Retirement Reset

even if you were sick. Yeah, you had to be really, really deathly sick, because even if you didn't feel well, she said, you will feel better once you get up and put your clothes on. You'll just feel better about yourself. What's up, everybody, I'm Gammy and this is positively gam. Every week I have raw, in depth conversation with inspirational people pushing for change on everything from relationships, aging, politics, wellness to the current issues facing the black communities. But

in this episode, we're going to be discussing retirement. This week's guests are some ladies who have retired and then unretired into a new field. My older sister, Karen, Karen started her work in the nonprofit sector and now in her retirement, she's a realtor and my friend Sibyl who worked with the federal government and now works for a nonprofit. And then Wendy, who is also my dear friend who was a nurse like me. We actually worked together and

now she's a therapist. Welcome ladies to positively gam. Thank you for having me. How are you guys doing, Wendy, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Adrian and Civil welcome back? Is your second time on the show? Second time? And Karen, what about you? How are you doing? I'm hanging in there. Are you thinking about changing your name? No? Uh, I am not. I am not. My hu is different from the Karens. They are referring to facts one, one hundred percent. I guess we'll just jumped right into it,

because let'sten. Let's start with the definition that we found for retirement, which refers to the time in life when one chooses to permanently leave the workforce behind. And the traditional retirement age is sixty five. So what did you each envision for yourself that retirement would be like? In one sense, what did you think your retirement was going to be like? I never thought of retirement. I never thought I would be doing nothing. I always thought I

would be doing something. Okay, what about you, Sybil, I actually thought about permanently leaving one specific workplace and then starting another chapter. Okay, so you're caring. You never really thought about a traditional retirement where you would just be chilling and relaxing, exactly, Wendy. I agree with the ladies. I never really thought about retirement in the sense of retiring, because I hadn't hit you know, sixty five yet, sort of retired youngest of us, So it just I never

really thought about it. I guess I thought that I would definitely be doing something, not just sitting around. That's interesting. I wonder if that is like something just that is new for our generation or is it out of necessity? Do we need to work because everything is more expensive than it was back in the day, or are we healthier and more energetic with what do you think the cause of that is? I think there's a shift. There's

actually a shift. You know, in the old days, you worked the job until you were of retirement age, and then you stayed home. You didn't do anything else. And I think that in today's world, some people retire and then become re employed somewhere else out of necessity, but also we have this thing where the forty is the new thirty, the fifties and new city, you know, that kind of thing. So we're not as sedentary unless we have to be anymore. So it's just starting another chapter.

Because I've been retired for eighteen months from the federal government. However, I've been employed at the nonprofit for just a little over a year, and I still have a lot to contribute. Yeah, absolutely, And I know for me, I was eligible for retirement from my former position in but of course, like I said,

I wasn't thinking about retirement. I still had to work, So mine was a transition because I was still I was doing therapy while I was still doing my nursing job, So it was really just a matter of me transitioning from full time nursing to now full time therapy. So it might have been a little different. And I think in in thinking about retirement it later on, of course, I thought about traveling. I didn't know if I was going to have grandchildren at the time. I really want

to be active in my grandchildren's lives. Just chilling basically in terms of that, being able to do what I wanted to do, whatever that is, and just trying to figure out making meaning out of those years, but definitely not just sitting. Yeah, what about you, Karen, You know what listening to Wendy when she said having a chance to be with your grandchildren and all that. One of the reasons I picked real estate is because I'm my

own boss. So it's not like I'm doing a nine to five, which basically I couldn't do anyway because of my health because of lupus. But by having this job, I do what I as much as I want or as little as I want, and that was important I couldn't. It wasn't like I could take a full time nine to five job. I still through this COVID stuff, helping my daughter out by watching her son two days a week. So it had to be flexible for me because I do want to travel. But like I said, I knew

I was going to always do something. Yeah, and I know for me, like I've retired from nursing twice, and originally it was to help Jada with the children and then actually when they got old, because now like Willow is the baby and she just turned twenty, so we have no more babies. But even once I started, once I stopped traveling with Willow when she was going on tour, I would still travel with her, and once they didn't need me for that even when I came when I

was home. Remember, Karen, we started with the sapoduct selling jewelry. We just started selling jewelry because oh yeah, oh yeah, I have us about Potter right now, And so that's Wendy. Wendy has on some of myself potty earings. But we we really just did that for fun and just for to give us something to do and give us some purpose. It wasn't anything that we really thought was going to be that financially lucrative for either of it. But it was fun. It was something to do. I just couldn't

see myself just sitting home doing nothing. It just wasn't in the books for me. So, Wendy, tell me when you realize that at the time was right for you to make this change from nursing, because I know for a while you had you were a little frustrated, and you know what, even before we get into that, I want to talk just a little bit about the difference between a job and a career because there's a famous quote that you hear that says passion is the difference

between a job and a career. But I also would say even more than that, it's not always necessarily passion. But a job is just like going to work and getting a paycheck. But a career is more like when you have a job and experience and training that all along is helping you advance to your in your career path, your goals along the way. So a career to me is more long term, a long term vision that you

have for yourself. Agreed, So to answer your question, and I'm glad you framed it that way, Adrian, because of course I've been a nurse. That's what I originally went to school for, and at first I was on a career path. So in my nursing career I did several things. So went from clinical nursing and then when I specialized

in labor and delivery, that was wonderful. I was learning and I loved it, and then I went into management from there, when I started working for Kaiser, I went into management, so that I felt was the path my career path. Then after doing several years, about seven years of management, I took a different position and it really worked. I was tired of management. Basically, and I took a different path in my career where it was very autonomous and I did like case management, so I was just

responsible for myself. I was doing this, it was new, but that morphed into something else that was an internal issue, and I became the person to handle that internal issue. So it was an internally created position, if you will, not something you would look for on the outside. So I as I did that job. It worked for my family life. I was able to still had basically like the nine to five, and I was able to do

certain things. But then I started to realize several years into it that it wasn't fulfilling and I wasn't really interacting with people. I was sitting in front of a computer all day. I was using my nursing knowledge, but in a different kind of way. Yeah, and that's when I really became very I don't know, complacent, and I said this is not gonna work for me, Like this cannot be it, and I need to work. And I've been with the company for so long there really wasn't

anywhere for me to go outside of that. I was kind of I call it the golden handcuffs. I was so vested my salary was great, I had great benefits, So you have to think about those kind of things. There's no point in me leaving now. And it was actually very difficult. I was gien hold and it was very difficult for me to move even within the company. So when I started trying things, what I realized is

I need to have interaction with people. So I even thought about going back into clinical nursing, which is unheard of. Once you come out of clinical and you get to do other things for some people. So I'm not going back to the hospitals I did. I did just that. My path were always, I think both of us were always in women's health, and so our journeys similar. I very quickly went into mid level management. We worked for Kaiser together. We were both clinical managers, and I got

so sick of that. I just did not like it. But I had such a hard time going back to the bedside people. When I would go for interviews, people didn't believe that's what I wanted to do. And I was like, I absolutely want to be back at the bedside, and it's to your benefit to hire me. Because I have experienced both, I know how important it is to be a manager, but I also want to have the knowledge to go back to the bedside. It was difficult for me to get a job back at the bedside.

People were like, I couldn't believe it. I remember because you had said you had always wanted to do L and D and I was like, go for it. But trying to get back then because you didn't have that recent experience, it was almost like the doors were locked. Yes, I had to retrain, but I'm telling you, it was one of the most satisfying jobs that I ever had. I absolutely loved being at the bedside, and it had it not been for my personal circumstances and with my grandkids,

I would have I'd still be nursing today. That's how much I loved it. I really loved it. What about you, Karen, You retired from running the corporation, running the foundation and then made a decision to go into real estate, and you had to retrain, Like it's two different worlds. You didn't know anything about real estate and the way I got into it because I was at a crossroads where I really didn't know what I was gonna do. And Whitney, my daughter, had been laid off, and she said I

I'm going to take a real estate class. And I was like, oh, because we spent a lot of time online look at the house. Yes, we we just loved looking at houses. I just we just loved looking at because she's at a point where in her family life that she's going to have to move. So we just loved local in the house. And I said, Oh, I'm gonna do it too. Nobody told me it was that hard. It's very hard. Let me tell you that real estateety is no joke. And I'm blessed because I have a broker.

My mentor is my broker, and if it weren't for her, I probably wouldn't have continued. But she has been really supportive. But it allows me to still have contact with people because I'm like you when d I I need to have contact with people. Having worked in the community, basically I was a community organized I moved up into the roles that I had, but that was basically what I My career was was community organizing, just like the rock girl. Uh, now what about you civil because you went from from

the government into nonprofit, which that was different too. Yes, and that's not what I saw, That's not what your original plan was. No, it was not, Adrian. I had started looking at my retirement figures ten ten years before I retired, figuring out what my income was gonna be. I worked for the federal government. I moved up to the highest grade level in the federal government, which of course was management, And at five years before I retired,

I knew I was gonna leave in five years? Was that because you looked looked at the numbers and you felt like financially it was okay for you to do for you were just sick and tired and you needed to be done, and you need to figure out how you could do that. Well, it was actually both. It was actually both, But I would say it was more

that I was ready to stop. By the time I left the federal government, I had a team of thirty six managers over three hundred fifty employees, and I had just felt that I had made as much of a contribution as I could and as I was willing to make in search of having some meaning in my life.

So prior to retiring, I embarked on a journey with the Center from my Body Medicine, and I began to receive training in teaching, meditation, various modes of meditation all the didactic or medical physiological benefits that go along with that, as well as the spiritual and emotional benefits that go along with the various types of meditation and practicing. And so my initial plan was to become certified and work with that particular group of people. However, I put that

training on home. My mom got sick, we had to take care of her, and so my thing was I was going to retire, do my surtification and just run meditation groups, stress management groups, resilience groups, things of that nature that help people heal and help people move forward.

And what happened was six months before I retired, because I am in recovery in a twelve step program of over thirty one years, I was exposed to the peer recovery movement, which is a relatively new movement where you have people with life experiences, whether directly through addiction or as an ally maybe a family member or close person suffer from the disease of addiction, and we received this peer recovery training so that we can support people that

want to recover. And through completing that training, I was introduced to the nonprofit that I work at today, which is a supportive housing program for families that are in the reunification process of getting their children back their children were removed due to their substance use. And it's about for me, it was about finding some meaning, making a contribution, using my own life skills in order to do that. But let me tell you what's funny about that. I

started there in that vein. However, my executive leadership skills kicked in. I tried not to I tried not to do it, really did not want another career, couldn't not take chance get a job, and I couldn't do it. And so COVID came and I worked at home for a couple of months, and in those couple of months I wrote a proposal to add value to the infrastructure of the organization. So, of course when I presented it, I was no longer serving as a mentor. I moved up.

Now I worked directly for the director of that nonprofit. Wow. Nice, Now, when did you actually had to go back to school? All of you had to get additional training, But I think yours, Wendy, was a bit more intense. Yes it was, and it was never in my nursing school was like a hazing, and I was like, I'm never going back to school. So yeah, that was challenging. I was years old and I had been out of school for many years. For me, this was a calling on my life. That's

what I realized. It was appalling on my life. And my girlfriend and former coworker, Renee. Karen and Adrian both know Renee. She was the one that said to me one day she said, you know what, she said, I'm gonna say this to you, and I know you may not want to hear it. She said, but I really think that you should consider counseling or therapy or something, just based on our relationship and how she sold me

interact with other people. And I had heard that before, but it was like whatever, And she said, but she said, it may require that you go back to school. And I was like, then that's not gonna happen. Let's not talk about that anymore because I'm not going to do it. But after a series of events, it was just really interesting. That's what kind of got it going. That conversation that we had sitting there at work, miserable on our jobs, and it started a series of events that was amazing.

That was truly amazing, and I had actually gone through a slight depression because not a slight depression, I was depressed because I was trying to get back into clinical I had applied for a job within Kaiser, which actually was the job that I started in back in when I started working there, and I got the position, and then twenty four hours later they froze the position and decided that they were not going to feel it after they offered it to me. So that was in November

of and I really spiraled down after that. I was like, what am I gonna do? Because I figured I'm gonna be working at least until I'm sixty two or sixty five, and I was fifty one. I said, I cannot do this for the next fourteen years. That's just not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. And I didn't know what I was going to do. So I figured, you know what, I have to change my attitude about this. I've got to find meaning and purpose in my life outside of this because I have to work. So what am I

gonna do? And it took me several months before I figured it out, and when it hit me, I said, oh my gosh, I may have to go back to school. So then I put all this criteria on going back to school, like I'm not taking a g r E. I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do that. I had to look for program I don't know how I'm gonna pay for. There were all these things, but then all the doors just slowly started to open up, and I can say to you, ladies, going back to school.

