V For Vendetta (Part 3)

which will describe next week. Uh. So Book three, which is called The Land of Do As You Please, Uh, begins with the symphony of the blowing up Jordan's Tower, which uh, I think that we'll get into the timeline of the movie, which I think is a little cleaner. But yeah, I really liked it. I really like the timeline of the movie. But in this we also have this on November. He blows up jordan Tower on November five, and then November six, sort of the Land of Do

as You Please anarchy stuff sort of begins. So well, it wasn't anarchy, it was chaos, chaos which he hopes will become anarchy. But I thought it was really important that they made that distinction because I think a lot of people don't fully understand what anarchy is as a philosophy, as opposed to just like colloquial usage of the word anarchy anarchy were like, no one's in charge, it's anarchy, and that's not the same thing. Yes, I don't know.

Just do you have a good understanding of what anarchy is, because I'm not actually sure I know what it looks like in practice. I don't think I know what it looks like in practice, and I think I did not have a very good understanding of it prior to reading this book, because my idea of anarchy came from like a meme that I saw on my Space, like two thousand five. It was like, anarchy is bad because it's people running around, and you know what happens when everybody

is running around scraped knee. I was like, Oh, that sounds terrible. I just think about the purge like it's like, oh, it's one day of anarchy, no rules, and this is a bunch of murder, murder. Daddy's everywhere, murder, daddy's murder,

mommy's murder, murder uncle. I will say, by the by the end of this book, things do not appear to be getting better unless we all felt the Catharsis, and I guess ellen Bore wanted us to feel by watching a wealthy woman get raped by a group of homelessman A very weird ending to a book, but okay, I guess that is what ellen Moore wanted to end on. I think Alan Moore is very bad on women, and I want to talk about that a little later and

the full thing. But I also want to say one thing that I think is um starkly different from both the film and sort of how the character of the has been portrayed. He's not like a great guy, He's not like the hero. He's like he has no charm about him whatsoever. Like for me in the book, he's like stop what the monologues dude? And you note but deeply weird in a good way. There's a lot of guy in your m f A under coming from ving. There's this point at which Evie was like, can you

just say what you mean? And I would like, thank you, thank you for actually saying that, But like, I think this is a really good point where I've been seeing a lot of stuff like on TikTok because I'm super cool and young, and on TikTok about how um media literacy means that you don't necessarily just because somebody is the main character, have to identify with them, And just because somebody's the main character does not mean that they are correct. And I think that V as a flawed person.

I think we can all agree that VA is a deeply flawed person and he's not always correct, And this monologueing at ev and not answering any questions directly is just frankly infuriating. He also guess letter in the most horrifying way I can imagine anybody being gas. I mean, he plays games with her in ways that I think the movie tries to make justifiable, and like in the grand scheme of things, I would argue that like symbolically

they succeed. In the book, he comes off as much less charming, much more insane, with a far less like consistent ideology. And I think that Evie becomes spoiler like becoming V at the end makes more sense if V is like a deeply imperfect symbol and unlikable character, right. And it also has to do with the idea that anarchy has two sides, destruction and creation, and he was destruction and she was creation, and next week always talked about the movie. I have more things I don't want

to say about that. So the thing that I wanted to focus on first about three is a character that's not in the movie, Rosemary, who goes through a journey a brief recap. Rosemary is in an abusive marriage with that of the ear who listens into all the phone tapping. He dies, and then she starts sleeping with Roger Dascombe, who's the head of the visual Jordan Tower at the mouth thank you. Uh. He also dies. People think she's deeply cursed because the last two dudes she slept with died.

She is miserable at the Sad Cabaret. Uh. She is forced to work as a a burlesque dancer, a dancer non consensually in the sense that she does not want to do and she's doing it only for money that she desperately needs. Uh. And then she's driven to murdering to going full taxi driver and murdering Adam Susan in the street in what this chore and in a way that then talking about taxi driving in a way that v then seems to argue that he orchestrated the whole thing.

