Colorism and Racism w/ D. Channsin Berry

this is positively gam. Every week I have raw, in depth conversations with inspirational people pushing for change on everything from aging, relationships, politics, wellness, to the current issues facing the black community. Today, I'm talking with my good friend d Chants and Barry on colorism. And Jan is a producer and director known for his documentaries Dark Girls and

Dark Girls Too. Both films document colorism within the African American community, a subject that many African Americans are still affected by today. Let's start with a definition of what colorism is. And the reason why I want to do that is because I in this conversation and I think it will happen. There's such a thin line to me between colorism and racism. So tell me what your definition of colorism is. I think it's discrimination within people of

color against themselves. You know, the different hues light skin, the verse dark skin, dark skin versus light skin, but at all starts with the rape of the slave. Well, the definition that that I have in front of me is a discrimination within a racial group that favorites people with lighter skin over those over darker skin. But I think we do need to understand that that discrimination goes both ways. What was it about colorism that made you decide that you needed to make a film about it?

Growing up in Eastars, New Jersey, and to build Duke, who was my partner on the first one, grew up in Poughkeepsie, New York, and both of us being too dark skinned little boys for me, I was told, and I was too dark, too ugly. That left some scars I was. I was never the first choice or the second choice for the girls. So it was painful. So that did a little bit of a job on my psyche. And myself was was quite low until I became a

senior in high school. And maybe because what I was what I saw myself becoming, and that was already a personality since my father kind of shut me down in terms of speaking and having an opinion. So I was very shy and quiet, and I didn't have a voice. So I thought that radio might be the thing for me because I could speak and nobody could see me,

so I could hide. But fast forward, you know, when Bill and I came together and decided to do Dark Girls one, we totally understood what it meant to be looked upon in a negative way because of your skin complexion, your hum But somewhere in these seventies eighties, it became okay to be dark. People like Richard Rowntree and Wesley Snipes and Eddie Murphy who hit the big screen and made it cool and sexy to be dark. Sydney Portier made it cool and sexy to be dark. But that

didn't happen with dark skinned living. That was gonna be my question because because you're a man, but you focused on the experience from a woman's perspective, and and that was the catalyst for that, because you felt like men were accepted the dark skinned men. Yeah, we became you know in the vogues, so to speak. You know, we were we were cool, we were sexy, we we wanted, you know, we were wanted, but for the duck skin female.

The tragedy kept going on, the trauma kept going on, the drama kept going on, the name calling kept going on. What was that movie that Spike Lee did? School Days? And and think about all the different like the pencil test, the snow and blow like that was snow and blow was a new description to be like light, light enough where you be compared to snow, and then if your

hair can blow in the wind. I think when I saw Dark Girls, the first one, the thing that was really so painful was when the little girl was picking out who was the smart girl and who was the dumb girl, and who was the pretty girl and who was the ugly girl. She was so young, she couldn't have been more than four or five years old, and that was ingrained in her already, So you know, what, what chance did she have? And where does that all

come from? When I think about it, Adrian is so sad that children are hit with this, and I think a lot of it begins at home, and then the other it begins with the media and what these children and what people are seeing on magazine covers. When you don't see yourself on a magazine cover, right, I think we have to even go back further than that, chan because it was all part of the plan, you know what I mean. We we we have been totally decimated

as a culture, as a people. We were brought over here, robbed and stripped of everything everything everything we are, history, our language, our families, our religion. We had nothing, and we were made to believe that. So you talk about colonization, it's not just physical colonization, it was cultural colonization because we were meant to and taught to believe that in order to elevate ourselves we had to be like the colonizer. We were taught to accept their language, their their way

of dress, their belief systems, all of that. And in all of that, we were just made to feel like nothing. Yeah. Beat into submission, lynched into submission, raped into submission, which is how we got all those different hues in the in the first place. I took a trip to Ghana to visit the slave castles and we shot there for Dark Girls too, And that's probably one of the deepest trips I've ever taken in my life, was to go to a slave gem where they held women and be

