4th Time's A Charm: Marriage and Divorce

just all silent and struggling, not even together. Really, what's up, everybody? I'm Gammy and this is positively gam Every week I have raw, in depth conversations with inspirational people pushing for change on everything from aging, relationships, politics, wellness, to the current issues facing the black community. In this episode, we're

going to be discussing marriage and divorce. If you know anything about me, that you know that I had traveled this journey a couple of times, so I do have a little bit of experience in both areas to say the least. Joining me today are Melissa and Kevin Fredericks

from the own docuseries Black Love. Kevin and Melissa have been happily married for sixteen years and have a podcast called The Love Our Joining them is my friend and sponsors Sibillymani, who is currently single, and then, of course, the most important person in the room, my husband, Rodney, is joining us today for the very first time. So welcome everybody to positively GAM Thanks Gams, so excited. Melissa

and Kevin. For some of my listeners who may not be familiar with the show Black Love on Own, tell us a little bit about it. Oh yeah, Black Love is a showan owned and it kind of follows of a variety of black couples of various sectual preferences, ages, lengths of marriage, divorce not divorce, and they kind of just talk about their love story. I'm listen. I did season three, I believe yeah, season three, that is correct.

We were married fifteen years at the time, and I believe um when that aired, we're married sixteen years now. So it's a great experience to be included, great to watch all the stories and you know, just be a part of something beautiful. Yeah, I thought it was amazing. What what made you decide that you were willing to be on a show like that though? Because it is you are talking about your personal experiences. I would say, for me, I strongly believe that there's healing and help

and transparency. It's just something that I kind of lived my life on. And the reason why is because a lot of our story and some of the things we've been shared on black level, I felt like I was alone. Listen, I was out here struggling in marriage, struggling and motherhood,

struggling in womanhood. To be honest, like make it brought to Melissa's struggling period, and I was a mother and I was married, And it wasn't until I started to share some of my own struggles that I recognized there were so many people, so many women that were like me too, girl, me too? Girl, Oh girl, me too? And I was like, are you serious? Why is no one talking about this? Here? I am on this boat feeling like I'm alone and isolated, and there's so much shame,

feeling like you're the only one going through this. And then as soon as you speak up, there's so many

people on the boat with you. We just all silent and struggling, not even together really, And so I just felt like doing the show sharing, you know, the beauty of black love the beauty of our story, but also, you know, sharing some things that aren't so beautiful, but hoping that you know, we could shed light on other people's lives and say, hey, we went through that too and we were able to get on the other side. What about now, simple? Are you familiar with the show?

I am not. This is my first introduction to it. I find it to be very interesting, very therapeutic. The clips that I have had an opportunity to watch. Yeah, what about you, Kevin? Because I know Rodney you probably have not because I've asked you to watch it with me, and now we've watched it together a couple of times. Did you okay? All right? I don't. I don't. I don't remember that. No credit over here? How did you

feel about being on the show, Kevin? Because it just, to be honest, it just seems like more of a woman thing. So it's always good for me when I see black men engaged in this kind of conversation too, because I think it's really really important. Yeah, I think you know. Melissa and I have a podcast of our podcast where we talk about life, love, marriage, and pursuit of happiness, and we you know, we often are interested

in these types of stories outside of ours. Even before we were on the show, we watched the previous seasons. We just thought it was a great show. And you know, like many other black people, we like to see positive reflections of love. And I think one thing the show does, even you know, really well is some couples have traumatic stories, some are very positive, some have you know, went through difficulties.

Some even divorced after the show, and even on their social media they've even been um positive, even in that transition from married to co parenting or whatever. And I just think it's a I can't think of another show that had so much representation of love that wasn't like a TV sitcom, and even that's only usually one family. So Melissa and I we watched pretty much every episode together of the previous seasons. We love it. Yeah, I

really love it too. How did you guys meet? Depending on who you'll ask, you'll get a very different story. I'll tell you the truth, um, Melissa, Melissa. Melissa Kevin is a comedian too, so we gotta take that because he's been a lot of y'all list of lies. That's all she does when it's about this story. We met on the first day of eleventh grade and Miss Chapman's U S History class. Melissa was sitting there. It was a second to last role. She was in the backseat

because I know it's the truth. I know the truth. You couldn't have a lot of this clear. I came up and I sat probably about four desks in front of her. I went to her role. When I saw her beauty, I was attracted to it. I sat down. I was eyeing her, and another dude handed me a note and was like, Yo, could you hand this to that girl back there? And it was Melissa, And I was like, dang, he beat me to the punch, handed her a note. She opened it and looked at it,

closed it back and never looked at him. And I was like, oh, so you're telling me there's a chance. And I feel like I fell in love with her right then. Took me about six seven months to actually convince her to date me. I had all her home girls and all her classes petitioning for me, girls on the track team in every period. I had a whole school of black girls campaigning for me, and eventually this is the last part of the story, but it's also

the truth. Her cousin was the one that put me over the edge because she still was not trying to date me. So he's like, come on, couse cousin named Tony, come on, cuse, come on man, my boy, blah blah blah, just dating me. She grabbed my hand. She's like, okay, Tony, I will date him. Are you happy now? And through my hand And that was May thousand and we've been

together ever since I was twenty years ago. That right there is just really really amazing to me because if I'm not mistaken, you guys have been together and have never like dated or experienced any nothing. No breakups, no breakups, no separations, no time off, no PTO, no vacation, no mental health days, no hall passed straight married for well, dating into engagement into married. Since that day, she tried

to break over me in college. One time I was walking up to her dorm and she was talking bad about me to her roommate and the door was open, so I don't know if she was doing it on purpose, but I heard her and she was like, I was like, are you okay? She was like, well, I'm glad you're here. I'm sick of this and sick of that, you hanging out your homeboy, and I feel like you need a break. And I was like, okay, so what I'm gonna do is go back to my side of campus and I'll

see you tomorrow. And that was it. I went back to my room and the next day I acted like she never said that. She never mentioned it again, and we just kept on chucking. You know, Rodney, what do you say about that? Because I mean, like, Okay, I've been married four times. Rodney is my fourth husband, but there have been numerous relationships in between over the years.

So the fact that you guys have been married, never day to other people, never experienced other people in any way, is just like, I don't even know what to say to that. It's amazing. That's not the typical story, but it's an amazing story. I was gonna say. We are well aware more and more that this is not the norm, and we don't expect it to be the norm. It is very on the outskirts of normality. It exists mostly in Hollywood. People you know, fall in love in high

school and stay together. So we are well aware, and you know, when we do our podcast, we lead with that knowing that our situation is not the norm, you know. And when you say Hollywood, you mean Hollywood like on the movie screen. You know what I mean, like Hollywood for real? No, I mean like literally movies, not actual life. I don't think most people you know have a girlfriend that they meet in in eleventh grade and they stay

with him for twenty years without breaking up. Ever, what is one thing in marriage that singles need to know before they say I do? What would you say to that? CIVIL would say singles need to recognize that life is full of valleys, and without those valleys, there can be no hills, no mole hills, and no mountains, and so perseverance and communication are key. And that's my take from a look back. I would just say that make sure you're ready for the commitment because it's work, and it's

not it's not the Hollywood version. It's it's real. It's real work, and you're gonna have to learn some things about yourself that you didn't know existed, and you're gonna have to face some truths about yourself. And if you're ready to do that work, then I say go for it. But if you're not, then maybe just think about being in a relationship a little longer. Well, we were just in the kitchen. We were just in the kitchen talking to Will. That's our favorite spot and things that he said.

Uh huh, I've met him before. I just wanted to put that out there. I have met Will Smith. Yeah. Just I was gonna work it into the conversation only if you brought it up, and you did so that's hilarious, okay. Well, and what he said was marriage is a spiritual discipline to force us to heal our own wounds and learn how to love, right, he said, because most people don't actually just don't know anything about what love really is

and how to love. And when he said that, I had to really think about it, because I mean, you know, you really don't. So when you think about the did you all read the five love languages symbol? You read it, right, Rodney, you read it. So what would you say? Are is your love language? I'm gonna start with you, Rodney, What

is you or love language? Quality time? Quality time? For me, I think that words of fairly empty without demonstration, right, And that demonstration for me comes through time, spending time, sharing things together, doing things together. So yeah, for me, from that list, it would definitely be quality time. For me, it's physical touch. I'm all about the physical like that. That is really really important to me. What about you, civil I would say it's both of what you and

Rodney have. For me, it's quality time because you can give lip service all day long, but there's nothing like spending the intimate time together. Not necessarily physical, but that intimate connection with your partner. In addition, physical is very important to me. I can live with not having the gifts and you know, the other languages, but the physical and the quality time it's very important to me. Yeah,

I would. I would say the physical and intimacy. The intimacy that doesn't necessarily mean physical, right, but those two things are really important to me. What about you, Kevin and Melissa? So mine is quality time? Quality time gang over here and I would say that for me. It's so funny. We were just on some other show the other day and we were kind of going through our definition of love and one of the hosts said this to me, and I was like, that's true for me,

and I didn't realize it. I define love in terms of safety. So if I feel comfortable and safe with you, to give me or to give you like my heart, then that's when I that's love to me. And the only way that I get there, I realized for me is through quality time and specifically, like let's talk. Let's have a conversation. Tell me about your fears, tell me about your dreams, tell me about what you're afraid of, what your ultimate goals are, Like, let's sit and talk

all the deep down dirty stuff. Let's have this conversation. And in that you're building trust, you're building rapport, you're building all of those things that helped me. That are my definitions of love and so you. For me, it's far and above, I mean just far and away quality time. The second one would be acts of service, which I feel like that's a very seasonal type of situation for me. I feel like when my kids were young, that's always

very important, Like helped me around this house. You don't see these dishes, you don't see it as flow. You don't want to pick up a room, you won't do nothing. As I've gotten older and my kids have gotten older, the gap between At one time they were very neck and neck, but as my kids have gotten older, the gap between those two have definitely expanded. So it's far and away. Yeah, quality time. For me, it's physical touch and words of affirmation. I feel like they're very close

to each other. I need to be hugged, love kissed, hold me, touch my hand, put your foot on me, let me feel your cold tosies, like you know, let's be close. You know, I was all And that's not even just with Melissa's with my children as well. I'm the very affectionate person hugs and kisses, you know. Well with one of my sons. The other ones, his love language is not physical touch, so we we don't do that with him. Uh. But the words of affirmation, I um,

I need to be verbally hugged, so to speak. Uh. Otherwise I feel like, you know, God, I don't know. I feel unloved, especially if I'm working on something that is very difficult for me, you know, like you know. One of the things Melissa and I've realized, the the benefit of being together for a long time is you know each other very well. The drawback is that when you're together for twenty years, you really, you know, imagine the person you were when you were sixteen and the

person you were at thirty six. They're very different people, you know. But We've had to go through all those changes together. So that requires is loving a person differently as they go through those changes. In Melissa's case, you know, no kids to one kid to two kids, to working in Corporate America to quitting Corporate America, her parents divorced. All of those instances had changes in her personality and I had to love her through those and I have

to change for her as well. And when I'm doing something that's very difficult for me, if you acknowledge that and then it's more it's easier for me to continue to do that. So for the last two years or so, I've been working on being more vulnerable, uh, fighting the way I grew up, which men are strong and we don't show weakness and we don't do that and you and you don't break. And then Melissa was like, I need you to break. I need you. I need to see some fear in you. And I was like, I

don't know how to show that. I didn't know how to show her that, literally because I didn't know how to show it to myself. So Agam, you were saying a little bit earlier about love is a spiritual um discipline. I think that's the phase we're in. So much of what we're doing now is the self work to combat

our childhood and things like that. And we realize how if you don't do that self work, it shows up as relationship problems in your marriage if left unchecked, and it's really hard to come to combat those deepest, darkest parts of you. Uh. And they really have nothing to do with your spouse in that sense. It is completely you know. I mean, they do in the sense that, unchecked it would affect your relationship, but it's not your your spouse's fault or responsibility to do that, so, you know.

And listening to you guys talk about the length of time that you all have have been together, I realized that Rodney and I have known each other for a really, really long time, because this is actually the second go round for us. We dated years ago and then broke up and I married somebody else, and that I married somebody else twice. Why didn't you really think about that? Was like, hold on, let me know what it one or two? I can't remember. I can't just just once,

just once, just once. I mean, I didn't know the marriages and breakups and the folks in between have gotten the little uh muddled. We've known each other for a

really long time. But when you were talking about, you know, the intimacy and being able to share with one another and and be completely comfortable and honest with one another, that is one of the most important things to me in the relationship that I have with you right now, babe, because I feel like that was one thing that I didn't have that was so important and all of my

other marriages. So Rannie and I dated and then I don't know how much you guys know about me, but thirty something years ah, yeah, and I had well, we both had some you know, we both had problems with addiction, and my inability to get my ship together is one of the reasons that led us to to break up.

And it's really kind of interfered with that relationship and my second marriage because of drug addiction, so you know, and thinking about all that and recognizing that back then, like now we've come to back together and we are totally different people, thank God. And people think about, well, you know, do you feel like you missed time being together, like what would have been? Do you wish that you hadn't we couldn't have been together back then? It wouldn't

have been successful, right, not at all. So we met. I was in recovery and she wasn't so well. I was trying to get there, but that's a that's a recipe for disaster already from the onset, so it was destined to fail. But we tried. You know, we we cared about each other, and I cared about her struggle, and I really didn't know at first, you know, she hit it from me real well. But then when it became obvious, I tried to help her in a struggle.

But yeah, it just it just didn't work. And I was starting to feel like it was wearing on my own sobriety, so we had to we had to move on. But when we came came back together some thirty years later, she was a totally different person and I was too. I mean, the people with that we were couldn't have

sustained the relationship at that point anyway. So it was good that we came back together and it was like I was meeting her for the first time, but she was the person that I believe she could be thirty years ago, which was which was amazing to me. And you know, it was just my trials and tribulations had made me someone different too, so it was like we were two totally different people by that time, and it was,

it was, it was. It worked out really well for us, and even to yeah, even to this day, were still learning new things about each other, were still growing in the relationship some eight nine years later, and you know that's on a daily basis for us. We still talk about our stuff on a regular basis, and and that helps us to like stay fresh and and to stay grounded in the relationship. I've been married like four times. Rodney has never been married, never been married. I'm sixty

four years old. We got married when I was sixty mm hmmm, yeah, so my parents were together for sixty something years. But it was they argued, and the marriage wasn't really what I considered loving. So I really didn't have a great administration of what marriage was. And then most of the people that I talked to that we're married weren't really happy. So I had a very distorted concept and image of marriage. So I I didn't see that for me, and I was a bit of a

selfish guy. I wanted to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. And you did that for many many I did that for many many years. Yes, and you had a good old time and it worked for me. You know, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't want to drag people into my stuff and have them, you know, and be committed to someone that I wasn't really ready to honor. Right. I didn't give you props for that, But though, babe, I give you props that you you waited so long and you didn't just get

married because it was the thing to do. Yeah, it was the thing to do. Yeah. Now simple as my sponsor and my my good, good, good, good good girlfriend. So you know, you and I what we hear from Melissa and Kevin that that has not been our story at all. So talk to me about you because you're actually Muslim and you've been married. Now, you said you were married three and a half times. What does that mean? But really I've been married thirty five years, just to

four different people. Okay. So you know when I talked about being married three and a half times, I have my first marriage, which was actually in active addiction, and I entered that marriage looking for an escape from the streets, only to be driven back out to the streets because of the domestic violence that was involved in that marriage. And as a thought of that, that is when I decided that my life needed to change and I wanted to embark on a journey of recovery, recovery from substance use.

And that was over thirty one years ago. And so once I got clean. See, I like what Kevin said about how enduring a marriage and staying and it makes you face some of your own issues. They have nothing to do with your partner. Your own childhood issues have nothing to do with your partner. And my childhood issue that drove me into marriage was abandonment, and I went

there looking for security. So once I got clean, and that is at the same time that I embraced this lamb, I got married, you know, and I say it was a love marriage. It met most of my needs most of the time until it didn't. But there are some other issues that come along with abandonment, such as insecurity

and living with a whole lot of fear. So I didn't have the the example in my life in childhood or even growing up, of couples staying together and weathering the storms, you know, going through those valleys and achieving and reaching those mountaintops. I didn't have that. So the minute something went wrong and it went wrong and real wrong, I made a decision to get out. And so that is what I did. But going back to that childhood issue of abandonment, I'm like, oh, I ain't gonna be

no hole. I ain't gonna be out here doing all this stuff. Let me find me a boot. And I actually sat back after doing a short period of healing from that second marriage, and I picked someone out of the crowd. I said, you know what, he's nice, he's responsible, he's attentive. I'm going to marry him. And it happened

just like that. And that is the half marriage. And it became a half marriage because he was very in love with me, passionately in love with me, provided all the gifts all the time, but I was not passionately in love with him. And after about eight months I had to make a very very hard decision to own my own feelings. Because one of the things that we do in the recovery processes we get in touch with ourselves, and recovery is universal, it doesn't even it's not limited

to substance use. And I prayed about it. I talked with my emam, I engaged my religious community because we were both members there, and I would be doing him I felt, this is what I felt, I would be doing him a disservice to stay married to him, because he was such a great person and he deserved so much more. And it was one of the hardest things that I had to do. I had to think about, what are people going to say about me? We had this beautiful wedding, and now eight months later, you're gonna

get out of it. You're gonna break the heart of one of the nicest guys you could meet. But it was what I had to do, right. You know what, I can relate to that civil too, because I felt like that to a certain extent with my third marriage. With the third marriage, we were together for the longest, over twenty years, but I just felt like he deserved to be loved the way he wanted to be loved. But so did I. You know what I mean. I deserve to be loved the way I needed to be loved.

I never doubted that he loved me. He just didn't love me the way I needed to be loved. And after spending all that time with him and wanting to you know, wanting things to work out. You just get to the point where for me, I I just recognized that I had more years behind me than I did in front of me, and I needed to be happy. I just wasn't willing to sacrifice my own happiness, you know, anymore. And so that that's what led me to that that divorce after so many years, and I mean I had to.

I you know, I was concerned about what other people would think, and you know, I was concerned about him. I knew that it wasn't what he really wanted, and I understood what that felt like. I understood what that felt like to not to want our marriage, to want to to last, and have the other person not really be interested in and given it a shot. So but anyway, go ahead, okay. And so then I entered my fourth marriage.

I was very much in love with my husband. However, in looking at myself, because you know, I'm the person that was in all these marriages, I'm the one that's growing through them because I really do believe in marriage, and I believe that there are some things that you will never experience unless you are in a married relationship. You kind of you get to know yourself in a

way that you would never know yourself. Based on my spiritual belief and my religious belief, I just believe that God puts some things in marriages that you cannot reach in any other type of relationship in your life. There is a depth of knowing that comes with a good marriage. There is a depth of loving that you. It surpasses any other kind of love that that you could experience with your children, your parents, are the family members, other friends.

There's something about that divine connection that's really an interesting point because I wanna I want to ask you, Rodney, how you feel about that, because well, I'm just curious, after all the years that you went without marrying and not making marriage a priority, what was it that made you decide that you wanted to get married, Because you kind of made that pretty clear when we got together

that marriage was something that you wanted. Yeah, I mean at this point in my life, I wanted something more more stable and more long, you know, with some longevity to it. You know, like civil was saying that when you're not married, the commitment is here. Right when you're married, that commitment I can't. I gotta use this hand too, So it's I remember, the audience can't see you, babe,

The audience can't see you. So the commitment level isn't what it is when you're when you're in a marriage like it's I can't think of much that I wouldn't do to try to preserve this. But when you're in a relationship, just a typical relationship, and you wake up one day and feel like this isn't working for you, you can just make a decision to get out of it and just say, you know what, it's a conversation.

It's not even I mean, people are going to be hurt on both sides, but it's but you know, in this it asked of me to do work that I'm willing to do that. There's not much that I can't think of that I wouldn't be willing to do to preserve this marriage and and in relationships, you know, and prior to this, I never I never felt like that. I mean, I would do work to a point, but if it got to be look, this is you know,

this is getting to be a lot too much. Because you didn't even you didn't even live with anybody, did you that, Kevin? Did you? You and Melissa lived together before you got Oh no, Dan were saved. You know we did. That was the devil. So we wouldn't do none of that shocking up. You know we did. This was this was holy land a man, we was, We was saved. Sell a bit. You know. I had my own apartment. Melissa actually has never lived alone. I don't

think Melissa never lived alone. She moved from her parents house. She had roommates in her first three years of college, and then she moved in with me. I had my own apartment for about a year maybe year and a half, uh, prior to us being married. But we never lived together. That was absolutely forbidden. You know. We we did spend the night about three or four times, and I hope Melissa mom ain't listening to that, but you know, we would still say we did. We spend about four times.

But other than that, other than that, we we didn't shock up. Hey man, we we we were separate. I just really find that interesting, Rodney, did you never even look because that is even a level of commitment you live with zena. But well, I lived with a couple of people and it wasn't long. It was probably like a year and a half for each person. Yeah, yeah, but that you were Yeah, you were teenage, were not teenage, had to high school. We were in out twenties. Yeah,

we went out twenties. But yeah, I just I just, I don't know. For some reason, having that experience earlier, I just felt like I did better when I was by myself. And that early experience, I'll tell you what happened that kind of really put me in that in that stage. In that point, the apartment was in her name, and we had we had a you know where I'm getting ready to go with this Kevin. So mad day happened. And when mad Day came, you know, she asked me to leave, and I had to leave. You know, I

was asked you to leave. She told you to get the funk out, and I'm I'm twenty one years old, so I don't have luggage. So I had those green trash bags. I had the green trash bags going down the street, put them in my car. And that was an experience I did not ever want to have again. Ronnie. It's so interesting you we call this your your marriage story.

There's your finance story, your marriage story, and that's like how what happened early in your life that helped frame how you see things and your parents marriage story, like you're seeing a long term marriage that wasn't healthy. Your mindset, this is bad. I don't want that. I think that's uh, you know, there's a and this goes back to the self work. Your your money story. Melissa saw her dad uh paying bills one day and being frustrated and and or a couple of times, and in her mind builds

equal stress. Even though now in our life we don't have any you know, money problems, in her mind, she's always kind of like, who, you know, what's coming around the corner, because that she connects with that money story and even the living with that person when you were young and having that bad experience. There's there's so much of that in our lives that we take as truth and ingraining. We don't think that it can ever not

be that way. And that's why that self work is important because now you realize, well, that was just one time when I was young, and I got you know, like the next person might not even treated me this way, or I would have had a nice luggage. So we if I'm walking down the street, I could roll it and I don't have to carry it. You know, but we we take those trash bag stories into our next relationship. Oh yeah, literally and figuratively, you're like that, I won't

even give you, you know. We so the next person, we're like, I won't even give you a chance to do that because I won't move in with you, and like, but it could have been in your name and you would die. Nope, nope. But we protect ourselves that way from the potential of further harm. But in a lot of times, when we protect ourselves, we also prevent ourselves from feeling love fully because we have our garden in so many different ways. Which is the difference between boundaries

and walls. So boundaries there's a door, walls there's no door, and a lot of times and protecting ourselves, we isolate ourselves in walls. That was really good. That's what I'm here for. That's a good one, Melissa. That that's a great visual because you could have a door there and then you know what, I'm gonna just go ahead and

break this up. And now you know, you know, you've you've you've isolated yourself and your feelings from receiving love that could have been there, and I potentially did that. I'm not going to say that that wasn't, you know, a possibility at some point in my life before I was sixty m What opened you guys up to each other? Um to try and again? Yeah, years later, I think

it's really beautiful and impressive. But what opened you up, Rodney to to the possibility of love and marriage after deciding it wasn't for you For so long, I felt like there was always some unfinished business with me and her. So when we started talking again, it was the connection just came back like like it was yesterday. And I hadn't seen her in many years, but the connection came

back like it was yesterday. And then it just kept getting better and better and better, and our communication was off the chain, so it was relatively easy for me at that point. I I knew I wanted to get married. I didn't want to be the you know, not that I wear gold chains, but I didn't want to be the old guy in the club with the gold chain on.

I can say I witnessed that I'll never forget when gam moved back to Baltimore and we were out for breakfast and oh my god, you came into the restaurant and she got all nervous and ginny, and I'm like, damn it, it's look it was like it never left. It never left. Yeah, I witnessed that, but we weren't. We weren't seeing each other then. Yeah, that was just we ran into each other. But even just running into you, like I kind of was all over you at gave you a great big old hug and got a google eyed.

You came and sat at the table with us for a few minutes, and then you left, and I was no more good after that. I was like, okay, Civil, Civil wasn't as impressed, though Civil was like, okay, we can ready to do something. We were actually supposed to be doing some step work. I think I think we were supposed to be doing some step work and I couldn't. I couldn't concentrate a like okay, you gotta go. We

get ready to do something. But they happened a couple of times like we kind of ran into each other that like at meetings and stuff like that. But you know, yeah, so Kevin, to answer you a question, it was I guess it was something that never left. And then seeing her and talking to her again and seeing you know, where she had evolved to and just knowing, you know, the work that I had done and where I had

evolved too. It was it was almost like when those two energies came together, it was it was just unbelievable. One of the things that I was going to say about marriage, I think dam asked the question earlier, is the advice that you would give a single person is that, and you kind of both just alluded to and just your own story, is that you have to have a very strong sense of self in order for a we

to work. And I think a lot of times, um singul or not, we have this very fantasized view of what marriage is that you can go in with all of these broken pieces or these pieces of yourself that you're not even familiar with, you can't even call or name, and then you go into this relationship where this person wants to get to know you and you don't know you. Hello,

is some body make it makes sense? And so the beautiful thing, even in hearing your story and going through all going through life, is that you learn about you and that's part of the journey of marriage. And then once you have a very strong sense of self, it's so much easier to bond your life with someone because you're very clear on I think Sybil was saying, this

is how I need to be loved. Man, Listen, this is these are my dudes, these are my do not okay, And it's very very clear for you and you go into even in the dating phase, you'll know, off jump, this ain't gonna work. I'm gonna just let you know off jump, the way I operate, it's not gonna work with your personality. That doesn't work without that very strong

centered sense of self. And then once you get into the relationship or you get into marriage, the other thing that holds, that keeps the longevity is there is just a certain conviction that is unexplained that comes with the vows and a ring of saying I do. There is just a conviction there that is not that cannot be transferred to any relationship that doesn't have that ring and that documentation. I know a lot of times people it's just a piece of paper, but it's not though. But

it's not though. It's just something about it that again, it just brings a level of commitment and conviction that's just not easily explained. I even think in today's world there's a very I don't know. We always think of, you know, the marriage isn't taking a serious marriage isn't taken a serious and I almost, I don't know, I'm

almost would argue the opposite. I'm kind of going through these thoughts right now as I'm talking, so I might change my mind as I'm talking, Okay, that I think we put marriage to on such a high esteem that when it's not right, we'd rather get out of it. And I think that's hey, I honestly do. I think that's okay. I think we have to go into marriage again with that song sense of self and what we want out of it, and then maybe you don't have

the divorce later on. But at the end of the day, if you're saying I know and I respect the sanctity of marriage, and I understand that it could be something so beautiful and something that allows me to show up as a better and different person than I was before, then it's okay. And recognizing this ain't the one. I don't know where this went left and where we went a ride, but for the betterment of you and for the betterment of me, we can't. We can no longer

be together. And I think that's Okay. I have the analogy in my mind of like you go to a restaurant, you ask the waitress or waiter what's what's good here, and a lot of times they're like, well, what do you like? What don't you like? Do you? So? If you don't like spicy food, that spicy dish might be great to someone who likes spicy food, but if you know, hey man, it doesn't matter how good it is. I

don't like spicy food. I'm And that's kind of what you were saying, Rodney, much like the versions of you got you and Gam early you're like, hey man, I don't like this spicy food, and gam and spicy food right now? You know so uh, But it doesn't mean there's something wrong with each person. Like I avocados something some people just texture wise can't get with. Nothing wrong

with avocados. And I think that's kind of how you should date if you're single, Like you need to know how, Like the most important thing is how I like to be loved, to be able to communicate that, and then can that person love you in that way? If that person cannot give you words of affirmation, then like if Melissa couldn't give that to me, I'm gonna have a hard time loving her or I'm gonna have a hard time being with her, because this is how I receive love.

And if you can't speak that language to me, then you can buy me gifts every single day, but that doesn't make me feel loved. You're gonna be like, should I do this, this, that, and that? You know, and you don't feel loved, Like it's the last thing to say. Melissa's love language is not gifts, but she appreciates them.

So I gave her, you know, some roses last week, and I bought her some Ivy park too, but that was just a gesture, yeah, you know, because she had mentioned and I felt so good game because I had already ordered it for her and she didn't know. She was like, man, it was sold out, and I was like, little, do you know, it's already on the way. But to me, early in our marriage, I used to get frustrated when I gave her a gift and she didn't jump for joy and show me love. But that's before I knew

that's not her love language. Now I can just yeah, now I can just give her a gift as a kind gesture and not expect her to be jumping for joy because I know she appreciates that, but it's not how she feels love. I gotta stay up till two o'clock in the morning talking to you know, eep deep parts of our soul and not being sleepy, and that will make her feel love more than the Ivy Park And it's cheaper. I mean park was you know. I

was like dog Beyonce. So I had my home girl buy it from me gamm and I was like, yeah, just get her like seven eight things. And she got the bill. I say, girl, seven or eight things. She was like, that was seven or eight things. I was like, alee, Jesus, this Ivy Park place. So, so what I'm hearing from you guys, even though you have managed to stay together all these years, you understand when people do divorce. So, Simbil, how how do you feel about the fact that you've

been through a series of divorces? Because I don't feel any kind of way about myself about it, But let me just be clear about that. I'm I'm good because Jada asked me, like when Rodney and I decided to get married, she was like, why why are you getting married again? Like you're not gonna have kids, Like, what is what is the draw? I don't get it. You've been divorced three times? Why not just enjoy each other?

But I have to agree with with Melissa on this that there's something and and Rodney had said it to me too. There's some think about the level of commitment that you have when you're in a marriage that doesn't exist if you're just living together and or just dating. You know, when things get tough, you just you can easily get going and get gone, And it's not that easy. And so that willingness to commit to me and to us and to the relationship and the marriage was really

really important to me. And quite frankly, I like being married. I enjoyed that relationship. I enjoyed that partnership because I feel like that's what we have. We have a partnership. Do you feel like do so, let me ask the divorces a question. Do you think that because having being in this marriage has taught me, I feel like there's not much I wouldn't do to preserve it. So do

you feel like getting a divorce? It's more about an expectation of other people that you came into the marriage with or an expectation of yourself, like what do you feel like happens? And I know all experiences are different, so what do you what do you feel like happens in a divorce to make that to make you finally just go ahead and get well, my answer is quick and easy, So you go ahead, Simbil, go ahead and

answer that well, Rodney. For me personally, out of the marriages that I had, there was only one that looking back, that I probably would have stayed in had I had the information to support me in that. And my faith walk divorce is frowned upon, however it is allowed in certain situations. And I think that for me, I've grown through every marriage and every divorce to just get a better understand ending of who I am. And so I

think there's uh perseverance, very high level of commitment. And for me, the expectation was not so much on the other person as much as it was on myself. But I love the sharing that Melissa gave when she talked about how important it is to know who you are before you enter a commitment you know, with someone else, and gam and and answer to your question about being divorced, you know, I've learned so much through my marriages. I don't feel any kind of way about having been married

and divorced. I actually filed for all four divorces, two of which we filed together at the courthouse, in a very you know, very friendly type manner, and you know, still have good relationships today. So I don't feel any kind of way. However, the person that I am today, given the opportunity to connect with that right person, um more equipped to stay in a marriage than I was before. So you know, I don't feel any kind of way. I think oftentimes divorces who's gonna win, and there is

no winner. There is no winner really in divorce because Rodney, you yourself mentioned at one point in the dialogue that in situations where you part you know, both parties experienced some type of hurt. Yeah. Absolutely. I think the thing that really worked for us is that coming into the relationship, I didn't really need anything from her and she didn't need anything for me from me, like we were already who we were, you know. So it's just a matter

of acceptance, and you know I wasn't. I didn't have any expectations in terms of I need you to do this or you need me to do that, and so it made it a lot easier just to focus on the relationship itself because there was no there was no other expectations. And for me, well, the first time I got divorced from I was so young, you know, I was like seventeen when I got married to Jada's dad,

So like that obviously wasn't gonna work. And the second time, I think, you know, once again, my addiction was at the root of it, and the other party, just my husband at the time, just wasn't interested in doing any work. I feel like if we had been able to to, if he had agreed to go to counseling with me, that that probably would have led me into the path of recovery, and we still may not have been together. I can almost guarantee we would not have been together anyway.

So but at the end of the day, you know, I wasn't going to force anybody to be in a relationship with me that didn't want to be right. And then the third time, it was just recognizing that even through all the years that we have been together, all the therapy, the individual therapy, the marriage counseling, you know, all of it that you know we were just growing in different directions, and I just I felt like, I truly felt like I had done everything that I could

possibly do to try to keep the relationship together. But when people just aren't willing to are comfortable where they are and and don't want to make any kind of adjustment, then you know, I had to put my own happiness first. And so I feel like I did as much work as I as I could to keep that that that relationship together. Well, and you're gonna say something, Melissa, Oh, I was gonna say you were clean. You said during

your third marriage. Yes, yes, yeah, I was clean and that was yeah, and he was all very much a part of that. That my third husband, he you know, he was with me from the very beginning on through of that. And so I have what now, thirty years clean. But one thing that I want to talk about just this, you know, this idea of this getting married so young and like we have this expectation in the United States.

It's just such a fairy tale, right, and people just I feel like still like get out of school and want to get married and have kids, and you know, it's this whole living this fairy tale that I just feel like it's very very hard to to live up to and maintain, and the idea, including monogamy, it's just so challenge I feel. And Sybil, your daughter just got married pretty pretty young. What is your feeling about that? Because they're they're together, they're doing great, she's getting ready

to have another baby. How did you feel when she when she decided to get married as young as she did, she was what she was want to one And a lot of people don't wouldn't think that that's young. They're like, well, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to get married and have kids. Yeah, I'll tell you. They have been married for seven years now. And I remember when she told me, well, actually he told me they were

going to get married. He asked for my blessings prior to asking her, And I want to tell you, I was very nervous. I was very nervous because I was bringing my own biases to the table and you and now at seven years, you know, there are times when I may still be a little nervous. And getting married so early, they have so many life experiences to go through. It is scary. However, when they got married, his dad

and the tradition and culture that they come from. Said to me that they we believe in marriage, and we are on the side of marriage versus airing on the side of divorce. And so whenever difficulties or challenges come up as a family, we will support them and and and you know, God willing, they will weather through that. And in those seven years, the families have built relationships. You know, I'm single, his parents they come visit me, they bring gifts, you know, we do all kinds of

things together to preserve the family unit. And and that in turn helps to support their marriage. I think that's rare. You know. However, growing up and then having to have to go through some life challenges, I'm better equipped to support her to to navigate her way through that, whereas I I didn't really have that, you know. So I don't know. They got married young. They support and motivate one another to excellence. They're about to have their third child.

They don't lean on anyone, they don't take hand outs. They fight through their own storms, you know. And so it's a little scary sometimes because you know, I've been out there, I had life experiences. I know what can happen. You know, I know what I couldn't weather, and so we just try to look for the greater good in that because challenges are going to come. I just that always just worries me though, people just getting married so young.

It just seems like because we have this thing where we think that your partner is supposed to be your everything, its supposed to be your best friend, your lover, your confidant, eat everything. It's like, oh my god, that is so much to ask of one person. And so you know,

it's really unfair to ask that of one person. Whereas back in the day and the tradition that we all come from, there was the community, there was the village, there was the water hole, there were the women, you know, and so it's important and this is what we try to instill in them, that they each give each other a safe place to come back to, but we empower and motivate them to then in turn go out and explore, which achieve your own goals. You know. So they're both educated.

You know, she has her circle of friends that don't include him. They have friends that they have together and vice versa, you know. So it's this whole society that we're living in today that wants you to put everything into your single partner, and it is unbearable. It really is unbearable. Yeah, how do you feel like that? Baby? Do you feel like I'm alive? You can be. Yeah,

you certainly can be. But I think the thing, the thing that really helped us is we we became each other's best friend before we even thought about getting married at anything. Like, she became my best friend, Like I would rather be with her and hang out and do stuff than than to be with any of my male friends, because we have a good time to do. We really enjoy each other's So we became each other's best friend, which made the rest of it relatively easy. And and

that's still the case to day. But you can be you can't be a bit bunchet times like yesterday and the day before that. And no, I'm just kidding, but listen, did you want to say something? I was gonna say that. Kevin and I got married at one as well, so we were really young. We had our oldest son by the time we were twenty three, and our youngest by

the time. We were so really, really really young. I don't know that I'm anti married young as much as I am pro make sure you go to marriage counseling, make sure you read all the books, make sure you understand why you're getting married, make sure you have again a strong sense of self. I think those are the things because regardless of whether you get married really young or even later in life, you're coming into any scenario with something. When you're younger, maybe you don't have as

much something. You just have life from you know, your childhood. When you're older, you got life life know, so you're gonna come in with something and being able to work through those things together, I think is the most important thing. So you don't end up as you were saying, we can depend on There's like I have so many thoughts to there's two things that can happen. You can lean on someone so much where they they crumble under the stress and strain of trying to meet and be your everything.

That's simply not healthy. But you don't want to also get too far where your lives are running parallel and there's no intersection because marriage is at the intersection, relationship is at the intersection, and trying to find that balance younger old can be very difficult. I got friends, I got this, I got that. You know, the relationship is gonna be strong, strong, get forty five, you know what

I mean. But then when you're young, you run the risk of being so intertwined that you lose your sense of self. So I think these problems can exist regardless. It's a matter Okay, this is what I'm feeling. Okay, this is what's going on with me, this is what I need right now in this space in my life. How do I articulate those things to my husband because or your wife, whoever, your spouse, because communication problems are

prevalent in relationships regardless. And so it's all about on my Instagram at one time, I posted this emotions wheel, and we have like these primary emotions that were readily able to articulate. I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm happy, But then angry can actually branch out to I'm actually feeling embarrassed, I'm actually feeling um humiliated, I'm actually feeling shameful. Being able to articulate those things is actually more important than just angry, because for a long time, Kevin would be like,

my wife just wakes up with attitude. I don't know why she just went to bed and woke up, And now she has an attitude and in reality, maybe I'm feeling triggered. In reality, maybe I'm feeling isolated, or I'm feeling lonely, and I don't know how to say I'm feeling really lonely, and I feel like I need to have a communication with you and we need to talk and we need to chat and I need to feel that quality time with you. I don't know how to say that. I don't have those words. This is how

she says it, yours on your phone. Even though she has her phone in her hand, she put it down point seven seconds before she'd be like, all you do is be on your phone. Girl, were doing the same thing. I know, but I'm done now. So I need your attention. This is me, this is my truth, and so being able to those are the life skills that I feel like you need no matter what. And I think we're not often to the point earlier, we're not often equipped

with those life skills. And partly because they weren't, they weren't demonstrated to us. My parents didn't. They went to bed angry, they went to bed, said, they went to bed unresolved. They went like I didn't see them have there's nothing wrong with arguments. It's a matter of how you do them. And I didn't see healthy to arguments in my family. So I don't talk to me. I'm going to be Tomorrow we'll think about what we could do. Well, that's not healthy either. Girl. You're gonna have to make

a decision now, talk about and get it through. And so those are the skills that I think we need, you know, no matter what I think, it's the point I was trying to say, trying to said a whole lot, but you get what I'm trying to set and also what Melissa and I have come up with this now I think, like for Quarantine, for example, Uh, Quarantine put a lot of couples under stress and strain because it was a very new experience to be with someone twenty four hours a day, like in any marriage, it's rare

that you're you know, like Melissa went to work, I went to work, kids went to school, and that time where she was getting her hair done, Neil's done, or just driving our son of soccer practice. There was so much alone time that was kind of like built into your everyday life. Uh. Then Quarantine, you know, we we like, oh we should get to spend every second very day. We was, you know, trying to y'all can't see, but Melissa's got right up under me, and I was like,

I need my space. But it was hard to say, you know, And I was a touring comedian, so I would I travel all across the country, spend the night in hotels for the weekend, enjoy plenty of alone time. And she would do the same from home. So you never actually had to say I need some space in our relationship. Now, you know, in March became April and April became May, and I'm like, I want to be in my room by myself, without you for for many hours. And there's nothing wrong with you. I just want to

be alone. But that came across as you don't love me, you don't want to be up on me. All you do is being up in this room until we realized, oh wow, we haven't had any of our time alone that you need to, you know, to feel love again too. You know you need a different You know, you don't eat your same your favorite food every day for every meal.

It will not it won't be good anymore. So now we know, like, hey, and even if it's just you know, in the morning, I go for a walk for an hour and a half, go hiking, and now she has an hour and a half a loon. I have an hour and a half a loon. And if we don't

have nothing else but that time, that is valuable. But a lot of that is understanding what you want to convey and then conveying that clearly without being you know, ruded, disrespectful, and just say hey, I just need some time by myself, you know, so that I can love you better when we come together, as opposed to here you go again, breathe in my area. You always breathe in an area in my room. Breathe air in a different space. That's a good point. So what are you looking for as

we as we start to wind down? What what are you looking forward to as once the pandemic is over? I would say another year and a half. Like I'm saying, what are you looking forward to, babe? As far as you and I are concerned, just getting back to what our normal was. But I have to say, I think the pandemic and all of this negatives, there's been some positives too, Yeah, I mean it. It certainly makes you

take a look at yourself. In the relationship, how you're relating to people in general, and have a great appreciation for those for those people around you and your family and your loved ones, and just communicate differently. I think, speaking of communication, that happens to be one of my really real an area for me, a real like I I don't communicate well, like I get I get angry, and I cut you out. You know what, the gam even the ability to say that and know that is helpful.

You're like, you know what, Hey, I'm gonna be pissed. I'm gonna cust you out just a little bit. But after I get that off, we could talk about it. I think you're exaggerating. You don't really cuss people out, but you you curse you, You use curse words. She uses curse words in her communication, but it's not like one after another repeatedly. It's just you can tell she's angry because she starts to use curse words, and I'm like,

you're cursing. I'm not cursing at you. So we can't communicate right now until you yeah, because I'm not a person who wants to be cursed at. I'm not gonna allow people to treat me any type of way. I deserve better than that, so and I'm not going to do that to you. So we need to just put

this on ice right now. But to get back to your question about the pandemic, Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting back to our normal, but I think that, you know, again, in the pandemic, there's a lot there's a lot of I noticed a lot of distractions that happened in our quote unquote normal. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a

lot of distractions that happened. Like so we don't we don't really and to act the way we do now because if I don't want to be bothered, I'll go to the movies, I'll go shopping, you know, and you'll do the same. And we all have the ability to

do all these other things. But I'm just saying we we we have the ability to do all these things that separate us from the truth, and and the pandemic has caused us to look at the truth, you know, and the way we relate to other people, even in ourselves, like you know, because we we're She's on one coach right now and I'm on the other a lot of times, and I'm spending time by myself that I really don't want to and I'm recognizing while when I was younger,

I was really good at being by myself, and I'm not as good at it anymore. And that's the truth that I'm realizing about myself. And then I, you know, we have those conversations. So it's just it's just those types of things. But the answer to your question is getting back a while normal, but also incorporating the things

that I've learned from the pandemic to hopefully make things better. Yeah. Yeah, So when we do get back to normal, we're taking some of the things that the good things that we've learned or and and just relating to one another better. But I do know that that is one of my areas that is very, very challenging for me. I probably need professional help. What about you for me? I I I don't want to say I'm thankful for the pandemic, but because of how much devastation and you know, life loss.

But the disruption in our cycle of just going I don't say we just had our routine school, soccer, travel, this podcast, blah blah blah um. The disruption of the cycle caused us to grow together in a new way, and we had to learn some new things about each other. Um. I would like when we can travel freely, just to be able to date like we used to, to go to whatever restaurant we want to, to be able to travel like those are something I love to travel with

my wife. We and I'm so thankful that man being able to travel with someone who travels like you do, and it's interested in this stuff you're interested in who I thank god Melissa and I love to experience new things together. So um, and that's something we've missed greatly uh this year. But I'm grateful for the growth that we've had as a result of the pandemic. But then I'd be grateful to be firing first class again to Amsterdam or something like that. I I want to taste

wine from another country in another country. I have a totally different question for you, because the four of us are married, and right now you are not. Are you interested in getting married again? I am? Actually I am interested in getting married again to the right person because

I thrive on that partnering relationship. That's been one of the biggest challenges for me during the pandemic is being in a big house by myself, and what it has caused me to do is to strengthen relationships in other areas, such as relationships with my children and my grandchildren, because prior to COVID, I had such an engaging social life which I'm a face to face person. I want to see you, I don't want to zoom you, I don't want to talk on the phone. And so that part

of my life has just been severed temporarily. And so yes, I would look forward to getting married again because, as I said, it shows me a piece of me that I can't see in any other way. So well, you know said, well, you know, I have some feelings about that. I have some feelings that you're being very resistant to the online dating situation, and I feel like it's something that, regardless of the pandemic, that you may need to open your mind and heart to Mama. I think I might

need a coach for that. I think I might need a coach, you know, because I'm so skeptical, you know, and I'm very particular, and I don't engage in a lot of small talk. I like to get straight to the chase, you know, so that I can then go out and do what I have to do, and so I just need some help in that area. So if you have help for me, I'm open what you got to say with Listen when you're waving your hand and listen what you got to say. I am to say. I don't like small chat or small talk at all.

Let's sit down and talk talk like, let's let's do the things. And I'm just saying I don't know that. I actually maybe I am a anti text or I think I am a anti text. I think I prefer like, let's sit out and talk and like get to know each other for real, for real, Melissa love to just talk until the middle of the night with people. I be sleepy. I want to speak your love language. I just want to speak it at three pm, not not two am. I'm just saying that. I think I'm simpl

I think we are the same. All right, Well, do you guys have any dating advice? Let me ask you, Rodney, did you have any dating advice for for civil because you were you were single for an awful long time, Daddy I was. I would I think Simvil has got this. But the only thing I would say is just don't settle. Don't settle for anything less than what you feel like

you deserve at this point in your life. That's kind of one of the reasons I waited until I was sixty because I felt like, you know, a lot of times I was settling, and to be quite honest, I felt like if I went into a relationship with this person, they'd be settling. I think I think online dating at this point, I get this. You know, we're at an age where we don't really go to a lot of places to meet people, and and that is set up

to meet people. You can kind of put in your filters and just select the people that you want to meet. You can kinda talk to him before you have to actually, you know, sit down and talk to him. You can talk to him online or something. I think that's that's just how it's going to be, you know, going forward. I think that's the future of dating, and you know, I don't think we should be resistant to that, you know.

To RTI's point, I think the shoot the pandemic really did a number on meeting people in quote unquote real life, as if the Internet hadn't already been doing a number. But I think the idea of normal has shifted. This this is shifted so far from what we were used to. You know, I believe technology is in some ways it allows you to meet more of a person because you have, you know, the separation. All you have is communication. You don't have the you don't have the pressure of you

know this got to move this fast or whatever. Like bro we I ain't listen. We've quarantined fortune day before I even even we even talk about that. Text me called me voice. No, let me see what your voice sounds like. I feel like there's a lot of benefits to social media that allows us to learn more about a person quicker. Um. And honestly, I think there's some and there is the last thing gonna say. I think there's some online dating without dating sites, if that makes sense.

I think a lot of times you find community, uh in other spaces, you know, on social media, you you know, find like minded individuals. I feel like when you do it on a dating site specifically, then there's that it's got to be this or nothing, you know what I mean. And I think finding community on other apps or you know, like Melissa has a book club, you know, I have

a group of Patreon friends. Some people have literally found love in the community of you know watching our podcast and gotten married, had whole children, but might not have met on a dating app. You know it's because you're literally swiping a person away. That is an elite move to be like I literally moving you away from my

eyes with my thumb like that. You would never do nobody like that in real Imagine you go to a bar like, hey, how are you and you just swipe your thumb away just like so so yeah, I'd say be open to the other aspects of the Internet that aren't necessarily like you know, Tinder and hinge and you know whatever else. All right, one to ask question before we moved to our wouldn't you like to know questions? And that is Kevin and Melissa. You guys have been

married the longest, so far the most successful. Do you have any advice that you would give to Rodney because he this is so new? So maybe I should say Rodney and I not just not just put it all on Rodney, but Rodney and I, Oh listen, we gave that man. You guys honestly have so much good uh bearings about you that that most people don't have at any era of their marriage. Um. So no, I think

you guys are on your way. I think you guys are, and from what I've listened to over the last hour, so I'm like, they got they've you know, you've learned a lot apart that you are applying together, and I think that's the most valuable part. I feel like learning that person holy not just how they interact with you. It is such an important part of learning someone. I think um uh and their family story is so valuable.

Watching Melissa's mom, knowing how her mom got when the house was dirty and she just fussed at everybody and we were all enemies. Then when Melissa fusses that everybody, I'm like, that's that's your mama, and I haven't see that. I haven't seen that, So now I know she's not picking on me per se, She's just you guys should

see Melissa's face. She's totally serious. Okay, moving on to our segment, wouldn't you like to know where you answer three rapid fire questions with the first phrase that comes to your mind? Kevin and Melissa, what books are you reading right now? I am reading Barack Obama's The Promised Land. Kevin, The Power of Full Engagement. The Powerful Engagement is the book I'm reading right now. It's about managing your energy, not just your time, how to manage your energy as well.

Oh cool, cool, that's interesting, babe. What about you. I am looking forward to reading Barack Obama's new book. Yeah, okay, and Sybil, I am reading Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. Yes, I love that guy. Yeah. What is his name again? His name is Emmanuel Acho. Yes, yes, I saw him on Oprah. Yeah he's popping right now. Yeah. Yeah, alright, Kevin and Melissa. One thing you want to get off your chest. Mashed potatoes do not belong on the Thanksgiving spread. Oh,

Rodney would disagree. One. He's not happy unless like last night, he was like, Okay, where the mashed potatoes. I was like, they're here, babe, they're here. This is the hill she is willing to die on. I will die on this hill. Mashed potatoes, double log Oh yeah, babe, absolutely, mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes. Sorry, Melissa, you lose, you lose. I know what I want to get off my chest. Black people, we can have Thanksgiving at one. It don't have to

be so late. We didn't. This is the first time in a long time I have been to my grandma's house. We was eating at one. I said, this is all right, we don't have to wait till four and five. I don't. I shouldn't be about to die before I eat. It allows for adequate eating, nap, eat again, and then it's not bad time yet. That's a good one. Civil What about to what's one thing you want to get off your chest? I just wish more people would look inside

for healing as opposed to outside for blaming. I just found out that one of my siblings was blaming me for something that happened many years ago that I didn't even do. My other sister did it, and she was there and she spoke up. She was like, you've been blaming her all these years. I did that and I got the butt whipping for it. And so I'd just like for people to take care of themselves, go inside instead of blaming outside. Got it. That's a good one.

What about you be? So what I want to get off my chest is if I'm in the store with you and you're behind me doing social distancing, six ft means six ft, Give me my damn six ft, Sybil, what's a model that you live by? Don't negotiate against yourself, Sybil, you've been in your bag today. I was getting ready to say, where did that come from? That's what I lived by. I learned that very early in recovery. My

self esteem was so low. I thought you were always going to tell me no, and I retrained, you know, to not negotiate against myself. So the sky is the limit. It's up to you to tell me no, but it's up to me to ask. So I don't negotiate against myself anymore. I love that, damn girl. See that's why you might sponsor. That's why you might sponsor right there. Yes, all right, Kevin and Melissa, I live by. I can accept failure. I cannot accept not trying. Mm hmm. Yeah

that's a good one too. Yeah, failure is fine. I've failed a lot. I learned a lot from feeling, but I gotta I can lay on my deathbed like man. I tried it all. I lost some stuff, but we went afterward with everything, and that's that's all I ask for myself. Yeah, yeah, Melissa, mine is I am enough as is, without change, without exception. It's absolutely my mantra. You know what. This has been an awesome conversation Rodney.

Actually Kevin. Kevin took mine, so I gotta come up with another one, because minds was never be afraid to fail. So I'm gonna come with I'm gonna be a little philosophical here and and and say oh easily with love. Okay, that's a good one too. I actually am working very hard to try to live and be in a more compassionate space then I have been previously, because that that's I'm not good with that. Yes, I thank you guys for being on positively gave it was It was so

much fun. Thank you so much, Kevin and Melissa. Why don't you share all of your where people can find you on social media and your podcast? So I am atmos keep on stage on all social media platforms. He is at keV on stage on all social media platforms, and together we host a podcast called The Love Our Podcast, where again we talked about love, life and the pursuit of happiness. We give a lot of our life stories.

We have tons of experts. Come on and it's one of my favorite passion checks and cibil Are you on social media? I am on Facebook and it's under my name symbol Amaney M Hm and Rodney, I know that's all you do. You're you're not a big social media person. It's okay, big thank you guys for joining us. It's been a pleasure. Have a great day, all right. Bye. Thank you to my guests Rodney, Sybil, Melissa and Kevin for sharing their relationship stories. And these are my five takeaway.

Number one, don't negotiate against yourself. Number two, you need to know who you are as an individual before you can commit to someone else. Number three, communication is key. Take the time to figure out what you're feeling and how to express it clearness. Number four, you deserve to be loved the way you want to be loved, not have someone else wants to love you. And number five marriage takes work. Make sure you're ready, babe, you got

anything you want to add? My takeaway is I'm glad I waited as long as I did to get married and I'm glad it was you, babe, Babe, I love you. We're done here, Let's go home positively. Gam is produced by Westbrook Audio Executive producers Adrian Vanfield, Norris, Jada Pinkett Smith, Amanda Brown and Fallon jethro Co executive producer sim Hoti segment producer Ash Francis, associate producer Erica Ron, editor and mixer Calvin Bayliss. Positively gam Is in partnership with Art nineteen Stop seven