Answering Your Pop Music Questions: Taylor Swift, Geese, The Beatles & More

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Name three Beatles. Yeah.

Hello and welcome to the New York Times podcast, your Twizy Swift of weekly cultural chat. I am John Caramonica. I'm the critic.

I am Joe Coscarelli and I am the reporter.

Joe, it's mailbag time. I we get a lot of DMs, a lot of comments, a lot of emails, I'm sure in the Discord. Where are your takes? Where are your takes? It's so exciting. We'd love to see you talk to Drewski. We'd love to see you talk to Ethel Kane, Rosalea. Where are your takes? We missed.

We miss hating you, John. We miss it.

Yeah.

Um, I have a lot of takes today and they are prompted by your questions. We put out a call. For questions, we had a form. Shout out to Kate. Uh we never had a form before.

Producer K got us so many questions from a demographic who does not usually contribute to the mailbag, and that's the 65 plus demographic.

And we look forward to welcoming you on YouTube dot com where I hope if you are watching this right now, you are liking and subscribing. I wanna add one thing before we get into the questions, which is I have a lot of stickers. Popcast friends and family stickers. Here's what I'll say. Send us a screen grab at podcast and nytimes.com of your subscribing that you've subscribed to the podcast YouTube channel. That seems fair.

YouTube.com slash popcast.

like a fair trade, I will mail you a sticker.

No shipping off. No shipping off.

We're just gonna put it in the mail. Great. We're gonna deliver. I might, if it's nearby, maybe I'll walk it over. Wow. Yeah. Could happen. Okay. So drop us an email, popcast at nytimes.com. I'll send you a sticker. Send us your address with a screen grab of having subscribed to the channel. Uh What do you want to talk about today?

got a lot of very exciting, very frisky questions, some of which are in our wheelhouse, some of which are slightly outside of our ever expanding wheelhouse. Uh but we're taking on questions about Harry Styles. Yeet and Taylor Swift together. Wait till we get to that one. The Beatles. New metal.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and so on. So Stick with us because I think you're gonna find something in this episode that speaks to you and you're gonna find something in this episode that you didn't know spoke to you.

I thought you were saying that speaks to your grandparents.

Yeah, that too, apparently.

Yeah, okay.

AI and music?

Yeah.

That's where we're gonna start.

Okay, go for it.

James Eddie Exon from Los Angeles, California wants to know. If you found out that your favorite song contained AI generated content, would you like it less?

No. I don't think so, no.

Tell me more.

Okay. I think in a year, two years, three years, the overall position on AI in popular music, that window is gonna shift a little bit. Right now we're in this period of sustained psychological anxiety about what is AI gonna do.

I wonder why.

Well, to the economics of the music business, to the economics of being a songwriter or a producer or at some point an artist itself. Last year, you remember on Song of the Week, we had that Solomon Ray episode. Thus far, most of the uses of AI and music have been creatively a little bit. And it sort of seemed that a lot of AI was designed uh to trigger this very specific strain of emotional manipulation, sort of almost to distract from the fact that it's AI.

They sound fake. Yeah. They sound counterfeit.

Right. And not in a cool, not in a kind of like, damn, what a novel use of the art form, uh, in a in a frustrating way. Um Yeah, but is Bully itself an AI free album? Like who could say? Also, does an album informed by AI demos that doesn't end up using them does that count as an AI influenced album? All of that said, I think the way that AI was deployed in bully, which seems like heretical right now, I don't think it's gonna seem heretical six months from now, twelve months from now.

You're going eighty percent.

Over the next five years. Wow. Yeah. At least a little bit.

Yeah. I mean you mentioned Kanye West Bully, I will go back one year prior, music by Playboy Cardi allegedly features Some songs that he did not perform. Uh maybe even the biggest hit from that album, uh Rather Lie with the Weekend, which has some very nice Playboy Cardi vocals that we didn't know if he was capable of, and maybe he wasn't.

People will neither confirm nor deny that that song was made with AI, but it became a

Those Discords you should let us know.

You get two.

I think it's a good thing.

I think my answer is just it depends. I think if I found out in retrospect that my favorite song was lyrically or even melodically composed using AI-generated ideas, I think it would be difficult for me to listen to it the same way because I do believe. something. I don't mind technology in recording. I mind technology in thinking. I need it to come from a human at some level.

Which if that is how AI functions. It's based on human generated data sets. I don't want to

That's not the same.

I don't I know and I don't want to have like the large ethical debate about whether AI is inherently ethical or not. Like we can we can punt that for now. But I do think people are using AI in small ways that feel imperceptible right now.

And that's why I said it depends because if an instrumental element or a vocal element in the recording process, like What is AI? Is autotune AI? Is sampling AI? Is any sort of pitch correction? Like that those sorts of things, these these patches, you know, I'm okay with technology being used. to record the music that I love. I don't know if I'm okay with technology being used to come up with the music.

Surprisingly rauest position for me.

This might be a very raucous episode of Popcast.

The other thing the only thing I would add to that is AI as a tool of music improvement, I think it's gonna be banal a few years from now. And I just don't expect that that's gonna be a thing in the car, in the club, anywhere else that's gonna make me go, mm.

We'll see. All right. Our next question is from Savannah Noray in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I think it might be among the most popcast Venn diagram center questions that we've ever received. I'm a Taylor Swift fan, she writes, What yeet song is the right entry point for someone like me into his music? My husband is obsessed with Yeet, and he recently became a Swifty because of me, so I'd like to exchange the favor.

Ha ha.

We got a lot of questions about you.

Did Zach Bia send interns to uh

Uh astroturfing for yeet. Much like much like geese.

Yeah, seriously. Love you all too.

Ha ha.

We'll get back to geese.

We did get a lot of questions. I mean the the record came out not that long ago.

Yeah, Yeats ADL, his big double album. Uh I wanna I wanna talk about that. Uh this is uh s Yeats six studio album features everyone from Kylie Jenner and Grimes. Elton John and NBA Youngboy. Yeah, sure. This was like a big swing album. It's like, all right, like, oh, you guys miss rap superstars? Like introducing, yeah. Uh and then

Yeah.

Is I just don't know if Eat is the savior we were promised. Uh I think he's too derivative of a rapper, sounds too much like Young Thug, sounds too much like Future, there's too much dress up, there's too much False mistake. Uh... All of which is to say it's probably just one of the Drake ones.

No, I had to impose rules.

What's the correct answer? What is the yeet game?

Can I map out the rules first? The rules are nothing from the new album, because it's a bit of a cheat.

There's too many guys.

It's too many guests and I don't think it's the spirit of the question. The spirit of the spirit of Yeet. Yeah. The spirit of the question is the husband this is what I'm saying. Her husband's a real first of all, shouts to you for marrying a Yeet fan. It's a challenging task. Not everybody's up for it. So I do appreciate that you were able to put yourself out there and say, I can love you because, in spite of this particular part of your personality.

Deserve love too.

That's a hundred percent true. I also want to say that a couple that is a Taylor Swift yeet couple is, as you said, extremely popcast coded. If you want to renew your vows. It seems very obvious we should be there. It seems very obvious we should officiate at that. That event. And DJ. No, I know DJ. Uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll stand behind. Uh I'm a DJ since college. Um

For someone whose songs all sound the same.

That's not true.

I'm just like, what are we doing here?

Uh I spent some time. Listening to the first couple of Yeed albums specifically to answer this question. I haven't listened to them in a couple of years. The answer to this question is swerved it on 4L.

I know your husband right now is like, yes, yes, that's the one. That's the one. Okay, so here's the thing. If I played this song for Taylor in the reputation sessions, she would have been like, we could work with this guy. Right. She'd have found the middle ground. Okay. So I want you to put reputation on, play it top to bottom. Don't play the last song because we know that that's a swerve.

It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Sydney, Australia. We got a question from Sydney, Australia.

And we haven't been getting nearly enough come to Brazil comments, which we would be very open to. Do you think we should go to Australia?

Probably. Everyone should go to Australia as far as I can tell. They love music more than anyone on earth.

It's bizarre. Uh yeah. It's bizarre. I Sophie and I were talking about this the other day.

This is a question from Ule Impasso, who wants to know. There was a surge in female led rap in twenty twenty. I'm looking at Megna Stallion.

Yeah.

What happened and what would it take to get it back?

Okay, this is interesting because to me, Meg the Stallion is both the progenitor of the thing that's being talked about in the question, but also a bit of an outlier. This is a person who had viral success in the immediate post-COVID era, a couple of big dance-focused hits. that really set her on a path towards the Rouge. Mulan Rouge. Well, yes. Cardi B, WAP, Mulan Rouge, the What uh, you know. That's uh the FDA's uh food triangle, right? That's how that goes.

I was gonna go pyramid of needs.

But it's ma it's Masl yeah, it's real Maslow. Um and so what happened after that is people seem to understand that especially As a female rapper where it could be challenging to get signed sometimes, you're often getting signed under a male rapper's uh sub label or imprint. Um, female rappers were I think the most uh

It's like you know, it didn't continue like we might have

It's in limbo. Well, to me, Glorilla is actually the answer to this question where if I were to look at someone and say, I think that they are someone who's gonna be around five, ten years from now, it's Glorilla on the in the sort of viral breakout world. And then it's Dochi obviously in uh something slightly different than the viral breakout world, although she's had viral hits. Uh, but I wouldn't say that it's gone away altogether. It's like you have on the radar freestyles from Georgiana!

My girl.

Yeah, Samaritan and uh you know, Corteza Star, there's a there's a on the radar. Yeah. Like there's a lot of action. Also, you know, one of last year's great rap songs. Wim whammy, you know, great records coming out of the south. Uh I don't know. I'm not as worried. But if the question is how come things didn't absolutely blow up, it's because I think actually I I wanna ru I wanna hold my thought because it's actually related to a later question.

So I just want to jump in and say I think this goes to the yeet question actually, which is I think what what Ule is asking is why haven't any of them gotten as big as And Cardi had a number one album, Am I the Drama? She's on this big tour, but it was it's been quieter for Cardi, right, than than it was in in the first album era or good or the tween era.

Did go to the

You had a nice time.

I had a great time. Yeah. Really good.

Yeah. I can't imagine not having a good time at the Curdy B show. But same thing with Ye, there's just not that many superstars right now, especially in rap. But As with so much of wrap right now, if you wanna dig one or two or three layers deeper, like the niches are

Plenty gone.

You know, like you can you can listen to any kind of female rap that you could possibly imagine and it's probably way better than you even think it would be. Yeah. In any style. Right. If you want Atlanta street rap, you know, there's like the Anicias of the world, Montaleo from Texas. Doing cool stuff. Um, you know, caribou, you mentioned being signed to a male rapper, which could be a liability at some point. Um, but I think.

You know, sweetie.

Yeah, like the like that that Megs class, I would say. Um I think there are plenty, I just don't think they are becoming Meg the Stallion because I don't know that any rapper is becoming Meg the Stallion right now, male or female.

So it's a stardom problem, but I do also think there's an added layer. And like I said, it's not simply a stardom problem, it's also a systems of growth problem.

This related question from Rashab Prakash, and sorry if I'm pronouncing that wrong, uh, from Avon Indiana asks, Is the era of big rappers and pop stars collaborating effectively over?

So I was talking about systems of growth and delivery. And it's not hard to remember a time where Cardi B was collaborating with Maroon Five.

On number one billboard hits that I never heard anyway.

Ha ha ha.

Kendrick Lamar too. Yeah.

Maroon 5 was really about the rap verse.

Real gate real real gateway drug. We're in five.

Fuck that shit. Hey man, I appreciate you coming.

Thank you.

That era was designed for two things. One, how do we bolster credibility of our pop acts and expand their audiences beyond centrist pop audiences? And number two, how do I upstream rappers? and sort of put them in a pop context. Uh this is something that's done in a highly radio friendly environment. It's also something that's done in the streaming maximalism era where everything is a possible click to something else. And let's get two unlikely people together.

Obviously, the sort of er moment of this is the combination of Mary J. Blige and Method Man.

And uh Mariah Carey and ODB on the fantasy remix.

The last really effective one I can remember is Jack Harlow on Lil Nas X industry baby.

Junior.

That was a thing that was like extremely symbiotic for both of them.

Two rappers though. Not a

I don't think Lil Nas X is a rapper. I know you sometimes you think Lil Nas X is a rapper, but he was not rapping on that song really. He's a pop he's a pop star. He was a pop star. He was an aspiring pop star.

Comedian.

Anyway.

Yeah, that's sketchy. Uh but Harlow coming in with like a real feature rap verse that helps. continue his ascent. We'll get back to Jack Harlow. Yes. But also record of the year at the Grammys this year was Luther with Kendrick and Sizza. Sure. That's a little different. But it's not totally different. It serves the same purpose, I think, like on the radio. It's more of like a melodic turn from Kendrick and says uh is rap fluent as a rap fluent R and B singer. It's not exactly.

They're like sibling. It's like a sibling record.

It's not like a synergistic thing from two genres that is greater than the sum of its parts. Uh, but I do want to shout out

I love it.

Well, Cardi.

Well that's popular.

in the PopCast Hall of Fame.

Although producer Kate has a soft spot for uh Baby Pink, the deluxe track from uh Camilla's album with

Second person.

Triple him?

I like I like Eam Triple.

So I don't think this is dead, but I think endangered, maybe this idea, but it'll come back. That's how I feel.

But what's the what's gonna be the trigger for it to come back? Because I feel like what's happening is People collaborated with pop stars in this big way because they thought that that was the natural goal or endpoint or top. That's the top of the mountain.

I think Top forty radio play is a check, is a forever check in a way that nothing else is. And I think that

Who we welcome. Like we're uh I I think we should be clear, we're here for you too, even if the music that we cover I hope you consider it an invitation.

Especially if you're here on YouTube.

If you want a party, come over to my house.

Uh, this question is from Enoch Hendry in Savannah, Georgia. Great town. And the question is, has any other band showed the musical evolution that the Beatles displayed in the short arc of their career? Roughly 10 years. I would go ahead and say closer to eight, even, uh, in going from please please me to a day in the life.

John. Name three Beatles songs. Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

But sure, but sure.

Yeah.

All right.

I wanna do two things. I wanna say

What are bands?

Yes, the answer to this question depends on how literally you take Yeah. His use of the word bands because if you're not talking bands, then you got Stevie Wonder from Talking Book to Songs in the Key of Life starting in seventy two, an even shorter run. You got Beyonce going from Dangerously in Love, uh in O three to the self titled in twenty thirteen. I would say that's quite a big

Kanye from dropout through I guess would that be Yesus or would it be more from graduation through Yesus or what

Yeah, with accuse eight to ten years in the

And also my Beyonce years would actually be later Beyonce years than yours.

Sure, if you went from the self titled to Cowboy Carter. That's a Beatles esque run in terms of musical adventurousness and evolution.

So so the answer is yes if you accept that a band includes everybody who performs on a record.

If you wanna talk bands. I never thought I would do this. I really never thought I would do this, but like let's be real. Like Radiohead made Pablo Honey and then they made Kid A and Amnesiac as like the revolver Sgt. Pepper moment and that's like an eight to ten year span. That's kind of like objectively undeniable. I told you this is gonna be a raucous episode. Uh And look, I'm just gonna say it. I don't wanna get too deep into it.

Link one eighty two.

Brand new.

Brand new went from your favorite weapon to Daisy.

I don't know if it's quite as far as I'm not sure.

Thousand one to two thousand nine.

I don't know if it's quite as far of a little bit.

This is within a this is within a smaller scene. Yep. But I would just say no emo band took that leap in that amount of time.

Sonically.

As brand new did. So I'll just leave that there.

Uh Kate helpfully included in a prep doc a link that simply said list of bands.

What did you learn from that?

A lot of bands. You guys were going crazy hanging out so much in the 70s, 80s, 90s, even the 2000s. Just people jamming in a room and giving equal credit uh to everybody. And then uh

Depends on the band. Only Depends on did the equal credit, but

Uh

Yeah.

Uh yeah. One of one of my first reviews for the New York Times. R. E. M at the Garden. Yeah. Great night. Um I think Radiohead's a good answer. There are some bands on that list I wish I had written down. Can I can I look at it really quick? Actually, sorry. Can I Yeah, look at the colour.

Okay, so John has since pulled up the Encyclopedia Britannica page for bands.

For bands. Uh some of this I take dispute. I Brooks and Dunn, not a band.

A duo is not a bad.

I'm Uncle Brothers, not a band.

I thought you said Kanye West was a band.

Connie West is a man, but but Chemical Brothers are not. Um there were like two or three on here that I thought could plausibly answer this question. Uh

You let me know when you find that.

Yeah, I do think, you know, not a band that I enjoy, but I think you probably make a case for the Grateful Dead in this. If you say so. I d again, I do not enjoy that music.

I think recorded music is their thing.

I mean any you know, it recorded by you in your pocket as you were walking through the through the fields. Um

Oh.

Parliament Funkadelic. Okay. That to me stood out as a a band who did not have a fixed idea of itself, uh, in name or in in style. Um

Going from you know I think problems start At Sergeant Pepper, not uh please please me. You know, so it's harder to make that big of a

Start that. You mean you're saying it doesn't start bad and then gets good. No, it doesn't start simple.

That's what I mean.

Um the other band on here that I thought Maybe it's my version of your brand new answer is Sonic Use. Um, and I think if you go from like the true noise records to like whatever quasi-tuneful stuff they were doing into the early nineties, that feels like a pretty far stretch. And you can say here's a band that excelled at both

Our next question comes from Michael Daymore in Daymore?

Oh if he's Italian then it's Damore.

Yeah.

Uh our next question comes from Palm Springs, California.

Great town. I'm glad we're being watched and listened to in some of the finest towns in America and around the world.

Michael wants to know, is Adele the laziest superstar ever? What? First of all, really.

Rude. What? Actually what?

And is her overall lack of engagement in part responsible for the extinction of quote unquote big voice vocalists from the pop charts? I realize there are other factors contributing to this trend, generational, technological, market, et cetera, but it seems like the days of a Whitney, Celine, Tony, or even Leanne Rhymes dominating the charts with a Diane Warren song are never coming back.

What say you?

First of all, two parts to that. The first part first. Um, I do not presume to know what Adele's relationship to work product is. I do not know what Adele uh if she thinks that she is being uh strategically uh

Absent?

Yeah. It's I I d I don't know if she's making twenty songs a week and hiding them from us. I don't know if she's making twenty songs every three years and just putting them all out. Well clearly I'm lazy.

The Dell doesn't owe us anything.

Nobody owes anybody nobody owes anybody anything except the Taylor Swift and Yeet couple. They owe each other a lifetime of bliss.

I was gonna say Frank Oceanose or something, but that's beside the point. Yeah, I'm like, come on. Another album, like let's see.

Um let's see it. Uh I'm gonna get you a Homer chain for your birthday.

Yeah.

Uh Adele seemed to be working really hard in Las Vegas. I don't know. Yeah.

Like, I just I so I don't want to be like, I reject the premise of the question, but it's like I I can't know the premise of the question. I can't know whether that's true.

But I think what the what he's saying is there's not enough torch singing on the charts.

But there is'cause clearly this person is not paying attention to the British chart and also to the people that they s are sending over every three months, it seems. Uh have you not heard of this? Yeah, exact. Have you not heard of Olivia Dean? Have you not heard of Sienna Spyro? Uh um Ray Ray. Yeah, there are umpteen singers of this style.

Yeah, Playboy Cardi record. It just didn't hit like I thought it would, you know?

Now go crazy. Like come on, can you imagine? Go so dummy. Anyway, yeah, another free idea. But maybe the set of circumstances that would have led to more uh big voiced singers getting signed and pro like maybe it's all together. Maybe it's a companion thing to the prior question about rapper and pop star collaborators. Maybe there's something about record labels determining that that is not a functional hit method. Like also in twenty twenty six, like what radio format is that?

Adult contemporary.

Yeah, like what streaming list. You know, it's you know who it is? I yeah actually I know who it is. It's Teddy Swins. Mm-hmm Teddy swims. It's men. It's jelly roll. It's Teddy Swims, it's Shelly Roll and Brandon Lake. It's big contemporary Christian music. Um, but it is not, yes, post gospel big belting soul music, unless it's coming from across the pond.

I do think as we see some of these main pop girls continue to be on their twelfth and thirteenth and fourteenth album, like at some point Ariana Grande will make an album in the mode of Celine or Whitney or Sure. You know, and it's like Sabrina Carpenter might get there someday. Like Lizzo might get there someday. I think it will come back around. It's just not what is currently in vogue unless you come from the UK.

I just don't but I actually don't know if it's gonna come back in vote'cause I don't know if that is an outmoded talent in solid response.

Of about it.

Billy once every ten Billy Eilish, not a huge vocalist, maybe more inventive as a creator of idol plays on Survivor.

A little boomerang action.

It's Billie Eilish.

Billie Eilish.

Boomerang an idol.

I know.

Well thank you, Billy.

Mary Woodhead from Salt Lake City, Utah. You been there? Yeah! I'd like to go.

The air is crisp.

I've been watching a lot of reality television set there.

Yeah, it's genuinely like it you you've never had era like that.

But um Mary wants to know which version of nineteen fifty two Vincent Black Lightning. The original Richard Thomas.

Or the later Del McCorrey version.

So

The classic popcast.

Settle. Yeah. Let's go. What is this? This is From Thompson's nineteen ninety one album, Rumor and Sigh. It's a Beautiful ballad about a man in his rare motorcycle. Yes. And his redheaded girlfriend who he leaves it to after he acts like a bonehead. Um I think this is

Hands upon a episode of America's Most Wanted.

I think it's

This is like.

Kind of like Rebel Without a Cause vibes in this song, right? Uh Bike Riders. Anyone seen Bike Riders? Good good film. Uh I I recommend it. Um I gotta go with McCorrey.

Yeah.

I love the fiddle. I think uh the higher vocal tone just like takes the narrative to different places. Look, Thompson, finger picking the hell out of that guitar. Like, you know, I just I see what he's doing up there. I know he wrote the song. I gotta give him points for that.

Ha ha

I'm trying so hard.

Ha ha Ha ha ha.

Try really hard. Yeah. Uh huh.

But I think if I were gonna choose one canonical version, I think it has to be the cover.

Yeah. So I never was able to really get into Richard Thompson. And there's something about the voice that feels um Like unsteady at the margins in a way that never fully connected for me, like in the older stuff and also in this, I would classify this as later stuff. To me, this is a very well written song delivered kind of haggardly.

Isn't that what this genre is?

Yeah yeah no no of course but like and yes And yet somehow there in in the best folk of his era, there is a concision. There uh there are these guardrails, and there's something about his delivery on this song that felt

ЧУЛО!

And I to be candid, I had not heard the Domalcore version. I listened to it and I was like, oh, they stitched this bad boy up. This is tight. It was I I It's interesting because in the original, I'm listening to the story and I'm like, damn, the story is like unraveling at a bizarre pace and it's going in three different directions at once. And oh what, he's robbing, he's in a hospital, he's he's giving away. Um, red hair and black leather.

My favorite combination?

favorite color scheme. Incredible like that's a bar. I can't literally can't believe no one's ripped that off. Um But the story itself feels like it's kind of like it's like lava moving in a bunch of different directions. And then you listen to the Del McCorey version, and it's just so like.

You listen to your Richard Thompson.

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Our next question is from a longtime listener. This is Ryan Sartor in Glendale, California. What's up, Ryan? Thank you, Ryan, for always submitting good questions. Uh Ryan writes, I'm forty years old, but I work with some younger people who love Charlie XCX and hate Taylor Swift.

Real gen pop question.

Yeah, which is you know, why is why is what I grew up liking so much better than what my kids are into.

First of all, can I say something?

coworkers.

Ryan and to everybody who watches popcasts and listens to popcasts and whatever format. As long as you watch or listen to podcasts, you will never be washed.

Yeah.

It's an affirmation you say to yourself in the mirror.

I don't have to say'cause I was never washed. So I don't have to be operating in definitional opposition to being washed'cause I'm not washed.

This is like a it's a timeless thing, right? Like everything that came after me is trash.

Yeah, it's but this is also this is a this is a struggle. For me, this is a struggle in my in this profession for me,'cause I think even I've had two or three generations of peers at different times who seem to be walking the same road of curiosity and open earedness and

Yeah, this is where I draw the line.

Yeah, and that to me is uh it's it's uh it's wasteful.

Yeah.

And it's um I'd say it's uh it's a form of neglect. You're neglecting tending to your own curiosities, you're neglecting entire universes of styles. Um so I reject like the question about why is there no Whitney or Celine, like that's a a valid subset.

Because change sounds.

And also it's not that people don't know how to sing, it's just that the particular outlets for the people who do know how to sing are are evolving and changing, and sometimes in ways that are Mm far away from the radio. Yeah. Um

But

As far as the people not liking Taylor and loving Charlie, uh

Well I actually

Do you have an answer?

'Cause I like how Ryan phrased this, which is like, what tools can I use to evaluate whether I'm right or they're right? And I think one of the tools you can use is Stripping away context because when I see him say the Charlie fans I know hate Taylor, to me that is not musical as much as it is Ideological it's

Well we we don't know that.

We don't, but I think but I think there's baggage with that, right? These are two pop stars who To hear the internet tell it.

War.

at war and like you can only be on one side or the other. So I think if you can strip away the extracurricular noise, the marketing in a lot of the cases, uh and come to your own opinion without the input of the scroll, which is really tough for all of us, for myself included. Like, do I hate this music or do I hate

Oh, I thought you were saying and secretly loved it.

I'm not ready to go there yet, but stay tuned. Uh no. Uh still not for me. It's fine. But I think that there is this idea, you know, uh Chuck Klosterman, longtime music critic, was talking about this recently uh on the Bill Simmons podcast and they were talking about, Oh, my kids are listening to George Harrison or The Smashing Pumpkins and Nirvana for the first time and and they're like, Oh, like

Okay, but I have so I have a slightly different perspective on this, which is It's one thing, and this is where uh age matters and life experience matters. It's one thing to love the work of Charlie XX if the work of Charlie X is

Formative.

for you, if it's something you encountered early in your development and understanding of pop music or at important moment by. No, no, I'm no no no. I mean early.

Only formative. That's you can only like Charlie if she's formative.

This is but I'm this is what I'm saying. Like there is a difference between appreciating what Charlie does on an aesthetic level if it's an early taste level setter. and appreciating Charlie if it comes after five, ten, fifteen, twenty years of pop consumption. And I think what Ryan's maybe getting at in this question is Is Charlie your entry point? What if your entry point is early gaga? What if it's Madonna? How you feel about Charlie when you grow up informed by that other stuff? To me.

Josh Dell in Paris, France.

Actual?

Wants to know.

Great towns, Savannah, Georgia, Salt Lake City, Paris, France.

Springs.

Palm Springs.

Uh Geese made it to Paris apparently. Uh are Geese the Joe Biden of rock? That is making everyone believe this is actually I think this is pretty smart.

Used.

Funny. Uh making everyone believe that we're going back to a time where guitar based bands have a global appeal when in fact that will never be the case again.

Or

Or are they a harbinger of a new revitalized era for the genre?

You you gotta go first on this.

Like are they a breath of fresh air? And a sign of things to come, or are they like a last gasp and actually quite backward looking? You know, say what you will about Joe Biden. I think that that's what Josh Josh means by

Yeah.

Our geese, the Joe Biden of rock. I think geese are a change candidate. I kind of think Geese are not the Joe Biden over. I kind of think it's not fumes. I think that when you look at something like

Geese the eight year run of geese is what you're saying? Is better than the Beatles?

I did not say that. I think when you look at something like the popularity of the strokes on TikTok, I think if you look at something like how influential the nineteen seventy five have been as a band where every young band, quote unquote, will say It's Matty Healy for me. You know.

Maddie, come on the pod.

Like I just think that there will always be a desire from young people for some guys who smoke cigarettes and look kinda cool.

Okay, so that is the uncynical version of my take. Or girls.

We're keeping all that. I prefer rock bands with girls in them.

I just do. So here is my like you said the thing that I was thinking, but I was thinking it through a more cynical lens, which is shocking. Which is uh bros need a band. Right. They just need a band. There's neat bands. Bros need a band. I'm sorry. I know this is like uh it's un it's uncaring. It's not that it's unpopular to say, it's uncaring to say. Uh it's it's not

Old bands, people love old bands.

Never heard any of those. Um bros need a band. Can I just briefly tell my anxious story about big geese silent?

Cut it, but yes.

Silencing being silenced by big geese. All right. So I was trying out a personal TikTok account because I wanted to try out some formats without burdening the official account. Like and subscribe, please, Instagram and TikTok. Uh so I had a personal account and the first video on the personal account was my attempt at a concert review of the Geese Show at Brooklyn Paramount.

Um who I talked to?

I know who you talk to. Um, and so I did I I I downloaded Cap Cut. I like texted Pat, like, how do I use Cap Cut? Like we really was going for it, right? And I made a video, uh, filmed it in the car, not driving, not driving. Um, and there was in one small section of filmed uh concert uh footage.

Ha ha ha.

Wow. Uh but you know what they can't do? They can't shut down this YouTube. We're gonna put some of this video right here, right now. fire yeah y'all gonna watch it

was very damp, very moist, a lot of male sweat.

All right, John, we got so many good questions and I really want to get to A bunch more of them. So let's turn this into a lightning round and just hit these a little bit more quickly than our very thoughtful responses for the past four.

Bars only, that's what you're saying? Yep.

Bar only. Okay. Go for it. Uh Eloise Custodio in Manila, Philippines, wants to know what are your thoughts on Harry Styles album and ads, Be Honest. Dot dot dot dot.

Ha ha ha.

First of all, do you think I'm not going to be honest?

Right. Good point.

Okay. Um here is a thought about Harry Style. Uh Harry Styles is immensely famous and has access to tremendous resources which open up the window for a tremendous amount of possibility, of which he avails himself of almost none. We take Harry's music as seriously as Harry does.

I was gonna say I was taught if you don't have anything nice to say, you move on to the next question. Uh Aaron Pratt in Hendersonville, North Carolina asks a really good meaty question. Uh I teach college students music theory. Last semester, several of my students told me about their intense love for the British band sleep tokens. Maybe they read year end lists in the New York Times or

Vessel, come on the pod. Vessel. I'm talking to you right now. I know you're watching, you're like, I don't do interviews. Uh come put the whole thing on, sit, do it. Yeah, we'll do we'll a full a full costume episode off or stand.

Shout out to Bessel. Uh classical references abound, the most recent album, even in Arcadia. I haven't delved into the back catalog, but I must admit the shallow polystylism of the Arcadia album does not give me much hope that their albums will impress me.

Song of 2025?

Is the apparently massive popularity of a group a product of young men craving lore as a substitute for more traditional but increasingly inaccessible ways to create a meaningful life, or am I just getting too old to understand the youth today? Uh Aaron, you seem like a great professor of of music theory. Incredible. I think this is a spot on read that

You said men need romantic too. Men

Men need romantic too. Men need lore. Men need friends and backstory and message boards and all that.

Okay. This goes with

Jose Hinarte's question from Brooklyn, New York, uh, in which he asks, is it socially permissible for a well adjusted elder millennial uh to openly enjoy two thousands new metal without a shred of irony, break stuff in this economy? He asks.

Uh first of all, if you are operating in a framework of social permission, you've already lost.

Listen to whatever the hell you want, Jose.

Yeah, that's my break stuff. Great record.

Michael Sagan, another longtime popcast head. Thank you, Michael. Yep. Chicago, Illinois. He asked. Yes or no, has Skrillex's evolution from pop punk to bro step to tasteful EDM while maintaining his artistic voice and prolific output? Is that one of the most beautiful and iconic trajectories of that scene?

I think we just answered our Beatles question.

Skrillex.

Scroll up.

From first to last. That was the Screamo band who I saw at Warp Tour, probably like two thousand four ish.

Just give it away.

Really that long ago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Scary Monster is a nice break. It's came out in twenty ten. Still one of the great songs, EPs of the twenty first century.

an incredible pop album that's not pop.

He has essentially no public profile. Come on popcasts, uh has a cool label, put out that Andy Warhol project last year. Yeah, two albums a couple of years before that.

Also he's in an interesting place. He's also an interesting place where on the one hand, he's making music that's like maybe the harshest of his whole career, but then on the other hand, he's making different music that's almost like Fred again adjacent. He's like, there's the Fred again efication of Skrillex, but then there's also the I'm shredding it all version of Skrillex. And he's doing it both at the same time and

Yeah.

Damn. I can't believe the answer to that question is Skrilla.

Yeah, right. Uh and definitely to what Mike said, uh super beautiful, especially from the emote pop punk hardcore post hardcore scene. Um, I had the pleasure of seeing Scroll X DJ not that long ago with Dylan Brady of Hundred Gex at the closing of Dylan Brady's old studio in Los Angeles. I just had like a little party. Uh, and then they just went back to back and it was like among the most beautiful little Fan base.

You described it as very wholesome.

extremely wholesome yeah um and the music was awesome the windows were shaking uh local families were like taking it

I saw there was like drones.

Sick drone footage.

Um and yeah, this Skrillax record with young Miko Duro is really good.

Okay, this is a bizarre one, but I felt like I had to use my reporter skills to get to the bottom of it because it was

Did a journalism.

Unique. Yeah. I did some journalism for this mailbag. So don't ever say Popcast never did anything for you. Peggy in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, uh, who asked. Two separate friends of mine are completely convinced that Haley Williams sings backup vocals on Taylor Swift's Bad Blood, particularly from and thank you for the timestamps, two fifty one to two fifty four on the song.

Should we listen to that real quick?

Okay, Peggy writes their reasoning is that it sounds like her, and she mouths that part of the song in the

Now we know

I think Haley being present in the studio and sending vocals remotely is impractical and the video is a coincidence. What do you think? So doesn't matter what I think because I went straight to the source, asked Haley's manager. Leah Hodgkiss, thanks Leah for humoring us. Uh and she wrote, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Part of me wants to leave the mystique, but we can confirm she is not singing background vocals. This is

That's good. We should do this every mailbag episode.

Ask us something weird and Use our contacts to try to get to the bottom of it for you. Yeah. Tell your friends you were right and they are a little bit crazy. Elliot Weil, while apologies, from Omaha, Nebraska asks a sad question. Is Sam Hunt in the Kia asylum?

No. Rude. No. Next question.

Ha ha ha.

Sam Hond is a load bearing artist for popcast. Like, no, I don't ex I no, no, no. No, what's that? Take it back.

Take it back.

Take it back.

Come come up with it right now.

Say uh a country equivalent of the kiosk.

Kia s I just want to say the Kia Asylum offensive as a concept. Leave her alone. Just leave everyone alone.

They were playing My Neck, My Back, uh before the Cardi show at Barclays. Everybody loved it. You know.

Who should cover my neck and my back? Sam Hunt.

Can I just say I really gotta go full circle? I gotta go far circle. If you know how to use AI. You can create Sam Hunt covering my neck, my back. We will play it on a future episode of the podcast. Well literally fly to your home, but he's also gonna bring police protection. I for one would like to hear that people worry about AI and yet no one is doing Sam Hunt covers of My Nick, My Bag. You're worried about the wrong things, is what I got said.

Amanda Herrera in Tolleson, Arizona, okay wants to know our thoughts on Carol G. She says you've given a lot of space to Bad Bunny on the podcast, but Carol G is arguably one of the biggest Latin crossover stars w without releasing an album in English. Completely correct. Carol G, come on the show. Yeah. We should talk about you more and we

Good. Carol G like Carol G is someone who I somehow still find myself even more surprised every time I listen to Carol G Records, where I'm like, damn. It's really good. Yeah. Just gets it's um good and consistent. Yes. Interesting and consistent, which is hard to pull off.

Good flag, Amanda. Thank you. Uh Daniel Williamson in Columbus, Ohio asks, should the replacements be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

I'm not allowed. Oh, right. Uh first of all, the rock and roll hall of fame should be abolished. Uh, I think just on principle. Uh, the people who run that, the people who are organizing that. That's I'm not not terribly interested in the rock and roll hall of fame. Uh sure. Yes, fine. If that's a thing that's valid to you, sure. Yes. Shout out Columbus, Ohio. Shout out Hanif. Shout out Heat Archive.

Sarah Bush in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania asks. Oh man, I just love this stuff. These people just know us. I love this. Sarah Bush in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania asks, Is you two overrated? Underrated or properly rated in twenty twenty six?

Damn. Um... This may surprise you. I think they are underrated in twenty twenty six.

And I think the answer is what everyone knows it to be, which is shouldn't have put that damn album on the iPod. Yeah.

Yeah, really derailed. Just like set ten it was like uh ten years of bad luck doing that. I just think it's

All millennials and Gen Z know about them.

Yeah.

And like maybe Kendrick collaboration.

I have dragged U two and also I would say U two fans and standem many times on this show. But

Amazing albums.

Yeah, the first four or five albums, great. Um, there was also an incredible question I want to say in like on an earlier mailbag about like Catholic music in you two, like in the intersection between two? Anyway, that was go go find that. Google that. Great, great question. Um Yeah. I would say YouTube is basically unrated in twenty twenty six, which makes them underrated. And they

Put out music.

Enough ti yes, enough time has passed that I think we can safely and comfortably say early U2 was excellent and we do recommend it.

But they'll be fine. The reputation will come back. Sure. Um, John, our last batch of questions are about popcasts.

Wow.

Meta the meta round. Yeah, okay. And so I think we should touch on a couple of these as we go out, uh, but it would be weird to do so without eating a snack.

Uh yes. And also, I guess since we're doing meta questions without eating a snack sent by a fan. Shout out to Sakura, uh, who sent a note, said that she's in Japan right now, uh, and is seeing a bunch of snacks, uh, and sent a whole box. And I I I felt like that was my personal Christmas when it arrived on my desk. So Sakura dropped the whole pack on us. Uh and what do we do? We we we offloaded the choice. Yep.

Lurk

Actually what I would have picked, which is this uh dinosaur rack pack. This reminds me of buying uh topp's baseball cards in like nineteen eighty seven where you have like one of those dangling rack packs. So this dinosaur it looks like it's kind of a cracker. Sure.

But when we did a little more research, we realized it's essentially maybe flavorless though.

Or it's it's very Straight. Yes. So then we said we have another option and uh One more.

To the mix and

Balance it out.

Appears to be a peach gummy uh that is very much up my alley. So I wanna go savory into

I think that's correct.

Um and I wanna get to our first meta question. We got a handful of questions about this.

We appreciate the dedication of asking questions about us.

And the gist is, did you ruin Jack Harlow's career?

Did I? Did you?

You as a pair.

I don't know what bouncing back.

have been there had it not been for those terrible quotes in the New York Times interview.

He is not gonna be able to ever live this down. Here to explain himself is Jack Harlow.

No. Um

Uh

It's there's a hiccup, I would say, in the Jack Harlow rollout. that is attributable to five days of vicious memeing that followed what happened, the release uh of the conversation that happened in this room.

Arguably went into deeper into the

Black music. No, I don't think that Jack Harlow's career is over. I think that um there are probably an entire set of people who did not encounter this at all. Um and I think uh For folks who think that he crossed the line language-wise and and used um oh, these are

Kind of beautiful.

Yeah, they're much damn.

Little creatures.

Oh it's like a sunburst?

Would love these, Jack Harla would love these. Damn.

Man, I'm like weirdly moved by this.

Yeah, they're beautiful. They are beautiful are actually beautiful.

Dude.

I'm gonna bring one. Can I bring a pack to my daughter?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Um I'm genuinely uh this

I'm gonna crunch the hell out of these on the way home from daycare today.

Huh?

Okay.

They're like goldfish for people who drink champagne.

I was gonna say that they are hyper baked potato chips with added texture.

I know and kind of a strong but subtle flavor aftertaste. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like

It's not

Truffle, but it might as well be truffle.

Yeah.

They're fancy as hell for

I really was. I really wasn't prepared. I know. Look at this. Look at my guy. Look at my guy. I can't believe that this snack is so emotionally present that it derailed me from talking about Jack Harlow.

Yep. And I can't believe this fragile snack survived international travel.

I'm moved. Yeah. I'm genuine. I'm like not even...

Another little jewel.

Not even B S unreal.

Yeah, it's a it's like a it's it's a feat of human innovation.

We can achieve anything. But speaking of um Jack Harlow. Yeah. Um, I think he's gonna be fine. Whether he should or should not be fine is maybe a different question that we can address in another context. But I don't think that Jack Harlow's career is over. No. Do you?

I don't. I think maybe the intimacy and the comfort of the conversation that we were having with him. Which I think was great for the interview overall might have led him and us to be a little bit glib in certain moments. I know what he was getting at. I know what we were getting at. And he'll have to have the conversations with his fans and with his friends and collaborators that you know, that that that that whatever that backlash requires. Um, but I agree

Here's my last thing about this particular furor happening on this album. He came on this show and said something that I actually thought was differently provocative, which is I wanna make a mus uh I wanna make music that can be consumed passively. I wanted to play in a coffee shop. Um, Sade is passive music. I happen to think Sade is not passive music at all. Um, and I was struck by that as a framework for a guy, especially who's had three or four huge mainstream.

I'm studying that.

uh and choosing to uh deeply but narrowly explore a specific pocket. style that is not going to attract a lot of attention. There were a couple songs on here that you said maybe could end up as pop hits, and maybe in two or three months they will. Like it's tough to say. But the overall palette of this album seems designed for retreat. So it's a little bit rich to have your most memed moment come when you're trying to sort of avoid the spotlight the most assiduously.

Maybe something to rap about. Okay, so as we break into this gummy snack.

Which we chose again as a counterpoint to the savory.

Although we weren't expecting What we got out of that savory.

I feel blissed out right now.

But we got a lot of questions about this episode as well. And this was our Bad Bunny Super Bowl halftime live rapid response. Uh and

You try going live on YouTube eight minutes after the show. That?

For sure. Uh but this question was how did you engage with some of the fan critiques of your instant reaction after Bad Bunny's halftime performance?

Uh I think that it you like the Lady Gaga's part. Like that's I support that for you. I d I don't It still didn't make total sense to me and we're probably just gonna get a whole bunch more emails now. Um, I will say, Die with a smile, I was in the supermarket not that long ago, and they were playing Light FM. And by light FM I mean like eighties light FM. I mean like endless love ass light FM. And then they slipped in and died with a smile. And I almost wasn't mad.

Here's what I'll say about the Bad Bunny halftime show and people's responses to it, which I took people's passion. about loving it very seriously. And I'm really sincerely, earnestly glad that it was so moving and exciting to people because that's how I want it to feel. I know. We're gonna talk about the snack, but l I wanna finish this thought.

We're moving to Japan. Oh yeah. It was unreal.

Backlash in Japan.

This should be illegal.

But I think this idea that

If we didn't

didn't enjoy it as much as we should have or could have, that that means we didn't get it. Like that to me is a tough. critical stance. Which is just like to say

That was an interesting night because the halftime show happens, we like immediately jump in the chairs, we tape for a half hour. I then had to go and write an overnight review. Damn bangin'. Uh I watched I watched the whole show two more times.

Right.

My point. Yeah. Before I really got into the writing. And obviously you're gonna see things there's a lot happening on screen any given time. You're gonna catch things a second and third time that maybe you don't see the first time. Um You're in a more relaxed mode. You have your feelers a little bit more broad, maybe. But um, you know, I think that

Criticism, as they say, is an act of love.

Some have said.

Uh as we go out.

First of all, before we go out.

New ten out of ten snacks? These are like An unbelievable pairing?

Is it weird to say that I feel seen? Yeah. I feel known by

The food scientists or

By the by uh by our our friend who sent it to us, by the food scientists, by dare I say, an entire nation?

Amazing snacks. I textures are

We haven't even described. So this is a peach flavored bow tie shaped gummy that is encrusted in. Big sugar.

Sour sugar. Crunchy.

Um, it's not overly chewy. It's a smooth chew? Yes. But it is a chew. Uh it doesn't like get stuck in your teeth.

It's really good.

It's thoughtful.

Yeah.

It's gourmet. It's literally beautiful. Like you can get this on any street corner in Japan. What's happening to our country?

John, what's happening to our show? That's the last question. We're gonna go out. Um

If we can make one episode of this show that's as beautiful as this snack, we will have I I don't need a pulser. I just need the whatever this is of video podcast.

Um Caleb from Brooklyn, we know you, we see you, we appreciate you. Thank you for the work you put in the digital trenches. He wants to know, catch us up on the new format. Will there be non-celebrity guests returning? Is there a schedule for release dates? He says, Y'all used to turn me on to new artists. I miss that. Um

Watch Song of the Week.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

That too. Um popcast. Has been experimenting. We've been changing.

I want to take these. I don't no one else.

You're not sharing those, you're taking them home. Uh we will continue to change and experiment in twenty twenty six. Yes. There will be John and Joe episodes. There will be John and guest episodes. There will be John and famous guest episodes. Yes. Uh There will there will be us and famous guest episodes. We will have some experts in the mix. Popcast is a living, breathing, changing thing. It always has been and it always will be. Anything you'd like to add?

Yeah, I think that what you are seeing now is not the end of a thing. Or hearing. Tattoo. Um, it's not the end of a thing. Uh, I feel like this question is framing it, maybe potentially as the end of a thing. It's actually the beginning of something quite interesting and exciting. Strap in. That's our show. I'm sorry, no one else getting snuck. Uh what I will say is if we answered your question, also you should email and Stickers forever.

But also subscribe youtube.com slash popcasts, like and subscribe, follow us on Instagram, TikTok, uh, YouTube again, just do it twice on YouTube, but don't unsubscribe, but just subs make sure you s really subscribed. Uh

Uh credits and link and bio. We will be back next.

Every episode of Popcast is at nytimes dot com slash popcast.

Yes.

Oh now you're sharing.

Okay, well no peach gummy for you, eh?