114: Monopoly (Not The Game)

John:Okay, game faces on, so to speak. Voices, game voices? That's not even a thing. Oh well. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Pragmatic is a show about technology and contemplating the finer details in their practical application. John:By exploring the real world trade-offs, we dive into how great ideas can be transformed into products and services that impact our lives. John:Pragmatic is entirely supported by you, our listeners.

John:If you'd like to support us and keep the show ad-free, you can by becoming a Premium Supporter. John:Premium Support is available via Patreon and through the Apple Podcasts channel subscription. John:Premium Supporters have access to early release, high quality versions of episodes, as well as bonus material from all of our shows not available anywhere else. Vic:I am doing fantastic, how are you?

John:Just visit engineer.network/pragmatic to learn how you can help this show to continue to be made. John:Thank you. John:I'm your host, John Chidjie, and today I'm joined once again by my good friend, Vic Hudson. John:How you doing, Vic? John:I am also doing fantastic, in relative terms at least, because I'm enjoying marginally cooled air coming into my sound booth, which is great.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's certainly better than hot air coming in, or no air coming in, which is what I've been doing up until a few weeks ago. Vic:Yeah, I remember you were pretty toasty the last time we recorded. John:But anyway, yeah, hmm. John:Yeah, I was. Yeah, sweat was dripping off. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It was not a pleasant experience.

John:I mean, recording with you was a pleasant experience, but just sweating in order to get to a site that you get cover of all the topics was enough to nearly not quite kill me, Vic:[LAUGH] John:but certainly make me question my decisions in life. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But anyhow, so one of the things that I've been working towards slowly has I've been stuck in this situation where I spent a lot of money building the sound booth.

John:Again, all patrons supported effectively, and the sound booth has been built now for six months. John:But the problem was I built it and I got it done just before summer, and that was fine in the wintertime. John:But then as we started coming into summer, it was getting too hot, and I'd sort of run out of money, John:and I needed a chance to sort of financially recover a little bit from the podcast point of view.

John:And then by the time I had enough money to buy the spare parts, the other parts I needed to build the baffle boxes and the cooling system, it was then essentially the middle of summer. John:So in January, February this year, which is, of course, summer in the Southern Hemisphere, it was way, way, way too hot to get out the circular saw, jigsaw, hacksaw, every saw. Vic:All the sauce. John:And actually build this thing properly.

John:So all the saws and all the little teeth and saws cutting through wood and all that sort of stuff. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And honestly, it just reached that point where I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to take this portable air conditioner on wheels. John:And I built, I bought this, it's like a plastic, it's like cardboard, but made out of plastic.

John:And it's got like two layers on the outside and a little ribbed layer on the inside, and they're all pressure treated and glued together. John:And this particular board, they often use it for like advertising signs and so on. John:So I bought, I think it's called Core Flute Board, or at least it is here. John:I don't know if there's a different name for it in other parts of the world. John:But in any case, that's the stuff.

John:And I built a cowling or cover, I guess, that fits over the top of the air conditioner, the portable air conditioner. John:So that's one of those things on four, we've got four little wheels and you wheel it from room to room. John:In this case, it's not going far. John:Anyway, so I've got this HVAC, 150 millimeter or six inch diameter HVAC tube that's been essentially taped to, you know, a very carefully crafted exit hole.

John:So that when you put the cowling over the top, it feeds nice cool air down this tube and into the sound booth, John:making recording a heck of a lot more pleasant than it was before. John:So that's great. John:Recently then cut a rectangular hole in the bottom for one of the air vents that I've, that I purchased for this. John:It is now unceremoniously jammed in that hole.

John:But hey, at least cool air is getting in here and I'm not, I don't know, I have sweat pouring off of me, John:but because it's leaking like a sieve, it's probably only getting about 50, 60% of the air in here and there's no outlet. John:So obviously if there's no outlet, it's going to bleed out through all of the little, and I say little gaps, they're huge gaps in the bottom. John:But in any case, you won't be able to hear it.

John:I've done a whole bunch of noise reduction in post-production, but I can hear it as I'm recording, John:but the noise reduction as we're talking through audio on Discord, you can't, you can't hear it. John:And when I do audio noise reduction, it completely removes it. John:You can't hear it either in the final result. John:Otherwise I wouldn't be recording with it on.

John:Absolutely. Yeah, I'm still using Brussfree, or Brussfree, I don't know how to pronounce it, John:but it's, it does a fantastic job and it just takes out normal background noise from the resistance in the dynamic microphones. John:It's really, really nice. John:So, and I've tested on this and it is, it is, you cannot, you really cannot tell the difference. John:So hopefully now that the weather's cooling down finally, I mean, it's still a bit, you know, it's still warm-ish.

John:Like we had a warm-ish day today, but it was like, you know, high 20 Celsius, which is, John:I'm not going to convert off the top of my head, but it's not, it's not super hot. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's, it's getting more pleasant. John:Nighttime temperatures are dropping, which is nice. John:So yeah, it's getting better. John:So I'm getting back to the temperature where I can start building it. Vic:>> Would you consider it fall there yet or is it just kind of late summer?

John:Oh yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely autumn. Vic:Okay, so you're in the fall, okay. John:Yeah, I'm definitely in the fall. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:We don't, we don't, obviously we don't call it the fall, but I like the idea of calling it the fall because all the leaves fall off the trees. John:And I like that. John:But most of the trees we have here are not siduous. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They, they don't have that.

John:Like you look around, the trees, there's not a single tree in my yard that loses its leaves year round. John:So yeah, pretty much. Vic:>> So you're surrounded by evergreens. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But then most of Australia is evergreen. John:We're the only, the only plants in Australia, the trees that lose their leaves. John:I'm not, okay, I'm not a botanist, so maybe there's a few that lose their leaves, but I think they're all imported from overseas.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So yeah, we don't get that cold, I don't think. Vic:Fair enough. John:There's probably some, there's probably some in the alpine regions down around, alpine regions, you know, like snowy mountains. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Maybe there's some trees there that lose their leaves, but that's the only reason you would lose them. John:It doesn't get cold enough here. John:So anyway, but yeah, so autumn, fall, whatever you want to call it. Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Heck yeah, we're in it and summer is over. John:It can go and get bent because it was not fun. John:It was horrible. John:Is eagerly the right word? Vic:Yeah, we're still kind of eagerly awaiting it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Do we like summer? John:What's the consensus? John:I don't, I don't. Vic:Well, here in Kentucky, so. John:Well, what, well, what's summer like in Kentucky having never been? Vic:[LAUGH] John:Never been.

Vic:As with much of the United States at this time of year, but it's really bad. John:Hmm. Vic:Like in the central part of the country, especially like Kentucky and Tennessee. Vic:We like to describe springtime in Kentucky as you get four seasons in one day. Vic:So it's kind of like wintertime at night and you get spring in the morning, John:Okay, well, there you go. Vic:a little bit of summer in the afternoon, and then you're back to fall by evening.

Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:Because like, just to give you an example, John:Hmm. John:Yeah, no, it doesn't sound that bad. Vic:I think today's actually going to be a relatively cool day. Vic:Well, no, here you go. Vic:We have a low of 43 and a high of 67, that's in Fahrenheit, mind you. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I, I mean, if you're, you know, if you're high 70s going into 80s, that'd be annoying. Vic:No, but.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But I mean, the thing is, it's funny, you know, Melbourne, they often say Melbourne is the, is the city in Australia that has four seasons in one day. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Brisbane doesn't. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's Brisbane these days is feeling a lot more like the tropics. John:So I grew up in Rockhampton and Rockhampton's right on the Tropic of Capricorn. John:I say right on it.

John:It's, you know, it's six or seven kilometers away from the actual marine, the actual 23 degree, half degree south, whatever it is. Vic:Yeah. John:Yeah, there's a big spire and he says, hey, you're right in the tropic. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And then, then you realize, oh, it's actually still out by several meters, but nevermind. John:Anyway, it doesn't matter. John:The point is that it's in summertime, it's really hot and humid and in a monsoonal sort of a summer that we've had. Vic:Mm-hm.

John:And it was just hot and humid all the time and you get rain and it would just be hot and humid. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It would rain hot and humid. John:It would rain and just go wash, rinse, repeat. John:Everything was wet. John:Everything was hot and humid all the damn time. John:If you go in the pool, your towels would never dry. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You'd hang them up and they just still be damp the next morning. John:And it's just like, it just got really tiring.

John:So, and having had some flooring done in the house and such, we were just over it and just over summer. Vic:Mm-hm. John:So anyway, but this is all, this is all a digression. John:All this is to simply say, my sound booth is actually relatively pleasant. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I wouldn't say it's really pleasant, but I just sort of like stopped for a second there and the air conditioner has now been running for about 40 minutes. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And honestly, it's starting to feel quite pleasant in here. John:Like it's not cold, cold, but it's not stinking hot. John:So it's working. Vic:That's cool. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah. John:Hell yeah, it is. John:Because I mean, after a while you build it and it's so damn hot, you can't use it. John:And you're like, did I make a mistake building this? Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:That's a question that'll keep you up at night.

Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:My son, my oldest son said to me, this thing's going to be stinking hot. John:You're never going to be able to use it. John:And I said, I'm going to air condition it. John:He said, yeah, well, you're not going to be able to use it until you air condition it. John:I'm like, yeah, well, we'll see about that. John:Like he's 18 and I was just so mad keen to get this thing built. John:And then I realized that it, unfortunately for me, my son was absolutely right.

John:I had always intended to air condition this thing. John:It just took a bit longer and it happened through summer. Vic:Yeah. John:So, but that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Do yourself a favor and never let him hear you say that. John:He may listen to this show and then that's it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, well, sometimes he actually has listened back to this show and he sort of said, yeah, you're funny. Vic:Yeah. John:And I'm like, am I?

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, cheers. John:Thanks, mate. John:Anyway. John:Okay. John:I'm not sure. Vic:[LAUGH] John:That's a compliment, mate. Vic:Any time my kids, any kind of time my kids listen to any of my podcasts, Vic:they always say, you're even more of a nerd than we realized. Vic:[LAUGH] John:That's okay. John:Well, you go, you take that as a compliment, take that in your stride. Vic:I don't think they mean it as such, but. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That's what I would do.

John:I'd be like, I'd be like, oh, hey, RG, thanks, man. John:That's nice. John:Thank you. Vic:There you go. John:All right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Switching gears slightly. John:I've got a few little things I want to catch up on and then we'll get stuck into the main topic. John:It's not that big a topic, but still, it's a topic. John:Anyway. Vic:Mm-hm. John:All right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, I had mentioned on previous episodes, I was going to get more solar panels installed.

John:I currently have 13.2 kilowatts of panels feeding a three-phase 10 kilowatt inverter. John:And I had applied for Energex to go to a full 15 kilowatts connected to the grid. Vic:Mm-hm. John:And Energex, who's the local power supply authority, after seven months of back and forth and back and forth, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:they have said, no, go away. John:And I'm like, okay, I guess I will. Vic:[LAUGH] John:So, I guess, oh, well.

John:One of the problems with connecting to a grid that has essentially got too much solar going into it, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:too many renewables, is that there's nowhere to consume it and there's nowhere to store it. John:So, they are simply now rejecting it. John:So, we in Queensland have reached that point. Vic:So you can actually overload the grid with that nice, clean, green energy. John:Well, people don't -- I don't know.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I mean, some people don't understand the way electricity grids work, right? John:I mean, assume that they're lossless just for a second. John:But you put power in, it doesn't just magically sit there. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It needs to be consumed. Vic:Right.

John:So, either you consume it in a load and have that load do work for your money, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:or you store it in a battery, or you store it in pumped hydro, John:or you store it in some way, either a chemical battery, mechanical battery, anything. John:And, yeah, because if you produce power, the power has to be consumed. John:That's it. John:You can't just pump it in there and then, you know, it'll stay there until you need it.

John:And, unfortunately, there's so many people with so much solar on their roofs now John:that the grid simply has nowhere to store it. John:So, they're introducing laws to enforce anyone that has more than 10 kilowatts of load to have a disconnect switch. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, they can send a master command out to your house to disconnect your solar from the grid John:if the grid becomes unstable because there's too much power being forced into it. Vic:Yeah.

John:So, yeah, some would say nice problem to have. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Others might say, "Well, that's what poor planning gets you," John:or actually there's a whole bunch of things you could probably say. Vic:Mm. John:But, irrespective, me being selfish for the moment, I got rejected by Energex. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, well, shrug a doodle doo. I guess I got to get over it and move on with my life. Vic:Mm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If I wasn't connected to the grid, I could do whatever the hell I wanted, John:but I'd also need to install batteries, and that's even more expensive. Vic:I was getting ready to say, you could put in one of those Powerwall thingies and, John:Yeah. John:That is true, but I did the math. Vic:and store all that good, clean, green energy for yourself.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:With one and a half electric cars, I would need two power walls John:in order to ensure I had enough to charge my cars as well as power the house. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If I had three days of bad weather in a row, I'd need two power walls. Vic:That's a whole lot of batteries. John:It is a hell of a lot of batteries, which is exactly why I haven't done it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It would cost me somewhere in the region of about $30,000 to $35,000 to do that.

