P-Valley w/ Katori Hall

club in the Mississippi Delta. The critically acclaimed and record breaking series returned for its second season on June the three, So if you haven't already, you gotta get to it. Joining me today is my guest Katri Hall. She is a Pulitzer Prize, Olivier Award winning and Tony nominated playwright from Memphis, Tennessee. The play that I love so much that you wrote was Mountain Top, which was the fictionalized version of the Last Night of Martin Luther King's Life.

I love that play. I didn't even know you had seen. Oh, of course, absolutely absolutely. I saw it in Baltimore. She is the showrunner and executive producer of the hit Stars drama series P Valley. So welcome, Kuturi to positively gam I'm so happy to be here. And like I said, I'm such a such a fan, but we are a fan of yours and definitely a fan of P Valley. So tell me what made you decide to write a play number one about strippers and then to then turn

it into a television series like what Sparred that? So you know, I'm just a home girl from the South and I grew up going to trip last Okay, so I knew that it was this strong, vibrant culture. I think, you know, when most people think about a shrip club, they think, you know, it's a full of sad, struggling women. And and I would go to strip clubs, I would see athletes, I would see like do so latesque performers

whipping around the pole and so fast forward. I was living in New York and I started taking pole dancing classes myself, and yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah took pole dancing classes. Like. I didn't do it for very long, though, I have to say that I did not keep up with it. I only took it. I only took three classes. But it was very liberating. It really was absolutely and what you said right there liberating, and when I took

those classes, I felt so sexually empowered. I felt limba, you know, I was just like such a beautiful art form, and so I really wanted to delve into the lives of the women who created this art form. And I knew that obviously, you know, it comes out of you know, the exotic dancing and the South, and so I just really wanted to do this fusion of my love for the South, my love for dancing, and my love for just you know, women who are about their hustle. So

I ended up researching it for six years. I visited over forty clubs, interviewed over forty dancers. I remember I celebrated my thirtieth birthday in the locker room of Sin City in New York City. I was just really in love with the strength of the women and how resilient they were, even though, as we all know, the choice is hard. It can be hard when it comes to

deciding to be a part of that life. And so you know, Pussy Valley just ended up being this excavation of the hardships, the struggles, but also the dreams, Like these women are dreamers, their hustlers, and so I was just so grateful that I was able to research for so long so I can get all these details. And so I ended up doing this play, which ended up being produced at Mixed Blood Theater in Minneapolis. And and when I saw the play, I was like, oh, Ship,

this is the wrong medium. This is supposed to be a TV show. Ah, So you saw that as soon as you saw the thought as soon as I saw the plays, like, there's so much going on, and I wanted people to have Uncle Clifford and Mercedes and Miss Mississippi in their living rooms, not just in the theater. I didn't want people to have to travel to a space to be in the same room with them. I

wanted to bring those characters inside of people's houses. And so that's why I decided to flip it into a TV show, because TV is just such an accessible medium and quite frankly my favorite medium. Yeah, it's so interesting because I took that class, but I've never been to a strip Closs. Know what we gotta get you to the Closs. I know. Now I'm feeling like I've done myself and injustice, like I probably need to actually experience

it live and see what it's really like. If I were to do that, Katri, where do you think I should go for that experience? You have to get down to Magic City and they lay on them. Okay, Okay, I was so inspired by that place. We actually have more than a few dancers who are our core dancers who actually work at Magic City Kingdom Diamonds down in Miami and in Atlanta. That got an Atlanta spot now is a really great place to go, just because it's

a theatrical experience. It is, it's spectacle, its show. You know, there's new to the Yes that it's kind of the requirement being a stripper, but like I said, these women are athletes what they can do on the pole with their bodies and also together. Like I get blown away when I see two women on the pole together because they're literally holding each other up and the figure around like the wind. So those are the two places that I think, you know you should go. You gotta get

down South because the other strip club culture is different. Yeah. I actually am trying to plan a trip to Atlanta and this year for a different event. So I might have to include a trip to what was the name of it, magic Magic City City? Okay, I might have to do that. So when you were in the room pitching p Valley to the TV executives, you know what was their response? They're like, is this woman insane? Or was it well received? Did they jump on it right away?

