Hi everyone, welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. Today we're going to talk about ice ice baby. Ice cream. Ice cream. Yeah, ice cream. Who doesn't like ice cream? How would you define ice cream, Phil? Do you have any like a definition? You're just gonna drop that on me like that? Ice cream, I mean ice cream is... You can talk about cream and glaze, blah blah blah. I mean, yeah, I mean cream and glaze is of course, you know... But start all over, otherwise Sander will go crazy.
So ice cream is basically, you know, there's a distinction between ice creams and sorbets, of course. Ice cream is a combination of liquids and fats in a certain ratio that when frozen, crystallized, they need to have a certain viscosity, they need to have a certain thickness, so that when frozen correctly, they crystallize in a certain way to make a creamy and ideally delicious frozen cream. Sure. Yeah, you mentioned cream and glaze.
Could you describe a cream and glaze what it is or do you want me to do it? Yeah, no, a cream and glaze is basically like a dairy liquid, milk and cream, or sometimes just milk that is thickened with egg yolks. Exactly, sometimes even just cream. I mean like... But yeah, basically dairy thickened with eggs or egg yolks, these egg yolks are cooked just to a certain temperature, so they don't become scrambled eggs, but just enough that they thicken the sauce and that's it.
Basically like a loose custard. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and it's one of the first things you learn while you're learning sweets or pastries is that cream and glaze, because it's a mother sauce in the sweet domain, and it's also like a variation of it with some flour or corn flour and a different ratio of the ingredients, you will get a pastry cream that you will find in all pastries.
But I mean, going back to the cream and glaze, yeah, basically if you do a cream and glaze and you throw that into an ice cream machine, that's ice cream, and you can infuse a cream and glaze with basically whatever, any spice, anything that doesn't dilute the cream, and basically that's it. When did you make ice cream for the first time? It must have been at Margot. Okay.
100%, yeah. I feel like we made ice cream in a little bit of like a very old school way at Margot, like there weren't that many stabilizers and stuff, like all the cream ice creams were basically a cream and glaze base. Yeah, they were all egg yolk thickens, you know, I don't see that anywhere anymore, you know, that people like thicken egg yolks, and I feel like it's very rare these days. Yeah, I guess I can expect that in super classic restaurants like Schwadtswalstube, those kind of places.
I don't know, or even those places today, I could also expect like stabilizers and modern ice cream techniques. Yeah, for sure. Well, for me making ice cream for the first time, it was quite an experience because it's something you don't associate with something you make yourself, because usually you need like a special equipment or something.
And to be honest, I think it's not a good idea to make ice cream at home with an ice cream machine, like all the ice creams that I've seen homemade, they're full of crystals, there are a lot of work. It's absolutely not the idea of making ice cream. What I recommend if you want to make ice cream at home, don't make ice cream, make a parfait.
A parfait is basically a cream based mousse that when frozen, it's like a way around, but you get like a very similar effect to an ice cream, you can scoop it out. And that's what I recommend for home. You get an effect that is not as crystallized as with this home ice cream machines. And it's actually, I've seen that also in restaurants, making parfaits as an ice cream that you would serve. I mean, if it's integrated into an ice dessert, it's a super nice thing to do.
I think it's super underrated, to be honest with you. I think more people should do parfaits, it kind of has this very old schooly connotations, where you see these several, where you just have a dessert of a parfait with three different layers. But I've seen really nice stuff, even like a, I saw something the other day I really liked, which was a parsley parfait, but like sweets for a vegetable dessert. And I was like, man, that's really cool actually, I really like that.
Then I remember I was working in Alicante as a pastry chef for a while, and I got into the technical aspects of ice cream. And there was this book that was very famous at the time that was called The Secrets of Ice Cream by Angelo Corvito, which is full of shit, that book, because there are no secrets that are revealed. The guy gives you procedures that don't work and formulas that don't work. And everything is so obscure and unclear that it's like, okay, what the fuck?
And so like 10 years later, I first came to the Basculinary Center as a research intern. I was making an exchange, I was working in a culinary lab, and this culinary lab made an exchange with the Basculinary Center. So I was allowed to enter two different classes, which was a super nice experience. And one of these classes was ice cream formulation. And it was a course for the chefs at Mugaritz, and I was allowed to get in as a listener.
