I'm just going to try to replicate Eric's. Hi everyone. Welcome to Potluck Food Talks. As you can hear from my voice, this week it's not Eric. Eric is our long lost son. He's somewhere in Asia, Singapore, Malaysia. I have no idea where he's at. So he gave us the duty and the task to record an episode without him. And Phil, I think we're going to manage pretty well without him. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, probably better to be honest, you know.
We all knew that this was going to happen at some point that we'd have to, after a few months of absence, you know, go and rescue him from like an opium dam in Singapore harbors. From the cold Berlin, Eric, I hope you're eating delicious food. I hate all the posts that you're posting online with all those delicious things that you're putting in your mouth. But yeah, let's let's do a show. This week's episode, I'm going to talk a little bit to Phil for the people who don't know. I'm Xander.
I produced the show, I edit the show, and I have to listen to these two guys talking every week and cutting out all the nonsense that they say. But I'm super happy to have the opportunity to talk to Phil one on one, because in my opinion, he's an extremely talented chef. He's been doing this forever. He's been in some of the most exciting restaurants and even one of the most legendary restaurants in the world. And I can relate because my job also is very, you know, food related.
I do commercials for food, for big food brands. So yeah, at some point we both decided that food was more or less our vocation. But I want to ask you, Phil, like when did you realize that, you know, like how they say like find something that you love and let it kill you? So when did you realize that food was your poison and that you wanted to become someone who did food rather than being a lawyer or an accountant? Yeah, it was pretty it was pretty early on for me.
I made the decision when I was about like 15 and I was like dead set on it. And it was like there were several factors like playing into it. I come from a family that like is very passionate about cooking. So I grew up with food and cooking and going out to eat being like a very important part of everyday life, you know, like when we were having breakfast, we talk about what we should have for lunch and for dinner, you know.
And so there was a very, there was just a very, just a very natural love for it. It was like very ingrained and we used to go to markets and, you know, to like small suppliers. We were also kind of in a little bit of a rural area in Spain. And so that fascinated me as a kid straight away.
I always like used to love and enjoy also kind of like moving through the seasons and like being excited, just kind of like how you're excited for Christmas that you're like excited for autumn or for summer or like for whatever, you know, because like new like products would come. And then I was kind of like, I don't know, I was really drawn to theater for a long time. And then I started cooking by myself more and more when I was sort of like 12, like, you know, 11, 12.
What do you mean with theater? That you like, you, you wanted to become an actor or what? Yeah. For a long time, I thought I was going to study drama because I went to a British school also. Oh, okay. And not necessarily become an actor, but just work in theater. I don't know, because I really saw myself there and I was really into music and all those sorts of things. Cause I wanted to do something sort of something artsy.
And but then I started cooking more and more at home and, and I was really, really enjoying it. And I got into watching cooking shows more and more. Back then it was like, you know, the Jamie Oliver shows when back when Jamie was still good, you know. There was a time when Jamie was really good. Now he's gotten kind of bananas, you know.
But do you think growing up as a kid being introduced to food, like being exposed to markets to like actually having vegetables in your hand, trying out different flavors, do you think that it is essential for someone to be raised eating a certain variety of foods to become interested in and like eating and eating experiences? No, not at all. I think there's like, there's that's like, and there's also the complete opposite.
You know, I feel that I know some people that have like grown up in a family where there wasn't like a very big cooking culture, where there was a lot of like instant meals and bar and something, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. But then like, if you have a desire for something else, you know, and you grow up in that environment, you have to like the, the desire to break out of that, you know, and then you chase the complete opposite, right?
Like kids that grow up in a very conservative households that then just go and, you know, go a little bit nuts and go to punk rock concerts. That sort of stuff, you know, or the complete opposite, you know, people that grow up in a very messy household and then grow up to be super, you know, neat and tidy and clean and they don't want anything, anything. No, for sure. Yeah. But for me, it was like that and I really loved it.
And then I read, you know, I mean, I was, I was very, I was a very rebellious teenager and then I read Anthony Bourdain's kitchen confidentials. And I think the, it was, and that really gripped me also. I don't want to say that that's what made me become a chef because I can actually really tell you what made me decide to become a chef, but that all kind of like got me into it to the idea of sort of like, okay, being a chef might be like really cool. You know, I can work in food.