John:I don't have that kind of money up my sleeve. Vic:That's Australian. John:That's Australian dollars, yes. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you want to talk in other forms of fake money, I don't know what that is in Bitcoin. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But never mind. Vic:[LAUGH] John:I have a love-hate relationship with Bitcoin. John:Let's just be really clear for those people who think that I love crypto.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I do in some ways, and other ways it melts my brain a bit John:because money isn't real and I just don't get it anymore. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But never mind. John:I'm not trying to be an economist. John:All right. Moving on. John:Well, I guess the problem is that for Bitcoin to be-- Vic:I just wish it wasn't so dependent upon server farms heating up the planet and Vic:consuming lots and lots of energy. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:That's my biggest knock against it.

John:See, my-- Vic:That, well, that and the Bitcoin bros, but. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I actually-- Yeah, I find Bitcoin, bros, to be more annoying than the technology. John:The technology is actually fine. John:It's just the way it's evangelized by some people John:and the way that they talk to other people that aren't on board with it John:is just quite embarrassing, and they don't realize how embarrassing they're being. John:But anyway. John:No, my issue with Bitcoin is not Bitcoin.

John:There's a lot of other-- Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Well, like they call them coins, but whatever, John:that are not Bitcoin, that are all-- John:that have board members and people buy, and they do initial coin offerings, John:and then they do a traditional pump and dump. John:They're very analogous to pyramid schemes, and it's all very dodgy. Vic:Mm-hm. John:And all of that is also crunched using-- Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Well, not all of it, but many of them are crunched using proof of work.

Vic:I've kinda gotten the impression over the last few years that I think most of John:[No audio] Vic:cryptocurrency is basically just a different stock market people are playing in John:Yeah, and a lot of it is. Vic:these days. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:The thing with Bitcoin that's different is that there is no one that controls John:or can control it.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Bitcoin, the only thing-- John:So Bitcoin is the only one I'm aware of that has a fixed limit, John:and it is proof of work, and the only downside of proof of work John:is that it does consume a lot of electricity or energy John:when you're competing to win to find the block. John:And honestly, you can choose whatever energy you want. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you're smart about it, you will mine off of free energy, John:like solar panels.

John:If I had solar panels that are feeding into a very small battery storage system Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:to drive a Bitcoin miner, that would be fine. John:It's like that doesn't hurt anybody or anything. Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now you can argue if that's a good waste of-- John:like a good solar panel and batteries and some ASICs doing some mining, John:you can have that philosophical discussion if you like, John:but that's not heating up anything, except on a micro scale, Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I guess you could argue. John:[No audio] Vic:And you're not emissioning anything. John:No, not really. No. No. Vic:That's not a word. Vic:Emissioning.

John:I mean-- Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:You're not generating emissions. John:No, but the problem is that people only see that piece of it Vic:[LAUGH] John:and they don't fully appreciate the other piece of it, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and the other piece of it is, well, I go to a bank John:and I hand over a $20 note and so on.

John:So it's like the act of my doing that, that transaction, John:it takes energy, printing that note, keeping that note in circulation, John:destroying it, the person at the bank, John:the person at the federal treasury, all of that all takes energy, John:and people are just--we just accept, look, that's just the way it is, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and they think, oh, well, there's no consequence.

John:It's like, yeah, but if you're transacting everything digitally John:and through a blockchain approach where there's a distributed ledger, Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you don't have any of that, and so you're saving all of that energy. John:You don't have to expend it anymore. John:And it's funny. John:I mean, I covered some of this previously on previous episodes of Pragmatic.

John:It's not as clear-cut as people think, John:and I find it extremely reductive and disrespectful to simply say John:any kind of cryptocurrency is--and even particularly Bitcoin, John:which gets caught up with all these other cryptocurrencies Vic:Mm. John:that are nothing like Bitcoin. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's like it's not a scam. It's not a pyramid scheme. John:It doesn't fit any of those criteria.

John:Whether or not you think Bitcoin is good or bad, John:you need to step back and consider all of the other implications John:of using a normal monetary system. John:And the other problems with the normal monetary system Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:is inflation and deflation and government intervention John:and people fighting wars and all sort of other rubbish that goes on with it, John:whereas Bitcoin, you can fight as many wars as you like. John:It's never going to change.

John:So it's like the value of a sat-- Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:Good times. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Here's the funny thing with currencies, right? John:Currencies are all meaningless. They don't mean anything. John:Like the value of a dollar doesn't mean anything. John:And because it's like you could argue, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:"Well, Bitcoin's price has been constant.

John:It's just all the fiat currencies around the world that keep changing," John:which is, of course, as much nonsense as the argument is the other way around. Vic:Mm. John:It's like the U.S. dollar is the only currency in the world Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and every other currency fluctuates relative to it. John:No, they all fluctuate relative to each other.

John:And when you see how all those values go up and down all the damn time John:for all these different reasons, none of it makes a hell of a lot of sense. John:It's all smoke and mirrors and puppeteering and BS in the background, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it's just very sad. John:You can't take any of it with you, so what's the damn point? Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Never mind. All right. I want to talk about something else.

John:So I have some follow-up on an Apple Watch episode, 110. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Okay. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now, every now and then my wife asks pointed questions, John:and I not all the time but regularly do feel the need to answer them. John:And one of the challenges she put to me is, John:"You know, darling, you spend a lot of money on Apple Watches." John:And I'm like, "Surely not. Surely that is not the case." Vic:Oh, boy. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:I mean, really. I looked down at this Apple Watch Ultra, John:and I'm like, "Hmm. No, okay." John:So I went and actually went through all of my receipts for the last nine years. John:I have spent 6.4--or $6,400 Australian dollars, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:which is $4,200 U.S. dollars on Apple Watches in the last nine years. Vic:Yeah. Vic:How many watches have you had again? John:Too many. I think I've had six.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:[LAUGH] John:And, yeah, and I just--I thought about it, and I'm like, Vic:Six, okay. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:"That doesn't even include the bands. That's just the watches." Vic:Oh, right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now, I never bought a watch without a band as part of it, John:because you can't buy an Apple Watch from a store without a band. John:So I say "without bands." John:I mean, like, "Without bands, I bought in addition to what came with the watch."

John:Now, I don't want to do the math on the bands Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because I imagine that number will be over $1,000 as well just for bands. John:But, I mean, the reason I bring this up, Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:rather than just to answer my wife's question, John:I thought it would be instructive of--and let's just also be clear. John:This is not a--this is a total amount spent, John:but what I would do is I would sell the watch to help then pay for the next one.

John:So, in reality, I haven't actually consumed an entire amount of money. John:But, yeah, you buy a watch, you wear it for two years, you sell it, it loses value. John:So, you know, it's--you know what I mean, right? Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, yeah, so I thought about it, and I'm like, Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:"You know what? For that kind of money, John:I could have actually bought a really nice watch.

Vic:Mm. John:Like, I could have bought a really nice watch that would have lasted like a long time." Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Because when you--yeah, I mean, seriously, Vic:Yeah, but. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I could have bought a nice Longines watch, let's say, you know, or maybe a-- Vic:Yeah, but that watch isn't going to give you notifications and reminders and John:Yeah, I know, but-- Vic:to-do items and phone calls and messages and. John:Oh, no. I know.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And here's the thing. John:In the last probably six to nine months of my life, John:I have been tuning out notifications because it started to become triggering. John:Like, it's starting to get to the point where I'm starting to resent notifications. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'm starting to resent being plugged in all the damn time.

John:And there's part of me that, like, I'll get home and I will take off my watch John:so that I don't get notifications because I just need a break. John:And the thought occurred to me that, you know, when I was in a-- Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So right now I'm in a technical lead role. John:I don't actually have a team of engineers reporting to me at this exact moment. John:So half of my career, I've been in people leadership roles Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:that are also technical leadership roles. John:At the moment, I'm in a technical leadership role, John:but I don't have anyone directly reporting to me. John:I'm not counting the project teams and the projects that I'm running. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You could argue I do have people reporting to me indirectly through project structures, John:but let's not go there. John:The point is I've reached that point where I essentially don't get hundreds of emails a day.

John:I'll get probably 20, 30 emails a day, and I'll get people messaging me from time to time, John:but the volume of noise is dropping back, and I'm still finding it too much. Vic:Yeah. John:So I accept the fact that those things can be beneficial, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but I just look at the numbers, and I think to myself, "You know what?

John:The longest a watch has been relevant-- John:sorry, relevant, supported, sorry, by Apple that has a battery that still works John:is probably about six years. John:Now, your mileage may vary. Vic:Yeah, sounds right. John:Your series zero, how long did it last?" Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, okay. Vic:I think it's in a drawer somewhere with the screen popping off again. John:So that's not--that's--okay.

Vic:[LAUGH] John:We need to define what lasting means, but if the screen's popping off, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'm going to suggest that that doesn't last, and that's--funny that. Vic:Yeah, no, actually I think I got rid of it because the screen was popping off and Vic:then I was worried that it was going to catch the house on fire or Vic:something one day, so. John:This is a valid concern. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:That and Apple had stopped supporting it too, and it was abysmally slow.

John:Sure. John:So there reaches a point after six years or so where your watch will no longer do anything. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It won't tell the time. John:It won't give you notifications. John:It essentially will not be supported by Apple, and you'll have something that you can't use, Vic:Mm-hm. John:and you could have put down $1,000 on this watch, let's say, John:because as you know, Vic, I had a predilection. John:It's like I had to have stainless steel or titanium.

John:I had one aluminum watch in the series zero, and after that I decided, no, John:I went to stainless steel, and I couldn't go back. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I needed the sapphire glass because apparently I just bump stuff a lot. John:Anyway, so now if I had have spent, it would have cost me less than that Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:to have bought a nice watch, and I'll bring up Longines John:because I like the look of the Longines watches, but still, John:I could have bought one of those, and that would have lasted 50 to 75 years, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and even with servicing costs, it would still be cheaper, John:and it would still work after 75 years. John:So I could hand that down to my kids, and this is the thing, John:although I don't know which one.

John:I don't know if I'd hand it down to the one who pointed out this would be too hot in here. Vic:It's an heirloom piece. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Maybe he doesn't get it, but I don't know. John:We'll see. Vic:Mm, next down the line. John:Yeah, next year, yeah, my third born, yeah, that one.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Anyway, so I thought that was an interesting thought experiment, John:and I'm not getting at anything specifically right now John:because I still have my Apple Watch, and I still have my series three, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:which I wear now in a two-watch lifestyle because my son no longer wants it, John:and I'm like, "Oh, fine. I'll have that." Vic:Yeah. John:So I have actually gone to a two-watch lifestyle, so I've got one for sleep tracking.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, yeah, one more thing. John:I'm not buying yet another Apple Watch, which I could get a 41-millimeter sports one potentially, John:which I did briefly consider doing, and then I added up how much it costs to date, John:and I'm like, "No, I'm not doing that." Vic:Oh, I wouldn't buy a new one right now. John:Not just for sleep. Vic:I wouldn't buy a new one right now. John:No, I wouldn't either.

Vic:Well, actually I don't think the reason I wouldn't buy a new one right now John:Hmm. Vic:affects you. Vic:Have they disabled the, what was it, the, oh, the blood oxygen sensor. John:No. Vic:They haven't disabled that in your country, have they? John:No, no, no, that's just--that's the United States only, so, yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah, I wouldn't buy one here right now.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's one of those rare situations where being in America is a disadvantage for an Apple product. Vic:Yeah. John:There aren't too many cases where that is the case, but this is one of them. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I cannot believe they've let this thing drag on the way they have. John:It's a matter of principle. Vic:Just send the dump trucks full of money and we'll resolve this thing, man. Vic:[LAUGH] John:You've got your trillions of dollars in the bank, man. Vic:I guess.

John:Come on. You might need that someday to fight off the Department of Justice. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:Greedy bastards. Vic:[LAUGH] John:Oh, my God. John:Which we'll get to. Vic:True that, true that. Vic:Maybe they do need that money, I'll swear. John:Maybe they do. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, dear me. All right. Vic:They're not making it sell in the Apple Vision Pros. John:No, they certainly aren't, and come to think of it, we should probably talk about that too.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, it's still not--at time of recording right now, it is still not available outside of the United States. John:There are noises that it might be getting released in other countries in coming months, John:possibly ahead of WWDC in June. John:As far as I'm aware, it's all just speculation, though. John:It's still only available in the U.S., at least that's my understanding.

