I Know This Much Is True (Part 5)

Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danish Schwartz and as always I'm joined by Croma Aqa, Jennifer Right, Tan Tran, and Melissa Hunter and today we are wrapping up The Birds e Saga with I Know This Much is True the final chapters Colin the final chapters, Oh God, is there a word for saga that's more saga than saga? Because this feels like that are I will just say our group chat this morning was was popping off. It feels appropriate to say with all of our thoughts that we couldn't

wait to share second and I had fifty messages. The thing that I kept like thinking about as I read this was how smart it was that we divided this up into sceptions, because how would anyone talk about this book entirely? Like there's too much in fifteen chapters? I don't know if we can successfully. There's way too much going on. I will say, I'm so glad we're done

with this book. Um, I do feel like so much of the conclusion was set up really perfectly as evidence by the fact that we were able to make predictions

it turned out to be true. Like Karama pointed out that maybe he was going to turn out to be related to Ralph and they had the same father, And I was wrong about the same father part, but I was correct about them being related, and the birds twins secretly being mixed and their mother being ashamed of that, and and Jennifer, you predicted ending up with death, which I was, well, it would not happen. I really didn't think it was going to go there. I was so mad. Look,

I was less mad than I expected to be. I think one of the things that I did like about this book was I think it really grappled with toxic masculinity before that was a thing a lot of people were talking about. And I'm sure we all have very flowed men in our lives. And my my hope isn't that I'll write them off entirely. My hope is that they'll get therapy and they'll learn to talk about their

feelings and they'll evolve and become better people. And it seems like, you know, Dominant really tried to do that, and he sort of saw through his grandfather and through Ray what happens if you live a life dedicated to being a tough guy, um and what happens is you end up alone and maybe lose a limb in the process. So, you know what, those those are great lessons for him to learn. Like, I'm glad he went to you could Tell and really worked on himself, and maybe he'll be

able to have better relationships now that that's hopeful. Yeah, I will say I did like that. I felt that Dominic's growth was real. Like a lot of books, I feel like at the end, it's just like and I changed, I'm better now. But I like that it actually showed him like doing the actual work of going to therapy and like revisiting really hard moments from his past and uncovering trauma and you know, revisiting his grandfather's story and

getting the right messages out of it. So I was like, Okay, I like that our character through all of this is growing and learning and changing. But what I didn't love is that the way the ending was structured, it felt like you went to therapy. Here's your reward, woman, a million dollars. Like I also say, they were like, and you're done with therapy, Like that's never therapy is scared

ongoing process. And the end of it that he like he's absolved of all of his racism and all of his like white passing privilege and caplicity and sexism and sexism like that bothered me. That I love that it tackled toxic masculinity, but that like neat little bow tie at the end of it that also like kind of wipes away any of his other transgressions. Was like, Wally, this is too easy. Yeah, I can all collectively agree

that Dominic did not deserve a million dollars. No, I think we're trying on the group chat that it would have been something if he had just given it back to the tribe or given it to Ralph like and just maintained his because he didn't. He didn't deserve that money.

I think he deserved to find out who his father was, but he didn't deserve to all of a sudden benefit from the one privilege this tribe will ever get after living a life of prejudice and like it feels crazy and it's importantly I deserved to know who his father was.

And I will say that is the one thing I love a bow with the narrative, but the money is not for the person who not only benefited from his white passing privilege and you know the systems of white supremacy, but like actively wielded them as weapons specifically again yes twice what is a child and then as an adult specifically against the drink waters and didn't really do much

to be like anti racist about it at all. Like his progress was him finding out that his father was a drink water and then he was like, Okay, things are good. I can't be ad like you have a you have a black friend, but you have a black dad. I do want to say we are starting at the very end that happened in those seventeen chapters. I think that's a good point. Can I just say one thing, Karama, was it Did you look at the end and say that you saw that The last sentence was I know

this much is true. For some reason, so much time has passed that I thought you were joking. So then when I saw it, when I saw it, in real time. I was like, this should be illegal, that you should you should not be allowed to end a book with the title of I just just like I can't believe,

you know. I also say it twice in the books in Prospering Story and then at the very end, and the first time I was like okay, But then I remembered that I had already seen it, and I was like, wait, what you know that while he really thought he was doing something with that, he was like, yeah, I did

like a little typing face. I did like my impression of Wally smugly finishing this book and apt for the listeners, it is so interesting how the whole big secret of Thomas and his mom like playing dress up and how and he was dressing like a woman and like and that it was that was the worst of raise abuse,

was seeing Thomas literally dressed as a woman. And I think it's Thomas and Dominic at least throughout the book do feel like the feminine and the masculine, and then Dominic sort of absorbs or like releases some of that toxic masculine typical masculine energy, and it absorbs some of Thomas's sweet sweetness as they always say, at the sweetness, that's such an important observation that that is the main secret that that Dominic has been holding onto all this time,

that he he has to build up to even be able to acknowledge to himself, which to me, like reading the book, like so much awful stuff happened with abuse, it was almost like, wait, this was the worst thing that happened, like a little boy and his mom playing

dress up. But that's it. It embodied everything so awful and shameful to to Dominic one the idea that he was like excluded that they were doing this thing and he didn't want to do it, but also was excluded that he was the guard dog that you know, he was supposed to protect Thomas and and his mother from ray. That he failed at that, that he was unable to

protect them. Also trashed the house the house, But it was just a little boy, I mean he yeah, he should never shon where he had to protect them, No, I I know, absolutely, But I think like he he absorbs that failure as a failure on his part and the shame of it, and then also then of course raised horrific violence against his mother and Thomas. I'd like, there's so much like internalized shame and anger towards Ray, but also anger and shame towards Thomas for doing that

in the first place. I mean, I think, um, one part that really struck me was that Ray talks later about how he thought he was doing something good, that you know, he'd been in two wars. All he had seen is that the world is a really tough place. And um, all I can do for these two young boys is toughen them up as much as possible. And you know, I still think that as a society we take away little boy's sweetness really really quickly, that we try to make them be big and tough and big

strong men. Um, like really from the time they're five or six years old, and um, and that makes me really really sad, I think. And also like it's it is said that like we we take a lot of boy sweetness away and then you know, and not in but like encourage when that toxic masculinity is in play with like boys will be boys and like that sort of language that also doesn't allow for sweetness or softness

or tenderness. Well, and it also I mean, I know we're skipping ahead to this scene, but like when dominic trashes the kitchen like destroys it, and Ray doesn't flinch at that. He's not upset about that at all, because it is a sort of like boys will be masculin a masculine way of acting out and was so fixated on what was happening upstairs, um like a sweet tea. Part. I think that I've found very compelling is having a villain that is multifaceted in the sense that he seems

like a person that could it. Because when you're reading a book, it's very easy. No one reads Harry Potter and it's like, oh, I see myself in Baltimore. I'm you know what I mean, Like like no one went like no one is you know, speak for yourself, Dana, but you know what I mean, Like no one reads like books like that, where it's like it's very easy to dismiss a villain as all bad and then you just don't have to reckon with it at all. You can just lift your hands and be like, well, I'm

