hi everyone welcome to potluck food talks i'm vladimir putin and i'm here with my friend kim jong -un and we're going to conquer some lands across the globe we're finally conquering the best country so what's the plan we're going to oreo now yeah first the plan is not to drive over any uh little puppies yeah the place we're going this is bodegon hoshimari i know the Well, you saw the videos. I did. It's iconic. Very classic fish grilling. How do you say besugo
in English? I have no idea, actually. Besugo is like a super popular fish here. And like a really expensive fish also, no? Besugo is like, it's pricey, right? Yeah, I think if you go to this grill places, it's... It's a big piece of fish, the greatest you can get. It's super meaty and delicious. I have no idea what it's called, actually. But they were very pioneer in the besuga grilling in the region. And I don't know when they opened, but they're for sure over 50 years
old, that place. Yeah, it's like super, super iconic. You said they were pioneering in like the fish grilling technique, no? That's what I was explaining yesterday, that there are two schools, the Orio school and the Getaria school. We're going to drive by Getaria, where El Cano is. Have you been to Elcano Chiqui? I've never been to either Elcano or Elcano Chiqui. I think you would love both of them. They're completely different experiences. I can imagine that. Elcano
is like a fine dining setting. And Elcano Chiqui is more like a casual place, you know? But they have the same produce from Elcano. You have to book and you can only be there for two hours. And you're kicked out because they have the table for... So they do double seating. That's fair
enough. and i mean it's a very casual place you know like you go there you have your whole menu i remember the last time i was there we were a little bit late and they were like they didn't allow us to because we're already in a car and it was like that's too much and then you're not going to finish it no it will take too long yeah and we have to leave we want our afternoon break so you're late that's really funny yeah but i mean obviously elcano you know, is now also world
famous, you know, as like the reference. I remember when I first came to the Basque Country, it was like, kind of like everybody was talking about Echevary and people were sort of like, yeah, but have you heard of Elcano? And now it's like just as famous, you know. But I'm glad that the selection of places we're making, we're avoiding the golden route. that everybody does, which is Echevarri, Casa Julian, Elcano, like everybody
knows that. And I think there's so much more to it, like to get to other places and other villages around San Sebastian that are lesser known for the larger public. And I think that's
the whole point. Yeah. And yesterday we had an interesting experience at MUCA that sparked like a debate about desserts and restaurants and some people think in many fine dining restaurants or high -end restaurants it's like a turn -off when the desserts come it's like oh this was an amazing menu like an amazing experience and suddenly ah here it comes desserts and you have like like lame desserts uh they they just don't add or stand up to the level of the rest of the
experience in many cases what are your thoughts about that i don't necessarily agree with that yeah so um a lot of people say the the main thing that people are going to remember from a dinner is the dessert because it's the last thing that they have you want to end on a high note and there's a lot of importance put on desserts but you know the other half is kind of sort of like well how do you want people to leave like it should just be like a light refreshment there's
also like the discrepancy between kind of like well do you want something rich and something filling or do you actually want the opposite of that do you want something to be light and refreshing or do you on purpose give people like both options this is you know the people have different opinions about this yeah for example my opinion is so i personally when after i like a long tasting menu i rather have something light especially light and not so overwhelmingly you
know like with many components i already have that you know like what we had yesterday is like very like two three element desserts like or Even like just one main element, you know, like this is an ice cream. This is a panna cotta. This is a piece of fruit, you know, with an ice cream or something around. But a dessert that is already like a plated thing with many, many components, like a lot of information. I don't want that anymore at that point. I personally,
in most cases. Yeah, I totally get that, you know, I totally get that. And it's really difficult also from like a restaurateur's perspective. It's a difficult territory to navigate. Well, yet at the same time, I have to think about the dessert I had at Mass in Tokyo. Yes. That was, at the same time, one of the best chocolate desserts. No, for sure, the best chocolate dessert I've ever had. What was it? It was exactly the opposite from what I'm just preaching. It was a dessert
with a lot of information. You know, because it was like a deconstruction of not only chocolate, cocoa, and the fruit, but also of the... so to say related fruits from the same fruit family from the teobroma so you had copo azul which is not cocoa but like a different fruit a similar fruit from the same family and another one and cocoa and different you had it fermented as chocolate but also of the fresh fruit and juice form and it was like a like an insane lot of information
there that you had like 30 different components but it was like almost like a psychedelic trip to to the experience you know like yeah oh but that's cool because it's got a narrative and it's about a product that is tied to the identity of the restaurant you know it's kind of like with the apple yesterday that we had you know like apple very very significant for the basque region in desserts you play with these like often very very often with these very very classic
fundamental ingredients like for example we were talking about vanilla right and it's kind of like it's very interesting to me to have a dessert that like showcases vanilla as not just like because vanilla is a luxury product but often it's sort of like this bastardized kind of like let's just put vanilla in it whatever vanilla ice cream suddenly is like you know like it's kind of like vanilla ice cream suddenly is this like super need your contact fuck you shut up
vanilla ice cream suddenly this like super normal thing right what is like mega special and also vanilla beans have become really bastardized in my opinion you get vanilla beans and they're like really sad if you see a good vanilla bean Like a fucking juicy, full thing. It's very, very special. The flavor is very special. People kind of forget about this. Also, people get very greedy about it. Just like a micro pinch of vanilla to your ice cream, just to say that's vanilla.
What we had yesterday, you could really feel like vanilla. Yeah, for sure. Like the deep notes of it, because it's such a complex aroma. It has to be one of the most complex aromas there
is. hundred percent and and you can only experience it at its full if you add enough of it you know yeah absolutely i actually for a while my assistant head chef put a dessert on the menu which was basically just a vanilla ice cream with a caramel sauce but the ice cream is very well made with a shit ton of really high quality vanilla and the caramel was a very special caramel cooked Very dark with salted French butter, spices and pineapple juice amongst other things. So it was
very, very good. And people were really surprised. And obviously then it's also expensive. We sold that dessert. It was like a big scoop of ice cream for like, I think it was like 18 euros that we sold it as. And people were like, oh, vanilla ice cream for 18 euros. And then you get it and you eat it and you can't get it, you know, because it's, you know, it's generous with
something very high quality. i always have to think of thomas keller who says like it's like one of the most important things for a chef is to be generous and in examples like this like vanilla ice cream when you like if you know right you want a vanilla ice cream that's like full of vanilla and then you get like something that's like skimped out it's really disappointing it really takes like the the momentum out of your experience also something i have to see and for
me that's um that's very moogari like all of the desserts were like a single component that's also something that that you see like i work in many restaurants and the pastries you know and i always wanted to do desserts like in that direction and many times the chef would say no you have to do like a mille -feuille and like this very complex things with complicated platings and complicated assembly when you can do like this you know something that is just one element
that that is very easy to execute same with the petit fours you know like this over -technical execution of something that in many cases is not even eaten, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not put any attention to that much, you know? That wouldn't make me so angry because it was what took the most effort in production and people would leave untouched, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a real shame. But like, I really love
the creativity in desserts. And actually, I have been thinking about this recently because I hired
a new pastry chef. and she comes from a patisserie background so in germany where i'm currently working um you have this thing called uh conditor yeah conditoren which is like what pastries and primarily cakes layered complex cakes very cool professions very cool that we have an apprenticeship for that profession because it's very very unique she now started in my restaurant and When she's tasked with making desserts that fit into the menu, it's very difficult for her, because it's
a completely different approach, especially with the way that we're cooking, which is very similar to what we ate at Mucha yesterday. It's very minimalistic. It's interesting combinations of a few elements that have to make sense. And she doesn't get that at all. She's like, ah, let's make a... I can make... It always starts with a cake. I can make a biscuit, and then I can
do a mousse. and then i make a gelatin of this and then i can do this chocolate decoration i'm like no no no that's we don't want that it's not a cake shop right we want uh three four items that are interesting and nice to eat and aesthetic like you know simple yeah and also where there is like a bold flavor statement because that's that that's it's like a completely different experience the experience you have in a cake shop you know where you get a cake like a petit
gateau in paris for example that's completely different where you open a cake and you have like this whole universe of different textures and flavors inside the cake yes and and just a spoonful you have like seven different things seven different elaborations and yeah that's the thing on its own and it's also an experience on its own you go there for that and you're having that probably with a coffee or a tea yeah and that's it and you're having that in the middle
of the afternoon or or as a breakfast or whatever but it's not like in the context of dinner or you know like a dining experience it can be if that's what you want to go for but so many other times you know you you want something you want to keep that momentum going of sort of like when you've already had you know like four or five six dishes that have been kind of you know try to achieve something where you're sort of like a little bit a little element of surprise you
know a little bit of ah okay cool i see i haven't had this before um then a cake's not going to do that you know but that's in a tasting menu environment obviously like we were talking yesterday about well you know somebody maybe wants something like indulgent and the example of like a lava cake came up which i think is super valid because i like nowadays i work in an environment where i don't do tasting menus i do a la carte right and i want to make sure that everybody can get
like what they feel like if i had a dessert menu that only has like that has like a sorbet an ice cream and a panna cotta i'd be like well what about somebody who really wants something super comfy you know i think it's also important to cater to that so we can't forget that as a chef you're not just stroking your own ego with the cool combinations that you're making at the end of the day you want to sell something to people that they really want that they really
like while not selling yourself out in the process Can you think of good examples of restaurants where you say, this is what a good restaurant dessert is for me? I mean, yesterday was pretty great. Yesterday is a very good example. But some others, I can think of in Paris, I went to Eels. Yeah. And I remember having there like desserts where you could get like impressive technique, like, you know, like getting surprised by, wow, I'm here getting different textures
and different stuff, like in very little. components, but it worked pretty well. For example, Fernando himself, he used to be a pastry chef at Amelia and Fismuller, exactly. Well, he actually developed the Basque cheesecake at Fismuller that has become also like an icon. We were just talking about Basque cheesecake and the one he did, which is already part of one of the iconic desserts at Fismuller in Madrid. And that is a Basque cheesecake
that... Actually, you get the blue cheese. Last time I was at Amelia, and I remember having, I think the name is Vigilante, which is like an Argentinian dessert. Again, very simple, just goat cheese with sweet potato. Like an interpretation of an Argentinian dessert. That felt like a little bit like membrillo with goat cheese. Super nice as well. Nice. Sounds really good. Goat cheese with membrillo, that's such a good combination.
And sweet potato. for example in my opinion germany is not a good example like the places i've been there i also have to say i was there like a long time ago there are of course exceptional exceptions that are exceptionally good desserts and restaurants but like the typical thing is exactly all what we're talking about like add a cake to it add vanilla because you need to add vanilla but not too much because it's too expensive and could you get this over and over again yeah different
restaurants yeah yeah for sure um yeah i mean germany is a weird place anyway because they were very good at like this like high level michelin vibe because of like all the like seriousness and the bar but it's only now developing that they're kind of having a bit more of like an
open style of cooking. Obviously, you know, also due to, you know, all the sort of like immigrant exchange, you know, people coming to like places like Berlin and opening a little bit more sort of like casual places because that's where the trend is also. Nobody wants to, I mean, not nobody, but so like few people want to go to these like two or three Michelin star places. They want restaurants that they can go to every week or every two weeks or at least once a month if they
want to. So you have all these chefs. We've talked about this many times before. You have all these chefs that come from the high level background and they want to do something accessible where their friends can also come maybe, you know. But with the same level of technique and quality. And there I feel like you get the coolest desserts, you know. Kind of like what we did yesterday where it's like minimalistic, cool ideas. Things where, you know, earlier we were talking about
what's intuition in cooking, you know. Where you have intuitive combinations of things that are just very interesting and very delicious. That maybe you would have to have experienced to have the idea. And to then put that together into simple desserts that are kind of like three, four, five spoonfuls at the end of your... For me, also what determines a good dessert or even
a dish. Or what makes something memorable. For me, something memorable, if it's worth telling a story afterwards, you know, like, oh, I had this in this place that had this and that. For example, some of the things we had yesterday, ah, there was this sour honey sauce, you know, like, or we had this intense vanilla or this white chocolate with tonka beans, you know, like where you can actually tell what you had, you know, like sometimes you have, you know, it's
just. whatever it's just okay it was just a sweet bite after the meal yeah but at the same time i think that um too much emphasis is put on like smart combinations like that is definitely like a really cool thing when it's done right but i also think that we like we mustn't forget that cooking is a craft not just an art form you know and i think that very well executed things in flavor and in technique are very very memorable like even just like an ice cream a well -made
ice cream that's nice and fatty but light that isn't crystallized and that is perfectly seasoned that's going to be memorable a really nicely made souffle doesn't have to be like invented doesn't have to be creative it just has to be well executed and when you hit that sweet spot then that's going to be memorable you know and of course there can be a combination between the two worlds between the artistic and the craft and that is what makes cooking so special i think
is the combination of the two but a lot of times people put too much emphasis i think on like oh let's try to make a cool combination and then they forget about the other part and then it's and then it reads cool on the on the menu on paper but then you eat it and you're kind of like you know it sounded nice but yeah that happens actually quite a lot yeah yeah that's another thing that in many places to desserts like if there were no seasonality to it yeah totally
and you know like okay because you have creams and you have vanilla you have a chocolate and you have these things that are at temporary uh or not seasonal that's true uh but then which is not true you know i mean like chocolate yeah but like vanilla and stuff it does have like a like a season you know if you really really get down to the nitty -gritty of it there is a season for vanilla yeah it's like when it's better and when it's less good for sure it doesn't
make a huge difference but Okay, I didn't know about that. Because for me it's a spice and in that regard you can buy it in a month and use it 10 months later. It's not going to be the same though. Most people will probably not notice it. Even that I think you should approach with... How do you treat vanilla? Do you freeze it? I keep it cold and I try to buy it relatively... I mean not fresh obviously because it's not fresh, it's fermented. I try to use it up as quickly
as possible. I don't buy like a stock of vanilla and just have it hanging out, you know. Okay. Because my vanilla dealer is a guy from Iran and he selects really high quality, super expensive, you know. It's like 500 euros a kilo. Yeah. But it'll be juicy, aromatic vanilla pots, you know. And like how many times do you go to a supermarket and buy a vanilla pot? It's this little shriveled up thing that you can barely get any seeds out.
Wow. It's a supermarket vanilla. Exactly. But you don't know how long it's been there also. It could have been three years. Of course. That's what I'm saying. No, of course. Yeah, there are vanillas and vanillas. And yeah, I agree with everything you said. But yeah, not only fruits, but also vegetables, you know. You can use vegetables in insanely interesting ways for desserts. I just mentioned this sweet potato with goat cheese
and quince. you know like for a dessert like it's like an interpretation of an argentinian dessert but elevated to a fine dining context that's just an example i've also seen desserts with aubergines with eggplants you know like there are like a lot of of things that you can turn sweet that are counterintuitive and just take advantage of the of the seasonality herbs also absolutely like a basil mousse with something as classic Strawberries is incredible. Also for
herbs. I mean, also for ice creams with different herbs. There's a whole universe that you can unlock just by paying attention to this kind of thing. Absolutely. I think also when we talk about seasonality, it's also like the sentiment of it. Because, for example, you can make... I think it only makes sense to take advantage
of the season, right? So, like, if strawberries are in season, like, I want to... absolutely showcase the strawberry or like rhubarb you know as soon as the first rhubarb comes i want to showcase that when it's over then i want to move on to the next thing but it's also like you can of course make you can make a dessert with like a milk -based dessert with like stuff in summer but you can also like leave it for winter when there's like a scarcity of produce like making
a dessert based off for example just like milk and honey and like cereals like grains and stuff like that It's got a certain vibe and it's got a certain comfort. And there's a feeling that it gives you that's very nostalgic in a way, which can fit really, really well in winter, you know, when it's cold outside and you want something that's warm and comforting, where you don't necessarily want to rely on fresh produce.
And also moving with these sorts of emotional approaches, what kind of sensation does it give
you after you've eaten it? i think that's something that people kind of neglect like for example this like dessert yesterday of the like stewed apple with the milk ice cream that's like even though i don't have particular childhood memories of eating apple with like milk it's exactly that you eat it and it's kind of like something that you would maybe eat if you're sick as a child you know stewed sweet and sour apple milky fatty ice cream um and for me personally that like
ties into the seasonality just as much as anything else just like if it's like if you're drinking a cold soup in the midst of summer when it's boiling hot or you're drinking a warm broth when it's raining outside in autumn you know it's super super impactful that's it for this week's episode of putt lock food talks if you like what we're doing make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode You can also find us on Instagram and TikTok as potluckfoodtalks.
The show airs every Monday.