Hi everyone, welcome to Potslough Food Talks. We're recording live from Hanoi here with my friend Phil. I wish we were in Hanoi. I wish man. We're in our apartment. I wish I was in Hanoi eating some noodle soup. So we wanted to make an episode about Uncle Tony. What about Anthony Bourdain? Our best man. Best whoever did it. He kind of is the best whoever did it now. I mean Tony was just kind of unique.
He hit a tone that just spoke to people and you know regarding the subject of food, but also everything that's connected to that, you know, because food is such a social and political thing. I think it's one of his major achievements is to become like a cult author inside the gastronomy and cook world, but also beyond it. Like, you know, like my mother could read a book from Anthony Bourdain or watch an episode or this kind of thing.
But what I think is what really made him like a cult author is that I know you, I know me, and I know at least 10 other peoples that on their apprentice years, this was one of their first books about chefs they read. And that's pretty amazing. And I myself is a book that I have like recommended or borrowed or given as a present many times, you know, and people have actually read the book. I'm talking about Kitchen Confidentials, who is I think the book that made him famous.
And it's a book that I've read at least three times, you know, it's like a super fun thing to read. And I think that the whole thing about it, like it has this tone that I don't know how to describe it. It's kind of like a Scorsese style tone, but talking about chefs and giving it like a gangster narrative or like a good fella thing. But also very knowledgeable about cooking processes and the life of a chef and these kind of things.
Yeah, you know, yeah, I think you described it pretty well, this kind of like dark and gritty sort of like realism, but paired with like a little bit of humor, you know, of kind of like, well, he talks about chefs, you know, being this like downcast sort of like band of misfits, which he at that point is part of, you know, but he describes it with a good dose of humor.
Yeah. And I think before him, there weren't any chefs writing this way about the craft or the profession, you know, like it would be all be like, vaguely romanticized, like portraying chefs as super elegant, well read people, which they are like in front of the public, but on the backstage, it's a complete different story. And nobody was telling that story. And I think that's super interesting. Yeah, totally. It's, you know, we always had the like white talk wearing starch jackets.
Yeah, like you say, romanticized version of a chef. And he just kind of talked about the reality of things, you know, that's like that is the reality that's especially in kitchens that aren't like Michelin star super fine dining kitchens, because that is just such a small part of kitchens. There's so, so many kitchens that cook good food, but just churn out massive amounts of food every day, right? Or like fast food workers, you know, those sorts of things.
And it was kind of like, I mean, it still is to a large amount. People just kind of ignore that, you know, they kind of like mine workers, people know that there's somebody behind the scenes doing all this work, but nobody really wants to think about that. And it was kind of cool that he spoke of this world, which by being so ignored and so in the background was like its own little universe. Do you have any favorite book of Anthony Bourdain? Oh, well, it has to be kitchen confidential for sure.
No, for sure. Well, talking about kitchen confidential, I just recently got a subscription to New Yorker magazine, just to get like some interesting reads of authors. You know, you can find there like an article that Hemingway wrote in the thirties, something like that, right? Oh, cool. And so I checked out Anthony Bourdain and you know, the first episode, the first chapter of kitchen confidentials was actually an article he wrote for the New Yorker.
And I read it again and you know, that was actually, you know, being published there, being a chef working in front of a fryer, being like, I don't know, 40 years old or something like that. And that's what made him like write kitchen confidential, getting a publisher to hire him for that, which later also gave him his cook show, which I think also changed the way TV shows around food were working.
You know, he would curse and smoke on camera and just connect with the really like with restaurants from the inside, you know, not like as a typical traveler show where we're going to visit this hotel and oh, look, this is not in that tone at all, completely the opposite. And that's what made him world famous. I was really impressed when he died, how many people were loved this guy, you know, he was like, you're really huge. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, just now thinking about his show, it also makes me realize kind of like looking back on it, how unique it was, you know, it was really unique because it was just so real, you know, it's he wasn't pretending to be anything. He was just himself, of course, he was playing his own character a little bit. But Tony was kind of like your cool friend who just didn't who you liked because he didn't talk bullshit. He didn't try to make you like him or anybody else, you know.
