Normal People (Part 2)

show and got to the nak parts. At the risk of sounding like the creepiest pervert in the entire world, I'm so excited. Here we go. Yeah, thank you for listening. Let's get into it. I think right now we're at college. Connell has you know, come into their friends group. Um, this is a place where Marian has more social capital over him, and he is someone who is both worth off financially and is having a little bit of a tougher time fitting in. Jennifer, you want to sort of

take the next step. Um. Yeah, so she we've touched on this a little bit, but she has an apartment in the city. Um of where Connal is working at a restaurant. I think the restaurant shuts down or he

gets fired. Um, and something happens. Um. If he's going to spend the summer in the city, he needs to find a place to stay without paying any rent, and he wants to ask Marianne if he can stay at her place, and he kind of has a conversation planned out in his head, and then he never is able to articulate that, I just want to move in with you for the summer. I want us to be together in the way that you know, it wouldn't be that big a deal if you'd been dating someone for a

significant amount of time. And it seems like he had been staying like most nights at her place. He was already there most nights, and yeah, yeah, um, so that does not happen, and that's kind of parting of the ways for them again. I think that scene, which I do want to talk about zoom in a little bit in focus, was the most effective use of the book's device, which is switching between their perspectives the book chapter my chapter.

We get a story from Maryann's side, and then we you know, either jump forward in time or just flipped to Connal's side. And I think that scene seeing it from hearing it, I think first we hear mary Anne's memory of it, playing out where he just sort of said, like, well, I'm going back and I want to see other people, and she's sort of is heartbroken about it, and he sort of breaks his own heart accidentally because he doesn't know how to say, Hey, I'm you know, don't have

enough a job right now? Can I live at your apartment? Which is a you know, embarrassing thing to say, but with a girlfriend, the type of intimacy that you hope someone would have. Melissa, what do you What did you make of that scene? I mean it broke my heart because it felt like I felt like I've had those conversations in my like college and post college is where I like can't quite say the thing that I planned

to say. Like that was a moment where I did feel like sympathetic and related to Connell, where there was something embarrassing or like a little bit It's something that I would feel and secure bringing up and then I just don't, you know, like I like write it down and like figure out the words, and then I just don't say it. And I think that is so common, and it's like that heartbreak of like if one of them had just said what they wanted it would have

they would have not broken up. I mean it's embarrassing for Connell. He I mean, I think Salarly Rooney establishes really well, like the fact that his mom is a what did we say, house house cleaner house? Yeah, um, I mean that is you know, in in especially in like young people. I think that is not humiliating a nor more job, but as type of subservience that I think for insecure people, uh does communicate this sort of

embarrassing position. And I think it what is something that Kneal is embarrassed to say, like I can't afford the situation right now? Do you think that's part of why he relishes his power over Maryanne so much that now he has complete power over a girl whose mother used to be her housekeeper, and yet he didn't use his power, Like if you have complete power over this person and you need a place to stay, why why couldn't you

do that? What do you what? What do you guys think was his big Maybe thought would have put him in a position for he would have had to have seen himself as powerless. Yeah, he's spending his power giving her power over him. That definitely was a moment that I felt most sympathetic to Konel as well, and then

remember that like he's like one. I would have felt the same way to have just like being this person who you're in college and you want to think that you're an adult that can like live and work and like provide for yourself, and to be in this relationship that you haven't labeled or like is in a kind of weird gray zone. I would have been the same move just like not knowing what to say or feeling too embarrassed to say, and like that that weird gap of feeling immature and also that I should be a

full formed adult at felt it brought me back. Yeah, yeah, And I went to a college that had a lot of wealthy people, and I was friends with a lot of wealthy people and I was not wealthy, and it was it was the same in high school, but in college it was different because you have you you stay in place that you stay in different kinds of apartments. You either you're working in college or you're not working.

And I think it's the first time where you really see that divide between friends where it is you have to make different choices and so one you're learning how to be an adult, even if you're not fully an adult yet, and I feel like you bungle that a lot of the time. And at the same time, like Maryanne doesn't recognize her privilege and realize that, like oh'connell doesn't have a job, he might need something that I

have never thought to need, you know. And another thing that the book establishes about Connell's central personality trait early on in high school is like he is someone who is terrified of rocking the boat in any way, of like being a burden or a strain on the smooth flowing system in any capacity where it's like as someone who would rather stab myself than ask a human being for anything. Ever. Um, that is something I'm working on, but it's like something I relate to very very uh profoundly.

I do wonder if the option were instead of the option in the book right now as it's stands, is that he had to either stay in Dublin with her or go back to Karrickly when he can't afford rent. Yeah, right, so he can't afford rent, but he will have a place to stay either way, if it were either homelessness, like genuine homelessness, or staying with her, do you guys think he would have opened his mouth and said something.

Do you think because he had a safety net of staying with his mother and karrically that he didn't say anything. And it was just because when because when he was mug when he was robbed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was very comfortable when he was Melissa asking for well and

also like asking for money. He was ashamed of it, but then like happily took the hundred dollars and did it in it even then while he was breaking her heart, which was so like, oh, by the way, I have a girlfriend and I'm just mad you have a boyfriend. That that was a bad look for Conall as she literally told him get out, and he was like, yeah, but couldn't have that money me first, But it was needed to your point, it was the need. He did

need it. He needed to get to get a right to get a cab home, so he did ask her for the thing. Let's when it was dire. Let's talk about that scene, Jennifer. You want to dive back in

and walk us through this really bad, really painful. I actually do want to talk just a little bit in general, if we can about Conal's relationship with money, because it's kind of fascinating to me, especially if we're supposed to have a Marxist reading on this book, that Conal's fantasy of what he'll do with his life is he'll go off and become a lawyer and he'll make like, he'll make a really solid amount of money. And that's what

he initially thinks he's going to do and living. He's going to make a comfortable living and people are going to say he did well. Um. And the minute he gets a scholarship and he has disposable income, he talks about how dirty and sexy it feels. Um and um. I I think that's an interest in money that we never really see from Marianne because she never needs to

think about it in that way. And um. Yeah. The scene that we're talking about where he gets mugged, Maryanne is having a party, um, and he goes over to her house. Her boyfriend is there at the time. He goes over to her house, kind of stumbles in, very drunk and just having been mugged, and tells her tells her that he needs money and he needs help getting home, and also he has a girlfriend. He's burning to mary Anne.