Because she is the last rose he cultivated. What did you guys make of this subplot? I mean, she's what a sad, sad character to like to have that be her kind of whole arc of like, you know, being subjugated to like the intense violent patriarchy of this particular society, having her husband killed, but being sad about that loss, to to like sit with that loss of this person who was like deeply abusive to her as well, and then to like go and just straight I mean just

straight up, point blank shoot that man. And the worst the worst part for me is she doesn't even have any like um agency in this because then they frame it as the fact that she was all just part of v scheme that he puppet mastered, this miserable woman, and they also felt like not just no agency, but like her character just really doesn't have any It doesn't have any like full three dimensional like depth or I don't know who she is outside of the horrible men

that she has been with, or like the horrible man she kills at the end, like it like EVI, at least you understand who she is and and she like you. You kind of have this three sixty view of her, but Rosemary just feels like this sad abuse lady who then is up I guess upon and VI's whole chess game. But I don't quite understand how he did that. I

don't get that either. Yeah, neither. It didn't make any sense, like there were there were plot holes you could drive a mac dress true, especially bensidering, like I get that then, or that the chaos is a part of these plan, Like that makes sense, But then you can't say, yes, I plan for chaos, but then within this chaos, I plan for this woman to specifically go up to the leader of the country and shoot him point blank, you know, and it's gonna work perfectly. They're gonna they're gonna let

her through. We're planning that creedy. We know that Creedy sort of wants to sabotage Adam, and so he'll sabotage him by putting him out in public when maybe a lady could assassinate him. Like all of these pieces are do not fit together. Either the plan is chaos or the plan is a plan, Like you can't have it both ways. Yes, it's very joker, we're jokers. Things were all very thought through in Dark Knight dark Knight. Oh yeah, you get to plant a lot of bombs in advance

of his cattle work. Yeah. Yeah, it was almost it's too neat, like the level of chaos that he's trying to invoke, and then for that to be Like as she was walking through the crowd, I was like, even that's a little too far fetched just to let one lady walk through the crowd in this public moment. I'm like, this is a little like her, Like, get her out

of the way, keep away from the man. They'll die if they get too you know, I'm thinking of myself if I was in that society, and I would fully be like stay away from her, Like I would be one of the people pushing that Laura about her as well. She's she's car don't go and don't sleep with her. And then there's the other wife of a top party member who is deeply fascinating and Jennifer, I know, I'm getting obsessed with Helen Hair. She's not a good person,

but I am extremely interested. Like she's bad but also she's kind of bad. Yeah, she's bad in a fun way, and we meet her really in in book three, Jennifer, will you describe her for maybe people who have a read it. So Helen Hair is just enthusiastically sexually dominating every man who comes into her proximity. Um, I think the first time we see her, the first time we

see her, she's selling at her husband like always. The next time we see her, her husband just like kneeling before her um and towlding her off as she everges from the bath, and then he tries to go down on him and she like kicks him away. So um, it's it's very interesting that in this society every man and she goes on to half an affair with what's

his name, Ali Ali Creedy creating the same as Ali. No. Creedy is the head of the Finger who's the evil policeman and Ali Ali and Creedy um have an alliance. Creedy sort of wants that you said Ali Creedy, and I was like, I'm so confused. Now, both Creedy and Hair and want a need to use Allie's gang powers and then to get the chaos power. So Helen Hair wants to be a vita um and you know what,

it almost works out for her. She's having an affair with Ali so she can use his brute force to help elevate her husband to the position of High Chancellor, and uh they end up killing each other in a lover's quarrel. Oh for Helen, Uh so it doesn't happen, and she is pretty mad at her husband for fucking things out that way. I love the negotiation of price that she has with Ali for his services, where she's like, well, how much are you getting paid by Creedy right now?

And he was like, oh, like five hundred a week when it's four hundred a week, And then she's like, wow, I really would have thought he wouldn't pay you more than four hundred hundred. Yeah, where where are you coming at this? Cos I want to Lady Lady Macbeth and her regional theater production. Definitely I got very lady m vibes from her, because like, how did she get her power in this society of just being she's the only one, the only one. She's really interesting as a woman in

the society. She's obviously a terrible person, but it just feels so unlikely that any woman would have this capacity to dominate people, have you, especially the ear Yeah, And and then of course he becomes the v uses like the voyeuristic thing of the cameras to uh to cause the chaos smart doubt smarter in his perfect like puppet master way, which seems like a sort of like a line from like a Bob Dylan or like a folk

song like Oh and the Voyeurs on the CCTV. It's like that the classic idea that like I will be like he uses their their tools of mass surveillance against

them and we're all pervert seeing it. Bob Dylan. Now, Um, what I was gonna say was her level of power as a woman in this society where women are just like massively disempowered kind of reminds me of Serena Joy in uh, The Handmaid Sale, but like the adaptation of The Handmaid Sale, not the book The Handmaids Tale, because I feel like Serena Joy has a lot more power in the screen adaptation versus the book, but she's still

thing about Serena Joy. She at least has to have the effect of being like a dutiful wife that she feels honored to have this home. In this husband to follow, Helven Hair so clearly doesn't think have that pretense at all, Like the first time he's see her, she's being really shitty to her husband, and Roseberry is like, she's kind of a mean lady, and Roseberry's husband says, fucky, he is awesome, and we all like her. Her level of

like sexual manipulation isn't even understated. It is so outrageously in it's just crank. Yeah, it's crank to eleven. There's no there's no pussy footing around about it. It's just like I didn't even need to say that. I'm embarrassed. Sometimes. Also, these comic book women are drawn in a way where I'm like, David Lloyd, you had a day drawing those boobs, didn't you? Oh my god, just massive watermelons, just enormous boobs.

Oh yeah, when she's like, look what you're missing. Had a day drawing the like cabaret ladies with their asses, like out to the stages. Eighties comic book artists loved

drawing at boobs and butts. It's their favorite thing. Dana and I wrote for she Hulk, and so we spent a lot of time with those she Whole comics, and my god, they are so horny for she Hulk, Like it's just like the way their boobs with like like grip two sure in a way that was like, oh, there gripped like under the boob and to the side of the boob, and it's just like a blouse in a way. I look like, that's not how That's not how gravity works. The clothes are like painted painted on,

but only for part of it. And then there's like a little bit of a blouse for you know, demure for because if we don't do that, I was saying, if we if we didn't see the line of the boob, how would we know she has boobed adjacent to that too?

Just to touch on like how this particular you know illustrator is uh portraying women every time e V screams, I'm like, this is a grotesque portrayal of this woman's face that like towards the end, I was like, this is this is a different person I had that not like she is I think like fifteen different women in this book. At the beginning, she's like a little scared Lolita esque drawing, and then she becomes a like a like a when she's with that nice guy you know,

lives with him. She's like a like a seventies sitcom lady. And then she turns and she goes and is tortured, and she looks like a hundred and five years old in this chapter, like I had it open to this page. She looks like like a like sort of like Jennifer Gray. She looks kind of like an X man. She looks like she looks like a gargoyle off the side of a building. That also is like the gutter that's brays water. But then yes, this what's that? That's like? This is

all very great for any Chloris leech Man. I'm gonna be back real quick. I'm just gonna write a manifesto, be back into gym. I did want to make one more point about Helen Hair before we move on to women. No, this is essential. Have any of you read or seen the film The Wife. Yeah, it's it's a different dynamic. It's not like a sexually dominant dynamic. But the titch I'm gonna spoil the Wife, but it's not a spoiler. You know it the whole thing and it's just whatever

the titular wife. And the Wife is a wonderful writer, but it's like in America, and she knows that her books will never get the attention or acclaim that they'll get under her name as they would under her husband's name. So she like makes the decision out, like you're gonna publish my books and we're going to have this partnership

and we're both in on it and this is our relationship. Um, And that a little bit feels like a muted version of the Helen Hair thing of like I can't be the face of the who's in charge, so I am going to use you, my husband, as the man puppet for me to get my agenda across. I feel like though I don't think her husband was as in on it, and I don't think it was I feel like it was like a Rebecca type deal where she got married to him and she was like, great, we're not going

to have sex. I'm gonna like withhold sex from you, and you're gonna be in charge of the ear and I'm going to make sure or was he the ear or the mouth? He he was the No, he was the eye because he had the cameras right, Oh yeah, he liked watch the propagateda the visual thing before you're without the seeing. But so she's like, you're gonna be in charge of the eye because I say so, and that's how I'm going to get to the top like it was hardcore lady m energy. You don't think that

it's a consensual b D s M relationship. I think it's pretty into it. Um like makes it clear at the very end that she's going to have sex with them because she's going to be in a good mood. I do. I don't think it's kind of likes it. Yeah, I don't think it. I think he gets off on it. I think he likes for sure. I know. I don't.

I don't get that sense, just because of that scene where she's with Ali, she's like the cameras are off because they had that sort of blackout of surveillance, and then she's got her like eighties tich and she's and she's like pointing him at the camera, which she thinks isn't recording anything, and she's like, hey, look what you're missing. And then later he flies into like furious rage and that's why he ends up killing Oh, you're right. I

think he's curious because his wife's sleeping with another. Yeah, that's what I that's what I gathered from that change. I mean, I think it's both. I gathered that he's sorry when she was in the top like he was townling her off. He clearly sees her tits on a regular basis, right, but I don't think he gets to touch them on a regular I mean I was reading it, I was like, what a cook? Indeed he quite literally, yeah he really is. So that's where what did you

think of the ending? We got to go back to part of the north. I guess, well, that's not good sleep. But well it's sad that he said with his wife and she's sleeping with another, but they're all bad. Yeah, yeah, he'sac to say. I got a lot of ship for saying that the cabaret seemed like a place I would want to hang out. I think we should give Jen just a little bit more ship for feeling bad. Both equal and fascist sympathize. That's instant of his life. Seems okay,

But Colin Hair deeply sucks. Yes, yeah, um okay, so with Helen Hair, I don't believe that rapists an appropriate punishment for everyone and for anyone and for everyone for anyone. Um. I really don't care for that end. And it also was just such a weird tag, Like what a choice to end on that, Like it's hard enough the choice in it of itself is like, oh, she's going to be raped, that's her punishment is rough. But it's like and also, that's going to be the ending of V

for Vandetta. It's like we can all feel happy about Helen Hair getting raped as opposed to like I was like, wait, I turned the page, being like, that's not that can't be the end of it though, that's the tone he wants to end on, that the sexually manipulative woman is going to be in a forced Island sexual submission. That I think in my mind I had transposed the two parts of the ending, and after I read it, I immediately was like, oh, she had the bad thing happened.

But then we had Evie bringing that guy into the shadow gallery and like she's going to be the next vat that is the end of In my brain I made that the end. I was like this, well that would be better. That's that's a way better ending because it's almost like a little optimistic and hope for the future. And then it's like, wait, one more page, we forgot to rape. Believe. Look, I also just don't believe that Helen Hair is going to be kept down for long,

Like that woman seems remarkably indomitable. I am saying metaphorically right, not no, she's She's obviously going to be raped terrifically, and Alamor seems psyched about that, and it's a note he wanted to end on. But look, I'm not saying I want a sequel. That's just Helen Hair once again taking over society in a ruthless way. But if it existed,

I would read it. You know what, Jennifer, there are more than enough stories about like awful men rising through the ranks of power and how and why they do it. It would be interesting to see one about it Helen Hair's rest to power like Wicked. Sure, yeah, let's actually, you know what, I wanted to be a musical just like Vida. I wanted Madnna to play Helen Higher. I literally meant the book Wicked, though, I just want to

make that very clear. I also think that this sort of goes into like why Alan Moore is bad at women one because he sees them all as sexual objects and like all of their problems are like sex based. Like there's Helen Hair, who again is just like a cardboard cutout of a dominatrix, then gets what she deserves in his opinion, not in my opinion, um Evie with her like weird daddy issues that he goes way too

much into. And then Rosemary, who again it's like her relationships with men put her in this very like sexually vulnerable position, and then she is not even a person who makes decisions. She's just a pawn in the plan, like every woman has some deeply weird sexual thing with her. Oh she's cool, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, VAL's on that chapter is like genuinely so sweet and nuanced, and yet we don't get that with anyone else. It is. The unfortunate thing is that it's the same issue of like

queer people always dying in literature. Yes, and Delia also now has to be in a relationship with Finch, which she didn't have to. Yeah that's oh yeah, that was

weird that they threw that in there. They're just like and we're sleeping together, by the way, Well, I think it's interesting that to your point, Dana, I think the one thing that is I think an interesting challenge about these kind of like authoritarian dystop dystopias is that they're usually like patriarchies, and so these women are so reliant on men for survival that like, even when Evie is kicked out, she does have to like go find shelter

with this man. And I think that's why Handmaid's Tale is so interesting. I mean I've not read it, I've only seen the adaptation, but you know in a Woman's Hands that this that that you can find like stories that are separate from men. But I think that is a challenge to do in like a patriarchal, authoritarian regime

that you're setting your story. And I guess I have less of an issue with like e with Evie being like reliant on men, and more of an issue that like I don't know, the daddy issue stuff and the issues I just was trying to see, Like, I think it is a challenge, and then if you don't have that perspective, you're going to just kind of fall back on tropes and I And I also think in Alan Moore's defense, I think so much of the for Vendetta is meant to be like making a larger political point,

so like characters fall by the wayside because he's trying to make his argument in a in a in a way that comes across. Yeah, it's a manifesto as much

as it is a piece of art. I think the tiny glimmer of like him potentially being more thoughtful about it is that like the one little girl in the book with the glasses is the one that like one of the first outside characters that like takes up you know, graffiti v um onto the street, which to me is like you know, in Lesser Hands would have gone to like a little boy, you know, like and I think that is like an interesting an interesting choice in a

small detail that I loved and loved seeing we'll talk about it later, but loved seeing in the movie as well, like that tiny little moment. Yeah, some of the stuff in the movie we were talking about it a little off off Mike that we'll talk to in our movie episode, but like little easter eggs that are directly from the graphic novel that I think make it more satisfying. Mm hmmm. I want to talk about faith. Oh yeah, Karama bring

us up to speed with faith. So faith, as we've talked about, and I think chapter not Chapter two, but Book two was the like supercomputer that tells Susan what to do and he's like kind of creepy in love with it, says I Love You near the end of the book two, and then in book Flree it's heavily implied that he sleeps with the computer. Right. It wasn't just me right, they have a sexual it's an x

mack in a situation. Yeah, I mean I was like, he found a drive and I just went to down like that's the way I read it, m bloppy drive. It was the eighties they use floppy does excuse you? So yeah, Then you find out that v has access to Fate in his in the basement of his shadow gallery home that has like eight levels and an elevator. Apparently, um, how is no again a block hole that you could drive a mack truck through? But again, manifesto more than not more than art, but as much as it is art.

So yeah, I thought it was interesting too. For me was frustrating because if he had access to this supercomputer and could then give messages to the government directly, Uh, it was just sort of like, why don't you make things better for some of the people while you're doing your scheme. I really liked it because it's like, this is the best episode of MTVS Catfish I've ever seen life, just like the like just thinking about the spending all that time flirting with uh, what's his name, Adam Susan

through the computer. It's so it's so fun to think about just like him back at the in his eight story elevator home, just like sending sex through the fate computer to Susan. It's it's great. It's just very funny because what this was written in like the eighties, right that it is very like early Hackers, that kind of style stuff where it's like you can't really like these days. Of course v is has hacked into the supercomputer, like that is the first thing a terror or not a terror,

you know what I mean? And what v would do and uh, and it just it's very funny. It's like it's so simple that like, oh, I'm just gonna like log into the supercomputer and just and just talked and that that's all I can do is just talk to him, just like send messages on like a black and green screen. Um. Yeah, yeah,

it's like ten years before the movie Hackers. So he was really looking far ahead, I think, and I mean very he again a historical catfish, and also very funny that with this power he couldn't like disarmed bombs or like do anything tangible for his plan, forget like helping people having Adam Susan fall in love with him the via computer like doesn't really affect his plan other than

like he doesn't really need to do it again. It's so he does these things for himself, and that one feels that one feels like a personal pet project that he like dislikes this high Chancellor so much that like the best revenge is like, yeah, make him funk this computer. Yeah, it does seem like it undermines uh sus insanity the guys of other people, Helen hair points so that they shouldn't have him to a parade to restore confidence because

he's insane. Yeah, um, I think that, though he does use it for concrete things at times, like he uses it to send all those the mail that male things Oh yeah yeah, like poems in the mail. I'm just like, I don't know if he knows what he's doing. Yeah, I wouldn't if I got a poem in the mail, I would think it was just a direct marketing stunt. I wouldn't think it was a call to anarchy, yeah, especially because it was not like anarchist poetry. It was

just like flowers. It's also weird you've seen a bird? Yes, he has the foresight and like mental acumen to like manipulate every act of Rosemary's life and and drive her to homicide. And yet he doesn't really know how to how to put that organization skill into any other aspect of his plan. Yeah, the best thing you can do is like a postcards campaign like the last election. That's my point. He has an opportunity to do so much good, and he sends people weird cryptic poetry in the mail

and then makes the dude sleep with a computer. Do you remember, like six months ago when a bunch of people just got seeds in the mail? Yes, what is this like us in this year? Hundreds of people maybe thousands, I'm not sure, but a lot of people got mysterious seeds in the mail, and then the government was like, please don't plant Oh no, I'm curious. Did they ever find out who sent them and what were they didn't

want to test the seeds? Some people planted them before they That feels this, It feels like how a little shop of horrors gets started. Oh that sounds fun though, like just a little fun, like a little carnivorous plan I was gonna say, in terms of anarchy destruction, I would argue that Tyler Dirtan does something much better by

destroying the records of credit card debt. Yeah. Fight Club, that's a love fight Club so much I'm gonna make I'm gonna make a point and I want both for Vendetta and fight Club are rare cases of the movies better than the book. Yes, I would say that I read and seen Fighting book is Chuck Palinak. Chuck Palinak was like the movie has a much better ending the book movie poster in way too many dorm rooms that here's the thing about fight Club, and then we can

move away from it. But um, fight Club is another instance of you are not supposed to identify with the main character. And it's also one of those instances of people misreading the point, like it's an indictment of toxic masculinity, and people are like, you don't want to fight and I want to make soap and I want to have insomnia, and like that's not the point. Their lives suck and you shouldn't want to do what they do. It's the sad cabaret, but with men and soap, can I also

say something deeply embarrassing about be for Vendetta. I didn't. I didn't realize that the circle and the V was an upside down anarchy symbol until like a few days ago. I didn't realize until you just told me that me neither. I was driving in l A and I saw an anarchy symbol, and for a second, I was like, it's a V for Vandetta thing. And then I was like, oh, Jennifer, and I knew Jennifer, and I also knew that all the chapters started with V. I'm just saying, you guys

have to pick up on these clues. Okay, Alan is dropping them, and pick them up. We're all going to print out all of these poems and we're going to figure out the messages. So he's getting to us. So if someone mailed you an anonymous poem in the mail, you wouldn't the government something They did that a while ago for some comics. UM, I don't know, some maker

of comic books, comic publishers. Um, they sent this weird random letter in the mail to like various comic people's houses and Dana as you know, as somebody who has written comic books. Comic fans are insane, said death threats on like a regular basis. Um. So we found out that this was viral marketing, fortunately very quickly, because otherwise we were going to call the police. Um. It was

not reassuring to know that a crazy person had air address. Yeah, Jack Horsemen where they do the viral marketing for the show that he's on, that has like it looks like a ransom note like somebody else what idea was exactly like that? It was like cutout letters, centuary indication. Yeah, I'm going to be back in just a minute. I got a bunch of poems in the mail. So a brief full circle. Now back to be for Vendetta of

plans that don't really make any any sense. Finch. He was the detective on the case of trying to find out. I know, I'm really bringing this back. Finch, there's the detective for the Scotland Yard. His plan, to understand be to get inside the terrorist's mind is to go to Larkhill and drop acid. Oh my god, that that scene because first of all, yes, dropping acid at a concentration camp, weird choice. I'm gonna go on the record and say don't do don't don't go to concentration camps and drop acid.

I think we can stand for that as a podcast. But the second thing is when he was tripping because like they killed all the black people in the society, he has this like hallucination that they're black people, and he's like, Oh, I forgot how cool your skin? Like a big yikes. It was a huge yikes. I will say, of all the things that we've read thus far as a book club, it took the longest to get to

the weird racism in this one. They really bury the lead in this one because all this Costley was like boom, page three saying some weird stuff about negro egg. But this one was a slow burn and I knew that it was racist as a society because they killed all the black people. But like that was where I was like, oh, I rooted for you before, and this was weird. You didn't need to do that. He was he was. It's almost it's like well meaning racism where he thought he

was really doing something. M yeah. Well, he also makes it clear that he was on the side of killing all those people, like he misses them now. But oh yeah, fish sucks. And also Finch, I meant well meaning racism on the part of Alan Moore, who was, yeah, that that is what I read what you said as he was like, yeah, I'm trying to make a statement that he is like weird and racist and like that's not you didn't know he tried. But then Finch, who else

who sucks? He's the one in the book who spoiler alert, kills me and he's excited about it. What did you guys make of that? Yeah, he was like too excited.

I was kind of honestly sad that Finch was the one that took me down, like for for everything that V stands for, and like, you know, as far as adversaries goes, like adversaries go, um, Finch is sad and weird and pathetic and like shouldn't have been the one to take down this idea of V. In my opinion, it's just like you're telling me, he drops acid and kills the main character, Like come on, And he also felt like I like the idea that he figures out

where he's where he is, like the station and stuff, I think, but the fact that he also he not only he like bests him also physically and mentally feels strange and also I think like and then we can talking about the all time of the movie next week.

But it's like he's always catching up, but he's always late, right, And that's what it feels like, is the proper level of like he's smarter than the rest of these idiots, spine, but he's not as smart as B. And I like the idea that the is like, uh a part, like a part of his plan is his death and I get jumping to the movie, but it feels like not having v B a little bit more responsible for his

own death field. It also felt very weird to me that the the arc that they're asking us to go on with Finch is that he goes to lark Hill and understand he drops his ascid to understand the and then his next immediate move is to be like, ha I killed him, my god, Like he didn't go through that ascid at the concentration camp, did nothing, and then like pasted a woman, push a woman back in getting raped, and then it's like he's the final frame of the story,

which is very strange to me with his pipe with this pipe, like like to go back to those last two pages that are so terrible, Like I couldn't understand Alan Moore's reasoning of putting like chaos in the last two pages of like oh look this like best laid plans or whatever, like it's still going to be bad, but to a specify it as rape for this one character, and also ended with like Finch walking down the road

being like, man, what a journey. I'm like he wasn't He's not poor rot, Like it's not like what are

we doing here? He's the grizzled hero. He dropped as ad a concentration camp and murdered me and now on he walks, you know, Kelen hair backing being I think you're right to of like asking v to be more responsible or more careful, like he literally has, you know, taken um responsibility for the very precise killing of Adam Susan in the parade with Helen higher like why would he let Finch just like pop him one in the subway? Like it doesn't make any sense to me. I think

he wants to die. I think he's ready. I think he knows that it's time that the mantle gets passed on to a new person, and that person is going to be efy do it in a cooler way totally agreed. You organize all this, You're he's so theatrical. He loves theatrics. You're gonna die just by like a crazy guy with by the clock shadows, shooting biking burial, like he's going to be sent off. Even monologue, he could go with a cooler death. I mean, he got a little bit.

He said the thing about the ideas or bulletproof. This is my thesis and the whole riddle of like take off my mask but don't see my face, blah blah blah. But how am I to remember at that point, she's sixteen years old. She's like, how do I see your face if I take off that I'm not supposed to, but I am okay uh. I read that later. I read that late at night, and the panels were like she we think that she's taking off the mask. Each time I was like, that was, oh wait a minute.

Also like today, I did not like that the panels. I know it's not real, but that the panels showed a face at all, Like I thought that was a weird choice to me because I thought the whole point is you never see his face, and it's like, so now we're seeing the imagined face that Ev. It just felt like it takes away a little bit of me. It's like seeing a dame named Rebecca. You think, then you don't bringing it back the circle. Yeah, So I will say I was unsatisfied by the ending. It just

didn't hit emotionally for me. When I think that the world is so theatrical and I wanted a big emotional hit. It felt very Yeah, it felt very lackluster. At the end book three, I found myself very angry and very confused for a lot of time, especially because like there's I don't think we should see everything, like I don't think it needs to be like every single thing they

do needs to be in panels. But also like there's this point where V quotes some dude Alistair somebody I can't remember the yeah, yea, thank you um, But like remember before Eve doesn't know much about things, and then she's like, don't you quote Alistair Crowley. I mean, I'm like, wait, when did she become like she has a lot of books educational but we don't see that. But it felt and then they mentioned it on the next page. I was like, Okay, I'm caught up, but it felt very weird.

At first, because that wasn't who this character was. Yeah, but they did show her, okay, so there was a specific like they did show her working out and like getting ripped because at the end I was like, how did she pick up the and put him onto this like Viking burial? And I was like, because she worked out, so Karma, I see, I see your point. I see

your point. We should have seen some reading from her, yeah, just a little montage of her like reading, I like doing co ups, you know, yeah, I think, yeah, that's good. The panel that was helen hair getting riped could have been EVI reading a book. Just push everything back one panel. Sure. I tried to think about what it ended would be like that I would have liked more, and I had a very difficult time coming up without nothing though. I think the idea that e VI becomes fee is really nice.

I don't know if I wanted Helen to meet up with Finch and him to be like, that's a great plan, Helen, You're right, let's take over the world. Were the villains now to protect the world from devastation? Yeah, I do it is I think satisfying that she puts on the mask.

That felt inevitable, but it didn't have like comics can have a big emotional impact, you know, like a full splash page or like, I don't know something about it didn't feel like it's almost like I think some artists and writers think that, like, sometimes things are cliche so they don't do them, But sometimes things are cliche because they work, and it's like, well, don't take those tools

out of your toolbox because they work. So I kind of think that maybe Allan Moore was consciously like, I'm not going to give you like the big, clean, thartic third act reveal that you want when it's like, well, yeah, maybe that's like a classic structure, but it's classic because it it's sort of proven and audience is like that right, and you're gonna screw something into a wall, you're probably

going to need to use like a Phillips had screwdriver. Sorry, that's just what you want to get that job done, and if you want to satisfying ending, there are some tools that you will need to rely on. Okay, very

butch metaphor love it, love it. But maybe maybe as as you've said before that this is like manifesto art, like maybe he wanted it to be unsatisfying, because you know, revolution anarchy and trying to overthrow some sort of fascist government isn't like a one and done catharsis ending, And it's like a kind of how we feel which is this like in overthrowing the government isn't like a c W what are you talking about? But I mean, you know,

maybe that's what he was trying to go for. It's like all of this chaos has happened, and like some people will move forward and walk off into the distance like Finch and not turn back. But like, no one's going to get a satisfying ending from this. But I guess my I totally agree with you that I think

that that's what Alan Moore is going with. But I think that some things are so neat, like like V being like uh my last rose that I cultivated with Rosemary, and then some things are so messy where I'm like

one or the other. I think that the idea that V has been formulating this plan for twenty years and it is like a perfectly orchestrated plan like that is very satisfying to me, and so I wish that like carried through to the structure of the end of the book, and I think to me, that didn't like I agree.

I think that's what Allan Moore was trying to do with the ending, And I feel like it didn't land for me because they personalized it with this character of Helen Higher, which feels like still these plans are working that because she's a part of the system and Finch,

you know, bested v and he's walking off. Like if it were I think it would be more anonymous, like seeing the chaos and seeing the you know, people being killed or raped or assaulted like as and it's like, oh and the system and it like continues to be good and bad or happening at the same time. But when you personalize it with this woman that like she's getting hers you know, it just feels like, oh and

you know, you don't see that much good happening. Would Would it be nicer if some people were growing a community guarding Yes, I love that because like that's the thing you can do with your neighbors. It doesn't require organized leadership. Um, like you could help your neighbors and that would be nice and that would show us that like, while we may not be returning to the fascist system of government they had before, there can still be communal

projects that people working together. And I think you should write a Purge that's just about community. I said that, I said, if you were the Purge, thought like, that's the dystopia. I would want to live in no rules? What are you going to plan one day? One day you're doing crazy good like it's a great day, canceled student loans? Yeah, what would instead of the Purge? What would you call it? Then? Well, I mean it's still the Purge, like you could rules just right? But are

you copyrighting it and making it does right? W No? No, I no, I'm giving it to the people. I'm giving it to the people who've got to grow a command And now I imagine with w r U L Yes, no rules, no rule right, just right. It's also weird. But if this is Alan Moore's manifesto, he doesn't leave. He doesn't make the end feel like outful or exciting, like you want to join. Uh these I'm like this looks bad. It seems scary and bad, and it seems sort of like the people who have the avatars on

bad internet forums. I'm like, oh, I start to get it now. Maybe it's so scary and bad to you all because you're stuck in the happiness prison. Happiness is a per prison get out. But he did nothing but treat himself like a nineteenth century super wealthy aristocrat. He's surrounded by books and priceless oil paintings. Um, he's always eating like fine foods. He's lording his superior already for women who live in his house, um, and then being

contemptuous of him. I'm sorry. V to me does not read as like a forward thinking individual, and he reads as the most entitled rich man knife And he's not a proletariat. He's not like out working in the fields, like the means of production. He is, yeah, listening to his jukebox and again reading Shakespeare. He's not going to share any of those paintings with people. Those are kings.

And now there she got jan Herod his house. This supports my belief that V is gay and that he's not like a political dissent person that they threw in the camps. He's not. I don't think he's a person of color, like just in terms of the people that they were trying to exterminate in that camp and that they were experimenting on the Only thing is like assists like white gay dude. That makes sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

I think so. I think that's also a good transition for next week because I think the V that we see in the movie is I think he reads very gay to me, and I think he's very theatrical, and I like the way that character comes across from comes across. I mean, I get spoiler alert that they try to make him fall in love with e V. I don't buy it. I don't buy it. Are there any final notes on on the book that you guys want to

make before we close out? I think I'll say I think we've been like ripping apart the third book, but rightfully, but I really loved reading this book, and I think, you know, it is so compelling and is someone This is my first graphic novel I've ever read, and I think it is It brings you into a world so quickly and that feels so razor sharp and obviously much to Allen Moore's uh chagrin, extremely universal and extremely timeless and could be about any any current uh cool closing

and fascist society that I M really enjoyed it really well, said, yeah, very well said. I don't know if I can top that. So I'm gonna say something stupid, but I think that more books should have weird dudes that want to sleep with a computer that's in love with more ink. Yeah, you know, women sleeping with tech. I'm just gonna say that out yeah, yeah, okay, making an opportunity. Yeah, I feel like it would work better that way. Okay, cool, I guess we'll write that. Well. On that note, I

think they have to end this year. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week when we talk about Before Vendetta the film. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with three z s. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashle right Karama, Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f tw and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta

at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes and were produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special thanks to David Wasserman. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio