Hi everyone, welcome to Potluck Food Talks. Today we're going to talk about Bolivian traditional ancestral potluck with Bolivian chef Mauricio Lopez. He's a chef from Ancestral, which is a restaurant exploring the boundaries of grill and barbecue cooking, but also of traditional and ancestral recipes from Bolivia. Hi Mauricio, how are you? Hello Eric, thank you for the invitation. I wanted to ask you, I don't even know how
it's correctly pronounced, Aptapi. This is like a Bolivian tradition, right? Yes, yes, exactly. I'm not sure exactly what it's pronounced to, but I think it's Aptapi. Okay. Yeah, it's a Bolivian tradition. It's more than, it's not a plate actually, it's a way of eating. It's a meal prepared for special occasions and the idea is to share, you know, everyone brings something. Normally something from the harvest and you choose the best things you have and you bring it to the parish.
This is from the Aymara people, right? Yes, Aymara, especially from all the Altiplano in Bolivia, from the higher part. So the Aymara, just explain, is an indigenous people that live in the Andes in South America, primarily in Bolivia, but also Peru and Chile, and they have a super rich cultural tradition and long history of agriculture, farming. So in this Aptapi is kind of like a picnic, right?
Yeah. Or everybody brings something to eat. Can you share some of the things that you could find in an Aptapi? The basics is different kinds of potatoes, also some cheese, fava beans, green beans, sweet beans, and llama meat. So stuff you can find around and everyone brings something different. Also fish from the Lake Titicaca and other high altitude lakes like Eastby,
Trout, and Maury and other types of fish. That's basically it. And the idea is everyone brings something different and they share what they have. One particular thing that you find in all the Andean cuisine is chuno. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about this particular, like also like an ancient technique? There's two different ones. One is called, one of the most important ones, one is called chuno and the other one is called tunta. So
it's a way to conserve the potato. This can be conserved basically forever. I mean, I think they found 2000 year old chunos that you just eat rotate again and they're working. Nothing happened to it. So it's the best way to keep it good for a very long time. Normally they do it with the last potatoes they have on the small ones, the ones that don't look that pretty. And the process is very interesting because it's the first documentary ever dry
freeze of an ingredient. Yeah. I saw that if you look for dry freezing for lyophilization and on food and cooking of Harold McGee, he will talk about chuno and the Andean technique that was, because as you say, this has been made for thousands of years. There were dry freezing potatoes and later you can rehydrate them and eat them like fresh potatoes. So that's basically it, right? Yeah, exactly. You just hydrate them again and then cook them a bit longer than normal
potato, but it's good again. But it has a special taste of course, no? Yeah. It's a very strong taste. And the potatoes are like gray or dark gray black, right? Yeah. There are two types. One is the chuno is almost black. That one, the difference is that it's only, they don't color it when it's dried on the sun. So the basic process is you put the potato to dry during the day in the sun and at night it freezes. So that
when it's repeated, it de-hydrates the product and also freezes it. So we have to be in the altiplano that has that special climate that is really hot during the day and it's really cold during the night. Yeah. And also probably the altitude influences on this as well. Of course. Yeah. And the difference is that the chuno, the black one receives sunlight. It's not covered, so it becomes more obscure. And
the tunta first is cleaned on a river, cleaned up for a long time. So most of the water goes away and the starch and then is de-rotated and freezed the same way with the difference that it's not directly under the sun. They use fresh herbs or stuff in the top so it doesn't get the sunlight directly and end up white as a chalk. I also wanted to ask you, this tradition, especially at Actapia, how has this evolved over time? Is this still being done today and is it different from, let's say, 50 or
100 years ago? I think it doesn't have changed much because it's not only a meal for a party, but it's also a way for people to talk with each other in the small towns and it's also very political. Okay. So is where they discuss the loss or what happened during the day or how they're going to harvest the next one or what's the plan for the future, if there's any problems in the community, that's where you talk about it. So the food is important, but it's mostly
about what people are saying about communication. Same as now. When you go out and eat, of course you go for the food, but normally you go to talk with someone else in a meeting. As Ferran Adria said, food is the biggest social network we have. Have you incorporated in your menu and ancestral some kind of dishes that you could find in an Actapia or like in traditional Ayubara cuisine? We use the ingredients. Almost the same ingredients that we have on an Actapia, they're all over
the menu in the restaurant. Yes, because we're in the same place, we have the same ingredients and the idea of the restaurant of people having fun, chatting and just having a good time, eating well is what we want on ancestral. The first thing we wanted is like we want a restaurant where people will go and enjoy and have fun. And I think that's the same idea, you know, and gather with their loved ones or have meetings. That's the idea of
the restaurant. And I think it's also based on the base of the Actapia. Since you're already talking, can you say a little bit more about the restaurant? So what I know is that it's specialized in grilled meat. It's kind of inspired to some point in Basque grilling. It also works mostly with, I don't know, mostly or only with Bolivian products. Can you tell us a little bit? We always have a hard time explaining what we do. But it is, yeah, first of all Bolivian
products. We only use Bolivian products, which is fun. We don't have sea, we don't have sea food. So we use just things from the earth and from the lakes, of course. And everything is cooked some way on the grill, on the barbecue, on a stone oven and directly to the fire. So the idea is basically that is local products and the use of fire. We're inspired very much by the grills on San Sebastian, of course, is one of the biggest inspirations. Also the
grills from different parts of the world. I've been in Sweden and I cook in a restaurant called Exstedt. Ah, yeah. I know the head chef of Exstedt. What's her name? Florencia? Florencia, yes. Of course. I worked with her many years ago in Catalonia. Yeah, she told me. In Spain in... Racó de Canfabas. Yes. Yeah, she told me. Ah, that's funny. And I actually found her once in a museum in Berlin, randomly. But she's a super good chef, right?
Yeah, she's super good. When I was there, I think she was sous chef still and there was a Chilean chef and now she's the head chef. Nice. And the owner is this guy called Nikola Exstedt, which is super famous in Sweden. And the food is amazing. It's one star and everything is cooked on the grill. They even do the stocks over the fire. Just to be loyal with the philosophy. I was impressed by that. And that's where
I started thinking about the type of restaurant I wanted. And I saw that and I thought it was super cool because it was a grill, but it was modern, it was different. It was not the cuisine, of course. And they do everything, everything. Even the sides, they're made on this old iron cast cuisine that works with wood. Yeah, with wood fire. Wow. They go to the extreme. Nothing is cooked on anything electrical or gas. They don't
have a gas line. I think there's one induction if you need it somewhere there, if you're doing pastry or something. But as I told you, even the stainless steel pots were on the fire for the stocks. I also wanted to ask you, do you serve anticochos as an ancestral? We do serve anticochos. And I wanted to ask you about the difference of anticochos from Bolivia than from the ones from Peru. Because when I was living there, that's something that really impressed
the people. I think the Bolivian ones are much better, sorry if someone from Peru is listening. And even people from Peru were really impressed, like, what? But this is completely different. And also, it has this peanut sauce on top. So just to explain, to introduce, anticochos are like skewers, sold in the street. It's like a street food. And it's a long skewer and it's made out of heart. Ox heart. Ox heart.
There's a lot of similarities between Peru and Bolivia because we have the same culture. We even were the same country for a while. Bolivia was Alta Peru. So we have a lot in common and most of our history is shared. Specifically, the beginning is after the colony. So we have a lot of things in common, like for example, the herbs you use, this type of cooking. So when a Peruvian sees an anticocho in Bolivia, thinks that we bring it from there.
Nobody actually was here before we became, we were Bolivia. So it's very interesting. We share a lot and that's super nice actually because they have their way of doing it. Super famous in Peru. And they are so good at marketing their food that everyone in the world knows that anticocho is Peruvian. But there is, interestingly, there is the Bolivian version also. I think the difference is when it's cooked over a planchette, the Peruvian one, normally,
I might be wrong. Please don't hang me any Peruvians there. The ones I tried are on a planchette, but also with charcoal in the bottom, but it's a planchette. It's not grilled. So it doesn't have the direct contact. And the pieces are thicker. Yeah. The Bolivian ones are really thin. Really thin. Yeah. The pieces are thicker and I think they're more seasoned than the Bolivian ones. And the peanut sauce, the peanut sauce is a Bolivian thing or both have?
Yeah, the peanut sauce is a Bolivian thing. Yes. And this is like dehydrated yellow chili, peanut. How is that sauce made? Yeah, basically the yellow chili and peanuts. And then someone add some stuff, garlic, cumin, it depends, but that's the basic. Yeah. They also have like this secret sauces. And I remember if you see like an anticocho vendor in Bolivia, they have like this brushes with a super secret marinade that no one knows
what it is. And they brush the anticochos and the whole thing generates fire in front of you. So it's quite a thing. Yeah, exactly. And it's something you eat normally at 2 AM in the morning after buying. So it's a very important food for us. And it's very delicious. Everyone likes it. I haven't heard anyone saying they didn't like it or didn't even love it.
Since we're talking about Bolivian street food, there is also this story. I remember when living there, that there was this legendary vendor with the best sandwich, the chola, which is like a sandwich made of pork leg, right? Like a roasted pork leg and then with some pickles and what else? Yellow chili, a sauce made of yellow chili.
And it's amazing. And there were like these two vendors, one like 10 meters from the other and you would have to queue to have like a sandwich on one and the other one was empty. Really empty. And you would have to queue. One was people waiting and nobody would go to the other one. And I was like, what's going on here? And there was this story that the two are sisters and they had like a fight that never talked to each other ever again.
And people would go just to the one on the left and not to the one on the right until the one on the left was sold out, it's over, nothing else. Everybody would migrate to the other one. I remember we had to have both because we were the last ones. And I can tell you, yeah, it was much better. The first one. Yeah. Super much better. Yeah. I don't know what she does, but I think she steams the pork. She has the leg on a steamer the whole
time. Okay. So it's always hot and like nice. It doesn't dry up. And I think that's the key between many others. But I saw that. It's the only one I saw doing that because the rest just cook the pork and then they have it somewhere and it's cold, but this tastes like very fresh cooked pork. So just to close down a little bit this chat, what challenges do you have like when it comes to promote Bolivian gastronomy? You recently were named the one to watch by the world,
the Latin American 50 best restaurants. What impact has that had on your restaurant and your career? Yeah. The one to watch was really helpful. We didn't expect it to be honest. We just want a restaurant where people can enjoy themselves. We can do Bolivian products. And also we on the staff enjoys cooking. That's the basic. And thankfully we're getting some attention from other media and it's super good. I mean, we're really, really happy. And it's like
today at night, we were fully booked every day. That's not normal in Bolivia. And yeah, it's helping us a lot and it's helping us exactly what you're saying. More people are looking at Bolivia right now and that's what we want. It's pretty cool. There are like how many new restaurants in the list? Like we have Popular, Alipacha, Ancestral, Gusto. Bayawi. Bayawi. I don't know that one. Is that a new one? Yeah. In a beautiful place, beautiful house. Yeah. That one. And there's another one in
Santa Cruz called Sacha. Those are the six restaurants. Oh, nice. Six. It's a lot. Yeah. We start from one, then zero, and then one again, and then two, and now six. Nice. That's amazing. That's exactly what we want to do. I think that's the challenge, how to bring ice because I think cooks are doing the right job. I think there is a different
type of restaurants, especially in La Paz, which is where I live and I know better. In La Paz, there is many different types of good quality restaurants that do local food or local ingredients and they are very unique around Latin America. So I think La Paz has a very, very, very interesting scene and it's moving and it's growing and it's for all the prices, like from super fine dining menus to lunch menus that are very, very cheap and
they are super good quality. So it's for everyone. The challenge is how to make the rest of the world know about it. Because Bolivia is a country that's in the middle of the continent. We don't have connections directly with the sea or anything else that help us to bring more customers. We don't have the airport that Lima has that everyone passes through there. So I think that's the challenge. We have Salar de Uyuni, it brings a lot of people from outside.
Yeah. Just to point out, Salar de Uyuni used to be like a lake, like in ancient prehistoric times and it dried out. So it's like a super infinite wide landscape. It's a crazy thing. Yeah, exactly. And it's beautiful. I think it's one of the most beautiful places on earth. If you see the photos, just Google Uyuni. Yeah, it's amazing.
It looks magical. It's the largest salt flats in the world. And that brings a lot of tourists and those tourists go to La Paz or to the other departments and they can see more about Bolivia. But yeah, Bolivia is super huge in diversity. So you can have the Altiplano and biking, I mean, from taking a bike three hours, you can find from potatoes, altitude potatoes or stuff from the altitude. You can find papayas, pineapples, stuff like that. Yeah. Super, super diverse.
Super diverse and super short time. So I think that's the challenge. We need to bring more people from outside to see what we're doing. Even the local market is moving more. The young people are eating out more. They're trying this type of restaurants. And yeah, that's the idea. That's what we want to do. We want to bring to the scene Bolivian products. We want to bring something new and fresh, especially when we think about our plates,
we think more about what can we take out from the plate instead of adding it. So we try to make a very simple food. And I think that's going to bring some freshness and something different to the Bolivian scene. That's it for this week's episode of potluck food talks. If you like what we're doing, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. You can also find us on Instagram and Tik Tok as potluck food talks. The show airs every Monday.