And it was lectured by Camila Fiol, who now is on her own right, a super well-established pastry chef in Chile, in Santiago. But she was the protégé of a guy that is called César Romero. And that guy is probably Spain's most underrated pastry chef, because he's like a teacher, a lecturer. He doesn't work in pastries or restaurants, and he's also a consultant. But this guy, when it comes to formulation, he's just a genius.
He made like this Excel sheet with integrated formulas with very straight parameters to make ice cream. There are these parameters like anti-freezing power. Let's say sugar has an anti-freezing power, liquor as well. If you have a very strong syrup, it won't freeze. And if you have a liquor, same thing. So if you integrate these ingredients into an ice cream formula, you will get a very specific effect. So this guy had everything parameterized.
Another one was sweetening power, because that's another thing. If you put something in the freezer, the sweetness goes down. So you have to calculate to over sweeten it. So when it's at the desired temperature, the sweetness effect that you want. And there was this Excel sheet with mathematic formulas to calculate something, and it was a practical class. So Camila was asking, OK, someone say something. Why would you make an ice cream?
And we formulated here in real time, and we make the ice cream actually in the ice cream machine, and we try it. And I think someone said chocolate. I think that chocolate ice cream that I tried that day is the best chocolate ice cream I've ever tried. And the next thing was, OK, someone say something crazy. And I said olives, green olives, a savory green olives ice cream. And so she started formulating.
You know, like the Excel sheet was on the screen, so all the students were watching, and we were like solving the formula together. Like, OK, the anti-freezing power. Another thing that needs to be calculated when you make ice cream is the service temperature. There is like this myth that it should be this or that temperature, which is not true. It is at the temperature that you formulate the ice cream for. So you could have ice cream at minus 40 Celsius degree if you formulated it accordingly.
And you will have a perfectly creamy ice cream at that temperature if the formula is correct. So you formulate thinking on the temperature that will be the service temperature. And yeah, you will have perfectly non-crystallized ice creams there. And for me, this was like a huge slap in the face because basically they were telling me, OK, you've been doing ice cream for the last 10 years, but you have no idea about what you were doing basically. Yeah, it's a super fascinating topic.
And I had the same experience actually, like when I got more into it, because I don't think people realize how complex of an issue it is to formulate ice cream. It's like you say, the serving temperatures, the level of sugar, the amount of fats, the speed at which you freeze it and all those sorts of things. It's insane. Yeah, the machine that you're using. Exactly. Then when we come to machinery, we have actual ice cream machines and we have the Pacojet, which is used in restaurants.
But that's not a real ice cream machine. That's like a cheat code or a way around. But basically what you're doing is not ice cream, like according to the proper definition, so to say. Do you have any memorable ice cream experiences that you could remember? Oh, man, I have so many. I still... We already told that story, right? Like the one, Philip, we don't have any ice cream. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the line episodes. That was a nice caramel ice cream, man.
Well, in that restaurant, they also had like an ice cream that for me is fucking memorable. It was just a creme anglaise. And in the ice cream machine, while it was churning, you would add super high quality, delicious Austrian pumpkin seed oil to the mixture. And what came out was like a deep green ice cream that looked like pistachio. And it has this nutty note. It was incredible. Amazing. That's one of my favorites for sure. Oh, yeah, that's super nice.
Actually, one of my most memorable ice creams was also from that restaurant. And it was super, super simple. But it was just really, really well made and had that like just that like little bit of complexity that you need for something to really stand out. And it was a very nice vanilla ice cream. It was just like, you know, a vanilla creme anglaise base. And then also when it was churning and loads of vanilla in it, you know, fresh, like proper vanilla.
And then when it was churning, you add a little bit of Kirsch, you know, Kirsch being the traditional German Austrian, you know, cherry schnapps, which is not sweet. It's dry, but it has this really strong, not cherry flavor, but it just tastes like Kirsch, you know, like alcoholic cherry. And that added, apart from the ice cream being super nicely made, if it would have just been a vanilla ice cream, it that added like this little bit of alcoholic complexity to the ice cream.
And that was super delicious. This was a caramel ice cream or? No, it was just a vanilla ice cream. Ah, okay. Yeah. I also remember like a very good vanilla ice cream. This was while I was working in Alicante as well. And it was a basic vanilla ice cream with just a micro doses of banana artificial flavor from Sosa. But man, that shit is amazing. You know this story, you know, this is crazy, man.