able to feel spirit in that place. Adrian just wore me out and to doctor Sheryl Grills, who was my consultant at the time, Yes, I love her. We had this amazing voyage into the past. We got to the door of no return when we left the Woman's dungeon and I I fell out. I couldn't reach the door, and my crew was around me and they were emotionally moved. I was weeping uncontrollably, but they picked me up, Adrian

and brought me to the door of no return. There was a sick they would Shell was doing the ceremony over me. And it was the first time that I've experienced my birth and my death at the same time. And it happened to be four hundred years last year. That marked the slave trade from there to the rest of the world, and I was back where I started from. So it was really deep. So I had to bring that to the film, and it changed the whole film

of Dark Girls too. And when going through the other parts of the dungeon and hearing the stories of the rape of the African women and knowing that they would take the women from the dungeons into this court in the middle court. They had a something that you would lift up and at the bottom was the ocean. So they would take the women who were chained and dunk them in the ocean. In that little opening. Duncan cleaned them off. These were Dutch, Portuguese, French and British traders.

And then the babies that were born under that we're left there and to be raised by people there on the shores and started a whole another community of light skin next people. And that's how it started. We started to start because of rape. Colorism started because they're right, and we haven't gotten over that since because we never got professional help for it. So we have division. Yeah, you know, like we all know the stories of the you know, the house slaves and then and the field slaves.

We we we all know that. And again that was their way to keep us separated and fighting against each other. We talked about colorism on Red Table as well. And the reason why I wanted to talk about it again is just because I just feel like there's not enough hours in the day. You can't have too many conversations about this. The last thing that we want to do is to find things that once again separate us and divide us as a culture. So that's certainly not what

we what we're trying to do here. Actually it's just the opposite, because I feel like if we keep shoving this to the back, because it all, it all reflects on how we communicate and how we treat one another within our own race, and we we can't keep denying

that colorism exists. And I know in my family particularly, you know, and I've shared this before with my with my grandmother, she was light and we had neighbors that were very, very dark, and she did not want us to play with those children, knowing what you knew now about colorism and you being a lighter in complexion at this age that we are, do you do you have issues with being lighter in complexion? Has never come up? Absolutely,

I definitely did. I definitely did. Growing up. I felt like during that time there there were like you would you would get beat up just for being light, scared with long hair, you know. I remember getting teased about having white people in my family because our you know, our background is Portuguese. I guess that's where my nose

comes from. I have a huge nose to me, And yeah, I remember getting teased about that and really really feeling some kind of way about it, like really arguing like, you know, I'm not white, you know, it's it's no white people in my family, all of that, and just

really really being upset about it. And I even when I talked to Jada, Jada mentioned that, you know, back in the day when when we used to everybody, would we be talking about, well, I got Indian in me a Cherokee and all of that, as if just being black was not good enough, like everybody. First of all, let's be clear, everybody is mixed with something. If you've been in here more than how mixed with something? That's right,

you're mixed with something. Okay, don't give a damn how dark you are, how you are with something, thank you, you know, but we've been brain wash to believe that we're not good enough and being mixed having another bloodline validates your worthiness. Wow. That that's a sad state of affairs right there. You know what I always thought, how can I and how could black people be racists? No one who looks like me ever stopped a white person

from getting a job. Now, listen, when I when I talk about white and black, I'm not talking about all white people, and I'm not talking about all black people. So let's get that straight. People like me have never stopped a person who is white from getting a job, being denied housing, medical care. Just it just wasn't us. We we didn't do that to people. It was done to us. So what does it make one feel like after years, hundreds of years of being denied? What would

you feel like? And isn't it interesting that as damn as as we are as a people, there's such a stigma on seeking professional help for that, and we're probably the ones that needed the most because we are so psychologically and emotionally damaged. I agree with you. I think that everybody on the planet is on this on spectrum of some type of mental illness, but especially African Americans.

