The Hate U Give (Part 1)

police officers. So it might be tempting to look at Angie Thomas's two thousand seventeen novel They Hate You Give as prescient, but really she's writing about something that has been happening for decades, for centuries really in this country. But we will get to that. This is Popcorn book Club and this week we're talking about Thomas's novel and it's film adaptation. And I promise you even dealing with sensitive topics like these are commitment to correcting people remains spadfast.

She's been inaccurate. That just really get if I'm gonna be hateful, do it right. So, without further ado, here's Popcorn book Club. Hey, welcome back to Popcorn book Club. I'm Danish Schwartz and joined as always by Karamad Unqua, Jennifer Wright, Melissa Hunter, Antiene Tran. Hey, everyone, h I hate you give Obviously, it was a book that came out in two thousand seventeen and had a film version in two thousand eighteen, But we are revisiting it now

for reasons that should be obvious. And also obvious should be that I, Danish Wartz, I'm a white person, and so I'm going to throw guidance of this conversation and leadership of this conversation over to my friend, I am a black person. You guys can't see realize that I have one actual question for you, Karama, before you before

you take the Uh the issue so terrified? What's the question? No, it's just the there's a big issue of of code switching in this book and star the version of that she is at home and the version she is at school. You went to, uh as you've told me, not that I'm guessing a predominantly white prep school, boarding school, fancy fancy Virginia. Uh. What was that experience like for you? Well, well, just to clarify, I did go to for three years

of high school. I went to in all girls boarding school in central sort of basically northern Virginia, but like rural northern Virginia in Loudon County, which is, fun fact, one of the richest counties in the nation. And it was an equestrian school, so most of the girls rode horses and I did not ride horses. I owned zero horses. My my roommates sophomore year horse girls school. Yes, I went to horse girls school. I the horse girls have

become radicalized. I will say that, like my roommate from sophomore year who had a horse named Jack, and she showed me like a picture album of her, pictures of her and Jack. Uh. And she now lives on a farm. She met her husband on farmers only she's uh. And she was she having sex with the horse. No, she had a photo album of her and her horse. No, she was not having sex with a horse. There was a rumor spread about another girl at school that she

had performed falacio on a horse, and the rumor. The worst part about that rumor is that somebody said that I started it, and I was like, no, I did not. I have nothing to do with this horse falacio rumor. But back to the point, it's just ever since Catherine the Great people just keep going with the same staring back away from horse Falatio, staring it back to the conversation of race. I did not come from uh like horse background, but I did. My mom also went to

that school. I was one of the first sort of legacies that was black. And I think that it is important to note the blackness is not a monolith, and stars experience in this book is not every black person's experience in this book, and there's overlap was mine. I did feel like I had to be different at school than I was at home. Um. But the thing is I lived at school, so that also makes it a whole different situation where I was there like nine months

out of the year. Uh. And for me, I felt like I was definitely encouraged to remember that my situation in life was not the same as their situations in life, so if I got in trouble, the consequences would be different. And that was something that I think was always over me. And I kind of got this reputation very early on that I was a narc because I was like, if you guys do anything that is bad, I will tell on you because I'm not trying to be an accomplice

to anything. I'm not trying to affiliate myself with anything that is untoward, and so that did not earn me many friends early on, but as people got to know me, I think they got to figure out out that, oh,

she's not an arch, she's just scared. So uh yeah, I did go to a primarily white institution for high school p w I for short, and I went to one for college, and uh so that I have a lot of experience with what Star went through in terms of having a code switch and having these two worlds and living and existing in a world where people are very educated and have this idea of knowing a lot about what's going on in the world, but still don't

really see you for who you are. And there's a line I think it was in the movie, I don't remember if it was also in the book, but Hailey says to Star, Oh, you're different. And there's that sort of feeling that like, oh, you're not like other black people because you're a person that I understand that you're palatable, and I feel like that's something that happens a lot with black people who have a lot of white friends and have a lot of non black friends in general,

and krama for listeners who maybe don't know. Can you explain code switching? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. Code switching is something that everyone does. Uh. Just to be clear, it's not exclusive to black people, but a lot of times we have conversations about it in relation to blackness. Code switching is when the language and behaviors that you engage in with one group of people you change them when you're

around another group of people. So we all code switch in in smaller ways, like, oh, when I'm with my friends, I don't talk the same way I talk at work because that would be inappropriate unless you're us and you can talk about horse Falacio both at work and with

your friends. US with black comedy writer, yes, that is true, or a group chat does not have many conversations about horse Falacio yet, so uh so, code switching for black people in particular can be a switch from African American Vernacular English also known as A A V E, sometimes

pejoratively termed ebonics into standard American English. So that's something that some people in their neighborhoods, like Star says in the book, and we'll get into plot in just a second, but Star says, if a rapper would say it star At Williamson Williamson, Oh, I know the name of the school.

Starr At Williamson would not say it. So there's this sort of division of this is my academic language and this is my I'm at home with my friends language, even when she's in the social aspects of her school, so not just in the classroom, but also when she's talking to her peers. And there's also that scene in the movie I think we also watched the movie where she's like walking down the hall and all the white kids are like those kids are lit, and she's saying

thank you. Yeah. That scene made me want to retch. I just it was I mean, it was a visceral reaction because we've all had it. And like, there are people in my life, like people that have known for a very long time, who will talk differently to me, a black person, than they do to other white people in their lives. Like, um, there is a family friend who whenever I come over to their house, he's like, Oh, what's up, dog, And I'm just like, I don't talk

like that. I legitimately don't, And I don't know why you would talk to me like that, because you also don't talk like that, and there's nothing wrong with talking like that, but it's just not how either of us talk, and it's the shift into that when my face walks

into the room. I've had to not catch myself. But I have noticed sometimes on the internet, like with like a Twitter slang that like cool teens are using, but obviously and primarily comes from the black community, where sometimes I'm like doing a meme and it's more in in you know, like more casual language or slang that I wouldn't really use, and I sort of have to catch myself and being like, Okay, what am I trying to do here? That's like not an accurate representation of myself.

So I think, like in watching this movie, it's so easy and reading the book, obviously, like for Haley, who's like the most villainous white character in the world, which we'll get to, it's easy to dismiss and be like, oh, well, I'm not like that, so I'm good. But I think that it does sort of sneak up on people and

well meaning people in everything. There's a spectrum of all of that stuff, and uh, it's easy to think because I'm not one fifteen the cop, that I'm not engaging in racist behavior, or because I'm not Haley, I'm not engaging in racist behavior. But there are so many thousands of things in between those two people and on the other side of Haley that might seem more innocuous. But yeah, let's get into some plot. Um, Melissa, do you want to start us off? Oh gosh, sure, Sorry to throw

the intense beginning at you. You look serene and I thought i'd put that up. Thank you so much. I need to get out of my neutral space. Uh. So we have Star Carter. She is our lead, our heroine. Um. She is I believe sixteen years old. Is that correct? Um? And she is going to a party with Kenya, who we later learn is not her not related. She's not related to Kenya, but they share a brother. They both

share a half brother on different sides, dad and mom respectively. So, and it's a primarily black party, and or um, mostly mostly black people are there, teenagers. It's it's a you know, a really big party. And she feels very uncomfortable in this space. She's not. She's not because she goes to this prep school she is. Most of her social circle is now white, so she feels a little bit un

off her footing. She doesn't. She feels self conscious because she talks about how at her school she's the cool black girl, because you, by nature get when you're around a bunch of white people, they think you're cool and say your shoes are lit um. But here everyone is cooler than her, or at least she thinks so and Um. She runs into Kenya has Um Uh is in sort

of a fight. She wants to fight with this girl who I think there's some boy drama between them, and so she goes off and Khalil, her old friend, comes up to her, and they haven't seen each other in a while, and they're talking and it's clear there's some intimacy between them. They really care for each other and he it's also you can tell there's like a little bit of flirtation too. There's just a lot of layers

to this relationship. And then all of a sudden, shots are fired in the party and everyone is scrambling to leave, and Khalil grab star and says, come with me, and so they go into his car and drive away and they're driving. They're catching up some more Uh Khalil makes either at the party or in the car. I forget it seems to imply that he's has some money now, and she's a little bit worried that it might be related to drugs and um. And then all of a

sudden they get pulled over. And when they get pulled over, we hear star sort of of what she's learned when she had the talk with her parents when she was younger about how to be safe as or as safe as you can be as a black person with a police when you're pulled over, and you, uh, you know, are very polite. You don't make any sudden moves, you answer their questions, you don't reach for anything too quickly.

So she's kind of reciting all that as this cop is coming up, and the cop is immediately antagonistic and suspicious of these two black teenagers, and Khalil is not um abiding by stars sort of rules that she has in her head of how to be safe with police present. Is being a little bit more, a little bit more of an attitude um in a way that is justified because the cop is being very antagonistic and she gets

really worried. Um. But it escalates very quickly. Uh. They the cops says to get out of the car for Khalil to get out of the car and put his hands I believe, on the top of the car while he goes and runs his license and Star is getting very scared and Khalil asks if she's okay, And in the middle of Khalil asking if she's okay, he gets shot and killed. Um. She runs out of the car and Khalil dies in her arms, and it's very very sad.

Uh and uh and that at the cop also points the gun at her um and someone else wants I think that's a good place to I think it's a good place to about that scene. Yeah. Can I make one comment of a thing that I really like that Angie Thomas did with the setup of this book. Was she she made it. She gave it the sense that it could have been a very different book. Like the sexual chemistry between Kalil is really cute, and you're like, oh, this is her former friend, but she has this white boyfriend.

Were in a different universe, this book would have been about like a love triangle between a girl sort of who feels herself caught between two worlds. Like I was like wing for her and Khalil, I was like, oh my god, are they going to kiss. They have this chemistry and then this cop I mean like he kills Khalil and cuts his life so or completely changes the

trajectory of the book. Yeah, And I think that's one of the things that makes it especially tragic that it's cut off that potential story, that it's cut off all potential stories for I mean, it can't be a story about him getting out of drug dealing or them both getting to live in a better place. Um, although stories are ended incredibly prematurely by an act of violence. I think that we've talked a lot about some really heavy stuff and we should just take a breather for a sec.

