Hi everyone, welcome to potluck food talks. Today we're going to talk about hate. Because hate is also an important thing in life, right? There's also a positive side about hate. Just like chilies, you know? They're spicy, they hurt, but they're also nice somehow, aren't they? Yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, I mean, hate driving force in the culinary world, I think, no? Absolutely. Hate of yourself, hate of the customer, hate of the set. So what exactly are we talking about?
Yeah, like things we hate in food, right? Like, I guess that like, if you love some things, you probably love the opposite of it. So like saying what you hate says a lot about what you love, doesn't it? I guess so. I guess so. I mean, hate is a strong word, you know? Like, you can disagree with some things, you can dislike some things, but hating is really passionate. I guess, I guess. I mean, for example, tomato roses. What about tomato roses? You know,
they used to be like, fancy. I don't know when, if they ever were really fancy at some point, but you know, peeling a tomato and making a rose out of it. And this is something you still see in some places, you know, like in some crappy places, you will find a tomato rose once in a while. Is that something you hate? I mean, not passionately, but it's something I dislike, strongly dislike. You know, I'm kind of torn because I would kind of like, it depends what we're talking
about. If we're just talking about somebody just like cutting down a tomato into like a long strip and just putting it back together as like a rose in quotation marks, then that I dislike. But somebody who makes like an actual nice thing out of a vegetable, even though I would never do it, like I can still appreciate the skill, you know? Like somebody making like a fucking flower out of a watermelon, you know, just like white and pink sort of sculptures that like Asian chefs make.
Yeah, exactly. Like Chinese, like making this, I don't know, vegetable flamingos or these kind of things. I think that's beautiful. For sure. It is. Yeah, it's pretty cool actually. Yeah, I would never do it. I also, I can't do it. So, you know. What about ice sculptures? What are your thoughts on ice sculptures? Man, I like, I think they're impressive, honestly. I think they're impressive. I actually, I
like, you know, like big ice blocks. Like if you get like, like those like specially frozen big ice blocks and then you sort of like, you cut them to size and you can like serve stuff on it. You can put bowls on it so they keep cold in like a buffet or whatever, you know? When like a... Or like this is where you got a noma. Like this ice blocks with, with a apple soup inside. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, that was super cool. And like, it gives you like a cool sensation.
Like, I mean, like I remember when we were doing brunch in Dubai at Rowan, like we got this like big fuck ass ice block and we had this like stamp. It was for something else. I like heated it up and I stamped like the logo of the restaurant in the middle of the ice block. And then we just had a blow torch it so it'd be all nice and see-through. And then we kind of scatter, scattered like flowers on top of it and had it like as a centerpiece
of like the buffet. And that was pretty cool. You know, like I was like, I was like, man, this looks pretty nice. Really nice. Pretty fancy. I was recently in a restaurant in Barcelona with a Catalan friend and they sent us this pantomaca. And it was just not good. Yeah. And my friend is Catalan and she was like, I disapprove. And it was, you know, like there are just three things that you need to do right to do something like that, right? And they, at least one was wrong. Like the bread
was like a cheap bread and like a soft bread. That's also something that I think can ruin an experience in a restaurant. If the bread is not proper restaurant bread, if it's, I don't know, whatever piece of crap cut into slices and put in a basket. That's also something I hate passionately. Yeah, totally. Although it's like, it's really difficult, right? Because like I'm in Spain at the moment, right? And I mean, I'm not
really in Spain. I'm in the Canary Islands as we're speaking. And for example, that's Africa. Yeah, it's basically Africa. So like here, right? There's not like, there is a bread culture, but not like we know bread culture, right? So I went to a restaurant today and got served this like very standardized, very white bread. It's like a, like a bolillo, you know, like a little kind of like a small baguette. And it's like, it's very nondescriptive, but it's very crispy on the outside, very
fluffy on the inside. It's got like anise seeds in it. And it's still like most supermarket bread that you could buy here. And it's really cheap. And it's not great bread by like the standards of what bread is, right? But still it kind of fits the environment, right? And so like, I feel like, you know, you could go somewhere and get like a cheapish, well,
you know, not really cheap, but like a very just like squishy focaccia somewhere. And depending where you are, if it's the, I'm often like a, like a fan of these trashy things. Like, for example, I was talking about this this morning, I was having breakfast in a bar as in like a cafe, you know, you go to bars here in Spain to eat. And the coffee is not good coffee, right? Like by the standards of us international hipsters who, you know,
go to really nice coffee shops in Copenhagen and in London and whatever. And we know what a really good flat white tastes like with its blueberry and maracuja notes, right? And when the milk is like foamed properly. Yeah. Right. And the coffee here, it doesn't taste like that. It's like it's too, too burnt. It's too bitter. It's too dark, but still
it has its own. It has its own flair, right? It's like if you go to like a building site and somebody gives you like a fucking styrofoam cup of super burnt coffee, it has like its own flair, you know? Yeah. Like same like some coffees here in the Basque country, like the way, not, not, as you say, not the hipster international way, but the Basque way is like an overburnt grain of coffee. Like I, I, I absolutely don't like, but that's like the
common way here. Absolutely. And it's kind of cool also, like, you know, and then I'm kind of thinking what this place be the same if they serve this like fruity, nice, really beautiful flat white, some kind of like, I don't know. Yeah. It's like, for example, basic mustard, you know, like the cheap Simpson colored mustard. Yes. I think that's the one that belongs for example, to some type of burgers and sometimes have hot dogs. Uh, that's
the one, you know, you don't want to use a fancy mustard for that one. Yeah. 100% totally or heights, ketchup, like get the fuck away from me with any other kind of ketchup. I don't want your homemade ketchup. I'm sorry. I'm sorry if it's your grandma's recipe and you really treasure it. But if I want like, if you give it to me as a tomato sauce, the spice tomato sauce, I'm kind of like, okay, nice. But if you like, if something requires
ketchup, which sometimes is the case, right. Then I don't want any other thing than ketchup and not even just any ketchup. I want highest ketchup, you know? So people from Heinz, if you're listening to this, we're open to talk to some sponsorship for the show. You know, like, uh, I have mixed feelings actually, because I've done like home ketchups and,
uh, I, I, I do really fucking good home ketchups. And I think like, it's as you say, like I wouldn't put that on a sausage, you know, like I would, you know, like, uh, like a super nice tomato ketchup. Maybe you just add like a little teaspoon next to like a super nice braised pork belly because, uh, you know, you're cooking, you're putting it in a dish and that's like something else, you know, like, but you wouldn't put it on a hot dog.
Exactly. Like, yeah, it would be discompensated. Like one thing with the other. Cause I don't know, having champagne with a hot dog. You're an idiot if you do that basically. Oh, I disagree. I think I, I think so. Like a Dom Perignon, like a super expensive champagne. Man, I fuck with that. I fuck with that. Honestly. Like now that I'm imagining myself eating, man, like those hot dogs that we ate in Copenhagen, you know, a nice glass of Dom Perignon. Fuck.
Yeah. By the way, those hot dogs, would you like to explain the context of those hot dogs? I mean, what was the context? They were just very nice hot dogs. It was like good sausages. Ah, we're not talking about the after, after nomad dinner hot dogs. No, no, Eric, those hot dogs are a secret that never should see the light of day. I mean, the other ones, those were, yeah, I could have champagne with the ones we had
next day. Not with the crappy ones from 7-Eleven at 2 a.m. after a super expensive dinner. Yeah. We're not going to say who, where we were. Yeah. Yeah. No, I fuck with that. Like I can see that you make a nice hot dog, you have a glass of champagne with it. You know, I can, I can see that going. Like, that's cool. I like that.
Okay. Okay. Okay. You know, like also since we're talking about tomatoes, dude, when this kind of seems like when you get like, like a pasta and you know, they use canned tomatoes, which is perfectly okay. But there are these canned tomatoes where the tomato is fried or the tomato is raw. And when you use a raw tomato for a pasta sauce and you don't cook it and you can taste this sour raw for me, I hate that shit.
Yeah. That's understandable. Like I feel like raw, like canned tomatoes have a place on pizza. For sure. You know, like when you get good quality canned tomatoes and you just crush them, like you strain them, you crush them, you make them, you mix them with olive oil, whatever, salt and garlic if you want it. For me, for me, that's the right way to
do it. The right way to put a sauce on a pizza is raw tomato because you're going to bake this a thousand degrees, you know, like, but putting it in a pasta without cooking it, it's just wrong. That's just wrong. And I also don't like fried canned tomatoes that you buy pre-fried in the can and just putting that on top of the sauce with anything else, you know, on top of the pasta. Sorry. It doesn't work. Yeah. It doesn't work. You're cheating.
You're cheating yourself. Exactly. You're cheating and degrading yourself. Don't do that. Now there's shortcuts that are like, that are, that you are able to take, but that's not one of them, you know? And like, yeah, I actually think like there's a, there's a weird stigma around canned tomatoes. Canned tomatoes are not something to look down upon, you know, and also between canned tomatoes, there's like, you know, huge quality differences
or sort of like this really good quality canned tomatoes. I'm actually buying a tomato puree right now from Italy, from the same place that I get my olive oil from, it's called Sandicario. They make a very nice olive oil and they also sell tomato paste and that's basically almost counter-intuitively to what you said. When you open it, it's already super
delicious. It's bright, bright, deep red and super tasty. And basically all you need to do is just bring to a boil one time with some olive oil, add some salt, maybe a little bit of sugar, you know, and that like, that's it. It's already, it's super, super tasty. Yeah. I don't deny that. Of course, if you have like the best tomato paste in the world, probably you can spread that on bread and eat it just like that for sure. Like, but I'm
talking about like generic stuff that you buy anywhere, you know? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I went too far. I went too far with the, with the spreading on the bread. Okay. No, no, no. You know, there's people who do that, you know, that eat like tomato paste on bread. I've met a few people that do that. They use tomato concentrate as a spreading on bread. Okay. Okay. Okay. I've seen people eating stock cubes, you know, like just like candies.
I've seen that as well. Actually. Yeah. Well, I like just licking them consistently until that's really unhinged. That's, that's intervention worthy behavior. Honestly, that is the most crack head junkie behavior I've ever, no, honestly, I'm sorry, but this is basically you just like, you're like, like, ah, I like how all my, my brain is sort of like sparking me with dopamine and like, oh, nice. I like how I can't feel my tongue afterwards, you
know, like sniffing glue. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Yeah. It's on the same level. You know what I hate? I hate these like Instagram chefs who make food based on color. Right. Oh yeah. And like, I'm not talking about sort of like, we all get do and should get like inspired by color and by nature. And there's many great chefs that have also done this, you know, like, yeah, more questionably, a la passat. He's also done just like blue dishes and stuff
like that. If you're a genius, like a la passat, okay. But all these like Instagram chefs, where you see that everything is just selected to have the same shade of color. And you look at the, at the dish and it's completely nonsensical. You're like, who would come up with nobody with the intention of this dish being there for being eaten and enjoyed would have come up with this combination. I absolutely hate that. No, no, no. There are like whole Instagram
accounts. If you see the grid with the, with all the pictures, you see this rainbow of the rainbow. Every picture has all the colors and the spectrum. It's horrible. And also like, like this, this way of thinking of, yeah, this should have like a meaty part, a puree, a crispy part. Yes. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, also all the textures and all the colors and the same dish. And that's, that's what makes fine dining. No, not at
all. Like you're not getting anything. You're not understanding anything. You're not getting anything at all. Yeah. And, and a little agar gel and a little fucking Q and like dehydrated fucking vegetable piece and more is more, more and more of everything. Yeah. That's something that like, I, yeah, that's something that annoyed me also with like younger chefs
when I was teaching, whereas it was sort of like, Oh, I wanted to show a technique. And it's kind of like, well, how about instead of showing technique, you show understanding of technique, you know, as in like what you want to, instead of just listing an amount of things that you can showcase that you can do, you know, why don't you show your ability to use them properly to convey something like, like what we saw at Noma, you know, like there
were dishes where basically what we had was sliced vegetables on top of our cream and that was it. But of course that cream, there was a lot of fucking technique behind that cream. There was this smoked tomato that tasted like a super sweet rich umami smoked tomato sauce, you know, like, and like, I have no idea how they did that, but you know, they're not making like some kind of pyrotechnical work to showcase their technique. Absolutely.
And like for me as a chef, I know everybody's different and that's totally fine. But like for me as a chef, I always wanted to chase that, you know, like even now, you know, I, when I make a dish, we've just recently had a menu change at my restaurant and a lot of things went a lot simpler, you know, like a lot simpler, especially now for winter. And yet I think they're a lot better. And I'm chasing for this sort of like moment where
you just eat and it's kind of filling you up and the balance is perfect. And it's just super satisfying and tasty and like complex in a simplistic way. And like that for me is much more valuable than looking at a plate and be like, oh, wow, you know, it's so colorful because that's so cheap. You know, that's like, that's so superficial, but like actually
when you eat it, the whole purpose, the original purpose of a dish getting totally lost. And like you say, like, you know, I mean, good example are the, the piece, the grilled piece that we ate at Noma. It's just fucking peas in a pot that they grilled over charcoal with a little bit of sauce on top. Of course, the sauce is complex and there's loads of technique in there and how to open the peas and how to grill them. There's loads of technique
there, but it's not the important thing. Like you're not eating the technique, you're eating the dish and the experience that you have really, at the end of the day, you don't really care about the technique. You just care about the experience that you had while eating it. And it was, you know, great. We're going to use Noma as an example for like a really long time, aren't we? I guess the problem with concepts and conceptuality around dishes, you know, because this can really
be like, you know, it can really backfire. For example, things that are over conceptualized, you know, like a dish that if you didn't hear the five minutes story, then you wouldn't enjoy it. You know, for me, that's just wrong. Like a dish should work by itself and the story should help you to enjoy it more. But it should work without the storytelling. Same as a painting, you know, you go to a museum, you should see something and it should provoke
either thoughts or emotions or whatever. And then someone comes and tells you whatever, the biography of the artist or the context or many other things or how they produce the pigments to make the painting. And then you go, oh, now I like it even more. Exactly.
That's something I hate when a dish depends on the storytelling to work. And also when you find like this forced justifications, for example, I remember also like this was like an exam with students and they had the concept of witchcraft or something like that
or the elements of nature. And they presented us a traditional ceviche, you know, and then they started, yeah, here are all the elements because you have the water and earth and fire because of the chili and you know, like they just took something that already existed and you know, like they made it fit into that concept scheme. And for me, that's just bullshit. Which you can do with anything. Exactly. Yeah. Especially if you're talking about the elements
of nature, which are everywhere. We're all made of that. You know, like exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You basically, you can bullshit your way around anything, you know, like with, with words, you can connect anything to anything really, if you just reach far enough. And like, I totally agree. That's just very lazy. You know, what about shares that use too much Santangram whether you thought, do you hate that? I do hate that. Yes. I hate the fact
that people seem to promote as they haven't really grasped how Santangram works. Just use less, you know, just use less and work yourself up bit by bit. Like I used Santangram, I used Santangram a fair bit actually. Like I have a couple of recipes that I kind of bring out fairly often. Like I have this like base recipe of like a fake beurre blanc, but which you can make like a really good butter and stock emulsion. And you have like a base
for a sauce that you can then finish in service. And it's super good. It works super well. And you can do it a lot. Like for example, imagine I have whey, right? Like the byproduct from cheese making. And I add some stock. So I have this whey stock. I bring it up to a boil. I add cold butter, almost equal amounts, salt. And then I add a little bit of Santangram and I mix the cold butter into the hot liquid and it forms a like a beurre blanc and it
stays together as a super good texture. And then you have this like amazing like sauce base, like a butter sauce base that you can just finish in service. You just create like for a long time, I like grated some cheese into it, make this like homey cheese sauce. Super nice. You can use it for like, like right now I've got this like lovage and parsley sauce that I do with set mushrooms. And it's just like so versatile, you know? And that's
where I feel like these molecular ingredients come in really, really well. If you make it about the ingredient, it's like, really boring. But if you use them subtly, you know, and here kind of there, you make them like work to your advantage, then I think it's cool. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. What about, you know what I really hate? And I really hate this like very much. Self flattering behavior. You know, people that walk around,
for example, I get you and say, I'm so good. And this is so good. And especially chefs, you know, like head chefs that walk around and live like, I mean, it's okay to be proud and to, you know, like, but you know, can you try this? And you try it and it's fucking delicious, isn't it? And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the chef is like, give me the chance to give you my opinion, especially when it's not, you know, when it's not, they have that attitude. Oh man. I have to admit, I sometimes do that. But like in a different way, you know, like sometimes in service, I'll like, I'll be cooking, like, like usually when I cook in the kitchen, I'm cooking a hot section like Sausage, and I'll cook like a piece of meat or whatever.
I cut it open, it's like perfect, you know, just like pink from one end to the other. And I'll say, I say stupid shit like, Oh guys, guys, what the fuck? Who cooked the steak? It's me. I, it's me. I cooked the steak. Um, but yeah, anyway, but I totally get what you mean. Like, I mean, but that, but, but you're joking, you know, it's a joke and it's funny and everybody loves and that's super cool. That's okay. But I mean, when people do it
like for real or like for real, that's weird. Yeah. And, and especially if it's not the case, that's what bothers me. Like, um, and you're not getting better with that attitude, you know, you're just being comfortable with the crap you're cooking. You're bullshitting yourself. Exactly. Nothing screams confidence in my eyes than somebody like in, in, in a high position, like a head chef or a sous chef being able to very realistically look
at things and accept them for what they are. You know, like, I can't really remember what it was, but like, it's not so long ago that I made something. It just did not work out the way that I wanted it to. And like, what the fuck am I going to do? Pretend like it's, like it's the most amazing shit ever. Like, no, it just didn't work out. Um, I split the sauce. I fucked up the thing. I, you know, I measured out a pastry recipe wrong, whatever,
you know, and like just own up to it and learn from your mistakes. But like the worst thing, because everybody around that see around you sees it, you know, like you're not bullshitting anybody. If it's not good, you know, then like, you're not going to make people believe it's good just by you telling them everybody's going to know that you're a dipshit. I don't know. I don't know. I've seen people, I've seen people that have this attitude and they
walk around telling everybody how delicious is everything they did. And then, then suddenly I am surprised to see people say, Oh yes. Oh wow. This is really good. And I'm like, what's going on? You know, like, what is this? Yeah. But then they're bootlickers, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Bootlickers. That's something else. I hate bootlickers. I hate it when I notice that, you know, sometimes you have this like, uh, that you notice, especially when you're in like management positions and you have these people and they have a certain attitude that was such a good idea, chef. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And they, um, but then
you notice that, cause if they say that in the immediate, that's fine. Right. If, then if, if they didn't think so, they would say that I don't think that's a really good idea. Right. Then that would be fine. But I had a few chefs now also that were like, kind of like a certain attitude towards you. So it's like, Oh yeah. What are you doing? Oh yeah. Sure. No, no, no. I'll, I'll make sure that gets done. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No
problem. No problem. I'll take care of it. Don't you worry. Right. And then you see them with other people and they're just like super shitty, you know, like super, like they, they pretend like they're always on top of it. And then you see them like slack off and just make really shitty shortcuts and blah, blah, blah. But then when they're like, you know, in front of you, they're sort of like, Oh yeah, no, that shouldn't, that should definitely
not be like this. You know, like, Oh, I don't know who did this. It's, um, pretending like they're really, really engaged and really sort of sharp. But actually once the attention is gone, they'll just as like lacks about it as everybody else. I absolutely hate that because I don't like fake people at all. At least be like openly, openly, you know, like
what, whatever you are, don't bullshit people. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I also hate when you're eating at a table with more people and, and there's someone who doesn't like something, which is perfectly okay, but they make this big drama about it. Like, Oh, Pranz, this is so disgusting. I'm going to puke here in front of everyone. Yeah. You know, and it's like, you know, like, can't you like behave like a normal person? You know, you're,
you're the weirdo here. Not everyone else, you know, like, yeah, totally. And I, like, I also, I really hate that. It's kind of like you explaining like a dish you do, for example, like front of house, you're sort of like, Oh, well, we're gonna have this new dish on. And it's something, Oh, what is it? Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's pigeon. And they're like, Oh, that's disgusting. Like, why vegetarian? I'm like, okay, well, that means that it's
not disgusting. It's just your choice. Right. So like, it's actually our work and kind of like what we're doing here. And exactly. It's disrespectful. Yeah. Let's not refer to things as disgusting. Well, for the people that cooked it and also for, for the people that are enjoying it. You know, if I'm enjoying something, I'm eating something. I don't want someone next to me saying, this is so disgusting. You know, it really has an impact on what you're eating.
This kind of comments. It's like a child's, like a child's behavior. When I was on the airplane the other day, I saw an adult cough, like a childhood cough, you know, like no hand just like, like this, you know, just like open. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you? That's like on the same level, you know, it's just like, just mindless kind
of like, right? Yeah, exactly. People without filters. That's a problem. Exactly. What about, you know, the, the concept of when I see people writing or, you know, things like, like I'm using the concept of Michelin, like these are Michelin trained chef or, or things like molecular gastronomy, that one, you know, like, this is a molecular gastronomy Michelin trained chef. And it's like, for me, you just, you know, like you didn't do a favor to that
chef describing it. Yeah, no, it's terrible. I totally agree. The thing is like, I, what I have a problem with is that I don't know how to not do it, you know, like, because I use the term like, oh, Michelin is Michelin that which is totally, which is very wrong, you know, but at the same time, or like fine dining, I hate the term fine dining. I really
hate it. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's like, what the fuck is fine dining? Like you go, you go to a trattoria in the, in the rural countryside of Piedmont and it, and have an amazing meal. Is that not fine dining? Like what the fuck is fine dining? Like, it's really difficult, but people need to be able to label things. They need to have something to work with. And that's why often they use labels that don't really, if you know what the subject
is about, that don't really fit that subject. They find it's really difficult. No, no, I agree. And yeah, and it's difficult to, yeah, to label things and also to sell yourself, you know, to market yourself as a professional, as a chef and make people understand like what your strengths are. And also if you're working with someone who is, let's say a PR strategist or something like that, who are usually the people that will come and tell you, you should say you're a Michelin trained chef.
Totally. And you know, like, and how to balance this, because I'm not saying you can't do that. I'm just saying there are ways that upset me and ways that I think are legit and okay. No, totally. But the concept of molecular gastronomy, like that concept, what is molecular gastronomy? Are you using molecules? Oh, wow. Okay. And that's something very new. Yeah. Wow. You know, what the fuck, man? I mean, to me, it just means you're using social products these days, you know, as like
your kitchen is based around social products. And pipettes. But because like what it used to be originally is completely different, you know? Well, first of all, that concept is a journalist concept. Yeah. Like never, for example, Ferran Adria, he was talking about deconstructivism, which is a concept he borrowed from architecture. And he that's how he would describe himself. He would say he would deconstruct on a period, a period later, he was talking about something else.
I would say like that whole family of cooking style, I would describe it as modernist cuisine. That's like a concept I feel comfortable using, even though that was later introduced in Seattle. But molecular gastronomy for me is just plain bullshit. And also when people ask about it, oh, this is like a very molecular dish, you know, like it has molecules. You know, actually, you're giving me an idea now.
I think I should just come up with like a bullshit term for like the sort of cooking that we do and just use that, you know? Of course. Yeah. And just be sort of like, oh, yeah, of course it's blah, blah, blah gastronomy, you know? And then when people ask, it's sort of like, oh, you don't know what blah, blah, blah gastronomy is. Let me explain it to you. Avant-garde classique? You don't know what avant-garde classique is?
And then I'll just explain it to them sort of like, well, it's highly regional, highly seasonal blah, blah, blah, inside the regions of blah, blah, blah, you know? I mean, like, actually, I think that's very, that's what everybody should do. Actually, you should create your own label to describe something that you do and words that you feel comfortable with and that they represent you. Get off trying to put all the hashtags, all the trendy hashtags on your CV, you know? Yeah. That's very true.
It's very difficult. Well, Eric, do you have anything else that you hate? No, I just wanted to say stay hateful kids and stay in school. I think that after talking with so much hate, we should say a couple of things that we love just to break out of the energy. Nah. I love making this podcast with you, for example, Eric. Come on. Don't say those things. I won't believe them. Come on. And I love pancakes in the morning. That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks.
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