Have you noticed that whenever you try any banana, let's say gummy bears or ice cream or this kind of things, it has a flavor that is not the same flavor as bananas have? You know why that is? No, why? Because there was like a big extinction of bananas through a pandemic of a fungus at some point. And whatever, like an agronomic solution to solve the problem was made and the bananas after that generation lost its characteristic flavor.
But the artificial flavors keep the original flavor of the predecessors of today's bananas. And that's why that flavor is different. So when you have like, you're actually tasting a flavor that is extincted. No way. Really? Yeah, man. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. So this was just banana. No, it was just a vanilla ice cream. And I remember dosifying the artificial flavor of banana was key because if you made too much, it was crap.
But if you've made the right amount, man, it was something out of this world. You know, banana and vanilla. It's like, you know, exactly. And I remember that ice cream was super good. And then more complex ice creams. Have you been to Pierre Hermes places in Paris? No, never actually. Well, that's a must if you're in Paris. Well, the famous macarons he made, but also the ice creams. These were like perfect ice creams without a single crystal.
And I remember having the peach melba, which is a classic dessert from Auguste Scoffier. Auguste Scoffier is like, how to say, like one of the godfathers of modern cuisine in the early 1900s in France. And he popularized this dessert, which was basically peach. I think it's some kind of berry cream and vanilla. I think vanilla Perfait was the original one. I'm not sure, but those kind of were like the flavors.
And this was like an interpretation of Pierre Hermes, like all the three flavors with three colors in a single ice cream. Amazing, like just incredible. Nice. I have a couple of like memorable sorbets more than ice creams, you know. In Mexico, we used to make this like really clean sorbet out of tonic water. And so like the type of tonic water you would use for gin tonic, cucumber, and then loads of herbs, like loads of chervil, a little bit of parsley, tarragon, a little bit of coriander.
And we would make this like really lightly, like light green, super fresh, lightly bitter sorbet. And it was like, it was with like a little bit of lime juice, you know. It was super, super delicious. Or the beetroot sorbet that we made at BCC. That was like also like super nice, which was like also like taking an old recipe from Hoffmann and just kind of like tweaking it a little bit. That was my recipe, my friend, not from Hoffmann. Yeah, yeah, I know.
But like making it so you could make it in a in a in a churner, in an ice cream churner. And like the mixture of like cooked beetroot and fresh beetroot juice, you know, with lime juice to it, you know, it's like, oh, it's amazing. Yeah, you brought it like to another level. I remember we used to make that and that also like an example of. So basically a Pacojet is a machine that you make like you put an ice block in it.
And this machine breaks it down to two little parts that you have like a frozen puree. And that's what you have. And this can be perceived as an ice cream, but it's it's not really an ice cream. And I remember that that one that we we would do it was just pure beetroots, pure beetroot puree. You sweeten it with some lime and that in that idea of making a puree and transform it into an ice cream. We also when we open here the Laber restaurant, we did the same with carrots.
And that's a super nice dessert that is still on the menu, which is the carrots. Same idea. Just a carrot puree instead of using glucose, which is what we use in Magot. We use the honey, which has sweetening and anti-freezing power and lime. So just three ingredients, basically two step process. And it's an amazing ice cream. And doing frozen puree at a Pacojet is a good idea because it makes it more stable because Pacojet ice cream usually melt like right away.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm making a really nice Pacojet sorbet at the moment also, which I was like a little bit surprised by. And it's a Mirabelle sorbet. And so instead of making like just a sorbet from the fruit, what we did was like we took the fruit and blitzed it with the stones. So all the stones broke open. Wow. And then just like weird like, you know, splintery mass. We add the sugar to it. We bring it to a boil and we let it simmer a little bit.
And then we like push it through a chinoise and pass it. That's crazy. And then out of that, we make a sorbet. So you have like the super acidic sweet sorbet, but you have this like almondy marzipan flavor together with it. Yeah, sounds insane. That's amazing. Super delicious. Yeah, it's really, really nice. Well, you reminded me of the, you know, the last dance of El Puyi, the last dinner they delivered. Yeah. They also made like an interpretation of peach melba.