You're listening to Popcorn Book Club from my Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after the break. So we're

back with Popcorn book Club for my Heart Radio. I mean, I think the one thing that I would love to talk about is that they listened to Tupac on the way to to get back to UH Stars house and they Khalil brings up the fact that thug life actually means something much more than what I had never I did not know this, um and that thug life stands for they hate you give little infants, Fox everyone, which is kind of a shorthand acronym for systemic racism, which

they talk about and then gets It's it's sort of a theme that we keep coming back to that these cycles of violence are because of you know, as we as we were all starting to learn about like under resourced, under underserved communities being forced into economic situations that they can't break the cycle of because of state violence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I thought it was interesting also that Melissa you had talked about how there was an indication that Khalil had money, and the indication, if I recall, was that he had like this big earring with a diamond in it, and he had these like new fresh sneakers, which she did stuff and we get to see a little bit, like Dana was saying, of the tension there because she's like, oh, let me clean your sneakers because she's a sneaker head,

which I love. I love that she's a little sneaker head. Um. I love Star just as a character, and she loves Harry Potter and Karon Potter. I know. You know, I kept going back to the Harry Potter thing as well, because he kept reminding me how young these people were that. Um, I think something that we as a society do is sometimes we have prematurely adultified black children. And a lot of times, when um, a black person gets shot by the police, newspapers talk about how like they were a thug,

and it seems like they posted danger. And I think if you look back to what you were like at fifteen, those are those are just making Those are little people who like Harry Potter, well that and that's something I will I'm sure keep going back to. But what I loved about this book was it was, you know, a book about about systemic violence or violence against black people and this incredible tragedy and all of the tragedies um against black people. And at the same time it was

a young adult teenage drama. Like there's a teenage drama. There's romance, there's like going to prom and then the beginning it starts with a flirtation, and it it does

feel like black teenagers can't just be teenagers. And that's the thing, like you you see over and over again, like with her tumbler, I think it's a really good example of how, like Hayley thinks, it's so disgusting posting these pictures of them att till and it's like that's what, that's what they're faced with, their face with that duality constantly. And I think that was really well told. And we'll

get into m until stuff later. It's fine, we And I think that also the fact that it's there's this huge argument it's about tumbler again speaks to the fact that these are teenagers in um like sen whose main issues surround on this like microblogging social media platform that was very cool at the time. Would just like, can I just add that I love that it's a young adult book, but I think everyone should read this book, Like I think that is such it's like wonderful read.

It's so important and thoughtful, and like everyone should read this book. It shouldn't beat as young adults. So anyone listening, like, share it with everyone that you're that you're friends with, not friends, enemies, anyone. Something I was wondering about a little bit, since a lot of members of this group are white, did anybody else have a conversation with their parents growing up about what to do with please pull you over? The most brief one and it was never

for your own safety. It was just like how always have your registration on you. Yeah, you should keep that in the glove compartment. Was the extent of the conversation was have your registration. But well, when I was ten, actually the cop pulled my mom over, and um, I had not had a conversation with her at the time

about anything. And I remember recently I had been at j C. Penny with my family friends and we had all been like shopping at j C. Penny and then my friend who was like my mom's friend's daughter, and I were lagging behind and we get to the car and we heard that, um, they got to see the inside of a cop car, and I was super jealous that I didn't get to see the inside of a cop car. Um, because they like gave my friend's little brother a tour. And I think that he also seems

less of a threat because he was younger. We were all black. I think that's important to note he's younger and he has down syndrome. He's not younger now. He's like twenty two now, which is crazy to me. But then I was super jealous that I hadn't gotten see the inside of a cop car. So my mom gets pulled over because she has like dead tags on her car, which sometimes we all forget or we're just broke and can't do it. Um. And it was like by a month,

it wasn't like years later anything. And the cop pulled us over and I leaned over and I said, can I see the inside of your car? And my mom looked like she wanted to strangle me because she's like, please, do not engage with police like that. Don't talk to them, just let them. He did let me see the inside of his car, which made me super happy at the time, And now I hope to never see the inside of

a cop car ever again. But it's interesting because I was just a kid in that sense and not with the weight of this is the police under my decision making. I was just like, Oh, my friend got to see the inside of a cop car. I want to see all the button um. But I also had the privilege of not growing up in the same type of neighborhood as Star Granma. I want to go back briefly to the point that Ten made about this being a way book, but it um, you know, really should be read by everyone.

You and I we texted about this briefly when we started reading it, where it's like, there are certain advantages to it being a y A story in that it young people hopefully also will read this, like I've heard stories about high school student traits, in which I think it's also important to note that it was awarded a couple of different awards by the American Library Association. So it got the Cretis got King Award, obviously named for Martin Luther King Jr's wife, Um, and that's for black

young adult books. And it also won the William C. Morris Award, which was for first time young adult writers. And it was on the National Book Award Young Adult long List, so it's killing it in the y A game. And it was highly recognized, and it was on the New York Times bestseller list for over eighty weeks when it first came out, So this was clearly something that

sparked something in people. But it was also banned by several people, and there were fringe groups saying that it was dangerous because it humanized the victims of police violence, which just I don't know if that's why it was banned. It does have a lot of swear words and a penis joke at one point, which I thought was great because that's life when you're sixteen. But I don't think that the single penis joke in the book is the reason that people were banning it. I think it's because

it was about race a lot. It humanizes the human It does humanize the human beings. But yeah, I was doing some reading on the book online and there are people who were like, this is bad because of humanization, and I was like, God, God forbid people see black people as humans. I remember seeing someone on Twitter like coming at Angie and the author and they were like, Um, how am I supposed to take a book about black people's seriously when the title spells out thug t h