And I'm sure many times he said things that bothered me, you know, like that were like, you know, like especially he said for vegans and vegetarians. No, I'm totally on board with him there. He was like an absolute anti vegan Nazi. I could understand his point, but sometimes it's like, I don't know, man, like, yeah, no, absolutely. Indians like religious people are vegans and you know, yeah, I guess so.
Also the structures of the episodes he would make, like, I would say, like kind of like a comedy show structure, you know, there was always like a departure point that would later evolve during the episode and then close, you know, and make references of movies and like kind of holding the same joke through the whole episode. And I also think that was pretty cool. Yeah, for sure. He had just this very dry kind of sense of humor, but at the same time, he really knew what he was talking about.
And he, you know, I think what was the coolest thing for me about the show is it was one of the first shows where he really went to like the real places. Like it wasn't like you say, like, oh, we're going to go to this and this event, this and this hotel, this and this restaurant. Like he really went to the night markets. He really wanted to meet people, you know, like actual people from there. It's kind of like when I was traveling or when I am traveling, that's kind of like what I try to do.
I try to go where the local people eat and just kind of like even for this short amount of time, kind of feel like I live there, you know, like I'm one of the locals. And he did that at all the episodes and it was super informative and it formed like, you know, just naturally, I think really cool dynamics evolve because he was meeting the people. He was talking to them.
He got kind of accepted because he would go and because people would see that, you know, that he would just like, he was generally interested in what was going on there. He wasn't interested in the, the touristy places and just like showing the surface. He wasn't afraid to show exactly how it is, you know.
And people loved him, I remember episodes where he was somewhere in Latin America and a woman who was selling juices in the street would come and tell him, I've seen all your episodes traveling around the world. And you know, he was like really welcomed everywhere. I also had a friend from that when he visited Argentina, apparently the first time he went, it was like probably at the very beginning of the first show, he was still taking some drugs.
But the second time he was completely clean, like hundreds of fans would arrive to the venue and give him joints and drugs and all kinds of stuff. Poor guy. And also like he was always super respectful. I feel like you had this like sense of morals that, you know, people wouldn't like, what you would say is kind of like, you know, go there, be humble, eat the food, you know, talk to people.
And he had this very down to earth social quality that he then linked to food and what food and eating and cooking means in a social environment. And I think that really made it stand out. You know, it's not just like, oh, he's eating the cool fucking, you know, he's not he's not just in the Amazon eating, you know, worms.
Because like, like a sort of like bizarre food adventure, because of course, there were aspects of that where he did that, you know, go to Thailand, you're going to eat some bugs, you know, big what. But the real thing that like I think touched most people was exactly that is like the real sort of social interaction and giving food and cooking and what it means a lot more meaning than just, oh, look at this interesting recipe. Yeah, absolutely.
And he would also he hadn't any problem criticizing like famous chefs like Ettingham Kitchen Confidentials. He dishes Ferran Adria. But then he becomes like a big fan. That's actually one of my favorite episodes where he visits El Bougie, like in the early 2000s. That's so good. Yeah. And, you know, he gets like his opinion gets transformed because he actually understands what Ferran is doing. And and he gets that it's not like a bullshit show just that looks nice.
There's actually like a pretty intense intellectual and creative process behind those dishes. And he understands them and appreciates them. I remember there was a second episode where he goes to El Bougie. I think it was before El Bougie was closing or something. And they deserve him this tiramisu with a foam and a dust on top. It looked like a tiramisu. Then he tried it. And these were all super classic, traditional Japanese flavors.
And and he said like if someone from Japan would eat this, he would completely understand. And he understood because he had been in Japan and eaten in all the places, you know, and like that appreciation is also something that made his credibility for sure. Yeah. I also think that's like just now thinking back to those episodes because I really love those episodes too. I think because of Tony's understanding of like actual, you know, because he really he did have a mind of a chef.
He the choices that he made of like which places to go and what to showcase. It was just like spot on. I learned so fucking much from watching his show.