And they also did something with the bones, with the seeds of the, like a peach with a similar to amygdala. Are we talking about the same fruit? Yeah, right. Like a stone fruit. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because sometimes I get confused with, sometimes I get confused with amygdala and nectarine or something like that. Ah, okay. Which are completely different. Happens. What else? I remember also while traveling in Tuscany, where was it? It wasn't a town called Siena, exactly.
Siena in Tuscany, an old medieval city, crazy place where they do the Paglio, which is an animation celebration. I made a food tour there and they showed us the different gelaterias and something that they showed us there, like the crappy tourist traps with these ice creams that look like green aliens. And then the actual real gelatos, which is, it was a pistachio ice cream and it was gray, completely not appetizing color.
And it's the best pistachio ice cream I've tried in my life by far. It was like something out of this world. Absolutely. Yeah, pistachio ice cream when it's done well is one of my absolute favorites also. Pistachio and hazelnut, you know, it's like, it's out there. Yeah, those two. Here in San Sebastian, I like very much the guys from Zuka, which is a little brother restaurant of Nauru, where they do only Wagyu beef burgers and they formulate and produce their own ice creams.
And I think they make really good ice cream. These are my favorites here in San Sebastian. You know, one really good ice cream I also remember is the one at Echebari, the smoked milk ice cream with the beetroot juice. Have you had that? No, I've never been to Echebari, but that's like an icon for sure. Yeah, for sure. And that was just like super clean, super pure. Also like really, like just really high quality milk, very fatty, you know.
And then with the, you know, they smoke it a little bit and then make it into an ice cream with the beetroot juice, like super nice.
Another memorable one I remember, I was in Barcelona and at that time I was trying like this Spanish famous chefs, their delivery proposals, because mainly Danny Garcia had started this business called La Familia Mediterranea, which is crazy because you go into like your delivery platform and he had like eight different concepts, like I don't know, like the healthy restaurant, the pizza restaurant, the Spanish restaurant, the Italian restaurant, like eight different concepts,
but all under the same umbrella brand, so to say, like a scope that encompassed all these things. And you could make in one order, in the same order, like order these completely different things because this guy had like a huge central kitchen in Barcelona where he could do that. Yeah. Well, that was by far the best delivery experience, food delivery experience. I mean, I have pictures, the steak tartare was plated, like nicely plated, like you would find in a restaurant.
And there was like this box, I ordered ice cream, it was a tiramisu ice cream. I have an unboxing video of the ice cream. And it was this sphere of styrofoam and yeah, like you would open it like in half and inside was like, you know, like the way you would find a tiramisu is like powder with cocoa, right? So I put this spoon inside, it was perfectly non-crystallized ice cream, creamy, perfect.
And I mean, that's an achievement, like making ice cream for delivery and delivering perfect. Yeah, that's super hard. I guess they must probably formulate it, as I said, like to minus 40 degrees Celsius, something like that, so that the ice creams are, and calculate the delivery time.
So it defroses to the service time. It has to be some logic like that to achieve that. Yeah, for sure. It has to be. There's no way that it holds at like the, that they have it at the serving temperature that it just holds. No, for sure. And what about brand ice creams? You have any favorites, any ones you like, like the ones you find in the supermarket?
Oh, I'm like, I'm like, I don't know, I have really bad ice cream habits. Like I don't, I don't buy ice cream a lot, but like the like Reese's cups Ben and Jerry's, you know, the one with the like chunky Reese's cups. The cookie dough. Oh man. I love, I love the Bob Marley one. They have like a special edition. It was called Bob Marley. And that one had also this banana fake ancient flavor that I was talking about.
Yeah. They had to like the monkey chips at one point, no, with the banana flavor also. They were really nice. Yeah. The Bob Marley was the best. And I actually Googled like, what are these guys doing? Why are they offering Bob Marley? And actually there was like, they were giving royalties to Bob Marley's family for using the name. Yeah. Apart from that, I like, like usually I like really fresh and acidic stuff.
And there was like this one, you know, the twisters, you know, he's like twisting. And they had like, I don't know, I was, I was at the zoo with my son and he wanted an ice cream because you know, when we're out, he wants ice cream like every 10 minutes, you know, it doesn't matter how many he's had.
And so I got him an ice cream and I thought I'd get myself one also. And they had like a twister and it was like green apple, lemon and like something else acidic. And I got it and I ate it. And I was like, man, this is super delicious. I had like three flavors, but it was like super sour, super fresh and it was like perfect, you know.