U g ever think of that? And she's like, yeah, literally she did, Like it's spelled purposely like you to make that. They talked about it in the course like a lot. It's it's probably the most recurring theme, but it's someone most chief. It's someone who thought they found the illuminating Beyonce might be stars cousin. They do talk about that in the book, that they have the same we have the same last name, and I'm like, that's

jay Z's last name. Calm down, you're related to jay Z at best, which is not to slander jay Z ja Z You're wonderful. I know you're listening to this as we are a top podcast. Um, jay Z is no Beyonce. I feel like we can all say and are different people. Yes, that is what I will say. But they could be like cousins in law, which would

be really cool. Yes, cousins by marriage. But so we've talked about everything sort of accept the worst part of that first segment, which is the shooting itself, and it was really illuminating to see how Uh it was very upsetting for me to watch it and film. It was

hard to read, but it was harder to watch. And uh, it's interesting to see how she focuses on tiny details like the badge number because her dad was like, make sure you have a badge number, And for the rest of the book she only refers to him by his badge number, even after learning his name. And I think also just her insistence like hey, Khalil, you need to

listen to to me. It also really shows that there's a family cohesiveness in her life and there's like a familial care in her life that wasn't in Khalil's life because Khalil's mother has has a drug problem and isn't fully present in his life. And I think that later on, Star sort of blames his mother in a way for that, because if someone had had to talk with him, he might still be alive. Mm hmm, yeah, I hate you

give a little infants everyone. Yeah. Um. So I think that also the fact that she was so overwrought with emotion after this shooting happens, that she forgets everything that she's been taught and she does run after him and

sort of put herself in danger. The gun probably wouldn't have been pointed at her if she hadn't left the car to go run to help Khalil Uh shows that there's a love there for him, just a friend love, maybe more because they did have a little kiss when they were younger, but a friend love that supersedes everything else and supersedes all of her training and conditioning to not do these things, and that in a way, the love is stronger been the hate that's been given by

the police and everything. Um yeah, I'm done. Yeah. And it was so interesting to see Khalil's reaction to the police because when you're when I was watching in the movie, I was with Star you're like, just just put your

hands on the dashboard, just do what he says. But you also recognize that like, yeah, from Khalil's perspective and from the world's perspective, like it is absolute bullshit, like the fact that the cop is treating him that way and the fact that Khalil has had to deal with that for his entire life, Like you're asking someone to behave I'm putting air quotes around this rationally in an

irrational system. And one detail I forgot to mention was that they're pulled over because of a broken tail light.

So it's not even for anything like any traffic violation, not that that would cause any more reason to be antagonizing the way that one fIF was, but it is like that is his life and just being you know, harassed constantly, and you understand exactly why you know, um, he's like that, but but you also, yeah, you were on star side outside of just like don't go back into the house, you know, don't go into the basement. You know, it feels like watching a horror movie. That's real.

There's no question in my mind that if Khalil had been white and been openly antagonistic with the cop. It would have been fine. I grew up in a wealthy white community. There were kids who got pulled over and told cops to go funk themselves, and it was like, well, we'll talk to your father about this, young match. Um. So yeah, I think it's very clear that this only happened because of race, and that he was so trigger happy that he was so ready to shoot at the

first sign of movement. I mean that is only because Khalil was black. I um. And they do go into that a little bit more in the movie than in the book, the trigger happiness of the white the white cop in the face of a black Uh. To use a word, I guess suspect I don't like using that word. But um. But something else that I thought, sorry, um

who um. Something else that I thought was really interesting was the choice to make it a more specific visible thing that Khalil didn't do in the in the movie, because in the movie it wasn't a broken tail light, it was failure to signal when changing lanes. And that also caused the mind of course Sandra Bland, who got pulled over for the same thing. And I thought that it was interesting, And there were a couple of things while watching the movie that made me wonder did a

white person write this? Which a white person did write this? And that was the first thing, especially because I could see watching the movie that his tail lights weren't out, and I was like, oh, is this guy's still gonna pull him over for a broken tail light? And in the book, there's no way to tell whether or not there was a legitimate, quote unquote legitimate reason to pull him over because we don't see the tail light at any point, so it doesn't matter whether it was something

that he did wrong or not. In the book, he was pulled over and then he was treated poorly. And this in the film version. I found it. I don't want to stay upsetting, but I found it interesting that one could justify them being pulled over objectively. I do. I want to point out not that this just I guess part of the conversation. Actually the screenwriter, Audrey wells Uh, died of cancer the day the day before it was released. Yeah, I also saw that God just its own weird tragedy,

But yeah I did. I was like, well, why out of every screenwriter in Hollywood may be with what a black person not right? This incredibly black species, every single screenwriter, just there's so many people. There was also a moment in the movie too that I found interesting that I was like, Okay, this might be attributed to having a white screenwriter. Is that they gave the cop a moment. You got to see there was a moment where the

cop realized that he had sucked up. And to me, that I think humanized it in a way that I don't agree with necessarily in that situation, it was copaganda. It's like it's Coppa. It was totally capaganda. And I

was like, ah, that wasn't exactly. They also made it so that Khalil was actively reaching for the hairbrush and like pulled the hair brush out, which in the book he doesn't do the same way, and then the cop like sees it and he's like ship And that's like what you were talking about, Like the moment where he's like, oh,

I sucked up. Um. I think like a decision to call him one fifteen throughout the book was like a really choice on Andrew's part for that reason that you're talking about, where it's like, for once, we're going to humanize Kali. Yeah, I really appreciated that choice and it felt so intentional throughout, Like, the only time you ever that, the only time you ever see him again is in this cappaganda interview with his father, and that's the only

time he is quote unquote humanized. But it is seen through the lens of Star, which is which I felt was of such a good choice because you were there with her, not with them, and it is intentionally capaganda. Absolutely, Yeah, it was very clearly. And I think they had mentioned before he's probably going to do these interviews, and that was one of the reasons that Starr was encouraged to also do an interview. All right, so here, maybe it's a good spot for for a little break. M hmm,

sounds great. This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn book Club. Yeah, do you want to handle the next part post shooting? Yes? Um, so, I think the cops do not help Khalil and he dies in the street, and it immediately triggers stars memory of another best friend of hers who is murdered. We find out that Star has a trio of best She's part of a trio

of best friends. It's her, Khalil and her friend Natasha and Natasha is murdered by a gang violence, UM, and it's kind of she's having this like flashback happening in that moment. UM. The next day we get back to I Believe uh stars home and she shares with her parents that she really doesn't want to share or want people to know that she was the witness at the shooting at the murder um and because she's afraid of

the backlash. She knows that this could be become a national news story and that she has seen what other witnesses have had to experience of like online backlash, harassment, death threats, um, and she doesn't want to put herself in that position. UM. We also learn in these in in this chapter that she has a love for Fresh Prince. UM, that she's a huge fan of Will because in some ways her and Will share a similarity in that they, you know, went to a mostly like a predominantly white

private school. UM, and she kind of like relates to Will in that way. And also she shares I think that's when we find out that her boyfriend also likes Fresh Prince to Chris, and that they have kind of shared a shared love of Fresh Prince. It's their high school love connection. UM. We also are introduced to Maverick uh Stars dad and his You know that he really has a lot of the with them, trying that a lot.

He takes a lot of his values in or follows the lives his life through the rules and principles of Black Panther Party and Black Power. UM. We learn about the ten point Uh program. UM. And then we also learned about stars relationship to King, that he is her godfather and that he kind of is this villain in the neighborhood. He is the big drug lord UM, and that him and Maverick her dad have had a history,

which we will learn about more later on. And I do think that we we briefly talked about it earlier, but it's important to just note very clearly that the boyfriend who also likes Fresh Prince Chris, he is white. Oh yes, Chris is white. UM. Very important to make

sure we know that. And and then we move on in Star weeks up from a nightmare and Uh finds her parents and Uncle Carlos are talking about the murder and Uncle Carlos wants start to testify, and it almost I mean, it's already complicated that Uncle Carlos is a cop. We find out that he's a cop, and he once

started to testify to almost maybe justify the shooting. He doesn't say it as much, but there's kind of an illusion of like trying to get to the truth of the matter, and that Khalil might have been a drug dealer and that maybe this is why this incident he keeps calling it happens and Uncle Carlos, as Scart started testify and she agrees despite being kind of terrified to

confront the police again. UM. We also learned at this time that Uncle Carlos has stepped in as a father figure while Maverick was in jail because Maverick was a part of the King Lords, which we learn more about later um, but that he actually went to jail because he took the fall for King, so we will learn more about later um. And then this chapter ends with I believe the fam visits Khalil's grandmother and we learned

that he was dealing. We again don't get the full picture and stars upset because we learned that Khalil's mother was an addict. And so it's interesting that we get these little tidbits about Khalil because almost as if Star is also stereotyping Khalil as like this person who was a drug dealer, how could he ever fall into that life? And she hasn't fully grasped the full picture of why someone like Khalil would have to resort to such resort

to something like that. Yeah, absolutely, I think that. Um, the thing about Carlos being the father figure becomes complex because there's this cop that she loves and there's this cop that she hates right now, and how do you reconcile those two things? And how do you fear and hate the cops but also love and care for your uncle who for the first like three or four years

of her life was the only father figure that she knew. Uh. And also we get this the scene where we do meet Khalil's mom, Miss Brenda, and she comes into the clinic where Lisa Carter Stars mom works, and she is crying. She's distraught. She's like, that killed my baby, and Star blames her and she gets angry and she says like, oh, now she wants to be his mother. And Lisa is much more sympathetic and she says, no matter what she's done,

she's still his mother. And he's still gone, and I think that that's an important and just this sort of running theme of family and parents. And also when we meet Maverick, we do get to find out a little bit more about like you mentioned the Black Panthers and then in the book. I found it really interesting that they got rid of this in the movie. Again, the thing that I was like, did a white person write this? Uh, the whole praying specifically to black Jesus and making that

