Hi everyone. Welcome to pot luck food talks. I'm here with Mike Less, Mr. Less. And we're going to talk about poached eggs. Phil, what are your ideas on poached eggs? Do you think it's something that is... Are they still relevant or they're outdated? What are your thoughts on poached eggs? I don't know a single chef who likes making poached eggs. Okay. I feel like poached eggs for some reason, like a poached egg is nice, you know. But have you ever met anybody who actually likes poaching eggs?
No. And for me, this is one of those things that you get to see a lot like in culinary school. Maybe if you work at a breakfast service at the hotels. Or at brunch places. And that's it. Besides that, I think most people today do this like sous vide, low temperature cooked eggs. Which is something that I do at home once in a while. You know, like this 80, 75 to 80 Celsius, 40 minutes. And you crack the whole egg and you have like a liquid yolk. I think that's... An Onsen egg. Onsen egg.
That's it. Yeah, no, that's what it's called. Okay. I didn't hear that expression. Yeah, you know why it's called that, right? Yeah, these are the baths, right? Like this hot bath in Japan. The natural hot springs in Japan. And that's what I used to just let eggs chill out in the bath and let them like poach away. Obviously, it's not like 80 something degrees because you'd be a fucking, you know, human boiled potato if you get in that. But yeah, Onsen eggs are really nice.
But yeah, poached eggs. I feel like poached eggs are the bastards of the egg world. You know, like we can all get behind scrambled egg. Yeah, great. You know, I don't know how many fucking times I've heard Gordon Ramsay talk about scrambled eggs, which by the way, look like a fucking puree of eggs. I hate... Okay, look, this is a little rant about scrambled eggs.
I am so over professional chefs pretending like stirring your fucking egg at like the lowest temperature on your pan like a fucking maniac is the best way to eat scrambled eggs. Once after you just have this like this barely set puree of eggs, you know, I'm really like in favor of eggs that are cooked so they're not super cooked through. But this like puree with no texture is just basically like a like a sludge. Nah, it has to be somewhere in between.
Exactly. I agree. I like this omelette that are cooked on the outside and almost liquid inside. I think that's kind of like the sweet spot. Yeah, for sure. There's a big difference between raw egg and like medium rare egg, right? And I feel like often people, they like under do like they kind of mistake this like, for example, with a Spanish tortilla, you know, like everybody who knows anything about anything would agree that a tortilla shouldn't be cooked all the way through.
And if you disagree, then get off this fucking podcast and get a life, you know, like often I feel like, especially when I've seen chefs make tortillas, they like severely undercooked them. And they say like, oh, this is how it's supposed to be. It's like, no, bitch, it's not. It's like there's a difference between the egg bean, like barely warm and raw to be just at the right point where it's still runny. I'm not I'm not with you on this one. No, I think that's your German side speaking out.
How dare you? I think here in Spain, that's that's the way to go. You want your tortillas to be I mean, you don't want them to be liquid. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. No, no, no. But but like there are people that make tortillas that are liquid on the inside. And for me, I would say from the top five best I've ever tried, I would say three are like that. Yeah. But there's a difference between like raw liquid and creamy, a little bit further still liquid, but warm.
And like something has happened. You know, yeah, OK, I agree with you on that. You don't want a soup around your tortilla, like which is, for example, OK, with Basque cheesecake. I think if you have like a liquid around like a Spanish style cheesecake, that's fine. That's OK. That's I won't be against that. That's actually something I like, to be honest, if it's really runny inside. I mean, creamy should be like the standard.
But if it's liquid, I think it's a million times better than if it's really set. No, 100 percent. I totally agree with that. But I think that's a really good comparison because there I am totally with you. But actually, people do exactly the same. People say like, oh, a Basque cheesecake should be like really almost barely set, almost a little bit runny inside. But then they take that too far and they undercook it severely.
They slice it. It's like soup. And they're like, no, it's supposed to be like that. It's like, no, it's not like that. That's what I'm saying that I like that. And I also tried, for example, a flan. How do you say a creme caramel? Is it in English or a custard like a Spanish creme caramel? The one from Albert Adria. He used to have this restaurant in 1846, I think was the name, when El Barrigou was at its peak. And someone got me the recipe from that flan. That's the best flan I've ever tried.
And that's actually a flan that you see it and it's the whole thing. And then you break it with your spoon and you have like a creamy soup all over the place. And I think that's cool. You know, I do like that. It's like the Spanish, the Spanish chao long bao, the Spanish soup dumpling. Actually, what we were just talking about, like, so Spanish cheesecake or Basque cheesecake is something that is around 20 years old. Not more than that.
Like what is today known as a standard Basque cheesecake or burnt cheesecake, the one you do with baking paper, the one from La Vina that became world famous. So little, only 20 years. Yeah. Recently, yeah, like for me, this is really interesting because it's something that became world famous. I just saw Basque cheesecakes on my recent trip to Japan and it's something that people do at homes.
And if you Google La Vina cheesecake, you will find it in Istanbul or in Chicago or, you know, like it's something crazy. And when I think about it, I think it's part of the, how to say, like of the Spanish archetype of things that slice should be running in the middle. Because that's something you see in the tortillas or that it should be rare in the middle. There's something you see in the steaks, the way they're cooked here in the Basque country.
And then suddenly, okay, let's make a cheesecake. So it should be running in the middle. And for me, I don't know if it's related, but there is a clear correlation between these things, you know. That's interesting. We should pull the thread and see what it is that culturally makes Spanish people severely undercooked things. Especially egg products. Yeah, this is something, for example, you can't do that in Germany.
You open a, because I work in at least three or four Spanish restaurants in Germany. And you can't undercook a tortilla in Germany. Like people go crazy like, oh, wow, someone else. You want to kill me. You're going to die. I'm going to die. Help. Yeah, no, it's true. It's, yeah, it's so strange, you know. Also what people feel like is like a given. They're like, no, you can't do this, you know. And it's kind of like, well, you definitely can. And other cultures definitely do also.
And not just other cultures from like across the globe, but like in Europe. So broaden your horizon a little bit. What about xiaolongmushi and this kind of like savory custard? I just recently discovered that there is this steamed egg that is Chinese. And that's basically a xiaolongmushi. It's just like the cool version. They use water instead of dashi. But it makes completely sense.
I mean, like I recently started making the comparison that China is to Asia, what Rome is to Europe, that there are so many things that influence the whole continent because it used to be like a larger empire or that they, I don't know, establish language, calligraphy, religion, many, many things that have spread all over the continent. And I guess this is one of those things, steamed eggs, Chinese style. Yeah. And you see it in a lot of different versions in Asia. Like I think it's super nice.
I think steaming eggs is one of the nicest ways of cooking eggs. xiaolongmushi, well made, is a mega delicious thing. It's got such an interesting texture. And if you think of it, it's really great. I think, you know, talking about eggs, because if you haven't guessed yet, this episode is about eggs. But by the way, could you shortly explain what xiaolongmushi is? For people who don't know.
A xiaolongmushi, in my understanding, is a mixture of egg and liquid in a certain proportion that is then steamed until it's barely set. It's almost like an egg tofu. That's how I would describe it. I completely agree. For me personally, a great xiaolongmushi is like silky tofu, right? Like, of course you can make it more firm and whatnot.
But like, if you have the right proportion from liquid to egg and you just about steam it right and you let it rest a little bit and you eat it fresh, it's such a unique texture. It's so silky and slippery and delicate. It's actually one of my favorite things that I discovered when I was in Asia. There was a completely new experience.
And like even such a simple xiaolongmushi like just a good egg and a good broth can be a clear chicken soup, can be a shrimp consomme, can be a dashi, can be anything, right? The basic recipe that I... Why? Do you ever cook xiaolongmushi at home or... At home not so much, but I actually have something that's similar, that is European that I'll get to in a second, which my mom used to make and it made me make the connection and I hadn't thought about it for a really long time.
But yeah, my basic recipe for xiaolongmushi is one whole egg. Important is that you whisk it and you strain it, yeah, so it's super, super fine, to 100 milliliters of liquid. If you want it to really set nicely, you have to mixture just warm, yeah, because if you have it cold, you put it in a dish, you steam it, the outside cooks quicker than the inside. And then you just steam it for a maximum 10 minutes, depending on how much you make. It's usually like a portion. A cha wan is a tea cup.
So usually you steam it in these gai wan tea cups. Of course, cha is tea, yeah. And yeah, and that's it. And you eat it hot. In Ryugin, I saw it the first time really in Ryugin, is a classic from Chef Seiji Yamamoto. He had a sweet corn xiaolongmushi, it's made with a sweet corn puree. And it was served with uni on top, big spoon of uni. Sea urchin. And yeah, sea urchin, chives, like quite a lot of chives, and deep fried shallots crumbled up.
And the flavor mixture of the sweet corn with the egg, the uni and this like fried shallot flavor was amazing. It was so fucking delicious. I guess what makes it so attractive, and in most of the cases we're talking about like flan and xiaolongmushi and these costards and this thing, is this particular, also in Basque cheesecake, I would say, is this a jellyfying power that the egg has that makes this soft gumminess that you find like... Like silken tofu you mentioned.
I'm pretty sure that thing that I tried in Chenkenichi's restaurant, I thought it was like a strong flavored tofu that at the end was, they call it foie gras pudding. I'm pretty sure that was like egg base because that was exactly the texture. Fuck yeah. That sounds amazing honestly. Fogra xiaolongmushi sounds intense. With crab and shark fin soup. Yeah, fuck yeah. So nice. One of the nicest xiaolongmushis that I've like made and eaten, I've made with a really clear, intense chicken consomme.
And just like that, like nicely seasoned chicken consomme, I said the egg, I make it super simple. I like mix it together. I whisk it. I strain it. I let it rest a little bit. I fill it into the bowl. I steam it. And then you take it out straight or hot. You top it with whatever you want. But even just like that, it's so nice. It's such a luxurious texture. Last year, no, two years ago, I was serving it with grilled mushrooms. With like a sort of mushroom garum glaze on top. It was very tasty.
Yeah, you just brought me to the next point. What about egg-based sauce or even just like yolk-based sauce? Like the most basic one I would say is yolk with salt, like Gambara style eggs. For a lot of people, that's like mind-blowing. Like, yeah. No, seriously. Using just plain yolk with salt as a sauce. Yeah, because what is egg yolk? It's fat, you know? Yeah, like I couldn't answer that question like technically. Okay, quick break. But yeah, albumin. It's water, lipid and protein.
So lipid is fat. Yeah. So it's basically an emulsion, no? It's an emulsion of water, fat and protein. And it's got lots of vitamins. It's got essential fatty acids and minerals, which if you know anything about food, you know, minerals and all those sorts of things, and like fatty acids, like nutrients and minerals make things taste good. And fat is always nice, you know? And so it's naturally creamy, but it's not super fatty. It's almost like a natural mayonnaise if you think about it.
Yeah, like I remember as a kid, I would always dip my fries into the good yolks that would be in the, you know, like in a fried egg. Yeah. Which is also a topic in itself. It's delicious. Fried eggs. Fried eggs. You know, like, you know, like that's for me. I wouldn't dare to say that I can properly execute a fried egg like a pro. Like, I won't say that. No. I would, like, for example, because I've seen the way they're done here in Spain, like they're, so to say, they're immersed in oil.
Yes, they're basically deep fried. And for me, that's the best way where you have like this whole thing and it's liquid in the middle, but also crispy on the outside. And it's not plain as when you do it in a pan. It's this oval shape kind of thing. I guess it's not that difficult, but I haven't done a hundred of those so that I don't master them, you know? Yeah, but that's the thing.
I remember when I was part of an opening of a restaurant in Mexico, that's really something that I noticed intensely because, you know, we opened two restaurants almost at the same time. First, we opened one, it was breakfast and lunch. And then we opened the one on the floor above, which was just dinner, just tasting menu, just carte blanche. And so I hired, like, we hired all these chefs for the, like, tasting menu restaurant, right?
And the idea was like, okay, we're going to open the first restaurant first. We're going to get, like, this is what they were saying, kind of like, we're going to get, like, more, like, breakfast and lunch chefs in. And then all the, like, the top guys are going to go upstairs, right? So it was really funny seeing them at the opening, cooking breakfast, and you had these guys that were, like, applying as sous chefs and stuff. They couldn't fry a fucking egg, you know?
You could maybe do one, yeah, but then the orders come in. And then, you know, and I was sending out, like, I was standing at the parcel, I was sending back eggs and I was like, man, like, there's a, there's a raw spot here. It's like too burnt on the bottom, blah, blah, blah. And it's kind of, and I was like, are you looking at yourself right now? Like you, you're frying eggs, you know?
And, you know, to be fair, frying an egg correctly is not super simple, because you have, there's a lot of variables. Not at all. There's a lot of variables. No, no, no. I remember reading an autobiography of Daniel Boullou, and he would say that he would make chefs cook a fried egg on their trial day. And I remember maybe reading the same from Marco Pierre White, you know? Like, it's really like something that, because also it says a lot, you know?
Like it's something simple, but it presents a lot of who you are as a chef. What are your skills? 100%. What's the way you work? How's the way you organize your station and everything? You can measure all those kinds of things. Plus if you can properly execute a fried egg, which I said, something I wouldn't say I can't, I would have to practice if I had like an opening like that or a trial day. Yeah, I mean, let's talk it through, right? It's like you're, you're applying somewhere.
This guy, or like, you know, you tell somebody, hey, make me a fried egg. I want to assess your skills. So first of all, like you said, how do you set up your section? Do you have the egg just fucking lying next to the stove? Do you have something to crack it on? Do you have something to throw the shells into? Like, what do you have? Do you take something with you? Then which pan do you use? The heat control.
Because I would say I would start a fried egg on a high heat and then lower the heat, right? Because what is it for me? Like, what is a good fried egg? I want there to be a little bit of color on the bottom. I don't want it to stick. I want the white to be cooked all the way through to the top. And I want the egg yolk to be nice and runny for me. Yeah. Henry, what about crispy borders? That's also something I like. I like it.
Yeah, I think people sometimes overdo it because if you have a fried egg and it's too crispy on the bottom, it gets a little bit tough. So I think it should be like a nice sort of like deep golden brown. But if also you take it too long and you cook the egg white for too long, it gets really gummy. It should set all the way, but that's it. There's a difference between cooked egg white and cooked egg white. If you just set it and it's cooked through, it's really bouncy and blah.
And then you cook it more, more, more, more, more. It doesn't stay the same. It gets firmer and firmer and firmer. And like it gets kind of rubbery. So there, and then it's kind of like, how do you regulate the heat? How are you paying attention? Do you maybe start with oil? What oil do you start with? Do you at some point maybe add a knob of butter? Do you maybe baste the egg white a little bit? Do you maybe even put a lid on at the end to kind of steam it a little bit? Add a splash of water.
It's what the Japanese do a lot. They fry it. On top it's still raw. Touch of water. Lid, 10 seconds, out, done. And that's the thing. Like from all the variables you mentioned, you could do like perfect fried eggs. Just with one of those variables, you know, like with lid or without, or with oil, without butter, you know, like all of those are like paths that you can take and do like a perfect fried egg, you know? Yeah. They're like the different approaches. 100%.
Yeah. Same with everything else. Same with omelette, same with scrambled eggs, like we said before. You know, I mean, like are you... What about this, going back to the yolk sauces? Yes. This style of sauce is like the one we had at Noma, which was like umami rich egg yolk that you ended up drinking it like a yogurt. That's like a very Japanese thing, right? Like these are like cured egg yolks with soy sauce, something like that? Yeah, I mean, so... So it's cured? Yeah, so it's cured.
You basically make a mixture of certain things, you know, can be sake, mirin, soy sauce, etc. Kombu. And then you submerge the egg, it gets cured from the salts and the acid and the cure. You cure it for a certain amount of time, then you take it out and it gets very waxy, almost like it's cooked. That's mega delicious. And so these then obviously if you mix them and strain them, you only have the yoghurt like a dipping sauce.
And I've seen it mainly in Japanese food, but I'm sure like a lot of things, it comes from, you know, the fantastic vast world of Chinese cooking. And is it, is it just cured, right? It's never... Never cooked? No, never heated. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's other recipes also, but like the ones that I've made and all the ones that I've seen, it's cured.
You make the mixture, usually you boil it one time, you let it cool down, you submerge your eggs for like 30 minutes to, you know, an hour, depending, you know, depending on how strong your, your brine is. But I mean, that, that is amazing. You know, just that soy cured egg yolk on nice rice is one of the most delicious things ever. Absolutely. You just remind me of, I had a first in New York and recently also in Kyoto, like a traditional Japanese breakfast.
And so we had this incredible steamed rice, which I don't cease to be amazed with the rice culture in Japan, but they, they come with the pot and they open it and they presented that as if it was like a suckling pig with a, an apple in its mouth, you know, but it's rice and everybody's like, wow. And then you get this rice. Also something that impressed me is, you know, the sticky bottom that you find at the pot. So which is like a, like, like a socarat, like a cookie.
And when I tried it and I really want to understand why, why is that it completely reminded me of arepa, you know, like of, of roasted corn, white corn. So there is probably like some aromatic thing that they share in common. So it may probably some kind of starch, you know, but I found that to be extremely interesting. So, but going back to, to the breakfast, it was like, well, you could make different combinations.
There was, there was a soup, there was some fried fish, different things, but then you had like this bowl of rice with poached egg, but poached like this soft cooked eggs where you have the liquid yolk and gelatin on top. And I mean, incredible. That sounds so amazing. That kind of makes me think of this thing. That I've not tried a lot, but I really want to look more into it. You know, these Korean steamed eggs?
No, you get them as like, I think a starter in like lots of like Korean steak houses and stuff. And they usually come in this like little sort of like pot and it's almost like an egg souffle. I'm pretty sure that it's also made with like broth and stuff. I have to look more into it, but they look so, they look like an egg souffle flan, super wobbly
steamed egg. You know, it kind of reminds me of this trend that people were doing where they were eating instant ramen and then they add egg to the liquid and then like cook it in a microwave and it becomes this egg souffle. Have you seen that? No, but with ramen broth? Yeah, so basically you take like a cup noodle sort of thing. You know, I wouldn't recommend cup noodle itself, but like a brand that's actually good. And you make the ramen as you would with the broth and you eat the egg.
As you would with the broth and you eat the noodles with the soup, but you leave some of the soup. And then into the soup, you add some whisked eggs, you mix that and then you put it in the microwave and cook it. And then it like the egg absorbs and becomes this like juicy egg souffle. And then you eat the souffle afterwards. I haven't tried it yet because I don't have a microwave anywhere near me, nowhere. But I really, really want to try it. Something that I also found super interesting.
I don't know if we have talked about this, this microwave sponge cakes from also from Albert Adria. Yeah, I mean, they're classic. Have you seen that? Yeah. Yeah. Super classic in the little cups that you snip and you spray. Yeah. And it's something like really difficult. Like, like so I don't think there's a lighter sponge cake than that. Absolutely. And it's like complicated for a service because you have to do it at a minute. There is no way around. Yeah. You can't keep them.
And if it stays. Yeah, exactly. So there is going to be a lot of waste if you have one of those because the guy stood up, you have to do another one, you know, like, okay. Yeah. Well, you talked about souffles. What's the deal with souffles? Is it also something that is outdated? Is it still relevant? A souffle is really, really amazing and it's kind of hard to pull off, especially in a restaurant. But I am a big fan of souffles. I've been testing a lot of souffles last year.
And I came across an amazing recipe from Adam Byatt, Adam Byatt, Michelin star chef in London. Who, by the way, if you're like interested in any sort of food, he's like doing a lot more social media now and he does amazing cooking videos. Just this really sort of like really good English cooking with French technique and super creative, super clean, really amazing. And he's got a recipe for souffle where, because normally you make like a, like a creme pâte base with flour and eggs and et cetera.
But he uses rice pudding as a base. So you take, you take like arroz-co-leche, you know, you bake it in the oven like you would. And then you take the rice with the liquid and you blitz it until it's a fine puree. So super smart because there you also, you have a lot of starch in there, right? Which is what you want for a souffle. Exactly. And then you let that cool down and then you take this like gelified base,
a rice starch base, which has a lot of like sweetness. I often cook it with like cinnamon, lemon zest, vanilla and star anise and stuff. And so the base already has a lot of flavor. And then you just use that normally. You add your whisked egg whites and your flavor base, whatever you want. And you fold that in, add it into the mold. There's lots of like fine tuning with souffles. The mold has to be the right one. It has to get coated, brushing up, right,
to the very corner, has to get coated evenly. When you add the filling, you have to tap it down. You have to level the top. You have to run your finger around the edge. So, and then, but then if you do it right, you get this perfect tower with a flat top. And I think a well-made souffle, this is the sort of thing that the world needs more of,
like the cooking world. It's kind of like proper, proper technique. Things that are like, they're not easy to do, you know, but if you make them right, then, you know, it's super, super amazing. And nowadays there's lots of like copy out shit, you know, it's like, I put a certain ingredient on or I put a certain technique on, you know, for a long time it was, I put lots of fermented things in my food or, you know, I use a lot of Sosa ingredients, etc.
That's all fine. Like fermentation is a tool. Sosa products are a tool. Great. But like, don't rest yourself on these techniques. So I love these sorts of things where you have a real, like, because it's a craft after all, you know, so the artistic aspect these days of cooking gets like really emphasized, like art here, art there, amazing. Massimo Bottura wanking his 12th sauce on a plate. Everybody's losing their fucking mind, but like actually making something with your hand,
you know, it's really underrated. What's the name of this super top one German chef from Schwarzwaldstube? What's the name of this guy? Oh, Harald Wohlfahrt. Yeah. Harald Wohlfahrt. Please cut that. That is him, no? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Harald Wohlfahrt. Yeah. He said once something that really stuck to me, like in a hundred years, you won't find, you probably won't find this liquid nitrogen ice cream that has some Blumenthal is making, but for sure you will find a classic vanilla ice.
And I completely agree on that one, you know, like also going back to ice, like I would say like a classic vanilla ice, the key ingredient there or one of the key ingredients is the egg. Yeah. Yeah. Made with vanilla ice, made with a good creme anglaise is just a fantastic thing. And so many people these days, you know, they're using all these stabilizers and blah. And it's like, that's all fine. That's all cool. And like, they're useful, but can you make an
ice cream just like without that shit? Can you make something without all that fucking fancy equipment and that, and that's why like eggs are synonymous with a chef's skill in a way, you know? It's like, if you have eggs, you have potatoes, you have onions, show me what you can do. Yeah. That's for example, like a super nice test, you know, like let's do a chef battle with that. Like we get like a bar, two chefs, cameras, and we give them potatoes, onions,
and eggs. And I like cuisine. For sure. Yeah. And you know, like what I hinted at before, like talking about all these Asian egg dishes, but there's actually a really nice European, like steamed egg dish, which is, have you ever made them, eaten them? Yeah. No, but it's also like a costal, right? So cocotte is this little pot, right? Like this. Well, you find these super beautiful pots that were, that are specially made for this dish,
and you don't see that anywhere anymore. My mom used to make it every now and again, they're super nice because they're usually these little ceramic pots with like little metal lids, and they're like, they're very gorgeous. And so basically, it's just, you crack your eggs into this buttered pot, and you add your aromats. Usually you add maybe a couple of small pieces of butter, some ham, some chives, and you close the lid, and you put it in a pot with just a little
bit of simmering water, and you steam it in these pots. And what you have is this like very creamy, flavored, aromatic, steamed egg inside of this little cup that you eat it out of. So the outside is like a little bit like dried, like sort of almost like crispy, and the inside the yorks are like really nice and waxy, and the chives flavor the egg and the ham flavors the egg. It's super beautiful. That's actually something that you don't ever see anymore.
That's it for this week's episode of Potluck Food Talks. If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok as Potluck Food Talks. The show airs every Monday.