That's one of the the things I'm tackling in my next documentary called The Covered Mind, Mental health and the Black community. I'd like to focus on on depression and anxiety, especially right now. I think all of us are on the edge and we don't know what that means because you don't know what's going to trigger you you losing or going off that edge? You know, is that the incident into the word, is that another murder? You know,

we just don't know, Adrian. I don't give a damn how much money you make don't make, or what kind of car you drive, or kind of how you live in Kine you live in a black man is a stop sign of woman being killed. Absolutely, and that's been proven over and over again. I got a lot of questions, you know, like how do we get here? And why

do you hate me so much? I've never done anything to you, and it's and it seems shallow, like just the color of your skin, because you know what, that's something behind behind, because of fear and guilt, because you know what you've done. You know, all folks used to say how you start, it's how you end. And I think about that when I think about the history of America.

If America started with the dregs of society coming from Europe and the Native Americans were already here here, and you could say you come in and you discovered America when they were people already here before. That's the first lie, isn't it. But then when you have those kinds of people coming over with that kind of mentality who don't fit in over there, but they're trying to start a new life over here. But they're the poorest of the poor.

They're criminals some of them, and they're you know, not well to do people. That's the base of America. And then and then you so you've got stolen land, and then you bring in stolen people from Africa and you tell them and you teach them what you want them to know and what you want them to do exactly. And there you go. Let's let's talk about that for

a minute. Because Dr Grills, you you spoke about Dr Sheryl Ells, who was one of your consultants on both films, I believe, and one of her statements that I remembered so much is an African proverb. Until the lion has a historian, the hunter will always be the hero. And that really, really really stuck with me because we have got to take responsibility for our history, for teaching and learning our own history. We can't expect them to. You

see what they've taught us. Black children don't know African history. They know African American history, which starts with slavery, right, because our history doesn't start with slavery. No, that's what I'm saying. African history does not start with slavery. That's one of the things, one of the most important things that I think our children are missing. So we have

no sense of pride, no sense of self self worth. Well, Adrian, when you have when you have people who have been called been identified five or six different identities over the last four years, you have a problem. When you when you've been colored, black, Negro, African American, African American, and Nigga and and most of those things. Most of these identities were not given to you. We're given to you by people who don't look like you. There's a problem.

So we're always having people identify us, and we have to take that power back to we identified. We say what we are, we say what we want, we asked and demand the things that we want for us. There needs to be a black and black agenda. Oh say it again, say it again, only louder. There needs to be a black agenda, and we need to hold these politicians from the ground up to the White House and giving us and making that and demanding this happens. Because

we've never had one. We've had civil rights, but civil rights for everybody, but we forgot to ask for black rights as far as I'm concerned, and this is the time. This is a crossroads right now in America and in the world, and if we don't get this right, there's gonna be some serious issues. We need to have a black agenda, find out, find out exactly what we want

and how we wanted and when we wanted. Gather ourselves, gather our minds, gather our spirits, gather our souls, gather our people, come to a decision about that, and then push the ejenta forward. I know, I so agree with you. How do we get there? Who? Who are the decision makers that would bring that agenda forward? I mean, how do we even get to an agenda? How do we How do we come up with what the agenda is? Who are the people that are going to come together

to do that. We don't have any leaders like we had in the fifties, sixties, in part of the seventies. And the reason why is that nobody wants to die for that. I want to get back because we we are supposed to be talking about colorism, and so I want to get back to the women because some way, dark women have really been made to feel unworthy and unloved, unprotected, and the women we are supposed to be the nurturers. We are the ones that are going to nurture and

raise the children in the community. How can we teach our children to love themselves and love one another if we don't feel love for ourselves. I say this all the time. I think we men have damn near destroyed the two things that give us life, the planet and women. And until women are healed, we will not be healed as man. You know, women have always been by our sides as black as black men. They've always been here. They've never you guys, have never gone anywhere, because if