not not Jesus, specifically black Jesus. And there's a lot of interesting religious stuff where they pray to black Jesus. But also Maverick seems to sort of adhere to some of the beliefs of the Nation of Islam and he gets upset that there's pork in his house and he's just like, don't eat that stuff. But he's not actually Muslim, and he's not there's no indication that he is active

in the Nation of Islam. Which I don't know if you all knew this, but the Southern Property Law Center qualifies as a hate group, um, which is really interesting. I did not know that. I mean, there's a lot of complicated stuff with some people and very anti Semitic things. Oh yeah, I didn't know about the until I saw it. I was like, oh yeah, this sounds like a hate group. Yeah, I would say, like like Louis Farrakon. It was who was that like influencer who quoted Ferrikon and was like

who is this guy? Like it was, Oh, yes, that was somebody I can't remember. Yeah. I think it was Women's Smart And I think it was Jamill Legimil who posted like a picture of Louis Ferakon and a and a quote from him, and it was like a good quote because you know, sometimes people with bad beliefs can say Hitler was a great man. Yeah, so you should maybe distance yourself from anybody who feels that way about Yeah. Yeah and so and so you're like, all right, there's

there's nuance here. Do you shouldn't. Let's let's not hate Jews or black people. I think that both. I think we can stand as a podcast and say, don't hate Jews, don't hate black people for being Jewish or for being black. If like a black person like says a mean thing to you, then you can be like, hey, you're a mean person who was also black. You don't have to

love every single black person. But like maybe if they say Hitler's great, don't Yeah, yeah, I'd like to go on the record of saying that Hitler was not a great man. He was a very bad man and a mediocre artist too. Well, I'm glad that we as a podcast are navigating these very controversial really well. I hope we get more episodes after this. I think it's so

interesting of Angie. I just want to go back to what you said, Karama about like, you know how the medias and story media and stories like to make like a monolith of black folks. And it's interesting that Maverick and Carlos are two very specific black men responding to white supremacy in different ways. One lives to fight it with his family in the neighborhood. The other arguably assimilates and wants to try and fix it from within, like to see and he is just doing so much with

this book. It's just like so important. I would say that each character navigates their blackness in a really different way. And um, I thought it was interesting that in the movie Lisa the mom had relaxed hair. Do you all know what it means to have relaxed hair? Is that a thing that you understand, not to like maybe you, but I just know that sometimes non black people don't know terms that are very common in the black community.

So for those of you listening who don't know what that means, relaxing your hair is when you chemically straighten it with a combination of chemicals like lie is one of them. If you haven't seen Chris Rocks documentary Good Hair, you should see it. It's incredible. Uh, it's like ten years old at this point, but it's still really important, really incredible to learn about black hair and just a lot of the hatred and stereotypes that come with having

black hair in various forms. And there are a lot of people who say that people who relax their hair are trying to quote unquote be white or try to assimilate.

And um, I thought that was an interesting choice because given the conversations that Maverick and Lisa tend to have about her wanting to leave the neighborhood and her being like, we need to move out of Garden Heights, that this needs to happen now that she was the one that had relaxed hair, and Starr has her hair and braids, which is a protective style for natural hair, and so stars kind of in this in between where she doesn't have her natural hair, like fully out, but she has

this decidedly black hairstyle that is more quote unquote palatable to white people. And I feel like they say a lot in the movie with visual cues, like early on when she's part of it, is like her mom uh drives her from their neighborhood to this uh more wealthy neighborhood into this predominantly white school and uh Starry is wearing a hoodie, and when she gets to school, she

pulls the hood off and takes the hoodie off. But then later in the film, when she finally sort of embraces both sides of herself and becomes decides to just be Star everywhere, when she confronts Haley, she's wearing a hoodie with a hoodie with the hood up, and I was like, oh, there it is. It's like it's part of her uniform still, like it's like a white uniform sweatshirt.

But it's clearly they made the choice to to communicate that visually, which I appreciated because otherwise I did sort of feel like the movie gave short thrift to um Regina Hall's character as Lisa Carter, and Regina Hall is like such a wonderful actress again, but I think that the movie. I think the movie didn't give her a lot to do, and she she blew me out of the water with what she did do. But yeah, I

think that the Mother. I felt like all of the women characters in the book, aside from Star or in the movie, aside from Star kind of got short change. Like they completely got rid of Nana, the grandmother character, and the and then the aunt, and April almost disappears she's been a little bit. But there were a lot of characters that sort of there's only so much time

that you can make a movie. And I just noticed that a lot of the cutting room floor stuff ended up being these strong black women in the story outside of star Um. But they also cut DeVante. Yes, I was very upset about cutting, which I was very surprised by, especially because Davante, I feel like, comes up very early on in the party where Kenya is there to beat DeVante's girlfriends asked in Asia because she's been fighting with

in Asia, which I appreciated. I appreciated that Kenya is not subtle and she's like I'm not going to psychologically sabotage her. I'm just gonna beat the ship out of her.

