixty two books to read that tell you what happened in this election. And that was one of the ones that the guests listed. That's amazing.

So I'm like, Oh, that's neat. Look at us. Back again. Um, so yes, I encourage you guys to get the book. We have a lot of stuff in there and it is written in a way too that is supposed to be accessible for people who you don't have to understand all the stats. Yeah, no, it definitely is accessible. And the statistics are are are are laid out in a way that is really

easy to under it it's really easy to understand. It's not like, you know, these charts that are so confusing. You're like, what are you know, it's showing uh I I I don't I don't I I I don't even know the know the know all the the bilingual, but yeah, but but we're

Yeah. All the different values of oh well it's actually uh here but i i the it's uh everything's really uh laid out clear and it's very, very interesting, I think, to anyone who's who finds this uh finds this sort of topic uh voter behavior fascinating. So Cheryl, thank you so much for being a guest on the New Books Network. Thank you for having me.