There was a lot of collection of pearls. I remember I brought this sizzle reel and it had that song as the background, like cut off together, and they were just like, whoa, this is a lot and you don't. It's understandable, but also frustrating, right, you know, I knew that the strip club culture was something to be celebrated and understood, and you know they were just looking at it with you know, something of their noses. Me I'm like, oh my gosh, it could be exploited. It could you know,

it could. It could have easily gone in the complete wrong direction, in the wrong hands. I totally get that, totally got it. There are some places that wouldn't even let me come in and pitch. They were like, no, we're not stepping on that cultural land mind. But stars. I remember it was the last place I pitched, and I remember I was late, you know, the l A traffic, and I remember getting in there and I just poured out, you know, the why of why I wanted to do

this series and tell this story. And I think at the core of it, you know, this is about celebrating the hard work and black women and black women who are survivors. Yes, you know, this particular profession is very complicated and not everyone understands it. It's very misunderstood. But they saw past the kind of lastidiousness. I think, you know, some people came to the pitch with in their mind and they really saw the truth of what I was trying to do, which was to humanize this world and

these women. And I think the way that you do that, the way that you humanize the character is by making them so three dimensional, like we actually get into their lives so that we can relate to them. Is that right? Absolutely? Absolutely?

You know that I was so blessed to have been able to sit in not only the locker room with a lot of these women, but also going to their homes, meeting their sons, meeting their husbands, you know, really just integrating myself into their lives like a fly on the wall. And so I really created that almost journalistic approach when it came to the research in helping me, you know, create this fictionalized world where everyone felt so human. Everyone feels like a sister or a cousin or a mama.

You know, we know all of these women and all of these men. We've crossed paths with them many times, and I'm just so glad that our audience not only they see, you know, their family members, but oftentimes they see themselves when they watch the value. Now, I want to talk a bit about the casting too, because I'm assuming the women and that are cast in the series are real strippers. Is that correct or no? Then how the hell did you so? How in the hell did

they learn to day? It was a process? Listen, because what I have done is watch a pole dancing contest on YouTube and you have to be strong and powerful and it's no joke. It was crazy. What's so cool is that we have very long casting process because for me, as a writer, I'm very adamant that the soul matches the soul of the character that I've created. Quite frankly, the acting and who that person is, what they're going to bring to the role in terms of essence, it's

the most important thing I left out in that. Let's talk about Brandy Evans, for example, she used to be a background dancer. She's danced for Snoop Dogg, She's danced for Katie Perry. She just she was a dancer. She had never you know, tripped, but you know she knows about a muscle memory and getting routines down and so, you know, for her, in terms of her particular trajectory,

we just threw her in all dancing classes. She followed dancers like she studied and learned the art of it, just like she learned the art of hip hop dance. Then you had other people like Shannon Thornton, who has never been off the pole in our lives. Let's step back for a minute, because Brandy Evans plays Mercedes, so she's the main character. So who is this Shenon Thornton plays Miss Mississippi, right, yes, and so that's her thing.

But now she trained so hard, gotten so sore. You know, we put them like in a boot camp, so if they were where of the city that they were living in. Once they got cast, we put them on a pole dancing program and so they learned, you know, from level one the way as far as they could go in terms of cultivating their skill set, so that when they got to set, they could do something, but of course we have these amazing dance doubles who step in and

step up and do the way more complicated tricks. But let me tell you something, our ladies they sell it like you could. You cannot think that it's knocked them up on the pole, just because the way that it's edited and just how hard they work, Like we can really overlap a lot of their the dancing between them and the doubles when people are watching the show. So it's been a hard road, but they're hard workers. And so in terms of casting, you know, like I said,

it's all about are they really good actors? They feel like the character that comes first, and you know, the skill set of pole dancing, it's something that they've all kind of trained together. Now, the first season of the show was entirely directed by women. I'm sure that was intentional, and why it's interesting. I was open men directing, I really was, but you know, I have a very tough

interview process. So I remember during the interview process, I would be like, so what's your idea of the female gays? And also interesting was that the male directors that I you know, asked this question too. They never really have thought about it. They had never really done it in their work. They felt like it was necessary. And for me, the Female Gays is about centering the female experience looking

through a woman's eyes. And it just so you know, every time a woman director, you know, stepped up to the play, they had already been dealing with it within their own work. And they also understood that, you know, historically women have not been framed so particularly women like strippers or or prostitute sex workers, and so you can very easily just center on the sexiness of a woman instead of who a woman is, who that character is.

And so because this show is so much it's filtered through the female games, it's you know, those women, those female directors, they just answered that question so well that it was just obvious that those were the women who were the right folks for the job. Yeah, and like you said, it is a topic and how it's portrayed, you know, is extremely important because it can go left and they can go straight to the sex and the sibiousness that tends to come along when you think about

strip clubs. For example, I remember asking a guy if you were, you know, lensing a beautiful dance, what would your focus on. And the guy was like, yeah, we'll travel the camera will travel down her body and we will see her shape and then we'll go behind her and to see how plump she is. And it was

just like, nah, dog, that's what we need. So what were the kinds of comments and that you've gotten from fans of the show, Like when you're walking down the street, I don't really be walking down the street too much. I'm like I'd been holed up in the house trying to finish these scripts. But you know, when I have been able to, like it's usually like my you know, my family like it like gatherings, you know. Unfortunately, hitter or whatever, they're just like, oh my god, look cause

listen you did. That's like my life. That's my uncle, that's actually me. You know, there's a lot of, like I said, people feeling reflective that you know, sometimes people are like, okay, episode two, there was too much. There's a lot of lou y'all went there. Now. I saw an interview when you said that like Uncle Clifford was based on some members of your family or people that you know. Is that true? Absolutely true? So Uncle Clifford is a fusion of my real uncle Clifford, and my

mom and my dad. I wanted this character to feel very feminine and masculine and equal measure, and so I just pulled the best and the worst attributes from those three people and like put it in a pot, mix it together, and then out pop the fiction of Uncle Clifford. And something that I like to do in my work is I always love to name a really great character

after a family member. It's a way to you know, pay homage to my living ancestors, the people who are with me, who raised me, who you know, make me right the way that I do, which is you know, steeped in Southern nous and just those kind of like quick witty things that Uncle Clifford says and the rules. So it's the way that people talk in the show is how I grew up speaking. And the people who you know, my closest family members, they just really poured that sound into me, and so it comes out of

my fingertips every time that I write. Now for the listeners, in case you don't know, Uncle Clifford runs the Pink. The Pink is the club and un Clifford is the one who runs the club. Are there any other characters that were plucked from your life. Really feel like every single character feels like someone I've known, or there's a sliver of me inside of all of the characters, yes,

in terms of their personalities. And I grew up with all sisters, and so the sisterhood that happens in the locker room and on stage and on the main floor is something that I know very well, having grown up with a lot of women and a lot of extrogens in the house, you know, for good or or bad. It's inspired by everything that I've experienced in my life, in addition to all of the research that I've done

over the years. When it comes to strip club and strippers. Okay, then let's talk a little bit about the relationship between Uncle Clifford and Little Murder the rapper on there. I was surprised by that. Why were you surprised? It just seemed like a hook up to me. I just it's like, he's a rapper, Like, okay, so what was that about. So that's exactly because I wanted people to be like, oh my god, what is this? They feel like a

very odd couple. And yet yeah, and all the undercover you know, because that's real it is some folks out here any streets and they're trying to figure out who they are, who they're attracted to. And it was very surprising, I think, you know, in in that first episode to Uncle Clifford for a homeboy, Little Murder played by j Alfons Nicholson to be like, you know, all just like lovey dovey, like just looking Uncle Clifford up and down.

