Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. Today we're going to talk about paella Nazis. So Phil, you're not a paella Nazi, right? You hate people messing around with traditional recipes. Well, what can you tell us about it? You know, I don't know why you're accusing me like that. I feel like I'm a pretty free spirit when it comes to paella. But we both, I think, know you definitely more than I,
but we know a lot of people in Spain that take it very, very seriously. Sometimes a little bit too seriously. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that there's a reason for it since I'm Venezuelan, but I have Spanish heritage and German heritage. So I kind of see sometimes like the things that are lost in translation. And when it comes to paella, there is definitely a case because like for Spaniards paella is paella, a specific type of rice cooked in a specific
pan with a specific set of ingredients. And whatever is outside of those, that set of ingredients, it's just rice. So of course you can bring that to another country and say, Oh no, you can't call this paella. You have to call this rice, even if you're cooking it in a paella pan. So whatever is cooked in a paella pan in other countries, it's called a paella variation, which is not allowed in Spain.
Yeah, yeah, they're very serious about it. But then like again, you know, it's kind of like, like you say, like everything else just falls under the title arroces, you know, because I mean, in Spain, there's not that much of a culture eating white rice as much. But I mean, obviously rice is a huge part of the Spanish cultural identity. I mean, rice is
so quintessentially Spanish. So like, can you break it down for us? What exactly is the difference between what paella is, so paella valenciana, and what other like how it differentiates itself from other Spanish rice? I mean, other Spanish rice, there are many, many specific rice. I like very much one that is only with codfish and cauliflower, and there is nothing else to it. And I think that's
a pretty cool combination. But you have black rice, you have arroz a banda, and so on. So for paella nowadays, I would say it has chicken, flat beans, garrafon beans, sometimes artichokes, and the saffron, of course. And around that, there are many variations. If you go historically, and that's something like most paella Nazis probably don't know, the oldest paella that has been found in Britain used rat de Lemporda, which is a country rat. It's kind of like
a beaver sized hamster. It looks like, or maybe also similar to a cuy. You know, this cuy, this giant hamster that is also cooked in Peru. Kitty picket, yeah. Yeah, this was replaced by rabbit at some point, and then chicken. So in any case, it's a white meat piece of the animal protein, then the vegetables are pretty much the same, and that's it. Then there is people, of course, when you start you add some shredded tomato.
And just before it starts burning, you add the paprika. There are variations where you add the rice before you add the liquid. This would be the Alicante variation, but the Valencian variation, you first add the stock, and there is a specific way of measuring and adding the rice in a straight line. And then usually at the end, when it's almost finished, you put the fire to the maximum to create like a crust, which is called a soca rat. And this,
again, this is something that very curious people here do. And I've known many people that they had their first contact with paella in Latin America, like myself, that don't like this, don't like the soca rat, don't like some things that are done in the original ways of paella. You have to understand that Latin America was a Spanish colony. So like
there is a paella that evolved in its own direction in Latin American countries. When people talk about adding chorizo to the paella, it's again a mistranslation because there are many things that would be called longaniza or chistorra in Spain, more like grilled sausages that are used in paella in many countries in South America. You will find this even in Spanish restaurants run by Spanish people in Latin America. So that's what I can
say then. Another key point is like the thickness of the rice. The most gourmet rices and paellas you will see in Spain, they have only one layer of rice and that's something like very high end. But like in the most traditional ways, you have like a good layer of one to two centimeters, but no more than that. You see also paellas made abroad and they have like this 10 centimeters layer of rice. I've seen even in newspaper pictures putting paellas
as an example with lime, which is not Spanish at all. And I'm pretty sure the flavor that it generates, it's correct. But I do understand that people get upset about it. Same as I do get upset when I see cua libre made with white rum or these kinds of things that are not acceptable if you belong to a culture. Yeah. I also grew up with these like really bastardized paellas where you just have like
10 centimeters of rice, like fluffed up almost like basmati rice, right? Where it's like fluorescent yellow, it just tastes of saffron and it's loaded up with seafood, you know? But seafood often isn't even cooked in the rice or anything. And it's just like, if you know what real paella is, it's kind of like the first time you see it. Because really it's something very minimalist, you know? And that's what I like about it. It's like