you had, we wouldn't be here. You have been our

secret weapons. I don't want to deny the experience that dark women have by generalizing and making it all women, because I really, I really feel, really really strongly about this and how colorism has affected us, and like even in you see it more in the Third world countries than you do here in the United States, but just just the use of like the bleaching creams in media in Hollywood, strongly strongly in hip hop, where when you look at the videos, all you see are the light

skinned women with long hair, you know, as the fly women, as the love interest as the lead. My grandson did a video recently and he used a young lady who had the afro as his lead. I was so excited. I was so excited and proud about that it should not be that that should be the norm. But it was not the norm, and it stood out that's a problem.

If light skin and long hair blowing in the wind is the only thing that you identify as beautiful, we are so brainwashed with the European standards of beauty and this then just start. I mean, like this has been going on for years, and we do seem to right now be in a position where black is beautiful and natural hair and darker skin tone are coming to the forefront and being looked upon more positively. But the thing is that these moments and time just kind of come

and go. It seems like they don't stick and stay, Like we went through that back in the sixties with black you know, James Brown, I'm black, and I'm proud, but but it didn't stay. It didn't stick and stay, and and that's my concern about this. When I looked at dark girls too, when I watched that, I was blessed enough to be able to come to that and it was powerful. But it's saddened me that the scene with the girls from E c R. El Camino Real, which is right down the street from me, those young

ladies were in their crying. That's the scene that still gets to me today. Absolutely pain for to watch, pain for to watch. We set the cameras up, the girls came in all shades between ages of fourteen and seventeen years of age. But what came out of that conversation with these young girls was life changing for me. Some of the emotions that were brought up by these young girls about colorism and being dark skinned, and being late skin and being not accepted and thinking of committing suicide,

and it just broke my heart. I have a hard time watching that scene in the movie today, but it moved me. It moved me, and that the fact that these babies are still going through this today, it's unthinkable. And they were crying about their experience, particularly the dark skinned girls were crying about the experiences that they were having with their classmates and and the way they were treated and discriminated against, not be popular just based on

pair skin color. And how is it that companies are able to market these bleaching creams that are so detrimented,

that are carcinogenic. Quite frankly, in these third world countries, how are they because they don't even offer that ship here they cut to the point where they offered in the Congo in other places, also also in India and also in China, right, because that that's another thing that we can't we cannot forget this is we're making it sound like it is just African American issue, a black issue. Colorism is a global issue. Globally around the world, Darker skin,

darker hues are looked upon as negatively. So one of the questions I asked what I was in Ghana of one of the sisters who I interviewed, who had been bleaching her skin and her skin had turned dark blotches all over her body. I asked her she did she believe in God? She said, of course I do. And I said, well, if you believe in God, do you think God made a mistake when he when he made you? And she could completely silent and then she said no. So I said, well, so why are you trying to

change God's beauty and gift? You have that melanie in your skin to protect you. My dear, You're beautiful, so why would you want to take that away. Let's talk a little bit about how we can heal as a community. And one of the things that we talked about that I feel extremely strong about is educating our children. What are some of the things that that stand out for you chan as as a way towards healing. Recognize and

that you have an issue. It's the first thing talking about it with someone and then talking about it with someone who's a professional who can possibly helped you out to get through this situation. All kinds of frapies available, But you know, we've given so much away of ourselves aching for many, many, many many years. What do you mean by that? Sometimes it feels like that black people create and white people conquer. Yeah, we create and they take,

they monetize. Yeah, And we could say that with jazz, we could say that with fashion, We can say that with a whole bunch of things that we that black people have invented that some white people have taken for themselves as a creator. Given the current climate and discussions playing out about race, specifically black lives, how is colorism playing a part in all of this? Like studies show that Darker people are more likely to get arrested or

be incarcerated. Darker women are more likely to serve longer prison terms and sentences, women are paid less and so and and that's for me where it gets a little gray for me because is this colorism or is this racism? Well, that's a very good question. Or is it a little bit where is it a little bit of both? I guess I don't know. I keep thinking about what will it take for some white men to have a conversation

about racism and colors in this country. I was getting ready to say, Jim, because we're we're talking about having the conversation should amongst ourselves, But are we the ones that need to be having a conversation with We don't need to talk to each other. We know what da all is going on. It's it's it's white white folks that need to have a conversation about racism colorism in this country because they've never had it, especially white men.

They're in they're really in denial because because the first thing that that I will hear from the man of means who is in corporate America. That's something I don't want to talk about. That I don't want to do I don't want to deal with that. They say they have that privilege to say that and to do that, and to be that, to become that when I what people like me don't have that street to travel down. So the conversation about racism and colorism and sexism should

be had and started with white America. But if people who looked like you and I close your mouth and close your pocketbook, it would tear this country up. But the other thing is this money is one thing. Yes. The other thing is that if I don't know what you're thinking and how you're thinking, that disturbs the apple cart. Also because I can't figure it out, shut your mouth and shut your pocketbook. That's how you get America's attention.

Oh oh ta, you just said a word. So but the thing about it is that it's been proven to us by white men. They don't invest in you and they don't talk to you, so why would they work for us? People are not connecting the dots. The too busy thing about Democrat, Republican dadada, dada, color dadada, it's deeper than that. All you gotta do is just listen and watch and pick out all the places that you're not. Are you on Wall Street? Are you in the boardrooms

on Wall Street? Or you in the wardrooms of the fourtune companies? Where are you in decision making? But it comes to people like us nowhere to be found. But this is where the turning point is, right now, the crossroads. You can do that. We can do that. You have to elect people who have your best interest at heart. But first you gotta have to have an agenda to know that left wing, right wing, same bird, which goes back to we need a block agenda. We talked about reparations.

What does that look like? So maybe it looks like a tax break. We're not paying taxes when you're over sixty, sixty years old anymore, and maybe everybody under sixty of free education, in free medicare, free medical, free education, anywhere you want to go, anything that happens to you, you're covered in. Over sixty, you pay no taxes. It's definitely like the idea of free education because college tuition is ridiculous, but it only makes it only makes America better. We're Americans.

We're Americans. We are Americans. Let's get that straight. We are Americans. We're not going anywhere. We're forty million strong and we're not going anywhere. Well said, Chance, Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you, my dear. So it's a pleasure to see and talk to you. But we haven't talked like this before. So this is a good thing. This is another good thing. It's another good

A few takeaways from the conversation. People need to see color to begin to recognize that colorism is an issue, and the healing conversations. Remember that listening and acknowledging the experiences of others is paramount. Beauty has no skin tone. There needs to be a black agenda so we can take back the power. However, we never had the power to begin with. Think on that education seems like such an expansive idea, but teaching our children the history we

need them to know and believe starts at home. Remember the little Boy, the video of the little boy walking to school saying affirmations that his mama had taught him. I am smart, I am blessed. I can do anything that puts such a mile on all of our faces. But something as small as teaching your children small affirmations and words of encouragement to believe in themselves and to believe in us as a people. That's a way to

begin and last, but never least, remember to love yourself first. Tonight, go rent Dark Girls and Dark Girls to an Amazon. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be sure to rate and review the episode. Follow me on my Instagram at Gammy nars to share with me your thoughts on the episode. I'm here, I'm talking, and I'm listening and as always, folks,

stay grateful. Positively GAM is produced by Westbrook Audio. Executive producers Adrian Vanfield Narris, Jada Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown, and Valin Jethro Co executive producer sim Hoti, editor and mixer Calvin Bailiff. Positively GAM is in partnership with Art nineteen m