And so we really wanted to center a black queer relationship in the show's still very undercover, undercover, particularly in season one, and you know, Uncle Clifford being much older than the Murder, having gone through a lifegown south where the home of be it just extremely ranked to the point where you know, you know, you can get killed for being who you are, still can be killed for being who you are, right And so really did not want to put their relationship out on front Street, and

the Little Murder was all trying to you know, take care out on dates and whatnot. And so if anyone has seen you know, the first season, at the end, Lt Murder actually shuts her after all that kind of you know, rolling up on her, and that really is a slap in the face to the character of Uncle Clifford because it's just, oh my gosh, my my worst fear of not being recognized and embraced by someone that

I could potentially love. You know, it's traumatizing. And so we spent the first season really looking into that, that down lowness and how it's very hurtful on an emotional level. Um, and we're gonna pull that thread into season two, and I hope people are ready for the roller coaster that we're about to take them off. In regards to those two write there, Yeah, I'm ready. Now I want to talk a little bit about Mercedes and her mom because I was sick of her. I was sick to her

mom at the end of Look girl, what church lady. Yes, it's poor Mercedes. Is she ever gonna be without I guess you can't really give everything away, But is she ever be able to recoup from that? Because I'm like, that was everything. It was all her money. But for all y'all who don't know, like Mercedes, who was our handline, our best dancer at the club, you know, she had been trying to retire for years in order to you know, cultivate a relationship with her daughter and to get this

gym for these major retes. You know, she was a coach for a major scene, and so she had say to all her scuirrell, all her money and her hypocritical bible, something relot of a mama, her trees would find deals, all of her money for the dance studio. And so her dream wiped out by her mother is trauma like like on on twenty five, like it just up ended

everything that she'd have been working for. And so the audience, which totally made sense, hates her truths were by included, you know, And I think it's because you know, there are a lot of mother daughter relationships that are very traumatic and they're toxic, right, and I think that storyline, in particular, those two characters really allow us to see our own relationships with our mother's and them and beyond

the relationship with the mother. For me, what was so off putting was the hypocritical nature of her of the mother with the church, the whole church thing, and you know, the thing of being down south where there's these respectability of politics at play, where you know, I ran into that when I was even pitching the series, right in these rooms where people were thumbing their nose I don't know if we should do a know about strippers there, you know, are these women who have family members who

they'll take the money that they're making, you know, shaking it because right, they'll talk about them the next second,

because it's not seen as something that's moral. Um. And I really wanted to highlight that because I just think that there's a lot of judgment in our community, in every community, real talk, and so I think this particular relationship allows us to really deconstruct those feelings and those tensions when it comes to how religion oftentimes plays a very unfortunate role when it comes to how there's divides

and like moral judgment communities and our families. To lastly, but not least, I love the relationship between Mississippi and Diamond. Is that right? Yeah? Because I think Diamond is so sweet. Are we gonna see that blossom more? We're gonna see something. We're gonna see something. Okay, We're not gonna give it away.

I understand, I totally understanding. Before we wrap up, Cotri, I want to focus a little bit just on your own career, and I wanted to know if there was anyone growing up as you were coming and navigating your career that you emulated. I actually had a conversation with some folks and entertainment directors, and I was saying how important writing is, and I just feel like we need more writers, We need more Black writers, because I think

there's just such an array. We have, this an abundance of stories that we could be telling about our lives. And it's not all just about slavery. It's all just about you know, drugs and gangs. We live full lives as a culture, just like anybody else, but the stories aren't being told. So I just think writing is so important because can't you gotta start from somewhere, and it starts with the writing. To me, I love this question because as a Black writer, I am stepping into such

a beautiful tradition. There's so many amazing Black writers that have come before me, whether it's Tony Morrison, Augus Wilson. I would say, growing up, I thought I was going to be a novelist. I didn't think that I was going to step into the world of drama just because you know, I'd like to be by myself. But then as I grew up, I love the idea of community and that's what drew me to theater. So I think one of the writers that probably has influenced me the

most is August Willson. August Wilson absolutely giants of the American theater, you know, just everything that he's written and everything that he stood for. I used to remember I met him one day and I was like, I want

to be like you when I grow up. Obviously he laughed at me, but eventually I got to a u is where I wanted to be more like me when I grew up, and it was seeing August Wilson, you know, write his world like the people around him that I think made me feel as though that I could do that. And so I would say August Wilson is probably one of my greatest influences, particularly stepping into the world of dramatic right. Yeah, I think I've seen every one of

his plays. I absolutely love him. What advice would you have for any up and coming play rights out there? Keep your eyes on your own paper. What I mean by that is, oftentimes we get swept up into what the trend is and what the industry says it's the thing to do, and we want what other people got, who they got their deal or they've getting their play done at that place. And at the end of the day, you have to write what makes you special, what makes

you unique. It's your voice. Try not to replicate somebody else. You're gonna be inspired influenced by another writer. But the more you write the stories that only you can write, I think the more successful you'll be. Good advice, Good advice. Now what do you have coming up next? What can we look forward to? So? I have this play called The Hot Wing King that won the Pulitzer last year. It is going up at the Alliance Theater down in Atlanta and early and I'm directing it, so it'll be

my theater directorial debut. I actually got a chance to direct the season finale of The Valley season two, okay this past earlier this year, which I was super proud of. So I'm definitely stepping into my little directing lane, which I really love. Like we need more directors of color, female directors. This season was directed by all women as well, so I just really excited to become part of the directing family when it comes to artists. Congratulations, I'm excited

for you. Thank you, You're very welcome. I look forward to seeing that play as well. Yeah, come on down to Atlanta. We got to get you there, and I know I gotta be that way. Now it's time for a segment. Wouldn't you like to know? I have a couple of rapid fire questions I'd like you to answer. Okay, what book are you currently reading? It's interesting, I'm actually rereading The Piano Lesson by August Wilson. It's one of my favorite plays and it's about to be on Broadway

with Senor Jack. Yes, okay, what is one thing you want to get off your chest that people need to stop being racist? It's heartbreaking the other day the young white kid going to Buffalo and shooting up you know, black folks, just because of all this hatred. It's just something that obviously is They talk about COVID being a virus, but that's a virus. Just you know, I want everybody to figure out a way to not just be Oh

I'm not racist. People have to be ti racist. So that's you know, I'm always on my soapbox about that is a lot of people are. Yeah, that's a really good conversation to have. And I was on Instagram and was looking at a comment that Amanda Seals made and my response to that was like, yeah, how do we because because it is something that we can't continue to ignore, um, the hate of white supremacy. But it's also like, how do you fight that exactly? You know, how do you

fight that? It's something to really think about and it's a really important conversation that I think we need to start having. So thank you for that. And what's the model that you live by? That's a good one. Um. Uncle Clifford has a new rule this season, and it goes like this, don't try to be everybody a cup of tea because you have nothing left to sit on for yourself. That's the rule, as that thing of you know you, you really gotta protect yourself, be yourself, don't

try and just be out there. Make sure you keep something special for for you at the end of the day. Yeah, got you. That sounds like a good one. Where can we find you on social media? You can find me at Atuatory Hall, Instagram, and Twittle. I was able. I was of that generation. I was actually able to get my name. I got it early, alight, I got my name. So that's how you can find me. That where y'all

can get me a inquator Hall dot com. Awesome, thank you so much, Thank you for stopping by Positivity Gamp and everyone go watch p Valley. New season is out now, come on down to the pank. My first takeaway after this conversation, it's really just acknowledging the importance of black writers. We have so many stories to tell and no one

is gonna tell them better than we will. Secondly, every show isn't for everybody, but I hope you guys will check out pe Valley and not dismiss it because of some preconceived idea that you've cooked up in your head. It's really a good show. It's out on Stars right now, so check it out and that's our show. You can follow me online at Gammy. Naris also help us out by leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts and by hitting the follow up button on I Heart Radio.

Stay grateful, y'all, See you at the peak Positively. Gam is produced by Red Table Talk Podcast and I Heart Radio. Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Naris Balin, Jethro and Jada Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is Calvin Bailiff, and our associate producer is Irene Bischoff Burger. Our theme song is produced by D Beats five