You know, those episodes that you just talked about where he goes to El Bougie for the first time, he has this like, you know, realization stuff that he talks about, how he talks about it, how he connects, you know, what Ferran does, because lots of people like to hate on Ferran that have never, ever eaten anything close to what they were making, you know, aren't really in touch with what El Bougie did. But everybody's like, oh, spheres. Yeah. Chemicals. Yeah. Sucks, you know.
Now that there is a lot of hate towards Ferran for many reasons, also because of the way he talks and the things he says, there's a lot of people that try to minimize him. Like, oh, you know, like French were already using the chiffon before him or whatever. Like they kind of like understand some of the biographical facts and think that and see him talking and okay, two plus two is four. This guy is nothing. And it's like, you have no idea. You understand nothing, you know? Yeah, no, absolutely.
You know, thinking about those episodes, it makes me think of other episodes that he did where I remember watching them and just having my mind blown. Like literally, I can't actually remember when the last time was that that really happened to me. You know, like I remember it was like quite late. It was when I was in Muguriz. So 2013, he was already. What was it? Layover? It was one of his new shows.
And he went to Copenhagen and basically the layover episode of Copenhagen turned into a Noma episode where he was just hanging out with Renee and and Jan, they were they were in Noma at like Saturday night project. And it was so I don't know if you've seen that. No. It was so fucking interesting that I was like and the way it was shot, you know, it was like really delving into the magic of being a chef. And it was it was so captivating.
It made me apply to Noma straight away, you know, like because I was like, man, I also remember having like this situation where have you ever read Sorcerer's Apprentice? No. It's like a like a reportage on the last year of El Bullo. It's actually a fun to read book, you know, like I remember that there is a story of a look with a Korean chef. Yeah, I know. It is like, you know, you work with him. We're with them and I work with them in Mubarak.
OK, because of this book, they tell his story and this it is like a Jean Claude Van Damme movie. You know, the guy was like a group like as a military officer and then he wanted to go to El Bullo or something. They told him you have to wait one year. So he went to a slaughterhouse in Australia and killed cows for a year before returning to El Bullo. And also like he had like this tour around Europe where he ate in all the three star chefs and restaurants.
There are like a super crazy story and there are these stories of many different chefs from that generation. And it's a cool book. And then at some point, the author was by the way, like Lisa Bent, she's a well known food journalist that lives in Copenhagen. And she's the one who wrote the piece that was a Time magazine cover of Rene Rezepi. And there is a line where she says, yeah, I know this chef.
They have this called for Anthony Bourdain, who would like be rough with customers and spit on their dishes. And everybody likes that. And I was like, what? Like, yeah, exactly, like I actually wrote there a letter, you know, like actually quoting an article of Anthony Bourdain where he said he has never seen someone spit on a dish ever. You know, like, why would you make up something like that? I don't get it. That's that's crazy.
I feel like that's yeah, that's the opposite of what he was about. No, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Because that's also really interesting about Anthony Bourdain is like the work ethic. He transmits for cooks like how to behave in a kitchen, what to do and not to do, how to approach adverse situations. Like if you know, he would describe chefs as this stoic workers could take everything and work extra hours without complaining and not crying about it and this kind of thing.
He would portray it like that, you know, and it's completely the opposite than that. No, that is true. And you know, I mean, we all understand the glorification of that, you know, with like you and me, we've both been part of that. When I talk about my, you know, past jobs, I also glorify that and I say, well, you know, I was working six days a week, you know, from like 10am till 2am. And it's kind of cool that you were able to do that.
It's not cool that people have to do that, you know, and I do agree with that. It's kind of cool to, you know, to feel like you're special and like you're working really hard. Yeah, I get that. But you know, I mean, it shouldn't get glorified. You know, like what should get glorified is having a healthy work environment where you take care of people. Yeah, I think also his narrative changed. Burdain's like at the beginning, he would also glorified and at the end, not anymore at all.
But I mean, Kitchen Confidentials glorifies this kind of toxic environments, chefs screaming, throwing things, people taking it and being tough and this kind of thing, you know, and it's funny because he tells it in a really funny way, you know. It is very funny. And honestly, it made me, you know, I read Kitchen Confidentials before I became a chef. It was the year before I decided to quit school and start cooking. Well, I was already thinking about it.
And then like a couple of different things led to me making the decision. And the book was one of them, you know, and I was like, man, you know, I was a rebellious teenager, you know, and I just wanted to fucking live my own life. You know, I wanted to to cook and create things and just to live my life, you know, and not be stuck in something that I don't want to do. And it's I was like, yeah, that's it, man. Like I want to cook and I just want to be free.
Yeah, like I heard a lot of people and I remember when I read it, I was an apprentice in the first restaurant I ever worked in my life and I would come to work and tell the chefs like the last episode I read, you know, like I was 18 years old, like super enthusiastic. And I remember very vividly many of the scenes of the book, you know, like most notably the one with the wedding at the beginning of the book. Would a guy like fucking the was it was it a bride? The bride.
Yeah. And he says when I saw the chef fucking the bride on her wedding day, I knew I wanted to become a chef. I so miss that. But one of my funniest moment is, man, when he said like his life was such a mess that he had to throw the Christmas tree on May or something, they had to chop it into little pieces like a corpse and put it in a bag so the neighbors wouldn't see. That's very relatable, though.
Yeah, and also I remember once also another episode where he says like there wasn't this huge puff pastry, something with a soup inside, something that was impossible to do. He says like if the dish wouldn't work, we would have to commit suicide like Japanese soldiers. And I know that feeling, you know, like when like if you're cooking like a big event and something is like going down, you really don't want to be there, you know?
Yeah, it's just the sense of pride also, you know, that it's kind of like but also like I remember him writing sort of like, well, like if it would have been like if it wouldn't have worked, sort of like liters of hot truffle soup would like pour over the legs of the diners and we would have to commit suicide. And I was like, yeah, like I get that, you know, it's like when you do like a big chocolate sculpture or something and you put it out and then it just kind of collapses or whatever.
It's just a horrible feeling. It's kind of like being on stage, you know, in a way. Yeah, I mean, you know, this story of this famous French chef in the 1800s or something, Vattel, the chef didn't arrive for dinner and he committed suicide, you know, at that time. He was probably cooking like for French elite, you know, for for monarchs and whatever. And he just couldn't take it, man. Wow, that's crazy. I didn't know that. I know the story and I know there is a movie.
The guys know his name is Vattel because there was like a oil brand called Vattel in Venezuela. So I remember the name. What else? What are your favorite episodes of No Reservations? No Reservations. To be honest, to be honest, I can't distinguish No Reservations and Cook's Tour. I see it like I don't remember well the difference, but the one where they visit the French Laundry for me, that was an amazing episode.
So good. Yeah, where Thomas Keller, he wanted to go out and smoke and Thomas Keller makes a dessert with Marlboro tobacco and he goes, we've never done this before. They send it and then. We'll never do it again. Yeah, that one is really good. He goes with Eric Repair and like a bunch of other people now, I think.
Yeah, there's also this chef that he really glorifies on Kitchen Confidentials is also on that table and they were like, you know, they were like four people and everyone would get a different dish. So they would exchange the dish during the menu. I did that once at a super nice restaurant in Berlin. They did that for us and it's super cool to have that. I was with my family and we would get for each course have four different dishes.
So like at the end, you're having like 48 dishes in a menu, but just like, you know, like little pieces and sharing. It's insane. Super fun to do. It's absolutely insane. I mean, from a kitchen perspective, I think that the episodes in Japan, I thought were, you know, just amazing for me. The Cookie Draw episode. Yes. I bought the book of Cookie Draw after seeing that episode, man. That was super nice.
A lot of people, I think I saw that and I was like, again, there was an episode where I was like, man, mind blown, you know, and he did this. He did this in Magnus Nilsson's dish, if I'm not wrong. He's like, what is this shit? Yeah, I think he kind of goes like, because he's sitting at the table eating and he's like, we're eating for his floor. Because it was like potatoes cooked with like leaves from the forest and stuff like that. And man, you know, I give food tours here in San Sebastian.
I get a lot of tours that, you know, they want to go to the places where Anthony Buren went in San Sebastian and he went to Gambara. He went to Casa Rola. He went to some pretty well known places. Yeah. He was a huge, huge fan of Arsak by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I don't know. I'm not going to sit. Yeah. No, me neither. But he like, I mean, historically for sure, like culinarily, especially today, not special, not at all. Yeah, but historically very, very valid.
One of my absolutely favorite episodes that I watched, I think probably like a dozen times and that I can't find anymore because it used to be up on YouTube, but it's not. There was, there were two Paris episodes as far as I know. There was like the first Paris episode and he's kind of hating them. There's one where he goes to Frenchies or that's the second one.
That is the one that I'm talking about because there's one where he goes the first time and he's kind of like hating on Paris and on France in general. And then there's like the hundredth episode and it was like a thing and he goes there. He goes to Frenchies. He goes, he meets up with Joel Robuchon. He goes to L'Atelier and then hangs out with Robuchon afterwards.
And he goes, but also he goes to like small eateries where this guy is like making like, what is it, like kidneys or something and like a creamy sauce. And it's just a super nice episode with really nice food. And the Frenchie, like the part where, you know, Gregory Marchand is cooking in Frenchies where he's still in his first place, a young guy, super thin, smoking, just cooking by himself. Like, I was like, man, this is so fucking cool. Like this is such an inspiration. Yeah, man.
Like so nice. There's a really cool episode also where he meets up with the Joe beef guys. I think that's like, yeah, that's no reservations, I think already or something. He's in Canada and they go out. Oh, and there's another one where he goes to Au Pire de Cochon in Quebec where he has the like four graphies. Because I want to appear the Cochon in Paris. Is it related? I don't think so. Actually, it's what's his name? I think it's called Au Pire de Cochon.
I think that was a very bourgain style restaurant. Old school French, you know, where you get like a whole fried pig's leg. Super nice. Yeah. Maybe I'm maybe I'm no, no, it is Au Pire de Cochon. I think his name is Picar, Matta Picar. He's got Cabano Sucre also. Yeah, it's just like very French, Canadian cooking, you know, four gram maple syrup just nonstop. And I think they're like, Tony's like tapping out during the dinner. He's like, please no more. The guys like to send him more.
Send him more. We also talked once. And I remember that was one of the first conversations we had about Bourdain, like when we were just meeting. I remember you telling me like, but he's not really a cook, isn't he? And I feel like we both agree on that. He is. And then he was he was talking about other in Bourdain as a chef. Gets it wrong because that's not there's nothing special about his cooking.
I mean, his cookbooks are nice and they have nice recipes because but not because he's a good chef, but because he's like a very well knowledgeable astronomist. That's what he is. And he finds very good recipes and knows how to put them in a book. But yeah, I remember I told this thing with where I wrote this journalist a letter complaining about her comment. And I did the same thing again, like many years later with another journalist.
There was this controversy about using AI to reproduce Anthony Bourdain's voice after his death. Oh, OK. And but using it for his own quotes. And that was that happened like in a documentary. And it was controversial. You know, is this OK? Is this ethical? No. But it's his own quote, but using his own voice. Can you do that? Yes. No. And this was like an article in a tech magazine. Not at all. And I was really pissed off about the way the guy described Anthony Bourdain.
He's like a mixture of David de Jorge and Jose Andres. You know, this kind of chef that do this and that and that. And I reached out to the guy to link it in and tell him, like, dude, first of all, Anthony Bourdain is not a chef. And he went like, well, I read Kitchen Confidentials and I went to Les Halles and ate his food. So I was like, OK, whatever. Well, misinformed. Exactly. Like misinform and misinforming. Like he who knows about Anthony Bourdain describes him usually as a storyteller.
And I think that's what he was. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of difficult now because I mean, he was a chef. He worked as a chef for many, many years. He's got more professional experience. He had more professional experience than I do at the moment. Now we don't really classify him as a chef, you know, like, I mean, he worked at Les Halles for like what, like 10 years or something as Chef de Cuisine in New York. Busy French restaurant. Like, but he's not really a chef. Sometimes I wonder about that.