the quality of the rice is super important. And then like you say, the best paellas that I've had, they had almost just like one grain of rice layer. The rice was completely flat. There was not one grain on top of each other. All the grains perfectly intact, cooked to a point where it's still what you would call al dente and the socarrat. It's like, it's so simple. And then the garnish would only be like maybe a little bit of vegetables,
some like flat, like, you know, broad beans or whatever. And then a little bit of protein. But really the rice is the most important thing about it. Yeah, I agree. Actually, the most traditional versions, they don't even use stocks. The most traditional ones are made with water. I guess at some point it was just logical to add a strong stock to a paella. And on that, I also have my opinion. I've tried
with beef stock, fish stock or other seafood stocks and chicken. And for me, the best result is with chicken personally. Oh yeah? Really? Yeah. I mean, I've also, you know, like I, once you delve, it's such a deep culture and there's so many like different approaches to like how to cook rice, you know, it's a really, really broad spectrum. You know, people think of Spanish rice and they
always think of paella, but there's so many variations. There's so many different combinations and also like very unusual approaches in a sort of international kind of point of view, you know, like they, you know, I mean, just talking about the stock, of course, but also like a sofrito, you know, like I remember I was cooking in Mexico with some Spanish chefs and they were specializing in rice and they were making different sofritos. One that
stood out was one made from green peppers. And then I was kind of thinking to myself, I was like, you know what, like green peppers aren't really used that much like around the world, but in Spain they hold a very, very particular place in cooking. Yeah. Yeah. And they were caramelizing this down. I mean, as a sofrito for people who don't know, you
know, it can be many things, but it's basically like vegetables or tomato or garlic. And it's basically cooked down and caramelized for a really, really long time until you have a very flavor intense base paste. I once saw a guy making a sofrito for two days, cooking it like a minimum temperature until the tomato was like super dark brown. It was amazing.
Yeah. Was he, was he also a paella Nazi? Probably. I mean, this guy was Catalan. I mean, if you, yeah, see, see if you're, if you're having, if you're putting a dedication to cook your sofrito down for two days, I think like something in your brain, something in your brain is
wired in a different way than the rest of the world. You're a bit of a maniac, but, but yeah, you know, I mean, like if you compare it to, you know, like tomato concentrate that you get in the tube and it's like super reduced and like very, if you get a good quality ones, like super umami rich, it makes a lot of sense. You know, you're caramelizing and you're reducing
the water without burning. So you're just concentrating the flavor. And yeah, I mean, for me, it's like the best one that I've had was by far with Caldo de Marisco, which with a mixed seafood stock, there was these same guys in Mexico that I was cooking with and they, they were saying that all the stocks that they add, they want to get to a point
where you could easily just serve the stock as a really delicious soup. And they said, if it's not at that point, then you shouldn't use it to cook rice. I agree. Like, it's like, like with risotto, like the stock is a dish. You just add rice
to it. Yeah. But then again, with risotto, you know, you have to advantage that even if your stock isn't like super powerful at the end, you add a shit ton of cheese, you know, which is gonna and butter and butter, which is gonna umph your flavor like massively. But like with, with Spanish rice is like, you don't have to like, I think there it's really apparent that if you, if your broth is not strong enough and your sofrito is not balanced enough, then you can really tell afterwards.
Yeah, I mean, but then I go back to the traditional ones. The ones you see like at homes are many times made with water because you already have you're using pieces of meat with bones, you have some vegetables and you have a strong sofrito. So there's your broth, you're going to cook it like for enough time. So to take the flavor out of all these elements. But of course, if you want to make a higher end paella, the stronger the stock, the better the result. For sure.
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess we're talking about restaurant quality, you know, not to, I mean, really, like when I think about like, I mean, I've never I've only ever cooked these sort of like very elaborate rice as either in a restaurant or with other chefs, you know, where you end with and the passion and the like dedication towards the simple rice dishes from from Spanish chefs is insane. They take it super, super seriously.
Yeah, and especially the the cook point of the rice. I think that that's where you because that's something very hard to learn and to teach. It's just a matter of experience. You have to cook at least 20 paellas and have tried hundreds of them to know exactly what's right and what's wrong. Yeah, totally. But I mean, like the cooking of the rice itself is also really intricate.
I thought like the first time I saw it, I thought it was super fascinating, especially when people cook it over open fire, which is the traditional way of doing it, you know, and it's high flame a lot of the time. And it's such a simple thing. I mean, really,
you're just cooking rice in a thin layer. But to get the cooking point right, to get it even, you know, sort of like moving the rice from the outside to the center and likewise moving the broth around, you know, like you see chefs like really obsessing over this paella pan and really caressing it, paying attention to where it bubbles more and where
it bubbles less. I remember one guy, he was like really watching it and then sort of like taking spoonfuls of broth from one side of the pan and putting them on the other side of the pan. I mean, like it's really, there's a huge pride, you know, attached to this dish. Yeah. I mean, I would say it's not that complicated. That's why it's so famous. I mean, it's something
really easy to make. Of course, to perfection it takes time. But at the end of the day, you're just putting some vegetables and some pieces of meat and then cooking them in the same broth with the same rice. If you want to simplify everything. So it's something that really for someone to make at home, if you have everything ready, it would take less
than half an hour. Yeah. If you have all the ingredients ready. For restaurant, what I've seen is that they have like this super strong sofritos and you just add like the most fast way to do it is to have a super strong sofrito, super good stock. And you just mix the three ingredients and cook the 20 or so minutes that it takes to be cooked everything. And you can get really good results as long as you pay attention to the cooking point of
the rice. Yeah, absolutely. And if you know your rice and you know, like you figure out the amount of liquids that it's going to need to get you that perfect thing, you don't even need to worry too much about adding stock, checking the rice, et cetera. Once you figure it out with the type of rice you're using, then that's pretty safe. What about saffron? Do you like saffron in general?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I do. I mean, like it's I like it where it belongs, you know, I'm not like a huge like it's one of those things kind of like truffle, you know, it's like a little goes a long way. And I especially like those sorts of ideas that I ate as a kid that were just overloaded with fake and cheap saffron powder. And that was like the main carrying flavor. And I think that's horrible. No matter how much aioli you put on it.
It doesn't matter. But yeah, you know, I mean, saffron is a beautiful thing when it's high quality saffron and it's used, you know, sparsely, like it's it gives the thing the character it needs for sure. What about you? Yeah, I really like saffron. I remember when I was in Mugaritz, that was like in 2005. They did like this presentation at an international conference about saffron. So they had like 15 different vacuum bags where they added saffron just to water just to see the the
intensity of the color they generated with the same amount. And this was really interesting because you usually think about saffron, at least in my case, I think about La Mancha. But then I learned that there are very interesting saffrons as well in Iran and Afghanistan and Tasmania, like countries that you wouldn't tell. And as you say, you just have to roast it a little bit at the beginning. And when you add the liquid, it will like absorb all
the the aroma generated. And also the other thing about saffron is that it's if I'm not wrong, the most expensive spice there is. Yeah. Yeah. Along with vanilla. But at the same time, you just need a little bit. So proportionally, it's affordable. It's not I mean, you nobody I've never seen a kilogram of saffron in my life. I just use like milligrams,
I guess. It's definitely affordable, like especially if you're going to use it like a few times, you know, I mean, it seems like a lot if you're like at home just trying to make one rice and then you're like, oh, shit, I don't have any saffron. I guess I got to buy some and then you buy like a small flask for 30 quid and you're like, well, fuck now suddenly my pay a fortune. But if it's part of your pantry and use it, it's definitely
worth it. And it's it's really worth investing in like good quality one also. What do you think about pimiento choricero for the paella? I mean, pimiento choricero, you mean like the paste? I've never used it for paella. I usually use like pimenton, like the powder one and the sweet one. And as I said, I added just before the water, so it roasts a little bit but it doesn't burn. But I've seen pimiento choricero like in sofritos and these kind
of things. I guess you just one or the other. I'm not sure. I'm not such a paella expert either. Yeah, me neither. I've heard some people like say that it has to be pimiento choricero and other people, you know, like have a completely different opinion. But yeah, it's a good point. It's sort of like I feel like it definitely has a place in the sofrito. But then again, sort of like, you notice like I've seen also people do two different sofritos,
one tomato sofrito and then one vegetable sofrito. Right. So like tomato sofrito usually sort of like poached garlic and then tomato and pimenton cooked down. And then like a vegetable sofrito that's usually sort of like onion or you know, I saw like the white part of leek a lot also. The same just like cooked down for a really, really, really long time. And then those two separate then added together with the rice when you sweat the rice. Some
of the best results that I saw myself. Yeah, that sounds really good. And it also makes sense to do them separately. Yeah, I especially think about the tomato because it's so liquid. You want to give it its own process until it's really caramelized. Yeah, for sure. That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us
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