John:So, one of the things I wanted to just mention briefly on Apple Vision Pro Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:is when we spoke about it last time, we talked about prism value, Vic:Yeah.

John:and one of the things I just wanted to circle back on and correct myself on Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:was that I had said originally I believed at the time that prism value Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:was related to multifocal or varifocal or progressive lenses, John:whatever the heck you want to call them, similar names for much the same kind of thing. John:And it's not, so no, it is to correct for people that suffer from double vision.

John:So, that is something that the Apple Vision Pro does not support. John:So, you can't get corrective lenses to attach inside the Apple Vision Pro if you have double vision. John:I think it's a relatively rare condition, but irrespective, that's frustrating for people that have got it, John:but it is, irrespective of that, it is not what I thought it was. John:So, I talked a lot about barrel distortion. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, when you've got a multifocal or progressive lens like I've got on my glasses, John:you can pay more money, of course you can, John:to get less barrel distortion beyond the center point of where you look through the glasses. John:So, the very first, this is only my second set of progressive lenses, John:and I'm due to get another set this year because these ones are trashed, John:they're like three and a half years old now.

John:I got them during COVID, that was a fun time, but never mind. John:Anyway, I paid extra for minimal barrel distortion, John:because the first set I did, I just got the cheapest ones, John:and you find you have to turn your head more, left and right, John:because you can't, everything to the left and right of center, John:beyond about maybe plus or minus 30 degrees from where your eyes are looking straight forward, John:it starts to get very distorted, you get this barrel effect. Vic:Mm-hm.

John:And it's just got to do with the refractive index of the glass. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, the more expensive glass, higher refractive index, less barrel distortion. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, you pay for the privilege. John:But in any case, so I said in the last time when we talked about it, Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I said that I was going to let North Americans be the guinea pigs and tell me what the deal was, John:and the other little tip that I was looking for was that the Apple Vision Pro's focal distance for vision is at 1.3 meters, John:which is a pretty standard kind of a figure for VR headsets. Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, if I do, I would get, if I do go, so I am actually going to see the optometrist in another week's time, John:because I've been putting off for too long, I've got to go and do it. John:I will ask them that question, if the script will be good for use at 1.3 meters. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, because I want to get some contact lenses because I'm going and hoping, John:planning to go back to playing cricket for a few seasons while I still can.

John:So, that's another story. Vic:That's cool. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, yeah, apart from that, other things about Apple Vision Pro, John:I think there's a lot of stories about people like returning them en masse. John:I don't know how true that is, although I have heard they have got plenty of them in stock. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, it does sort of suggest that they overestimated. Vic:Yeah. John:So, they're not taking the world by storm, it seems.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But then I think back to the original iPhone launch and they didn't either. John:So, people loved them. John:The people that had iPhones loved them. Vic:I mean, you charge, what is it, 3,400 or 3,400? John:I love mine. John:3,400, yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah, you charge 3,400 for a very expensive Gen 1 product. John:Yeah. John:No. John:No. Vic:It's still struggling to find its use cases. Vic:[LAUGH] And doesn't have a lot to do on it right now.

Vic:And I don't know, it's really funny. Vic:People don't just clamor to buy them. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:No, they don't. Vic:I mean, there was the initial wave, which was, I mean, let's be honest, Vic:people that were gonna buy them no matter what anyway. Vic:But then after that, things just really tapered off.

John:I think because I was thinking about this a few weeks ago, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I was listening to a podcast where some people had them John:and they were talking about their experiences, of course. Vic:Mm-hm. John:And, you know, rather like when I sent you 3D photos, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but you didn't have any way of looking at them, it's like, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:"Well, this is a nice photograph of a cake, but, you know, Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:what do you want me to do with this?" John:It's sort of like you can talk about it as much as you like, John:but until it becomes more ubiquitous, there's a limit. John:And not enough people have had enough VR headsets in their lives. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:There are people, many, many, many people who have never used a VR headset.

John:So, yeah, I would say that is true too. Vic:I was gonna say, that I would say the overwhelming majority have never used it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, it's kind of like the smartphones back in the day, John:like BlackBerrys were something that only business people had. John:The majority of people hadn't used a BlackBerry, Vic:Yeah. John:which is probably the world's first really popular smartphone.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And it wasn't really a full-blown smartphone in the same sense John:that a smartphone is considered these days to have started with the iPhone. John:And even when the iPhone first came out, John:the same thing could have been said of that. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, I look at where we are with the Apple Vision Pro, John:and it doesn't worry me. John:It's like I think that this product is going to eventually be a success.

John:It's just that I've decided as much as I am excited Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I would love to have one, I'm not going to buy one John:on the basis that it's just not quite ready yet. John:It's not quite good enough yet for mass adoption. John:In the same way the original iPhone 2G, whatever you want to call it, John:was before the 3G came out and then the 3GS, John:and things really started to look up. John:So, yeah. Vic:Yeah.

John:[Audience member asks a question] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Oh, yeah, sure. John:[Audience member asks a question] John:Yes, I think it was. Yeah. John:[Audience member asks a question] Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, well, see, I was a freak. Vic:Mm-hm.

John:I had one of my brothers-in-law was over in Vegas, John:and I got him to buy me one from the Vegas Apple store, John:an original iPhone 2G, because you couldn't buy them in Australia, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I went through all the jailbreaking in order to activate it John:to work on Telstra in Australia. John:And so I was the only person I knew that had an iPhone, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:That's hardcore. John:and I was crazy. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It was amazing, though.

John:Beautiful technology. I loved the way it felt. John:But you couldn't get anything for it. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It was unique in Australia at the time, John:so the original iPhone was never even sold here. John:I should have kept it as a collector's item, Vic:Yeah. John:even when the battery refused to charge. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:After a while it just died. The charging circuit was dead on it. Vic:Yeah. Vic:No app store in those days.

John:No. John:But anyway, so then I did over edge. Vic:But you had the internet in your pocket. Vic:And you could see a lovely checkerboard if you scrolled a page too fast. John:Truth. Vic:[LAUGH] John:But I bought the 3GS, and then the 3GS was really transformative. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But anyway. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:All right.

John:So we talked a little bit before about solar panels John:and things electric and cars and so on very briefly, John:but I also have another new toy, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because this one, however, is a little bit more practical in some senses. John:It's a ride-on mower. John:I actually invested in a Ryobi RM300E electric ride-on mower. John:I also got the grass catcher and the trailer with it as well. John:And we had a Makita push mower, electric push mower, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:which had served us well for nearly three summers, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and this was the summer that broke us, Vic:Right. John:because it was hot and wet, like I sort of said actually before, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:talking about the sound booth. John:And the effect that it has on grass is the grass just keeps growing, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it's always too wet when you mow it.

John:It just glugs up, and the whole thing just turns into a green, gluggy, muddy mess, Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and the grass catcher never really works properly, John:so when you're mowing an acre, it also took a very long time. John:So we used to have a ride-on mower like in this place. John:It was a petrol-powered mower like 20 years ago.

John:We had it for about 10 years, John:but it was costing us $1,000 every two years to keep it running in maintenance, John:because it's a specialized engine. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's a small engine, John:so these service shops made their money on charging you lots of money John:to keep your mower running, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I couldn't strip an engine to save my life. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'm an electrical engineer.

John:I'm not a mechanical engineer. John:I'm not a mechanic. John:I don't know--I don't want to know how to do all of that, Vic:Mm-hm. John:and that's just me. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I don't want to spend my weekends learning how to do it either. John:So, you know, having said that, John:I'm sure I could figure it out if I really applied myself, John:but anyway, suffice it to say it got very expensive. Vic:Right.

John:So the mower itself at the time cost us about $3,500,000, John:and over the life of the mower it cost us another $4,500,000 roughly John:in 10 years to maintain it. John:So the whole thing was horrible, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and so we decided after 10 years that we would outsource it, John:and we paid someone to come and actually mow the yard for us, John:which wasn't cheap, but it was still cheaper than trying to maintain a Vic:Yeah. John:ride-on mower.

John:So fast-forwarding to today, this thing costs, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:with all of the other bits, in equivalent dollars, John:almost the same amount of money as the ride-on mower cost 20 years ago. John:So in the same kind of ballpark, but because it's electric Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and there's three electric motors, so you've got one drive motor John:and one for each of the two cutting blades because it's a twin deck, John:and it's a 30-inch cut. Vic:Mm-hm.

John:So this thing will rip through the whole yard. John:When the grass is under control, you'll get through the whole yard Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:in an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes. Vic:That's cool. Vic:Can you do that on a single charge? John:Oh, yeah, easily. Vic:That's cool. John:You can do all that on a single charge and have plenty to spare. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's awesome. John:Now, yeah, now the only downside, the only downside is this is the Vic:That's cool.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:cheapest electric ride-on mower that you can get, John:and it's the cheapest for a reason. Vic:Yeah. John:It has lead-acid batteries. Vic:Uh-oh. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah. John:So there are many people that say after anywhere from two to four years, John:those batteries are just going to die. John:They're standard lead-acid absorbent glass mat. Vic:Same thing as what's in our cars, right?

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Well, the ones in most people's cars are still wet cells, but, yeah, Vic:Oh, okay. John:these are AGM, so absorbent glass mats. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you really can't do much with them, and when they die, they die. John:So anyway, although -- yeah, anyway, so these particular batteries are not John:going to last that long, but you can actually get lithiums to replace it, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and the lithiums will last a lot longer.

John:And, yeah, you retrofit it yourself, it costs you about $800, $900 to retrofit it, Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and then after that you should get five years of life easily out of them. John:So, yeah, and that is still cheaper to maintain and replace batteries every Vic:That sounds like the way to go. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:five years than it was to get my petrol-powered mower maintained. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I still think that is a net win. Vic:Everything's so quiet.

John:Oh, it is so much quieter, and the vibration is practically none. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's like -- obviously you get vibration from the cutting deck, Vic:Yeah. John:but because there's no pulleys, therefore there's no clutch, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:there's no -- like all those other moving parts, it's just so much simpler. Vic:Right.

John:You can literally -- you pull out four locking pins, and you can drop the deck Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and remove it and change the mower blades if you want. Vic:Mm. John:It's so easy. It's incredible. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, yeah, kind of loving it. It's my new toy, so yeah. John:And it's a practical one, so that's good. John:But anyway, so yes, so that's fun. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Mm. All right. Vic:That's cool.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I actually got to play with a zero turn for the-- John:Really? I've never actually driven one. What was it like? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Gonna be using it going forward in the future, I think, for a while. John:Yeah. Vic:Due to circumstances I won't go into, because they're really other people's business.

John:Mm. Nice. Vic:The neighbor lady across the street is in possession of a zero turn mower that used to belong to her husband, who no longer lives in the home. Vic:And she approached me with a deal that I considered too good to pass up. Vic:She was like, hey, if you do my yard too, I'll let you use the zero turn to do your yard. Vic:And I was like, okay. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:It was an interesting experience. John:Yeah. Vic:There's a little bit of a learning curve on it.

Vic:I got a pretty funny video that the wife took of me doing my first few passes through the backyard. Vic:I'll send you one when we get done. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Mm. Vic:There's a little bit of a learning curve to it, but it was a pleasant experience. Vic:I'm going to enjoy getting used to using it. Vic:Started out pretty rocky.

Vic:By the end of the mow, by the time I got back around to see, like, I started in my backyard on purpose, because I was like, if I screw anything up, I want to do it back there. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:I don't want to do it in her yard, and I don't want to do it in my front yard. Vic:So by the time I got around to my front yard, I was doing pretty good. Vic:And by the time I was finishing her yard, I was feeling really comfortable on it.

John:Okay. Vic:So the next time I'm about, it should be a pretty pleasant experience. John:Yeah, they're kind of the workhorse of people that do that sort of thing for a living. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I can't think -- I think every time I've seen like -- yeah, like government council Vic:That's, yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:or, you know, like the private -- like the people we used to have that would mow the lawn, John:you know, like Joe's Lawn Mowing Service, they all use zero-turn mowers.

Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Like the one I've got is not a zero-turn. It's the traditional lawn tractor style. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But yeah, zero-turn, nice. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Cool. Well, I couldn't quite stretch to that, unfortunately, John:because that was like an extra two and a half thousand. Vic:Yeah, well, they're expensive. John:Oh, yeah. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:Right, yeah, they're expensive.

Vic:There's a reason I don't have one, and I probably never will have one. John:Cool. All right. Very good. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:All right. I just want to talk a little bit about -- there's two more things, John:and we're almost at the main topic I want to talk about. John:I want to talk a little bit about OP3, which is the Open Podcast Prefix Project. John:Have I ever spoken to you about this before? I can't remember. Vic:I don't think so.

