Hi! Welcome to the Poultry Keepers Podcast. I'm Rip Stalvey, and together with Mandelyn Royal and John Gunterman, we're your co hosts for this show, and it's our mission to help you have a happy, healthy, and productive flock. Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us here on Poultry Keepers 360 Live. We have Jeff here. I'm here. Kerry's off celebrating tonight's, or today's, his birthday, and we have a special guest.
Jessica Watson is here, and she's going to be talking to us about her shamos, and these are magnificent birds. Coming up in just a few seconds. We're going to dive into it. Hang on. I hope you enjoyed that little seven second musical
interlude. That was nice. That was nice. I look forward to it on the podcast too. It gives a little burst of joy. I know what's coming. Chicken talk.
Jessica, first question, and I get asked this a good bit. Is it shammo?
Oh man, when I was at the national, I didn't even know there were so many ways people could say this. It's a very simple word, but as far as I understand, it is shammo.
I told them right.
Yep. And then I found out that people say Malay and Malay. I was like, Oh man, you can just pronounce real simple, short words, all kinds of ways.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I say shammo.
You guys ready to get started? We're gonna have fun tonight, by the way. We're gonna have fun. Let's start. We've got some slides here, but let's talk about where shammos are from.
Where shammos are from. This is interesting. This is not knowledge that is my own research, but other people have put in the time. To figure this out. And Japan specifically, they did a gene mapping project and found two main populations of shamos that exist in Japan and originally came there through these different trade routes from Thailand. And the shamos that came there from Thailand didn't look like our modern shamos.
But the Japanese really expert level breeders of all of their livestock and selected for this real upright bird. And then you have the shamo we see today, which has been around for centuries. Which is pretty cool.
They are indeed. And until you have seen one in person, folks, you really can't appreciate. They are just magnificent, impressive. I don't have enough adjectives to really describe them all.
They are very impressive. And, when I here, I'm just, I'm going to move on and let you know how I got into this breed. Go for it. Go for it. It's a good lead in because I was interested in the breed and then went to seek it out and acquired what I thought was my first shammo's. Knowing very little and I thought what I had was magnificent. And then as I dove further into researching this bird, I fairly quickly realized that's not what I had at all.
And that shammels were actually much, much bigger bird, much more magnificent bird than what I had, which was probably something, some a seal. Mixed long leg, upright. I thought, yep, this is it. I've really done something. I found the shamo. I had not.
Jessica, you were talking about how large they are.
Yeah.
It's one of those few birds that a person could kneel down and almost be looking eye to eye with the bird.
Oh, for sure. Yes. And I'm not very tall. I'm 5'4 and because they are. What's the word? They're excitable birds. You have to be cautious around them. So when I handle them, I do have to be careful because if I carry this 10 pound, 13 pound bird on my hip, he's at eye level with me, which is not a great place for them to be, for any bird to be, is right at eye level.
Yeah, once I really realized, Oh. And then I was like, wow, I'm going to level up another 50 percent and this is an even bigger bird. But I'm almost glad that was my introduction because, I had the time to mentally prepare that they only get bigger from there.
They really
do.
Yeah.
It's so what'd you do with your original A cells?
So yeah, the original birds I I decided to track down a legitimate shamo breeder. And he's a couple of generations into Oriental game fowl. So he was able to look at the pictures I sent him of my birds in a very kind way, tell me why they were not shamos at all. And then, show me comparisons of his birds. And. I kept these birds for a while just as pets because they're really interesting and then just pass them along.
Some people just collect birds to collect birds, and so I passed them along to somebody who had the space and energy to keep them, and then got my first shamo hatching eggs, was actually how I started. I would not have thought that. I know, and it's just really difficult to get a hold of these birds, and when you want something, and you want it now, you want it now. Sometimes that's the way you have to go.
And I knew that I was getting them from a reliable breeder who'd been working with this breed for a long time. But admittedly, I am still, you still have to pull out a lot of defects when you start with hatching eggs. It's a longer journey.