I wound up going back at I had just turned fifty two, so I was contemplating all this at fifty one going on fifty two, and in I went back full time school, full time work. I had to do clinical rotation, like the whole nine yards. But everything worked out to the point where I never took out a

student loan. I had a child in college, and I had a child in private high school, and I did not I paid for my education, my my graduate education through scholarships and through the job truish and reimbursement because everything just opened up. So it was something I never thought I would do, and it actually turned out being I did three years and then I had to do post graduate work to get my clinical hours. It was a five year journey. It was a five year journey.

Did either of you care and or simple? Did either of you experience any Because Wendy was talking about going through a bit of a depression and dissatisfaction with the job that she was in and trying to figure out what was gonna be next for her. Did either of you ever experience anything like that? Did not, Adrian, because what happened for me was when I went to my first Now, mind you, I had been researching my retirement to make sure that I could live outside of there.

And when I went from my first training with the Center for my Body Medicine, it was just for self fulfillment and and self exploration. However, the training just impacted me so intensely that when I left there, I knew I was going to retire and I knew I would do something to help people. Yeah, did you ever get discouraged caring as you were going through all that? Because that real estate and getting preparing for the exam and

all of that, it just seemed like a lot. It was a lot, and I couldn't in the middle of it. I was like, what are you doing? Because Wendy, I went back to school to get my pH d. Oh my goodness. Years before I'm a b D. I'm a b D. Oh wow, okay, but I got sick. That's when I got lupus. And and it turns out that the doctor said that the stress of going back is what put me over the edge, because that was oh my goodness, it was something else. But anyway, yeah, I

doing that real estate. I was like, oh my goodness, what in the world am I doing now? But again I had it. Turns out where I was taking my class is is the agency I ended up with, and it was a black woman who was teaching the class, and it's a black woman who runs my agency. She's the broker. And that made all the difference in the world because I had support, you know that, and and both of them to this day. And like I said,

my broker is just she's just an angel. It's a bit of a challenge for people to when they think about retirement and think about the possibility of doing something else,

is to really find what that something else is. Absolutely yeah, So yeah, it's hard to actually figure out what it is that you want to do and what can really work for your life now, considering you may have health issues, considering your family responsibilities, I know Phelps was always supportive of what you wanted to do, Karen, And I know he's always been supportive or anything I want to do. Yeah, and of course Wendy like that. It goes without saying

Richard is like your rock. So I'm sorry, Richard is Wendy's husband. Guys, I forgot to met to the listeners. Yeah. You said something earlier about passion, which is so true. If you're going to whether you want to call it a second career, retirement, whatever, it is truly about finding meaning and purpose in your life and doing what you passionate about. So although I went back to school and I am doing counseling now and I am working for myself,

I am my own business owner like you, Karen. That makes all the difference in the world because at this point, now that I have my own practice, while I was doing my clinical hours, my postgraduate work, I did work for something else. And it's so freeing to be able to work for myself. So it feels like retirement although I'm working. But I love what I do. When I wake up in the morning, Seriously, when I wake up in the morning and I think about the fact that

I can go to my office as well. I'm not going to my office now, but that I'm doing what I love. I'm talking to people all day long like that's right up my alley, and I I love it, so it doesn't really feel like a job. There are aspects of it, of course that I don't like, the business aspect. I have to do billing. I have to write notes and all those things and keep up with everything and talk to my taxman, which stresses me totally out. But I love what I am doing and so it

does not feel like a job. I can do this really literally and allowed close my eyes finally, so it won't feel like this. So I can work as much as I want, or I can scale back, and that's what makes the difference. Let's talk a little bit about that. What boundaries have the three of you set for yourselves in this new career opportunity, Because I know that that there have been some boundaries. I'm embarrassed to say that as I speak to people about boundaries every day all day.

It has been challenging because I work a lot, and I think I feel this commitment two people to to really help people, so it's difficult for me to say no so I've done different things. I've worked a lot, I've changed my schedule a couple of times to try to factor in time for myself and all these things. But it's still, I have to be honest, it's a

work in progress. It really is a work in progress us to carve in that time for self reflection, self care, and self care is just not about getting your hair and nails done. It's really what Sybil was talking about, just being able to relax and think and meditate and do some other things. Family time, quality time with my husband. You have to really think about it. You have to really think about it. So I'm still working on it. That's what I'll say. What do you say about that care?

And as far as setting boundaries for yourself Because of the type of industry in real estate, it's ebbs and flows. Anyway, I'm just about done until January. Nobody's really I've got a couple of things that will be settling, but nobody is putting their house on the market. Don't jump to that so quick, just putting you unnoticed, Moving on civil what did you have something that you Because I'm just leaving her, I'm just dropping that little nugget there for her.

I will just dropped that right there. Okay, alright, yes, yes, yes, I I agree with Wendy. I think that when you're doing something that you're passionate about, the challenge is to establish boundaries and maintain them. So for me, every day, I have to say I'm going in at such certain a time and I'm going to leave at a certain time. And I started out working three days a week, and I moved to four days a week, and I I

refused to go to five days a week. And so it's incumbent upon me to continue to have that conversation with myself that I'm only gonna work four days a week. I'm only going to work eight maybe ten hours a day, and then the rest of the time is for me. But it's a juggling act because when you're doing things that you enjoy, that you're passionate about, it's hard to cut it off. If you agree. I totally agree with what you're saying, and you're starting you started at three days.

I started at six days a week. I was working Sunday through Friday, and I had to I I didn't stop doing that until May this past May is when I just said Okay, I'm not working Sundays anymore. I'm just I have to stop. I had to make a hard stop. And I talked to some of my clients and put them in the schedule during the week, and people understood that. And I, as I reflect upon it, I don't even know how I did that for so long. So now I'm working five days a week. One of

these days I'll cut back. I'm expecting my first grandchild in February, so I know that's gonna that's gonna force me to do some things different. Congratulation. Yeah, thank you, thank you. That's gonna that's gonna be really interesting having all of you in the house. That's gonna be a lot of changes, a lot of changes. So have we really answered the question though, of what draws us all back into the workforce? Though? Have we really answered that? Meaning?

And purpose? Meaning? Purpose? And it could be financial definitely, Like Climble was saying, she was looking at Okay, I've been working all these years, invested with the government. I can retire in five it you have to figure out whether or not you've lived. So that's real, that's absolutely real. And the fact that she looked at that five years ahead of time, and I was looking at that also, I knew but I had several more years to work.

So I had particular financial goals in mind, my husband and I collectively, in terms of making sure are we still gonna be in a mortgage those times of things. I was still educating children, so I had some other things that were challenging knowing that I needed to continue. But I will tell you this, I am fifty nine now, I'll be sixty in June. These next five years, but we're going down downhill in terms of everything, just making

sure that financially we are set. So doing this work, it will be because I want to, not because I have to. Yeah, I agree, I agree with you, Wendy, and I think that part of my preparation for retirement was actually a shift. I had to shift the way I was looking at things. I had to shift the way I looked at my finances. I was blessed to be under the old retirement system with the federal government,

and I retired at thirty seven years of service. However, if I had retired at forty one years of service in eleven months, I would have received eighty percent of my salary. So that is the way that it worked under the old system. So I was blessed in that vein. But this is a little joke that I had to myself to prepare for that in my mind, because if we can put everything down on paper, but I had to prepare my mind, and I would tell them I'm leaving and I don't care if I got to live

in the projects. I'm out of here. And once I lowered those expectations and mind you, I used common sense. I accounted for all of the expenses that I had, but I actually ended out better then I was when I was working. I could have gotten a larger pentant that I stayed longer, but I was at a place where I was comfortable. And Wendy keeps talking about purpose and meaning, and I wanted to flip the scale on that.

I wanted the focus on the finances to be less and the focus on the purpose and meaning to be greater, and just trusting in my higher power that everything was gonna be okay, my needs were gonna be met. It's a whole mindset that has to shift, absolutely absolutely, because after you work for so long and you're giving, and you're doing it because you absolutely have to take that load off. It's a wonderful feeling. It's just so much

more meaningful. If you will, I keep using that word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm very empowering exactly. Yeah. What would you say to that, Karen, Because I feel like in yours of from Stance, it's not so much the idea of purpose, but just really something that is but plus financially and just something to keep you busy, and just something that you enjoy even though it's difficult. It's not like it's a day at the park all the time, but there's not so much pressure.

I would say, I'm just thinking about this. I just reflect back on our mother and and we first of all, we weren't allowed not to do anything. We don't know what that is. We were not allowed not If you lived in her house, you either work or go to school. You got up in the morning and you put your

clothes on, even if you were sick. You had to be definitely, you had to be really definitely sick, because even if you didn't feel well, she said, you will feel better once you get up and put your clothes on. You'll just feel better about yourself. And I don't think she would have retired had she not gotten thick. I agree, she retired, you know, in her sixties, but it was because she had cancer and she immediately started doing things to keep herself busy. She tried, she went on her

bucket list, she did her bucket list. But my thing was, that's how we were raised. We were raised that we you have a purpose. You're supposed to make the world better by your presence, and I do that through my volunteer work. I'm on board, community boards and things like that. So it's always in the back of my mind, what do you get ready to do? What are we doing today? What's on the list? One of I just can't imagine not having some purpose and something that I'm supposed to

be doing. Let me ask, did you all We might have touched on this a little bit, but did you all feel intimidated any going back to school at an older age. Did you feel like you were challenge keeping up with the younger students or were you in a situation where most of the people in the courses or in the classes were of similar age. For me, interestingly enough, I was very intimidated just about going back to school period for several reasons. But when I got there, I

was pleasantly surprised with the mean age. There were people, I would I don't really know what the mean age was, but there were adults and a lot of people were coming back for second careers. When we started talking to each other and just the introduction with the cohort was like, wow, I wasn't alone. We did have a few young people that were coming straight out of undergrad into graduate school, but there were more of us than there were of them, I would have to say that. So I got comfortable

with that idea of being there. Now I was in the older range. I would say most of the people were probably late thirties to mid forties, and then there were those of us who were in that second half of life where you have more years behind you than you do ahead of you. So there was a nice mixture. So I got comfortable. Probably after the first semester, I

started to get a little more comfortable. What about you said, I didn't have the experience of being intimidated by age with the Center for Mind, Body Benison, but I was intimidated by the credentials of my classmates. And I have my mentor who would always tell me they bought those credentials, what you have money camp buy. But I was very intimidated being in an alternative healing training like that with surgeons and psychiatrists and therapists and this credential and that credential,

and here I am. I had none of that, but I had life experiences and I had something that was natural in me to give to others. And I really just needed someone from the outside to help me see that let me see. Yeah, I would say I was intimidated just because of the I've never been good at math, and so the older I got, the more difficult. But like I said, I took the class of my daughter, so it was like, all right, supposed to do. This helped me out here. And it was the same way

when I went to grad school. We had a mixture, just like you were talking about, Wendy, and we would have study groups and the younger people would be for like statistics, which I think is just cruel. It's just it's not fair, it's not right, and because I just just that was just beyond my comprehension. But we had

the younger people were there that would help us. Yeah, And I know for myself, I have to say, obviously I'm very clear that if it was not for my family connections, I would not be in the be blessed

to be in the position that I'm in now. I'm very clear on that, but also recognizing the intimidation for me because if my entire family is already in the business and so I was a newbie, and I still feel like I'm coming in really not knowing anything and then having to adjust and try to live up to you know, who they are, live up to their names. You're doing a great job. Well, thank you. But you

know what I thought about Karen. I thought about mommy because remember when she used to do People Are Talking with Richard Share in Baltimore, Maryland. It was a talk show that came on in Baltimore, Maryland many years ago, and my mother was a regular contributor to that. She was on the panel. Awesome. I had totally forgotten about that. I remembered it the other day. Yeah. But anyway, one

last question. I want to ask one final thought that I want to have when when we're talking about careers and jobs, is there any advice that you would offer young people when they're considering a job or career path, Because what I hear now so frequently and even in my family, is that young people that have gone to school, graduating, graduated, gotten their degrees, and still are very dissatisfied with their job. And I feel like it's because they have a job

and not a career. But I don't really know how to guide people on that, and it always comes back to me, you gotta figure out what it is that you want to do, what is it that you like, What is it that you're doing in your life that you enjoy. And I always enjoyed medicine. I went to the hospital with my dad when he was making round.

I would sit at the dinner table with my because my sister was married to a die there at one time, and I would sit at the dinner table with that and he was an obstetrician in Baltimore, one of the best, and I just enjoyed those conversations. So when it came time for me to decide on a career, I started out as a medical secretary and then eventually moved on into nursing, so it wasn't really all that difficult for me.

But I just feel like people go to school and then they graduate and it was like they're getting degrees and coming out. Their jobs don't have anything to do with what they going to school for because they just they're just getting a job because they gotta. They're they're ready to get out and live their life. But they're very unsatisfied. But you know what, the kids are trained and drilled into just graduate and go to college, and

there are other things. I agree Karen, And for me, it was a mistake for me to go to college. It was a big mistake. It took me twenty years to get my degree because I just I was lost and I went because my mother said this is where I should go and this is what I should do. And so I just think that more time needs to be spent civil it with kids in school, mindfulness and just getting within themselves and figuring out who you are, because it took me years to figure I was a

secretary for fifteen years just because I don't know. I know, and when I went to nursing school. I went to nursing school later I was the oldest one in my class. I think this is we could have a very different conversation about this that presents several challenges because I think the first thing is, like Karen, said, children are just going to school and and they're going through the much heed you graduate from high school, you should quote unquote

quote to college. And so we expect kids at eighteen years old to know what they want their life work to be. And I think that's an unrealistic expectation. Some people know, like you said, Adrian, if you're sitting at the feat of a physician or something like that, some people really know what they want to do. But I think even if and say you go straight through medical school or whatever it is, whatever you decide you want to do, this thing about a job versus a career,

it depends on what's available. Okay, some kids are doing what they think they want to do, but then they get out here and they can't find the job. So that's why they're taking these other jobs. The salaries suck. There's so many other factors that go along with this. Now gap years are becoming popular after high school, getting some work experience and just really trying to figure it out. But see, the parents have to buy into that. It

just really depends on what your background is. You were just talking about your mom and you having to be productive all the time, Like you can't just sit around, get up, let's get the day started, Let's get it going. And I came from that kind of environment. Also, we're not going to waste the day. So they are all

of these factors that come into play. So in terms of advice, I think it would have to start in on the high school level, as people are beginning to think for themselves and really being able to make decisions for themselves and understanding what the benefits and the consequences are to whatever it is the environment had for them. If you have to get out there and work, some people can't go to college. They have to just work

and they work their way up. So I think there are a lot of factors which makes it difficult to give hard conk create advice on what to do. But I do think that they can explore, but that would have to start earlier in life because usually they're not exploring until they get to college or they're getting out there and they're working a job and they're miserable because they're not making the kount of money they want to make and there might be financial hardships that they have

to be able to do something else. So I think it's a different kind of conversation. That's just my personal opinion, and I feel bad that they've taken um away all the vocation on tech schools too, because I think that they were very important because everybody is not college material and you certainly can be successful without going to college, so absolutely you can. But I think you're finding out now.

They're finding out as they go into these jobs, if you will, and they've gotten if they've gone to school or whatever. But I think this generation now they're just not having it. They're not listening to all this stuff that people are telling them. They're figuring it out for themselves. They really are, and if they don't like what they're doing, then they're pursuing other things. And they have ambition and they're grinding their grinding to do the things that they

are passionate about. Yeah. Yeah, but you also when they made a good point about young people graduating from college with a degree and just needing employment because they're ready to move on. So one of the things that I would do, because in my team management team before I left the federal government, I had mostly people under thirty with bachelor's degrees, and in mentoring them, one of the things that I would ask them was what they went to school for and then whatever that is, find it

in this job. Find it in this job. Because to me, I started the federal government with a job. I ended with a career. And so a career is built on experiences unless you have something specific like a doctor or a lawyer. And one of the and I have one child that is very successful and never went to college. She went through a vocational route and it has fared

very well for her. And then I have another one that did go to college, undergrad graduate and because of that money, you better find yourself in it, you know what I mean, funding yourself in it. And you can do that even if you have to go to a technical job with an organization, uh, federal agency or whatever. There are opportunities to find yourself in it. And I think one of the things that maybe some of our young people don't understand is that experience is what makes

the career. So build on what you've already done, because you don't know what you want to do until you get there and you find it. But on the way, keep building on what you're already learning. Right, agreed, Any final thoughts for those listeners out there that may be considering another career after retirement, Go for it, Go for it, definitely. Definitely. We were only on this earth for a short time. Do what you love. If you can't do what you love,

there you go. All right, So we're gonna wind it down and roll on out of here with our wouldn't you like to know? Segment where you answer three rapid fire questions with the first phrase that comes to your mind. What books are you current really reading? What book or books? And Karen, I'll start with you. I'm reading John Meetscham's His Truth is Marching On about John Lewis. I'm usually a novel reader, but through this period of what we're

going through, I've really had to step up my nonfiction. Yeah. Now, let me ask you this because I know you and I both are big on audio books. I listened to audio books when I'm listening to fiction, but when I'm doing nonfiction, I tend to have to read it so that I can really absorb what's going on. Are you like that too? Absolutely? Yeah? Yeah, I gotta. I gotta be able to write in the march yeah yeah, yeah, highlight up words, yes, look upwards? Yeah. Absolutely? What about you, Simvil,

what are you reading. I started reading The Code of Black Law, but it was a little bit too heavy. I had to put it down because it was too real. So now I'm embarking on uncomfortable conversations with the black Man. Got it? Got it? Yeah? And you, Wendy. It's difficult for me to find time for pleasurable reading. So right now um reading thriving as an impact three hundred and sixty five days of self care for sensitive people. So I read a lot of books that give me information

that helped me in my work. So have you tried audiobooks? Absolutely? I have, and I guess. I just ordered Barack Obama's new book. And when I got it in the mail and saw that it was seven hundred and some of my pages, I said, oh no, I will be getting the audio version of that seven hundred pages. It is. Let me tell you it's seven hundred pages. And I said that's the first volume. Oh my goodness. So I said, I'm gonna have to order it as an audio book.

And the last audiobook that I listened to I listened to Michelle's on audio. Yeah, I got it, got it? Okay, Karen. One thing you want to get off your chest? I will be glad when January twenty comes. I don't need we don't need to ask why, Wendy. I think respecting people's boundaries, especially in this pandemic. I think that people have what I call pandemic boundaries, and I think people should respect them because they're different for each individual. That's

a good one. That's a good one, Sybil. I'll be glad when COVID is lifted and I can travel safely, me and you both. Yeah, all right, Sybil, what's a model you live by? Don't negotiate against yourself. That's my mantra. Don't negotiate against yourself. Don't tell yourself no, let someone else tell you, know, Wendy, The Journey of a thousand miles begins with the first that who facts? Karen? You? I just always remember my mother saying you are your

brother's keeper. Yeah. That's a good one. That's yeah one. Thank you, ladies. This was quite an enjoyable conversation, and it was good to see. Can I say that it was good to see everybody because even though the listeners can't see, we can see each other. All right, guys, thank you so much. So these are my takeaways with my conversation on retirement. Number one, take time to figure out what you really want to do. Number two, Purpose and meaning can be the catalyst to starting a new,

more meaningful career. And number three, don't let age hinder any post retirement aspirations you may have. Thank you to my guests Wendy, Sybil and Karen for sharing your retirement stories with us. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be sure to rate and review the episode. Follow me on my Instagram at gammy nars to share with me your thoughts on the episode. I'm here, I'm talking, and I'm listening and as always, folks, stay grateful. Positively gam is

produced by Westbrook Audio. Executive producers Adrian Vanfield, Narris, Jada Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown, and Fallon jethro Co Executive producer sim Hoti, Segment producer Ash Francis, Associate producer Erica Ron, editor and mixer Calvin Baylis. Positively GAM is in partnership with Art nineteen