You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Pot Luck Food Talks. Today, we have a very special guest, Alex Touceda. She's right now at Harvard in Boston, and we're going to talk a little bit about her development and her chef career, which is something quite unique. Nice to have you here. Yes, thank you. So, Alex, how did you start cooking? When were your first steps? Was it at home? Was it with your parents, your grandparents? I don't know. My start is
like super basic. It's probably like how people start thinking about being a chef. But basically, when I was a kid, I used to play cocinitas, which basically means like little kitchen stuff. That was like my game. I used to have like this room in my house full of games for me and my sisters. And for me, it was this corner. full of like, I don't know, equipment for the kitchen, but
in a little form, I guess. One memory that I do have when I felt I started like to being able to, I don't know, understand what actually cooking meant was one time that I decided to make rice like my father did, because my father is the one that cooked at home. And my father used to like, I don't know, put oil in a pot, put a garlic on it, heat it up, put the rice, heat it up. And that was my knowledge as a kid of making
rice. I guess I forgot that you boil rice. But basically I was like, oh my God, I want to do the same thing. I went to the kitchen. I took all the things, all the ingredients. I went to my room. I put the heat up, full summer. I opened the windows. I was like, oh, let's cook in the heat. You know what I mean? I put the pot on top of the heater. I started like frying my rice, my raw rice. And my father came and he was like, What is going on? And I was like, haha, I'm making
rice. So I guess that's when my father took me and he started teaching me how to properly cook. Ah, super nice. It's cheaper than putting the heat. I also have one of my first memories of cooking is also with my dad. And it was doing this potato pancakes that you find in... In France and Germany, in France you call them rösti, and in Germany they're kartoffelpuffer, that you shred potatoes and you do like a flat cake. And
I remember doing that as a kid. I was standing next to the kitchen, you know, like as a little kid. Same thing, same thing. But I started there, I guess, yeah. And then what about professional cooking? At some point you had to decide, okay, like I will go to a culinary university. That was a challenge, I think. I was super sure that
I wanted to be a chef. But then I guess in the last two years of high school, I got into this, like, I don't know, mindset that maybe I had to look for a different career that was a little more easy, I guess. My father was really against this idea of being a chef, not because he didn't want me to be whatever I want in life, but also
because he was worried. uh like it's a hard i don't know i'm sorry but it's a hard like discipline you put a lot of hours it's not that well paid um so in that moment i had like this crisis of oh my god i do love science i am super good at it um i have these crazy grades i could do whatever i want um but yeah And you decided to go to culinary school. I decided to go to the school that didn't even ask me for a grade. You know what I mean? But yes, that's basically it. Again, how was
it? How was the experience in culinary school? I loved it. I did it in Barcelona in a school that is called FET and I loved it. Oh my God, I loved it so much. It was so fun. I felt so good with myself. I felt so creative. I don't know how to explain it, but I don't know. Yeah, I think I was in the right place and that's why I loved it so much. I had a great experience. And during your time at school, you also did some internships and restaurants. Were these
like classic Catalan restaurants? I actually started with one that is better not to mention because it was a catastrophe. It was bad. I started with one and it made me feel so bad. I think my heart was first broken there. Okay, we love these kind of stories here at the podcast. Yeah, yeah. Did somebody throw pants at you? Somebody mess with your parents or something? No, it was bad. I don't know. It was like the relationship they had between them was bad. People crying
in the kitchen all the time. Bad comments, really passive -aggressive people. I don't know. They made me drink coffee. I was not a drinker of coffee. So I felt really anxious because I already had the anxiety of being there in this like super weird place and then full of coffee because they didn't feel like having people that didn't drink coffee in the kitchen. It was crazy. It was crazy. I was, you know what I mean, I was 18 years old.
My first kitchen, I was in love with the kitchen because they actually were so good cooking, which is the saddest part. But who was the bad guy here? Was it like a crazy chef? It was a crazy chef. It was the chef. The rest of the people, they were nice, but they were like, again, bad. I didn't even, yeah, I don't know. My father took me out of that place. I couldn't do it. I was just there. Depressed and skinny like a spaghetti. Been there, done that. Yeah, absolutely.
So that was actually my first, I don't know.
heartbroken situation thing with the kitchen but then i moved on i went to a place that was super traditional but they were super well done in barcelona that is called la taberna del clinic um it's next to disfrutar actually okay i've heard about this place yeah it's so good yeah it's really good it's really traditional they work with like galician product which is where i'm from it was next to my house because i used to live there in el sample And that was like,
I don't know, coming back to terms with the kitchen and, I don't know, being in love again for, I don't know, with myself in the kitchen, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So that restaurant meant that, like coming back again in the way of, I don't know, loving being in the kitchen. And then you went to Casa Soya? Yes, yes. Bueno, Casa Soya is next to my house, my hometown. Galicia, right? Yes. I guess my thought was that I wanted
to try one Mussolini star restaurant. After like this traditional place, I wanted to see like more fine dining. And it was amazing. It was amazing to see also like the differences between them. I also think experiences in the kitchen are a lot because of the house, but also because of who you, I don't know, like who do you meet in that place in that specific moment. The person that was in charge of me was Jose. It was an amazing chef. He actually has a restaurant now,
Teibe, with Lidia. And it was amazing. I learned so much from him. Casasoya is very product -driven, right? Yes, but I think Galician food is like that. I guess so. I think a little bit how people in Galicia cook is like that, right? Like super clean products. not much to it because we have plants. That's it. I don't know, like the fish is just like perfectly cooked, but you don't
have to add much to it. Yeah. So it's a little bit like that, but it had some technique, some fine dining kind of technique, which I appreciated in that moment. I don't know. It was super fun. And then you went to Celler de Can Roca. Was that a highlight in your restaurant life track? Or was it a complete deception? No. Oh, my God. I'm in love with Celler de Can Roca. I've heard from everybody that has worked there or is still
working there the same thing. No, no. It was the restaurant that I would fight to stay in. COVID came. So I had to leave. But no, it was good. I mean, I spent four months first in the research area, which was my first like, I don't know. It was my first experience as doing research in gastronomy. I was working in... Did you meet Joan Carbó? No. No? Okay. He was a guy that, yeah, he was doing like spirits. Ah, sí, sí, sí. Yes, yes, yes. Of course. They were doing
like this, what was it? Algarroba drink. Can it be? I don't know. I met him because he has a company in Bolivia, and I worked in Bolivia for a while. Oh, wow. Yeah, he was making Bolivian tequila and Bolivian gin. No, not tequila, gin and vodka. Oh, my God. I don't know. There were so many people in that restaurant, I have to tell you. It was a huge family. And how was the experience? Why was it so nice? So first, the research was amazing. Like when I did research,
I was like, wow, this is amazing. The people are so nice. I met so much, so many friends. And then I went to the kitchen for six months and there is when I fell in love. I think first, I don't know, like the ambience there, like the
people that were there, they are so nice. But also I think we are so many stagers at the same time because we're like... maybe 60 people doing uh internship in the restaurant it is incredible but at the same time i do understand you know i mean like it's a summer camp with these people that are amazing because they're all into the same things and they want to learn i don't know as much as they can from the restaurant but but also from each other because actually people
that do internships in lcj they are good you know i mean they are already good they don't need the internship I know exactly what you mean. I spent some time in Mugaritz, for example, 20 years ago. And yeah, I was surrounded by super talented people. And I think you learn as much from the workers, from the hired workers as from the other study years. So that was amazing. And then imagine like 60 people being super friends for six months and cooking. For each other, outside,
inside. You know what I mean? It was amazing. Yeah, yeah. You also cooked a lot. Did you have like an apartment for three years? Yeah, they give us like the apartment food. And basically we would like all meet in the apartments and cook for each other. Yes, or go and, I don't know, try restaurants or, I don't know. It was amazing. People from all over the world, right? Yes, from all over the world. I have a friend
in New York right now. That just, again, opened a restaurant, too, that we met in El Seller. And we are friends. And now we are close, but we're in the other side of the ocean. Super nice. And did they do your thesis for the university there in El Seller? What was the topic? It was a random topic. It was about agriculture, actually.
I was studying, like, how we could bring back plants that were forgotten because, bueno, how we live, we are basically losing diversity, right, in the plants, in the way we are, like, doing agriculture. And they were trying to bring back those old, I don't know, plants that were getting lost into the garden that they have and try to see, like, the possibilities to create new dishes
or new applications for them. But basically it was, like, it came from the brothers, the Roca brothers wanting to, like, recreate recipes from their... And they realized that some of the ingredients were not available anymore because they stopped planting them. So we started working with an institution that is called Fundación Miquel Agustí, that they are actually doing research in agriculture
in Catalonia. And we were basically trying to study how that plant will grow in the conditions that we have nowadays in the area and the possibilities that it has. It was cool. I also wrote a book. You wrote a book? Bueno, I didn't write it myself, but I was helping. They were doing this book for kids that it was like actually on food and science. How crazy. Life is crazy. They were writing a book that was like to teach kids science through cooking. And I was like helping developing
the recipes. That was also cool. At what point did you... turn more into science? Was there like a curve at some point? I think science was always part of my trajectory. Your understanding of cooking? I think so. Of course, it sounds a little bit like, haha, I'm so cool. I always have science in my head. But no, I really think so. I don't know. I remember like in school. I used to read so many books of food and science when I don't think it was a thing back then.
I had this book that was called El secreto de los pucheros, which is like the secret of a tube tube stews. Yeah, like soups, soup stews. And I was in love with that book. I remember the book said that you can make a mayonnaise with only one egg that could hold 24 liters of oil. Okay, that's interesting. That's interesting. I don't know if it's true. Maybe I like it so much. It was an old book. But I was always interested in science, I think. One of the things that made
me change is the master that I did. I was really trying not to lose my connection to the kitchen, I guess. I was really afraid of stepping out of the kitchen. But at some point in the master, well, I don't know. What's the master you're talking about? A master is a master that I did in Masculinary Center. Ah, okay. The master in science and gastronomy. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Juan Carlos Arrolella, which was the coordinator of the master, he also like teached class in food science, which was basically the book that I was in love with, but more seriously as a class. And it was like the maximum nerd in that class. I loved it so much. Oh my God. I loved it so much. And I guess... In that point, I remember telling Juan Carlos when I was looking for my internship that I didn't want to step out of the kitchen. I was super afraid of it, blah,
blah, blah. And then he offered me in a random moment to come to Harvard. And I don't know, I answered something like, let me think about it for a sec. Immediately, of course, I said yes. I was just being goofy or silly. I guess that's when I started being like, okay, I guess I'm doing science. That's when. And what did you do at Harvard in the first place? The first thing is you come here and you basically teach
a class. Well, if you're lucky, I was super lucky and they offered me to teach a class that is called science and cooking. Yeah, I started following this class like... Maybe 15 years ago or at least 10 years ago. I remember because this class was first launched by Pere Castells. I think he was like a collaborator or something. He's still a collaborator, yeah. And the first 10 lecturers, guest lecturers, were all Catalan chefs. Yes, friends of Pere, you know. Exactly, it was a
club of Catalan chefs. And I remember it was super cool because you would listen, I don't know, to José Andrés or friends of Ferran or José Andrés talking about gelatins or, I don't know, David Chang talking about miso and so on and on. And it was super interesting. I watch a lot of those classes on YouTube. That's cool. At least 10 years ago. I think like 12, around 12 years ago. That's amazing. Now I'm the person that puts those videos up. That's so funny. Basically.
But it's cool. The class is basically trying to, well, now Pia Sorensen teaches the class and they are trying to teach science through food because food has this ability of, I don't know, showing cases of scientific topics in an easier way, basically. I don't know, like every week they have a topic, a scientific topic, I don't know, like the diffusion of molecules,
the, I don't know, elasticity. fermentation first they teach it in a really scientific way then a chef comes and like he teaches or she teaches the topic in the gastronomy world and then they have to do a lab where they combine those two so they combine the equation that is scientific and they combine the experiment that is food and then they understand the topic basically ideally Yeah, I remember when I watched it, it was first, there's like a short part, which at
least back then, which is very technical, like explaining some formula or some rules or whatever in physics or chemistry or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the chef comments, which is a fun part. The one part. It depends what kind of nerd you are. Yes, this is the same, but instead of like they have one day that is full science
and one day that is full cooking. The students, the lectures got so famous because people like pretty famous people came that at the beginning they were just closed for students, but then they got so famous that... people had to open it for the public. So that's why... Ah, so like open to the citizens in Boston. They can go to the lecture. Yes. And that's why... Ah, that's so cool. See, those are like the science and
cooking lecture series. But that's... It just grew out of like people sneaking in the room and making the room packed with people. So they open it like another day where it's just for public. Ah, that's so cool. It is cool. Have you hosted some... interesting chefs or scientists during your time there? Many, many, many, many, many, many, many. For instance, this year we had Alex Atala from Brazil. What did he do? What did he cook? And what was the... Pau de queijo.
He cooked pau de queijo. Some, I don't know, things that he's doing with tapioca in the restaurant. But then he basically was a little bit more explaining his philosophy in the kitchen. That actually was not attached to a topic because we always have one chef that is not attached to a topic, if that makes sense. Also, it happened the same
way. Malena and Pia from Central, they came, but again, that was not attached to a topic because usually, I don't know, the most famous person just comes and speaks about the restaurant and things that they are doing in that moment. But this year, for instance, we had a pizzaiola from New York explaining the science behind the pizza dough. And the scientific topic was elasticity. So the students had to measure the elastic modulus of the dough and things like that. I don't know.
I haven't watched those videos in a long time. I'll do like an update to watch some. I would like to watch that pizza video. You should. I think the most incredible thing for me that makes me more like, oh my gosh, I'm here in Harvard doing weird things, is that I host Haron Magee, which is like for me. Oh, that's incredible. Like for those that are not aware of this, for chefs, Haron Magee is like a little god, no? Maybe I'm being crazy, but he's like who brought
science to gastronomy, basically. Yeah, he published, I would say at least in the 80s, maybe in the 70s, I'm not sure, like his major work, which is on science and cooking, which is a thick book. And you will look for, I don't know, boiling and you will have like an article. It's like an encyclopedia about cooking processes scientifically explained. Yes. And he did it out of nothing. Like he was not sure that was going to work at all. And now he's like... Yeah, it was an independent
project, right? He on his own in a library, writing this, documenting all these processes. Super cool. So it's amazing because I had the chance of talking to him many times. And for me, it's like, wow, I'm with a famous person. It's the only feeling that I... Well, whatever. It's cool. It's really cool. And what did he talk about? We talked about life, actually. But I mean like in the class. In the class, many, many things.
He comes every year. This year he talked about aromas because he had a new book about flavor, which is called Nose Dive. And it's like the chemistry behind all the flavor molecules in food. It's quite incredible. So he talked about that. In the past years, he always talks about people's research that is also with him. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, I remember. Listening to him talking at that class about MSG and debunking the dangers of MSG. That's good. It's good that
he did that. And I also remember him talking about transglutaminase. The enzyme. Ah, sí. Yeah, also explaining that it's not harmful at all. He's an advanced person and a beautiful person, too. And now, but you went in the first time to finish your master's there or? To do my thesis, which was also something that I did at the same time. Okay. And what was the topic? Amazake. Ah, that's so cool. It is cool. Yeah, I had a
lot of amazake in Japan. I love it. Really? People don't really know about amazake, I feel like. Well, I didn't know much about it. I mean, every time you start getting into fermentation and you learn what koji is and you know the products that are made with koji, then suddenly you go like, okay, what is this? I know what sake is. I know what sake is. Who's this one? Right. It is true. Phil, the co -host of the show, who's not here today, he recently did like a... a dessert
with amasake. I don't know if the video is published already, but he did a video like a tartelette with amasake filling. I want to see that. I did a mochi with amasake. Also super nice. Because it's rice. It's rice in rice. Yeah, of course. I remember having one with matcha tea, which was super nice. It's such a special drink, I think. Yeah, like, how would you describe it? Because it's like a kind of like a milkshake, but then you have like this yeasty aromas in
the background. Okay, that's a little hard. There are two kinds of amasake, though. One is called koji amasake, which is made with koji, and then you have sake kasu amasake, which is the one that is made with the sake leaves, so like the solids from when you strain sake. You use that and you make amasake. That's the one that maybe
is yeasty. because it has this the other one shouldn't um but how i would describe it for me amazake is like everything you thought about fermentation is wrong you know like if you think about fermentation you think about these things that are like funky aromas right a little bit almost like party if you pickle some radishes then who opens the jar i don't know uh but it's not me um And this for me is like, first of all, it's a super quick fermented process, which basically
maybe last eight hours, 24 tops. But then also like the transformation, like you put the rice, put the koji, put it in the oven, leave it there for overnight. You come back and suddenly it's like a perfume that is like flowers and fruits, pineapple. I don't know, sweet, a little sour, but extremely sweet. And it's like, please, I want a perfume for myself with that. Which is weird to happen in fermentation if you think about it. Usually things, yeah, smell funky.
Yeah, like, but I think like some of those aromas you described are the aromas I usually describe at Koji, like pineapple, this kind of thing. Yes, of course. But maybe not soy sauce, you don't see that, you know what I mean? Because of the main ingredient, I don't know. that you don't see those smells. In the koji, of course, but usually koji then is used to make something that changes a little bit in that profile, no? With tamasake, I feel it makes it more strong.
Yeah, I remember having that for breakfast every time I could in Japan. It's good. I love it. I don't even know why I started with tamasake. I think... The reason why is because a person that I really loved showed me how to do a masake, and I think that's why I fell in love with it.
And then, of course, because it's a beautiful process, and of course, because doing research with something that is not taking me eight months to ferment is nice, you know, because you can actually get results at some point in your life. But I think that's the reason why, yeah. Super cool. So you finished your master and you're doing now your doctoral thesis. My PhD, because I didn't have enough. You have not enough. You're doing it in gastronomic sciences. Yes. I'm still
working in fermentation. Now I'm doing research in a fermented beverage from an indigenous community. And basically I'm trying to understand the microbial. community that drives that fermentation process, how it changes from place to place, but also through the fermented period of time. I don't know, the volatiles that are created, the changes, physicochemical changes in the drink. But I think it's just, I don't know. I guess the main goal is just like trying to protect traditional indigenous
knowledge. That's super cool. And when will it be published? Do I have a look at it? Yeah, because I cannot say much. Hopefully, in December, hopefully. Okay. I have many papers coming, so it's like, I'm not sure how we're going to do it yet, if all at the same time or little by little, but I'm doing a trip in less than a month. I'm going to be doing this research for a month in the field place. A secret location. A secret location. Somewhere in the south of the world. Somewhere
in the south of the world. I'm going to be doing some weird things with five pets and swaps. Will you come to San Sebastian for your presentation? I hope so. I want to eat pintos before that. Let me know. Let me know. I'll be around. I would think so. Yeah. Super cool. Well, Alex, thank you so much for your time. Bueno, thank you for inviting me. That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast
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