I can work anywhere in the world. I can travel, you know, Kind of like that, that pirate spirit of like whoever cooks, whoever can provide for people, you can do it anywhere and you can do it your way and you can like not give a fuck about anything because now the kitchen is sort of like, it's sort of a unique environment where we're like, it's just different than the rest of the world. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was a huge aspect for me as well.
I was like really sort of like freedom seeking child, you know, like I really wanted to kind of break out and just live, you know, and do it all and travel and yeah. But then actually what really made me decide to become chef where I really made the decision because I was thinking about it a lot and I was really unsure because I also had this pressure that I wanted to start as young as possible.
I didn't want to and I wasn't sure whether I wanted to finish the last two years of high school or whether I just wanted to go after my, what you call it, in the British system, it's the GCSEs. Yeah, basically like a pre high school or like a thing where you have a certain high school degree, but not at the academic level, something like that. Yeah, exactly. And I was very much into Buddhism and like Zen, you know, Zen philosophy. And you know, I still am.
And the idea of doing something professionally where I could have a closed cycle every day and every day I would go into work and I would make something with my hands starting from zero and improving myself every day, like bit by bit, by bit, by bit. And then starting that all again. And it's like gone because you make, you make a plate of food, somebody eats it, it's gone, you know, no matter how much time you spend doing it.
You know, if you spend two months painting a picture, you know, it's there and it remains there. But like with a plate of food, it's gone. And that's kind of like weird and frustrating because you put so much work into it, but it's also very nice. And only one person gets to enjoy that one plate. No, it's not like you can have a thousand people all, you know, trying out that one thing that you did.
If you want a thousand people to enjoy your creation, you will have to replicate it a thousand times and a thousand times in the same quality. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's also the acceptance of imperfection, you know, that it's like you try to get it perfect with the painting. You can always go like a little bit here, a little bit there. I guess there's also an acceptance of imperfection because you can over paint the painting, right?
But I'm sure it's the same with like editing, editing film, you know, sort of like a little bit here, a little bit there and what about this and what about that? And then if you don't stop, it's just like a whole big mess, right? For sure. I mean, like there are so many different art forms where you can edit it forever. Like writing, making a film, but food, you know, once you start cooking it, it also starts dying. So there's a limited time that you can like prepare something.
Obviously, if you, you know, like we were doing the spice rub for the live show for the sandwiches and I remember you adding stuff and adding stuff and, you know, like kind of like getting closer to what you wanted to do. And it was like a longer process of trial and error until you got it right. But I guess when you're fileting a fish, you know, what's cut, it's cut. You know, it's done.
You know, if you cut it like a donkey, like Gordon Ramsay would say, it's, you know, you have to either get a new fish or see what you do with that, you know, ugly piece of fish that you just sliced. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's actually a really good example because you only get one cut, right? And then it's never going to be perfect, you know, and that idea of like being able to do that every day and also the like never ending like aspect of it. That really appeals to me as a teenager.
And then I decided to drop out of high school and move to Berlin and just start cooking, you know. Is there any particular eating experience that made you go, okay, wow, like, like I get it. Like I know what food can be now. Is there, was there a restaurant, a dish as a kid, like eating some sort of food? Like was there any flavor adventure that you had that you still remember that was the one was like, okay, this is what I want to do for people. What I'm feeling right now, I want to replicate.
Not really. I mean, I was, like I said, I was very, very fortunate. Like my family cooked really amazing. Like my grandma was an amazing chef at home. You know, my parents, like they cooked really great food, especially like Italian food. And it was just like downright delicious, you know. And then my grandparents, they spent a long time in Asia. So especially Japan. So you know, we used to have like tea time at our house, like on the weekends and drink like Japanese green tea.
And so I got introduced to all these like different, you know, cultural aspects and it made me really sort of like, I really, you know, enjoyed it. And you know, we sort of used to go out and eat, you know, like I was eating sushi as a kid and go to like sukiyaki restaurants and stuff like that. And was exposed to it really early on and this like magic of like what food is, you know, tied in with sort of like cultural identity over the world. Like I just like fascinated me.