John:All right. Well, OP3 is a -- so there's one -- it's an initiative that was kicked off Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:in relation to -- but it's not part of -- Podcasting 2.0. John:And it's -- so the guy behind it is a guy called John Spurlock, John:and he developed this to run off of Cloudflare infrastructure.

John:And what it does is you put a prefix -- well, like any tracker that you have John:in your podcast media files, you attach a tracker to the front of the MP3 file, John:and then every time -- and then you put that in the RSS feed.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So when a downloader like Overcast does a client or Apple Podcasts grabs a copy John:of your MP3 file, it first goes to the prefix, which is the op3.dev prefix, John:and it registers an account as to where it's coming from, as in like country Vic:Yep. John:and time and date, yada, yada, yada. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And then it redirects you to the actual file, and then you download the file directly. John:So it's like any other prefix for any other tracker. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But the difference is that this is -- it's fully open source, John:so anyone can actually inspect the code, and basically it is not for profit. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I started supporting op3 about a year and a half ago. John:I haven't really spoken too much about it, but I probably should because when you're John:with someone like -- because I've been with Libsyn as a media host for my MP3 files.

John:I was with Libsyn for a long time in two separate stints, John:and I was also with Blueberry for a while, and I've also hosted my own on my own server Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:with no stats at all. John:And I sort of -- stats are kind of -- when I'm not chasing sponsors, John:stats are almost irrelevant. John:But it is a nice litmus test to at least say, "C.A., is there something wrong?" Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Like when I put an episode up, and if I'm only getting a few hundred downloads John:instead of a few thousand, it's like, "Okay, well, there's something wrong here. John:What's going on?" So that's the first thing. John:The second thing is it's nice to know if the show is growing or shrinking John:as just a rough guide.

John:But the problem with download stats is that they can be very easily manipulated John:such that it's like -- if you're doing it for advertising purposes, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:there's more of a potentially malicious intent, shall we say, John:with trying to amp up the numbers a bit to attract sponsors, but still. Vic:Yeah. John:Since I'm not doing that, I don't care about that.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But anyway, bottom line is -- so I donate $10 U.S. a month to John Spurlock, John:to the OpenOP3 project, and there's a whole bunch of other sponsors John:from companies or individuals. John:I'm only sponsoring at the minimum level as a podcaster John:because I'm getting benefit directly out of it. John:So if you don't want to host your files on somewhere like Blueberry and Libsyn, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you want to do your own thing like me, or if you want to have John:a truly independent open-source way of tracking your statistics, John:have a look at OP3. John:You don't have to donate anything. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's up to you. John:But I just think it's been great, solid, reliable, and it gives you charts John:that in many ways are better than Libsyn because you had to pay for Libsyn Pro John:to get the pro-level statistics.

John:This is not quite as detailed as the Libsyn Pro, but it's damn close. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Libsyn Pro was--I'm trying to remember what it was, John:but it was more than I was paying a month. John:I was just getting basic stats. John:I think I was getting like--I think I was doing--yeah, Vic:That's, that's, yeah.

John:I was doing 5 plus 7--oh, 5 plus 2 was--so $7 a month times by 3 shows, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:so analytical, pragmatic, and causality because you have to pay at Libsyn John:per show, whereas OP3, it's just like it's pay what you like sort of thing. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You don't have to pay anything if you don't want to. John:But, you know, anyway, so $10 a month is still much cheaper John:than what I was costing at Libsyn.

John:And I'm hosting all of my files on storage in DigitalOcean in a bucket John:backed behind Cloudflare. Vic:Mm-hm. John:So the whole exercise is not costing me as much as it used to, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but at the same time I'm getting better statistics than I used to. John:So I have no issue, you know, throwing money John Spurlock's way Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:to pay for the service because he gets a bill from Cloudflare. John:The money goes to pay the Cloudflare bill.

John:So anyway, just thought I'd mention that. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I'm looking at it. Vic:This is pretty cool. John:So I've got links. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you go to--yeah, I mean, if you go to the Engineer Network website Vic:I'm looking at their example travel podcast stats page.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm. John:and go to Causality, like select the actual show Causality, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:if you scroll right to the bottom, you'll see there's a link right at the bottom Vic:Mm-hm. John:that says simply Stats. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So if you select Stats at the bottom, you'll go to the OP3 page John:that shows all the statistics for Causality now in OP3. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And these are open. John:Anyone can look at them.

John:So if you've ever wondered how many downloads Causality gets, Vic:Mm-hm. John:so like I think the 30-day average is something like just over 4,000 downloads Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:an episode for Causality, for example. Vic:Mm-hm. John:And there's only stats in there for the last four or five episodes Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because I've only been using OP3 for that long. John:So I don't have in my prior statistics. John:So yeah, anyway, there you go. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Have a look. John:If stats are your thing and you're very curious, Vic:Mm-hm. John:then OP3 is a good way of doing it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:The only downside of it is that some people will say, "Oh, yeah, John:but then your stats are public." John:And it's like, "Yeah, so what?" John:Some people are very coy about how many downloads they get. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But anyway, all righty.

Vic:If you're, if you're chasing sponsors, then you kind of need them to be anyway. Vic:Well, I don't guess they need to be public. John:Well, the problem that you've got is that if you're chasing advertisers, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:there's this little club called the IAB. John:And IAB certified statistics have a bunch of rules around it, John:but you have to pay to be certified, John:and it costs money to maintain certification, which I sort of understand, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but at the same time it's just another system for measuring what is a valid John:download and what isn't. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you've got like block lists and different things, John:and John Spurlock has a whole bunch of that stuff. John:He doesn't certify it as being IAB compliant, but it's pretty close. John:So it's got all the common sense ones in there. Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But I mean I honestly think if you're an advertiser these days, John:advertisers don't trust anybody. John:Well, the big ones don't. John:So what they'll do is they'll say you have to use this prefix and add this Vic:Yeah, true. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:prefix onto the episodes and they'll track it. Vic:So they'll give you their own.

John:And it's gotten so bad with prefixes that some shows have got like -- Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I think they were saying on Episode of Podcasting 2.0 they found one MP3 John:file that had 15 trackers appended to it, 15 redirects, if you can believe it. Vic:Wow. Vic:[LAUGH] That's a lot of redirecting. John:It's ridiculous. John:So, yeah, so my issue is that if there's no agreed standard, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:if the numbers can be gamed, then is it really a good measure for an advertiser?

Vic:True. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And the answer is, of course, no, it's not. John:But it is for a lazy advertiser. John:And the way it -- like the way the professionals do it is they'll say, well, John:I'm going to give your show a shot because you say you've got 25,000 downloads, John:you know, an episode or whatever. Vic:Right, yeah. John:Now, because of that, they'll then say, right, here's a promo code.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now, you go and use your promo code in the episode and you say, oh, you know, John:sign up to like Round Area, let's say. Vic:Mm-hm. John:It's a website building place, Round Area. John:You may have heard of it. John:And we're going to use coupon code Pragmatic Rocks, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and that will get you 50% off of Round Area for the next, you know, Vic:Mm-hm. John:people that sign up.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But the problem is that it's like download share John:and mind share drives coupon code usage. John:So, for example, let's say that another podcast, John:let's say the Intentional Technology Show, John:and on the Intentional Technology Show they have also got Round Area. John:And Round Area coupon code for them is, you know, John:Intentional Technology Show Rocks. John:So people will listen to both Pragmatic as well as Intentional Technology Show.

John:And when it comes time to sign up for Round Area, they'll say, oh, well, John:which was the first show that comes to mind, John:the show that has the larger mind share, John:and then they will go and put in the promo code from the other show, not mine. John:So I don't get any credit for it. John:So then it sets up as like a game between all the listeners John:and then the show, the podcast hosts.

John:And it's like, well, if you sign up, you want to support the show, John:sign up using my promo code, then you'll listen to the next show, John:it's the same advertiser with a different code. John:No, no, no, sign up with my promo code. John:And the poor person is sitting there thinking, John:I like both shows, what do I do? John:And so what tends to happen is the big get bigger and the small get pushed out, John:and that's the way that has happened.

John:So then they will say, so Round Area will then look at all their coupon code John:usages and say, well, Pragmatic has got like three or four John:and Intentional Technology Show has got hundreds. John:And it's like, right, you know what I mean. Vic:Intentional technology show. Vic:[LAUGH] Yeah. John:Yes, exactly. Vic:Dear listener, when faced with this predicament, support the little guy.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But, I mean, I'm well out of that, and I don't necessarily want to go back John:to doing that because it becomes part of that game, and I don't. Vic:Yeah. John:It's just it's tiring, you know, it's tiring because you're forever trying John:to produce content and you're trying to produce content and appeal Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:to the listeners and say sign up for this, sign up for that.

John:All I say to listeners of my shows is if you want to help keep this show ad free, John:you can help by becoming a supporter. John:That's all you've got to do. Vic:Yeah. John:And you don't support on a, you know, necessarily you can choose Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:a whole bunch of different, you know, levels that you can support John:at if you want to or not at all. John:It's entirely up to you, different perks for different levels. Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And, you know, the Podcasting 2.0 crew, and Adam Currie in particular, John:really loves this whole idea of value for value where you don't even have bands. John:You don't say here's a dollar a month, $3 a month, $5 a month. John:It's like just give us what you want. Vic:Yeah. John:If you think I'm worth 50 cents, you give me 50 cents. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you think I'm worth $5 million, I'll happily accept your $5 million. John:You know, it's like you pay, yeah.

Vic:It's on the way right now. Vic:[LAUGH] John:And that's fine if that's the way you want to do it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's not the only way to do it, but it is a way to do it. John:And, I mean, I've, you know, I look at it like this. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If someone really wants to give you money, they're going to do it. John:And no matter which system you use, I don't think any one is better or worse.

John:I like the idea of being paid or people being showing appreciation John:and paying like for an episode and saying, "Well, I really like this episode."

John:And like, for example, with Satoshi's and boosting, John:and I know this goes back to the whole cryptocurrency thing, John:but if you don't mind the contentiousness of it, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:for example, the last episode of "Causality," I got like in Australian dollars John:the equivalent of a $46 boost from someone who'd loved the show. John:And the comment was, "I need to listen to this again." John:And I'm like, "Well, thanks, man. That's awesome."

John:Now, they're not a patron or anything like that, John:and that's not advertising either. John:And I have no idea when it's going to come in. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I have no idea if people are going to like what I do. John:So I just keep doing what I'm doing. John:People that are going to support me are going to support me.

John:Advertising is a very, very different game, John:and it's a game that, frankly, I'm glad that I'm not playing anymore John:because it just seems--it is a bit of a hustle, Vic:It's a real hustle too. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it seems a bit disingenuous in a lot of ways. John:And so, yeah. John:Anyway, all of this is to say, OP3 rocks. John:Support it if you're interested in stats. Vic:That's cool. John:And, yeah, because honestly, I'm never going to give another cent to Libsyn.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'm done with Libsyn. John:Yep. Vic:Yeah. Vic:And it's really easy to use too. Vic:I mean, if you're already using something like Blueberry, you can do this. John:Exactly right. Vic:You're just appending a prefix to your URL. John:So it's like you could use this on the entry level of Libsyn Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and use this as a prefix, and you will get better stats. John:So, like, use Libsyn for your file hosting Vic:Yeah.

John:and then just get all your stats somewhere else Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:if that's what you care about. John:Anyway, enough said. John:Enough said. John:Advertising is what it is. John:Okay. John:I do want to quickly talk about something that's cricket-related. John:So for people that hate cricket, you can skip this chapter if you'd like. John:But I went to a Test Match. John:Do you know what a Test Match is? Vic:I do not. John:Okay. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:No judgement. John:That's fine.

John:It's just like when someone says it's the sixth out on the fourth inning John:and I don't know what that means. John:It's something to do with baseball. Vic:Mm. John:I don't know. Vic:Oh, you know more than I do. John:Really? Vic:[LAUGH] John:Okay, great. Vic:Yeah. John:There's a thing called an end zone, and I don't know what that means. Vic:I really don't pay much attention to any of the sports balls or sports pucks or sports this or that.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But apparently someone who has a quarter on their back throws a ball John:and they receive things. John:Anyway, look, I am showing my complete ignorance of other sports, John:but it doesn't-- Vic:That sounds very interesting. Vic:[LAUGH] John:My God, I'm terrible at this. Vic:No, not at all. John:I'm terrible. I'm terrible. Vic:[LAUGH] John:I'm sorry if I've just insulted all the listeners that love-- Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I think that'd be NFL. John:Fair enough.

