I Know This Much Is True (Part 1)

can we just all say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo of preference is from Eternal Sunshine of the Spot the Glasses Ruffalo. Yes, yeah, it's a solid Ruffalo. Welcome to Popcorn book Club. I am your host, Danish Swartz, and I am joined as always by co host Karama Nqua, Tian Trans, Jennifer Wright, and Melissa Hunter. How are you guys doing, Karama? How you doing? Medium? I thought the the book is very sad and the world is very sad.

But I actually got a new bookmark that helps sunflowers on it, you guys, and your dress is also sunflowered, which I really yes, I was very sunflowering, very mad for me and mailed it to me, Tianne, Tianne, how's your life in quarantine at the moment? Pretty good? Um, it's nice to escape to a sad book from a sad world. So that's been really fun. Um. I also got a new bookmarks not as cool as yours, and by god, I mean rifled in my desk forward But it's star stickers. That's like a star that is a

very like mini economizing and who things tiny, Jennifer. You're zooming in from South Carolina. But it looks like you're against like a tropical background. Is it as? Are you like basking in sunlight? What is the weather there? Because it looks like it's like eight and perfect. It's eighty six degrees here, so it's a little bit too hot. Um, but yeah, it's also it's a sad week. I feel a little bad that I recommended a really sad not not anticipating how sad the world was going to get.

I know what, I actually sometimes think that sadness in a fictional universe can be weirdly cathartic. Sometimes it's like, if I'm feeling sad, I want to listen to sad songs, and I don't you know what I mean, Like I think it would be maybe I'm I'm just justifying. But like if I was reading like a very happy book about like people going about their happy lives, I would be like, what's your problem, Melissa? How about you? How are you doing? Yeah? You know, you know, a solid

relatively fine. I feel like it is the way I describe how I am every day, Like relative to the rest of the world, I'm very fine. Um, but yeah, everything's on fire and everything in this book makes me I think that we don't need to get into the book yet. But the first chapter I like read right before bed and I was like, Nope, can't do that again. That was a hard path of a before so uh yeah,

But otherwise it's okay. Getting outside. Got outside a lot this week, which was really nice, but stayed away from people who were being very irresponsible. It almost like I feel like some of the irresponsible people ruin the nature that I'm trying to absorb to make me happy. You know. Said, um, well that that is a very good segue into what

we're reading this week. Uh, Wally Lambs, I know this much is true, which was sort of like a hit at the time, you know, New number one New York Times bestseller Oprah book Club and now is being adapted on HBO with double ruffalo a double ruff too rough, too low. That's actually that one. When we're reading, we read chapters one through fifteen, So if you're following along at home, that's where we cut off. And obviously there's gonna be no spoilers past that point because I haven't

read past that. So if any of you have, please don't spoil anything I have not. My mom. My mom was like, you should because everyone else is going to And I think that explains a lot about my life. I almost did. I started reading chapter sixteen, and then I realized I would get I would have gotten too confused when I'm because it jumps so much in time that I'm like, oh, I don't know if this bad thing happened, or this bad thing happened. You know, Well,

thank you, Melissa. Now I owe my mother money. That is exactly it, though, where it's like this book um isn't linear in its plot. Really there is one one quote unquote present day that carries us through, but we're jumping back in time, uh to to find out about the story and the childhood of our protagonist Dominic Birdseye, and his twin identical twin brother Thomas Birdseye, who is

a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and um. At the start of the book, Uh uh, Melissa, you want to you want to dive dive into what the major inciting and y sorry not what gave me a very vivid night nightmares that night, that thing that happened. Yeah, that's why I'm

putting it on the spot. Yeah. So, um, Thomas Birdseye, Uh, Dominic's brother is in a goes to a library and he um it takes out a sword that he got from his uh stepfather and or he stole from his stepfather, and um chops off his own hand and like suitures it immediately like finds a way to stoppably, but he does it in protest of the what the Gulf football

for for um and he does it. He's he's sacrificing his own hand, which is based on scripture like a um, something that he's uh sort of decided is telling him through scripture and through God that he must do um and yeah, and terrifies a lot of people in the

library understandably and terrifies a lot of readers. Yes, yeah, I think I would be very afraid if I were in a public put their own hand off and then immediately with the mae he like he like throws it out into the middle of the library, like yeah, and you saw a hand just dropped to the ground. Yeah, you'd run the funk out of there. But you know what, if this book had taken place a little bit before, when normal people took place, people would have thought they

were being punked. People would have been like ash, but yeah, no, that is it's a it's a visceral, terrifying scene that is written about in such detail like that he like tied the the arteries to staunch the bleeding. And someone in the we have the we have a group chat. But someone said, and I don't remember, so I'm very sorry, um so that they for a moment like thought it was a memoir because it is written. Oh that's me, that's me. I'm an idiot who have not holly believed

that this was a memoir. I was like, interesting, but it would be interesting for book club. Is I could look up some of the newspaper reports on the time covering this, because obviously they would cover the man who chopped off his hand to try to stop the Gulf four. And I was so confused by the fact that I couldn't find any reporting from that time. No, I mean the CIA was probably behind it, like I've learned from

Thomas now that they were covering it up. Um and uh No, Wally Lamb is I was very relieved to find out um an author of fiction, of which apparently did not register in my brain. And um he has a bunch of sisters and uh teaches incarcerated women how to write their life stories in a very inspiring way and has a really happy three loving children. Well, Wally

is life. And I also, yeah, I also do really like I do want to say, like, when you write about mental health, especially in fiction, it's so often like sensationalized. And yes, cutting off your own hand is like a it's a it is sort of like if it bleeds, it leads, like sort of that it fits into that mode of like, oh, exploitative storytelling where it's like, oh, it's dramatic and attention grabbing. But I did appreciate that.

While Lamb the author did have like a disclaimer at the beginning talking about his process and his research, he has a list of like a bibliography at the end of the book of his sources that he consulted. And also I think statistically he represents the fact that most mentally ill people are a threat to themselves far more than they're a threat to other people. Yeah, I think it's a nuance that that isn't often portrayed in fiction. Well,

you know what's interesting. Even though, even though I know that this has now been adapted into an HBO limited series, and I know that Mark Ruffalo plays the Birdsey twins in the HBO limited series, I have not been picturing Mark Ruffalo and the usually I have been picturing Mark Ruffalo. So I wanted what everyone else I've been picturing a Ruffalo type. For sure, I feel like and this is not.