Buses, you know, traveling around the world, working in different places, learning a lot, looking in hindsight. Was it what you were expecting, you know, when you decided as a 15 year old kid to start this whole thing? Yeah, pretty much. To be honest with you, like, yeah, I mean, I said it earlier, like I was, I was very fortunate, you know, I started very young and I did a lot of the things that I was like dreaming of doing like a very early stage.
I mean, I didn't, I didn't start in like a shitty kitchen. Like I, I started in a shitty place, you know, in a very good kitchen. But yeah, I was like, I was very driven and very determined. And like when I got to Berlin, I just wrote to like the most, the most accoladed restaurant here and just kept, it was a two Michelin star restaurant here in the center of the city, like very French. And you were like 16, 17, something like that, right? I think it was 15 actually.
And I think it was 15 on the verge of 16. On the verge of 16. Yeah. Crazy. But that's cool. You know, it's like a lot of people that I talk about, they say like, dude, I envy people who know what they want to do. And obviously at 15, if you're able to map out your life and you say like, okay, this is my goal. This is what I want to do. Um, then it's like great.
Cause you can just look up for the best restaurants and write a million emails until like the best restaurants accept you or how was it for you? Yeah, for sure. And that's what it was like for me. You know, I was like very, because I kind of like, I read like certain things and I was kind of into the world already. I was very prepared for being sort of like, um, right. It's going to be really tough. It's going to be really difficult.
So like I went to that restaurant and part of a big, huge luxury hotel and I showed up and I said, I'd like to speak to the head chef and the head chef wasn't there. And it was sort of like, yeah, we can give a message to him. You know, it's, I was like, no, I'd like to speak to him personally. And I just kept showing up like every day for like two weeks until he was there, you know, in hindsight. I know now that he was there like once a month and soon, yeah, I never, but yeah.
And I introduced myself to them and he said, all right, come by. And I started there just kind of like, you know, just washing dishes and cleaning and like working in like the staff kitchen, like for the staff food and stuff. I didn't get to like touch anything for the first couple of months, but I was just happy to be there. And I was just like really determined to work hard. But like, did you train yourself?
Did you just like go to the market and buy a bunch of chicken and like learn how to de-bone a chicken when you were 15 or did you just say, okay, I want to learn. And you just went to a restaurant and said, teach me. I mean, I, I think I knew like quite a lot already when I was like, when I started, I mean, I didn't have the ability to do a lot of things, but I knew how to de-bone a chicken like more or less, right? No, like, it's not like I've never seen this before. What do I do? You know?
And you know, like also like basic cooking terms. I read like a lot of cookbooks and I watched a lot of stuff and like, I knew what a bechamel was and what a roux is, you know, like nowadays, you know, I talk to people that work in a, like I don't want to say chefs, but like people that work in kitchens and I'm, you know, they don't know these terms. I'm not saying that you should be like a nerd and stuff, but it's sort of like, well, it's like basics, you know, it's like very, very basic stuff.
And I knew all of that, like the model sources and I knew what dashi was. And you know, I was just very interested and I like wanted to absorb knowledge and I did that before. So I feel like I was at a good spot when I started where I wasn't at a good spot was kind of like my, not my attitude, but like my ability to, I had a hard time being this sort of like, this is a lot of unfair treatment in these sorts of kitchens, especially back in the day, you know?
And in the very beginning, because I also went to a very, very tough restaurant at the beginning, you know, I was really sort of like, it was a hard time for me. Cause I wanted to, I wanted to work hard and I was really passionate, but at the same time, you know, like everybody's super shit to you and you're like, it really kind of puts you down. Do you still have any, you know, do you still have idols?
Are there people that you, you know, idolized until a certain point, until you didn't anymore, which I also think is something very common. What's, what's your relation to, you know, your heroes and idols? You know, they say, they say never meet your heroes. I think that's, I, I didn't really like think much of that saying until like it was, it happened to me and it happened to me a few times.
It's already, I don't know, like I'd already want to drop names, you know, but you know, there are, you know, chefs that I really idolized. They were like these mythical, you know, beings, you know, these like master craftsman and artists and, and, um, I would like read, you know, what they've done and like looked it up and be super inspired by them.
And there's a one example of this, like a very, very famous, uh, free mission star chef in Paris that I just found absolutely amazing, you know, for years and years and years. And, um, and then at some point I went there and I ate there and I met him and I was incredibly disappointed because of many reasons. Um, I have like for many reasons, like not necessarily because of like the, that the food was bad, but it was like, yeah, it's just never meet your heroes.
You know, like it's also not their fault. You know, they can't live up to what you, what you imagined them to be like. You don't know them. Okay. But it was more or less like, like you went there and you actually saw the real thing and you were disappointed because you were expecting more, or is it because I don't know their attitude, their approach?
There was, there was a situation that was just like disappointing to me, you know, like, um, like we had a conversation and he kind of made me like a promise and then he didn't deliver the promise and, and I was just like very let down, you know, can you say what that promise was? Basically I brought him a gift, uh, to the restaurant as you sometimes do, you know, like, but like a bottle of wine or something like that. I brought him some like homemade wild rose vinegar from England.
So like forage wild roses, like preserve and vinegar homemade as in made by you or as in like you knew someone who made really good, why rose vinegar isn't made by me. Okay. Nice. And then like foraged and made by me, you know, um, with like rose dips and like rose petals and like a nice little glass bottle. And he was like, oh wow, thank you so much. And then he was like, I'm going to make something special with this for you today. And I was like, oh wow. You know, like I didn't expect that.
I just wanted to bring like a little something, you know, and then we went for the meal and uh, you know, he didn't and uh, it just kind of put like the stamp not part from the fact that service, like the front of house treated us really, really poorly. Oh really? Even though you were sort of like a guest that I don't know, like, like how do you, how did you connect with them?
Like how did you, you know, it's not, I guess it's not normal that you go to a restaurant of that caliber and have a direct meeting with the chefs. Like how did, how did that come about? Um, no there it's actually relatively normal. Okay. That it greets the guests. He has a little conversation with them. And so it was the mixture of that's the, you know, the front of house treating us really poorly and um, and then the food being like also incredibly expensive, you know, it was good.
There was some highlights that I still remember, but it wasn't like, um, some things were really good and then other things were like, all right. But that's Phil, that's because you became so good that, you know, you eat this and you go like, I could have done this better. No, it's not, it's not about that.
But if you, if you pay like 500 quid per person, then like it needs to be like exceptional because that's the thing also with like these fine dining places that like, I feel like it often really takes away from food because you could do something and be amazing, but you charge somebody 500 quid for it and they're going to look at it with a very critical eye and like already that's why I don't like these like high money places anymore, you know, because it takes away so much of the enjoyment.
You know, maybe it's just cause I'm poor, right? But like, but I don't know, you know, because it's like, and nobody can tell me, oh yeah, but it costs that much to make it. No, it doesn't. It really doesn't. You know, it absolutely doesn't. It's just the name and everything and blah. And um, but yeah. And then, you know, I went out and he was like, all right, see ya. And I went out and I was just kind of like, this was just a really kind of shitty experience.
But I know for a fact that you have very high standards and um, I mean, you are now head chef or have been a head chef in various places. And obviously you bring your own philosophy and your style and you know, way of doing things like a way of working with your team and a way of, let's say a vision of what you want to present to the guests. Talk a little bit about that. Like, what's your approach as a head chef? You know, when designing a culinary experience for a guest in your restaurant.
Okay. Um, so, um, I mean, that's, that's changed a lot over, um, over the last years for sure. Um, I mean, with in terms of sort of like the standards that I, that I have in the kitchen or with a team, um, and the culinary experience that, um, that the guests experiences, those are, those are of course connected, but they're a little bit different for me in my mind because I think of the sort of like guest experience in one thing.
And then I think of the standards that we set in the kitchen and also the team dynamic and the whole, the culture that you create inside of a, inside the kitchen. I kind of see that as a separate entity that needs to get built and nurtured and cultured. Um, and I've kind of focused on that. And from there, I know that if we do that right, that good things will sprout that will affect the customer experience.
Um, of course, the first thing that, that you have to think about is the quality of produce. I think that comes before anything, you know, when you think of a, of a culinary concept. And of course you have like a certain style that you cook in that you like, et cetera, you know, but on the other side is the work culture that you create. And that's like the beating art of the restaurant because a restaurant lives, you know, kind of by itself.
It's like this kind of like weird organism that just like eats and people come in and come out, you know, and they're kind of like the guests, you know, they kind of like, they kind of step into your world and they enjoy it and then they go out. But like for that to be enjoyable, you really have to cultivate a certain culture in a restaurant. And that's very, very difficult. Having a restaurant in that caliber, it is about, you know, making sure that it's, it's more than nutrition.
It's about an experience. And also like the culture is cultivating the sense of like, I want to be a, you know, part of a forging that experience for the guests. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's part of it. And what I mean even more is the culture between themselves. Right? So like, of course it's super important that they care about what they put on the, like how they put it on the plate and whether it's going out odd, if it looks all right, et cetera.
But actually that's less for, it sounds a little bit weird probably, but that's less for the guests and that should be more for them. Right? So like if I'm cooking, of course I want my guests to have a good experience and stuff. But if I like plate something neatly, I do it like for myself, you know, I'm striving to improve myself and therefore, you know, I'm trying to make it better all the time and that arrives at the guest's table and they hopefully enjoy it, you know?
And so I feel like when you have, when you do that and you, when you create like an environment in the kitchen where there's no, no toxic behavior, where there's an open conversation about the craft that you're doing, about the quality, about the produce, about, you know, further development, you create a very productive and positive environment.
And I think I really believe that that impacts the whole restaurant very, very fundamentally, you know, if you have a kitchen that's always like, all right, you know, it's not sort of like, Hey, like what the fuck is this? This is wrong. You know, we have to do this again and just kind of bashing people, you know, and then they're just like robots and they're just like replicate and replicate and replicate.
But if you have an open, if you keep an open conversation, you're sort of like, Hey, this, the sauce tastes kind of sweet. Like what's the reason, you know, and you kind of look at it and you realize the onions are a lot sweeter than they usually are, you know, because produce changes and you just have an open conversation. So it's like, Hey, maybe we should do it like this tomorrow.
And then like what you have is like people coming to you and they're saying like, Hey chef, like, look, this is like this today, you know, what should we do? And you talk with them and in a very relaxed manner and in a very flexible way, your chefs are going to develop further. There's a very organic progress for them also professionally because they learn more and more, right.
And it improves the quality of everything massively, but also, you know, the whole vibe of the restaurants, you know, we have a restaurant where there's an open kitchen, you know, and it's hard work and everybody works super hard, but at the same time, we're like relaxed and nobody's angry and like, we just, we're organized to a point where the amount of work is like manageable without it being, you know, a pain and we go from day to day trying to improve
from day to day, you know, and I feel like people feel that. Did this style of leading your kitchen come from, you know, working in other kitchens where this was the complete opposite, where it was this old school dictatorship, shut your mouth and just do what I tell you, even if you don't understand or don't agree what I'm telling you. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I can't say that I didn't used to be like that, you know, like I became a head chef like very young and I think that a bad style of management is most of the time, most of the time it comes from an inability to do so, right. So if you're the last resort is what shouting, right. If you, if you're, if your line cook makes the sauce wrong and you shout at him, what the fuck the sauce is wrong, make it again.
Like what are you doing instead of being able to detach from the situation, you know, cause you're managing other things at the same time, taking the time to explain it to him. So kind of like managing your frustration, all the things you have going on in the back of your head and making a decision of sort of like, what is the most productive way of communicating with this guy or this person so that he very efficiently learns how to make the sauce right. Right.
Because like we're talking about a time pressure scenario, right. And that takes, that takes also self control that takes, you know, a cool head. So that means that you have to be able to manage the things that you have to do that you're multitasking in a very controlled way. If you're overwhelmed by all the things that you do and somebody comes to you and they're like, shave the sauce, but you're like, fuck something else that I have to worry about.
Um, yeah, it's just your inability to, to keep calm and collected and in control. And I think that that's the case with a lot of these chowdy chefs, you know, apart from the fact that they play a character, you know, some, a lot of the, especially famous chefs, you know, they, they are very much capable of keeping in control, but they play a character.