And also a memory I have, this was super crazy. There, there is this Venezuelan chef, hell-brood something, I don't remember. And he was leading this super Venezuelan restaurant called Toupe in Caracas when I was living there.
And he sent like, that's the only place I've seen something like that. He sent us like a pumpkin cream soup, you know, pumpkin cream soup. And when I stuck the spoon and I put it into my mouth, it had a passion fruit ice cream inside. So you have this mixture of fruit savory and hot and cold. And that was really crazy, man. It was really nice. Oh, that sounds cool. That kind of reminds me of like, I thought this, you know, the chef Daniel Calvert? No.
Who was, he's a British guy. He was the head chef at Belon in Hong Kong for a long time. And now he's at Cezanne in Tokyo in the Four Seasons. An amazing chef, like super perfectionist. And he's got this signature dessert where, you know, when you cut a mango in half, right.
And you cut the like, you cut like cross side across it, you know, to then flip it. So it looks like that it's a mango skin. And then you have to like cross section. But actually, when you put your spoon into it, it's like ice cream. So it's like ice cream and then like compote and then like a something. He serves it with just like a spoonful of like a shortbread chantilly on top. And it's, but it looks so perfect, you know, it's like, oh my God.
Is that this dessert style, like cedric golet, this mimetic kind of things? A little bit, but not quite like that. But that's really cool as well. Yeah, that's really cool. I've never had, I've never had his pastries, but like they look delicious, obviously, you know.
Yeah, for sure. No, same with me, but I've known people in Paris that have tried and they really like it. They told me that perhaps it's a little bit pricey for what it is. But of course, you're also paying the whole aesthetics of it. Of course. What about Kakigori? Have you ever had Kakigori? No, or maybe I have, but the name doesn't tell me. The Japanese ice cream of shaved ice, ice block that they shaved down.
Ah, well, you know, like we have something similar in Venezuela in the streets. It's called raspadito. And you find that in every corner and every square in something super traditional in Venezuela. And they have these traditional machines, exactly that, that you shave ice and then you just use a syrup, which is just shaved ice and syrup, right? Yeah, yeah, basically. This is our version.
Yeah. I mean, in Japan, they take it to another level, you know, there's like Kakigori masters and they make these like huge mountains of shaved ice with like different layers, you know, it's very seasonal, you know, in autumn, they'll have like a coffee cream and caramelized chestnut Kakigori with whiskey and like it's insane, you know, and it's, it's, it's really crazy. There was a Venezuelan pastry chef who worked at Nobu Honolulu once and he had like a super cool blog I was following.
And he was doing insane desserts at the time. Like I wonder what the guy is doing now, because I remember him doing like super elaborate desserts in the style of, you know, Sam Mason or this, this guy's from WD-50 that made this super complex desserts, plating with different elements. He was doing this, but in a complete Japanese direction because it was Nobu. And I remember him having like a super pro machine of, what's the name? Kakagori? Kakigori, yeah.
Kakigori, like a super pro Kakigori machine. Let's talk about savory ice creams. Like I remember once we used to have like when Phil and I started, met each other and we were working together. There were these days where there is nothing to do that happens one in a while in a restaurant, you're in the middle of service, but there is only one table. And so there is a lot of spare time to whatever, to talk and whatever. There are waiting times that are very uncomfortable.
And I remember we had this game of someone would say a concept and we would come up with ideas and ideas. I think that game later was called the Boba Gump game in the Mugari's book because they were saying different things that they could do with shrimps and Forrest Gump, like shrimp soup, shrimp dumplings, shrimp this. And I remember, and I remember it was savory ice cream and it was kind of a battle, right?
It was like who came up with the best idea? And you would say something, I would say something, and someone said, yeah, man, that's it. And I remember I came up with a sushi rice ice cream, which we have never made. We should make that one day just to have that tick sushi rice ice cream. We really should make it. Yeah, we really should make it. That was a nice idea. Yeah, it was a friendly battle, you know, but it's like, you know, it's like bouncing back and forth, you know.
Yeah, I remember you came once with also like, what was it? It was like something that later when the Mugari's book came out, you were like, wait, that's my idea. They stole it. It was like the Iasalda Ravioli or something like that. Do you remember? I think so. You came up with it. And one of those days we were just brainstorming in the middle of service. With like a hamstack or something like that. No, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck? That happens to me all the time.
Honestly, like I think I come up with something and then I realize, you know, no. Man and one. That's actually why I came up with making this episode about ice cream. One of the one of the best ice cream, one of the very memorable ice cream experience I had. I was in Bolivia and the chef Mauricio comes to me, Mauricio Lopez, and he has an ice cream. Try this. What is it? I try it and I start like hazelnuts. No. Chestnuts. No. And I go on and on and on.
And then suddenly he says porcini mushrooms. You know, like there is like an Amazonian variation. It's not porcini porcini in Bolivia. They're called callampa. It's an endogenous. But I mean, basically it's very similar to porcini mushrooms and using mushrooms for sweets. And it tasted like nuts. And it was amazing. And it was really mind blowing because it's something you don't expect at all. And I also thought it was really cool to play that game.
You know, like what is it? And you start saying things. And then I wanted to say that in the mushroom episode we made and I forgot about it. And after I was like no, let's make an ice cream episode. You have to come up with a new story again. That's why I get it now. Actually, that just reminded me of something that I like. This story just reminded me of another ice cream experience that I had where I had the same reaction like you.
And it was very recent. I was invited for dinner at my friend Norbert's place. And Norbert is not just one of the best pastry chefs that I know, but also one of the best chefs that I know. And he invited a couple of his friends to dinner and he made, you know, just super amazing food. But at the end he also made he had a dessert of macerated vineyard peaches and an ice cream that he made at home, you know, just casually, you know.
Yeah. And it was a vanilla ice cream, but it had something else in it. And like I was eating this ice cream and I was like, what the fuck? This is so tasty, you know, like. And I couldn't pinpoint what it was. And I was like, is it like nuts? Like, is it maybe like hazelnuts or something like that? And we were all kind of guessing because it was like other people from, you know, restaurants also. And we were sort of like, man, this is so tasty. Is it some alcohol?
And he was like, no, it's actually wild fennel seeds. So he had vanilla ice cream, toasted wild fennel seeds. And it was such a subtle flavor, this fennel, toasted fennel flavor in the vanilla ice cream. It was so complex. And I was like, man, this is really that's what really good cooking is that you eat something you like. This is so delicious. And you're like, but I can't really. What is it? You know, I think fennel pollen is one of the most interesting things I've smelled in my life.
It's like something really, really crazy. I remember we were like in this restaurant where we would get like lots of fennel leaves that came from the garden. And I had to select just the finest of the finest of the pollen. And just, man, and that shit is more expensive than saffron. So that's the reason you don't find it anywhere because it's very, very expensive to produce. Yeah, that's an amazing ingredient.
Yeah. And another approach to make ice creams is what the whole new Nordic movement has done, like making ice with whey, with wood, with things that you wouldn't normally use for sweets or not even for cooking and using them to make a sweet ice cream. Like whey ice cream is something really impressive, I think.
Yeah, for sure. Or like, you know, like even finding like putting things out of context, you know, like one of my favorite ice creams I've ever made was made like a really an ice cream or a sorbet, but just like a raw pumpkin sorbet. So you take pumpkin, like really nice quality aged pumpkin and you juice it raw.
And then out of the juice you make an ice cream. It's almost got flavors like cantaloupe, you know, it's like like melon, super fruity and stuff, you know, and it's like just kind of, you know, that not to be fixed on things always have to be savory or these things always have to be sweet.
But the kind of like just taking them out of the context, you know, kind of like what in Norway they were doing with like in Norway they eat potatoes with like caramel, you know, and just kind of like taking it out of what you're used to and just. Yeah, or in Brazil, in Brazil if you tell them you put salt to avocado, they're like, you do what? You put sugar to avocado. Why would you put salt to avocado? Oh, really?
Yeah, like the prejudice in Brazil is that avocado is something to make like sweet smoothies, sweet things and things like that. And salt is like, why would you do that? Yeah, I mean, I get it. Like I've had amazing avocado desserts, especially in Mexico, you know, where the avocado is like super nutty and stuff, you know, like a good friend of mine, he made this.
He made this dish once where he wanted to use local ingredients, but he wanted to have this sort of like avocado effects and he used pistachios, like really nice quality pistachios. He used the microplane then because he had this like sweet nutty, fatty effects, you know, so I get it.