not that. But a character like Ray who is abusive but in a way that the system encourages, Like I hope that maybe men who read this are forced to like reckon with some of the things they've done wrong, because it's like, you can't dismiss Ray as just a one dimensional villain, Like, yeah, he's also a man who you know, plants flowers on a grave and like tries to and tried to tried to be a good father

to these boys but failed in horrific ways. So like, I like a villain that you can't just dismiss out of hand. And he's like, well, I'm not like that, so I don't need to absorb these messages or this lection. Like I think that's so much more effective to me, Like his gray areas make make it easier to to reckon with his his message areas. I think that it's interesting that Ray is very gray even before we find out his like sort of tragic backstory. And it's not

like you use that to make him suddenly okay. It's that he when he opens up, you find this out about him, But prior to that, he had already sort of started to reckon with the fact that maybe some of the things that he thought were black and white were much more gray. And the fact of the matter is, like he is Dominic's father, and by the end of

the book, he's not correcting people. It's like, yeah, he sucked, and some fathers are abusive and some fathers are awful, but like, yeah, the man who is your father from the time you are an infant child or like two years old to your entire life, Like, sorry, that's your dad. Yeah, well it is so I mean again, I know we're jumping all over the place, but the shave, the intimacy of the shaving. What happened to Ray? Okay, yeah, that's good. Yeah, Jenny, Jennifer,

give us a little give us a little Ray background. Okay. So um at Thomas's funeral? Um, oh Thomas. Yeah, we kind of talk. Okay, really think we've mentioned Thomas dying earlier, as we also skipped over the ray. Also, Thomas was being raped in jail. Yeah, j the mental institution, and it was it was it was Ralph who, Ralph who, in spite of everything that Dominic did to him, Ralph makes the call and says, get your brother tested for HIV.

We find out that there's an HIV epidemic at this hospital because the mean guard who wasn't lighting Thomas's cigarette because he has a awful power trip, was sexually abusing the inmates. Uh Thomas uh get uses that and uses the bruises that he had had the night that that he dropped Uh Thomas off. Sorry, Dominic used that. Uh. He gets Dominic out even though Thomas out sorry, even though I'm fortunately Thomas is HIV negative. But the very night that he gets him out, he puts him in

a halfway home. The halfway home loses him at two in the morning, and uh Thomas went to the falls and committed what looks like suicide. Yeah. I will say that when Ralph is like, hey, you need to get your brother tested for HIV, I was like, jo, Bingo, here we go. That's what I was waiting for. And I think it's really important to know that even though at this point Dominic isn't therapy, he's starting to learn how to grapple with his immense anger and hatred and

sort of talks this. Uh he gets this memo from Ralph, drinkwater in his car like in a very secret agent way, and then decides the best course of action with this memo that proves that there is an epidemic of HIV A disease. At this point, it's nineteen nine or one, where they have very little understanding it is basically a death sentence in a way that it's not in the same way. Now he decides, oh, I'm going to use this to get to my brother out, not to expose

the facility for the terrors that are happening there. Like if the if Dwayne Taylor, who's the cowboy who wouldn't like the cigarette and is raping the inmates, Uh, if he had not been gorn in in a bathroom, then they probably wouldn't have stopped him. Kind of just would have been Thomas gets out and it gets swept under the rug. It kind of felt similar to the way that they catch the child pornography of Ralph, where it's like, yeah, you didn't do that. That was you didn't all of anything.

You weren't like, Hey, it's kind of weird that this orphan child is living with this creepy adult. I'm gonna call someone. It just sort of like, Oh, that's really lucky that someone else caught this. Um. Yeah, I'd like

to think that Ralph killed that guard. Yeah, yeah, I mean that seems to indicate that, but I actually Ralph does work nights, which we know from the fact that when Dominic brought Thomas in there and he mopped up the urine and Dwayne the cowboy is not supposed to be there at night, so I feel like there is

some evidence. Yeah. Um, I think Ralph, as a survivor of abuse maybe really did not like see it seeing it happen to anybody else and just took that problem into his own hands and to his own cousin who he knew was his cousin. And also he and Thomas had a sweet relationship. I don't think, uh, it wasn't about Dominic ever, like I think in spite of Dominic,

he was just he was just protecting Thomas. UM. But yeah, and then Lisa Shaeffer, I think it's important to note that she was like, you're arrogant, Dominic, be careful like this is and he's like, what do you mean, I'm arrogant, So he's still like and then he slightly his arrogance

of like that Thomas will be fine. They have that weird experience at McDonald's, and you know, with Leo and Thomas, it's kind of their last day together, UM, and it is something that is really tragic that um Dominic sort of overestimated his ability to UM help his brother or control his brother. But but I do think sort of the one gift that Wally and Near in writing the story gives to Dominic is that he did put him

in the halfway home. So like the responsibility isn't entirely Thomas doesn't have to feel like it fault that way, like he did make that We're like, yeah, you they they would have they should have been more capable, and it wasn't like Dominic was directly responsible in that way, which I do feel like, I think it's I think it's more that it Dominic is still on his journey and he doesn't kind of see that he is emotionally. I don't think anyone would fault Dominic for what happened

to Thomas. But it is just a part, a part of the soup of it all the tragedy. The real culprit is budget cuts. Yeah, yes, yeah, I just was gonna bring up, like what Melissa was saying about um

chefferd mentioning his arrogance. It's like something that is like a running thread throughout this book is that like even Dominico has these delusions of grandeur, and Dr Patel makes a dominant reckon with that too, and it's like tied to the fact that both Dominic and Dominico feel like victims of their Sir Him stance and that everyone is against them and that they need to be owed these apologies and that they have been that they were born these men that should have been entitled to more and

didn't get that, and so these delusions of grandeur are like he's finally Dominic is finally starting to chip away at the fact that like he can't solve everything and not everything not everyone is out to put him in a place where he has to solve everything, and it's it's an interesting contrast to like Thomas, who is obviously schizophrenic.

His delusions of grandeur are the ones that I think people would recognize as delusions of grandeur, which is like the CIA is hunting me or whatever his delusions were, where Dominic's is more narcissistic in the sense of like I failed here and I'm controlling it, like or even where it looks self effacing, it's like, no, you don't have There's so much, so many references to martyrs in

the book. I mean, you know, one that released it out to me was in Prospering story Violetta, who she she was modeling this biblical martyr Um who went blind. I believe, and I think, you know, it is really interesting that like there are these sort of martyr complexes that people have, like their actual martyrs, and like Thomas did a like really intense murder thing of cutting off

his hand. But I feel like Dominic and Dominico both have these martyr complexes, which is very different because it's not actual, you know, it's it's really reckoning with that and releasing that. You're listening to Popcorn book Club from my Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn book Club. So I feel like with that not fully covered, but as much as you can in this limited time, Jennifer, will you go back

to raise story so more thing about Thomas? Yes, sorry, I just found it really tragic that Thomas's last meal on earth was a happy meal, and like he was insistent that he get a happy meal. And it reminded me of when he had asked for the water from the river so that he could cleanse his brain because he said that he was unclean and that he thought that using the water from the river is like a holy water would be able to cleanse his brain. And it felt like the happy meal was his last sort

of ditch effort to try and be happy. And I cried like a little bit. Okay, one more tiny thing about Thomas. I'm so sorry um the fact that um at the beginning of the book, when he when Dominic was like, don't reattach the hand because Thomas doesn't want that. He wants that autonomy and authority. I like, I don't like it, but it's a I guess, a slight positive. There's no way to phrase this. A thing to notice about the journey is the way he goes out is

at least on his terms. It's not a disease that someone abused him and gave him. He has been suffering and and does this traumatic thing to himself and hurts him. But like as Dominic commented with the hand, like that was at least he had so many choices taken away from him. At least he had like a tiny bit

of agency in that. So even you know, I in the choice right, like in a novel that the author gets to choose how a character anything that happens to them, and it's like, yeah, if he wants Thomas to die, he could have had him die of aids and that whatever. But I I like that it mirrors that sense of tragedy, but but giving him a sense of autonomy at the end.

And I think autonomy is something that the book's been dealing with since the very first page that this begins with the librarian from the library for Thomas cut off his hand, coming to Dominic and saying, hey, was this my fault? I just need to know that this wasn't mindful and um, obviously that that seems crazy. No, the

librarian was just doing her job. It had grander exactly, Yes, But everybody seems to feel that way throughout the book, that they are responsible for things that they may or may not have been responsible for, and Dominic certainly feels that way with regard to Thomas. And I think that seguents nicely into what happens at Thomas's funeral. Um. So Thomas has um a funeral that a lot of people show up for, which is really nice that um that dess his family shows up for it as well. Um,

it's a well attended funeral. And Ralph Ralph stayed in his car, but he was Ralph stayed, but Ralph was

there yep. And then afterwards at the memorial at their house, um Dominic gets very very angry at Ray and talks about how they bullied Thomas into this, that they were both responsible, that that this is a victory day for them because they get to be big, tough guys and they were bullying Thomas every chance they could and Ray, Um, Ray has this moment where he becomes very defensive and he says that the day that he adopted them, the

judge said that he was a good man. That like that he was taking on two little boys and that made him a good man, and it seems like Ray

had really clung to that. But um, but yeah, so um Dominic goes into a little bit of a depressive spell afterwards, and Dr Patel does a little bit of tough love and says that she's not going to meet with him until he does some of the things on his list, which include like thanking people for coming to the funeral and writing thank you know, and reapplying for his teacher's license and going back to doing that, and perhaps um most difficult, trying to extend some forgiveness to

Ray and trying to make amends there and through or at least just like re established, it's re established a contact here. And throughout that he's been getting a lot of phone calls from Ray, and he finally gets this call from Raised doctor saying, Hey, the surgery went well. We had to like amputate right below the knee. But he's recovering and Dominic had no idea of what was happening. It turns out the raise diabetes um has caused him

has custed one of his limbs to turn gangrenus. And I don't even think did Dominic sorry interrupted Dominic even know that Ray was Diabeticum, He didn't know that he was diabetic. Yeah, And he also knew that Ray had like off handedly said he had like giving me some trouble. Yeah, he had said the numbers, Yeah, he talked about how yeah. Yeah. But it turned out that Ray ignored that for far too long wanted to be a tough guy. That's what the doctor said, and as a result, that limb got

starved and they had to amputate. So he goes and sees Ray at the hospital. Quick toxic masculinity. Literally you literally lose limbs. It literally toxic to your limbs anyway. Yes, yes, um, yes, if you starve nothing long enough, it dies. Ray kept

starving his limb, it died. Now, just like Thomas, he has lost a limb, and for the first time, he's in this really, really vulnerable state where he has to rely on other people and um, he can't kind of bluster and tough guy his way out of this situation. And it's the first time that he really starts talking to Dominic and talking about how he had a really sad childhood as well. They his parents died, Um, that the person that he thought was his sister was actually

his mother. Um, he was left only with his alcoholic sister for a long time, and he got out of there and joined the navy, and that was his way out, and he just he had a very unhappy life. And I thought it was really sweet that, Um, they start having little outings together, like they go out and they get burgers and for their third outing races, he wants to go to a movie, which Dominic things is weird because he thought movies were a huge voice of money

and he didn't like them when they were little. But he wants to go to a movie, and Dominic assumes that I'm going to have to sit through Dances with Wolves again or like Donard Steady. And Ray says, I want to go see The Little Mord and Dominic says, that's that's a movie for babies. He said, don't you think I know what that is? Don't think I'm curious? Why do you ask me what do you want to see? If you don't want to go see a Little Mermaid, then we'll see whatever you want to see. But you

asked me. Yeah. So they go and they see The Little Mermaid, and Dominic understands that it's also about this

person who doesn't have legs. That's why Ray wanted to see it, and it's really sweet and I think, UM, for the first time, he kind of understands that there are layers to Ray that you know, Ray had his own terrible baggage or you know, that doesn't make up for what was done to them as children, but it sort of means that he can see this person as a man who failed, UM, but failed for reasons that

maybe a lot of men have experienced. And then Ray goes to my nursing home and he makes three friends and Um and they like make sexist jumps together and talk about the war, and um, they're old man and wheelchairs and it seems like he's doing pretty well. There. There's also another lady at the at there's an interesting lady at the hall of the nursing home, which maybe you would like to talk. Yes, there's a woman in the nursing home hall who always gives him an evil eye.

And he's like, why is this woman always looking at me like she knows me? This woman doesn't know me. And then one day she shows up and that old woman is gone and they're like that old woman you mean prospertine And he's like, what I just read that story? Could she be? What could it be? And he runs to the hospital and he takes two rabbits that are in the children's doing for the visiting, and he's like, oh my god, this woman has been in Settled. She's

over a hundred years old. Like there's a bit of mystery because her last name is different, but of course, like that could be anything, and so you believe what you want to believe, and personally I do want to believe. I think it makes perfect sense that this woman has been in settle for a hundred years or whatever and then was moved to a nursing home. Uh, and he's like, oh my god, it's the same woman. It's it's Prospertine.

It's the monkey from the story. He grabs the rabbits because he's like, I have an idea that I'll reenax the miracle from her childhood. You a reason that doesn't make sense to me. And he runs up to her room and he's like, one rabbit and rabbits, forgive me. I really when the heaven I was like, leave this poor woman on her loan. She has has pneumonia, she's over a hundred years old, she's about to die. She

has nobody showing up for her. And this person who looks like Dominico is like pulling rabbits out of his ass in front of her. Any level, this lady wanted to see mabe rebutu to this that should not be the last face that is poor old he's on earth. It's like to me, dominic is still so fucking selfish, like going up to this woman and man, why is

no one stopping? Oh, it is important to notice that Hurricane Bob, Bob Bob, Hurricane Bob is happening, which is like maybe the only cover that allows Dominic to children's way and the old rabbits that the dying children have

for company. He's like I need. If Dominic had grown a little bit more, what he would have done is run up there and like punched himself in the face or something like just made it me like I am I am a bad person, or let prospering like burn burn Dominic with a with the ash from his pipe, her pipe or something. He could have just said, I'm so sorry, give me. Was It's like it's just say I'm sorry. Yeah, it puts the onus on process. Also, I will say that he didn't bring one rabbit up

and then two rabbits. He brought two rabbits up and then one rabbit and a reversal of what happened. And I was like, what is this supposed to do? It? Like true deep and I just don't get it. Oh, I'm so glad nobody else got it. No, I didn't get it. If Wally Lamb was truly sick, he'd be like Dominic was like two rabbits one flat line and

like that was truly her last image. But I do think going back to like forgive me is so much more selfish than I'm sorry because if if you're going to bother this old woman as she's dying of pneumonia, A lot of times needing um forgiveness from people is very selfish because you want to be absolved of your own guilt, and it's not necessarily the right thing to do for that person. And like that forgiving someone is a very nice thing that you do were them. It's

a gift. And so like just demanding this thing from this woman who's been tortured her entire life, wrongfully imprisoned, Yeah, but he's rewarded for it because it breaks the curse. And then I think it's really quick. But the prospering cameo. It did make me so happy that she outlived dominico Um, and I feel like in some way she must have known that. But it also makes me think because because it was that was in the twenties, is the nineties,

so she's probably like a hundred. I feel like if she hadn't been in settle her whole life, she would have lived to like a hundred and forty. Like she she was just like the toughest person in the world.

She was a tough pipe smoking broad. Back to Ray, I think the important thing for Ray is that when when Dominic is able to maybe not forgive him, but at least accept him as his father and accepts all of his flaws and vulnerabilities and be like, look like, I don't just can't necessarily forgive you for the things

you did, but like I still see you. Um, that's when he gets the gift that he's wanted his entire life, which is the identity of his quote unquote real father, biological father, which that he finds out is a man named Henry Drinkwater who is the brother of Ralph Drinkwater's father, the son of a Drinkwater that worked at the factory. And we find out that he was mixed. He was

part black and part Native American. And that's a why that uh, Connie couldn't tell anyone because that would have caused her father probably to kick her out of the house and disown her because he was a racist and

he's a racist. But also when he is talking, he finds out by going to Ralph, and Ralph tells him that Thomas knew that she had told Thomas, and then um, dr Ptel helps him see that maybe the mother had had protected him because like, yeah, as we know from everything, like Dominic one has massive anger issues but also was pretty racist a lot, and like she was maybe protecting him from like how he would react, and she wasn't sure how he would react because he he looks a

lot like their grandfather and her grandfather was mad and racist. There is this now that we're talking about it too.

It is something that Ray also seemingly does to protect him because in that huge fight that happens after the funeral, when he when Ray is saying that he's a good man, he's a good man, someone with less control could have popped off and Ray could have been like, you know who your real father is, That's why I'm a good man, and like this is why, like you shouldn't be yelling at me, Like he chose not to tell Dominic until Dominic was at a place where that till Dominic was

also at a place where he could also found it interesting that scene because at first, the first time Dominic asked, Ray says he doesn't know, and then he comes back after sharing his story it's to me. There was something sweet about it, being a truly empathetic moment that Ray had of like this happened to me. I didn't know who my parents were. It's not absolving him of anything, but I did think there was something a growth there that Karama does not agree. I think he also said

that it's different now, there's right. I forgot about that and they were about to open that. I think my head because I wanted it to be it's sweet. It's sweeter for him to be nice. Although I will say it's as as far as Ray goes, We'll say it's a good gesture on raise, but Ray is limited. Ray

is indeed limited. I think that with the money on the line, he was like, I want to, since you're my kid, make sure that you're taking care of especially because we've had all this trauma recently and you're sort of between the gigs, and I want to make sure that you're okay. And I have this information that I've been holding onto because I loved your mother so much and she asked me not to tell anyone, but I love you and I think it's important for you to

know so that you can be okay. Yeah, what kids to be financially security. It's a very paternal emotion, like it's it's the level of like you gotta get your car tires because otherwise it's going to be a problem. Yeah, and we're just like spilling family secrets right now. I just wanted to make sure everybody remember that he was like take the money from the Native Americans. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to go on the record and say so.

When Dominick he runs, he talks to Ralph and he sees that Ralph now has this a major role in the connect nation and and it has a position of power and has a really nice office and a new building. And he's like, wow, you know, Ralph really made it. I'm like, however, nice Ralph's office is now he deserves and office three times is nice for everything he put up with and the fact that as a member of UH the aquatic tribe, now dominic is entitled to like

an equal share of the money. I'm like, I think, as we were talking about before, he does not deserve that. He doesn't. I don't think the story needs it for closure or for him to be rewarded in anyway. Like his reward could just be like he could he gets this emotional closure and then and he works as a as a as a middle as a teacher, teaching history better than the history that he had been taught, which

I like. I like that parallel, and he gets back together with yeah, that could maybe if if you need that. When I found out that when we all find find out that he is drink a drink water, but he had been his entire life raised to believe that he is fully a white man, and like is white passing

and has all this white privilege. At that point, I was like, waly Man, this feels like some settler colonial fan fiction where someone yes, gets to find out that they like because everyone there are so many there, you know that that trope a stereotype of white folks being like, but I'm part Native American, yes, part indigenous, And for this to actually work out in his favor in such a way where he gets to be like, I'm part Native American and I get to be wealthy, it felt

so it was not it was satisfying. It felt so cheap. Yes, it did. I do want to talk about blood quantum and uh and Native American like nations. Blood quantum. I love that it's something. It's also the title of a movie, but that's not what I mean. So blood quantum is the way that many Indian nations, and that is one of the terms that that people use for it. So I'm not I think that's the right term, and please

forgive me if it's not. But it's one of the ways that many Indian nations determine who gets to be a citizen because they are their own sovereign nations. So like for the Navajo Nation, if you have twenty five percent Navajo blood, then at least then you can be a member of the Navajo Nation. But it does bring

up issues of like how do you measure that? And for some people they are mixed with very different tribes, but then they can't belong to any one tribe because they don't have enough of a high percentage of blood of anyone tribe to become a citizen. And each tribe gets to decide on their own how they do that. And I think that I was reading something about blood quantum because it's something that I had been thinking about before,

like it's something I've been thinking about for years. The first time I learned about it, I was like, wait,

what this feels messy and bad and wrong? And um they somebody called it a colonial catch twenty two because the thing is It's like what Tienne just said, there are all these white people like uh, some who have run for president who say I'm part Native American, and then they try and claim that and to have somebody come in a situation like this in the book and try and claim that you have to have some sort of barrier to say no, you don't get to just say you had a story and that story entitles you

to the rights that we have fought really hard for in courts of law and lost people for. So I think that that's important. But at the same time, like how do you keep You don't want to say you only have to breed with us so that you can stay a member of this community. But at a certain point, because of blood quantum, if you if you have a child with anybody outside of your community, then you end

up losing this connection to the community. And I think that it sets up this really interesting thing that they never talk about what the blood quantum for the Quantics is. And there I believe I made up tribe in this book. I looked up I looked them up and only could find things about I know this much as true, and I think that they're supposed to be sort of a stand in for the Mohegan Nation, which does have a

huge casino in Connecticut. Um and I couldn't find anything on their website about what the blood quantum requirements were for them. You had to like write into them with a letter in the US Postal Service to get more

information about joining. We can assume that that dominic I mean, but like you said, like blood quantum is such a messy, nobulous like colonialists catchwain to where that had no impact on his life, on his culture, on the way he was raised, on the way he was treated by others perceived. So he could have been fifty percent. It doesn't matter whatever percentage does it, It doesn't matter because it didn't

inform his life. Like I said at the beginning, like he not only like weaponized his white male privileged with like law enforcement and the police a lot and a position of authority. He specifically weaponized it against the Drinkwaters. What really bummed me out was I had like a glimmer of hope when he was in that scene with Ralph and says like I'm a drinkwater, We're cousins. The

whole thing. He was like, when you know, there are a lot of people now that there's money, saying that they're you know, of this tribe, and he's like, I don't care about the money. I just care about where I came from. Like, oh good, oh good. He's not going to take laim, I will say, I like, I want to say, in fairness. I like that he doesn't just take the money. In peace, he tries to become an active and in both mentors community. He teaches at the Quantic School here doing back up real quick and

just say I'm so glad. The one thing about this storyline is that Constantina was not raped by her father, And I think there's something I found really When Dominic is reading the story and his questioning about his parentage, it's always like either she was raped or it was a mercy mercy fuck, like those are the only two options for his hair lipped mother. He really thought, but it sounds like she had love in that, like that that those children were born out of love and the

father died tragically in the war. But I thought that was like really nice that she had that, that those babies were born out of love. Yeah, When his aunt was like, yeah, she met him at the shop and she saw him and they loved each other like that. They were friends for years. Yeah. I mean, I think also one of the reasons he ends up for giving Ray is because Ray talks about meeting his mother and his mother was saying, oh my lips so ugly and

probably the mosteeming that's the most redeeming Ray moment. The Little Mermaid probably, yeah, and a redeemable Domenico moment. There are few, but this is one of them. Uh. You find out when you find out that um, that Henry Drinkwater is Dominic's dad, that that Domenico had given money to the drink Waters after Nappy Drinkwater died under his employ And he didn't do it like he wasn't required to or anything. He just did it because they still had young kids. And he was like, He's like, oh,

that's stupid business didn't care for them. Yeah, but businesses feel like, I'm just going to send them a little bit of money because that's the right thing to do. And that was the one redeeming thing I know. And he's also a man who was so proud of not giving money at any point that for him that must

have been a big deal. But like I I said earlier, I think that when bad character or flawed characters do have redeeming moments, it then makes it more powerful book because then it forces you to really reckon with and accept who they their flaw they're complicated. And I think it's also a really interesting book to be reading right at this moment in history, because I think there are um a lot of articles that exist, um some of which I have probably written, that are like, well, if

you have a bad family member, cut them off. You're an orphan. Now they voted for Trump. Never taught to them again. There you go, that's your solution. And this was a book that was really about like the beauty of forgiveness in trying to find these small redeeming moments in people and not to forgiven except that they're bad people who vote for Trump, but to kelp them grow, to help them grow. The people are capable of growth and capable of becoming better. And that's something I really

want to believe. You're listening to Popcorn Book Cliff from my Heart Radio. We'll be right back after this quick break, all right, so let's get back into it. We got I feel like two more big stories, Joy and Death. Right. I was just gonna say the two main things, and now the wrap up of the women in Dominic's life.

I would say for all the nuanced women that we saw in the story about Violetta and Prospertine, like these now are women who I kind of thought happened there there there endings wrapped up very quickly and very much deserved dominant and and uh, well it was like how I met your mother, where it's like this is this woman exists for this purpose. This woman exists for this purpose, and now we will make sure you get all the happy that you wanted through these two women. Melissa, you

want to take take whatepen boy if you wouldn't for Joy. Um. Yes. So Joy gets in touch with Dominic, like wants to see him. She says she's in town. She sends a picture of the baby, and it's like, I really like if you like to visit the baby sometimes I really like that things didn't turn out so great. I would love to see you. Hint hint um. He avoids it at first, and then he finally agrees to see Joy.

And Joy comes over and she has the baby and she's like lugging the baby out and she and she's wearing a lot of makeup, and Dominic thinks she looks pretty pretty bad, like there's something going on. She looks tired, like you know, she's hiding something, and she they make sandwiches, and she keeps saying, you want to hold the baby, you want to hold the baby, and he's like, no, obviously there's some trauma related to Dominic, uh, in relation to babies. Um. But she keeps on, she's acting a

little um. She doesn't need her sandwich. He keeps on wanting her to leave, and she's like, please look at this beautiful baby. And then finally she's like hold the baby and like and then she leaves and he's like, oh, she forgot her binky. And then oh, there's a blanket. And underneath the blanket is a letter. And it's this letter that explains that fucking the word maybe the worst character in the book, the Duchess. I would say, it's between it's between sad and um. And also and also

and also I didn't need to call him that. I didn't mean to call him because that's very bad, homophobic name.

I just forgot that his name was that um. But also that that's how, that's how our narrator I didn't think that that was a Melissa was um HIV positive and got UM and pass it along to Joy, and then he ran off with with another man I believe to Mexico because he now was had aids and and took all their money and just bounced to Mexico for treatment treatment, And so then she now has no money and she's back in three rivers and is HIV positive, which in the early nineties is very, very bad um

much much worse than it is today. And she asked if he would ever consider taking Tiffany the baby if she passes away, and he as like, I couldn't do that at first, and so he needs to get tested. And so he's really freaking out about it and goes to get tested and it's really distracted during that time, and then he finds out he's not HIV positive. The

baby is also not. Yes, that's that's Tiffany. Is Tiffany very and a very white word for it in the year old Tiffany And poor Joy is just such a tragic character in this story, like just never gets a shot and she is like so apologetic and thinks that her whole you know, it was a blight on Dominic to have her in the house, which is also very sad because Dominic was so cruel to Joy um throughout the book. And then uh um, it breaks my heart that Joy's best plan for her child is I could

give him to this man. I had this man who was not very nice to me. He wasn't nice to me. But she's the best thing I've got. But yeah, we get these these hints of like that Joy you know, went to live with her mom briefly, and her mom had a horrible and her boyfriend and then obviously bad like the one man in her life who has been grooming her since she was like ten or twelve then abandons her and takes her money like she has been abandoned.

There is no one in her life she is. That is the real That is a tragedy of this of this book. And it's while you're sick for name and her joy. Yeah, yeah you wanna you want to take away the way dovetails with Desta, Yes, absolutely sure, so um so Dessa's mom. Actually, I'm gonna backtrack a little bit. Dess mom had a dizzy spell the day of Thomas's funeral, so Dessa was late and missed the grave side part and just was able to come to the reception afterward.

And that's sort of when they start to reconnect. And Um, they run into each other at the hospital when Dominic is visiting Ray post amputation and Tessa is there. He initially thinks to visit her mom because something might have happened again to her mom. But she started to volunteer with children at the hospital, like particularly terminal children who play with rabbits and some other animals, and she holds the kids and like holds babies who have dusted positive

for HIV, which they very insensitively call AIDS babies. Throughout the book, I will say not I mean not to dismiss it, because that is very intensive. I am pretty sure that that was like the media, Oh, that was what they called something. But I'm just like reminding people

that that was yucky that we did in the nineties. Um, Sodessa and Dominic sort of strike up this friendship again, which is very sweet and it would have been great if that was all that had happened, but there's more so, Umdessa. He finds out through Leo that Deessa and Dan, her Potter boyfriend, are breaking up and Dan is going to move back to New Mexico and it's amicable and nothing's wrong. So this seems like the one positive male relationship that

Dust has ever had in her life. And uh then sometimes actually Potters moved back to what happens all the time when you when you love a Potter, you know him to Mexico, Mexico, that's where they make Potters. I'm so sorry back to you. No, it's fine. So um she So he finds out through Leo and actually has a very mature response. I don't think Dessa and I are going to get back together. We're not just going to start dating again. You can't just pick up where

you left off. And I was like, okay, okay, Dominic, okay, Wally, growth, maturity, responsibility, but there's more. So, um, after everything that happens with Thomas, after everything that happens with Ray getting sick and then later having his stroke, uh, he and Dessa do start to date again, and I think they start off by just going to women. And even even Dominic is like I started off with some misogyn and now I love it.

Now I know all the players. Now, I'm a feminist women's basketball, a feminist and so he replaces Angie as Deessa's date to go to this women's basketball game, and then they start seeing and they started and Doesna starts bringing Tiffany Rose to women's basketball games because Joy at Yukon, which has a history of being a dynasty in the women's basketball and c double A. So it's thanks Jian. I am not a sport person, so I didn't need that. I'm glad that there is a history of that and

that that draws from real life. And so Joy had mentioned in her tape to Dominic way back when she revealed that she was pregnant with Dad's baby, that she um that she had met Deessa and had seen Dessa one time. And since Joy has now moved back to Three Rivers and Dominic has committed to assist her how he can but cannot commit to taking her baby Tiffany Rose. Uh, they're interacting in each other's lives again, and since he

started seeing Tessa, they become friends. And it's really nice that Joy finally does at the end of her life, because she does ultimately end up dying of HIV complications, she does end up becoming friends with Tessa and they do agree to adopt Tiffany Rose, so they get the baby that they had wanted all along, even though Dominic had his vasectomy. And Joy doesn't have to be anybody's inconvenience because she's dead from being sexually abused by her uncle.

And everyone lived happily ever after except for Joy. That I will say. I I liked the way that Wally framed reconnecting with Dessa. It at least felt felt respectful and and natural. You know, people do fall apart and come back together after growth and trauma, and that is a real thing that happened. And he was very respectful. They you know, we're going on date and had this what I didn't love, um well Joy that is just so tragic that she just just sort of like cannon

fodder to to Dominic's life. But um that it did sort of feel like after the curse was broken. I'm putting this in holes terms that he just sort of gets his like gold star reward for everything, and it's like and here's your woman, and million dollars a million dollars. I mean, you know, the one happiness the tragedy of Joy is awful. I was happy that Tessa was able to be a mom because she's so badly wanted to be like and I'm glad that Tiffany has a very

nice mom inessa. But that's you know, Dominic didn't. He just didn't need he didn't need the millions of dollars. He really got a part also about the best story, where it was proposed to Tessa and she's like, oh, I don't know about that. Let me think about it, which I feel like it's a good Deessa answer. Yes, she says, give me a week. And they still continue to spend time together during this week, but it is

minorly awkward and um. They sit together in like a hotel room or something and are going to watch the movie The Bicycle Thief, which is this old black and white Italian movie, and she's like, oh, it's the saddest movie in the world. He's like, really, I don't know, it looks dumb and falls asleep. Ten minutes into it. He wakes up. She is sobbing. Then he's like what is it? Is it the movie? And she says all right. He's like all right. She's like, all right, I'm not

afraid of you anymore. We can get married. And I'm just like, I don't know if I'd want to marry somebody who had to say I'm not afraid of you any more. Yeah, that's not a good enough fairy tale. And I'm gonna say, look, I did like the way they came back, the way they came back together. I

didn't love the fact that they did come back together. Yeah, I don't think it's a good lesson for for Leo to be like, hey, does is single now, and for Dominic to be like, we can't pick up where we left off and then proceed to pick up it would have been so satisfying. Look, even if they it would have been fine, like for him to have grown and become a teacher in the connect Nation and have a

nice relationship with Essa. Yes, I mean I look. The one thing that redeemed it a little bit in my mind is there's so much talk about fable and parable and learning lessons and we have to remember like in case we didn't know No, But like, obviously this is like a fictional book, and so I liked thinking of it in my mind sort of as a parable and parables do get happy endings in the way that like maybe the book itself is sort of a meta expression of that where it's like he was able to slay

his dragons and reach his reward, which is a reductive story, but maybe is reductive in a way that he's on purpose to serve a larger narrative. Yeah, I mean, I think it's also an important parallel to domenico story that Domenico desperately wants to be left by Ignacia and he tries to beat it out of her. He tries to lock her and keep her a prisoner in his house, and it doesn't work. It fails, She escapes and kills

herself and tries to kill their child. And instead dominic um lets this when he loves go and works on himself and tries to become a better person on his own before he returns to her, and the very least, that is a much healthier way to try to approach that. Um. I mean, I'm not saying that. Um. If somebody breaks up with you and you go to therapy, Um, then you deserve them back at the edge. That's not a prize.

But I do think it is a good paril level if we look at how do Menico traded love versus how dominant treads it, and then the last important thing that I think we need to talk about before we stopped talking about the book, and I do want to talk about the show just a wee bit um is that the house that Domenico built them what did they call it, the casa the due his duplex as we say in English, um, he gets transformed into a women's shelter.

He uses Dominic some of the money for that, which is a smart So he uses some of the money from the Aquatic Nation to build a women's shelter on the property that his grandfather bought. And I think that that is a very fitting way because it had been it had been home to so much abuse to sort of give back and say like, I don't want to continue a legacy. I don't want to live in this house and try and make it my home after it's

been such a site of abuse. I want to change it and make it and give it to people who didn't have what my grandmother had, or having my names that after he first wives club Edda off the cuff, but it didn't say that earlier. At the name names it after his mom. Yes, he does name it after his mom. I like that he specifically leaves out the tempesta. It's like Connie Bird, that is, that is such a tempestia. I'm obsessed with names and fiction, like because coming up

with names is such a thing. But like, yeah, their main tempesta thing is like their t and that comes back to the tempesta tempest tempestuous. That is, I mean so perfectly fitting for that to be the legacy of Domenico,

that that Dominic has to tried to overcame. I know that much is true, and you know, I let I think it is interesting that like Dominic goes through getting back with Essa, going to women's basketball game, starting this women's shelter, and be friends a lesbian couple, Like those are all the things you need to be a man who wants to just to make sure that you check

off all of these boxes. Man listening men listening to EN's basketball, friendship with a lesbian couple, and open a women's shelter, you are absolved all the terrible things you need. One note that I thought was really good about his friendship with the lesbian couple who was Dr Schaeffer and her perfect Monica. Yeah. Um, there's this great interction between them where he says, how do you two meet and Monica says, oh, I did some carpentry work at the women's shelter, and I do it for free and I

helped fix it up. And I'm on, I'm actually on the board there now, and he says, oh, it's Dr Schaefer on board to Mona says nope, and that they never talked and they never talked about it again. Yeah, which, yeah, I mean the real m vps of this book are Dr Shafer and Dr Patel. Yeah, really are the are the rocks that that Dominic clings to as he tries

to become a better person. I will say not to like I love that Dr Patel was able to help Dominic, but I did feel like a twinge of Orientalism with the whole way that Dr Patel was presented in the book, where it's like, oh, she has all this was Eastern wisdom about Shiva the destroyer and how right life is a river, and I was like, m I mean, I think that it's important to bring your own experience to the way that you do therapy with people, and like, if she is a Hindu, then great, I think that

it's good for her to use analogies from her own life experience to help like illustrate things. But it did feel like very other ring and it's like, ah, you have tried very hard to learn in the ways of the Italians. Now learn in the ways of the Indians. Yes, yeah, I definitely wear some character development fell for more of a stereotyped side of things, Like even even with Monica, who has who has to be? It just made me laugh.

I was like, oh, my gosh, she's a carpenter and and her business is called Women's Work with a yeah, and you knew right away you're like Dr Schaefer because of course she wears overalls. That's like she's a lesbian lesbian overalls. I mean, I will say Anne M. Martin did some very coded stuff with Christie in The Babysitters Club, where I'm that Christie is a lesbian. She coaches a softball team and she never wears dresses, and I'm like, yeah,

you got that across. That happened that like like the gay character gave ever gave people as just like a two different and are pedophiles sex offenders. I will say, gman, do not come to the real The real lesbian m v P though, is prosperitous brain oh yeah, Prosperin. Sorry,

I don't know why I keep saying Prospertine. Okay, it's fine for it's going to be a thing where we like, you know, when I first read Harry Potter, I thought it was hermi own and we're going to find out that Prosperine is like Prosperine Prosperin in the Actually I looked up I've been like trolling the IMDb page and they change her name for the show. They name her Prosperina. One more thing from the TV show I haven't finished,

but I did. I clicked on a link that was like, how the ending of the TV show is different from the ending of the movie. Can I spoil? Okay, don't, don't listen if you're on a spoil but um, And I like this um because I read it and I read an interview with the showrunner who was describing why he did this. It ends without him and Dessa getting back together. It ends just with him joining her volunteering

at the children in the hospital. So the doors the doors open that you know, maybe you can fill in the blanks down the line that that happens, but they you know, she is healing and interacting with children and he joins her in the hospital. Yes, does he still get a million dollars? I don't know. I didn't read that part. It just they just we're talking about the relationship with with Dessa. I imagine we probably also you know, gets money from the Laconic Nation, and maybe I'll just

still gets Tiffany. Um um. He does not. I like that much better. In the show, he does not what happens to Tiffany at the end, she doesn't exist. So Joy does not die. Not in the TV show. I kind of unless I was like in the bathroom and there was some sort of voiceover of like Joy stand Now. There's so much tragedy and so many characters in this book that like, yeah, to be a mini series, you don't need Joy coming back with aids that. Yeah, I'm sorry.

I also, he could just get his vasectomy reversed, Like it is very much a possibility. It's not like this is the only way they could ever have a child again, and how wonderful literally possible. Yeah, he talks about how we could get a reversed. I guess, yes, reversed. There you go. I think thematically in the book, like there's so much in the book about learning to be a father if it's not your biological child. And I think adopting is a wonderful thing and that's great, but I

I thought it was a little convenient. It's really convenient. I mean, look, I'm sorry. Um. I also think that this is a healthy will tended to baby that has not suffered through any trauma. There will not be a problem getting people to adopt a baby who had gorgeous

parents and is perfectly healthy. Like, well, if they ever found out that the parents were indeed blood related, that an issue, that's a good point, all right, Yeah, you know what if they found out, it's nice like, look, Dessa deserves to be a mom and should be a mom, and if Dessa wants to adopt this baby, good, Yeah, that's how I'll s frame it in mind. That's a deserves whatever she wants. What was upsetting to me about the show adaptation is the fact that they did not

have the part about Ralph Drinkwater and the police. They completely erased that, and they made it seem like they still had the moment where they're in he's like replacing the light bulb and they're in hatch and he shows him that Thomas is outside, and he says like, oh, getting your clearance shouldn't be a pro them because I bet your records white boy white. And that doesn't hit the same way when you know that Ralph has a record because of Dominant, So he just says that to

be an asshole for no reason. I mean, I think it's they still have the thing with Penny Ann and him getting penny and suspended right before she's murdered. But then it makes it seem like Ralph is holding onto a grudge from third grade. Yeah, no, Bill, I mean if it resulted in your sister's murder, I think that's an understandable grudge to hold on, but it's a bigger grudge. But there is more that is more recent, and that is also more related to the specific phrase, I bet

your record is white boy white. Do they go into that Ralph was, Do they go into Dell? No, they didn't because they completely erased the work the public works. Yeah, they made it seem like the last time that Dominic

had seen Ralph drinkwater was on graduation. Yeah. That's disappointing because you also don't need to go to the work to have that because it could just be Leo and Dominic just getting stoned, like hanging out, you know, and not and like excluding Thomas, like it could have been really easy to to have that piece and just blaming Ralph drinkwater because she's the only person of color they know. Yeah, right, And I feel like it absolves I felt like the

show absolved Dominic by erasing it from the book. From the book adaptation, um a lot of his misogyny, so like they completely cut out that scene when he's in Dr Cheffer's office and it is Sheffer, not Schaefer. I was the one who was like, it's Schaefer, guys, and I was wrong. Um, I will admit to being wrong. But they cut out that moment where Dr Sheffer or she's not a doctor, but Shepherd is like oh um, Dr Patel and then he's like, oh, let me talk

to him, and he's like, wrong, she's a lady. And then it's like, oh well, Dr so and so let me talk to him. It's like, wrong, she's also a lady. They got rid of that. Then I think, do they have the rape of Dessa, because that is a moment just like watching the hand be brutalized is much more brutal. I think seeing your protagonist Mark Ruffalo um unambiguously rape a woman with your eyes, it would make it almost impossible too. Then root for him for the rest of

the mini series. We're in a book, You're like, that's horrible, but there is a slight distance I think in reading a book for seeing something on screen, well, and you also you were in his head the whole time, and so even though it's repulsive, it is from his point of view, which is which allows you to not feel I mean, you feel horrible obviously, but to see it without just seeing a woman being raped is like, yeah, not great for anyone. I don't I don't want to

see Mark Ruffalo rape a woman. Well it wasn't. Mark Ruffalo also have a younger version of him, who I still always think that it's witchcraft when they have the same person play twins like parent Trump really fucked me up because I thought that Lindsay Lohan was a twin for years today. Did they do a a social network where they put his face on someone else's face? I don't think so, especially because Mark Ruffalo actually gained thirty pounds to play Thomas. I really like that his physical

just because I only saw the first two episodes. His performance is really good and different between the two of the vocally, physically he I mean a plus Ruffalo. And I read something online that said this show is hard to watch because it's traumatic, but it's worth tuning in because of Mark Ruffalo's performance, and I would say I agree.

And I think that the book is hard to read because it's traumatic, but I think that Wally Lamb does a good job of writing it and making compelling characters that even if you don't like, you still want to know more about. So I think that it's a good book. I actually like the book better than the four episodes of the show that I've seen so far, four out of six, and the exactly it feels like a lot of the nuance was washed over in the show, and like this is very tiny. But I hate that they

didn't make Dessa a college student on the show. She was just working at the bar, and they got rid of the fact that she was in college and the reason that he was trying to get a car and everything was so that he could go to her college to visit her, and they just had her working at the bar in like their college town or near their college town, and he was like, Oh, I was trying to get a car so I could like go and visit Dessa across the river while she was doing this

like manual labor. And they didn't have the class differential between them also, and that power was really interesting, that power dynamic. You're so right that he may be in subtle ways that even he didn't want to acknowledge felt emasculated by that. Mm hmmm. So I mean, and the thing is like we had talked in the group chat about how it was supposed to be a movie initially, and he definitely couldn't have all of that in a movie. But I also feel like there was room to possibly

have more episodes. I mean, there were only six episodes. A typical HBO season is like eight to ten. I think there's a mini it's a mini series. And Mark Ruffalo's like, I'm gonna get that mini series, Emmy. He's like playing two characters playing a schizophrenic twin. Gimme datman series, Emmy. There might be there might be like rules of what constitutes a mini series as opposed to a TV show. I think, well, because I think they have it as

limited series American horror stories also considered a limited series. Weird, that's true. I mean, I'm sure it was just a choice, you know, Like I feel like with limited series, it's it's just that it's like one story, right, I feel like that is much better. I don't want like a Handmaid's Tale style season two where they decided to don't need the book anymore, We're gonna make help what happens

to Dominica Guessa going forward? More like Reasons Why, which the book is literally just Clay listening to the tapes and riding his bike around town, and the show is like what if everyone gets sexually assaulted? And also there are guns, And I'm just like, this show is horrifying.

Just just one season. It is good to go as far as the book ticks you, and then we're done from I think you are really smart and like talking about that, like even yea, yes, always that this book is really well written and I found incredibly compelling even when it was hard to read, and even when I didn't like the characters, because it was so well written, and like it's the book itself is a rich text, Like there's a lot of layers with like mirrors and

twinning and religion and fatherhood, and I do like a book that I I read and I put down and I'm like, I can't wait to talk about this, so thank you all. I will firmly state no book needs to be this long. An insanely long book. Yeah, it's in nine hundred pages. It didn't make me want to see read um Wally Lamb's other very famous one, She's come undone because I thought it would be really interesting to see something that is more about the female experience.

And one problem in my hand with the TV show, and it's really brief. I felt like the TV show was mostly about this man and his schizophrenic brother, and the book is about so much more than that. It's about masculinity and the prison masculinity can become, and how we try to achieve love and race in America and how white people can abuse their power towards people of color, and um, that kind of understandably because you know, maybe it's a show that is just about Mark Ruffalo winning

an Emmy, which he will definitely do. He's great in it, But it feels like Mark Ruffalo Twins. He's playing Twins. Um, it doesn't. Um, yeah, it doesn't feel like it is encompassing the entire inner world of this man, the way the book is able to m hmmmm. I will say watching it after having finished the book was really great because I could see some of the themes coming out early on and the ways that they had adapted it.

So like when Thomas cuts his hand off and he's in the hospital and he's begging them not to reattach it in the show, he shouts out, I need you to defend me for once. I need you to defend me for once, which is a very explicit statement of the theme that Dominic never defends him, and this is in fact the first time that he ever is like, you know what, he has agency. He gets to keep his hand or lose his hand as he so decides. And um, I'll there was a visual like Danny, you

were just talking about twinning in mirrors. Uh, there's that scene that happens early on when the mom is sick and and Thomas is like, I thought we were going to go to McDonald's and then he gets out of the car and runs away and they find him a Dominic finds him in the river, standing in a river, and then they go to McDonald's and then at the end of Thomas's life, he goes to McDonald's gets that happy meal, and then later is found in the river.

And I thought that was a really interesting mirror image. I like thinking that if Mark Ruffalo does win an Emmy for this, that it starts a trend for all A List actors to find the twin story for them too. Then, Like I just love thinking of Meryl Street being like I'm gonna do if I'm gonna find a twin story, and this is gonna be the one I'm going to use to win another Oscar. Like I want there to be a trend of all of these A List actors just finding the perfect Well just did that. It is Franklin.

It is the worst part of the tu such a good show by the final season, And the most irritating part is James Franco is a twin to James Are he goes one is enough? Honestly, I don't, I can't. I can't even talk about James Franco. No. I think it's just a lesson that we all as writers need to start writing twins scripts and twin books, because then we'll get A List actors to be in our shows. Okay, here, here, here, here, Well, I think that's a that's a lovely note to end on.

Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to anyone else who read through this book. God bless you for making it through all the drama and suffering. Uh, this is really fun. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley

Right Drama down Qua is that on the drama. Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Pink Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotas, and we're produced and edited by Mike Johns. Special things to David Wasserman. And if you're getting ready to read our next book, we're diving into Lovecraft Country by Matt Ruff, which is being adapted on HBO for

next week. We just discussed part one, like the first section of the book, which is like page one to one oh six, So don't worry, you don't have to read too far or don't read it all again. This is an English class. There's no quiz and listen next week. Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio