The Hate U Give (Part 3) with Angie Thomas

we got the chance to ask her. I've been really excited to bring you this episode because, as you're about to hear, Andie Thomas is brilliant and cool and nice and everything you hope for in a young adult author. This week, she'll talk to us about what it's like to see your work adapted to the screen. With books and movies, I look at it as a parent trap situations. So like you got the book Twin and the movie Twin,

and they're gonna be raised by two different parents. Book Twin is going with my publisher, movie Twins going with the film folks. Who am I? I'm like the grandparents that. Andie Thomas was born, raised and still lives in Jackson, Mississippi. She was a former teen rapper, and we we'll get into that. They You Give is her debut novel, and it is a number one New York Times bestseller. Of course, she's still a working writer, and her second novel, On

The Come Up, is on shelves. Now, Hi, everyone, this is Dani Schwartz. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club. I am joined as always by Karamadan Qua, Melissa Hunter, Tan Tran, The Wonderful Jennifer Wright is out this week, and we are joined by an incredibly special guest. I am so excited the author of The Hate You Give, Angie Thomas, the book that spent I believe a hundred and seventy four weeks at the top of the New York Times bestseller list, but that number might be out of date.

It could be even more truly a young adult phenomenon. We are so excited to have you. Thank you, Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, thank you for having me. Of course, so I am going to be sort of moderating today, and we have some questions for you. Don't worry. It's not like when trying to get you or anything friendly here. But I just wanted

to start off. I was reading The Hate You Give while simultaneously reading a book called They Can't Kill Us Until They Kill Us by Honey abdul Riki and I'm I was struck by a quote when I was reading about Chance the Rapper that made me want to ask you about it. So it says what Chance does is what the best artists of color managed to do in this setting, makes music facing his people while also leaving the door open for everyone else to try and work

their way in. And I was curious if you felt like this spoke to your experience writing about black culture and the neighborhood that you grew up in and having this book that's spent so many weeks on the New York Times bestseller list that is being read widely by non black people, do you feel like you do make art that faces your people while leaving the door open for other people to work their way in. Yeah, that's

what I hoped to do. Um. I remember very very very early in the process, like after I just signed with my publisher, me and my editor we were having a conversation and she reminded me she told me something from the beginning that like has stayed with me. And she was like, your job as a writer is not to explain things to white people. And this is a white woman, you know, this is a white woman. And I was like, Oh my god. I didn't realize how liberating just that was. But she was like, no, that's

not your job to do it. She was like, if there's something they don't understand, they can take the time to find out what it is. It's okay, you know. And and that has been kind of my mantra going forward as a writer. Um I went to craft and in literature, um Dr rudin Sam's Bishops Wants said that books are mirrors, windows or slide glass doors. And I want my books to first and foremost be mirrors for

those black kids who picked them up. I want them to see um great views of themselves that aren't distorted, and that show them who they are and help empower them. And if everybody else sees it as a window or sliding glass door, great, But my priority always as a writer is to craft the mirror. And so like, as I've become more I guess comfortable in my craft, I've stopped code switching as much in my writing. Like, I look at the hate you give, and I saw glimpses

of it there where. I was like, I kind of want to do a little more, but I'm scared that I'm going too far. But like now I'm on book three Concrete Rolls, the prequel to The Hate You Give, and it's like I stopped code switching all together, and that it is so liberating. Like you know, Maverick uses Finna in that book, and I've never had the guts to put Finna in The Hate You Give. But I'm like, I put finner in there, and they sinna find out what Finna me so dictionary it right now. I seriously

don't know what PA means. That's not a judgment. I've just been surprised. I forget. I forget what white people know, like not to put you on blast, Danta. But I remember that we were talking one time and we were talking about our friend Mike, and I said, wow, I had dinner with Mike, and he didn't realize that black

people put lotion on their whole bodies every day. You said, black people put lotion on their whole bodies every day, so much, every single day after over, our whole bodies alicious because our skins would be dry and actual other words, have learned about white people's dry skin, y'all. Not every day I have to I see so many crusty feet in the summertime that I'm like, what are y'all doing? Truly? Those songs sandals and crusty. It's like put some lotion

in some socks on. Please. I Actually I do have a question, Angie about the slang. Did you have pushed back ever from it? Sounds like your agent is super supportive, but did you ever have you know, pushback from editors or even copy editors, like on that level of people trying to to fix grammar stuff. No, I didn't, which surprised me again because, like you know, after having that conversation with my my editor, I was like, Okay, we'll

see how far this mindset goes in the process. But by like with my copy editor, um, every time she didn't understand a word or something like that, she would go to you know, urban dictionary and she'd make note of it. It was hilarious, what you know, to like part of me. When I was writing to Hate You Give, I was like, do I want to put any slang words in? Because people are always like that dates the book that dates the book. But you look at the classics,

let's look at classic novel. Nobody ever says that the stuff that's mentioned in those books dates those books, you know what I mean. So you're still yeah, exactly exactly. So I'm like, why not speak to young people right now where they are, right now and this time we're in right now. Paint a picture of right now, so that yeah, it may be dated in a few years, but hopefully the message is still powerful regardless of the words that may be used from time to time. So yeah,

I was. I was really lucky because I've heard some horror stories of pushback when it comes to um slang or African American vernacular all of those things. Like I've been given the green light to just do whatever at

this point. That's amazing. Uh. So you mentioned like the book may be dated in a few years, like we'll say it was written a few years ago or at least released a few years ago, and it still feels fresh and it's still killing it in sales, And um, I don't feel like it's stated at least not Ye, you did start writing it when you were a college

student in the I won't say the year. It's on Wikipedia, people can look it up and I'm not trying to aid you, but prior to its release in and it was a short story initially, so I wanted to know what was the process like adopting it from that short story into a full length young adult novel, and what sort of stayed and how how did you expand it or did you build around it. It was easier than I thought it would be. Um it took me. It was.

There were years between when I first wrote it as a short story and when I decided to write it as a novel. But the thing is, when I was writing it as a short story, it was part of my senior project UM in college, in my creative writing program. And my problem was I kept making the short story too long. So like my professor, he's an author, and like he pulled me aside one day, and you got to imagine this older white Southern man pulling me aside,

and he's like, Darling is supposed to be short. That's why it's called a short story. Because I was adding all of these characters, all of these plot lines, all this stuff, and he was like, he's supposed to be short, and I was like, yeah, but I want to do I want to He was like, I get that you can turn it into a novel one day, but right now, I just need so when the time came, you know, when I was like, Okay, maybe I should go back to that um and do that and turn it into

a novel. It was kind of easy because I had all those things and those storyline ideas that I wanted to include, and all those characters that I wanted to include that I couldn't before, and so now I was given that opportunity to do that. So the main thing was um making sure that the core message of the book remained the same, and for me, that is that young black p both have voices and that they matter. And that's what it was for me when it was a short story, and that's what I wanted to keep

in the novel form. So it wasn't too hard because I i again, I was limiting myself when I was writing it as a short story. UM. So in that sense, I was lucky that I had a whole lot of ideas to work with. Can I ask what the focus of the short story was? Yeah, yeah, the short story.

It was actually I did like four different short stories to make up the senior project, So it was like one was from Khalil's perspective, one was from Khalil's little brother's perspective, one was from stars perspective, and one was from a perspective of another little girl in the neighborhood who was friends with Khalil's little brother. And so I wanted to show how this world and how this this this act of violence affected all of them in some

kind of way, you know. For for Khalil's little brother, what this the neighborhood looked like through his eyes, you know. And I had to go back to when I was a little kid, and what and and the fact that I didn't realize my neighborhood was as dangerous as it was. So like my imagination saved me in a lot of ways. Like I you know, for me, I pictured the drug add excess dragons in the neighborhood, and I pictured you know, I said that the drug house that we were supposed to,

you know, avoid that was like the dragon layer. And I had this whole thing in my head. So I pulled that into the story. Um and like the but the main thing was showing at that point even was the idea that these kids who were in this community that so often ridden off, um, they have value, they have beauty, they have stories that deserve to be told, you know, I kind of even at that point, I pulled on that concept of roses growing in concrete. That's

what I wanted that neighborhood to represent. I wanted Garden Heights to be the concrete and we're talking about the roses, and I want at the show the beauty of the roses. So that was the theme that was in the senior project and in those short stories that has now found its way into my books. So here I am, all these years later, still doing a college school project. If you have a good idea, take it and run with it. And I would say that a lot of people think

it's a good idea. Have you spoken to the professor who said that it needs to be a short story since then? Oh? Yeah, I have. I have. I've spoken to him. He's come to all of my signings in Jackson and he's like, so where am I getting the check? And I'm like, he's joking. He's always joking when he

says but I'm like, yeah, that's some funny. So from turning it from a short story into a novel with stars perspective immediately the first one that you went to in terms of wanting to grow out this story, Yeah, yeah, that was like for me, she was always the main character in my mind. Um. And and I think part of it was because maybe because I put some of my own experience in that character, my own viewpoint, Um, in that character, you know, she's navigating these two worlds.

And there I literally was at that time in college, navigating two worlds. I went to a mostly white, upper class, private Christian school in conservative Mississippi. Exactly, I just did that that combination of words is that's fine. That was my that was my college. And and I was the only black student in my creative writing program. I was the first black student to graduate from the creative writing program.

And oh, you know, being the only black person, I had all those experiences, like when you're talking about slavery in class, people looking at me, look at I had that experience in high school when we were reading Huck Finn because my white teacher would say the N word when she was reading it, and every time she said it, every student in class turned and looked at either me or the other black girl in class. And we always

sat on opposite end, so it's funny. You could see their heads whipping back and forth, and are they looking at you? Like I'm so sorry or are they looking at you like, what are you think? What's she gonna do? What's she gonna do? It's yeah, it's it's a universal experience for black people in primarily white institutions, having that moment where when blackness comes up in a discussion in a white space, what is this one black person's reaction

going to be? So I feel that Ms Thomas I yes, yes, yes, that was like that was me and she when it came to them turning the book into the movie, which was then such a so much attention I feel like was on you and the process, Well, I mean, what was that like? I feel like also I saw people on Twitter thinking that you were personally casting it. That

was that was wild. I don't think like there's so many misconceptions about the film process with books, and it's like, you know, everybody thinks they know, thinks they're an expert and they and they really have no idea just how everything happened or anything. Like for me, the movie process started really early, like the Hey you give I signed with my agent and I tweeted him in June two

thou fifteen, he signed me as a client. Like in August we went on some mission November, and the book was sold in November, and by December of two thousand fifteen, I was on phone calls with Hollywood producers and studios because there was all this buzz about the book from publishing because it was this big thirteen House auction and everybody was talking about that, and so it got into Hollywood and like, yeah, December, I say, December two thousand

and fifteen, I had my first phone conversation with George Tillman Jr. Who ended up being a director. Um, and like, that's early, you know, that's that's I mean, I just I hadn't even signed the contract yet for the book. That's how early we're talking. When I talked to George January two thousand sixteen, Amandela Stenberg was given a copy. Again, I hadn't even signed a contract for the book yet. I was still waiting on the paperwork. They were still

getting all the negotiations done, you know. Um with that, and like Mandela read it and was like, I love this star is me in so many ways. I'd love to be attached to play this character. And so we were talking about bam bam bam. Like within a few months, I go from working on something by myself too, I got a publisher, and now I got a film studio, a director and an actress. Attack the wildest thing in

my life. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break. So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for my Heart Radio. What was it like handing over the book to a screenwriter? I know, like, you know, you've created such a rich world in your book and tapestry of characters, and obviously it's a script is so different. So what was your relationship?

I know she just since past, but with the screenwriter and that process of handing over this baby, you know, yeah, that was that was a scary process, I have to admit, because you know, with with books and movies, I look at it as a parent trap situation. And you got like, you know, these two kids, so like you got the book Twin and the movie Twin, and they're gonna be raised by two different parents. Book Twin is going with

a publisher, Movie Twins going with the film. Folks, who am I I'm like the grandparents that you know, you're the British grandfather exactly. I'm the British grandfather, So I you know, I had to trust them in that process and understand the kids are gonna look different, their fraternal twins not identical. They're gonna look different, but the genetic

start the same. The one thing I will say about Audrey was, Um, she from the very beginning, she involved me in the process, Like my first trip on an airplane. I'd never flown in my life. My first trip on an airplane was in two thousand and sixteen when I flew out to Los Angeles to meet her and George and all the people at Fox. Two thousand and I sat down with Audrey and George for like an entire day at a restaurant talking about every single character, every

single plot line in the book. Um. You know, now, I will say, and you know, people probably gonna look at me weird or come at me for saying this, and this is no disrespect to the dead, But I will say, looking back on it, part of me still wishes that a black woman had been involved as a screenwriter from the beginning. We did have a black woman come on later. Um Tina Maybury. She came on later,

and she reworked some stuff in the script. Um. Because the thing about Audrey was God rest her soul, like she had never watched the Fresh Fresh Prints, and so I'm like, okay, so we got we got now. I will say she was willing to learn blah blah blah. But the way you know things with Hollywood and all that work out at that time, I'm still learning as I go. All right, I will say that I'm still learning as I go. I'm still learning the process how

things work. So I wish I could have been a little more vocal at that time and said let's get a black woman in from the get go. You know what I mean? Um, I do wish that. Now. That's the thing about that is I learned from that because here I am now a second book on the come up. We have black woman screenwriter, k oh, you're gunning from this is us. Um. We have a black woman studio head Am Barrassberry at Paramount who's overseeing the project. You have me as a producer this time, not just in name,

but I actually actually working on it this time. And I will say I can't say who yet, um, but we will have a black and director as well, So you like nod for us. I can't do that and just put it, just just blink it in more so in your eyes. We love we love intel. I may let y'all know after the we won't tell anybody. It can't be recorded because I don't want any that I did it. But no, of course he doesn't. You know what, we don't even tell us. We will not we will

not ask at all. Yeah, yeah, no, no, so no, you know, I will say like I was a baby in the early in that first film process, I was still learning. I was storry ey, surprised that anybody wants to make something out of my book. And now I'm like, okay, I know a little more. I got a little more safe. Oh, I got a little more power, and I was I told Amber Raspberry at Paramount, I was like, look, I know that I have to pick my battles, but this

is one hell I want to die. I'm willing to die on and as I want a black woman director. And that was like, originally George was going to direct it, and George is my big brother. I love him, but something came up scheduling conflicts, so now he can't do it. I was like, okay, so since George can't do it, here's the Hill, I'm willing to die and I want a black woman director, So I got I feel like

that's a good hell. We were going to ask specifically how it felt to have a white screenwriter, and I'm so glad that you brought it up, and it didn't feel like we were like attacking anybody. And not to speak ill of the dead, but it is a specific experience and not having seen The Fresh Prince is something that I can't even imagine. Um, and watch the Fresh Friends people, Chris watches The Press Prince. But you had

mentioned Amantha Stenberg and Uh, they were very controversially. Not it wasn't controversial for the casting, but there was a sort of firestorm after they were cast in The Hunger Games. Uh. And I think it's interesting because there was a newspaper article about you and about your book, and it has this beautiful picture of you on it. Yes, yes, my

mom has a printer. I'm living large. And in this article by Adriana Ramirez, they talk about how your book could be to some considered a sort of disk topic book in the same realm as The Hunger Games and UH and Maze Runner and all these books that have these huge film adaptations that the kids are very into, but it just happens to be set in reality. How do you feel about that classification and characterization? Yeah, and I will go back to the casting thing because I

don't mind talking about that too. You know, there was controversy with our film and Manpla being cast that star because you know, the cover of the book shows a dark skinned girl and here's a manned love by racial and we're talking about colorism. Colorism is real, and how I would I will not say it's not real, let me put that out there, but I will say that in this instance, a Mandela was cast before the cover

was made. And it goes back to that whole thing of book Baby versus movie baby, so it was like they acted sometimes that's if it was two different things. So you know, that's just that. I will say that. But no, colorism is real in Hollywood. Um, And I will point I want to put this out there too. I am hoping for a darker skinned black girl to

play Brianna. All right, now, now as far as that goes, you know, hearing that when I read that article, well, I didn't read the article because I rarely read articles about me. My mom very My mama reads them, which is worse. Uh no, but like her, we have a whole lot of family out in l A. So one of her cousins called her and she was like, girl, and she's in l a time, let me send you this article. And so my mom was reading and when

I heard that part, you know, I get it. But it's also heartbreaking because that's kind of insinuating that black kids live in an entirely different world than the rest of us. And that's honestly, in some ways the reality. Like in the past few weeks, as we've had in months, as we've had these conversations about racism here in America and police brutality and all of these things, I'm starting to realize that a majority of white people have been

living in an entirely different country than me. Because it's like, y'all don't notice this stuff, y'all haven't been y'all don't realize this stuff. Like my folks had the conversation with me as a young kid in the nineties about what to do if I'm stopped by a cop and you're like, oh, this is new, No, it's not, you know, So in a lot of ways, young Black people in this country

have been living in a dystopian world. Why everybody else has been living in what they feel is if a utopia, you know, And and we don't talk about the fact that there are multiple types of America, you know, and and and I'm at the point I don't want equality. I want equity. I want equity for my young people, you know. So yeah, I think if you're not used to knowing these things, if these things are brand new to you, absolutely to hate you give feels like a dystopia.

But for a lot of young people, it's just their reality. It's the America that they know, America that they've been given. And and that's that's that's a problem, that's absolute problems. So yeah, it broke my heart. But I realized, yep, that's pretty right on the money. Was there something sort

of bitter sweet? I'm not even sweet, but like this summer, I feel like with such a reckoning for so much of America to realize it, to to be talking about black lives matter publicly and and have it become sort of a massive movement with mainstream support, like among the suburban you know, like the poles, among like suburban people now It was that sort of bitter sweet being like you wrote this book in two thousand seventeen, Like why

are we only talking about this now? Yeah? It was you know, you know, I'll admit like, ever since Mr Floyd lost his life and Brianna Taylor lost her life and Ahmad are Very lost his life, people have been turned into my book more. Which is it hurts, you know, like my my sales one week, we're just through the roof, and yeah, people want to read and learn more. But

here we are. You know, we've been yelling black lives matter for years now, and some of y'all are just starting to understand it is not an attack on you, you know, like, okay, now we got the basics side of the way, can we get into more of this? You know, Like it's it's just it's just getting to the point where it feels like that phrase is starting to not be as taboo, and for the longest it felt so taboo, like I'm saying black lives matter, I'm

making a political statement. No, I'm literally telling you my life matters, right, Why does that have to be a political statement? So it's bitter sweet, But then at the same time, it feels like, all right, that's the that's the light work. What's next? You know. Yeah, it's cool that New York you know that the mayor wanted to paint Black Lives Matter in front of the Orange Man's Tower. Great, but all right, so what are you doing about police

brutality in New York? It's not and all of this stuff that has set so many people in New York, specifically that are black and brown people back for years and years and years exactly. Yeah, it's a lot of very lovely lip service. I feel like, yes, a lot of lip service. You know. I'm here in Mississippi and they just finally changed the flag we wanted to you are from Mississippi. Yeah, so Mississippi, for those of you who do not know, has the bars and stars as

part of its state flag. And well, I said bars and stars specifically, because there are several different Confederate flags and the bars and stars is not one of the main ones. I just think it's funny that people have really held on to this one and they're like, this is the one that is the most racist. Um, but Mississippi has the bars and stars as part of its state flag, and they are now finally asking should we

remove this? I mean, there have been people who have been asking for a long time, hey, why does this have to be part of our state flag? But now with everything going on in the country and eyes on them and Confederate flags being banned in like NASCAR, which was just the most shocking reveal of that NASCAR was gonna be the like, the most progressive in action organization out of everything. And we all just learned about Bubba Wallace and we're all here to support him through everything

he does forever. But I think that how do you feel, as a Mississippian with this flag and having grown up with this flag, seeing it finally addressed, but also wondering why nobody was listening to the voices beforehand calling for it to be removed. You know, the thing about Mississippi, and it's something that I've realized now as an adult, is that I grew up not realizing that some some things were as bad as they are. It's not until you go other places or you meet people who aren't

from here that you realize, oh, that's oh wow. Yeah, you know, like the shock of it hit you. Like with the flag, you know, I remember when they first did the vote back in two thousand one. Um, I was like eleven, twelve years old, and I remember the conversations around it before that, I didn't realize the flag was a bad thing. I knew it was bad. I knew the Confederate stuff was bad. I knew all that was bad. I knew it was you know, associated with

slavery and et cetera. But it wasn't until people started pointing out how bad it was that I realized not one, not just that it was bad, but too that it can be changed because it was normal to me. It was normal to me that my state had a flag that told me I was not as equal as everybody else. And when you realized that was the mindset I had as a kid, thinking, you know, this state has told me that I don't have as much value as it's white citizens. And I grew to accept that. That's how

a lot of young people here have felt. And it's not okay. So when you know, when the conversations have been ramping up about the flag my entire adult life, there have been fights against that flag, and and nobody wanted to listen to. Politicians didn't want to listen. Even our newest governor when he took office, he was like, I'm not gonna change it. Now, here's the thing, and I'm glad it's changing. Yeah, but I also recognized that it did not come down to black or white. It

was about green. It was totally about green. When you have somebody pointed it out on Twitter, they were like, you know, another Mississippian was like, of course the government here finally changed the flag. They had the three main staples of Southern living that came at him, that is college football, the Baptist and Walmart like trend right there. You know, you have these three coming at them saying we're not gonna bring things there, We're gonna stop doing

this there it became about money. And then it just came out within the past week that Google is now building one of their first UM customer service centers in Mississippi within the next few years. Oh, I know exactly why y'all change the flag. Probably threatened to not come here, so it came down to green. And that's feel like what's happening with the Washington football team right now that acts strong arming them and it's like it should be changed.

But I feel personally, for me, I want that change to also come from a place of oh, this is bad, not just oh I will face irrec irreparable consequences if I don't do this thing that people are forcing me to do. And like with Rhode Island, the state of Rhode Island, I don't know if y'all heard, but the full name of the State of Rhode Island is the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. And they first voted to change that when I was a college student

in Rhode Island. And that's when I found out. I was like, oh, I don't like that at all, and yeah yeah, and they are finally changing it. But the reason the vote didn't go through in two thousand and ten when I was a college student was because of money. It was because they didn't want to pay to change all of the official stuff. And they were like, well, who really cares, And it's like, well, I care, and I'm not planning. I was not planning on being a

permanent resident of a State of Rhode Island. But if people feel unsafe or unwelcome, I feel like that matters. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing we're here, what the flag is? Now? All of these politicians are saying what the right things. They're saying what they should have been saying all along of yeah, it promotes division, we need a flag in Unified. I'm like, oh, so you knew that the whole time you've been pushing back on

changing it. You knew this. You knew this. It's just now it took money coming into the fold, you know. So it's it's gonna be interesting to see how this goes and how it turns out. Um, we get to vote in November on a new state flag design, which will fascinating. Um. But you know there are people who are spitfire mad, as we say, because they didn't get to vote on whether we keep the original flag or not. So let him be mad, I'm saying, let him be mad.

I was like, I want if there was no pandemic right now, I would have held a flag burning party. I would have burned that suffer down several times in my yard. Like it would have been literally changing the subject slightly back to the book. I was curious, obviously, as a as a y a novel, you know you can't get into the full complexity of certain issues, and for many readers, you know, it is a first exposure

to like that sort of first hand trauma. But I was curious about the character of Carlops and making him a cop, and your decision process and making him a cup, and and any pushedback or thoughts that you have on that, because especially now, there's this idea going around that you know, the institution of policing is so fundamentally broken that you can't change it from within the system. And I was

just interested in your perspective on that. Yeah, I will say, you know, my my perspective on has evolved over time. You know, we're all learning, we're all growing now. When I wrote the character Carlos, originally I wrote him um with my own family members in mine who are police officers. When I first got to talk about what to do if I've ever stopped by a cop, it was from my cousin, who was a cop um because he knew some of his fellow officers tended to abuse their powers.

So with the character Carlos, I wanted to show a black cop and some of what they deal with because a lot of them will tell you, you know, well, inside of the uniform, I'm seeing as a sellout. Outside of the uniform, I'm still a suspect. You know, I remember reading recently a Twitter thread of a black police officer who was investigating a case outside at night with a flashlight, going around somebody's backyard with a flashlight, trying

to find bullet shells or something like that. And nine one one gotta call of a suspicious black man in a backyard with a flashlight. You know, so we're dispatching officers right now, they're already there. So like, through that character, I wanted to address that. But I also wanted to show an officer who holds his fellow officers accountable, because you know, at that point for me, that was one

of the biggest things I wanted. Now as I've learned more, and you know, and and and and read more, researched more, you know, I'm I'm all about you know, abolishment, Um, I'm I'm I believe we can have a police free world as possible. Um, I'm all about you know, putting at least starting out with defunding the police and putting those funds into other things that benefit communities such as housing,

social services, etcetera, etcetera. Now, you know, I think too with the character movie wise, you know, there were a lot of conversations about the character in the movie, and specifically the conversation he has with star Um where he's you know, talking about what goes through an officer's mind, and people like oh that that you know, that was you guys explaining cops again, Like we need that perspective again.

Now for me, I would say for me, I saw it as him coming to recognize his own internal bias, you know, him realizing, Yeah, if it was a black person, I've been so conditioned that even as a black man, I would probably shoot first, which is sad, but that's so true. I mean, let's look at Atlanta for a second. Most of the Atlanta Police Department is black, and they're still dealing with police brutality because we're talking about a root issue, uh, internal bias that's just been that has

poison this entire system. So if you're talking about something at the root, you gotta chop it down, you know what I mean. So my perspective has definitely changed. But that character was one that for me at the time, I just wanted to show this what a black cop deals with in the sense of being a suspect and a sellout, but also him coming to recognize his fellow officers need to be held accountable, and to a degree. In the book, we see him come to realize that

there's a systemic problem here. You know. You know, a lot of people tell me Carlos was an uncle Tom. Look y'all, Carlos gotta grow too. Yeah, I wasn't like there was a lot of growth Carlos. And the that I did miss in the movie that I didn't join seeing Academy Award winner common in the film, I only

re him as Academy Award winner comic. But I do think it's important and people need to recognize that, Like, he's a character, and you write characters, and everything that a character says in your book is not necessarily something that you Andrew Thomas as a human being believes like there are just characters that exists. Oh yeah, our own flaws different from your character. Well, and it does feel like usually the cop that we see that has arc

regarding racism as a white cop. So it is, you know, a different perspective, and I appreciated that it was all through the perspective of Star In the end, thank you, thank you. Yeah, this is Popcorn Book Club. We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club. I did want to talk about Carlos again really quickly. Um, just because uh, as I was reading the book, I didn't look at the casting for

the film outside of before I finished the book. I knew that Amanda was playing star obviously, but I want to bring it back to tourism and talk about how, you know, in the black community, we have light skinned people, we have dark skinned people. Sometimes you see somebody and

you're like, oh, she had real light skin. Um. And it's funny because as I was reading it, I was like, I feel like, Lisa and Carlos are light skinned, and did you have any sort of decision process in who you were making the light skinned characters and who you were making the dark skinned characters? Because when I saw it and I saw that Common was playing off with Carlos, I was like, that works for me. I understand that choice. Yeah.

You know, it's funny too because yeah, in the book it's mentioned that, uh, Carlos and Lisa, their mom refers to them as high yellow. I did, yeah, I thought that before I read it, and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. There I tried not to overthake it too much. But there were times where, you know, I thought about the with Lisa and Carlos, especially um and and their upbringing and and how they're perceived in the neighborhood, and but also with Carlos, how he perceived the neighborhood as

a light scanned person. I'm gonna say, sometimes light skinned folks, you know, uh, can it can be a little how should I put it? With Carlos specifically, with this character, we see he's got light scanned privilege. Okay, sometimes people just be acting light scan exactly exactly, and that's like

with Carlos. I definitely thought of him as one of these light skinned brothers who you know, he's like, well, if you just talk a certain way, if you present yourself a certain way, it'll be okay, not recognizing bro. You at times get privileged because you're not seen in the same way that Maverick would be seen because Maverick is darker skin and when he enters spaces, he's already got a little more against him. Name you will because

you are light skinned brother, you know. So I definitely thought of that when I was, especially with those two characters, was crafting them because you know, Carlos, Carlos still even in the book, he doesn't recognize that, he doesn't recognize that he's not seen as a threat nearly as much as Mavery. And you know, he's the kind of character would be like, well if he wasn't in the game where But no, sir, it's more to it than just that. So I definitely thought of that when I was correcting

those two. One change between the movie and the book that I was curious about some changes, like DeVante, You're like that you just can't fit everything into a film. There's just you know, questions all the time. So mad at me that Defonte wasn't in the movie. I'm like, y'all, it's okay, Dfonte and Nanna are in the book. Yeah. But one change I was curious about is at the end of the film they decided to stay in Garden Heights where the book they leave was who what was

that decision process? Like, you know that one It was interesting how that came about because in the movie, I will say, like in the movie, originally they were going to move. Um, they were going to move in the movie originally um, And what happened, as we say, what had happened was, Um, they started doing screenings of the film with test audiences, and one thing that test audiences were saying was, we've become so attached to the neighborhood, and it seems as if they're so attached, it doesn't

make sense that they leave. And I was like, now, because the big difference with the book and the movie is it's a little more focused on in the book at times. You know, for Lisa and Maverick, that's kind of their storyline. She wants to leave, he wants to stay, and he has to come to the realization that where you live does not define who you are, all right, So we don't see it as much in the movie.

Like there's a scene in the movie where Lisa and Maverick are like in the bedroom and it's mentioned and they kind of go and Lisa tell tells, Um, you know, where you live does not define who you are, and but and yeah, that conversation happens, but it's not still as focused on as it is in the book. So I guess the audiences didn't, um, weren't as convinced about it. So yeah, yeah, but you know, for me, that was

my own struggle. You know, I could. I could see it going either way with them in the book, But like, that was my own struggle once I started, you know, making getting financially secure as an author, it was like do I stay in my neighborhood or do I leave? You know? And and that was I think a lot of black people who if you've ever lived in a neighborhood like Guarden Heights and you get the opportunity to leave, you may deal with us struggle as well. So that

was definitely my own but um, yeah it worked. I think it worked well in the book, and the decision that was made in the movie worked as well for it. Yeah, I definitely see that. I feel like in the book, we do get this fear that Maverick has it being seen as like up to your Soddy for leaving, and it doesn't translate on screen in the narrative that was created in the screen, Like you said, their fraternal twins, and it's like, Okay, I see how now you've said

test audiences were one of the major factors. I definitely see how that could be a factor sort of in relation to that you ultimately did not leave Garden Heights on the come up and now Concrete Rose, You're staying in Garden Heights, and I find that so interesting, Um, that you're creating such a such a tapestry there of

all these characters. Did you know that when you were finishing the Um, when you were finishing the hat you give, that you wanted to return to Garden Heights And I know it's not a real place, but it's based on where you grew up. Yeah, you know, Um, I did know that I would at least go back for one more book. I'm going to tell y'all something a little

insider info. In the end of like the Hate You Give Um and the riots and everything, there's a point where Star seven, Chris and Davonte hop into a truck with this guy and there's a girl in the back whose name is Brief. Originally that was going to be Brief from on the come up, but I ended up changing some stuff, and so now that ate that Breeze another Breed because there could be two black girls named Breed and the same. But like I knew I was

going to go back to the neighborhood. I knew my second book was going to be about hip hop because I was like, what do you do after this, you know, what do you do in the Garden Heights after this? And I thought a lot about hip hop and how

it started out. You know, you're talking about an art form and started in the Bronx during the Bronx burnings when all of these buildings were being destroyed and young people were facing all of these hardships in the Bronx, And somehow, some way from the ashes of that, they created an art form that is now the biggest selling music genre in the world. You know, it crosses color lines,

acrosses languages. Hip Hop start by teenagers in a basement, you know, during all of that, And I was like, how do young how with young people in the neighborhood like that find their voices after something like that, or find some hope. And I wanted to use hip hop as a tool for that, So I knew I wanted to go back then. Like, honestly, I had no intention of writing any more books about the Carters or anything

after the Hate You Give. It was like, while I was on set of the movie talking to Russell Hornsby, who did a phenomenal jobs and was freaking robbed of awards. I'm just gonna say that I second that. No, he was incredible, and you know, we didn't talk about him much in our previous episode. So I'm glad you brought him up because he was incredible Maverick. He was just he embodied that role in a way that was phenomenal. I'm sorry I cut you off. Please continue. No, no, no,

you're good. You're good. Though I could talk about Russell horns Be all day like he as Maverick, Like he just he brought it that role. He blessed us all with that um you know, but talking to him while he was becoming the character, and he's asking me questions about the character, but also he's transforming into the character.

This is what this is one thing that people don't know about, Like Russell when he did Maverick, Like Russell had a whole walk from Maverick, Like he walked different when he was Maverick, and like he he talked different when he was Maverick. His whole persona changed. Like when he walked on set, it was like, that's not Russell, that's Maverick. That's the kind of actor he is. And so seeing him as the character and talking to him and him asking me questions about the character, and stuff

like that. It made me a little more take a little closer look at the character myself and go, huh, let me figure out that. Let me see if I can answer that. So, you know, then going on tour and being around people asking me all the time of about him, that character more than any other character. I gotta say, like, grown women love them some Mavericks. Also like a dream husband that relationship, and like such a tender dad too. It's like, yeah, you see y'all are

doing it right now, dad, Oh my god. Like you know, with the kids, they're all like Khalil seven blah blah blah. But the grown women they're like, oh my god, Maverick, I'll need me a Maverick like that got a fan club. And so I was like, I want to explore that

character more. And that's when I I made the decision, Like after the film, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go back one more time the Garden Heights and explore Maverick and his story as a teenager and see how he became the person that we know and the hate you give. So this will probably be my last book, and Garden Heights, um, my fourth book is going to be said in Mississippi, which is to write about. Oh yeah, I got a whole lot to write about here.

I'm like, after this book, they're gonna put me out. They're gonna make you governor. That's can I ask quickly? And was there ever a moment that you had you thought about putting Garden Heights as a real like city or was it always did you always wanted to be fictional so that it could be more universal in the way that you approached that story. You know, there was a time where I was like, I should probably put this somewhere. But the problem was one I wasn't fond

of putting it in Jackson. And that was just because I I hated my status. I have such a rocky relationship with my hometown, my home state, and I was like, I'm not putting it there. I'm not giving them that I'm not so like, I was like, no, i should put it in Atlanta, even though I've never been to

it about Atlanta. So like, eventually I was like, you know what, no, just don't give a certain city or state because I felt like, you know, I wanted to put a show that this could be anywhere, you know, and and The beauty of it is I go different places and people like, this is Chicago, isn't it? Or this is South this is South l A. Isn't it? This is Atlanta, isn't it? And you know, Mississippi folks, this is Jackson right. You know? Yeah, it became an easy decision. Uh so you have been built as a

former tea and rapper. Is there a place where we can listen to your music? No? I had my mom to destroy all. I think she's got like one that she's holding us blackmail against mom. I took everything down. I was not it. I was not it at all. But speaking of your mom, I know that, Um, in this book, there is a lot of parental sort of counter education or a supplemental education that happens about the Black Panthers and about black history. And uh, I know

that I got some of that. I know. My mom was doing my hair one time, which, as you know, takes many hours, and I was like, I want to watch Anastasia And she said, okay, can I watch a movie first and then we'll watch Anastasia after? And I said, oh, okay, that seems fair. I'm I'm a I'm a reasonable person. And she made me watch all of Roots, the original

miniseries in One City, My Hair, just one movie. But you know, I'm glad she did it because I feel like I was really resistant to any additional education, Like why do I need to know this? Why do I need a children's book about Jesse Owens? Or why do I need a children's book about Charles Drill. Why can't

I read the same books as all my friends? So I just wanted to ask you about them, the process in terms of deciding to show that, and how you showed that, and how you brought in the Nation of Islam briefly, and the Black Panthers and Hip Newton and all of that. Yeah, you know, it was important because those things are not discussed enough in schools. And I remember as I was working on The Hate You Give,

I had this thought. I was like, what if this ends up being required reading in some school, Oh, let's throw in some history stuff so they can know the real deal, you know, like with the Black Panthers, there's so many misconceptions, like young people don't know that the reason they have free breakfast. Yeah, the Black Panthers, you know,

you know they've been villainized. And and then dr King has been sanitized, so you know, we we don't, we don't our Our kids are not being equipped enough through the history books. Um, they're they're not being given the real deal. And I was like, okay, you know, if I'm keeping it real in this book, I want that. And and then crafting Maverick. Back to Maverick, you know, I was like, who is this guy? He would be

into that stuff. That's him, you know, that's that's his m O in a lot of ways, that's that's where, that's his um, his avenue of wokeness, you know, radical blackness. And so I wanted to pull that in. But I wanted to show too that there are so many different um there have been so many different movements and movements that have looked different ways within just the black community alone. You know, yeah, you had the silvil rights movement, but you also had the Black Power movement. You had all

of these different things. These are not new battles that we've been fighting. You know, when the Black Panthers pinned the Ten Point Program, they were saying, we want an end to police brutality. Back then, we're still asking for it now. So I wanted to show young people this is not new. We've been fighting, We're gonna keep fighting. So it was definitely a portant to include all of that.

And you know, I'm working now and fifth book as well, which is like middle grade fantasy, and I'm pulling black history into that in so many different ways. I'm like, the kids are gonna learn something. I got a whole reading list for my niece. Now, azing, Um, Dana, I know you had a question. Oh yeah, Well now I'm just saying, like, thank god that you have to give every Haley in the world every copy of your book. I could tell you Haley is based on a real person.

Does she know? Does she know? Okay, So she read the hate you give and she was like, oh my god, Angie was someone like this. I knew that was gonna be the rest classic Hanley classic. Yeah, and she goes, oh my god, who And I was like, look in the mirror. So we have not spoken since, and I'm sure she has texted you. I am so sorry that you felt that way. I am so sorry you reacted badly. The apologies from Haley, We're just chef. My mom caused them.

Apolloize Pola Lie. If you apola line, you're not really apologize and that's a lie. So is Maya based on someone too? Or yes, yes, yes, yes, So a lot of my college classmates made their way into the And the funny thing is, like of all the characters in the books, nobody recognized themselves, but the person who the character of forty Ounce is based on and fort made who are drunk, nobody else recognized themselves except where they

really drunk. Can I ask was there a Chris? Yes, yes, that's all I was saying, Okay, that Chris was not woke either, that Chris was in a freaking coma as far as woke miss goes. I like. I like that Chris in the book tried to learn and tried to get and tried to know star. I thought that it was nice that, like Okay, there was growth and the test was made. I will say I would not encourage any of my home girls today Chris. What if what if he looked like hot archy grandma? Because movie Chris

is worse than book Chris in my opinion. Let me just say that character like gave me the most headaches, like not just as a writer, but even with the film process. Because I will talk about it a little bit. But like as a writer, it was hard to write Chris because I've never been a great, rich white boy, you know, and like I was like, how do I write this character? Was hard? And then you know, with

the film process, we had to recast the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like the original young man who played Chris Um, I won't say his name. Um, he's learning and growing. Bless his heart, you know, I have nothing against him, but you know, videos came out um where he had been using the N word and stuff like that and making

racist jokes. And we had just finished filming the movie and had to recast the character, reshoot the scenes, and Mandela had to go through because the scenes with Chris are all hard scenes had to go through that again with Um, with kJ and all that. So it was just like it was hard. So I have to admit, like the process with Chris in the book and in the film was just so much hardship, so hard, and so much Trump for me that that's why you do

not see any white boys. And on the cover there are enough the white boys can get roles in other movies. They've been they've been. Yeah. Can I ask Aye what you're reading this summer? What am I reading? Um? I let's see, I just finished the book Grown by Tiffany D. Jackson. I'm gonna shout about that book from beginning to end. Um. It is about a young black girl who has dreams of being a singer and this superstar R and B singer takes her under his wing and it becomes some

really dark stuff happening. And it's really about it's loosely based on the R. Kelly stuff. Wow. So but what Tiffany does is she shows us the ways in which black girls and their innocence is often stolen and the ways in which we as people, um even take that from them in our heads, ourselves. Like, she plays a whole my game with the reader in this book. And you're gonna put it down. And once you put that book down, you're gonna end up checking yourself on some things.

I kid you not so like Grown by Tiffany D. Jackson. Read it, Read it, read it, absorb it. I'm still thinking about that book. Thank you. I feel like that maybe is a is a good place to end on. But I did have, uh one question, is there because you have obviously been promoting this book for such a

long time and talking about the hate you give? Is there one question that you never want to answer again that you just want to say, like, please do not ask me because I've always people have to do so many interviews and so many q and a s. Is there something you are super tired of? Um, let's see. The one question that I think I am tired of is so, what do you want white people to take from this book? The book? Like, I don't know if I'm supposed to answer that. It's like, that's not my job.

So I think that's the one question that like, if nobody ever asked me that again, I would be totally fine. He wrote a whole book, Just read the book exactly. Whatever they take from it is whatever they take. I'm I'm afraid. I'm afraid for you that people will continue to ask that question about lawyer books. My mom always has this quote from Tony Morrison that she likes to give where somebody, somebody in an interview asked, Tony Morrison, you could sum this book up into one sentence, what

would you say about it? And she's like, well, I wrote the whole book, so I didn't have to write a sentence like I wrote a whole funk I know that we are running out of time, and we want to thank you so much for coming. But I also do want to address something that we have been very argumentative about, the mac and cheese debate. I am on the side of mac and cheese. Is a side dish. You do not bread crumbs on it, and you make it in the oven like, okay, team team, side dish. Oven,

throw out some bread crumbs. That's why that texture texture it on the hat. Okay, But if you do the cheese right, you don't need the bread crumbs for texture, like the best mac and cheese has like that cheesy crystal top. Like you don't need bread crumbs, like you won't won't bread crumbs, you won't miss bread crumbs. I gotta try. I gotta try better mac and cheese. I think you don't do it right. I told them to try Patti Labelle's over the Rainbow mac and cheese recipe.

That's when I go to go to recipe at Thanksgiving, like, only here's the thing. Only make it once a year, because otherwise you will die. I'll do it no more to that, because you won't be moving. You will be so lethargic. No, it's a once a year thing Patty Labille over the rainbow mac and cheese like you will not want to break crome near it. All right, next time, next time you're in l A and all of this pandemic is over, we will get together and I will work my ass off and make that perfect mac and

cheese a good deal. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Dana Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Dana Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Wright Karama, Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tian Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to

David Wasserman. Next week, we are going back to Lovecraft Country. The television series is out now on HBO, and Popcorn Book Club is diving back in to talk about the changes they made from the book to the TV show, what we think of the TV show as a whole. There are c g I monsters of plenty. We have plenty to talk about. You can't wait to see you there. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio. See you next Week.