I think that it's worth, it's well. He says that her number was the only number that you could remember by that right, which I think also is emblematic of the fact that this is a modern story and not like a jay No novel. Dress stop. But I think that it's important to say that he tells her that he has a girlfriend after he says that he would rather she date literally anyone other than Jamie, including the

guy who just nu him. Yes, that's true. YEA quick A quick note on the only knowing her number by heart.

I thought that was a very sweet and nostalgic sort of memory about high school and like you're the friends you have growing up, because I don't know anyone's numbers, but I still know like my elementary school's best friends home number by heart and my brain where it's like you have that sort of weird intimacy with people that you're friends with and close with when you're young, that you kind of never get with people that you meet and are friends with when you're older, which is sort

of something that Connell and uh Marianne come to again and again. So I found that detail, whether it was on purpose or not, like very evocative. But about the dropping of the break up with your boyfriend. He sucks. Please date anyone else. Also, I have a girlfriend. Friend, it's basically break up with your girlfriend because I'm bored by Ariana Grande. Yeah, Melissa, did you have a response

to that scene? I mean, I think that was one of the worst scenes I thought for Connal to me of like, you know, he comes in in a sympathetic way. Of course he got mugged, like he's very vulnerable. But then I mean, Marianne just literally kicks everybody out and including her boyfriend. I mean, her boyfriend sucked. But that's beside the point to to tend to Connall and like have her full attemps, full attention, and then he just

ships on the boyfriend. I mean again rightfully so, but then just burying the lead of like, by the way, I have a girlfriend, and like how hurtful that is? And it again is a moment like Deb's where he refuses to understand why it's so hurtful, you know, like he doesn't he waits and he knows that he shouldn't wait, and he just keeps repeating these same mistakes of like waiting to tell her different gold information and then refusing to take responsibility for the effect, even though he knows

it to be. It's almost like the power had to shift because there was the imbalance of she had financial power over him, because you know, she needed her to pay for the cab and give her money and take

care of him. That almost like an unconscious thing like like the uh you know how water when you pour it like reaches a level like their power dynamic had to go back to their level, which is Connall having power and I have a girlfriend, okay, back to neutral such another like again just him, I think, being emotionally manipulative, like he knows he has that power over her, like dominance of her emotions, like he knows that from the

jump from the beginning. So like that scene of him telling Marianne about Helen, I think I was like, fuck you, Connall, you piece of ship like that like you to me, it just felt like he knowingly purposefully said it to hurt her, Like I don't know if he did honestly, don't credit I don't. I don't think he did it

on purpose. I think that you're right that he's emotionally manipulative, but I think he's the worst kind of emotionally manipulative where he doesn't even know he's doing it half the time. He thinks he's a good guy. I don't think he did it on purpose. I think he's just like, she has a boyfriend. I should tell her this. He's like, he's the baby wants it all. He just wants um.

I have the theory about Donald Okay, well my theory my secret ending for this book is I think he's going to go off to New York become an investment manker Mary the first model he needs, send any long rambling email to Marry Anne about it um and just leave her devastated in Ireland and feel like he has a ton of money now and a ton of power over people. And he's gonna buy like a vulgar sports car I do kind of thing in New York. Yeah, she's a car in New Yard. It's not even going

to drive it. He's just like, in case he wants to go up to the Hampton's for the weekend, in case you're like any cool parties that he was going to get an m f A in writing and then write the book about them. And then she reads the Great conn is Sally Rooney. Yes, oh no, it's I don't necessarily think that it's like a prequel version. It's the Carry Diaries version of the last five years. I love the Carry Diaries. I love it so much. And

I'm so glad you mentioned that show. Not because I'm gonna elaborate any further, just because people need to remember that show. Lovely show, right he was such a sweet show. I never saw it, and now I just I'm tuning like so sweet. I'm a fake for right now, just like really great. It's very lovely and very enjoyable to watch. Much like this show, I really think that for now, I think we should just like take a second breathe, come back to it later. Yes, there's clearly more to say,

so much to discuss. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for my Heart Radio. We'll be right back after this quick break, all right, so let's get back into it. I actually wanted to talk about something I wrote it down about the no no no. It is about normal people, I promise, and it's about the show adaptation. And I am tragically American and so nudity on screen is always

kind of a shock for me. And this show had not like an like an extravagant amount of nudity, but it had like full frontal male nudity in a way. It was very shocking to me. I was like, oh, right, sometimes men are naked, and it was really interesting to me to see this nudity because it felt like it was about vulnerability and not about sexuality, and it wasn't

like this male gaze nudity. And I just wanted to know what you guys thought about that, for those of you who watched the show and got to the naky parts. At the risk of sounding like the creepiest pervert in the entire world, I did. I thought that the nudity was really well done and it didn't feel hyper sexualized. I thought when she was nude, um, it felt you know, very like vulnerable and I hope respectful. I mean, it can't speak to how it was filmed and how she

feels like, I hope good. But I did like that it It always wasn't like, oh boom, sexy hot, so it was, well, she is notoriously flat chested, so I don't think it was ever going to be you know, what can be sexy hot Karama, Yeah, but I didn't mean it that way. Nearly a cups rule who felt like I disrespected that I just met. From a filmic point of view, I don't think that they were going to focus on the breast area as like I did.

I did notice that the first time they showed her nudity, it was like it cut to a wide a two shot of the two of them and it was not a sexual not like they were about to have sex, but it was one of her awkward early lines where it's like, should we take all all our clothes off? Now? Like it was just very unsexual, and that's I feel like that was the presentation of it. It was like setting the tone of how that would all transpire. It was very now. It felt reminded me obviously very different

but of hustlers like that, Um it was Whstlers? Is that the right the movie about? Yes? Um? I was like, oh no, is that the Anne Hathaway movie where she I think that movie is also called I Think the Hustle, And then of course it's American Hustle with Jennifer Lawrence all the hustling. But it was like it was intimate and sexy without it being from the male gaze. It felt very like romantic and open rather than like objectifying

a woman. I think they also probably had to be conscious of the fact that even though these actors are in their twenties, these are portraying high school students, and so they don't want it to be like porny where it's like these barely legal teens. In my head reading the book, I was never thinking of them naked, which

might be my own stuff, but I was like their children. Yeah, I mean, but they're still There's still teenage shows and movies that don't show nudity that are way more objectifying of teenage girls Riverdale, like gossip Girl, they were like stripping, Like there's a lot of that involve high school students, high school female students, like putting on stripped teases, which is not something we did in our high school that

I was ever invited to. UM. It did throw me off a little that they are so beautiful in UM in the first scene, because I remember in the book they're like such wonderful, vivid details, like her underarms being all kind of white with deodoring because she smeared a lot of chalky deodorant on and um, yeah, sure, we

we all have deodorant. It's not a secret, but yeah, those are details, so you know, obviously when you see it on the screen, there's not gonna be like a camera shot of like, oh, there's an awkward amount of deodorant showing. Now I did balk at her matching underwear set. There's not. They say that it's kind of like old not beautiful. Yeah, I will say, I the show is so beautiful, Like it looks so visually beautiful, and like

the music is really like beautiful and pleasant. But it's so beautiful that at some points, I if I zone out. I am not sure whether or not Hulu has come back from commercial break, because all the commercials right now are like really beautiful and calm, and they're like to do do do, and these uncertain times, the vibe of the show of like these like soft close ups of

beautiful young people running on the beach. If you put a voice over, it's like, in these uncertain times, connection is all we had, Like like the vibe of the show is very beautiful, pandemic commercial. Yeah, I also will say I've been watching it. My boyfriend and I share one bedroom apart ment, and so we have like headphones that we can connect to our TV. And he didn't watch the show, and it was just like, every time I look over, there's just like naked teens on the screen,

and I'm like, I'm so sorry. It's like, this is the show that is in fact what this show is sexy teen, sexy horn sexy horny team. You mentioned the music, and I will say I was a little disappointed that they didn't film the show as a period piece because it does specifically take place between the years of like two thousand eleven and two thousand and there was a

mention in the book. They mentioned specific songs and albums and stuff in the book and they talked about Watch the Throne by jay Z, and I was like, that's what I wanted. I mean, I did love that there was a scene where they were making out to Carly Rae Jepson, because Carly is my girl. Carly, if you're listening, I worship you. You're not listening, but you need to

know someone tell her. But um, I think that there's something really humbling about recent period pieces because it's just a reminder that like ten years ago, we all wanted to wear Von Dutch Trucker hats. You know, we were all so embarrassing. The most embarrassing thing about me is that in high school we all were like gaucho pants that ended at the widest part of your calve, and then ugg boots that ended just an inch below the

gaucho pants. And then also a big thing that I was like begging my mom to do because I saw all the Disney Channel stars do it was We're like a skirt or dress on top of jeans, which is I mean, I did that, and I feel like I pulled it off. If you showed me a picture now I'd burn it, but I feel like it was look and that that for me. Also, I wanted that for the show and I wanted them to live in that time.

There was that scene before Deb's the dance, the fundraiser dance, where she goes to because she was they say on the committee may be voted on as a joke, which is sort of sweet and sad um, where she really goes all out as they say, and they're playing very backwards, you know, very retro music by our standards, and she is sexually assaulted by one of the boys and Connell defend that's the closest that moment is the closest he

comes to publicly, Yeah, showing than he's him for it, Yeah, mercilessly? Did you ride her last night? And he's like, I took her home? Yeah, He's like, I just said that you shouldn't grab a woman's boob in public, and just like I thought it was funny. Isn't Karen the only one that's like kind of nice to Marian in them? Ye? Shout out to Karen. But you know, bare minimum whenevery in high cool when everyone else is being a monster.

It takes a lot of bravery to stand up. It takes bravery to stand up to your enemy is but it takes a great deal more to stand up to your friends. Invented off the top of my head for this podcast, such a great writer, but no standing. I think being a high schooler and saying like, hey man, that's not cool is like an act of bravery, even if it is the bare minimum. Yes, But I also feel like I feel like it's worth talking about the

title of the book. And I know we have more plot to go over, but I also think that it's really important to talk about the title of the book. It's called normal People. Do we think that these people are normal? Or do we think that it's about their aspirations to be normal. What is normalcy? What is normal? Like? I found myself asking that a lot. I was like, is this called normal people? Because we're supposed to think

that they are normal people? And I don't think that normal necessarily means right or good, but it does mean typical. I kept being back to that because Connal says pretty repeatedly like he feels abnormal and like he wants to feel normal, and not just like I'm objectively as a reader at arm's length, you're like conall you are. You are a handsome dude going to college, having a girl's dating someone with a nice mom. Like if anything, they seem unusually talented like UM. I I understand that they

have problems in their lives. Everybody has problems in their lives. But they are too exceptionally bright um at least in the TV show, exceptionally hot young people who UM are clearly like good enough to be getting like scholarships in the arts at UM at a very prestigious college and living abroad for a time. They Okay, again, I know they have problems. I recognize that Connel is depressed. Marianne has a frighteningly abusive family. Other than that, like they

seem abnormally blessed in a lot of regards. I think even the fact that they're dealing with that makes them even more abnormally blast. Yes, And I think that having a thing that you're dealing with is very normal. I mean, if someone was a Kendall who literally was perfect, that would be abnormal. I think that someone functioning in the world is a smart, competent, competent person with friends and dealing with you know, trauma or family hardship or depression,

like that is a normal situation. But I think that's the point, Like it is that they both feel so abnormal, and we see as the readers, we all are relating to one or the other at certain points that they are there, that they are as normal as any one can be, and they are also exceptional in their own ways,

as everyone is, you know. I feel like I like related to this striving to be normal in high school and college and what the normal was in the culture that I was living in, like buying the north Face jacket like you did, Dana in like in Chicago, in college like it, you know, and always feeling like I didn't fit in and how to be more normal. And I feel like growing up is embracing what is not

normal about Melissa. I don't want to blow up your spot, but I do have to say, you've posted that picture of you in a sorority and you oh my god. I would just say, guys, you look very somal. I listen, it was a lot of work to look that normal. It was like everyone in at Northwestern, it was like everyone was in a It was like half the school was in a sorority. So I was too. And they're like all got spray tans, so I did that. They all had highlights, so I did that. They all had

a north face, so I did that. You know, like it was just trying to fit in as desperately as possible. Um. Gil Nol Coward has a great quote from Private Lives that nobody is ever completely normal, really deep down in their private lives, and um, you know, I think that that fits in here, that um, everybody is normal and everybody does have their own issues, and there's no such thing as a completely normal person, even if they do

look incredibly hot from the outside. I think that that is the self power of the title that uh, most of that you're touching on so eloquently, the idea that like the irony also for the characters and as a relationship between them and the readers, as the readers were all relating so profoundly and projecting our experiences onto them. The normalcy of these characters is evidenced by the fact that this book is so popular and being praised is

so relatable. But obviously these characters don't know that they're in a very popular, widely related to book. That's their

their tragedy. Yeah, and to build of what Jennifer, what you were saying too, it's that like, deep down normal is all of us having our own abnormal intimate emotional like up and downs all the time, which I was like, yeah, this reminds me of people I know, people like myself, like dear friends, family, Like we are all experiencing different levels of like depression and hardship in our own lives,

whether like remarkable or not, you know. And the and even the most aberrant behavior that the character's view as the most abnormal, which is like they're like, uh slight you know, B D S M. I will say, as an adult feels very normal, like I normal experimentation with bondage and d s M is like a very normal thing that all most most of do, you know, whether it's their jam or not, just a very normal thing.

They're not doing anything that aberrant. I thought it was very peculiar that that became the thing that was Marianne's undoing socially. Yeah, again, maybe it's Ireland Maybie. Irish people don't misu teachers. I think they just love gossip, you know what I mean. And and their friend groups sucked, like she just had a bad group of friends besides Joanna, like Peggy and and Jamie was just a monster, you know. I think that's it that it was like they hate gossip.

And to circle back to a thing that someone said earlier, this idea that like you need one friend you can tell you like your experience is valid and you're this is how a person should or should not be treating

you like that is the most fundamentally important thing. Like I remember, like if ever you have a person like treat you badly or is rude to you, like the most validating thing in the world is another human being being, Like I noticed that it's not you, you know, like like someone and like if Conna's treating Marianne badly, if she had a friend who's like, hey, that is not how you should be treated, I am also viewing that, and your experience is valid. Like normalcy is something that

exists as a social contract between people. We decide what's normal, and both characters so fundamentally need that person to be like, this is normal, that's okay. The feelings that you're having are fine, let's accept those things. Also, a therapist will serve that. One of the most um one of my favorite Marianne moments in the entire book is when her brother spits on her and her mother is like, oh, Marianne, if you can't handle a little sibling altercation, how will

you exist in the real world. And Marianne says, well, yeah, when I'm at work, I don't think anybody's gonna spit on me. I think they probably get fired for that. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, oh my god, Yes, you realize that that's not normal. You figured it, Yeah, well it is

to that point. It's like with therapy or a good friend, it's like they will say two things which are important that like certain things that you're feeling or doing, or the ways you behave are normal, but also that certain ways that people treat you are not normal, and you

do not deserve to be treated like that. And you will have a boyfriend who will touch you in public and who will not like be ashamed of you, and will want to like be with you like and and we will abuse is not normal, and like that, all the things, the things you don't have to accept. I think as well, that's so important therapy, that's very I

think this is a big advertisement for therapy therapy. I think in terms of plot, we talked a lot about, you know, Mariann's time in Sweden, Like, I think we did cover that, and I think a lot of what well we didn't cover what led up to that, which was her relationship with Jamie. Oh yes, I wonded. Well, I was saying I forgot the order, but I wanted to talk about the scene of the house in Italy, in Italy, which I do think sums up her relationship with Jamie really well, Karama, do you want to set

that scene? Oh yeah, I will set that scene. So this is after the scholarship, So Marianne gets a scholarship, she's studying. I guess what's the equivalent of political science and Connal is studying English. They both get scholarships in their respective programs. Conal then, after receiving his scholarship, goes on like a euro trip where he goes with his roommate Nil, who is a real one love Nile importive, He's a good friend. He is the Joanna of Conic.

And he goes on this trip with Nile, and I think they have like another friend that gets erased in the show, Elaine I think her name is. And they end their trip in Italy and they go to this like tiny villa that mary Anne's family owns, and they spend some time with mary Anne, Peggy, Jamie and uh and then the three of them Elaine, Nile and Connal. So at this event they're all having dinner together. There is an issue, of course, with the fact that Connal

is there because Jamie is extremely jealous of Connall. In mary Anne's words, he is the tall guy that used to suck his girlfriend. And it's it ends up in this altercation with Jamie and Maryanne where Jamie starts breaking glasses so similar to what her brother does to actually and I'm sure that's very emotional for her. And nobody but Connal does anything about it. I will say, it's

not Nile's business to do anything about it. And Nile actually calls Jamie out for being super racist when they were talking about going to Venice, and he's like, oh, it's just Asian people taking pictures, and and he was like, God forbid you see an Asian person. Ni. Nile is the best. Yeah, Nile is great. And uh. Then after so after Conal goes runs after Marianne, she spends the night in his room, and she then confesses to him that she has this abusive relationship with her brother. She's

already confessed to him in high school. I think it was that her dad would hit her mom. Her dad is deceased. I don't think we've ever mentioned that before, but she doesn't have a dad right now. And that's when Conal then decides it's a great idea to try and hook up with her again, even though he has a girlfriend. Her boyfriend's in the same house as them, and she is clearly traumatized by the situation with her

boyfriend and how it reminds her of her brother. So that's and then she leaves and goes to Sweden and doesn't come back for like a year. It is almost the a again, like a bizarro flip on what happened. I think in high school after Deb's where she just retreated and didn't know respond his emails and dropped out of school. It's this idea that she has handled the

situation and her response is to retreat. And oh and also in this section is the only time they ever really talk about their social class differences and their socioeconomic class differences. Uh. And She's like, you know, I am acutely aware of the fact that we met because your mom was my housekeeper. And I was like, are you because I feel like you've never made that clear to anyone. Um,

which it's fine, but just don't lie. There's that point in the in the TV show I don't remember what the line exactly was in the book where uh Condall's girlfriend Helen is talking about the fact that he's like, yeah, Marianne had a fucking villa in Italy. Of course that's Marianne.

And I was like, that is very funny to me how someone else in this circumstance sees this situation, which is that your boyfriend's like very pretty ex girlfriend who he's obsessed with all the time in this weird relationship. He's just she's off on her summer Italian villa. Yeah.

I felt really bad for Helen. Yeah, that's another reason why I didn't like Condle, Like he was treating another woman poorly and writing, I don't have email correspondences with anyone that's not my girlfriend, so like pact that he's writing these long email correspondences. It's like And the thing that bummed me out about that too, was that was that he it wasn't like he didn't like his girlfriend, like it was still would have been bad, but it wasn't like Helen, I don't know how to break up

with her. It was more he was like he looked forward to the FaceTime or the Skype video with her because he thought I loved how pretty she was and how much heat she liked him. And it was this like ego thing of like how he got off on the feeling afterward of her looking at him with this doting affection and it was like just using her for this ego boost while while then still being in love with his ex girlfriend. I found it very telling that we never at any point learn how the two of

them met. Yeah, yeah, it's like not important to this

story because she's not important to him. And to jump to jump ahead a little bit in the story when uh, Connell has a high school friend who commits suicide and they returned back for the funeral um and how he asked Helen to come with him, which is a really intimate thing to do, like you know, to to bring your significant other to your hometown for an emotional funeral, and he spent the whole time not introducing Helen to anyone, which is a repeat of the sort of behavior he

did with mary Anne, even though Helen is you know, beautiful and is not weird and there's no social stigma into dating Helen, and and also is staring at Maryanne

the whole time. So I feel like there could have been an entire short story from Helen's perspective, your longtime boyfriend just being a maniac, and which is sort of like how when you go back have you noticed that when you go back to your hometown or like if you spend a lot of time with your parents and like your child at home, you like revert back to your teenage self. Yeah, Like I thought that scene was

Connell becoming the worst version of himself. He was a repeat of how you know, the how he treated Marianne in high school. Yea, And that little fight they have to where Helen is like, You're kind of like, oh, she's being like wild to try to pick a fight at his friend's funeral, But in my mind, I'm like, no, he's being a total asshole. Yeah, I got it. I mean, I'm like, it was awful, but I mean it felt like a woman who just had had it and she didn't know how to keep it in anymore. That's what

it felt like it was. I felt I felt so bad for her breaking. I was looking for that section after the funeral in my book, and which was difficult to find because there are no quotation marks. I just want to just remind you all that. But she says, well, if you didn't want me to come, you shouldn't have

asked me. And then, instead of doing the normal thing of saying I'm sorry, I clearly didn't handle this well, which may be a good friend or a therapist might encourage you to, he says, Okay, I'm sorry I asked you. That brutal just blew my mind with my justice for Helen. He does not know how to apologize. No, he doesn't know how to do very many things. I just I don't understand. Like I think we were when we were talking about Marxism and how it relates to the book.

I think it was Tienne who mentioned something about emotional intelligence and I was like, who has it? Which one of them brings that to the table? No one, Joanna is the only one, and Lorraine, let's talk about it. Ran for emotional intelligence, we should have Nila and Joanne get together. Joanna's definitely stig Helen. Nila and Nil and Helen. I mean, I think Nila and Joanna would be great friends and go on adventures together. I would leave the

hell out of that bar Um. Wait, one more incredibly disturbing scene that we have not touched on at all, and I'm almost very sorry to bring this up. We have been talking so long, but we have not talked about this the teacher, and that feels like a really important moment to me because it's a moment where she, Marianne, really stands up for him and so said, if that teacher does that to him again, she will kill her.

So who want who wants to be the one who describes the scene, I'll do it volunteer is But I do want to say that I felt like the way it was handled in the book did more for their relationship than the way it was handled on the show. Um. But the way that it was handled in the book, because this is the podcast where we talked smart about books, is that there is this teacher. I think she was an economics teacher. I cannot remember her name. I don't want to say her name even if I do remember it,

because she is the worst. Uh So, early on in the book, it's established that she like giggles with Connell a lot, and he's very uncomfortable with it, and everybody thinks that he has a crush on They make fun of him. Yeah, they make fun of him for the fact that he has a crush on her, and he's like, I literally don't and Marianne's like, maybe it's because you blush when she talks to you, but you just kind of have that face and uh So. Then later on, when Connal is back home, he's on an off again

situation with Marianne. At this point, I think she might be in Sweden. Um. Yeah, he goes out, it's Chris, it is Christmas. Yeah, she does. She specifically doesn't come home for Christmas, and he's like, well, I I don't think I've ever gone a year in my life without

seeing you. I think that might have been added in the show, but I think that it is important to speak to their relationship where even when they weren't close, even before they started sleeping together, she was a presence in his life and now she's not, so he's kind of unmoored and sad, and he goes out to the pub and he runs into this economics teacher that he had in high school, and they dance and they drink, and then she goes. She takes him back to her place,

and uh. He is very drunk and does not want to engage in any sort of activity and kind of tries to brush it off and does not say no, I don't want this, please go away explicitly, but is very very clear in his actions, I'm not interested in this, which should be enough. Gives every sing and also talks about how drunk he is. Does men he is the adult in this situation. I don't care that he's ship is such that she's the adult and she should be like, oh, right, Jimmy.

She never should have done anything in the first place, and it was clear that she was just waiting to pounce. She's garbage, she's a predator. But then she she starts to touch him in his nether regions and he then I don't remember if he leaves or if he vomits, or if he says he's going to vomit and then leaves, but there says he's going to vomit, he says he's going to be sick, and then he leaves and he

has no idea how he gets home. So he's clearly like exceedingly intoxicated, and he feels gross about the situation, and which just taken advantage of, as you say, to be clear that teacher is a predator. Oh yeah, I think that there is. I'm really glad that she wasn't an English teacher because I feel like the trope is usually the English teacher is the one that's the predator, like pretty little liars Ezra is like with Aria, but

also with that's what you're saying, Yeah, no, predator. English teachers are a thing in media which I think needs to star. I think it's because because it's easy to write if you're like, let's talk about Romeo and Juliet, and like they get closer and closer, and and they're going to quote different sonnet as they like smell your hair. I feel like trigonometry is real sexy. I had a crush on my priulist teacher in high school, and it's

because it's a good challenge. And it's because I feel like teaching English, as opposed to, like Matt teaching math, is very like prescriptive, Like there are certain stuff where it's like it is easy to both write and portray. As most was saying, like you can come at a text from a way that feels like fresh an intimate. You know, you know, it wasn't Shakespeare the first rapper, I was going to say, but it's like that that's

so yeah, so you know. Um, one of the things that was so interesting to me is that they established really early on the first of all, this is not every man's fantasy. I think a lot of the time of when we hear stories about girls having sex with their high school teachers, it's rightly painted us a predatory relationship. Um that yeah, that is that is bad. And everybody

seems pretty much on the same page about that. But when we hear about like a fifteen year old boy having sex with his English teachers, everybody's like, Oh, he's pretty lucky. Huh wish that had been my teacher, and um, and that's weird and it's uncomfortable and we shouldn't keep

doing that. And I think that's why it's so important that at the beginning, it's not like, oh, yeah, Connal has this mutual crush on his team tour and they'd love to funck but they can't because he's under Now it gets to happen, and that is so clearly what's not happening there. It's so clear that this is absolutely predatory on her part um. It is not like another girl his own age who is also drunk and really

wants to talk up with this hot guy. It is an adult preying upon someone who is a child as far as they are concerned. Yeah, okay, I think this is a good emotional stopping point. We need to take a step away from it for a moment and then come back. I feel overwhelmed by the two of Yeah, all right, thanks guys, I'm going to take a quick break and we'll be back with more Popcorn book Club from My Heart Radio. Okay, we're back with Popcorn book Club. I feel like now we are stre of circling the

ending of the book. I think between it's raw, is it Rob's suicide? Yeah, Rob, Rob's suicide? Um, and then the final sort of and I'm like gesturing with my hands the way that Marianne and connall come together again only to come apart with what I think marian hopes is a newfound understanding and uh of themselves and each other. Whether that works successfully for you or not, Melissa, do you want to describe sort of the plot thrust from Rob's funeral to the ending? Sure? Yeah, so we've covered

Rob's funeral, He and Helen. He doesn't treat Helen well. Uh. He sees Marianne for the first time in a long time. She's looking incredibly thin, um and frail, and uh they she Connad breaks up with Helen, and Donald goes through a very deep depression. That's kind of the next phase of it where he a very very serious depression where he's having suicidal thoughts and he can't he can't like

bring himself from the floor to the bed. Like it's a really dark depression, and he goes and for Nile pushes him because now's a bud uh to go seek counseling, and finally yes, and so he goes, and he gets on medication in spite of himself, like he doesn't want to reveal things to his therapist how bad it really is. Um. And then Marianne drops out of school again for a

little while, goes home. I'm kind of the ending kind of all blends together because it's less like incidents, there's less there's there's no some piece is this it were My understanding wasn't that she dropped out of school again. It was that it was summertime. But the I can't remember because it gives a date at the beginning of every chapter, but it then goes it's like a period. It's like the beginning date of a period of time,

and they'll move forward and move back. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's why it made it seem like she wasn't sure if she was going to return to school, like she was in a bad place as well. Um. And then it does it jump to the New Year's and Christmas? Is that the next period where he goes where she goes home with him at least that's the big event

that I think we should focus on. When she does go home with which yes, which was like the final sort of moment where they're together in the book, and she reluctantly goes home because Lorraine, again one of the best characters in the book, says you must come home with me, or to come be with our family, and so she does, and it's very warm and cozy, and it's like this real glimmer of happiness of like what their relationship could be if Conald just gave into it

um And but in this moment he does like they had. They're like, oh, Conall has a girlfriend, and all the little cousins see her. And then they go to New Year's and all the old characters are there, even shitty Rachel and sweetish Karen, and they and it New Year's. They kiss, they kiss on the mouth. Conall kisses her and people are watching, which they should just do. It's

New Year's everyone kisses something at someone at midnight. And then he says I love you to her in public um, And that's the last you'll get of them being sweet to each other and being together. You're like, you're so close, you're so close, it's like they reached it and they don't them up. Yeah, and he says, I love you

like one other time. I'm when they're driving back from our protest, and it kind of cuts back and forth between those pieces, and then the final chapters are like they're kind of to get there in that kind of weird in between at the end of school and Connal gets into this m f A program in New York that he did not tell Marian about. Of course, God forbid to the most intimate relationship, but his whole thing is worried and he doesn't use them. It felt very

Jim and Pam to me, I don't like. It felt very like Jim get like secreative gestures of starting athletic marketing company. Yeah yeah. He bought a house without telling her he invested a company. Yeah yeah. And she was like, oh my god, this house. They love it. And I'm like, bitch his parents house also, which is a whole thing

that we need to pack. Yeah, Jim is a child, said And there's this girl, Sadie who's she's been Oh he's now the editor of the paper, and Sadie has a big crush on Connall and she doesn't he doesn't really like her in that way. Blah blah blah. But he did tell her that he was applying to this m f A program she convinced him to and then uh, Marianne decides to tell him to go to New York. And then he also doesn't offer to kill her brother. Um, the only I like, Oh god, I forgot about the

horrible sex and then the the abusive worst chap. I think I like block those two scenes had because they're so awful. Jen do it. So this is pretty bad guys. Um. So they're having sex and Marianne asked Connall to hit her and he says, no, that would be weird. Um because because it would be weird. Um. And mary Anne says, you think I'm weird and that was the way she was referred to in school. Like. She's back to being in her hometown again, um, surrounded maybe by people including Connall,

who thinks she's a weird girl. So she leaves. It's a bad situation. She goes home. Her brother doesn't want her associating with Connall because Connall is on antidepressant UM, which is I would not be able to associate with anybody in New York if that was a rule we were going by. Um. But um, yeah, they get into a fight. Um. Her brother keeps saying that he's not going to hit her, but he throws a beer bottle at her. She runs upstairs. In the process of this, Um,

she gets her nose broken. Um. I think it's because she's trying to close the door so he won't get into her room and she swams it in on her. Um. So her nose gets broken. So she calls Connal and she appollo gizes profusely and says, you know, it's just it's not really his fault, but my brother. My nose is broken. And Connal goes over to the house and tells her horrible abuse of brother, who is nothing if not consistently abusive, that if he does that to Marianne again,

he will kill him. And um, he does not punch him in the face, which made me sad because, um, because I would have liked that. So apparently I do not believe that violence is never the answer. I believe in this specific case it would have been cool. Sometimes bad people getting punched in the face is incredibly sad. Sometimes it's yeah, yeah, yeah, violence is never the answer. If you ignore all of human history, um, all start crying. Though Alan wept, he didn't even that was very sad.

I thought that the relationship, the power relationship between Alan and Connal was fascinating because early on, when she's having the secret relationship with con Alan sees Conna less so much cooler than her. He wants to suck up to that. Yeah, I mean I think Ellen represents everything the worst of everything in this book, which is like the status aware, uh, desperate, clawing, abusive, manipulated like he rubbed. He is the the black hole

of this book's worst themes. Yes, yeah, I think it's really interesting also in this time period that um, when Marianne goes home and stays with Connel for Christmas, they do run into her mother, and this is after the whole nosebreaking situation. And I will say in the show, I felt like her mother was less actively involved in the abuse and more of a passive just non participant and she didn't really do anything to it, which arguably

is its own form of abuse. But I think the a lot of the statements about like oh, if you can't handle it, then don't know what you're going to do. In the real world. We're in the book and not in the show, but they run into her mom and Marianne sort of first has the realization that maybe her mom is not a normal person and that maybe people don't see her mom in the same way that she does. And she asks and she's like, how do people in town see her? And Lorraine is like, I could say

she's a bit odd. And I think that's a real turning point for Marianne as well, because she has made these people her whole world and she just wants to fit in with them and not realizing that maybe they

don't fit in with other people. Do you think that's a moment too, where like because we learned that Marianne's father was abusive to Denise, that it's like a kind of a switch in Mary not meeting, not a switch, but like a moment where Marian's like, okay, like, although my mom has lent abuse to happen, like to from my brother's to me, like that she's seeing that her mother is maybe also like a damaged person that is experienced and seeing like her own trauma that she needs

to go see a therapist about as well. Yeah, I think that I will recommend therapy for almost every To me that scene, I think Niles, oh yeah, Nile, Joanna probably therapy, but not in this everyone therapy. Basically, some of these people need to be in weekly therapy. I think that scene of that realization with the mom reminded me of an echo of the scene at Deb's where Connor came to the realization like that if he had just been open about being with Marianne like things would

have been okay. It's this, um, this this scene where like the idea of normalcy and like checking in with society is a very grounding force in like, oh, the narratives that you make in isolation aren't necessarily true or valid, and that checking in with other people and and he is a helpful and important tools sometimes into feeling like a normal person yourself. Um. And I think that that was a lesson that both characters needed deeply. Well. You also have to check in with people who care about

your well being and who love you. Think marian consistently tries to check in with people who are not good friends to her or good romantic partners and to gain validation from them, and that is that that is done. Don't like check in with Twitter and be like, hey, Twitter point out my flaws. Yes, that's not going to be healthy for you. Yes, checking in with someone loving and yeah, someone loving who cares about you being happy and having a good life. How do we feel about

the ending of the book? Oh? I was very upset. It's super upset about well, like very ending. Like I finished the book and I was like, well, what the fuck? I think that one of the things. So she says that Connal should go to New York. But what we haven't talked about is the exact way she says it. She said, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna pull out my trusty book for this one because I want to want you all to hear it verbatim. Um. She says, you should go, I'll always be here, you know that.

Definitely going to marry a model in New York. Don't always be there. Oh, Marianne, did you learn nothing? I didn't like that the book sort of presented it. It was romantic, which I thought that, yeah, not a romance to to no no people, bad romance. Oh my god, I'm the stop demanding nothing out of this relationship, Maryanne.

It's not healthy, it's not helpful. I could have found a million other men who would beat up your abusive brother just really just like a million on any other given day, and it's the only great thing he does for To me, what the ending imply I was that this dynamic will continue for ages two to ten years, like that they will be the one they returned to in between relationships, and they're going to continue to suffer

through this, particularly marry. I really feel like Marianne is going to get the short end off they stick here, that one day Colin will come home and he will just be married and mary Anne still will have been waiting and demanding the end when yeah, oh, we'll still on his work with Mary Anne, Yes you are the One day Mary that Conna will be dating, slash engaged to slash marry someone else in New York and still writing emotional intimate emails to Mary Anne, and she will

be fundamentally unhappy waiting for him to love her in a version of events that will never happen. She will waste her entire life on this man who is at least emotionally unavailable to her, if not emotionally unavailable to everyone. Should we we be friends with Marianne? I feel like we've fallen at the five talk to her. I think she just needs to listen to Joanna more like she doesn't even Nina. She has Joanna and it's just like

get it together. Um, heartbreaking. But look, I think we also know women like that in real life, at least I do, who have like been carrying a torch for a man for like a decade and he'll always show up just enough to give them just enough hope to hang in there and think that maybe like when he gets when he finally breaks up with his girlfriend, it's not a good time right now, but like when that happens, then we'll probably be together and we'll be happy and

it'll be like oh, white pick fence kind of fantasy and it will be great. No, if people want to be with you, they'll be with you. It's like it's like in Crazy Extra Friend. It's like the Love Colonels. Yes, I thought that earlier when you were talking about storing away love and child and like squirreling it away for the winter. Yeah. No, definitely Love Colonel's for sure. So does the Here's my question though, does the book realize

that it's a tragic ending? No? Yes, I think a lot of people read it and don't realize it's a tragic ending, and that in itself it's very upsetting to me. And I want to send out a million tweets saying, you realize that this is not a romance. This is a tragedy, right. I think a lot of people read it as a as a as a hopeful ending in a way that makes or like a bitter sweet ending, which I don't think it is at all. It's no,

I don't think it's bitter sweet. I think it's it is tragic and it feels like, you know, that was the choice she made, and there I wanted a Catharsis, Like I wanted Marianne to say something like you'll never really love me, will you? And he says no, and then she says goodbye and that's the end, just for them to like say to each other the things that the true is behind the reason why it doesn't work. But I know that's not what the book wasn't intending to do, but that's what I wanted in my head.

I'm gonna pretend that happened, Melissa. You just wrote my my, my head, Cannon, and I know in my heart of hearts. I was like, I really I want her to. I know it's not the intention of the book, but I want Marianne to find self worth and that is enough for her, and that it doesn't need to come from Connal who is just dangling it in front of her and taking it away and putting it back whenever he wants to. And here's the thing about Conna is I

don't think he's doing it selfishly or maliciously. I think he's doing it obliviously, which which it doesn't matter. It's a thing like the end results for mary and is going to be the same. The happy ending would have been mary Anne going to me, yes, Marianne applying to an m f A program and getting in and not telling Conall and her and being like goodbye. That would

have been happy ending. That would have been nice. I feel so complicated about the the obliviousness of it, though, because I feel like that is such an excuse that we give men. But I think we get it's not an excuse, Like we get his perspective, you know, we get his his side of the book. I think in Conal's mind, he is a he knows he's doing something a little off, but he's not doing it on purposed hurt Marianne. I think he's just weak and like he

has failings, which sucks. And then Marianne also has failings, which sucks, and I think, whether it's malicious or oblivious, it's not healthy for her and she needs to get out. I think, okay, but they've also I okay, I have had relationships that I did not think of as being terribly serious, where like suddenly, out of the blue, I got like a three page email from a man being like, you are not emotionally risk apt of why are you so closed off? Why won't you hang out with me

when we're out with your friends? And um the the honest answers like, I don't know. We went out for like two months. I wasn't paying that much attention. I guess I wasn't that into you. I'm sorry, um but um well, those are short relationships. This relationship has been going on for five years. At some point, you can't just be oblivious. Yeah he's not. He's not treating her with respect. Yes, fair, I feel like and none of you are going to believe that this just occurred to me.

You're all gonna think I've been planning this since the beginning. But I feel like the relationship to me is a lot like Logan and Veronica relationship Veronica Mars, where it's tumultuous in ways that it doesn't need to be. And I think that just based on who they are fundamentally as people, it's never not going to be that way unless they start to really examine who they are as people and how that affects their relationships. And I think that at his core, Conal does want to love Marianne.

But I think that you're right, Like I think it was Melissa who said like, I'm never gonna love you and walk away like he's never going to be able to fully love her. Yeah, no, never, And I think that is true to a lot of these kinds of relationships that either I've experienced or witnessed my friends being is that like a dynamic is set up in the beginning and it just continues to repeat itself. And I think that's true of most relationships I've ever been in.

And if you set up a relationship like they did at the beginning of the book, it just keeps. It felt felt like it was in chapters, but the emotional arc of it was on a loop, um because it's so hard to break that and the truth is, it just doesn't get like I've never heard a story where this Connell Maryan dynamic. They get married, you know, yeah, or stay married more importantly, or stayed I'm that incredibly

depressing note. Thank you so much to Jenner for right karamadon Quatian Tran and Melissa Hunter Um, and thank you for for listening. If you've joined us on this book club, we'll be back with another book. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish

Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Karama down qua Is at Karama Drama, Melissa hunter Is at Melissa f t W and Tian Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hassiotis, and we're produced and edited by Mike Jones. Special thanks to David Wasserman and to Sally Rooney for

these beautiful people and all of their problems. Speaking of problems, next week we dive into I Know This Much as True by Wally Lamb, now in HBO series starring Mark Ruffalo and also Mark Ruffalo as a pair of identical twins, the Ruffali. Before we go into the rest of the book, can we just I'll say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo of preference is from Eternal Sunshine of the Spot the Glasses. Yes, yeah, it's a solid Ruffalo. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio.