The Hate U Give (Part 2)

during a routine traffic stop. Now, we recorded this discussion a few weeks ago, and I want to say that it's heartbreaking that this work of fiction fromen is so immediately relevant in our world, and that it's so relevant again right now this week, and it shouldn't be. But as long as this I am proud to be having this discussion alongside these amazing women. And just to make it very clear, Popcorn Book Club says black lives matter.

So last week, Starr had just gone to the police station to give her testimony on what had happened, and Karama picks it up from there. She goes to Khalil's funeral, where she is reminded of the funeral for Natasha and how they both seem like mannekins and their coffins and they don't have the life in them that they had in life. And there's a lot of talk about Khalil's

dimples and how in that coffin he doesn't have those. Uh. And at the funeral, uh, the king lords come, led by King and they leave a gray bandana on his body, which is a sign that you are a member of the king Lords, because gray is one of the king lord colors and uh. Ms Rosalie, who is Kail's grandma, freaks out understandably, so grabs the bandana, throws it at King and tells them to get out. And Ayisha Uh.

Then Ayisha, who is Seven's mom and uh and Kenya's mom then says, oh, like, why are you being such a bit basically and we offered to pay for this funeral, and then Mrs Rosalie calls her a whore, which is not gracious, But no one in this instance is being gracious, and I think Ms. Rosalie has the most reason not to be at this point. Uh. And then that's when we sort of find out a little bit more about Aisha and Mav and find out that Maverick, who is both seven and stars father, did hire her as a

sex worker and that is how seven was conceived. So and it was after a night that he fought with Lisa, So he was with Lisa first and then he ends up involved with Aisha for one night and then we get seven. So it's really interesting we find out more about this sort of I use the term blended family because I feel like people don't use that term for black people very often, and I think that when similar instances happen to non black families, people are like, oh,

we're a blended family. We're all sorts of like click dick, And it's not something that is ideal and nobody had planned it, but they are a family and they do love each other a lot, and seven is treated like a biological son by Lisa, and later in the book we find out that he tells people that she's his mom at school in particular, and some of that is from shame, some of that is from a love of her, shame of his actual mother but or not actual biological mother.

And uh so then we have this funeral, and I think right before the funeral, there is an incident with a basketball game. They're playing a pickup basketball game and it's Maya and Haley and Star and they're playing against three boys, including Chris, And when Chris steals the ball from Star, Haley makes a snide comment and says, why don't you just treat the ball like gets fried chicken?

And then Star gets reasonably and understandably upset, and Haley gets upset also that she is being accused of being a racist fucking Haley. Yeah, I think we should talk about Haley and Maya here. Haley. Obviously, as we go on, the dynamics there become more complicated. But um, I think that this is the first real instance where we see like, oh ships off with Haley a little bit. Uh, we did see it a little bit earlier in the very beginning, because the party happens at the end of spring break.

It's the Saturday at the end of spring break, and then when they get back to school on Monday. Uh, there is a line where Maya says, oh, Haley has been texting me all spring break, and Stars like the funk, why hasn't Haley texted me once all spring break? So there's definitely some tension there, and uh, do you all want to talk about follow her on Tumblr. It truly

is a bit and like a dirty unfollowed. It's not like she explicitly said I'm gonna follow you because I have difficulty with the content you're posting, and there was no communication about it. It It was just like I'm gonna unfollow. No, it's like a cowardly unfollowed, super cowardly, very teenage mean girl I follow. It also feels like it treats the content that she's posting in such an incredibly dismissive way to a picture of that Till being murdered, as though,

like why did you post garbage on your tuggeler? I don't like seeing that, That's what I don't want to look at that. And it's like no one wanted to look at that, And that's why Emmett Till's mother did that. She specifically had an open casket funeral because she said, I want them to see what they did to my

little boy. He was fourteen years old when he died, and he was accused of of inappropriate touching with a white woman who was twenty one and working in a store, Like that doesn't make any sense, and that white woman admitted later that she lied about what happened. It was discovered in Like Why seventeen, the year that this book came out, that Caroline Bryant, the woman who was the alleged victim in the case, that not in the case, but that lad people to murder Emmett Till, lied about it.

And she has faced no repercussions, no consequences, and she is still alive. She's still walking this earth, probably feeling at least moderately guilty, I hope. But just like that is a love of the oddest things about all the pictures from that time. They're all black and white, and I think, at least for me it it allows me to live in this kind of comfortable idea that all this happened a long time ago. And then you realize, like all those people are still voting, those people are

like seven right now. Those people screaming as the school's segregate and holding up just horrible signs, when people trying to set the lunch counters, they're all still around. That

was those were people, her grandparents, was no one. It was like a thing that I realized that I read that the Mala Hockey police officer who dismissed that Jeffrey Dahmer, basically a teenage a fourteen year old from Laos escaped from Jeffrey Dahmer naked and drugged, and a black girl like a teenager called the cops to be like clearly the situation, and her mother, grandmother, I'm not there, corroborated

the story. But Jeffrey Dahmer, the only white man in this situation, was like, ha ha, no, it's just a misunderstanding. He's my boyfriend. He's a little drunk, and completely dismissed the multiple people of color who are like, no, there

is a fucked up situation happening. They let that boy go back into his room and he was murdered, and then the ten more people were murdered by Jeffrey Dahmer, and that police officer who didn't respond, who like even noted that Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment smelled like flesh like like like weird smell. He became the head of the police union and he retired like with a thumbs up, like these people are just like okay, whatever, how do you

live with yourself? That's it? If you found out that that that that case, that that kid was then murdered and and and cannibalized, and then multiple more people were murdered. How do you then go another few decades as a police I couldn't do it. I mean I wouldn't have been a police officer in the first place. I just don't have the constitution. I'm very jumpy um and some people I just don't know. I don't have the constitution.

And I think that we need to look at some of the things that are happening, because it's like we had mentioned earlier, he was so trigger happy when fifteen when this happened, And it's like, if you are so afraid of somebody leaning into a vehicle and your first instinct isn't to de escalate the situation, to ask somebody to step back from the vehicle, any of that. Like, yes, you told him not to move already, I understand that. But I work with young people. They need things several times.

Sometimes you need to tell them multiple times, like I said this, I said that, And that's the thing. He is a young person. And if you're that trigger nappy and you're that jumpy, you need another job. Yeah, it certainly seems like a starr was able to remember all of her track thing as and someone who got a speech one time from her dad. Uh. It seems like one fifteen was not able to remember any training that he presumably should have. Well, I think the problem and

they're not getting training to to de escalate situations. That's part of it. But let's talk about friends. I think, yeah, the one it ties back in really well because she's at Haley's. I might be skipping ahead of story, but thematically it fits in. She's at Haley's when we're watching an interview about Maya. Sorry, Maya's with Haley next to her, like this is sort of the first time they've hung

out in a long time. Uh, And they are channel stiffing and they come across an interview and I think this is the interview where one fifteen dad he's a good boy and he was just trying his best, like the most, like humanizing, like, good old boy, don't ruin this sweet, non racist boy's life. The dad is trying to say and and he says he can't even go to the store for a gallon of milk, which reminded me very much a brock Turner's case where his dad was like, he can't eat a steak and I'm like, okay,

but you've traumatize someone for life. He can't enjoy his favorite food. Haley used to indicate that his happiness is as important as this other man's life, which is And Haley's response is like, Oh, that's so sad for that she at that moment, she truly did matter at that moment. Yeah, I think it's so like interesting, and Angie's just the best to make Hayley, you know, this white woman who's

his friend, this white this white teenager who's this friend. Uh, And to show that like friendship is not enough, Like I think we're having so many conversations about ally ship and what friendship is and what like being actually anti racist is. And to have Ali or Haley as this proxy for what I think a lot of non black folks and white folks can sometimes fall into the trap of of like saying a thing and not thinking that it's offensive or that it like puts that it's something racist.

And I also think it's interesting that Maya is Asian American because her growth in this story is important and interesting too, because in so many ways there's a lot of anti blackness in the Asian American community, and she's complicit at the beginning of this. And so she's absolutely complicit in the beginning of this and doesn't stand up

to Haley and is happy following. And so that is also a very interesting growth in their friendship as well, to have the three of them kind of navigating this together. I actually have a quote that I highlighted in uh the kindle version of the book. I have both the kindle version and the physical version, and it's from that scene because after Haley storms out after they get into an argument about how she Blue loves matters this moment.

Maya admits that there was a moment a couple of years prior when they were like freshman in high school, when Haley said something racist to her and she asked her. It was after Thanksgiving and she said, oh, my grandma came from China, And Haley asked, did you guys eat a cat? Because they're Chinese, which, first of all, I don't even think is the correct animal stereotype, Like I just don't um. And then she's a dumb rasist, so she's an inaccurate like that just really gets if you're

gonna be hateful, do it right. But do your research read Racist Weekly. Well, and then Star it's like, oh, I don't really remember this, And Maya says, well, you were there, and Starr says, what did I say? Maya responds, nothing, You had this look on your face like you couldn't believe she said that. She claimed it was a joke and laughed. I laughed, and then you laughed, and then I wrote there's a complicity that happens when you try to belong in a world that's not your own, instead

of realizing that standing out is your greatest strength. Because they're all trying to make it at Williamson and they're like, if we just make the white people feel like we'd cool, then will be okay. And who is that serving at

the end of the day. Not you. It's serving people who are contributing to a system that's going to then affect people later when they're applying for jobs and when the things actually mad, or when they're the cops and they see somebody and they're like, oh, they were these kind of sneakers, they were this kind of clothes, They're

a threat. Yeah. I loved the journey of the two of them together, of Maya and Star and Maya's growth in it, and I saw Haley represents I mean the ultimate like high school mean girl and two that I have experienced a lot in high school, but not you know, it was not an attack on my race because I am a white person. They're just like mean girls everywhere.

But I do think the what I loved about the Haley character, I think, as you were saying, Tianna, is that like it does feel so representative of a type of white person that is trying to trying to be an ally or maybe isn't. And what's the worst thing that you can do? Like if you're if you're racist, it's equally bad to be called a racist that she is demanding in that moment when Starr says that's racist what you said? She's like, how dare you call me

a race? Like you need to apologize for calling me racist? And that's like we both need to apologize. I'll apologize for this if you've apologize for calling me racist. And I feel like it was I loved how when star Let's Hayley go, it just felt like the last burden of of that she's letting go of this um version of star that was allowing people like that into her life.

I think that doesn't have much, but she doesn't have the audacity, like how yes someone if they say you said a racist thing to me, it's like, well, you apologize first, and then I'll do it. And then even later she also goes you apology, goes you apologize first, and my mom died too, so she does mention that her mom said. She's like, are you upset because your friend got shot? And like it's that time of year, And even when she does I'm putting air quotes around

this again, apology drives. Later she's like, I'm sorry that I if I hurt you. Yeah, I'm sorry that your feelings got hurt? How did your feelings get hurt? And she's like, I'm sorry you reacted this way. Can you

see Haley? Haley is like a tiny Karen in training, Like I don't mean, but she is, and you can like the video she would be in a viral video, Haley is not wearing a mask right now, and she's an anti fax er and she's yelling at grocery stork clerks anyway, and she's the one who names her daughter like Mikhaela with like an e and an eye and a g N and why in an age? And then it's like why are black names weird? Which is the thing that Chris well. But it wasn't just Haley, it

was the whole school, right Yeah. I mean I think Haley really stands out as an example of someone who is entirely out of earth their privilege and um, just wildly racist at every turn. But after um the protests started erupting and the school decides that they're going to do a walkout to protest his death. I had this moment where I was like, Oh, that's that's so good.

There there's such a tiny activists and then UM start immediately started getting other texts being like good we get a free day off, Like great, we're not going to school today. I love to skip class. Um, do you all remember who started the walkout? And so this is a this is a household issue. I do want to talk for a second about the film and casting because

something I found really interesting. UM, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term colorism, it is a sort of horizontal prejudice that happens in communities of color, where people who are considered more I have, who have more proximity to whiteness have more privilege, and so I think it's really important to talk about the fact that

a man less Stundberg is half white. They are a person of color and visibly coded as black, but they are very light skinned, and I thought it was really interesting how they were the most light skinned person in the in the cast who was black. But I also thought it was interesting that Mav was very dark skinned and Carlos, played by Academy Award winner Common, was also very light skinned, and I wonder if that had anything

to do with the tension between Mav and Carlos. Also um, and then I think it's also important to talk about the fact that, uh, the woman who plays Maya whose name I wrote down, Megan Lawless, Yes, Megan Lawless, is also uh she's a mixed race person. And kJ Appa, who plays Archie on Riverdale, a show that we've mentioned on this podcast previously and plays Chris in the in the show, is also a mixed race person, which a

lot of people I think don't know. Um. He is a quarter Maori and his dad is a chief in the Maori tradition, which um. I think it's interesting how all of these people are mixed race but are coded in different ways. So we look at Chris, we're supposed to say Chris is white, but also he has this indigenous community that he is a part of, and he and kJ Appa has never distanced himself from this community and is very open about it and has been since

the beginning of his career in New Zealand. UM And obviously Amana Stenberg is very open about fighting for black rights, and they're very open about black power and fighting for

equality for black people. And uh, Megan Lawless, I don't know as much, but I know that in an interview she said that she's felt that she's had to hide her Chinese side at times and had to hide her white side at times, and I did feel like having her be mixed race kind of took some of the air out of the sales of the Maya Story, and they didn't explore that more, and she wasn't really They never mentioned her last name, they never mentioned anything about

her family. I think if you didn't didn't read the book, I mean visually, that you might not have been able to gauge that. Yeah, if you didn't read the book, you'd be like, Wow, it's cool that they gave her a diverse friend and I'm like, no, that's intentional. It's it's supposed to be a big part of it. Yeah, it was interesting that they cut that out because you only see Maya not getting it, and then you see her at the end with Chris and Star when everything is like all pals ready to go um, and I

was like, no, movie, don't. Yeah, it's like we missed every second of growth in may We missed their packed to stick together, which I thought was super important. Yeah, and I think that we do have those moments as people of color, and I mean it's real, and even if you were not of the same color, of the same community, within your color, it's like when we are in primarily white spaces where like I got you, I

see you, I'm here to stick up for you. I went to Cachella with a large group of people one time and only one other person was a person of color, and I felt super left out of everything that was happening with my group and they were exceedingly rude to me in a lot of instances, and the only other person of color in the group was the one who

was like there for me at every turn. And I saw that and I recognized that, and it was very if there was a kinship there where he was like, no, I see you, and I see what they're doing to you. And neither of us wanted to be like, hey, you guys are fucked up. And there wasn't anything we could point to specifically that was like, ah, you called Karama the N word. But there was something there and he

saw it. He made sure I was included at every turn when everyone was trying you know, Yeahma, we gotta go. Then this book club is going to Coachello when things can happen again. Absolutely, it's very hot there though I don't know if you don't want to know, it sounds terrible, but I've got a lot of Palusa and stay at my parents house. Great, okay, awesome. You promised me that I could come and visit your parents, So I'm taking you up my mom and dad. They I mean, my

parents say they listened to this podcast. Let's call their bluff if you listen to this. Uh. I hope, I hope Karama's coming and everyone's coming to come to l of Palusa. I can't wait. Put us up for free. Schwartz is this is popcorn book Club we'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club a moment before we move on. Um. I love in this part that Star lies about period cramps to get picked up by uncle, because I'm just like, again,

you are reminded that these are teenagers. They're like so young, and like, how many of us have lied about period cramps? I have lied about about what? Oh, I certainly did. I also do what I felt like. Another sweet detail about that to me was you could see how Carlos is this father figure, Like if it was not a father figure, Like, could you imagine at sixteen telling anyone but your mom and dad even that you have period cramps or like you know, or any man, any other

man besides your father. So I felt like there was that sweet intimacy. And obviously Carlos knows that she's like full of it, but I like that detail. Yeah, I will say I did tell my technical theater and action teacher in college that I had period cramps because I did not want to go to class. I was not lying, but I was like, I can't operate a saw. I just don't think that you should trust me with the saw. And he was like stay home, never talked to me

about I think. Sorry, back to the relationship with Carlos, I love that DeVante subplot when he was staying with Carlos because we did sort of see we we got Carlos reconciling and growing with this idea of what it meant to leave the community, but what it meant to

them help and contribute. And I liked him feeling like he's responsible for Davante and and helping him along and and really, yeah, it is a nuanced and complicated issue about like whether you leave or whether you stay, and I think it's one that doesn't have a single answer. As as seen by in the movie, they stay in the community, and in the book they moved to a place that sort of a compromise is between uh, the gated community that Carlos lives in and and Garden Heights.

They sort of just end up living in a a more diverse neighborhood. It's a little bit out of town. Yeah, we should talk about the Vante plot as well, because yes, I want to say something about DeVante really quickly. I missed that he was kind of the only character that really called Chris out on anything. Um and I feel like there is no addressing of the fact that Chris is to use a term that Davante used a wigger like he very much, a term that I feel like

should come back in vogue. I feel like I'm going to say that that very That's not a word I'm comfortable using. It's a different letter word. I am not at all trying to trick you. I've never tried to trick you into saying the N word before, and I won't do it today. I don't want you to say it, which you don't. I think it's very clear. I can say now here and now Dani Schwartz does not say

the N word. Your face is hilarious. But I think that there are moments that he has in the book where he like asks, He's like, Okay, so wait, you guys were just like saying stuff about white people. So can I ask why you guys have like weird names? Which is a huge trigger for me, as I have an atypical for American society name, and I'm just like,

why would you ask that? And most people don't know what their names mean, and I just think it's really interesting that people who have names that aren't Susan or Sarah or Rebecca or any number of like quote unquote regular names that have been very normalized in American society are expected to be able to answer questions about their

names all the time. And they do have very intentional names in terms of Maverick gave them intentional names, and I think that Andrew Thomas does a really great job of choosing intentional names. Like the name Maverick is I think, very on purpose. But like, do all of you know what your name is? My parents just chose it because they liked it. Well. Fun fact, your name means arbiter, Dana, yeah, or God is my judge? Oh my god? Did you look at all our names? I did. I was prepared

for this conversation. Melissa, your name means bumblebee. It's also the Greek nymph that taught man the use of honey because it's very also my grandma's room. But that's my things. Like people get named after people, I was named after someone. I was named after my dad's aunt. That's why my name is what it is. Jennifer, your name means white, So I'm sorry your name is white, right it was supposed to be. And then my parents changed it, which also means about two days before I was born because

they thought it would be too weird. So that's the story behind my name. And Tian. I believe your name means fairy, but it was from a website that was not explicitly Vietnamese, so I only trust them as far as I can throw them. So my my full Vietnamese name is actually hunt Ian and it's it's it together means happy fairy, which is very appropriate for this. The dance that the listeners are missing is crucial. I think it is so important culturally. That also, so many, like

white names are just made up. Like Shakespeare just made up the name Jessica, by the way, he just made up a sound, and so like people, Yeah, that is what that is, crazy, like name, you know, like every name is just an arbitrary sound. Every name is made up. People ask me regularly is your name made up? Which I just think the rudest question, incredibly rude. Karama. I feel safe. I feel safe asking this since we've all talked about our names. So what can you tell us

about your name? Well, I was named after my dad's aunt, who took care of him after his mom died. When he was seventeen. So in essence, I'm like named after my grand grandma, but it doesn't mean anything in the culture where I come from. It's just a family name. The time that I felt the most scene in my life was when I was living in Ghana and I had a teacher who was like, oh, your name's Karama. You're a Chim which is the ethnic group that I come from there. And I was like, you see me,

you know me. It's not a common name in Ghana either. That's why I was like, oh, man, even here, I'm a weirdo. Um. But in Arabic, apparently people have told me this, it means dignity and generosity. If you are a listener who speaks Arabic and I am wrong, please feel free to at me on Twitter and on me.

All right, So back to the book. Um, we were going to talk about the Davante subplot, because I do think that's important and if we talk about nothing else, we should talk about Davante's character and how he advances

the book. Jen do you want to take So Davante is working for King, and King wants him to I think execute the first thing who shot his brother at the party and Davante really does not want to do that, and it becomes very clear when Star and Mavericks see him just lingering in Maverick's corner store a little bit too long, um, and it becomes very clear that he's hiding from King and the king Lords. And he starts

talking to Maverick about the situation he's in. How he wants to know how Maverick got o would of being in the king Lords, and Bathicks says, well, I went to jail for them, so that's how I got out, and it does not want to go to jail very very understandably, so he but he's clearly trying to get out of life in the king Lords. And for a little while he works in maverick shop. Um, he's working pretty hard. Um. Maverick asked what kind of grades he makes. He says he makes A S and B S at school.

He's not dumb. Um. He has a little bit of a flirtatious chemistry with Star, and eventually it becomes very clear that King is looking for him and is going to find him and do something ambiguously horrible to him. So they send Avante off to live with Uncle Carlos, and that means that he is also living down the street from Chris uh Star's boyfriend, and it brings those two people into contact with each other, so we can

talk a little bit about that. They sort of have this then, like a horrible cute little friendship playing video games together. And I think it helps Chris, who sort of I think a better well developed character in the book because I think we get more of him than he and he is in the movie. But we do see Chris actively trying to understand where Star comes from, and I think that hanging out with Davante then helps

him in that world. And then the Davante subplot is what gets Start back to the neighborhood the night of the riots and protests. First, Davante leaves and they don't know what happened to him, and it turned out he went back to the neighborhood and he got jumped by

the king lords. Um. I think it's important to say he went back to the neighborhood because he wanted to go to his sorry to be with his brother's grave, but gets jumped and they go back into Garden Heights, which is, for the record, a fictional community, and they never say what state it's in, which I also thought was really important because I think there's a lot of there's a lot of an erroneous belief that stuff like this only happens in the South, and that's not true

at all, And by not giving it an actual state, it could be in any state, it could be in your state. Listener, So these things do happen in your state unless you live in insert state here. I'm kidding that happens. I'm gonna go super fast over this just to to wrap it up, so I might miss one

or two things. But they go and they find uh Davante, who's basically bleeding out on the second floor of of King's house, and they were able to get in because of Seven, who's also King's stepson sort of you know, by his mother, and Kenya, who's King's daughter, and they they help basically rescue h DeVante with the help of Ayisha, who Seven had been so embarrassed by and sort of ashamed by and thinks of as a as you know, a woman who over indulges King in a way that

he finds really um troubling. And then he doesn't even realize stars the one who realizes, like, no, he just she just saved you. Like she went back to distract King and said, take your sister, both of your sisters. Not because she was tired, but not because like, oh just get rid of your sisters because I'm tired of them, but because she was actively protecting them. Because when King saw Davante was going to be gone, he was going to beat someone. She essentially, I mean she didn't die,

but she essentially sacrificed herself. She sacrificed her health. She put herself in danger in order to protect and save her children because because knowing that she would um get beaten once he discovers what hap. I think there's a constant theme throughout this book of people being willing to put themselves in positions of tremendous danger to defend people that they love. Khalil Um at the beginning, they talked about how he wanted to make money because he wanted

to help his mom. He was still trying to his mother. His last words were asking if Starr was okay speaking of sacrifice and putting yourself in danger. You know, after the protests and the riots and they almost die in maps shop because King King's guys throw in a what's it called tail and they almost die and it's this very scary scene and they're rescued. And then when everyone snitches on King and they realized that King will will be out by the end of the week. Um, Davante

says that he will. Um, he will be an informant and tell them where the drugs are so that they will that he will stay in prison and that is his his sacrifice, you know. Um at the end of the book, which also speaks to mandatory minimums and how drug charges have much longer sentences murder. Yeah, the book, which the film doesn't get into, but is I am really excellent well and the end of the film is very different with Sakani having the gun, and I understand

that it needed something stronger visually. Uh, and it was definitely very strong. I was like, oh no, my sweet baby, because I love Sakani, He's my favorite. I love that. The first scene we see him in the movie is him peeing wrong. He's just missing, he's just missing the toilet. Um. They don't get into. Yeah, his name means joy since we're on name meanings. UM. I think that it's important, I guess for the plot development to have it wrap up with the hate you give little infants and show

this is it. This is the visual manifestation at This is Sakani holding a gun at Kang saying leave my daddy alone. And it fox everyone because if the police, I was surprised the police didn't arrest him. But the police show up point guns. It succoming and I think part of it if he had been a white kid with a gun, it would have maybe been a slightly different situation, especially because he didn't have his gun pointed

at anybody else. Another I mean important moment in the in the book sort of a climax is during the protest, uh, Star gets the courage to climb on a car and grab a megaphone and use it to to talk about her experience publicly about being the witness. And that was that's her I think, you know, big moment to her act of courage, just being able to publicly speak out about this and and hold the weapon of the megaphone.

I thought one motif that I thought was really beautiful was the literal ways in which Star finds her voice throughout the story that it starts with her. You know, she doesn't tell her friends at school, she doesn't tell Chris she has to go to the police, like or she decides she wants to, but she tries to back

out at a certain point. And then after that experience, you know, she talks to the grand jury and then she does the interview, but the interview is still anonymous and so and then that final moment was so I mean, it felt so emotional of her getting on that cop car and it was that true moment of her finding her voice with a literal bullhorn. And I just loved that arc. And now we can go back to the

grand jury. But I just thought the way Angie wrote those and sort of but and talking to Chris at prom about it too, was like it was each like unfolding of it and opening up and speaking her truth. I just thought it was so beautiful. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break. So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio. I know that, um, for queer people, you have to come out multiple times.

Like everybody's like, oh, you came out, and it's like, no, I have to come out all the time. If I ever have a partner that is like I personally am bisexual, So if I have a partner who is of a similar gender to me than I have to be like, yes, this is a thing, and like, particularly because I have dated people who were not of similar genders to me,

then I have to come out again. And I think that being black and having intimate relationships with white people, whether it's friendship, whether it's family in some people's cases, or whether it is a relationship, you have to in a way sort of come out over and over again and show them aspects of your blackness over and over again, and like they're just things that you don't talk about. Like I have a friend and who's going to be in prison until and I don't talk about that a lot.

And when I do talk about it, I feel bad because I'm like, I just dumped a whole bunch of stuff on you, and my friends are like, well, now I understand a lot more about you and why certain things maybe get under your skin. And like, I think that people should be able to vote after they've served their time. That's not it's ridiculous um for parties. It's saying that that doesn't happen. I also believe that people should be able to vote while they're in prison. I

know that's a little bit more controversial. It does exist in some states, but I think at the very least, the bare minimum is that if you've served your time, you've done your debt to society. We can argue about whether prison should even be the punishment because residivism is out of control, um and it makes it harder to get a job after you've been in prison. Like, being in prison truly ruins people's lives. But I think that knowing that about me did gives people insight in a

different way. But it's also a thing that you can't just whip out at parties, Like I mean, Dana has known me for years and years and she just found that out right now as we're recording a podcast. And I've known this friend, my friend who is incarcerated currently, since I was four years old, and he's like my brother. He's basically my Davante, And I'm so grateful that he is alive and that when he was arrested he survived that.

But it's also like at what costs, Like what life is he going to have if he gets out right. To bring it back to the hate you give, is I do feel like it's all part of the same problem, where the system of law enforcement is one in which someone like one fifteen gets to determine Khalil's entire life

and death. Where you know, in a different universe, Khalil might have been arrested for for drug dealing, you know, and that would have been better than murdered, but it's still a systemic act of violence against against his body where he just can't live as a person in the

world because the entire system is rigged against him. In a different reality, he might have been stopped in frist and a lot of stopping frisk does h end up as effectively sort of sexual assault where they are violated in the people who are stopped and fristed are violated by these police officers and there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, and you can get raped by a police officer legally in like twenty States or something like. It'sas which we do not hold police accountable, as what

why are we letting that happen? Also, in a in a very different world, he wouldn't have needed to drug deal to pay for his grandmother's cancer treatments because medical care would be affordable a marriage is not a good place. I mean, there are a good part, and that's the thing we are. We're all responsible as people in this country for trying to make the good parts outweigh the bad parts. And some of the good parts are some of the freedoms that we hold, like freedom of speech.

We get to say all this stuff because of the First Amendment in the Constitution. But I think people forget that the Constitution is supposed to be a living, breathing document, and a lot of people forget that we're saying the First Amendment. It wasn't in the Constitution that we got freedom of speech. We amended it because we were like, oh, that's the thing people should have. And we amended the

Constitution to abolished slavery. Accept I think that except is a big word in the thirteenth Amendment, but we keep making changes. We amended the Constitution to prohibit alcohol, and then we amended it back because we were like, remember, this is the problem. The problem with American exceptionalism when people assume that this is the only way. So it's like,

I think America is exceptional in some ways. It's like, yeah, well, great that in theory we have communication and freedoms and changing. But that then that idea that America is the best bite us in the ass, because then it prevents us from making it better. Um. I think it's also a culture that actively disparages learning about other cultures. It's one of the only My family is Canadian. Um, I was born here. I'm a dual citizen. But everybody in my

family because they're run away. Oh my god, why are you still here? Um? It's a really good question, you know. I think in the same way, the people in this book, to bring it back to the book, can want to stay in Garden Heights because you think that if you use your voice and you try to be a good person, you can make things a little bit better. Maybe that's what we're all trying to do with America right now.

I hope. Um. But yeah, but it's a culture where the entire rest of my family speaks French and English. Because you learn French in the schools, you also learn English. UM, I don't France, never mind. Could I also just say on the record, Jennifer, you are the fanciest witch I know. Oh, thank you. That's nice of you. Wow, wow shots fires Well, thanks thanks Melissa. I think you are fancy, and I

think you Sorry. You guys have one day invite me to a party where the alcohol served is exclusively champagne, and then you will also compete for the Fanciest Bitch I know award. Um, I will also saying that I will ever say. Growing up, I was told never to use the word fancy because it's vulgar. See, I'm not a fancy fanciest shit I've ever heard. Yeah, that's super Guenevere. When you're fancy, We're gonna call you Guenevere from now. But I do think actually just to bring the we

should bring me the pace. Well, in the very first scene in the book, I think it's actually the very first line in the book, Star says I don't belong here. And she's at this party and she's like, I don't belong here, and then she says and that's not on some bougie ship, which um, I thought was really interesting because there is the immediate thing like, well, I'm not bougie. I'm not trying to think that I'm better than anybody.

And I think that there's a lot of defense of that that has to happen for Star because she goes to this school, and I know that for me when I was younger, when I even younger than Star, when I was like eleven and twelve, I got called an oreo a lot because I liked school. And do you guys know that term? Ya? I mean obviously not the cookie, but um so for listeners who might not oreo as a person who is black on the outside and white on the inside. So I got called I got told

I act white. I got told that I was an oreo. And I think, thankfully, because there is less of a larger cultural belief, not just in black cultures but in American culture, that there is this monolith of blackness, black people feel less like they have to hold everybody to

the standard of this monolith of blackness. And I think that one of the reasons that people do that is because or not do that, but did that to me is because if I am seeing as different from them, and I think that I'm better than them, then they are worse and they are the people who are getting stopped by the police, Like I drive a Prius with a brown university sticker on the back, and I think that's probably a large part of why I very rarely

get pulled over by cops. I can count on one hand how many times I've been pulled over, and both times I was deeply afraid. I was lucky I didn't get a ticket either time, But the second time I know that it was probably belie the fact that I had somebody who was not black in the car with me that made it not an altercation of any sort. And I think that Star's mom says that you can do everything right and things can still go wrong, but

the important thing is to keep doing right. And she said that more in terms of speaking out and speaking up. But I feel like Khalil was frustrated because he did everything right and he was still getting pulled over. And the thing is, you have to keep doing everything right.

You just still have to keep doing it. It sort of reminded me also of when it's so horrible that there are so many people that I'm like, do you remember when Michael Brown died and it was the phrase they I think they used the phrase like he was

no angel to describe him. Oh yeah, the news, which I think making Khalil a drug dealer for like reasons justifiable or not, Like he was just like a young kid caught up in this community is really important in this book because it doesn't make his life any less meaning full or valuable. You don't have to be a good person. You don't have to be a sweet person or a good person or a nice person to not to have it be bad that cops indiscriminately murder you. Yeah,

we don't live in the wild West. Even if you are objectively a very bad fully murderous person, Cops shouldn't be allowed to just shoot you in the streets when you're eating side and they And I think the other side of that too, is for Star she's learns in that same conversation Karma that you brought up where her

mom talks to her. Oh, I think. I think they go through a blockade to get back into the neighborhood as protests are happening, and she's still she has PTSD and she's worried about the cops because she also could have been killed in that the cop point of the

gun at her. So like, I think the conversation that is that needs to be a part of it too, is that there's no amount of respectability that black folks can move about in this world without being police to buy a violent state in a racist society, and that like someone like Star who did everything right, who goes to a private school, who is a good kid, could also fall victim to stay violence. That's our show for

the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danis Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Wright Karama, Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes were produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special

thanks to David Wasserman. Next week, I am so excited to say we sit down with author Angie Thomas to talk about the hate you give. I am so excited about this conversation. I cannot wait for you all to hear it. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio. See you next week, m HM.