Oh, sure it is. What are some of the traits of shammoes, height, we've talked about a little bit, weight, you've alluded to, but
yes so that high station, which the high station when you look at a bird, a high station is going to be the legs are almost directly under The head and neck of that bird. They're towards the front of the body. And then in game foul, you can have all three. You can have high, medium or low, and a medium is going to be the legs more balanced in the middle of the body. And then low is going to be the legs a little behind and a lot of body out front.
So that's the basic look, but then in the details, the they should have really the slope from their head all the way down through the end of their tail. It should look like a nice, even ski slope kind of line. The The tail angle should be low and anything above horizontal is considered a defect and like a disqualification if you're going to show.
Yeah.
So that's my number one.
Sue Dobson had a question about what are they mainly used for? Decorative meat or guard dogs?
Guard dogs. They are not I find that my American game are actually more assertive around the yard as far as chasing things off and stuff like that. They're definitely a beautiful decorative bird, except for having them in your yard. Is quite complicated. We do utilize our culls for meat that's new this year. I've not done that before, but I've come to the point where I don't feel comfortable letting Birds with defects go to pass on their traits that I find unacceptable.
So that's a new level for me.
How do they taste though? Have you figured out how to prepare them?
Yeah. So it's a lean, obviously a really lean bird, but even in the standard they do mention their meat qualities, their body of the bird. Should be meaty. They're muscular bird. But in like Asian cuisine and stuff, they're often cooked as a whole body bird in broth, and then the meat is picked off and then put into whatever this large soup dish is. So by design, that works out really well because they're such a low fat bird. You wouldn't want to roast them to death.
We've got some slides here and I guess we just been sitting here talking and having a good time, but why don't we jump into the slides and
see
what you sent us, just some good stuff.
Ah, some colors. This is interesting too. These are not my birds, but it's interesting to note because it's not something that the standard mentions, even though black breasted red, this pullet hen here on the right is considered black breasted red but in the standard, the art makes it look like the bird should be, like A black breasted red you'd see in an Old English game, but that actually is not true to the breed. So all of the Oriental game are, their colors are built on Wheaton.
So the black breasted red in a shamo is actually a cinnamon Wheaton color, or like a smutty kind of Wheaton color. And then this other stag is dark. And the dark variety in Shammo is the same as in the Cornish. And, that's, I'm very interested in working with the dark variety. And, as far as I can tell, they are Perhaps functionally extinct in this country. I see images of them at exhibitions in Europe and in Germany, but I can't find anybody who keeps dark shamos.
I have seen a lot of oriental games in Germany. I haven't been there, but just the photos I've seen, I know they tend to like those.
Yes. And there's they say that the European style of shamo differs from the traditional Japanese style of shamo, which is probably true and probably the American variety does too, but we all have our own standards. So that's,
Each country seems to like to put their own little twist on a breed.
Exactly. And then, of course, here, there's a, just a cuckoo variety that's, I don't believe, can be built on wheat. And I could be wrong. Color genetics are not my thing. I am sure that color was brought in and then they just bred back and brought them back to the right type. But white is an accepted variety. Also, never seen anybody exhibit a white shammo at a show. Never seen anybody exhibit a black shammo at a show. I've never really seen much but Wheaton out there. That's all I have
ever encountered.
Yep.
Some of them, the females would be lighter, some of them would be darker. But we've got a question here from Susan Hughes wants to know, do they have the longer necks to help them reach their long bodies? If not, then why the long necks?
Their original purpose, by design was for fighting, for cockfighting. And, proportionately, the neck and the body and the legs are all basically in thirds, which if you look at these pictures, you can see that they are even in that way. And they're heavy body fighting. birds. So there don't get airborne, say an American game foul type of, or old English game would do. So they actually use their necks in combat. And that was what the original purpose of that long neck is for.
So they have this high body, big neck, and they can see over their opponents. Now it's just for unusual looks and they can reach every part of their body for convenience.