I feel like Mark Ruffalo always plays like a little more likable, a little more like morally good, like picturing a spotlight character that I have trouble picturing a Ruffalo this sort of low down like that on the ruff and Tumble. I think I'm picturing from thirteen going on thirty, and not the Ruffalo that is in the trailer and the show. Like I'm picturing like a younger Ruffalo before we go into the rest of the book. Can we just all say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo of preference

is from Eternal Sunshine of the spot the Glasses. Yes, yeah, it's a solid I'm gonna say aesthetically, I like Eternal Sunson out of Spotless Mine because I'm a sucker for glasses. But in terms of personality, I'm all Spotlight Ruffalo. I love people. If it goes up to the Pope, I like him little. You know, for some reason, the kids are all right, Ruffalo really popped into my head, like it's a really like I mean, maybe it's just like

a stasis Ruffalo. You know, it's like nothing too. He's not too sexy, but he's also not too He's just like a good guy that's around. I think I don't really remember the movie Hot Ruffalo. Yeah, what about um well,

you know, I'm gonna say Spotlight Ruffalo. And I usually thought Mark Ruffalo was kind of perfect for this because I think maybe because of his political involvement, I think of Mark Ruffalo as being a very righteous person, and because of the Hulk, I think of human as also being a person who maybe secretly is angry all the time. So yeah, Dominic is clearly not secretly angry. Dominic is

very angry and angry. Yeah, so angry. Mind. I mean, I go to thirteen going on thirty Mark Ruffalo just because the one that pops in my and I love a simple romcom Yeah, yeah, which is not absolutely not so taking no so to continue on um in the non very much not a rom com story. The major conflict that I think that Dominic is dealing with in the first fifteen chapters is obviously, his brother does this enormously public act of self mutilation. He's brought to the hospital,

but then to a mental institution that's more. I don't know, how do you describe it as a maximum security maximum maximum security security, a more severe place than his usual like group outpatient sort of centric facility. And I think one of the big things also is that the hatch, Yeah, the hatch and the new facility versus settled the old facility has more surveillance, which for a paranoid schizophrenic is

just like possibly the worst possible thing that you could do. Yeah, I mean you have I understand, I understand why, yeah, right, And he's very comfortable at subtle and like what he like works the coffee or he gets the coffee and works the news stand, and it's like his home, and so that's very stressful. He's very settled, oh yeah, and Dominic really tries to fight to get him back to Settle, where his brother seemed to be doing better until he

cut his hand off. But for political reasons, because it's such a high profile case, the powers that be kind of need to throw the book at it a little bit, like we were saying before, like it was this really terrifying scene where a man threw his severed hand across a library, and just for public appearances, you need to be like, well, we're putting him in maximum security getting evaluated, and it makes the system feel very futile and scary.

As it was, it was really interesting in that one chapter where he does meet with that social worker and she essentially tells him that that like this sort of move is like a pr move from from from the cops. That like, because there there was an incident where someone who had no history of violence snapped, as they said, and attacked someone and killed someone. So like they're doing this to Thomas as a show of you know, conservative action. Mm hmmm. What I was gonna say is I think

that it's really interesting. The dominant keeps bringing up like people keep saying that he's violent, but he only hurt himself and he's not a danger to anyone else. He's just he's his own worst enemy and he's only dangerous to himself. But I think what's important and um, what made me feel for some of the workers there was the fact that she immediately replies, well, he counts if you're violent to yourself, that's violence to yourself or up matter. Yeah, yeah,

I think that it's it's interesting. I didn't want to dive into this so soon, but but I feel like the natural progression is Dominic is a narrator, is not a fundamentally great person across the board's incredibly sexist and homophobic,

and his attitude and yeah, rasis homophobic. I mean, there's some like nineties language in here where you're like, Okay, I guess people said that, But Jesus Christ, it is not just the nine because I remember a good chunk of the nineties and I'm like, oh, there is a balance between like nineties language and then things that we're just playing racist even in the nineties, like the homophobia to me, feels a little more nineties. It does, but

it doesn't because his girlfriend Joy also calls him. Yeah, she says she's homophobic. Yeah, and she's. But I do think it was more mainstream for men to be called homophobic and it be okay that they were homophobic. It's like, oh, sure, that guy, he's he's he's just a homophobe. Like it was like you, oh you you you know, silly, silly dominant. Yeah.

I feel like when you hear about Joy's gay friend Ted, who makes duchess potatoes and lives in like a beautiful condo and plans to become a caterer, I just wanted to disappear to the just maybe the book could like swerve over port of Yeah, and they take mixology classes together. I'm so into it. What fun thing to do. I would have been okay if we just swerved for like a romantic comedy for Ted helps Joy find love and you know, Tad is like you you leave him, honey,

leave him? You know, just like it's like every day, like when are you leaving him? Is it next week? We gotta have a plan. She is a hot twenty three year old fitness instructor who carries Yeah. As I'm reading that the whole time, I'm like, joy, why are

you with him? Well, I feel like because she has low self esteem and she has problems because of the fact that she was sexually abused when she was completely dismisses and he's like, well, it was consensual, but as you call it statutory statutory where it's like no, no, no, and uncle and year old girl is in universe consensual.

But but she wrote him letters, so obviously his fingernails love oh god um, and it's more disturbed by her like her action and like her eating the fingernails and like the like never condemns the uncle's actions at all

in telling us this entire So it's really well. But what I wanted to point out is that even though our narrator Dominic is sexist, racist, homophobic, I do really value kind of that Wally Lamb is building this world around him where it's like, oh, well, I don't think while Wally Lamb is not those things, like, we're even though we're through Dominic's perspective, I think we're getting like really interesting women and people of color and the stories

that Dominic can't see. But we as the reader can see, like the story of the drink Waters and dr character in the whole book Waters who are That almost took me out though, Like, just given everything that's happening in the world, fact that the fact that Dominic went and accused a little black girl but you know she all intents and purposes reads is black. Um, he's a little black girl. A theft made her cry in front of

the principle no one believed her. Everyone who was a hero in his in not in his defense, but just to say, the reason they believed him and not her was partly because she did have a record for stealing food. She was great to find out because she was hungry, which nobody addresses. So he makes her cry. And then the next day she gets kidnapped and murder and then and then and then he writes a speech and gets chosen to read it out loud at the memorial service

at the school. It is just such a sick, sick, little twisted thing that he doesn't does in that chapter. I had to put the sorry, yeah, yeah. The thing afterwards where he sees Ralph get upset in class because the teacher has said that they just got rid of all the Indians. They're all gone. He disappeared, and Ralph

is part Indian. Yeah, they disappeared. Um, And then he realizes, like, huh, maybe racism is kind of um, and it just feels like such a evil, inadequate response to everything he's done. I found it the most chill with that exact fam Like one of the most chilling moments of Dominic recounting the Penny is I think her name is Penny and the sister who gets murdered is that He's like, I told the teacher that she was bragging about sealing oreos,

and I knew that they would believe me. Yeah, that is exactly the sort of like systemic racism that still exists, where like that I mean not to bring up current events, but that woman calling the police and knowing how she

can twist a story to her benefit. It's like and Dominic knew that they would believe and beyond that, he was he was like getting angry that like he's like, they better believe me, Like he was like, I better win this, even though he he was like getting indignant that she was by writing for her truth, which was

the truth. He Yeah, he forgot, he forgot that part Yeah, we forgot that the whole thing was something that he invented because and the whole reason he did it was because she lied about saying that her mom was going to get her a Shetland pony for her birthday. It's like, let her lie. We all lied when we were in third grade. My best friend in elementary school said that her house used to belong to giants and they had to renovate it to make it person sized. That's an awesome,

very good, very good lie. My little niece is a huge liar, just constant lies flying out of her mouth. Kids love. It's just fun. Yeah. I told kids in kindergarten that I was the author of Pnicula. It could have been Jennifer, thank you. Yeah, I could talk fully reading that, so it would have been like an incredible achievement. But that's so funny. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after the break. So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for

My Heart Radio. So we sort of do get this main narrative about Dominic and Thomas and the challenges of you know, having an identical twin who's sort of having this descent into into further paranoid schizophrenia peppered in with these anecdotes, and I want to focus on a different anecdote that broke my heart. I would say like the second saddest I've been in this book, although it's hard to say to the New York City trap. Thought about that,

the field trip, the field trip. So what happens in this one, just to refresh your memory, is the the boys school, UH is going on a field trip to New York City to like see a show at Radio City Music Hall and see the Statue of Liberty from Connecticut where they live, and we sort of see that this is where Dominic was trying to distance himself from which I think all kids, if you have like a lame brother or lame sibling, like you sort of do

that at some point. And so he sort of is trying to align himself with the cool kid, and he's not sitting with Thomas on the bus, and then Thomas accidentally locks himself in the bathroom on the bus, and just the way it's described is so vivid and so humiliating, both for Thomas and also I really did feel for Dominic in this awful way where you know that like he's not being a good person, but also who among

us has it been like humiliated like that? And I can just like like that feeling of just thinking about being in Thomas's shoes and like having everyone on the bus shout at you, like the kids, the students, the driver, the teacher, and it was like everyone telling you how to fix something that you just can't and in the

moment of the anxiety, you can't figure it out. Yeah, and you're in this small little room that smells like literal shit and you and it's just like I feel like I've been that kid several times where just like you don't and it's just like a simple thing that if you just it's like the left right, it was like tell him to make it go right, and then it was just she just mixed those up and it was just so devastating. It's so awful and precisely the

way that children actually I think, um, I think as adults. Um, I see like kids in third grade now and I think, oh, they're adorable. Look what are they reading. It's so cute. And then you remember that when you were that age, they were life size and they were yeah that um, yeah, they have no patience with anyhing. Um, they can say vividly cruel things without anyone calling them out or any personal feelings of guilt. And that's everything that's happened to

tell us. And also they stuck out. What stuck out for me in that scene, there were two things up. First is actually there were three things. First is that Dominic was um ultimately concerned with whether or not this cool, rich kid would still be his friend afterwards. And I think that being accepted in that way was something that was very important to him, and he could see it literally just slipping away as his brother became this embarrassment.

And I think that that's part of the tough thing about him looking exactly like his brother and either like we all want to distance ourselves from people at times, and it's like you can't because they're just a living mirror image of you. And then the second thing that really stuck out to me was that the teacher just was like, oh man, this kid is having a real

rough time, Dominic, why don't you stay with him? And it's sort of the beginning of this lifelong thing where Thomas is Dominic's responsibility, even when there are other people who should be responsible, that should probably be more responsible, and like even as an adult adult or adults, that should be more responsible, Like Ray takes no responsibility as

a parental figure as as he gets older. And then the other thing was that this that scene where they're at the Statue of Liberty and Thomas isn't feeling great and so Dominic has to stay with him and doesn't get to go inside the Statue of Liberty is the first time that he swears out loud, first time he says the F word out loud when he tells when he tells Thomas to shut the funk up, And I

think that that sort of is the beginning of the anger. Yeah, it's like he you really see why he's such an angry person because he decides to be a martyr, which is interesting because Thomas is literally trying to be a martyr. But I feel like with Dominic, he makes he like takes care of his brother, but he uses it as a reason to be angry with the world. And you're right,

that started right there. I also found it so interesting how he like spent that money, the like thirty seven dollars or whatever that he saved just on nothing, just to make, which is like so relatable when you're upset, you're just like, I'm spend a bunch of money and all the money that I have, and maybe that will make me feel something, and it never does. You know. The religion is so interesting because obviously them being identical twins, they are sort of that mirror image where Thomas falls

into being i think past incredibly religious thinking. He's literally like a prophet of God, and some of his delusions dominic after going through numerous tragedies and losses, you know, except that there is no God, and so he becomes incredibly nihilistic. But as he said, like still thinks of himself as a martyr, and it goes back to like I mean Kane enable the story of the Biblical Brothers. He goes, I'm not my brother's keeper, and so it's

like I'm not like a biblical scholar. But right, it's this that is like such a fundamental tie of like what is your responsibility to your literal brother and to mankind? And they've taken different approaches towards you know, religion and God.

And I think it also goes in the in chapter fifteen when he's talking with Dr Patel, like he kind of admits how much it has heard him, that Thomas no longer like seems to look out for him, that Thomas in his schizophren yet becomes really um narcissistic and looking. And so I think that's sort of an interesting thing where Dominic feels like he always has to watch out for his brother. I love dr I love that. Her count or to that is, well, aren't we all a

little nurse assistic? Like she gets that particular anecdote about how she was running late to a meeting and the guy in front of her was going really slowly and she's like, why is he making me move for my meeting when it's like maybe he is not a confident driver, And he's like, why is this person trying to get

me to speed behind him? And so we're all sort of wrapped up, and I definitely default to that in our own narrative, where we're the star of our own story, hopefully a romantic comedy for me first, not a c I a thriller for Thomas. The thing about Dominic two is that we're you know, he is such this martyr.

He's like this like belabored martyr, but he's such an unlikable character in so many ways, and it's very angry, but there are so many moments that I feel very tender to him, even though he's so unlikable, Like just him talking about how he would go visit his brother every single Sunday, and that that scene where Joys like can you just not do it? Or one weekend and he's like no, like my brother is expecting me. It's almost like he needs it as well, and in in

knowing that his brother is doing okay. Like in those moments, I'm like, oh, Dominic, you're You're so tender and loving and also a total asshole and and you know, using it in this like Martyrie way. I kind of feel like anyone in this book can be slightly redeemed just by being nice too Dominant. I felt the same way to a much lesser extent. Yea, it just seems like a nightmare of a person. Um just cheats on his wife relentlessly, like was addicted to cocaine. Yeah that was

very casual. Yeah, just just just seems like kind of a mess. But then he says, you know, if you want me to want to put me on the visitors, they'll go down and I mean Thomas saying, I thought, oh, that's that's really kind of do Yeah, that's so, that's really nice. We also get kindness from Deesta. Dominics is a single thing wrong. She was like a story part of Dominic, you know. Or it felt like that was his goodness, was Indessa, and now that he's separated from that,

it's like part of his goodness is gone. You know. Yeah, I kind of wondered if we feel entirely different about this character if we had met him at the point he and Desso were expecting a chime. It was a teacher in his classroom about what the weight was going to be, and everybody was so excited. I'm ready to talk about Angela and that whole story. But but the visectomy thing, oh my, was like one of the worst things I've ever heard someone too in a marriage. But

how dare truly? I mean, I feel like I feel so responsible for us, so like she's a real person, Like thank god she left, like good he deserves that artist and that little farm was there, a little male potter And I'm sad she went to Greece by herself, Like thank goodness. She felt free for the first time. Um,

and yeah, I really related to her. I feel like I've been in one very bad, toxic relationship and earlier on in my life, and it was like I spent a week away from him and it was like when she described how she felt, it was like, yeah, that was It's like it is this when you're in a kind of with a toxic person and you like separate and you feel like you have your whole self back. Like I was just like, yeah, Dessa, leave him now, we just gotta work on joy leaving him. Well, Joy

needs but I feel like they don't need to beat it. No, he doesn't. He doesn't even seem to like her. He doesn't he still loves does He's not nice. Yeah it's um, yeah, um, I wish joy. And there's weird details where you're like you can sort of read between the lines and be like, oh, Joyce kind of triang Like at the very end of chapter four year, it's this throwaway detail that she's doing his laundry and like catches a note and he's like, oh,

did you want this? So it's like when you think about it, like this woman who he's not nice to at all, and it's incredibly dismissive of and sexist to. In his own internal monologue, He's like doing his laundry and cleaning his chucking pocket. I literally didn't think about that. I think men like Dominic takes that so much for granted, that like the laundry ferry. Yeah, yeah, Dominic doesn't even acknowledge it. He doesn't see that Joyce serves any purpose

in his life. Just I imagine his mother was also kind of forced into Yeah, I bet he had a mom who pretty much catered to everything. I mean, we know in the box out, I can pretty much infer that she wasn't like, Okay, you're old enough, now I'm going to teach you how to do your laundry. Yeah. I mean everything that we learned about his mom is

also so devastating. It'saking, it's tragic. Like we learned that, you know that she is in this abusive relationship with Ray emotionally and sometimes physically, And we learned that she dies of breast cancer, and then I was like, this is just gonna keep getting sadder, isn't it. We also learned and she is. It's so hardbreak it's always I remember,

this is not the same situation at all. But I used to have like a very gummy smile because my job was misaligned, so I was probably like I had more gum than two when And so for like a good few years when I smiled, I always covered my mouth when I smiled or laughed in person. Yeah, and my mom would always say, like how much that broke

her heart? And when I had to go through this whole surgery and like getting jow surgery, it was like a whole thing, but it was like it was such a weird and visceral thing that I've never really talked about, Like how nice it is to like I want to smile and not cover your mouth. Yeah, it's like on that episode of Queer Eye did you with with the sisters that like, and she and she had messed up teeth and she would always cover her mouth and then at the end they picked her teeth and then she's

smiling with it. That made me cry. Um, Yeah, it was very nice. Uh. Does Delminic's mother ever get to be happy? Is it just that one day where they get to meet who was one time? I think she was almost happy when they went out to the movies for the back to school day and then she got that panting and she was like, I'm going to get this painting of Jesus because it makes me happy. But then was like change immediately. I think that that that image of the quote unquote crazy man on the bus,

it's sexually harasss mom. I think really haunts Dominic because obviously he has the same genetics as as Thomas, and I think this idea of crazy is very nebulous, you know, to his understanding, and I think he has this deep

fear of becoming the crazy man. He marked that it was like this space that haunts my dreams because I thought it was going to be I mean, obviously was a terrifying scene, but I thought something worse was going to happen, like you know, they would be get to go to the hospital or something because of the way he marks it, you know, of how this space will forever haunt him. Um. And they also just thinking about

like toxic relationships and abusive relationships. When she goes home and is crying and can't stop crying and then makes them promise not to tell ray it's like that, and not to tell ray that something that was not your fault a very very bad thing, scary thing, that happened. That was not your fault. It's such a clear sign of abuse of like they she would have yelled at her about that, that would have turned into a fight,

And it was just very heartbreaking. Yeah. The other the other scene about Mom that was like so heartbreaking was when she gets them that gift the typewriter and like wants them to go to college, but raised like they don't have enough. We we as a family don't have enough,

and so she wants to try and work. And just thinking about her on that first day of work with her hands shaking, and I like it took me back to my mom, because my mom stayed at home and then when all of us had grown up, she like started working again for the first time in like twenty years.

And it never hit me, like how nerve wracking that must be to have been out of the workforce for so long and then going out into the It just like the thought of the hands shaking and her going out to work and and I'm not even getting to do it. It was just so it was heartbreaking. Well, I mean, I think it's also like a tiny little bit of a triumphant moment for me too, that Ray tells her that she will never be able to get a job, like what does she even know how to do?

She goes down to a hotel and she applies and she gets hired a medium. Um like yeah, and um, in a way, UM, I understand that she did not want to work and that that should be a choice for people, But um, I desperately wish she had taken that job because I think it might have given her a support system outside of it, might have let her see that there were people who valued her labor. And yeah, yeah, yeah, I think Ma is a is a incredibly heartbreaking character.

But Ray is also this major figure that looms over Dominic. Uh. The detail that stuck with me is this idea that Ray kind of preferred Dominic and he Dominic goes into this with Dr Battel, but this weird feeling of like both guilt and pride. Ray was sort of like, you know, because Dominic was more like an athlete, more popular, that he really attacked Ma and Thomas and Dominic sort of got away. I don't know what did you guys make

of that. I just want to say something about the work scene because that was when like the racism really jumped out at me because that scene I don't know if y'all remember, but has the N word in it, and that's what that's what really forces raised hand in this college situation. And he's like, fine, I will pay for college because I don't want my wife to have to do nigger work. And just for everybody listening and reminder, I am black, um, so you can't see me, but

I am. But that I had to put the book down after that because I was like, oh God, it's not even about like I want you to stay home because of like being a homemaker is a full time job and you're not gonna be able to do that well. And we've arranged this house so that it works this way, or I want you to be home for of the kids.

Know that being a good racism and this deep seated like honor thing like you are my property and I don't want anyone to see my property engaged in something that I believe to be beneath them, And that just like made my skin crawl and ray. From then on, I was just like, I don't care what he does. He is the least redeemable character in this book again

because he both physically and psychologically abuses Thomas. Dominic mom, I mean he physically abuses Thomas in the book, Well, there's a moment that was I also feel like kind of blossed over where Dominic talks about when they were younger. Um, he has them kneeling on right. Oh my god, that was terrifying because you don't even like when they said it,

I was like, what is what? And then when he explained he didn't even understand until it was happening, the pain of it, and like the taping his um that was at hand hands so he couldn't eat. It was like a dog. It was. It was such like this sounds like I'm glorifying it, but like creative abuse, like abuse of a kind of person that has such a sick mind that they are like I I don't just want to hit this person. I want to find ways to torture them. It's all tord it's all means of torture. Um.

It was. It was awful. That was the note I made that scene that Ray like duct tapes Thomas's hands so he can't I guess chew on them whatever he was doing wrong, which children, especially anxious children do. So the scene that they described then is Thomas having to eat his dinner just with his like face, like a

dog in a ball. And also then I wrote in the margin, like and then he cuts off his own hand, Like there has to be some sort of maybe metaphorical are alel to that idea of like, I don't know.

I mean this is because this is fiction, you know, I could be reading too much of date, But also there's this idea like I think I'm not an expert on psychology or mental illness, but like, I can't imagine a childhood of traumatic abuse helps healthy development if you're already have those uh you know, programs inside your chemical

It just broke my heart. Yeah. Um. One of the most terrible, the most terrifying moment in this for me is when Ray's solutionus like, maybe I should have been harder on him, like your mother hating him, So maybe if I just beat in him a little more it would have been better, which, um, I think we can

all agree with not have helped. And even if their childhood already seems very traumatic and if that's how paranoid schizophrenia started was because of behaviors in childhood, no, Like, why would you think that because with the rice thing what stuck out to me about that Rice torture was that if you didn't cry, you got to get up, but if you reacted in any way to being tortured, you got tortured longer. And then with the tragedy is dominic.

His inability to show grief and express himself is partly what leads to the end of his marriage. He to get into it a tiny bit. He and his wife, Dessa, lose a child at three weeks incredibly tragically, and Dessa wants him to open up, wants him to be able to express their shared grief, and he bottles it up until he literally just burst out into tears while teaching a class, and then he leaves and never comes back back.

It gave me so much hope towards the end when dr tell told him that he can't keep being like a Tupper war love, that she could not the word you and sell those things to you. But it broke

my heart. It broke my heart with Dessa where you could so tell that Dessa needed to share that grief with her partner and needed him to open up and be there with him and express that, and he and I could not, And I mean the most heartbreaking moment for me, and that maybe was when he hears her crying in in the baby's room and he's like, just lets her cry, like, doesn't go comfort her. And he's like and has the thought that, like only a psychotic

person wouldn't go help her. I'm not going to help her though, Yeah, and then he thinks back to that moment, like if I had gone and comforted her, would we still be together? And like maybe maybe, like maybe, because it could have been, like you might have cried and then you could have talked to each other instead of getting a basective me. Well, she's in Greece a trip that she asked you to come on. Yeah, but I think she's making and maybe think she'll be happy about

I mean without telling her. Yeah, that was like Dessa was going doing this really big thing, like let's go to Greece, let's like reconnect, let's be with each other. And then when she comes back, they have this really cathartic moment and she cries and you're like, maybe they're going to get through this. And then he's like, I got a vasectomy without telling you. I don't believe in

God and I got a vasectomy. Yeah, and what I thought was so beautiful in that chapter with Tessa was like she had done the work of dealing with this loss and grieving that she it started to show that she was on the other side of it, like not that she was finished grieving, but that her saying that like now the memory of this baby is like not a tragedy, but it's like she's so grateful, And it really showed like that kind of progress that people go through with grief, and she got on the other side

of it. But He's just still so stuck in the tupperware um of anger, at the tupperware field with rage

that he did this horrible thing. Well, because you know, Melissa, if you cry, you get more time kneeling in the right kneeling right, there is something to him being like that, like the martyr, like taking that position of being the martyr in this situation where he does describe like at the very first several weeks months of after losing their daughter, that he's kind of holding things together, is like letting Dessa, you know, be with his with her mother and sister

and crying and grieving and he's you know, doing things around the house, getting groceries together, spending time with his father in law, and in some ways is like is sharing with us that he was an emotional rock, even though it was not the healthiest of things that he was doing. But that's sort of like taking that position of being in the martyr he's doing. He's doing it all over again, like taking on the emotional burden of

like taking care instead of opening up. It is interesting because yeah, it's like she he goes to the funeral home, and it's like he does all the things that are taught in sort of like fifties traditional masculine ways in which you handle tragedies. It's like, I'm going to be the tough one that the girl can collapse on, and I'm going to be like a tree trunk, you know. And but he can't do the other part um. And it is important to remember that he was raised in

the nineteen fifties. Yes, because when the book starts, he's like forty. I think, yeah, this is Popcorn Book Club. We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn Book Club. I want to take a brief detour. There is one story we get early on that seems to be kind of a departure because it's not about tragedy really, and it's not about Thomas. But it's a story about Ma having a handwritten memoir written by her father. Say it again, it feels like a

weird departure. Like, so the story is Ma has a handwritten memoir by her immigrant father who came from Italy and builed himself up. And he we get this subplot that he tried to hire a stenographer and it didn't work. So then he's like, I'm just doing it myself, and we kind of he's Dominic's namesake, dominica Um. But basically Mam leaves it to Dominic and it's like, here's you know, your grandfather's memoir and story, but it's all in uh

peasant Italian and hasn't Sicilian Sicilian. My apologies. He brings it to a local university to get a grad student to translate it for him. I mean, get the story about a woman named Nidra. Doesn't want to pick it up nature. I mean with Nidra, I only want to say that he describes her the thing that stuck out to me, and only maybe because I'm like, my partner is a professor, so I'm like this sticks out to be so much. But he walks in and it's like

she looked about forty or who knows. You can't tell with women who pull their hair back tight up into a bun and wear glasses around their neck. And I was like, that's so rude. I have both of these things going on. I could be funny. You just don't know. You just don't know. I assumed you were eight years old, Melissa. I just I cannot tell. I don't know. Um, I can take it from here a little bit. But he he tries. He asked this woman to translate this book

for her, and she's very which I love. She's like unemotionally attached to the whole project. Doesn't see why this is like of utmost importance to this man. But it's just like, yeah, sure, I'll charge such and such page for such and such. I think like eight bucks a page or five books a page. It was very expensive. Is it really? Whatever? Great? He is? He agrees, especially in eight Oh my gosh, right, I'm thinking about it earlier.

I guess because the big event happened in this could be like eight five maybe yeah, because it's like someone who Yeah, he's just messed around, although you know what what she's saying is she has a very specific skill set where knowing peasant Sicilian is not probably does not have a lot of income opportunities, and so she's like,

here's an opportunity I am getting. Yeah, I just think it's important to note that the mom is actively dying during the whole process, and she's like, like it does not face her at all, Like, Okay, well it's going to take a long time, and I don't care that your mother has to live. He wanted he wanted to have it translated that he could give it to his mom dying mother as a gift. Yeah. Um, I just kept thinking, Um, social media is very bad on a

lot of levels. But the one thing that I thought would be great is if you were doing this today, you would just put a post up on Facebook saying, like he does anybody speaks Sicilian? I need a book in like two weeks. Can you give me a rough translation what I've done it for like a hundred and fifty Yeah, isn't it. In that first meeting too, as she's flipping through the book and seeing that it's like

put together haphazardly. Some of its type some of it's in peasants Sicilian, some of it is in Italian, and she's like, man, is your grandfather is schizo? She makes like a quick she makes a clear little reference like whoa was he a schizo? And he and dominic is like fills with rage, and I think turns to leave, and then she's like, fine, I'll do it. And I think that's maybe the first little glimpse that we get about Papa and like having this off handed comment from

this woman. And then I mean, the big arc of it is that she ends up coming over to his house one night, getting super drunk during a snowstorm, tries to like hook up with him, he doesn't want it, and then she runs away, accusing him of sexual assault, takes the memoir and all the pages, and then disappears completely completely from her job. That is a really important detail you forgot. She stole the blanket off of his bed.

She didn't take it home with her. She didn't take it home with her, But when he was getting the pizza or something like, he stepped out of the room for a moment and she had gone up into his bedroom and taking the comforter off of his bed and wrapped herself in it, and I was just like, she has no boundary. She so aggressive, just like eventually like getting her own beers and just being like, well, what are we doing for dinner? Just oh, yeah, he hasn't

given her. She took it out. She took it out the check that he gave her, like my and she has the most aggressive person in this book. Yeah, she's so weird. She's played by Juliette Louis, to which I feel that makes sense to me that I haven't that actually want to watch the I haven't watched it, but that detail, I'm like, I want to see that. That's perfect casting. Yes, I agreed, I haven't watched any of it yet and I didn't look at any casting either.

Can I also say there's one the one very funny detail about Nidra, And maybe it's like funny just because the rest of this book is so pitch black, but the fact that she's like she when he like checks in with hers, she's like, you shouldn't give this book to your mom. You haven't read this. This sucks, And she's like, this book straight up sucks, and your grandfather is a misogynist and like a nightmare Yeah, it's funny because that whole section it felt like comedy even though

it's so dark. But it just everything else is so bleakly sad that somehow like a woman being aggressive while trying to fulfill his mom's dying wish and going crazy and losing the one thing that was gifted to him

is like what a farce? Yeah, no, it is really firsical, but it also made me really sad a very at some point hess his grandfather's grave and honest, grandfather's grave is written the great His griefs are silent, and clearly this was a man who like tried to air those griefs and he tried to put them someplace, and he tried to write about them, and now they're just gone and nobody will ever know about She's got to come back. Yeah,

come back for sure. I feel like there will be a return because it feel like and this may seem obvious, but that it's it is such a mirror of like he is writing this memoir even though it's fiction, like it is this memoir of his life, and it does go keep going back to his childhood and teenage years and building out the story of him and his brother and then he is like trying to craft this, like

bring back this memoir of his grandfather. And it does feel like obvious parallels between the two of like this man, it's all from his own it's all from his perspective, you know, and it does feel and it kind of bounces around, and so it feels like it's paralleling to build. I just have a quick question, what because I don't know if it's just my I got an old copy, but my pages are like purposefully and like the like

the book the Grandfather is like manuscript is described. When I first got it, my girlfriend was like, Okay, that book is fucked up. Don't bring it into the bedroom, like thinking like it's cursed, like it's like it's like I had like damaged or like filthy, like we didn't know. But then I looked at it, I was like, wait a minute, no, this is intentional. Yeah, that's so good.

I think the idea that the best Greeks are silent like that is I feel like the struggle to be able to own your story is like this is toxic masculinity. The musical oh yeah, yeah no, And it's just clearly continuing the cycle with another Italian American man named Dominic who is trying to share his grief in some way that that he can at least put it in someplace. I hope get to read some of um. Yeah, yeah, I really want to know what He and Grandma aren't

buried together, like something something bad happened. More about Mars past. I want to know who their father is. I wonder if it's their father is. And you know what, in normal people, we never found out who Connell's father was, and I want to know who Dominic and Thomas's father is. I want to know who people's fathers are. Now maybe that's my require. We should just have to know. We should be fathering every book we read. We never know who the father is. That's the theme of this podcast

now no longer about things getting turned into TV. It's the father thing. One thing that stood out to me when he was talking about Ray there was the end of one chapter was like, our father could be anyone. It could be Alessandro, could be this person, it could be that person, could be anyone in the world, but it's definitely not Ray. And it's just so interesting, like how I mean, Ray is a terrible man, but just how he like we will never accept that Ray is

his father, you know. Yeah. He constantly is reminding people that Ray stepfather, although although they have raised last name, which I think is notable and sort of an interesting thing that Thomas never or Dominic rather, never rebelled against, never changed. He sort of tacitly accepts that Ray is the father figure in his life while still vehemently believed,

knowing in his heart that he is just his stepfather. Yeah. Yeah, Ray loves in his childhood his grandfather built and they they once had their mom's last name, because early on they mentioned that when they were born, and it was like a news story because they were born on the New Year's that they had their mom's last name. But then when she married Ray, they all sort of took that heteronormative nineteen fifties little family ideal, which is such

an interesting detail. Good job, Wally. The twins, the twins being on either side of the year, I was like, okay, and like the first half and second half of the century to he's going to say. I think it's also an indication of how separate they are as twins, even though they came from the same egg and everything. They're not even born the same day or the same year. That's how wildly different they even though they look the same.

Half of the century. Wally really he's he's going in, can we take can we take bets on if we find out? Or not? Who thinks we will find out? Who we're gonna I think we're gonna find think. I don't think we're gonna I don't think we're gonna find out. All right, Well, so me, Tne and Jennifer find out and that and Melissa or I'll never find out. No Ma gets a love story. I want mom to have a lost love. But I'm going to it's going to be a bad It's going to be a charge today,

and I think it's gonna be bad. Yeah, either way. It's going to be deeply religious and has these babies out of wedlock, and then also never tells anyone, and they say there are two things they never talked about, who their father is and their most left lip. And she brings up the lip once, but then never bring up the father. So I feel like there's something bad there or something sad there that I don't want to

get into. Although the religious element is interesting that it could sort of be an immaculate conception reference m hmm. Or she could have had sex with a priest. That's where. Oh that story where she brought up the cleft lip to the so sad, so sad with the glasses and he really shut the hell up after that. And then and it was still an asshole about it. He was

still an asshole. And then he puts on the glasses and see and it's amazed by however, which I remember that because I, you know, wear glasses or in contacts. And I remember in high school, I kept on asking this girl in front of me. I was in the back of my math class, and I was like, what does that say? And I was like this math teacher is like just not uh like focusing the projector it's so annoying. And then she's like, Melissa, do you want to try on my glasses? And I was like okay.

And I was like, that's how the world looks to people, like you can see leaves on trees all the time. Um. So I feel like that moment amazing. But then he doesn't tell his mom, you know, he doesn't tell his mom that actually this is wonderful. You know, poor mom, long suffering, she's the real martyr. Yeah, she doesn't even get the luck that for clock, for the for the typewriter. Yeah. So what else do people want to see in the in the next chapters of the book. I want to

see uh. I want to see Grandfather Dominico's memoir. I'm really curious about what she was up there writing all that time I loved and I hope that means the return of Nedre. I just want to see a little bit more of Mesthyndra doing something crazy. Um, being a real weird, real weird fun girl. Truly a messy legend. We stand a messy legend. Karama, what about you? Did you get a did you get a request for for where? Obviously? Well? I want to see the paternity obviously, but also I

want to see Thomas. Okay, Like I want to see a positive, sustainable future for Thomas, because I, like, I don't think I've talked about this, but one of my worst fears is being institutionalized. Like um, all of my worst fears were actually realized in season two of American Horror Story. It was like it was handcrafted to torture me because I'm afraid of being murdered for my skin and I'm afraid of Nazis and I'm afraid of being institutionalized, and all of that's in there also, so yeah, so um.

But I feel like he's in this position where he was in a pretty good spot and now he's obviously gotten into a worst spot. And I really don't want him to be in Hatch for like years and years and years. And I think that there's nobody at this point in the book that can take on the responsibility of being his full time caregiver outside of a facility. And I think that he does benefit from being in a facility where he can get round the round the clock care people who are trained in how to properly

handle his his schizophrenic delusions and everything. But I would like to see him back at Settle, and I would like to see some of the stuff that Dr Patel talks about in the last chapter, where it's about like getting him into a group home or something where he is able to be his own advocate and do adult things that some of us sort of take for granted, like paying bills and stuff like that. So that's that's something that I'd like to see. We still have a

lot of book to go. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I hope something good happens for Thomas. Dr Potel gives me hope, Like that chapter really gave me a lot of hope for him and for Dominic, Like it felt like she was really breaking through Dominic, getting through his rage issues and all of that, and it seems hopeful, like it's the sort of co therapy thing that she's doing by like the setup of that

seems interesting. Can I say something very silly? Um? I love like genre, like genre, mystery, sci fi, like all of that sort of stuff, And that's a lot of what I read, and I like, at some point my brain, especially the Dr Bretel chapter one, to like what if they're the same person and if this is just all delusions? But it's like he'th on the outside and Dr Bartell is like, yeah, let's talk about your twin, and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I don't. Like, No, that's not what this book is.

It's not what this book is. It's not it it's it's just a sad story. I just wanted it to be more like a like a fight club story that's supposed to just like obliquely sad story. I know when I was first reading it, my brain was like, Okay, can this get better if they accidentally take Dominic instead of Thomas and Dominic is in hatching and I was like, well, he cut his hand off, so there's no I'm gonna say, there's no, He's not mistaken them anyway, there's no mistaken them.

I did want to just say a quick thing about Dr Ptell is she was so smart and so slick, and that she knows that Dominic is such a martyr that he will do things to help Thomas, that the only way that he would agree to like this therapy that he so desperately needs, is that Dr ptel frames its like, will you do this for me to help Tom? Ye? And You're like, well, she I think, I mean, of course she knows that. It's also definitely helped her Dominic, And I'm like, ah, you're so good at this. Oh

there's something that we have not talked about. What we didn't talk about the fact that they asked Dominic if he wanted to Reattach Thomas's hand. Oh. Yes, but he had to make that choice. He had to say no, don't Reattach his hand. And I think part of it. He said it was because he's just going to cut it off again, because that's what Thomas said. He was like, I'm just gonna cut it off again, dude. But I think also it's a way to distinguish himself finally, visually,

I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, a real tangible difference. So it's like he can't take You're right, like obviously, I mean hopefully in a world they wouldn't like put Dominic in the hatch by accident, but you're right now they know they definitely can't. I mean, he could just grow a beard, Dominic, you know, like I feel a little easier, or start wearing his glasses again because Thomas doesn't wear glasses. Yeah, Thomas Thomas is Superman and Dominicus

Clark Kent. He seemed to really resent that comparison. He was like, man, I'm superman. Um, Yeah, that's so it's interesting he he ascribes that decision also to this link of like Thomas all the agency has been taken out of his life, where it's like he's making this decision, and so he's gonna let Thomas have that decision, which I sort of I get. That's like such amazing, although

with someone who would unilaterally the sectimize yourself in a marriage. Uh, he attends to seems to be someone who is good at making unilateral decisions. Yeah, And you know it is interesting, it wasse ectomy is not mutilation, but it is a form of like cutting something off, so they in order to in a martyr sort of way. So it does feel like they both have voluntarily done this thing that is very detrimental to their lives, like to their body.

Do you think do you think the dominant thinks it's his fault that Angela died, like that there's something wrong with his ability to create a healthy baby, And like for me, I feel like he's scared that he's going to have a kid that has paranoid schizophrenia. Yeah, I think absolutely. I think he thinks his genes are are messed up because of because of Thomas. I mean, that's the scary thing about having an identical twin is knowing that your genetics are the same, that you have the

same like predispositions. Yeah, it's a it's a scary scary thing. And maybe he just thinks that like if another baby were to die, he just physically couldn't be stoic through that, Like he would just explode. The tupperware would burst, they would because he has His only coping mechanism is to tamp it down, and he has no more tamp space. It's a it's a tragedy. It's interesting how we can all feel so sad for this man. And I don't think any of us would like him if we met

on his side for a maximum of three pages. That's what I've realized. I'm like, oh yeah, and then he like says a slur and I'm like, no, I just remember who you are. I remembered at your core who you are. And also all of them, all of the scenes where he like loses his temper, especially in the institution. It's like or with with the cop and with it, with all of like he almost has it, and then he just goes too far and you're reminded of who

he really is and you're just so mad. It's like, no, you could have convinced him if you just kept your cool and weren't so hateful, but you are, so it's a problem. He's someone who thinks that the world is against him. Some of the tenderest moments in the book or when people are able to break people though. That's

why I loved the scenes with Dr Ptel so much. Yeah, that she's she's She's able to get him to talk about his childhood, and it feels like, um, there's almost superhuman power coming from her with a man who is with people who are very often trying what was her name? She Dr Sheffers a great scene too, and I love them. Yeah, she's like, I'm not I'm not a gal, I am a woman woman. I didn't like how she kept calling him paisano, which I had to look up because I'm

not Italian. And apparently it literally translates to peasant but is, which is interesting because of the peasant Sicilian. But it literally translates to peasant but the like the slang is like a friend pal homie. I thought. She's also kind of a weirdo. Yeah, super weird. There are a lot of interesting women in this, Like I feel like he's surrounded by all of these women who he clearly hates on a visceral level. Um, and what he really does I want to see joy leave? I know. Oh that's

one thing. Yeah, it is interesting because he is surrounded by all these women in Wall Wally, you describe their boobs way too much. But um, but outside of that, I feel like they are so well formed and unique perspectives and the way they interact with him are so different and memorable. And I feel like we're a man that kind of hates women. Like the central character. It is so interesting to be in these scenes with all these very strong personalities that challenge him in different ways.

I love what Dr Brotel like. There's that one moment in the beginning where she's like, he's like, what kind of tea do you want? And he's like whatever, and he's like whatever. That's the male way of just you know, throwing things away, and it's very decide and it's like and he and he acquiesces. It's like, oh wow, Dr Brotell, you are good at this. Yeah, He's like, I'll take the spiced one. I think we're all writers, you know, to some degree, and so I wonder to how to

what level? I think very often when when I'm reading a good book, I don't see the strings. But then sometimes when I, like I was writing notes for this, you sort of see the strings a little bit or what's effective, and like he says he's surprised dominic Is when he agrees to accept the tea, and I was like, that's a very poignant detail that he's willing to sit down and like literally drink tea with someone, because the act of like drinking or consuming food with someone is

like a very intimate, vulnerable thing. And I was like, oh, really, look at this guy. When I was when I was in college, there was a guy who told me. He said that he thought that sex was the most intimate thing you could do for someone, and the second most intimate thing you could do for someone was make them a meal, which I thought was really interesting because he was like, was that was that the first thing he said to you? No, no, no no. And this was not a guy that was like trying to hit on

me or anything. But he went to he went to an other college nearby that focused on culinary school, and so he worked in one of our eateries as in the kitchen, and I was like friends with the people in the kitchen because I love food. So I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna make real good friends with all the people who are responsible for the food so then I can get more food, which works. And but so he we would hang out when he was on his brakes and on shifts and stuff, and it wasn't like a sexy thing,

but it was just an interesting perspective. And just in terms of having this tea, I do think it is a very intimate thing that she's doing, making him this tea, and the ritual of it all and how she gets into her own history with tea, and it leads into us learning a lot about her because she's Indians, so I think we all kind of had that assumption. It's like, oh, yeah, no, she's been drinking tea and she's like, no, I never drank tea in India. I didn't get into tea until

I was in you know, school in London. Yeah. It's also the one time that we to see maybe the only moment of like pure joy from Dominic where he's like it warmed me up and it smelled very good, and I was like, uh, what an uncomplicated emotion of joy that you just had the first one in two

hundred and fifty pages. Well, and along with that, Dan, it's like that's the first time when he starts like asking questions about her, like he starts star starts relaxing about his brother for the first time, and just like enjoys a conversation with somebody and engages with her, and he's like, I don't know why, but I liked her. Maybe it's just because she's a nice person. I don't know. Well, there's also something very much about making food for people

or making tea for someone. It's something that you can very easily imagine his mother doing and something that maybe is certainly his mother if she was. I'm pretty sure Ray made sure that his mother had all the meals from the time, like yeah, I'm yeah, um, I'm sure if all the meals might have been horrifying at his house because his brother was being made to eat like a dog, it was something that his mother consistently prepared. Maybe that was a memory he could go back to.

When dominic is describing Dessa some a woman that he really loved, it's obvious that he really put her on a pedestal in a way that doesn't really signify the type of love that I think makes a sustainable relationship, because thinking someone's like a perfect angel isn't seeing them, and I think everyone wants to be fundamentally seen, and that you know, he really idolizes Dessa in a way that makes especially when he tells the story of their

marriage dissolving. I think even though he's the one telling it from his side, it's incredibly It was obvious to me Whydessa had to leave and should have left. So it was, like you said, really gratifying to see him like open up a little to Dr Patel and asked her about her life and this, you know, doctor with grandchildren seems to be a really interesting, wonderful person. M h um. That seems like a hopeful place to end, you know, with with Domin maybe trying to open up.

This was lovely. I think next time the next fifteen chapters. Yeah, yeah, that sounds great. That's our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Right. Garamadanqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa ft W and Tian Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.

Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes. At We're produced and edited by Mike John's. Next week we'll go further into the heart of darkness of I know this much is true. It does feel like human atrocity bingo. It felt like Wally was like, how do we make this even more fucked up? Oh, what do we think the prize is for human atrocity bingo? I think a nap. I think a long daytime nap. Popcorn book Club is a production of I Heart Radio