Like, it's kind of like, well, why not? Like, because I agree with you. I don't like classify him as a chef in my mind because he's so much more. But he's also he doesn't fit. I think he was never really. I mean, like, yes, he's a chef, but there is nothing outstanding about his cooking. He's like an average French classic chef, but he's the best food writer. You know, like that's a different. That's a different sound. Yeah. You also asked me about favorite episodes.
There is an episode I love where he goes back to the house because he hit at that point. He hadn't been cooking there like for 10 years and he goes back there with any new pet and they deliver a service for 400 people and man, it's like, what the fuck is this? And I was really I really felt that episode because the first restaurant where I work was a French in Caracas. And it was kind of that place. Some nights we would deliver 400 covers, you know, like, and those places, the page is insane.
You know, it's like really, really crazy. It's really crazy. And I remember that episode really well also because like the head chef who was Tony Souschef is like this Mexican guy and he's taking over. He's super funny. And then Eric we pair, you know, like Tony and him, they both cook a station and Tony is like totally going down and Eric is kind of like just kind of like doing it, you know, and Tony's like, what? Like how are you just doing it? Like why is it so easy to you?
And Eric's like, I don't know. You know, like he's just fucking. Yeah, he was like super organized and just, you know, delivering and executing. He's just like a fucking three Michelin star chef, you know, and he just like knows his shit and it was like super fun to me to see because, you know, like, I mean, how often is Eric repair going to cook in his restaurant? You know, like on a, on the line, not that much, you know, but like that's what a real chef is.
You know, you put them on the line and they just, you know, they could just fucking do it. And I've heard stories from, you know, a lot of people say whatever and me included about Martin Verasategui, about many of his things and the way his restaurants work or whatever. But I've heard stories that one day he told all the chefs to fuck off, to go and just one person stood with him and he delivered the whole service cooking all the stations by himself.
You know, like that's, you know, this is like a 12 Michelin star chef and it's crazy to hear these stories as well. Yeah, that's crazy. I think we've all seen stuff like that, you know, like Michael Hoffman was also like that, you know, I remember when he would take over. I mean, I was very easy to, easy to impress, but, you know, and he would just do the things that I was doing, like with another person, just like, you know, a million times better. What was the story?
You told me this story once where, um, that you got a job because someone was like fucking up a lobster and you walked into the kitchen and like, get out of here. And you started like, okay, it wasn't quite like that. That, that would be a really cool story, but I was invited to a event that was in his warehouse and they were doing lobster with like Tata sauce.
So they had like a big sort of like lobster station and they were doing like, uh, different sort of like Bloody Mary variations and champagne and oysters. And that was like, you know, it was like hip hop and like lobster, oysters, champagne, Bloody Mary's and whoever was doing the lobster was just like totally going down, you know? And I was like, and I walked up and I was waiting for my lobster and, um, yeah, the guy was just in the shit.
And so I asked the guy who was in charge, like behind the bar right next to him, I was like, Hey, um, we didn't know each other very well, but he knew I was like, you know, working at a, uh, at a very good restaurant in town. And that's kind of how we knew each other. And I was like, Hey, you want me to jump in? Because I don't know, you know, the queue is kind of building up and he was like, ah, yeah, yeah.
And he was like, what's the guy was like, you fuck off, you know, just fucking kicked him out. And um, yeah. And I just kind of jumped in and, um, uh, and never really left again, uh, that night, you know, it's like my, my girlfriend at the time was really pissed off. Because, because we just, I was like, Hey, you want to go, Hey, you want to go to this event? There's just going to be some cool music. We're going to have some oysters, drink some champagne. It's all for free.
And she was like, Oh yeah, great. And then like, I'm just like half an hour later, I'm just covered in lobster guts, you know, just like cracking these lobsters open, throwing one lobster after another into the pot. And she's kind of like, were they, were they alive or what? Yeah, they were alive. Okay. And she was just come up with a drink and be like, Hey, you're going to be like cracking lobsters here for much longer. I can't talk right now. That's good. I've got eight lobsters on the go.
I need more butter. But then you got a job for that or there was someone for, for this kind of like pastrami place or something like that. Yeah, exactly. That was kind of, that's how I met these guys basically. And then I started doing more events with them and then it led to a restaurant opening, which I was involved with a little bit, but I left before the place opened.