Okay, let's see.
Rebecca, or Jessica, have you kept one, what's your oldest male? What do they peak out as far as weight? In the standard, what would be the high end expectation? My oldest
male is four, four years old and he's 13 pounds. That's probably
where he'll stop. He's fully matured. Okay.
Yep. The standard And it's, I think the same, I know it's the same in Japan, I'm not sure how it is in Europe, but the standard will say a weight, but it's that and up, like that's supposed to be the minimum weight. So I think our standard says 11 pounds, but that's considered like the minimum.
So the one that you won with was a cockerel, when you came to Ohio Nationals last year? So is that a one year old or,
no, he was only seven months old. He changed immensely. That was young, but the, I had a little bit, but the problem with these birds is they're very difficult to keep in condition after that point. If you're, unless maybe you're just not going to breed the bird and your only goal is to keep the bird in condition, these hard feathered birds are really difficult to maintain.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
It's almost like you just have to have a new season of birds if you want to show them.
Yeah, but I mean your cockerel is seven months old, he had to weigh close to eight pounds, right?
He was big boy.
Yeah, he was,
that's a big bird.
Yeah, that's you're talking seven months old and he was. Oh, yeah,
so here's,
this is
an example of the beginnings of what happens, and this is a mystery to me, something I'm really interested in decoding. The feather destruction that seems to happen with shams and I hear from other breeders they have this problem too, down the neck especially and then where you see in this picture. And it gets bad. It gets really bad. And I've even bought a camera. I have yet to see one of their pen mates, a female bird, doing this to them, and I've yet to see them doing it to themselves.
So it truly is a mystery.
I have seen that in other breeds too dark Cornish will do that. Large fowl, modern games will do that. Not to the extent that Shama does, but I have seen it before, yeah.
And what's the reasoning?
Are they doing it to themselves or is it another bird doing it?
No, I've seen it in Cornish males who were cooped by themselves for a long time.
So this bird had it the worst because he had swelling and just, the follicles, everything just looked awful on this bird. And then when he molted back out, You would think if he was doing it to himself or the females were doing it, it would, the cycle would repeat immediately, but that's not the case. Now he's in excellent feather.
Like me going bald, I think, to some extent.
So it's interesting. It's one of those things. It's can I select a way from this, but I don't know yet.
So is it a feather deficiency? Do you feel that it's the feather weakness or some sort of a deficiency nutritionally because you use the term hard feathered. I'm just wondering. You and I have been working together to try and dial this in, right? And they've come a long way. I'm not going to, I am not a genius at Shamo nutrition. I'm doing the best I can based on the information I can find.
So I'm just wondering, we've been talking about in previous shows using the cysteine amino acid, which goes the next step further. Sure. Because when they analyze a feather cysteine is the highest amino acid found in feathers, right? So I'm just wondering if that's something that you and I need to talk about, outside the show, but I'm wondering if that's the next level to try and correct this.
I'm all for, I'm all for it. Trying.
Okay. I don't know. And seeing if
there's a change.
I'm learning. And so I don't know.
Shaggy says he's totally, he says kneading out, I think he means nerding out. That this is awesome. And I agree, Shae. Whether you're needing or nerding, I agree with you.
Yeah, I'm glad because I don't know many people who can nerd out on Shammo. So if we can all meet in one place, one time, this is great.
I'm going to be in Ohio again this fall, make sure you stop by and spend some time. Yep.
I won't be so starstruck this time. Now we have a little bit of rapport.
I put my pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else.
And he's trying to talk me into going too. So I may, I don't know.
Jessica, you need to help us convince Rip. He needs to be there at the table with me and Gary.
I want to be there. It's will my back let me be there. That's a 64,
I come from the badger state, so I know how to badger somebody and get my, get it done.
I'm outnumbered before I even get started. Thank you so much, Jeff. What's in this picture, Jessica? Let's get off this.
Oh, okay. Let's get on with it. This is a picture of one of my pens, and it leads into just a couple different things. One is I learned to not overthink the nest box. You can overthink things with these birds because of their unique size. When they're kept in trios, females are ruthless, so you really don't want to create too many areas a bird can get trapped. So I use feed bags.
Like this, under this platform, and if they have to, they can run straight out of the feed bags like a dog door, like there's not a three sided trapped area in there that a bird can get stuck in, they really can be harsh with each other. And then I utilize a platform instead of a perch because of our winters, and they don't have feathers. It's on their whole front is bare. So they can get down into shavings or chopped straw or something.
I use a radiant heater over the top when it gets really subzero out and I have had no issues. Nothing with frostbite. I have, they've just been fine like this.
That's cool. Japan where they come from gets cold as well. So you would think, yeah, you would think depending on, there's a large area of Japan that. That experience is temperatures, probably not Wisconsin cold, right? They have snow and they have colder weather and things like that. So
Monica says, wow, bigger than my white Chinese geese. And I thought the geese were big.
I think geese are so intriguing to me and that would be such an interesting bird. But then I picture a shamo meeting a goose and don't know if I want to. Do that.
That could not be a fun thing.
That could not be a fun thing. An eye level friend or enemy. So yeah, this is a setup. It's pretty simple. I think that the birds definitely need to be able to pop their wings. They need to be able to stand in their own pen. They love to do that. They are show off birds. And when I put them in smaller pens or drop pens that are lower, they don't do that. They don't flap, they don't pop their wings, don't utilize their muscles like they should. So I like to keep the platform off the ground.
So they're constantly using their legs to get up and down. I don't think everyone does this, but in my experience, it's pretty important that they use all of this muscular body that God gave them. If you're just going to keep them penned in something small, cause you like to look at them, it's really not fair to the bird.
Before you move on, what's the height of that pen, Rip you would know,
what's the inside
height of those large pens, just so people get a he's at the, this is the cockerel, and he's
around 30, 32 inches,
he's not at the top, so if you look at this picture on the right, I have four inch blocks under this pen, and then he's at the top these pens do not fit the birds, and if you want to exhibit the birds, they have to be able to stand appropriately and pose, or else, what's the point? I bring these blocks. with me. And that in itself, because the cage isn't quite as stable. I take zip ties and make sure it's attached to the cage next to it. So he doesn't accidentally shove it off the table.
They need turkey cages, truly.
They really do.
Or
even then is it tall enough, right?
Not really.
Because of how they stand, they actually stand taller than most turkeys.
Yeah.
A turkey doesn't always have its head erect standing in this position, so
These birds have a So you're talking
Yeah.
Go ahead, Joe.
Thirty Sorry. You need 36 inches, is what you're
Yep.
Rip's saying it's a 32 inch pen. You put a four inch block in there, and his head is still just about touching. And this is the cutthroat, right?
And this is the cockerel. And if you don't spend any time with the bird in a smaller cage like this, you're going to put them in something small and they're going to crouch constantly because they're not used to having their comb almost rubbing the top. So that's an important part too. Getting them in and out of this door is almost a joke. I look both ways and make sure no one's watching. This is going to be a scene every time it's a scene. You just can't. I can only
imagine. Yeah,
you can't practice that enough.
These birds have such a unique, tall, upright stance. If you're not careful, you can really cause that crouch and it just throws off the whole body type to them.
Oh yeah, the whole vibe is there. They really have to be proud. That's who they are.
How tall is your four year old male?
33 inches.
Really?
Yes. He's huge. He's really huge. You
just, you think about a yardstick and he's basically a yardstick tall.
He's basically a yardstick tall. And this is him on the right here at five months old. Wow. This is that same bird. And Then, this is just a contrast, these two, these are two different birds I preferred the bird on the left, greatly, for a multitude of reasons. And he was aggressive towards people, which we call being a man fighter. And it was not a joke. It was, you open the door to his pen and he was on you. Or if you thought I have my little rake and he'll stay back.
As soon as you would turn your back, he would be on you. And. I think that it's important that people recognize that if you're interested in getting into the breed, it's not a breed that you can be careless with children around. They're very big, they're very powerful, and as a young cockerel is coming into sexual maturity it doesn't matter how sweet they were as chicks, they're still a big, capable bird. So you have to, plan for that.
Realizing that the genetics were actually honed in on a hundred generations ago or whatever, these birds were bred for fighting, right? So they're going to have an aggression level and that's part of the breed. So don't get these assuming that they're docile and you're going to hold them and, you can. They're just, yes, they're still the game bird.
This photo on the left, people talk about, oh, he looks like he's smiling. Oh, he's your best friend. This bird gave me a black eye one day, and it was not a joke. And I made a choice, watching that his behavior was not right. He was not in his pen at dusk, and he was acting strange. I have no idea. Maybe a hawk eye. I have no idea what happened, but I chose to go in there with him acting that way.
And instead of just moving him into his pen, I chose to pick him up and he is at eye height and he reacted. And he's a nice bird. He's never done anything aggressive, but it is just the fact that you're dealing with a very large animal who is, dialed in to be precise when they strike or do anything like that. They're, it's not I don't even know. I feel like most roosters are a little intimidating when they want to attack, we're not talking a bantam rooster here.
This goes to a new level, right? It's, and there's less fat and they're way more muscular, right? And their muscles were, their body conformation, again, was selected and bred for a purpose, right? For a very long time, they're just. Yeah, very muscular, very athletic. It's what makes them
really cool. And so now I, I take extra precautions to, I, I pay attention to his behavior. I don't ignore his behavior and I don't hold him at eye level because it's just an accident waiting to happen. So these are two chicks again, because they're so slow to mature and our shows up here don't start until September I have to hatch really early. Swipers in the house.
Which is another thing that we're hoping if we get this micro grant, or if we don't, we have a long term plan to build out a room for hatching. Mandelyn Royal, she talks about her hatching room and I'm just very envious of that.
Yeah, it's nice. And I want to point out something here about these chicks. And I don't know, there's probably some viewers that have not had any experience with a Wheaton color pattern. And it can really throw you off when they hatch because the chicks are yellow, solid yellow, no marks, no stripes, no nothing, just a yellow chick. But you can sex them as soon as they start feathering out because the male on the right is going to have darker feathers than the pullet on the left.
Yes, always very impatient for the, especially the shoulders to start pushing out. Cause at the very beginning, you're It's real tricky to tell. You're like, Oh, is it this, is it that? But as soon as those shoulders start pushing through and then you know for sure.
I do see some white chicks and, so that would be silver wheaton and some yellow chicks and this next year I want to get better at my Just documenting what that becomes, because as they go through getting their adult feathers, sometimes you'll still stay with a black neck for a real long time, all those different things. Yeah.
Silver Wheaton is a pretty color pattern to me.
Yes. I think those are the ones that really pop early on. The color's great. So this is an eye
opener here. Let me tell you folks.
This is a three week difference. So this is because I set my eggs. I only have a small incubator right now. And so I set my eggs at 21 days and then I set another batch of eggs. And then, so this is just three weeks. This is how fast these birds grow. Yeah. It's really fascinating. And that they stand like this from the start. From the start, they have this little attitude, and they run right up to you in the brooder. Boom. They want to know, why are you here?
My cat will sit, and with her little paw, and they'll go right at her little paw. Boom. No fear of the murder mittens. Yes. Katie and I talk a lot about the, yeah. Is it a boy? Is it a girl? Hour by hour. What do you think now?
Y'all are bad.
Yeah.
Thank you for joining us this week. And before you go, make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they're released, and they're released every Tuesday. And if you're enjoying this podcast, we'd like to ask you to drop us an email at poultrykeeperspodcast at gmail com and share your thoughts about the show. Thank you again for joining us for this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast. We'll see you next week.