Vic:I don't really have anything against sports fans these days, Vic:but I just don't have any personal interest in it really. John:Well, look, I've loved cricket ever since I was a kid. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And I used to go up to the nets and practice all the time, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:play cricket with my mates. John:And it turns out I'm terrible at batting. John:I'm actually a pretty half-decent bowler. John:I bowl right arm offspin, for those that know what that means.

John:And I grew up in Rockhampton, which is a downside John:because Rockhampton's in the middle of nowhere, well, so to speak, John:such that no big international teams would regularly visit Rockhampton. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you wanted to go to them, you'd have to drive for seven hours John:and go to Brisbane, which is, of course, now where I do live, John:so I can go and see international games any time I want. Vic:Mm.

John:So the very first form of cricket, the first format of cricket, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:was referred to as a test match, and they still exist today. John:And test matches go for five days maximum. John:And you have two teams, and each team has 11 players John:with a 12th man that's there in case someone gets injured. John:And they generally run around, run the drinks out, John:and substitute people when they need to go off and whatever, anyhow. John:And there are two innings each.

John:So depending upon who bats well and who bowls well John:depends on whether it goes for five days. John:Some test matches have been over in a single day. John:That's very rare. John:Two days, sometimes three days is common. John:Four days is also common. John:Test matches that go to four or five days these days John:are becoming a bit of a rarity.

John:But in any case, the form of cricket, the original form of cricket, John:and some say the only true form of the game, if you believe that, John:then, you know, yeah, I know, right? Vic:Boy. John:This is when you start religious wars about cricket. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Got the purist. John:Yeah, the purists, right? Vic:[LAUGH] John:So they call the test matches the original and the best form of cricket. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And I do believe that test matches have a lot going for them.

John:But you need one thing with test matches, John:and that is as someone who's enjoying the game, you need patience. John:And not only that, you need up to five days in a row. John:So for most people that work a full-time job, John:getting five days off in a row to watch a single game John:is a bit of a commitment. Vic:Yeah. John:But anyway, so when I was a kid, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I never saw an international test match ever, and I always wanted to.

John:I never saw a one-day international, which is strangely played in one day, John:as the name suggests, or a T20, which is a 20 overs per side, Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:limited overs game, it's over in three hours, John:three and a half hours roughly. John:So anyway, finally, at 47 years old, I went to a test match. John:It was Australia versus the West Indies, Vic:Mm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it was played at the Gabba Cricket Ground, John:which is in the suburb of Woolloongabba, John:hence the Gabba, John:which is the Aboriginal name for the area. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So the Gabba is our largest cricket ground in Brisbane and Queensland, John:and I went there with two of my kids, John:my daughter and my third-born, so my second son, John:who just loves playing cricket. John:So it was lovely to finally go to a test match.

John:I wrote a blog article about it on Tech Distortion. Vic:That's cool. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It just took me a long time, but I finally got to it, John:and it was beautiful being able to go with my own kids, John:because my wife hates cricket with a passion. John:She made--well, she hit it well in the first few months of our relationship, Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but then she cracked and confessed that she hated it. Vic:See, you had the old bait and switch.

Vic:You had the old bait and switch. Vic:[LAUGH] John:In that dimension, at least, yes, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because, yes, she would come along and watch me play back when I was playing John:in the Warehouse Cricket Competition. John:This was going back 22 years ago. John:And so, yes, when I was playing, she would come along and watch, John:but I would find more and more excuses to her coming along, John:and I sort of asked her one time.

John:I said, "Hey, what's--you haven't been coming along to as many games." John:She said, "I need to break something to you." John:I'm like, "Okay, here we go." John:So, yes, but never mind. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:It was a conversation that started with the phrase, John:Something like that. Vic:you know I love you, right? Vic:[LAUGH] John:It possibly was, yes. John:But anyway, well, that's fine. John:It's not everyone's game.

John:I absolutely understand that, and it does consume a lot of time, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:unlike some games that are over in an hour or two. John:So I do understand why some people find it a bit much. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That's okay.

John:But anyway, so, yes, finally went to a Test Match, had a great time, John:and I wrote a long blog post going through all of that for anyone who cares, John:which may not be very many people, John:so we should probably move on to something that more people do care about. John:What do you think? Vic:Okay. John:Yeah? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Time for a sponsor? John:I'm just kidding. Vic:Sounds good. Vic:Sure. John:I'm kidding.

Vic:[LAUGH] John:I'd like to talk to you about a sponsor for this episode, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and that is the Department of Justice and an Apple antitrust lawsuit. John:So, hmm, strange sponsor. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:All right. John:So have you been following the antitrust lawsuit the DOJ raised against Apple? Vic:Mainly just via the coverage from AATP. John:Right. John:Okay. Vic:And I must concede I haven't heard the most recent episode yet.

John:Okay. John:So I guess I wrote a long article about this, and I'm going to, you know, again, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'll stand up and admit that I looked at incorrect numbers because my problem was, John:when I originally did all this analysis, when it comes to the definition of, you know, John:the definition of like--so antitrust is all about a company has a monopoly and not the game, John:but they're restricting competition because they have a monopoly. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And so--if it's up to the DOJ, they'd probably send Tim Cook to jail if they could. Vic:So we're not, we're not, we're not, we're going directly to jail. Vic:We're not passing go and we're not collecting $200. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They won't be able to, but good luck with that. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Anyway, my God, anyhow, all right. John:So here come all the monopoly jokes, man.

Vic:[LAUGH] John:They should have bought Mayfair when they had the chance and built some hotels. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Anyway, just don't land on it. Vic:My family always played it with a huge pile of money under the free parking square. Vic:Did you guys ever do that? John:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. Vic:If you ever land exactly on that, you get the pile of money. John:Mm-hmm, yep, oh yeah, good times. Vic:Yeah. John:It's funny, though, people tweaking the rules.

Vic:I actually haven't played Monopoly since I was a kid, Vic:but I remember it being a pretty fun game. John:No, we played--like, we played it a few times. Vic:A pretty intense game sometimes, but pretty fun. John:We played it a few times during COVID, and my wife, being a ruthless former accountant, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:would tend to win almost every time. Vic:Oh boy.

Vic:[LAUGH] John:And she said to me a couple of years ago--it wasn't that long ago, about 18 months ago, I guess-- Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:"Oh, we should play another game of Monopoly." John:And I'm like, "Why?" John:"So you can kick our asses again." John:And I was like, "No." Vic:Wait, I got it. Vic:Oh, you didn't start the conversation with, you know I love you, right? Vic:[LAUGH] John:That is generally not how I start conversations with my wife, unless--yeah, anyway, all right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:We're going to get back on topic. Vic:Okay. John:So when I did all my math and calculations and digging into all of this, one minor detail, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because I'm not American, and in fact 96% of the world's population aren't American either, John:but the problem is, of course, the Department of Justice is American, John:and hence they are looking at this from a point of view of American statistics, not global statistics.

Vic:Right. John:So when I originally wrote the article, which I do have an item on my to-do list to adjust the numbers, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but it doesn't change the conclusion, but in the United States, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:iPhones have a market share of about 60% of the market. John:Now, that is not a monopoly. John:That is a majority. Vic:No. John:It is just a majority, but it is not a monopoly. Vic:Yes. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:There is a difference.

John:So globally, it is nowhere near that. John:So Apple's influence is very U.S.-centric, and I mean, I've been an Apple fanboy for years. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I've got--like, I'm podcasting on a MacBook Air, an M2 MacBook Air. John:I love this thing. John:I have an Apple Watch on. John:I have an iPhone. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I've got all the Apples except the edible kind because I don't like apples, but don't worry about that.

John:If you look at it from a global perspective, then in Q1 of--like, from Q1 2023, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Samsung effectively, they own--they more qualify for being a monopoly--well, not a monopoly, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but certainly a big majority. John:So Apple and smartphone sales globally, six out of the eight quarters in the last two years, Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:2022 and 2023, they were beaten by Samsung in terms of sales, John:and their market share is about 20% globally. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So 20% globally and 60% in the United States, you know, do they really have market power over the remainder? John:And there is no set--there's no set threshold, but if you are at 50%, would you say you have market power over the other 50%? John:No. John:If you've got 51%, do you have market power over the other 49%? Vic:No.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Very, very slight. John:Not really, not really. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's like, at what point does that break over? John:And it's like somewhere between 75% to 80% market share, I would say you are at a point John:when you could be considered to having your approaching monopoly. John:And the thing that's interesting is going back to the last Department of Justice antitrust thing, Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:they had a go at Microsoft, and Microsoft had something like 90%, 95% of computers had a Microsoft Windows running on it. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's like that was a monopoly. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That fit the definition of what a monopoly was, but this is not. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, yeah, I know.

Vic:You know the part that amused me about that is that in that whole thing, Vic:they never really got bent about the fact that it was Windows on 90%. Vic:It was just the bundling of Internet Explorer got everybody's panties in a wad. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's like--so this is the thing is I didn't want to spend too much time talking about the statistics John:and the debate over what's a monopoly and what's not a monopoly.

John:It's just that, you know, the intention is are they restricting trade? Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Are they, you know--is what they're doing like--is it stifling competition? John:Is it anti-competitive? John:And so if you read some of the lines out of it, and I read through the whole submission from the DOJ, Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I'll read some of it out here because I think it's useful just to--well, maybe-- John:I'm not going to try and poke fun at it, but I will point out the problems. Vic:It's iPhone Monopoly. John:So starting off, this is a quote. John:"Unless Apple's anti-competitive and exclusionary conduct is stopped, John:it will likely extend and entrench its iPhone monopoly to other markets and parts of the economy." John:Sure. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Sure it will. John:Next thing.

John:"This case is about freeing smartphone markets from Apple's anti-competitive and exclusionary conduct Vic:Mm-hm. John:and restoring competition to lower smartphone prices for consumers, John:reducing fees for developers, and preserving innovation for the future." John:And then the last one I will quote is, "By maintaining its monopoly over smartphones, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Apple is able to harm consumers in a wide variety of additional ways." Vic:Yeah.

John:So all of that contains several references to exclusionary conduct, monopoly over smartphones, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and essentially control of the market, and hence the markets need to be free for smartphones John:because of the exclusionary conduct, and there's not enough competition. Vic:Yeah.

John:So the thing that's interesting is that if you look at the stats, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Apple's market share in the United States is dropping, John:and if you look at the stats globally, it's been pretty average for a long time. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So there's no evidence that actually backs up that. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So the assertion is that if it's allowed to continue, it's just going to entrench its monopoly.

John:Well, forget that it's a monopoly because it's not a monopoly, but it's going to grow over time, Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it's not growing. John:That's been part of the complaint with Apple lately. John:To compensate for the lower sales, they're jacking their prices up, right? Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So it's not actually--yeah, I know, right? Vic:Right. Vic:>> The services, man, services.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So there are lots of problems when factual inaccuracies are a lot of the DOJ's submission, John:and so I wrote a whole article just called "Antitrust," Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I've got to tweak some of the numbers to make sure that that adds up. John:I'll update that. John:By the time this comes out, I probably will have done it. John:But in any case, so they do actually have a reference to the Act John:and how it interprets a monopoly. John:So I will read this.

John:This is not out of the DOJ submission. John:This is out of a reference to the original Sherman Act, which is, John:"An unlawful monopoly exists when one firm has market power for a product or service Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and it has obtained or maintained that market power not through competition on the merits John:but because the firm has suppressed competition by engaging in anti-competitive conduct."

Vic:Yeah. John:So my problem is I wanted to break this down as to--apart from the fact that that wording is really clumsy. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That's not actually the Sherman Act. John:That is a legal interpretation made by a government body in subsequent years Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because the Sherman Act goes back a long time. John:So in any case, it goes back a ways. Vic:A long time. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I will start with it says "for a product or service."

John:So when they say "product," they don't mean that in a singular literal sense, like a single widget. John:If you make the same widget and you make 100 widgets, they're exactly the same from the same supplier, John:certified made by that supplier, then every widget by this definition would be a monopoly. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So clearly it doesn't mean a physical product. Vic:Right.

John:It's more a product in the interpretation of a product class or a product type, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:maybe even a product category, but it's like in air quotes "smartphone." Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So if this thing is called a smartphone and it does all of the same sorts of features John:but it's made by different companies, that's what they're really talking about. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So it doesn't--but it's not phrased that way.

John:So the problem is that you can't--so you can use the phrase "an iPhone monopoly," John:and that's actually a non sequitur because the iPhone is the iPhone. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's not a monopoly because you're the only company that makes the iPhone. John:You could argue--of course they do. Vic:Yes, Apple has a monopoly on iPhones. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And in the same--obviously, right? Vic:[LAUGH] John:This is the stupidity of the wording, right?

John:So the reality is that it's not. It's the product type. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you could say it's a smartphone monopoly. John:So one of the many things that I call out in this DOJ submission John:is that they actually do use the correct wording later in the document. John:They do actually refer to it as a smartphone monopoly, John:which it isn't, although they assert that it is. Vic:Mm-hm.

John:But you could also argue the same is true of service because I say product or service. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So similarly, you could say a service is really not a service but a service type. John:And in the context of a smartphone, it could be text messaging, multimedia messaging, email, like whatever. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Like it's a service that is provided that goes with the device. John:And for those ones I've listed, none of them qualify as being monopolies either.

John:When I sort of thought about this some more, it's like, John:well, what did the Department of Justice really mean to say? John:Because there's what they said, which was, you know, a bit average, John:or as the cool kids these days say, it's a bit mid. John:But you know what? It's fine. John:They're just a bunch of people trying to do something that they don't fully understand. John:But their intent, I think, if I were to extrapolate from the key points, Vic:Mm-hm.

John:I would have phrased it like this. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I'll quote myself from my article. John:"All smartphones and personal computers shall be open to install and run applications, apps, John:at the discretion of the owner and user of the hardware in question." John:I actually think that that would resolve all of the non sequiturs and BS in the DOJ's submission. John:If I had an iPhone and I could install any app I wanted on it, that would satisfy them, in short. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That's not what they say in their submission, exactly, but that is what they are getting at. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, and you should not be, by extension, therefore locked to an app store where they skim money off the top, Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:which I didn't put in my little one-sentence summary, but, you know, one thing leads to another. John:I should be allowed to do this if I want to, like I can on my Mac. Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And this is what bugs me about this whole situation, is that Apple have this thing in their head John:that the way it is on a Mac is the way it's always been. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And so I can sort of like install whatever the hell I want on my Mac, and it's at my own risk. Vic:Boy, I'll bet you there's a contingent in there that would love to change that if they thought they could get away with it.

John:Of course, and they've added system integrity protection, they've added Gatekeeper, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you know, a whole bunch of different technologies in recent years that make it, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:where they add warnings and they say, "Oh, you know, you're installing this software from somewhere on the Internet, you know, could be bad." Vic:Gotta click on the scare sheet.

John:Yeah, so whatever you want to call it, the scary dialog box and stuff that warns you, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you know, the sky could fall, and then you click OK and nothing happens, and it's like, "Great, well, thanks, cheers." Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And it's like, but they don't stop you. But on iOS, you don't even get that choice. John:You won't even see the app, it won't even get to you. Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And so Apple will cite a whole long list of reasons to justify their restrictiveness on iOS. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Like, "Oh, it's a mobile device, you don't want bad actors on your mobile device John:because it's connected through mobile phone networks and there's download restrictions and they could, you know, spam people." John:It doesn't really matter. Vic:They could bring down the whole cellular network with a rogue application.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, you see, it doesn't really matter. John:And the reason that it doesn't matter anymore is because I think they've crossed, John:the smartphone category has crossed the line from being a toy or a curiosity John:or something just for tech nerds or rich geeks or like whatever people to play with as a thing. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's now become ubiquitous and people are reliant. They've become reliant. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yes.

John:We as a culture, yeah, it's become a... Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:It's a utility. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:It's almost up there with electric and water. John:Yeah, exactly. And this is the thing, no one seems to be talking about this, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:which is, you know, I look at all platforms that succeed, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and I've been thinking about this for years and I'm just never bothered to write it down until now.

John:So thank you, DOJ, for helping to crystallize my thoughts on this. John:But anyway, I think that all platforms, no matter what they are, John:will go through several stages of existence, at least the ones that end up going somewhere.

John:And when I say platform, I try to keep it generic because a mobile phone or a smartphone platform, John:you could argue that, you know, like a smartphone is a kind of a derivative of a mobile phone, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and a mobile phone is a derivative of a telephone that was plugged into a wall, you know, John:and the telephone plugged in the wall is a derivative of you yelling at someone from the next room, like whatever. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:You know, it's not... I'm trying to point out that, I mean, railroads, for example, John:and I talk about railroads in the article, like railroads were a formative technology John:and a platform, so to speak, to get people like goods and services and people around the world John:and countries as well. So it's like I tried to keep it generic and say platform John:because I genuinely believe that this is a generic life cycle that all of these things go through.

John:So I've sort of suggested there are six stages to this. John:And the first stage is invention. It's got to start with invention. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:There was a time before railways existed. There was a time before phones and smartphones John:and mobile phones existed. So these platforms did not exist. They were invented. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And then initially, you'll have people that will be the early adopters. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They'll be the ones that, not just people, but companies as well. John:So like, or even governments, like people that will see this technology that's been invented Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and realize that this is a platform that's going to be very useful for whatever reason, John:but it's still fringe. Very little of it exists. There's not much there. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you need to invest in it and build it out before it becomes really recognized as a platform. John:So the next stage after that is competition. John:So you're not the only person that thinks as an early adopter, it might be the first smart, John:true smartphone you could argue, I think, in its form that we believe today was the iPhone.

John:But it was shortly followed by many, many more different platforms, different companies, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:all competing, and that's that competition phase. John:And so after you've reached that level of competition and the platform has essentially been, Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:has spread far and wide, it reaches the point of ubiquity, at which point when you say to someone, John:"Hey, have you seen this new smartphone, blah, blah, blah," they know what you're talking about.

John:And when these things become ubiquitous, they've become ubiquitous for a reason. John:They make our lives easier. You get on a train, you can go from New York to Boston Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:in not a very long period of time. That's a good thing. People want to get around. John:It becomes ubiquitous. "Oh, I'm just going to jump on the train and go from blah, blah, blah." John:It becomes a thing. "I'm just going to make a call on my phone." It becomes a thing.

John:It's ubiquitous everywhere. And then after that happens, then we reach this point, John:and this is a very fuzzy line, but at some point we cross from ubiquity to reliance. John:And that's the point at which you take that away, things start falling apart. John:You start relying on this technology. So people will say, "Well, there's this town on the railway line John:and there's no clean water source, but there's gold," let's say, or "There's no food, Vic:Mm-hm.

John:there's no crops in the area because it's in the middle of a desert," or "There's a place that's 5.1 kilometers Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:up in Peru," for example. I was reading about it a few days ago where there's a gold mine, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but there's very little sanitation or anything like that, and they bring mercury to the place Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:to leech out the gold and extract and purify the gold. So there's now people dying of mercury poisoning Vic:That sounds great. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and stuff like that. Yeah, good stuff. But it's like the place has no reason to exist. John:It's become reliant on the train going past to deliver supplies. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you take the technology away, they're reliant on it, so you can't not have it anymore. Vic:Right.

John:It's going to have real-world impacts, and the smartphone has crossed this line. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It is now something we rely on. There are forms that you fill in to play on sports teams, John:to do banking with. There are some banks that are fully virtual. John:You can't actually go into a bank branch. They don't have any. Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They're purely dependent upon the computers and our smartphones, and everyone these days has a smartphone, John:so everyone's like, "Well, we're going to use smartphones for ticketing now." Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So you want to get on a train, like around town. You want to get on a bus. John:You tap on when you get on the bus, you tap on when you get off, and we'll charge your credit card.

John:It's like these things have become the only way in which certain things can be done. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now, a lot of people say, "Oh, that's bad. That's terrible. You shouldn't do that. John:There should always be a manual system and a manual workaround." Vic:Mm-hm. John:And maybe that's true, but that doesn't change the fact that we have become reliant upon them.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So we now reach the sixth and final stage, which is the one everyone hates, and that is regulation. John:Now, there's no reason why you've got to wait until you're reliant on something before it gets regulated. John:In fact, you probably shouldn't, but the truth is Apple has reached that point with its smartphones. John:It is now we are reliant upon these devices, and so governments like the EU are going to legislate.

John:In the U.S., apparently they don't like to legislate. John:They just like to throw antitrust lawsuits at big companies because they think it's fun. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I don't know, but either way, it's going to get regulated. Vic:That's a party, man. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's a party, and one person's invited, and his name's Tim Cook. John:Anyway, the thing is that it's inevitable. Where we've reached right now is absolutely inevitable. Vic:Mm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now, whether or not the Department of Justice should have raised an antitrust lawsuit or not, in my opinion, no. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They should never have bothered because it doesn't qualify as a monopoly. John:They don't really have market power, and if they really wanted to do something properly, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:they would have gone down the road of the Digital Markets Act or something similar to it. Vic:Yeah, legislation, yeah.

John:That's what they should have done, legislated, and eventually they will do that. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But that's a different department, right? That's not Department of Justice. John:So that's some other department in the government writing legislation. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But, you know, hey, it's fine. It's whatever. John:But the point is that I genuinely believe that people should have the right to install what they want on their device. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:It's their device. They've paid for it. Stop telling them what they can and can't do on their damn device. John:If they want to do it, they can. It's that simple. Vic:Mm-hm. John:App stores, you know, can exist. There's no reason why they can't exist. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But that cannot be the only way that you can put... John:Because it's like Apple doesn't own my phone. I own my phone. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, like, don't tell me what I can and can't put on it.

John:That is the essence of an open market, is that you have a device where you can openly choose. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It'd be like, I bought my house from Apple, so now I have to buy only the breakfast cereal that Apple has on their shelf. John:And they only have one kind. It's called Froot Loops. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And I hate Froot Loops because there's too much sugar in it. Vic:Yeah, yeah. John:And it's like, oh, too bad.

Vic:And it's basically, yeah, and it's basically just as much a general purpose computer as anything else these days. John:What? John:It's become that. Exactly. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yep. John:And some people don't even have a computer. They just have a smartphone. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They don't have a desktop. They don't have a laptop. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Because you can do practically everything on a smartphone now. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:I mean, it's insane. It's great. It's amazing. It's incredible. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You can shove a computer in your pocket, effectively. John:Like young me, you know, hacking away on the VIC-20. Vic:Mm-hm. John:When you look at an iPhone now, it's like, my God, how far we have come. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's insane. John:But it's like, but Apple need to snap the f*** out of it. John:Because seriously, they have lost.

John:They will lose in the long term. They will not get their way. John:They will have to allow side loading. And they are going to have to get over it. John:Do you think the world will ever see a world where people are using the same technology as they are using it? Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I think so, too. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And I think all it's going to do is highlight.

John:Because what this is doing is it will highlight there are alternatives for people that didn't already know this. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But you know what? The majority of the world's population already knows that there are alternatives, John:and they are using them right now. So it's like, okay. Vic:And they're making themselves look so greedy and petty. John:Do you think Apple will ever be able to achieve what they want? John:Yeah, they are.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's really, it's a sad day, I think. John:But ultimately, I think this antitrusting will fail. John:They certainly won't achieve what they want it to achieve. John:It will get dragged on for years, if not decades. Vic:Mm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:All the while, legislation will be written that will actually do the job properly. John:And Apple will be forced to do it if they want to sell phones in their own country. Vic:Yeah. John:It's just that is 100% inevitable.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, I would stake Bitcoin on it. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Anyway, so look, I am going to tweak the numbers. Vic:That's a strong bet. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, really. John:Honestly, I wrote that article a few weeks ago. Vic:Mm-hm. John:It's up on Tech Distortion. There's a link to it in the show notes. Feel free to read it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I know everyone has had their own opinions on this.

John:And there was a bunch of talk on other tech podcasts. I won't name them. John:But it's funny that some people sort of say, well, smartphones are different. John:And so therefore, they should be treated differently to a Mac platform. John:And I'm like, we're arguing over physical differences that don't make any sense anymore. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You know, like. Vic:No, it's just a historical precedent that the MAC has always been unrestricted.

John:Well, I mean, here's the thought experiment, right? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If I have a laptop and I give it a virtual keyboard and a touch screen, which do exist on non-Apple machines, this is not a revolutionary idea. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm. John:You could argue that at that point you have got a large phone. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. John:OK, if you've got an iPad, that's what an iPad is already.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm. John:Now, I can't use the iPad as an example in this thought experiment because the iPad runs iOS. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's restricted by the App Store. So that's not a valid comparative. John:So take that off the table. But look at a Microsoft Surface, right? Vic:Yep. John:Microsoft Surface has got a touch screen. You can type on it on a keyboard and you can get a 3G modem and you can use it as a phone. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm.

John:So the only real difference in an Apple laptop is it's not got a touch screen or a 3G modem. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But you could add both if you wanted to. So if you do that, then suddenly it's OK to have an App Store. John:Does that make any sense? Like, it's like just, it doesn't make any sense at all. Vic:Sounds kind of crazy to me, John. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:In some of these cases, the silicon in these machines is identical.

John:Like the iPad, iPad Pros have the same damn chip in it as a Mac, as a MacBook Air does. John:So, like, it's not even the technology underlying it. It's exactly the same tech made by exactly the same company. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's just the software that's written on it is slightly different. That's it. John:When I say slightly, I know it's actually quite different, but that's not the point. John:The point is it is just software. So you cannot justify it based on its utility.

John:It does not make sense. But never mind. It's fine. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I guess I just find the whole thing to be almost bloody minded, to be honest, from Apple. John:And it's disappointing. I am disappointed in Apple. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. John:I think that they're trying to dig their heels into what is a lost cause. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:And they're making themselves look so bad. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And they just need to get over it.

Vic:It's getting hard to see the difference between the two. John:Yeah. Yeah, they are. But... Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:[silence] Vic:I need some of this stuff, man. John:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:A couple of other comments that I've heard around the traps is, you know, like, John:Apple's treating the situation like they're still the underdog. John:I don't know if that's necessarily true.

John:I don't think that they're projecting where the underdog, we're going to fight this thing. John:That's certainly not the way it comes across. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If that's their mindset, I don't know how you can have that mindset John:when you've got trillions of dollars in the bank. John:Because they haven't been a scrappy startup for a very long time. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I don't even think that they're that delusional or that they're that high in their own supply.

Vic:No. John:I don't believe that. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:No, I can't remember which host said this. John:[silence] Vic:I think it was Marco, but it's an entitlement mindset, man. John:Yeah. Vic:This whole thing exists because of us. John:[silence] Vic:So we deserve our pound of flesh for everything that runs through it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's kind of funny, you know, because I was thinking about the... John:There's so many analogies that make this look like an insane conversation.

Vic:Mm-hm. John:Like, Apple has no leg to stand on. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Think about roads. John:Our governments and private companies build roads. John:Okay, there are rules that say what safety features a vehicle has to have. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:There's training about how to drive on those roads, sure. Vic:Mm-hm. John:But ultimately, the government doesn't force you to only buy cars through the government. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You can buy what... Yeah, you can buy...

Vic:Through them, yeah. Vic:They don't get a cut of the cars. John:Well, there's flaws in this analogy because depending upon what country you live in, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you can argue, well, they do have import duties or they do have company taxes and so on. Vic:Well, yeah, I guess that's true. John:But it's not... Yeah, it's not really the same thing. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO]

John:Anyone can... So if I buy a car and it's sanctioned, like, it's legally allowed to be sold in this country John:and I can buy it in this country, you know, brand new, secondhand, third, fourth hand, whatever, John:depending on how much I've got, what sort of car it is, I can drive that on whatever road I want. John:There are no restrictions. John:So it's like the government can't tell me not to drive it on this one particular road

John:because they own the road. You could argue they own all the roads. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It doesn't... It does not make any sense at all. John:The government have no right to tell you what road you are and aren't allowed to drive on John:because the government built the roads for everyone to use. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So if the argument is Apple said, well, we only bought our phones so that Apple users can use them.

John:I guess that's an obvious thing to say, but it's like, yeah, but they bought the phone, they own the phone. John:So you can't tell them they can only run apps that you say they're allowed to run Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. John:because you don't have the right to say that. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. John:If it doesn't run because there's a technical reason it doesn't run, that's not what I'm talking about.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If it could run, but you've just chosen to say, well, I don't like it, so you can't have it, John:that's none of your damn business. John:It's not your phone, Apple, it's my phone. You have zero rights on my phone. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I mean, another part of this Apple situation that really irritates me as well is the music thing. John:It's got the same problem.

John:Like I remember one time a few years ago, I woke up and I went to play a song in Apple Music John:from one of these bands that you will probably never have heard of, Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Australian bands from back in the '80s called 1927. John:So despite the name of the band, none of them were born in 1927. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It doesn't matter.

John:The point is I went to listen to this song and at some point in the prior six months John:since the last time I listened to this band, there was a dispute Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:and the band pulled their music from Apple. John:So now I go to play and I can't play the music. Vic:Right. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That's right. Vic:It's unavailable. Vic:Even though you'd previously added it to your library. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Now people say, well, you're streaming it, you didn't buy it.

Vic:Yep. John:And it's like, well, that's not true. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I actually had a CD of this and I had a CD that I bought back in the '80s John:and what I did is I digitized it and then I uploaded that in through the whole iTunes Match thing Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Mm-hm. John:and something got balked along the way. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I have no idea why, but all I do know is that at some point it preferred streaming.

John:I switched libraries, I switched machines, something lapsed somewhere, something broke somewhere. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I don't honestly know what happened. John:A DRM copy that I could only stream. Vic:And your ripped copy got replaced by, yep. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Another time I went on a flight and I pre-downloaded a whole bunch of music to my phone John:and then Apple had decided and iOS had just decided that because I had only four or five gigabytes Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:of free space left that they would just get rid of a whole bunch of my MP3s that I downloaded Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:specifically because I was going to be on a long flight to the US. John:And it's like, I can't stream because I'm on a plane. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You can't. Vic:And you get on the plane and you're all ready to jam out and there's no tune. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It's stuff like that that really grinds my gears.

John:It is my phone, don't delete my stuff off of it. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'll delete it when I want to. John:And that's my music that I paid for. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You will not just take it away because you, for whatever reason, you've just decided that you should. John:Now, I realize that they're subtly different arguments and there's a lot of nuance there that I'm glossing over, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:but it's symptomatic of the current way of living versus the way we used to, John:which is you go and buy something and it's yours. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I buy my phone, I own it. John:I buy the CD, I own it. John:I can use them whenever I want, however I want because they're mine. John:They don't belong to Apple. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:They don't belong to the artist because I own a copy of the music. John:I can play it when I want. John:I own a phone.

John:I can use it when I want. John:And where things start falling apart is when companies stop realizing that that is what people want. Vic:Yep. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And they start thinking, well, you know, we could do is not you should do. Vic:Yeah. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So, yeah, you could have an app store, but now you become the gatekeeper and everyone hates the gatekeeper John:and you want to set yourself up for failure. Vic:Mm-hm.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And this was always going to happen. John:It was only a matter of time. John:Anyway, so I don't think I've got too much more to say about that. John:So if you want to read the article on tech distortion, there'll be a link in the show notes. John:Knock yourselves out. John:And, yes, I will adjust the numbers and hopefully by the time you read it, John:the numbers will be adjusted and none of that will matter.

John:But there'll be a copy of it cached probably somewhere on the Internet so you can go back and say, Vic:There you go. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:you know, John, there was a time when you were wrong. John:And I'll be like, yeah, I guess. Vic:No. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But, oh, well, I fixed it. Vic:[LAUGH] John:So go on, whatever. Vic:It's gonna be, I won't say exciting, it's gonna be interesting to see how this Vic:thing plays out over the next probably couple of years, I'll bet.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I'm not sure the word "interesting" is the one I'd use. John:I'd say it's going to be farcical to watch, but okay. John:I mean, I don't know. Vic:Well, yeah, that's a good one too. Vic:Entertaining. Vic:[LAUGH] John:I actually don't know if I'm going to have the patience to follow along with this Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because the whole thing just seems so ridiculous. John:The premise is so ridiculous. John:I keep having flashbacks.

Vic:Who's the head of the DOJ these days? John:Oh, I don't know. Vic:I don't even know. John:I don't know. Vic:I was thinking maybe we could get him and Tim Cook to settle this thing with a trial John:Yeah, I was actually thinking, you know, I need to go back to the whole -- Vic:by combat, a la Game of Thrones style. Vic:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Loser goes out the moon door. John:well, geez, that's harsh.

Vic:[LAUGH] John:I was actually thinking, you know, we should go back to the whole Hamilton days Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:because now I've seen Hamilton the musical John:and I understand a little bit more now of American history, Vic:Mm-hm. John:modern history anyway. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, we should do the whole Pistols of Dawn thing John:in the middle of some swamp. Vic:Mm. Vic:[LAUGH] John:And I demand satisfaction or blah, blah, blah, whatever the heck it is.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:But never mind. Vic:That always works out well. John:Yeah, nothing goes wrong. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Whatever. Anyway, it's fine, really. John:So if you want to talk more about this, John:you can reach me on the Fediverse at [email protected] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:or the network at [email protected]. John:If you are enjoying Pragmatic and you'd like to support us John:and keep the show ad-free, you can by becoming a premium supporter.

John:Just visit engineered.network/pragmatic John:to learn how you can help this show to continue to be made. John:Thank you. John:A big thank you to all of our supporters. John:A special thank you to our silver producers, John:Mitch Bilger, Shane O'Neill, Lesley, John:Callan Frodelius-Fujimoto, John:Jared Roman, Joel Maher, John:Katarina Will, Chad Juring, and Ian Gallagher.

John:And an extra special thank you to our gold producer, John:Stephen Bridle, John:and our gold producer known only as R. John:Pragmatic is also a podcasting 2.0 enhanced show. John:And with the right podcast player, John:you'll have episode locations, enhanced chapters, John:and real-time subtitles on selected episodes, John:and you can also stream sats and boost with a message if you like.

John:There's details on how, along with the Boostergram leaderboard, John:for this and all the shows on our website. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:If you'd like to get in touch with Vic, John:what's the best way they can get in touch with you, mate? Vic:Just look for me all over the Internet, just because someone. John:Awesome. Vic:I think the thing you can most reliably find me doing these days is streaming Vic:games sporadically on the Twitch, as we cut someone.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Sporadic twitching. John:That's how we know you're alive. John:Excellent. Vic:Sporadic twitching. John:[laughs] Vic:[LAUGH] John:Oh, my God. Vic:Sporadic twitching. John:There you go. John:No, that is not the show title. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:This is not the episode title. John:Okay. John:Mm. Vic:No. John:No. Vic:I've struck out twice. John:Yep. Vic:Mm-hm. John:That's it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Third one, you're out. John:Okay.

John:Special thank you to our supporters, John:and a big thank you to everyone for listening. John:And as always, thank you, Vic. John:It's always great having you on, mate. John:[no dialogue] Vic:It is always great to be here. Vic:Thank you for having me. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Moving on, and by saying moving on, I haven't got too much else to say. John:I did, however, want to talk to you about, very briefly, John:before we wrap this up, about Doctor Who.

John:And this is gonna be a spoiler warning for John:anyone who hasn't watched the Christmas special, which was four months ago. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And anyone who hasn't watched any of the trailers for John:the forthcoming season, this year in 2024, with the new Doctor. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So if you are one of those people, or if you are someone that does not like John:Doctor Who and wonders why the heck Vic and I love Doctor Who, well, that's fine.

John:It's all good. Vic:Okay. John:All right, so I don't do spoiler horns. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So thoughts and comments? John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Would you like a spoiler sound? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:No, I would not like a spoiler sound. John:This is pragmatic. John:We don't do sounds here, right? Vic:Mm-hm. John:This is chaos. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:We don't do sounds here. Vic:Okay. John:So thoughts on the Christmas special? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Do you have thoughts on the Christmas?

Vic:I didn't think it was terrible. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I didn't think it was my favorite intro to a new Doctor story. John:[LAUGH] Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:That is so delightfully politically correct of you. Vic:I did enjoy it, and I am looking forward to shooting as the Doctor. John:I didn't. John:[LAUGH] John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I liked him. Vic:Some of the writing I thought was kind of weak. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:You think? John:Yes, I would agree with that assessment. Vic:Yeah.

Vic:None of my complaints have to do with him or Ruby, or I can't remember. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I feel terrible. Vic:What's the actress's name playing Ruby? Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I don't remember. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I thought they were fantastic. Vic:I just, I don't think that they had a ton of great material to work with, Vic:which was really ironic because I really felt like RTD kind of knocked it out of John:Yeah, so that was the other thing. Vic:the park with the tenant specials.

Vic:But then maybe he spent everything on those and he needed more time to recoup John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:before they made that Christmas special. Vic:I don't know. John:Yeah. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Like I said, it wasn't terrible. Vic:I did enjoy watching it. Vic:It was a good, fun Doctor Who romp, but I just, Vic:I felt like it wasn't the greatest new Doctor story. John:No, I would echo your sentiments, but I'd be slightly more brutal.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:And I would say it was poorly written. John:It was a bit, how should we say? Vic:Yeah. John:It was almost too childish, as in really, John:Doctor Who has traditionally walked a fine line between being a kids show Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:that's a kids show and being genuinely scary. John:And some of the best Who that you're gonna get is the stuff that is scary, Vic:Right.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:not campy kid stuff that is meant to be cute and John:funny that would make a four year old giggle. John:But no one else is gonna like cringe maybe. Vic:Yeah, I think they do. John:There was too much cringing for me to enjoy that. John:It's like there were moments, and I actually think that the two lead actors, John:actor and actress, I think they've got chemistry, to be honest. John:I actually enjoyed, they do, I think they do.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So I think that they've chosen well. John:I have high hopes for both of them as how they act this season. Vic:Yeah. John:I just freaked out, cuz I'm like, I really hope that RTD brings his game for John:this season in terms of the writing, because that was not a strong start at all. John:That was not good. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:So my son, my oldest son who loves all of the Modern Who, Vic:Yeah.

Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:he's watched almost every episode of Modern Who since 2005. Vic:Mm-hm. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:There were a few minutes left in the episode, he got up and John:walked out of the room. John:He hated it. Vic:He didn't even watch the end. Vic:[LAUGH] John:He hated it. Vic:Yeah. John:He said, no, I can't do it. Vic:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:I just can't, I'm sorry, I'm done. John:I'm out.

John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Some things that I do like about it and the potential for the future season Vic:is while I don't think they nailed it or knocked it out of the park John:Yeah. Vic:in that particular episode, I like the idea of the premise Vic:that we're going to start dabbling into some fantasy, so to speak, Vic:and some supernatural because that's something that, like, I mean, John:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah.

Vic:I don't, what I'm about to say is going to sound like a really weird, Vic:stupid statement, but like Doctor Who always tried to kind of ground itself Vic:in sci-fi reality. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:It wasn't-- there were monsters and there were bad guys, but there were aliens John:Yeah. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:and there was science or pseudoscience behind it all. John:, Vic:It wasn't just pure supernatural, magical fantasy type stuff.

Vic:So I'm interested in-- because I think that opens a lot of new doorways John:and Vic:for a lot of fresh stories and bad guys that we haven't really seen before Vic:in Doctor Who, and I am very excited about that potential. Vic:I don't really like that-- while I really enjoyed the specials John:that's Vic:with David Tennant and Catherine Tate, I don't really like that this Vic:Mavity thing is sticking around, it seems like. John:just silly.

John:Honestly, Vic:But I think that, you know, that's RTD doing RTD. Vic:He wanted to plant a seed that he can run with throughout the season, I guess, John:when Vic:so we'll see how that plays out, but I don't know. Vic:Every time I hear "Mavity," I just like-- I kind of cringe a little. Vic:No, they look pretty exciting. John:I saw the trailers for this upcoming season, they didn't look that bad. John:They looked like, that's not so bad. John:They look good to me, so we'll see.

Vic:Mm-hmm. John:And I'm really, really, really hoping that the Christmas special was just rushed. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:And they didn't, yeah, they just rushed it and it was undercooked. John:I don't know. John:But I wanna circle back to the whole, the three David Tennant specials. John:Cuz I've gotta admit, I thoroughly enjoyed all of them. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:The first one was, I thought, had its moments where it was a little bit sluggish. Vic:That was by far my favorite of the three.

John:But there was so much good, I guess I was just so John:excited to see David Tennant and Catherine Tate back again. John:I was like, the second episode was absolutely fantastic on the edge of. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:Yeah, that was so good. John:It was good classic who, it was, I just thoroughly enjoyed that. Vic:Mm-hmm. Vic:It was just nothing but an hour of sheer delight of David Tennant John:And then the third episode.

John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:and Catherine Tate just doing what they do best John:I know. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:and knocking it out of the park, man. John:Yeah, that was so good. Vic:It was funny, it was creepy, it was-- yeah. John:It was so good. John:It was classic who and I loved it. John:And then. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] John:It was creepy, yeah. John:But then the third episode, I also, Vic:Mm-hmm. Vic:Neil Patrick Harris. John:I'd probably say it was my second favorite episode, was the third one.

John:And as much as the actor's name, I'm feeling bad I didn't take notes on this. John:You'll say his name and I'll know who you mean, John:because he was the guy from Modern Family. John:Thank you, Neil Patrick Harris. Vic:Yeah. John:He, I mean, he, the thing that I loved about his performance Vic:Mm-hmm. John:as the Celestial Toymaker was that he threw absolutely everything into it. Vic:Yeah. Vic:He did. John:Like he did not hold back a single bit.

John:And I love it when actors do that and they can pull it off. John:And he pulled it off, even though there were moments there when he was like Vic:[laughs] John:running around through unit HQ and to Spice Girls, which was just. John:[LAUGH] John:It was a bit much, but honestly, I still thought it was. Vic:Almost as shocking as when we heard Britney Spears in "The End of the World." John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:[laughs] Vic:They played it on the iPod jukebox. John:Yeah, that one. John:That's right.

John:Yeah, that's right. John:Yeah, this is classic Earthrealm music from whatever. John:It was like Toxic by Britney Spears. Vic:[laughs] John:Yeah, but yeah, but like watching him like running around to that and Vic:Mm-hmm. John:choreographed and everything, it was so ridiculous. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:But even though it was so ridiculous, somehow he still pulled it off in a way Vic:Mm-hmm. John:that was, it was both funny and almost a bit scary.

John:It's, it's, yeah, so honestly I have, I have very few complaints about that, John:that episode, but I just preferred the second one better. John:But at the end of it all, the thing, Vic:Yeah. John:the overwhelming feeling I had was, why did they only make three? Vic:Yeah. John:[LAUGH] John:Please, I could have done with some more. John:Yes, they could have and should have. Vic:They could have done a whole season of that as far as I'm concerned. Vic:Tennant's not even my favorite doctor.

John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:He's probably like, I don't know, my second or third favorite doctor, Vic:but I just-- I really enjoyed him in these specials, man. John:Yeah, yeah. Vic:Which I was honestly surprised by, John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:because there wasn't ever a point when I dreaded him coming back in these specials Vic:when they dropped that surprise bomb on us, Vic:which I was completely surprised by. John:Mm. Vic:I was completely out of the spoiler loops. Vic:I didn't see that coming at all.

Vic:But near the end of his original run, John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:I was really kind of ready for him to go and kind of ready to move on, Vic:because I just felt like it was getting to be way too heavy Vic:and way too David Tennant-centric, for lack of a better word. John:Yeah. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:You know, it was too doctor-centric. Vic:You know, his last handful of episodes, he had no regular companions, Vic:and some of those stories weren't the greatest, John:Yeah, that was good.

Vic:although "The Waters of Mars" was fantastic. John:Yeah. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:Yeah. Vic:But once these things got started, I just-- I don't know. Vic:In a lot of ways, he was still Tenn, John:Mm. John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:but in a lot of ways, he was something else, too. Vic:And I really enjoyed the "something else" that he brought to it. Vic:And I enjoyed, you know, Donna once she'd gotten all her memories back John:Mm.

Vic:and she was fully realized again Vic:and the way that character had evolved and grown. Vic:And I just-- I don't-- I've got mixed feelings on the whole. Vic:There's two Doctors out there floating around now, Vic:but I honestly wouldn't complain about a second parallel series John:[BLANK_AUDIO] Vic:about the Doctor and Donna's adventures. John:[LAUGH] Vic:[silence] John:Exactly. John:So, this is the thing that, you know, I mean, I understand that, and Vic:Shudi Gatwa, I think.

John:I don't think it's wrong, and maybe it's just the nostalgia, but that's all there is to it. John:So, I'm gonna mangle this, the new doctor's name. John:Was it Naka, Nakani, Kut, Kut, Shudi, Shudi Gatwa, there we go. Vic:Yeah. John:I mean, he's young, he's bringing a lot of energy. Vic:[silence] John:He reminds me a little bit of Matt Smith in the sort of level of energy, Vic:[silence] John:the kind of youthful sort of energy he's bringing to the role.

John:Which is, don't get me wrong, I think that that is a good thing. John:Whether or not he can pull it off or not, I'm still not sold, but Vic:[silence] John:I will be watching to find out. Vic:Right. John:But it's like, it's not that, because you can't just keep going back to Tenet over and over and over again. John:You can't bring back all the old favorites all the time, nor should you. John:I think Doctor Who's made its success and its longevity is based on the fact that they don't do that.

Vic:No. John:They only bring them together for specials, and maybe that's fine. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:But there was just something about, like, the second and third episodes of that brief three that really, Vic:[silence] John:I actually was mourning the fact that that was the Who that I loved the most. Vic:Yeah. John:You know, like, so from 2005, so the first one, Christopher Eccleston, yes. Vic:[silence] Vic:Eccleston? Vic:Yeah. Yeah.

John:He was amazing. David Tenet was amazing. Matt Smith was amazing. Vic:He was. John:Took me a while to get the hang of Matt Smith, but once I got the hang of him, I loved him. Vic:[silence] John:And then after that, yeah, he's a lot of people's favorites. Vic:He's probably honestly my favorite Doctor. Vic:[laughs] John:A lot of people's favorite, I think. Vic:Yeah. John:And then things got a little bit too heavy too quickly.

Vic:[silence] John:They wanted to break the mold and shake it up a bit for that very first season of Peter Capaldi. Vic:Cabaldi. John:And that turned a lot of people off. They softened him up after that. Vic:[silence] Vic:However, they did introduce Missy, which was fantastic. John:They did, and Missy's awesome, but still. Vic:[silence] Vic:That's the thing. John:And then I felt so frustrated with Jodie Whittaker because the material that they gave her and Shibnall really did, really squandered.

John:They squandered. Vic:Yeah. John:Yeah, she did. Vic:I think she was a little bit of a stick so bad, John:Yeah. Vic:because honestly, I think that given better writings and production, John:Yeah. Vic:I think that she probably could have displaced Matt Smith for me Vic:as my favorite Doctor. John:Yeah. Vic:The energy that she brought to what she had to work with John:Hmm. Yeah. Vic:was pretty fantastic, Vic:considering what she had to work with was poo-poo. Vic:[laughs] Vic:You know?

John:So, I sort of, so having been through the Capaldi roller coaster and then the Jodie Whittaker sort of almost like a stalemate really, Vic:[silence] Vic:They wasted her so bad. John:and it was like her acting talent and what she brought to the role was really undercut by poor writing and just nonsensical stuff. John:They wasted her talent so much. I'm really frustrated with that because she could have done so much more with it. Vic:[silence]

John:But irrespective, it's done now. So, we now move forward and having that brief taste of Tenet for a few episodes just made me realize how much we've lost in Doctor Who over the last six or seven years, maybe 10 years. Vic:Yeah. John:It's like that, that is what I found myself as I was watching those episodes. Vic:[silence] John:I'm like, "Why can't they make more?" And it's like, "Yeah, but they can't just keep going back doing the same thing." Vic:You know what?

John:But it's like, "Yeah, but they used to do it so much better than they have." So, what's going on? John:Hmm. Vic:You know what I'd like to see happen more than anything? John:Yep. Vic:I don't know. Maybe it's possibly already in the works. Vic:I don't know. Vic:Like I said, I don't pay attention to any of the blogs anymore. Vic:I only listen to the Doctor Who podcast when they're doing recaps Vic:when the show is running. John:Mm-hmm. John:Yeah. Vic:I listen to that too.

Vic:Matt Smith was undoubtedly my favorite Doctor, Vic:but my favorite era was the Tenet era. Vic:Because you had this RTD show running Vic:and writing some episodes, Vic:and you had people like Stephen Moffat Vic:and a handful of other really fantastic writers Vic:writing episodes. I'd really like to see Stephen Moffat Vic:come back as a writer. John:Yeah, so would I. John:Yeah. Vic:He wasn't the greatest showrunner in my opinion, John:Yeah. Vic:but I really love...

Vic:I've always loved a good Moffat-written episode. Vic:[silence] John:Well, I mean, he was behind the Weeping Angels, you know, like Blink. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:And he's. John:Mm. Vic:Well, and all the way back to even Season 1, you know, Vic:the Unearthly Child and the Doctor dances and stuff. John:Yeah. John:That's true. Vic:And I think... John:Yeah. John:Silence in the library. Vic:I may be wrong about this, but I think that Vic:the library episode, I think, was him.

Vic:You know, when we get introduced to River Song? John:Yeah. Vic:Yeah. And it just... John:Yeah, or Riverstone was his, his, yeah. Vic:So, so many great episodes came from his mind. John:Mm. Vic:And now that they're dabbling into Vic:the fantasy and the magical and that type of element, Vic:he's got a whole fresh new palette he could work with. Vic:[laughs] John:Yeah, well, potentially. I guess we'll see.

Vic:[silence] John:But in any case, at the moment, that was all I really wanted to talk about. John:I, I am, I'm nervous about the new season, but I am still looking forward to it. John:I do, I want to give, I want to give it the benefit of the doubt and see if they can turn this around. John:So, they've got, they've got good chemistry. John:He's bringing a lot of youthful energy to the role, which is great. Vic:Mm-hmm. John:And honestly, I'm, I'm curious to see where it goes.

Vic:[silence] John:I just hope that the RTD and his writing, and as a showrunner, does a better job than the last bloke. Vic:Yeah. John:It's hard, hard to do worse. John:Anyway. John:All right, so. Vic:Yeah. I really honestly... Vic:It is.