And sorry, you're gonna help he he also comes like becomes such an incredible like source of steaks and tension because I feel like once he is introduced, you're so worried about him the whole time of like you know, whether I don't want to get ahead of it, but it just it feels an he's such a beautiful character, like his growth and and Star's relationship with him, Carlo and Maverick, it's it feels like it's a real shape, Like he's just such a critical part of the story.

In my opinion. Yeah, I think he's sort of represented like the potential and risk of young black boys, like you know, the desperation with which Carlos and Maverick both wanted to save him. I think really commune. And it's

the first thing they agree on. It's literally the first thing that they agree on, and it's like, um, it's like Tan said, they are both navigating white supremacy in different ways with the assimilation and with the like black power response, but this is the one thing that they can agree on that they need to keep this man, this young man is safe, and they will work together to figure out a way to do it that works for both of them and works for both of their beliefs.

But this is where they can meet, is that they want to make sure that this young man lives and they want to make sure that he is okay, and they can do that. I just want to say, for contrast, in terms of the psycholotic the war fair that you do against a boyfriend's new girlfriend is my version of that. And a move that I have been told is in fact bullying. You know, it's bad. It's bad. I mean they're both bullying. Beating the ship out of someone is bullying.

A you know when am I? I found out that like my ex that I'm very close to started seeing this other girl and like he and I are very close, and I was like, okay, who is she? And I looked her up on Twitter and I just like liked a few of her tweets and he's like and then he immediately texted me and I was like, you can't do that, Dana. That is bullying that I haven't done that. This was this was like two years ago. I am recognizing and I am growing, Yes, it is Karama is

guest guest to which ex boyfriend. It is in it in the chat, and it is not trying to put you on blast in front of the world, but I did just want to know for that is uh, that is my version of going to a party and beating someone else. Okay, So, Um and I feel like they are both I don't want to say valid, because they're both horrible, but they are both recognized reactions to feeling like your quote unquote territory, territory has been infringed upon.

But I just like that we get very early on who Kenya is, and we do get to see a more nuanced version of Kenya as we move along, because Kenya is seven sister and seven is stars brother and Kenya's father I don't know if we mentioned this, but Kenya's father is king, which becomes a big deal later. But um, yeah, So we've talked about Khalil's mom, um, and I think it's time to talk about the police station and move on from there. Dana, do you want

to take that part? Yeah? Um. Starr agrees to go to the police station and testify about what she saw and what happened, sort of dealing with PTSD the entire time,

which is legitimate. She saw her friend murdered in front of her, and so she she goes to the police station, and these two cops uh interrogate her in a way that immediately makes it clear that they are trying to justify what when fifteen did to Khalil, Like they're, you know, framing the questions is such an important part of like what what lawyers do because it it, you know, immediately

reveals your perspective. And so they're they're talking to her in a way that makes her feel uh very much like she's not able to do justice to Khalil in the way that she wants to. She wants to communicate fully that like this cop pointed a gun at her too, which is a detail that she doesn't remember. I mean maybe she remembers, but a detail that she didn't end up telling the two cops until but she tells her

family later. It's like, I think, partly of repression and partly out of the way that like they framed these questions, so we basically get what I think, unfortunately is probably a very realistic depiction of what someone in that situation might go through. And she's sort of rescued from that

room by her uncle Carlos. And I think that that's the scene where we sort of see Carlos as a as a cop and he's like, I know one, um, you know, and he doesn't justify it, but offers the cop perspective, the perspective that I think the book serves by like the people online who's like, well, I know a cop and he's nice when people when people are protesting, there's always the people on Facebook who are like, well, some cops are just trying to do a good job

and do their job. And I think that's the perspective that Carlos voices, um, which isn't you know, a perspective that people deal with and interact with and have, And so I think it's worthwhile. I think it's worth And I thought it was interesting that in the book that's a perspective he holds at the beginning of the book and at the film's perspective holds at the end of the film. And I felt like we missed a lot of the growth from Uncle Carlos that we had in

the book, and it made him seem like a cop apologist. Yes, And I think Davante helped him with that growth in a way that we didn't get in the in the film, because yeah, at the beginning of the story, he is sort of like she. He sort of acts as the cop apologist voice perspective. Um. Although one thing I don't want to jump ahead too much, but one thing that I was curious to know, you your your guys perspective

on his very smart people in this movement. I've heard people being like, we have to reconcile the fact that, like the stories still end. I mean, the story still ends with King being arrested by the police, and that's a victory because King, you know, and I think that that is something that we culturally need to reconcile, like that is still a a victory for the story, which is the legal system working and functioning. And you know, people sometimes say when people when people protest and say,

arrest the cops that killed in certain name here. I mean, that's still operating within a broken system. And I think people may criticize this book for not going far enough, although you know, it's still a young adult novel that raises these essential points that and perspectives that I think so many people haven't even engaged with in the first place.

So I think, you know, maybe maybe that's not a necessary conversation, but it is one that I thought of and one that I thought maybe would be worth talking about. I mean, sociopaths do exist. Um, I don't think they are the perpetrators of most crimes. I think most crimes stem from desperation and from a lack of resources, and from a lack of education. But there are going to be serial killers who exist in the world, because psychopaths

are a real thing, and some people kill people for fun. Um, some people, you know, enjoy doing terrible things to other people. Some people are serial rapists. But I don't know if you mean the billions of dollars that currently go towards the police to take care of what I think is generally a smaller portion of people than the people that

the police are regularly called on. I think, um, at the moment, you call a police if you find like a dead body in an alley that has been stabbed multiple times, with like a note that says the dogs told me to do the best I have the dog killer. And you also call the police if a house party is too loud and it's midnight on a Wednesday, and maybe maybe those two people that you're calling should not

be the same. Yes, I heartily agree. Um, when I when I was in college, actually there was a party that was broken up by the police and it was a predominantly black party and they used pepper spray inside a room. Um wait from my freshman year. It was a party. Um, I think it was at Harambe, which was the diversity house. I can't remember if it was at Harambe for sure for sure, but I remember I

got two emails about it. One was from the black organization on campus that was sent to every black student, and then there was an email that was sent to the school at large that was like, hey, so there was an incident. And then the email from the black students are like, we cannot let this stand. They can't do this to us. This isn't right, and this doesn't happen to white people. And I will say that it didn't happen again in the four years that I was there.

It happened like in November of my freshman year. But it, uh, it's still stuck with me. It's something I think about a lot. And it was like we didn't have large gatherings of black people at my high school because there weren't large group numbers of black people, and so some of the things that happened when you have black people gathering together in a in a predominantly white space, I was shielded from. And it was sort of my first instance of that, and I was like, oh, this is

not a thing that just happens on TV. This is bad and could happen to me. Like if I had gone to that party, would I have been Okay? I don't know, um, And it was all fine, everybody was fine, nobody died. But I do think it is important to note that, like stuff like that still happens. And I think that with the issue of the cops being the victory in the book, I saw it more as or I tried to frame it at least as King not being in the community was the victory and the commun

unity not being afraid to snitch was the victory. And they had this like great reverse I Am Spartacus moment where they were all like King did it, Yeah, yeah, King did it. He did it. It was him, and everybody was brave enough to stand up for their community and get King out of it. And I think that's what's important, because that in that moment is the thing that can lead to a breaking of the cycle, because

you can't get out of the king lords. If King is there and it's beating you up, and it's setting your it is setting buildings on fire and all of that great stuff, great in quotes, uh, but it is a problem yet that this is sort of the system we have. I mean, I I do think King is a genuine subco path. Everything that he does seems indicative of I'm sure he had a very hard childhood too, but I also think he sets buildings on fire and beats his wife and uh kills children, and UM puts

people in terrible, terrible positions. And I don't think that community can function if you have someone who is a sociopath to that extent in a position of power. And I do think to your point, Krama, you know they there's a lot of talk and the movement to defund the police about UM community community organizing and communities coming together to stop and help the dangers in their own

community because they know it the best. Like King is the danger in that are not the only danger, but is the danger in that community, not Maverick, who is we'll talk about later, like has a very scary incident with the police. Is the police do not know who the danger is, so I to your I did see it that way too, of like, it's all of the community coming together to stop this threat um and that

felt like the victory, not the police arresting him. It also reminded me a little bit of that classic map Bars comic from the NIB where it's like someone saying, like a surf being like, we should improve society somewhat, and then the guy being like, and yet do you participate in society? Curious which we live in. We live in society, so we do have to like function within the society, but we can still work for towards its improvement. Right.

And the issue with calling for, say, an arrest to the cops that killed Brianna Taylor, for example, which as of recording this still has not happened. I think one has been fired, which is not what anyone asked for. Uh. It is a step, a minor positive step, but literally not the thing that anyone ask for. The problem is that if I kill someone, I get arrested, But if

a cop kills someone, the cop has no repercussions. There were three cops in that room and only one of them has faced any repercussions, and not to the level of repercussions that a civilian would face. And the problem is that the cops are above the law. And that's sort of the issue where it's like, if we live in a society and we are participating in society, then cops need to be a part of society too. They don't get to be outside of society and then punish society.

Isn't it crazy the idea that maybe the people who are enforcing the law with deadly weapons should be held to a higher standard than civilians. You know, we really shocked me when I realized how much training you is actually required to be a cop, because I believe it is lesson is required to become a beautician. Um. It is something like eighteen months worth of training, which strikes me as a very short amount of time to be given a gun and essentially no legal penalties if you

kill someone with it does grow back. So I think that the training to become a police dog in some instances is longer than the training to become a police human. Oh those sweet dog. UM. I also think that in a reference to like what the end of the book is saying. I know we're jumping ahead, but you know they are. Starr comes into her power and into her voice. But that one fifteen gets off scott free, and so it is and obviously that you know the rest of

the book happens, that there's more to talk about. But I do think that is the commentary on the system. It is not a happy ending in that story, and so you know, there are these small victories within this broken system, but it's still a broken system. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.

I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danis Schwartz with three z s. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Karama Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes and we're produced and edited by

Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week we will continue our conversation about the hate you give and the week after that, we have a very special guest that I'm very excited for you to listen to. Okay, spoiler alert, it is the author herself, Angie Thomas, an incredible, brilliant human being. You're definitely gonna want to stay tuned. Uh and if you want to get a jump start on reading our next book, it is Brave New World,

getting ready to pair with the Peacock original series. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio. See you next week.