Episode 111: Nurturing neurodiversity reflection (part 1)

This podcast is brought to you by guiding growing minds a social enterprise that aims to give all children the best opportunity to reach their potential and succeed in living rich and meaningful lives That is episode 111, Billy. Not our first, not our last, but lots of ones in there regardless. It was our reflection episode on neurodiversity. What are people going to learn this week?

Yeah, so try, we talk a lot about the different situations that a lot of professionals and parents supporting these kids find themselves in and ways that we can think about it and practically help them. But yeah, hopefully a really helpful dive. There'll be another one on nurturing. diversity so please keep sending them in and also I haven't shown you the photoshop for this one but like everything in this podcast it is therapeutic so a bit of a clue and just changing slightly

how we can meet the needs of all the kids that are out there. Fantastic, Billy. This was such a big one for people that we're going to make it into a third episode as well. So this is the middle of the three. So yeah, huge topic. I think everyone's going to get a lot out of it. I did particularly, but enjoy the episode, guys. Hi, I'm Billy, a developmental paediatrician, and I'm Nick, a developing parent.

We're going to use themes from iconic movies to talk about how we best support our kids. This is Pop Culture Parenting. I don't want to see you again the first of my whole life. I don't want to see anybody outside. Who is your daddy? What does he do? Use your best judgment. I trust you.

Good morning, Dr. Billy Garvey. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you, Dr. Nick? Good. I was just taking a look and drawing in the environment around me. It's a beautiful crisp morning here. Thank God we got the old heater I bought. Yeah, three years ago. Our first winter. It works harder than you and me. That first winter. Probably thought there's going to be one of them. I thought, yeah, I thought, we'll get sick of this. Here we are. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it's frosty here in Melbourne for everyone overseas. It's like winter is coming. Yeah. Yeah, anyway. I'm here in my baby blue. It's not baby blue, my dark blues. I don't think it's doing any favours for my colour. That looks great, mate. Tones? Is that a hair tone? Isn't it an ocean? Well, true. Yeah, it's an ocean tone. You've got the... No, no, we can't both wear this. For those who watch the podcast, yeah, we swap it in, take it in turns, it's on green. There's only one good colour.

One really favourite colour for us and it's like... Olive green. That's real autumnal palette. I'll just start coming out wearing it to the live shows. Speaking of live shows, that is still in the works. Nice. I haven't run this past year. Whenever I have an idea, it first goes past Annalise and then if it passes the Annalise...

it gets to you. This one didn't get past the Annalise Gate. Oh, really? Because I sing to the kids to fall asleep. Nope. And I do Part of This World for a little moment. And I was like, what do you think about the live show? I come out as Little Mermaid and Nick comes out as Flounder. And Annalisa's like, well, you can't just rope the audience into your musical theatre expressions. And say, this won't even make this edit, Billy. We're going to chop this. Just tell us.

When we're done, I'm time stamping. It's such a beautiful song. And I think I do it pretty well. I don't know it. Oh, my God. Not a mermaid man. Yeah, okay. Fire? Why does it burn? Anyway. Got any other updates? Patreon's been amazing. We did, I said to you, we did a really cool one with Tom Brunzel. You can go back and watch everything we've done. There's also really cool resources that are coming out on there. So that's been really good. America Trip.

We need the audience, especially obviously those in America. I will be, looks like LA, San Francisco, New York in early September. So if anyone can help us with some media. That would be amazing because it's all about growth and connections because we know that this seems to help people outside of Australia.

And, yeah, so it would be really cool if you think we could come and do a talk that would be helpful for your organisation or you think there's a connection possibility. It would be amazing. So it would be great if you could speak to a newspaper. It would be great if you get on a morning talk show. It would be great if you...

You could do radio. Yeah. Yeah. All those sorts of things. That's exactly what we're trying to do. Well, it's really helped with us here. Totally. Yeah. Shout out to all those people who've had me on stuff. Still trying to get... Dr. Nick. I'm worried they'll realise how talented you are and then they'll stop asking for me. I would not go well in live TV or radio. I think you're amazing. You do this live. No.

And then the final one, which I've had a bit of a rollercoaster of emotions at this one. Here we go. But I'll do it in a very leveled, calm way. Bit of feedback, most of it really helpful and gentle and kind. Some of it really aggressively saying that my authority and training means absolutely nothing because I said neurodiversity instead of neurodivergence.

So a bit tough to read a couple of times. So I intentionally did it because what we try and do with this podcast is capture everyone. That's why the Finding Nemo is not kids with ADHD. It's kids who can't focus. And neurodiversity is everyone, including the groups of neurotypical kids who don't have a different way in the way that their brain functions. It's really interesting.

The reason I've done that is because I think this is important to everyone. And while I understand that it's really helpful to understand and identify as being neurodivergent, I also think it's really important that we are...

thinking about all these kids in the community that might be there. We've also seen a huge increase in rates of diagnosis, even in my time. So you'll be able to do the maths on this. But when I started learning about this, I'd been working with neurodivergent kids for a while. But when I started in 2001... at university learning about this stuff, the rates of autism, for example, in the community were four in 1,000. Wow, what? Now it's one in 40. Wow. So that's in my simple...

Did you say it was four in 1,000? Yeah. That was one in 250, and now it's one in 40. Yeah. Yeah, it's like 6.25 volts. Bang. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, this is increasing. And we're also like some people who are critical of it were like, no, you should be saying you're a divergence because you're just talking about kids with autism, ADHD, dyslexia, you know, whatever. And I'm like, those are all...

like pathological labels that some people also don't agree with, which I understand as well. So the language, all I'd ask is that there's going to be a number of questions that get read out where people say neurodiversity. And I just hope that no one is aggressively hostile towards them for using that language when actually technically what they're saying is neurodivergence. So it's just a really important point that I think almost everyone was really kind about it.

And a lot of the big organizations in this space and a lot of the amazing writers like Devon Price talk about neurodiversity. Okay, I'm going to do my best in this episode. I might stuff that up though. Well, I might stuff it up too. We do one take. I wonder how much time we've actually done considering 100 and...

And have 11 episodes. Yeah, 111 episodes. So we probably will stuff it up. So apologies if that really upsets you. But I just want to finally say before we hit into the polls, phenomenal feedback that came back, phenomenal questions. Like we read all of it.

Less than 1% of it's going to go up, hundreds of longs, hundreds of shorts. A lot of the ones that won't get read were the best ones, but they were just so long that I couldn't read them, but they couldn't be shortened. So they're really exceptional and we kind of see...

all of those people. Also, a lot of longs came through as DMs and it's just too hard for us to capture them because it takes a long time to even just capture them. So you're better off sending us your longs. Anything that doesn't fit into the Instagram question. PopCultureParenting at gmail.com. Yep, that's right.

It's too much to catalogue the other way. And this is going to be another, as you called it, another reflection episode. So there's... Triple. Yeah, there's a triple. It's a triple. There we go. Hey, polls.

I'm going to keep you on task. Yeah, promise this won't be. Hey, Billy. We asked three Instagram poll questions this week and we have responses from the audience. We asked people, are you or your child neurodivergent?

60% of people said yes. Yeah, which is amazing, isn't it? When you think about what we talked about, it's in Australia currently, it looks like it's about one in 40, is really cool. And as we've said before, One of the proudest things about PCP and GGM and this community is that it seems to be a safe space for everyone because it's what we're working really hard to do and I'm sure once again we're not doing it perfectly but that's the issue.

sense of pride for me personally because one of the best things about my work at the hospital is that i meet all these kids and so to think that i can help them be on the clinic is um is something i think that is really important to you and i it also um we'll talk about it maybe during the pod but it brought up this really interesting thing for me thinking about this when i was answering that poll

And maybe that'll come up a little bit. We might talk about that a little bit more, about what my answer would be to that question. And I think it's really interesting to think about where all of us kind of sit in this as an element of where the world is difficult for us.

in the way that our brain best functions. Okay. I'm sure that might surface. We asked people, was it hard as a kid because you were misunderstood? 73% of people said yes. What did you say to that? I didn't think I was misunderstood. I felt like I was not, yeah, I just, I don't know, I just reflect. Do you feel understood now?

I can't even really answer. I don't really know. Like I can't tell. I think I'm a good communicator. So that's what I come back to with this question, right? Like my behaviors and how I communicate. Yeah, but I guess do you feel like others understand you? Yeah. Yeah. I communicate really passionately. And the genuine who you are. Can you be yourself in the relationships and environments? Well, no, not always. But I don't think that that would mean I'm not. It means I just.

maybe mask what I am sometimes. Yeah, do you have to compensate for that in a way that is detrimental to you? Um... On balance, I don't know, maybe not. I don't know. I do. You do? Yeah. I said yes to that, but I also say yes to it now. Yeah. Yeah. I have to rein in parts of myself. Yeah.

But in a way that impacts me as well. Like I think maybe what you're saying is, yeah, you do a little bit. But isn't that what being part of a society is? Great, great question. Because like you can't just do and act how I want to act. Yeah, but I think you're talking about things that...

which is surprising because you're not like this at all, you might be talking about things like, I don't want to stop at red lights, I don't want to like, I want to park in handicapped spaces, you know what I mean? You're talking about like things that would make your life easier but might be detrimental to others. I'm talking about...

Oh, yes. Yeah. God, all the words to that for some reason. God, that was contagious back in the 90s. But, yeah, so what I'm talking about is things that don't... that i don't show or you know open up about myself not because they'll be harmful to other people but because of like things like being a bit awkward yeah but would it be appropriate that's my

question to you well yes that's a great question that's what determines what's appropriate well society does yeah do you think it does it well i think on Yeah, to be honest, yeah, I think on mass, I think it does. Yeah. We're a pretty well-functioning society. Well, I don't know. Well, mate, it could be worse. It could be better. It depends what your metric is. Exactly. So this is why I can't, that's why I'm like, I think I'm understood.

And I also want to say, because sometimes the PCP justifiably gets very protective. No, he's not having a go. I think sometimes you're like, you could probably ask, you're probably being nice. And you could probably ask me a little bit more, frankly. I think outside of this room, you do way more for the community than I do.

you are more protective in the relationships and how supportive you are of everyone. So that is really important. But I think that we know there's so many people out there that are suffering and it looks like there's an increased amount. There's more kids now than there were three years ago starting school with development.

mental concerns gotcha worse like gotcha there's an increasing amount of kids presenting emergency departments an increasing amount of kids with gotcha mental illness there's an increasing amount of adults with mental illness so yes that's my metric i'm not saying it's the perfect metric but um

you know, there's a certain amount of people that are making much more money. They'd probably say that things are working out fine. Yeah, I don't know. I think on, yeah, I mean, maybe we're lucky we live here and it's... Huge privilege. Huge privilege. You know what I mean? That's where I sort of come out from. pretty good yeah yeah there's just a lot of people that society doesn't work for we'll get back to masking okay sorry i've lost us early hey billy

Are we good as a society at nurturing neurodiversity? 91% said no. I said no to this one. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. But I don't think they're the same. Are you trying to run those last two together? I think they're different. Yeah, yeah. So I know what you're saying and I think I 100% agree with you on that. Yeah. And even some people that said yes DMed, like probably about 20 people DMed and were like, actually, I meant no, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

you know, thousands of people answer those polls. So I don't know that 20 people would have made a difference. But yeah, I... I don't think we are. No. No, and that's the problem, not to be a broken record, that we lose out as a society when we say this is the way that you have to be and that is harmful to lots of people.

You know, we'll talk about this more, but certain ways of, no, you should just be able to tolerate that environment or no, this is how you should actually communicate with each other. We'll talk about screening tests as well and the harm that they can do.

And also the benefit they can do. There was also some feedback around kind of autism assessments and stuff like that, which I use, have been on those teams and all that stuff. I'm just talking about it in a simplistic way when it's really quite complex. But, yeah, I think we can do much better and, yeah, I really care about that. And I think, like, in my layman, you know, thought on this is that... Like we're not good at it because it is so complex and diverse.

Well, the problem is it's so, yeah, I don't even know if it's a complexity thing. I think it's because we are so stuck in our old ways. Yeah, rigid with what we have, but then you might make accommodations. for someone but that accommodation doesn't apply to everyone with a diagnosis and they need something very different and that's why I think we're not good at it. I wouldn't say we're there even though we're trying. But like if I was a...

teacher because i'm in school mode right like i would find it hard to cater to everyone but i don't really know definitely and there was some feedback as well which was beautiful actually it was really beautifully delivered of like

you know, me saying that teachers aren't teaching in a way that's not helpful and not trained in this. And they were kind of saying, well, no, they are. But as boring as it would be, people are free to go and read my PhD. There's three published papers in big journals about this.

The number one reason teachers leave the profession early is because they're not trained in this. We know they're not trained in it. We know they're not trained in it pre-vocationally before they get in. They don't have enough support around them.

The evidence is there. Some people are quite aggressively like, well, come into my classroom and try and manage them all. I don't have that skill set in terms of doing that, but I do have a skill set in professional development. That's what the PhD was. And I've been in lots of classrooms. My PhD over six months, I did 45 sessions. Six schools. And so when you say professional development, you say you're helping teachers support kids with...

So mine was building the capacity of educators to identify and support kids with emotional and behavioral difficulties. Yeah. Which is how a lot of these kids present. And emotional and behavioral difficulties would sit well. Like neurative... Virgins would sit well underneath it along with traumatised kids, anxious kids. Yeah, a lot of anxiety, trauma. Bang, look at this. Yeah. It's amazing.

I've got to talk very slowly but that's sort of what would sit underneath you or what you'd be able to teach people or teach teachers to get better at supporting kids with. Yeah. She's a lot more to the teaching game than you... When you're from the outside. Most important professionals in our community. You know this now.

Completely should be paid more, completely should be supported more. Teachers and GPs? They're the most important clinicians, GPs. They're the most important doctors. GPs and maternal child health nurses, I reckon, are the most important clinicians. But in our entire community...

Educators. Educators will influence, like I often say this, the teacher will spend more time in a day with the kid who's struggling the most than I will in a year. Do you know what I mean? Like, what am I doing? That person's...

you know the relationship they can build the way they can support them in the real world be sensitive and responsive to their needs and consistent predictable and unconditional is a thing that i can never do most of us can't do you can do it with your kids you do it a little bit you do it heaps of my kids but that's your sphere

influence, whereas these educators have 30 kids a year that will change their lives. 500 at lunchtime. And they'll be saving. They save kids. They change the trajectory of kids' lives. More than they'd know? Way, way more than they'd realize. And that's, you know, yeah, I've had that experience. I'm sure you look back and think about some teachers that were great. And it was the relationship, wasn't it? It wasn't how, you know.

how much they taught you maths, although they're probably just one educator that taught you to be amazing at maths. Berkey. Mr. Davis, shout out for listening. Don't think you'd be listening to me. Yeah, I had a cool teacher. Yeah, I did have a number of cool teachers, particularly him. Yeah, very good. He said I was going to, this is how old I am.

He wrote on my shirt at the end of like year six. He used to write on the shirts, you know, leave promise. Oh, yeah. Like, watch out. Next Richard Stubbs is coming through or something like that. Yeah. Richard Stubbs. No, I'm not showing yourself. I thought you were going to say, you know, if colour TV comes out, you'll be on it. Literally, the internet was a decade away.

Hey, Billy, that's been good. Should we roll into reflections? Yeah, yeah. And I believe you're up first this week. Okay, fumbling early on. Should not surprise him. Okay, let's do reflections. Okay. Hi guys. Firstly, I love your podcast. It's been so educational and has truly helped me become a better parent. This is my first time writing in. I felt compelled to share our story after the last episode.

I'm a parent to a beautiful, happy, joyful three-year-old boy diagnosed with level 3 autism, global developmental delay, and possibly ADHD, awaiting diagnosis. He's non-speaking and has high support needs. We've been on this journey for about 18 months, diving into early intervention, speech, OT, play therapy, ECPD, Early Childhood Development Program, in Queensland, and recently secured a spot for him in mainstream kindy two days a week.

Despite all this, it's hard not to worry about the future. Will he ever speak? Will we ever hear his voice? Will he ever say, I love you, live independently, drive, have relationships? Or will we be his lifelong carers? And then what? Will that responsibility fall on his siblings? Our experience with autism doesn't match the high-functioning quirky genius stereotype.

Our son has intense oral sensory needs, eating unsafe objects. Steams constantly, yelling, running back and forth, scattering food on the floor and pushing it into our carpets, wiping it on the walls. He also struggles with sleep. His interactions with his siblings are minimal and family outings are nearly impossible due to eloping and sensory overwhelm. This is just a glimpse of daily life. Schooling is another challenge.

In Queensland, he can't attend a special school without a diagnosed intellectual impairment, yet mainstream schools likely won't accommodate him either, despite buzzwords like inclusive and supportive. One school we visited even said, we've got a lot of autistic kids. you wouldn't even know anything's wrong with them. One of the hardest parts for me is grief, for the child we thought we had and the uncertainty ahead. He developed typically until 12 months, then regressed.

Watching old videos of him as a toddler is heartbreaking. It fills me with immense sadness. Some days I feel more like a carer than a mum. Despite my own feelings, I show up for him every day and fiercely advocate for his right. to be him in a world that isn't set up for him. I just wanted to share our version of autism. It's different from what I heard in the last episode. It's true what they say, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism.

Thank you for what you're doing and for continuing to shine a light on your diversity. God. What a reflection.

Alright, number two. Heineken Billy, this episode could not have come at a better time for our family. I'm a physio and over the years I have watched our beautiful son, now just turned four, and wondered about his development. As a toddler, he loved repetitive play, had some gorgeous quirks and had separation anxiety, particularly evident at daycare. He was always very slow to warm and did not like strangers.

He often wouldn't speak to our friends and would only speak to kids he was familiar with. He is now in year four at kindy and has been diagnosed with selective mutism. After intervention from a psychologist, He has shown amazing progress and has now started talking to friends. His teacher has noticed some sensory seeking behaviours including chewing, mouthing toys and occasional toe walking.

We have also noticed this at home and they are more obvious when stressed or anxious. Your podcast has been a haven for me when it all feels like it is too much. I've spent so many years watching and analysing his behaviour and wondering. Does he have autism? Does he have ADHD? Is it just anxiety? Is this developmentally appropriate? Then I realized that if I keep doing this, I am missing it. I am missing enjoying the beautiful child in front of me.

He is curious, kind, clever, and experiences so much. Your podcasts have helped me to realize what he needs most, which is love, connection, playfulness, and warmth. I don't know if he's neurodivergent. I think he probably is. But I also know that overall he is succeeding and that is what is important. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for the neuroaffirming positive scientific approach which has 100% made us better parents. Beautiful.

So, yeah, there were lots of amazing ones, but... Should we do the shorts? Let's rib into them. See if I can not make them long. Hey.

It didn't start with that. That's just me to sharpen you up every time I'm like, oi. Do you think we are over-medicating neurodiverse kids and losing their creativity and strengths? So it's really interesting back, I might have said this before on the podcast, but back when I started in this space working in childcare, I did see a lot of kids that were really difficult to manage in those spaces and then they get medicated and they just...

wouldn't be themselves anymore and it was heartbreaking and that still stays with me when I'm choosing to write a script and try you know start a medication and I don't choose the parents choose my role in clinic is to give all the options and then I give autonomy and you know

that power over to the parents and other kids best and also the educators and the other professionals. I, yeah, I've had a bunch of really like, it's quite, the pod has been a bit tough this last fortnight for me. But it's really funny. It's almost like clinic. This is obviously ridiculous, but it's almost like clinic sensed it and I've just had probably the most beautiful week in clinic that I've had. And one of the less big emotional moments was this amazing mum who's...

Really common story in clinic who's gone through the diagnostic process for their kid but also realised now they have ADHD and they're on medication and they're like, you know what?

I've been using alcohol to medicate myself almost my entire life. And they're like, with the medication, I've realized I don't need it anymore, which is phenomenal. It's what the evidence shows as well, that if you appropriately diagnose and appropriately medicate... kids specifically with ADHD, you actually reduce their chances of substance use in adult life.

because you're actually helping them function better without that cognitive strain. I spend a lot of time taking kids off medication, but I think when it's done... when it's done properly. And we train fellows. We do not medicate ADHD. We medicate specific things that they're struggling with when non-medication options have been tried for a significant amount of time appropriately in an evidence-based way and the child is...

still struggling. I don't medicate for parents. I don't medicate for teachers. I medicate for the kid. And the kid has a say in that from as early as they can. And it's the same. We know we don't medicate for autism. We medicate kids who have anxiety that has moderate or severe clinical severity that is impacting more than one part of their life detrimentally and therapy has been trialed without resolution of those symptoms.

There is a great complexity to how we medicate kids and what we think about, but we do it for the symptoms that impact the child, not the behaviors that we observe them having. Does that make sense? It's what's the internal experience of the kid. So many...

screening tools, diagnostic approaches, everything, watches what the kid's doing and ignores what the kid's feeling. It's a really important point about this, that even certain tools, without naming them... that are seen as the gold standard observe kids they were built in research they are a gold standard of a research tool not the best practice in diagnosis and often

There's a lot of rigidity. If you think about like a language assessment, it's saying this kid doesn't communicate in the way that they should. It doesn't capture the different way they communicate. And it then gives them a score that says you're really crap. at how many words you can say or how much you look someone in the eyes and completely ignores the internal experience of that kid and also the strengths they have in communication.

So we are evolving with this, but we have a long way to go to actually try and understand the experience that these kids are having. And that's when we think about medication. But we always protect creativity and who the kids are.

Anyway, sorry. That's the first one. It's fine. Hey, Billy, how do you protect neurodivergent kids from family who are old school and saying it's just our poor parenting? This is really common. I've done training in communities. Just be tougher. Yeah, just be tougher or it's all your fault. It's because of how you've parented them, which is awful.

um and yeah we've done training like interesting i was thinking about when this short came through i was like i was thinking about two specific professionals one of them a gp who was you know a really important profession and one of them was another clinician in the community the gp was like literally told this long-winded story to me about how kids with ADHD just need physical discipline. He didn't say it so kindly and gently. But he's like, the parents are just too soft.

The other professional was like, autism doesn't exist, people just need to be better parents. And this person had worked for decades, both of them worked for decades in this space and I was like a bit heartbroken about how many families they'd seen. But they gave me two very specific targets. And I left that community with that GP realising that actually...

Kids with ADHD are gorgeous but quite difficult to parent and they make you look like a parent that doesn't have control because of how disorganised they are and how much energy they have and how all over the place and distractible and all that stuff. They're like little beautiful hurricanes. And the other person started making referrals for little kids they were seeing query autism. So it was as in they believed in autism.

and could see it. And then we're providing a different lens of the kids and talking about it in a different way to the parents. So, yeah, that's a very outdated approach that unfortunately still exists. One of the comments came through that was really derogatory overnight. I had an awful...

day the next day realizing that i missed it and it's really beautiful because i actually sent a dm to the mom apologizing because of how hostile someone had been about like you just need to be a better parent my kids shouldn't miss out because of

because yours needs to be accommodated. And it's funny, I sent a DM like really worried about this mum and she just sent this beautiful message back that she was like, for every one of those, there's 100 people that celebrate my kid. And I was just like...

Isn't that amazing? How good. Yeah, that was like therapeutic for me. I was trying to help her and she helped me. So, yeah, so anyway. Amazing. Hey, Billy, my son is seven. He said he hates being autistic because it never fits in. I struggle with what to say. You got anything with that? What would you do if one of the girls said they hated something about themselves?

I'm just trying to think specifically what they've said. I'd have the wind knocked out of my sails, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. I would. So what I would say is... I try not to dismiss it. It's beautiful. Which is pretty much what I've been doing for about five years. But I'm curbing. I'm curbing. I'm curbing. I'm curbing. I've seen you. Curbing. That's what I mean. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm curbing that. That's ridiculous. You're fantastic.

Yeah. Because that doesn't really help. Well, you're just telling them they're wrong. So would I explore it with them? Yeah, I would say I'm so sorry you feel like that. That must be awful. Yeah. That's what I'd do. That's what I'd do. Yeah. And then what do you do? Like which is hard to put you on the spot like this. Then I'd be like, yeah, like that must be awful. How does it make you feel or when do you think it?

It gives you the most grief. Explore with them. Open questions. Safe space, not judgmental. I'm here to help. You shut down, I back off. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Not good at that when you shut down and back off a bit. Yeah. Like I could just push harder. You're just trying to help. But also what's the environment I'm in like? Yeah. Is there the space and time now to talk about this? Can I get to a space and can I make the time?

You know, there will be times where we can't. A lot of people talk about my 10 comes to me right at the end of the day and let's talk about this stuff. Or it's right before school or whatever. But try and make the space to have those conversations and let them lead. You know, and then what the actual answer is...

is look at the environments and relationships that they're in and think about where are ones that celebrate who they genuinely are and resource it and pull resources out of other things if you need to. And that's what a lot of people who succeed in the homeschooling community would say. You know, that's been the experience and a lot of schools are working really hard to keep those kids with them.

and need to work, you know, continue to work hard and we need to, especially individuals like me and organisations like Guiding Our Own Minds need to come around schools so that they have the capacity to do that but that's the actual answer for that kid.

Yeah, okay. Yep, okay. A lot to learn there. I can do that better. Hey, Billy, how do you encourage kids who are anxious and ADHD and have ADHD with removing the mask? Not just at home. It's not fair to put you on the spot for that one. Or even any neurodivergent child, how do you get them to remove the mask? So what is the mask? The mask helps them function around everyone else? Is that it? Yeah, totally, yes. Like you mask so you can sort of fit in? Yeah, but at a huge cost.

Totally, I know you know that. But the mask is, in one way of thinking about it, the mask is a shield. And they have the shield because they don't feel safe. So it's not about them taking the mask off, it's about the environment being safer. For them to truly be who they are, express the difficulties they're experiencing in the sensory components, the social components, the communication components, you know, the focus components. And so they can say that. And, you know, you think about...

We'll talk about schools more in the next episode because there's just so many questions about schools. But the amazing Tom Brunzel talks about this, about how do we have rhythms in the relationships that make sure kids feel safe. So instead of like, if you walked in here and I just went, hey, mate, how are you going? How's this weather? That's a very performative, superficial way of connecting with you. But you come in and I'm like, genuinely, how's your week been?

And I'm working very hard not to just tell you about how hard my legs are. Because you're such a safe relationship for me. But, you know, like, and how do we do that? The amazing guys at Bowie Street Educational Model talk about like every single school, every single kid in every single school needs to have one champion. You know, how do we think about who that champion is that helps them?

you know, feel safe, tape off masks, all that stuff. So it's not the responsibility of the kid to take off the mask, it's the responsibility of the environment to be safer. Does that make sense? Yep. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Do you get it? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So you and Annalise are completely safe environments for me to be exactly who I am.

Yeah, it goes back to what you were talking about. I know that I've got, you know, a sense of humor that not everyone finds funny, but I'm comfortable with you and Alice to tell those jokes. I'm comfortable to have the emotional sensitivity and reactions that I can because I know...

You won't. You won't withdraw from me. It's about a safe environment. That's what I'm trying to get. I'm just trying to get my head around, like, how do you do it? Well, you do it for me. But I can't control every other environment.

No, but you... Like how do you make school a safe environment? Like it can be tough. So say one of your kids is struggling and you found this thing that helps them. Yeah. You just like... Communicate that to the school? Yeah, the specific thing in a strengths-based approach of I want to help you help my kid.

Like you're really important to her. She really wants to be here and succeed. This is what we're working on. This is what we found helpful. Is there anything you guys are doing that's helpful? that can support them like it's very interesting we talk a lot about i was talking about this in clinic actually with the kid that i was saying where um this dad is like he's of my kin um

He kind of, you know, he's not a private school boy. And it was really interesting because he was talking about all the things that set his kid off. And he's like really, really struggling. They're at the point where they're like, we can't do this anymore with this neurodivergent little boy that they've got.

really struggles to be in school, like, you know, really struggling with transition. So classic like autism, like drop-offs and nightmare, like just traumatic for everyone involved, including the educators.

It was really funny. He was talking about all the things that trigger him, which is appropriate. We need to explore that when we talk about that and think about what are the specific triggers, even a lot of the occupational therapists approach to this is like what you do is you take a diary and say like what are the things that triggers what happened before it, what was going on.

environment with older kids that have the ability you will talk about like what was your experience in that moment what were the things you were finding hard was the room too noisy and it was giving you a headache was there actually the room too quiet and you felt under stimulated like you know there's a lot of variability in this stuff So this is, once again, this is not like one size fits all, especially if there's no research or clinical aspect to it.

in school programs and other things. But it was really beautiful because then like I really, this dad was awesome, it was one of the highlights of my week. Because I got to the point where I was like, you're, we're going to, because he's like, all these professionals, they've just taken money.

None of them have actually helped. I was like, oh, my God. I hope I don't get fallen into that category as well. Like, you know, I work in a public system. But anyway, the point of the whole story is that then we spoke about what things soothe him.

What are their sensory preferences? We often talk about their sensory vulnerabilities, the things that set them off, loud noises, all the stuff that makes it really hard. But what are their preferences? Okay. I'm writing notes here. Do you think about that with your kids? No. But you probably could though, couldn't you? I could. Do you think about it with you? Do you think about it with Henry? Yep. Do you think about it with me? Yep. What are the things that I need? Because you give it to me.

I don't know, like sensory preference. Well, even just the relational preferences. I need time with you. I need protected time. I'm so bad at articulating things. No, but do you know what I mean? I literally stumble through. Yeah. I can't. But this data was amazing because I've had a similar situation. Like with my kids, I wouldn't know what a safe thing is.

Well, I think you do. I think you're being very unfair. No, but like someone goes, give me the top three. I'd be like, oh, well, I'd say, oh, they like crafting. One of them really likes crafting. Beautiful. What is it about crafting?

Oh, they just love sitting there and just like creating something and I think they feel good but they love the process. Do you know what that is for a lot of neurodivergent kids? What? It's hyperfocus. Yeah, they love the hyperfocus. And then if people come around and say, hey, hey, hey.

Like you're too focused on this thing or like, you know, you've been doing that for hours. Like, you know, there's some beautiful stuff coming in about like just doing the same thing repetitively over and over again and how helpful it was and how soothing it was and like how we go, stop doing that.

that's a clinical sign of something wrong with you. And it's like, how cool is it that that kid has figured out that that soothes him, that repetitive motion, that repetitive sensory experience. You know, that's like... And a lot of kids who are masking are intentionally not doing those things that soothe them and help them feel better and function better because...

We're like, nah, don't do that. You know when, like, you see something and you're just like, why does my kid do this? And then you just sort of walk past it. And, you know, some things might not annoy you, but you're like, why did I do that? And then you're like, ugh. You do your run through here and I go, ugh, shit.

It's probably a soothing thing. I'm trying to get some control of the situation. I'm like, par out. I just walk past it. Yeah, mate. You're such a beautiful dad. You're a phenomenal dad. You're the dad that I'm trying to be.

you know so yeah that must be really hard to feel like that but i yeah i need to do more work in celebrating how good a dad you are clearly but the um yeah it's just it's really interesting researchers come out interviewing adults who are autistic about where they experience joy and it's often in those hyper-focused things yeah it's often in like sorting stuff out organizing things yeah do you know what i mean and we go no no no you've got to be more fluid you've got to be like

more open to change like do you know what i mean yeah and it's like agile this is actually a really cool thing about these people is that they you know the hyper focus the sensory components getting really into something you know getting really immersed in it helps them with flow states, helps them with like stress, helps them experience joy. And yeah, it was really funny because I was reading like commentary and feedback and thinking about this and there were some people that were like...

oh, it turns out that all this research just shows autistic people are actually people. And I was like, you know, this autistic person was justifiably like, you know, isn't it ridiculous that all this money goes in to just letting us be who we are?

to figuring that out. Yeah, and that's why I say neurodiversity because I think we all need that. Yes. Hey, Billy, how do I stop the aggression from my four-year-old daughter with ASD? Yeah, figure out why. There's always a reason. So we don't look at behaviours of concern. We shouldn't even really be talking about them like that. We think about what's the experience this kid is having and there'll be a need that's not being met.

Not because parents don't love them, educators don't try. It's just because we haven't connected to what that need is. And I see those kids all the time. What's an example? Can you show me an example? Yeah, a little gorgeous kid that I've seen in clinic who's doing much better now that just had sensory overload.

Like a lot of these little ones come out as bubs into the world and they will, you know, we can, yeah, we'll talk about it because it's going to come up in a long, but we can tell quite early on and it's because their sensory experience is so overwhelming.

okay you know and so there will be usually a sensory experience or communication challenge like a difficulty in us understanding their needs because of the communication difference that we see in neurodivergent kids and what we expect such as eye contact eye contact is a classic one where we're like

you know no no if you want me to understand what you want you need to look me in the eyes and you should be able to pick up my facial expressions but actually we should be able to pick up their body language and

you know, their signs that they're overwhelmed or that they're not enjoying something and all that kind of stuff. So those are all, that's where all the needs sit. So I spend most of my time in clinic, like after I'm celebrating kids and strength space and all that stuff, I'm trying to think what is the experience of this little kid in front of me.

Awesome. Thank you. Great response. Hey, advice for the big emotional comedowns that happens with ND kids? Yeah, so I think my answer is the same for all kids. What do you think? If your kid or me has a big emotional experience. Yeah, chat to them and say, this looks like it's really tough for you and then explore it with them after that.

Yeah, so I think you just like, maybe a silly analogy, but you just want to create safe landing pads for them. Do you know what I mean? When they come down, they're safe, they're supported, they're comforted, they're validated, they're protected, they're soothed, all that stuff. But I stuff this up heaps, like simple stuff, like, you know, if you're splashing water in the bath and out of the bath and stuff, having like an awesome time and then they...

do these like hot laps even in the middle of winter, like really nerdy, like hot laps around the house and we all shout about it and all this stuff. And we'd ask her not to splash and she runs back in and falls over and hurts herself and we're like, we told you not to splash. Did that last night. But do you know what I mean? She's like crying and it's awful. Why do we do it? And I sat with that for two days. Oh, did you? Just like. I don't see what I'm like, I told you.

I was like, don't do it. And then they do it. And I'm like, I told you not to sing that rhyme. Exampling of me stuffing it up. But they're just so overwhelmed by the pain.

you know, whatever experience that they've just had, that they're not sitting there going, oh, yeah, cool, you're right, actually. There's a lesson in there. It's more debating. One of them will get onto like a little song or a ditty they're singing and they'll pull the other kid in and they'll say their name in the middle of the song and I'm like...

I don't think she likes that. And then one will react like she's not liking it. I'm like, I wouldn't do it again. And they do it again. And then the other one goes and I'm like, you had a lot of warning. It's so bad. So do you want a hot tip? What? What do you want them doing instead? Oh, yeah. So instead of just putting your sister's name in that song, why don't you do this? How does it sound if it's my name? Yeah.

All right. You're good. No, but do you know what I mean? No, you're good. I'm doing it wrong, but I'm just like. It's really good. I'd throw the water on this part of the, on the wall that the bar's next to. Let's, you know, he's a sensory component need in the kids playing with the water and having fun. But instead of saying, stop throwing it out of the bath.

It's like throw the water over here, make it even more fun than throwing it out of the bath. Give them the connection and the reaction around what you want them doing and engage with them in it. It's a really good example. So be part of the song, mate. I know you've completely shot down and didn't laugh at all at my... Little Mermaid plan, but...

Maybe we'll do a poll whether Little Mermaid's going to be coming out of my show. As I said, it's not making it into the episode. So if she sings with this like blue fish. I'm going to have to edit this part too. I can just see you coming out in this big twist. Chopping. Chopping. It'll be a 14-minute episode. Everyone will be like, oh, my God. He must have really talked some shit. Hey, Billy.

Two more shorts. Any tips on managing overwhelm, overstimulation as an ND parent? Yeah. So I think it's all about like the same kindness we're trying to give to our kids. Like what are our needs? Drop the demands around us. We've talked about that a lot. But in the same way, I think it's really important. We had so many beautiful reflections like this.

of finding what are the specific things that meet your sensory needs, your relational needs. Like a lot of people talked about, and I relate to this, this performative social expectation and then how you're just exhausted and need to go into a hole. you know and i do that i love being around people but god it drains me like you know so thinking about you know like i but i it's quite funny i was thinking about this with clinic this week because things have been a bit tough

with the broader advocacy work. And I was like, I don't get it. Someone just sent in a message where they were like, It must be so wearing, like it must take so much out of you, what you're doing clinic, but it actually fuels me. So that's a really protective thing for me. And that's the hard balance is that I'm trying to jam like 10 days into seven at the moment.

But I love clinic because it actually does help me. And so what are the other things? Exercise helps me, time with you, time with my kids, time with my partner. I also need to go into holes. I also like I know the sensory things that I need.

have to be selfish in that and I feel terrible about it as I said to you I'm getting up in the dark at the moment so that I can go to the gym trying not to wake Charlie who's asleep in the living room and there's no way to close off a room for him and there's another baby coming at the latest next week So who knows where they're going to be. But I feel guilty about it because I'm like, I often wake as I'm rolling out the door to the gym in the darkness. But I have to do that for me.

Like I'm worse if I don't exercise. Like I have to exercise at least once every day and I really struggle if I don't. And so, you know, I think that – and you do those things as well, mate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, BJJ is like –

Yeah. That's a need in you, isn't it? Yeah, a need to get out. But also what I've realized more and more now, I'm like hanging around after class and like talking to the other people just to like get out socially because I work from home. Yeah, yeah. So now it's like a huge part of like just...

Talking smack for 10 minutes. Yeah, yeah, because you get a lot of that. But I don't feel like you feel that social exhaustion, do you? No, not from that, no way. And there's so much talking in class anyway. Yeah. It's great. Like it's, yeah. Yeah. It's good. And do you think there's a sensory need that's being there? Totally. Yeah. It's so physical. Yeah. So physical. I love that. That's the best part. Yeah. It's thrilling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very of the moment. You've got to be incredibly present. You can't just go through the motions. Yeah, the only thing I've ever done like that is sparring and boxing. We're 100% present. 100% present. Because if you're not, you're very quickly. But it's like those great sports that people really love like snowboarding and surfing, all those things like you're just like so present.

And that's why I think people are more drawn to it. Like, it's thrilling. It's exciting. You know, all that stuff can be dangerous and exciting, but it's not too dangerous. Yeah, see, I can daydream snowboarding and skateboarding. I can't daydream sparring. Yeah. Snowboarding. really yeah I'm not kidding trying to yeah isn't that a world away not temperature wise not temperature wise no you can feel it I just keep seeing all these great videos of all this great snow and I'm like

Maybe next year. Hey, Billy, any to you know what's the best way to talk about why? Yeah, the last short. Yeah, what's the best way to talk about why they are getting assessed? Yes. So I do this in clinic and I'll often ask kids, do you know why you're here to see me? Yeah. And they'll usually say no.

I say what my job is. I say I'm a doctor. I'm not a doctor that looks after coughs and colds, you know, or people that have hurt their arm. I'm a doctor that gets to meet kids who might be struggling with how they're feeling, how they're learning, how they're sleeping.

The beautiful thing is my job is to make things better for you. You know, I'm not here for your mum because mum's obviously sitting there. I'm not here for your teachers. I'm here for you. And my job, and I get paid for it, which is pretty awesome. is I get to make things better because things should be better for you from what I hear because I've heard all this awesome stuff about you and I've heard that some things can be a bit tough and we're going to change that.

And so that's what we talk about. Like, you know, if it's changing schools or something, we talk about how you deserve to be in an environment that works for you, celebrates you, harnesses you and is stronger because of you. Let's see if we can find that place or make this one. really unlock your potential and like you know to really you know take advantage of all the awesome stuff about you i genuinely mean that like so i think that's how we do it we don't do it from like a something's wrong

we're sick of you doing this, like life's too hard because of you. Like we've got to hear that when people say it because that's their experience but then we shift it towards actually we're just trying to help this kid, you know, because none of these kids that I've met wake up in the morning and they're like...

I just want to be difficult. You know, they're just stuck in patterns of behavior that are, you know, meeting a need. Like, as I said previously on an episode, these are all adaptive in their mind, the ways that they're dealing with this. Same as the four-year-old. It's violent. Yep. There's a reason. Cool. Billy, we're going to rip into the longs. I think we have five longs this week. Top of my head. Billy, dear Nick and Billy, if you read no further than this, I just really want to say...

I need that episode about should I get my kid assessed. Yes, we had a lot of people. So where this came from is a lot of people in the comments of our Instagram, a lot like. dominated one of the posts on neurodivergent kids about getting, should I get my kid assessed? Just to set that up. Yeah, definitely.

I have three children I strongly suspect are neurodivergent, but none of them have formal diagnosis. The biggest barrier is cost. I simply can't afford private assessments and I feel lost in the public system.

I want my kids to feel seen, validated and connected to a community that embraces who they are. I know a diagnosis could offer them identity and access, but would it offer practical supports we can't get already? We currently scrape... vibe to afford therapy where we can and i know we are lucky to be able to do that

Resources like your podcast help me so much in parenting in a way that validates their experience and advocates for them. It's one of the few free lifelines I can turn to and I just want to say please keep doing what you're doing. It's making a real difference. When I think of diagnosis, I also worry about stigma. As you know, labels are often deficit-based and I've seen how they shape others' perceptions.

If I had the money, I'd get the diagnosis and use it only when it serves my kids. But without the option, I wonder, can we be okay without it? Here's where we're at. My nine-year-old sees a psychologist who suspects autism. but a formal assessment is three grand. My middle child receives speech therapy and struggles with literacy. We're on a long wait list for a free developmental pediatrician at our local Aboriginal medical service. My youngest...

is almost three and likely to be on the spectrum, though she presents differently. I worry she'll be missed by screeners because she's verbal and a girl. I want to do the right. I want to do right by my kids. I grew up as a likely undiagnosed ASD household and I've seen the cost of missed identification. I still ask myself.

What does a diagnosis really give us? Is it just a piece of paper that finally legitimizes the need for support we already know exists? Or can we continue to identify our kids' needs and fight for those needs to be met without it? Every time I think about saving for assessments, something breaks, the car, the fridge, the tyres, the dream slips further away. I'd love to hear your reflection on this. I imagine I'm not the only parent sitting in this uncertainty with deep gratitude.

Yeah, so, yeah, that question of like... what will a diagnosis and diagnoses are unfortunately like the dsm-5 that all of us are using is the diagnostic manual and it's very deficit-based like has deficits in social and communication has deficits in repetitive restrictive behaviors you know, impacts their life in more than one area. It's all this deficit-based stuff.

And even Devon Price talks about this balance of like knowing that kids that are identified and diagnosed earlier often have better outcomes because early intervention, the earlier and, you know, the more evidence-based it is, the more likely that child is to functionally improve. but there is also greater vulnerability in a diagnosis of experiencing stigma. There's a couple of things to this question.

Most of, and once again using the nationally agreed guidelines, most of the kids with a condition such as autism do not require to go through... you know, expensive multidisciplinary assessments, what the guidelines show us is that most of them where there is confidence in the accuracy of the diagnosis after a broader developmental assessment, needs assessment is gone.

I always speak to every therapist and every educator that's involved in these kids before I make that diagnosis. They know these kids better than I do. They might not be able to say whether the kid has autism or not, but they can really help me know how this kid is going and what their needs are.

But then there is a small group of kids where there is a greater level of complexity where some of us will need to use those multidisciplinary assessments, but unfortunately they're often very expensive. We're trying to improve access in the public system to this because it is really important. important. But what I would say is that that's the kind of diagnostic label bit.

They, unfortunately, were advocating very strongly in Australia. I know there's people doing this overseas about moving away from a diagnosis-based system that you get support to a needs-based system. It doesn't matter if your kid has a diagnosis or not. They need the support. the support gets to them because once again, it benefits our whole society. This pays off. That's why these are like insurance schemes. That's why they call them that because they say, little Billy, if we support him now,

will be more productive in our community. He'll be more engaged. He'll need less support in the long run. Like, they're not...

It's not a kindness thing. It's a spend a dollar now, save $100. Yeah. So they're not being kind. It's an investment. The other thing I would say, and it's one of the many beautiful things about the... neurodivergence community is that it is so welcoming and what you'll find is if you look out for those communities there's many different organizations nationally that are phenomenal there's many local community-based stuff

they won't need you to have a bit of paper that says that. You know, and that ability to...

have an experience that's different to mainstream stigma often occurs in those communities because they're just so welcoming. And we know the evidence shows us that those kids... function better when they're around other neurodivergent kids do you know what i mean that's the telephone game research that says like these kids function better in those moments so what i would say is like connect to that community today

reach out, be a part of it. My experience of them is they've done a phenomenal job of advocacy. They've pushed back against all the stuff like stop hand flapping and all the therapy that went into all those things. They have a really powerful lived experience voice that is...

equal important if not more so to the clinical bit and reach out to them but also like look in your community for pathways for people that do have experience in this where it isn't thousands and thousands of dollars because we've just seen a huge business model especially in the

adult space push up now where you would probably know mates I know mates where they go and pay thousands of dollars now they have one appointment they get diagnosed with ADHD and unfortunately then they'll get a letter telling someone else to start the medication and no problem

assessments being done excluding things such as possible anxiety and that medication makes it worse and both those conditions have difficulty concentrating in them so if you're just looking for ADHD that's all you'll find okay Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So, yeah, it's an amazing question though. Yeah, it is. Yeah, a lot of people gravitated towards it. Gents, bloody love the pod.

Came across your pod a few months ago whilst pregnant with my firstborn, who is currently eight weeks old. I've listened to so much of your back catalogue. As someone who has significant childhood trauma... is trying to break a generational cycle and be attentive, available and regulate my emotions. So, when I was pregnant, I sought out advice and information that would help me do better and I found your pod and oh boy, am I grateful for it.

I'm emailing you today for the first time as I am neurodivergent. I've got dyspraxia and my husband is undiagnosed ADHD. So while this is in mind, I want to make sure I'm... present enough for my son, for my son that I know what signs and milestones to look out for that might indicate he's also neurodivergent. And then how I best support him. I know this may depend on an individual's needs, but as a child who was not diagnosed until I was 16.

who hated school, felt stupid, and whose self-confidence still suffers as a result, I want to do what I can to avoid the same experiences for them. Thanks again, gents. The work you do is so key for so many. In my experience, most new parents don't have a traditional village community they used to and I think the pod is going a ways to help reduce the gap that we have in our support network. Cheers.

So yeah, there's a clinical answer to that and then there's like a more philosophical one. The clinical one about early signs, it's really interesting. A lot of the research, what they did is they did retrospective analysis. So what they did is kids who had a diagnosis of autism say it like... they would go back and watch old birthday videos and observe what the differences in the kids were. And it kind of is in alignment with what we see as early...

deficit-based stuff, which is usually nonverbal communication. That's often the early experience or sensory overwhelm. Does that make sense? Yeah. So those are often the early signs, even when we follow kids. So say we know that there's an increased chance if your parents are autistic or have ADHD or whatever, if we watch... than those kids really closely, the earliest signs we catch that are identifiable to clinicians like me are often around sensory overwhelm.

or complexities of language such as non-verbal communication, not language delay. So language delay is not associated with it. Charlie's behind in his language development. The majority of kids his age that are behind in their language development will not end up with a neurodevelopmental diagnosis.

it's about 15% of two-year-olds will have that. About 6% of kids at school entry will have it because there's new kids that emerge. The majority of them, by the time they hit school, will not have language delay. Another beautiful thing though around clinical examination of when you watch these kids really closely, they actually show strengths before this in things like pattern recognition and discrimination. Like these young kids in like early first...

one or two years of life are actually better at doing things like picking the odd one out of patterns and things like that. And this is their attention to detail. This is their ability in their brain to pick up every bit of information. Now, that's also the reason. that sensory environments can be really overwhelming because so much is coming in but also when they can focus on stuff, they will discriminate better. So they might struggle with discriminating facial expressions but...

you know, geometrical patterns, for example, they're much better at it. And so it's this really interesting difference in the way that their brains work. Now, there's also a philosophical question around, like, we should just watch every kid.

and see how they're going. And I completely understand someone being like, I wish I had been identified earlier, but we should actually be using the same lens on every kid. What's their experience like? Are they succeeding? Are they having growth in the things that matter to them? Are we unintentionally pushing them towards things that actually cause a lot of strain, sensory overwhelm?

social fatigue, all of that stuff from an early age. Like toddlers, a lot of toddlers will struggle with this. So thinking about what does success look like. It's going to be hard to see like early signs. I don't know. I'm just thinking about kids before three. Like I have no idea. So just you're the clinician. I completely can see that. But I'm like so much going on for like between one and three, I reckon, for a kid. And like I just find like.

boys then as well like like to see boys like that age always find it like you know like

Sometimes if their language is like a touch behind the girls, I get that general end of like frustration where they're just short on the words. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Am I making this up? No, no, no. Totally. To see that like I'd find it's – Yeah, well, it's kind of like what's – Bert could probably see Evie Kids. Yeah, but I'm still bad at it with my own kids. But I like, you know, Evie.

needed more support in her emotional regulation. So that's what I help her with. She doesn't need any help with her language. Do you know what I mean? Charlie is fine with his emotional regulation and he needs help with his language. So I go to his specific need, but I'm not.

making it awful for them. Like it's fun. It's really interesting. I thought there was going to be heaps of questions about therapy. Like what's the best therapy? And so I was like excited to talk about that and almost none came in. So it just shows like, which is what I do in clinic. I'm like, there's heaps of stuff I want to talk about. What do you want to talk about? And the community didn't seem to want to talk about that.

But I'll still fit a little bit in here. One of the best evidence-based stuff, especially in the early years, which is kind of naturalistic, environmentally-based, like let's do what you're doing instead of sit in like a structured therapy environment, is just...

getting down on the floor and playing with these kids. Do you know what I mean? And I can get down on the floor and play with Evie and help with emotional regulation and I can get down on the floor and play with Charlie and help him with his language development. Do you know what I mean? Because it's playful. They lead it.

And with Charlie, I'm helping him identify different objects, communicate his needs, experience success when he's using vocalizations, whatever. With Evie, I'm helping her when she gets frustrated, validate that experience, connect with it. understand it, and then learn what works. Yep. Yeah, good. Hopefully that's helpful. No, very helpful. Sorry, I'm just sending me off. I'm getting that thousand yard stare because I'm just thinking about my own kids when you're going through this.

And then I have to go back. Sorry. But it's a constantly evolving thing, isn't it? Yeah. It's going to change all the time. There'll be times where you're like this, cruising. There'll be other times where you're like, oh, man, I'm really worried about that. How do I find that game to connect with my kid on that thing that they need to work on?

Fine and hard, Billy. Sorry. Three of them? Three, yes, that's right. Yes. I'm Nick and Billy, long-time listener and lover of the pod. Love your work. Exponentially changing lives and breaking cycles. God's work, my friends.

I'm a mummer of four kids. Yes, four. Insane. What have you got for four? Because a few people write in and it's like, Nick, three kids, parents that are relaxed. Who are you hanging out with? Have you got any fours? I've got, yeah, I hang out with one family that's got four.

four under i reckon grade three yeah right isn't it great yeah happy oh i know the dad a bit more lovely like always smiling i just think there's like that i think yeah like that yeah you just let it flow just let it flow that's what i say at three I'm like, at three, they just go, I see the ones with three and they're just like. I was going to give that Simpsons quote, these goggles do nothing. You know, when he's like the wave of media.

Anyway, sorry. Yeah, I just find, yeah, anyway. Four and same. One neurotypical seven-year-old girl, a diagnosed neurodivergent 11-year-old boy, an undiagnosed but suspected neurodivergent four-year-old girl. And one year old girl who is anyone's guess. Her leg kicking and head bobbing has got me suspicious though. My 11 year old is an exceptional kid. Bright, social, interesting, talented, curious and also on the spectrum. with ADHD and OCD.

We had him diagnosed two years ago and now he has support through an OT psychologist and a support worker, etc. All of this has been greatly beneficial and coupled with my husband and I continually working on being the best parents we can for our individual kids while also having ADHD.

four kids, jobs, etc. His capacity for function in a world not designed for him has increased and his window of tolerance is expanding. My question is around the subject of feedback. I know a lot of ND kids and have have rsd rejection sensitive dysphoria what's that i will talk about it but yeah okay and we are conscious

of that with our son. However, he really struggles to take any feedback, no matter how gentle, no matter what the situation, no matter who from and any suggestions on how things... how to do things differently, more functionally, et cetera, result in him feeling someone is mad at him, hates him, or he's a terrible person or something that's wrong with him.

It's heartbreaking and frustrating and when he gets this idea, he becomes so dysregulated that it's difficult to come back from without heavy lifting on our part or the schools, etc. When I say feedback, it can be as small as something like, hey buddy, please don't run up the stairs when the baby's asleep. It wakes her up. Or he might ask for an opinion on something.

If it's not 100% a positive response, he'll be really cut even on opposing opinions on something like, do you like this song? Or in typical ND fashion, He wants to have a deep intellectual and political conversation, but when he's guided gently on opposing perspectives, he takes it personally.

Both his OT and psych, plus my husband and I have tried various strategies, less demand, tailoring, tasks for success, positive reinforcement, but nothing seems to make a big difference. Heading into high school, I really want to help him see how wonderful he is for himself. to truly believe it and also be able to understand sometimes feedback, criticisms, opposing opinions will be encountered and it isn't a reflection on who he is.

This is a kid who is immensely talented. Beyond his years, in most things, he puts his mind and hands to. I sound like a wanker, but you should see him play the Beatles by ear. Every instrument, not even exaggerating. Support from a small community, more recently a good group of friends, adult mentors and pretty consistent external validation from people around him. He's celebrated and loved and appreciated and shown love by his peers and family. Can you help with any strategies?

or even more clarity on how this plays out for ND kids. It's a big challenge for us and him. Big thank you in advance, team. Love your work. What's playing out for the kid, Billy?

First. Who were you thinking of? Get going. This is a long. Give me the dates. This is great. Yeah, yeah. So RSD or rejection-sensitive dysphoria is really common. It actually doesn't have a yes, and yes is the important word. It's not a... classification yet but it is really commonly seen in kids with ADHD yes and because I think I have this with a kid around me I want to know like what is

What's going on? I think I have this. I thought you were thinking of me. No, no, no. I know you were thinking of you. No, I'm thinking of someone else. But yeah, yeah, no. Well, that description is like my last week. Yeah, it is a bit. And you know me well enough. But yeah, so I really, it's quite funny when that question came through. What's going on for the kid? What's going on for people that have that experience is that they have had multiple iterations of faith.

in so many things that they try out. So they have this hypersensitivity. They have this threat-seeking. They have this like... lack of self-worth when they don't immediately succeed at something. I know. It's so hard. I'm not being a wanker. I mean, the person said, if you feel like you, I'm not.

If you had multiple failings, you'd have a lot of success. That wouldn't be for you. Good example, the podcast, like hundreds and hundreds of positive feedback in the last fortnight. The five negative comments that have come through would derail you. And it's an interesting thing about RSD. RSD...

is very similar to a mood disorder like depression. The difference is depression builds. So depression over time and time and time. But what happens with RSD is you immediately look like you have it. You immediately go into that like... overwhelming, destroying, dysfunctional. Like I'm, you know, hopefully no one will use this to harm me further. I can't get stuff out of my head.

You know, I'm writing, I'm sitting in clinic thinking about it, like feeling like a failure, feeling upset about it. That's a lot of these kids experience this over and over again. And like without getting too much into it, actually thinking about it and then that question coming through and thinking about all the research around RSD has made me think about myself in that context and in the frame of like neurodiversity. Because yeah, I remember some...

Someone sent in like how I said I wasn't that smart and they were like, that doesn't make sense. And I'm like, I failed through most of school. Like I failed through a lot of university. Right. And I still fail a lot in life with things like that. One tiny bit of... even constructive criticism. I really struggle with, you know that. Yeah. And so a lot of these kids have the same experience and they're like,

you know, I'm a minute over 40, they're like in their, you know, the young years. Yeah, so they're like, you know, really understandably do not have the capacity that even I struggle to find, which is being more objective about things. And so the answer isn't...

be more objective what do you do you in the safest environment and safest relationships you role model you support them through low levels of difficulty with struggling with this you like actively make sure the majority of the time they succeed but also have little tiny experiences one person sent in his stuff about like

It's not about increasing window of tolerance. It's about us just being who we are and the world letting us be like that, which I completely agree with. The problem is a lot of kids, the way the world is, can't leave their bedroom. they constantly have everything needs to be perfect so we actually have to when the child chooses it and says yeah i'm finding this really frustrating i want to work on it for me not to perform as someone else wants me to

then we help them build the skill set around that frustration tolerance, remembering that is emotional regulation and skill acquisition. How do we think about in this specific thing of taking feedback, but it also goes right... back to our stuff around attachment, that insecurity, that self-worth.

Pretty Woman. Like so many of our episodes have been about building the foundational understanding and then skill set to support these kids in the fragility they have of feeling like they're not good enough or they're worthless unless they're perfect. So it goes back more towards the self-esteem stuff. The self-esteem stuff, the practice in safe environments, low levels of difficulty, which is what this person is doing.

Often the kids that are failing, especially when there's this much consistent support around, is the stretch is too much or there's an underlying need that's not being met, such as anxiety. And if you have base level anxiety and then you tip... In little things like having to go to school, someone around you you don't feel comfortable with, routine has changed, all that stuff, you're outside of your window of functioning. Do you know what I mean? Right.

Yes. So do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Say I'm struggling with it and you're like, all right, Billy, there's some feedback on the pod we've got to talk about. The person's like 99% saying how amazing it is but they just said you use the wrong word. you would want to have that conversation with me after you've given me warmth, you've made sure that all my days are going okay, in the environment I've got space, not.

In a noisy pub, someone sitting opposite me that I've never met. I've just told you that I'm like at the end of my tether already. I haven't slept last night. But all these kids are stuck in that environment so much that they don't actually have the resources internally. to actually build that capacity okay

There's a little bit of evidence as well. There's not much evidence around RSD, but there's a little bit of evidence that two different types of medications that we use, the kind of mood medications and the ADHD medications can be effective. So it is worth... to someone like me or a psychiatrist that prescribes those medications because they might potentially be helpful in that space as well. Yep. Gap is a ripping question.

I like that question. Greetings, Nick and Billy. I'm not sure if this is going to be a short, long or medium question, but I'll try and keep it succinct as I know how inundated you are with emails. For a long time now, I've recognized my daughter is highly sensitive. As early as six weeks old when she was relaxed in my arms breastfeeding. Our front door slammed and triggered a 30 minute episode of serious screaming and my husband and I were unable to soothe her. She continued to be a...

quite unsettled baby, needed perfect conditions to sleep and is now a 0-100 reactive child. She feels everything deeply from anger to excitement and keeps me and her dad on our toes. We never know what mood she'll be in from one minute to the next and it affects our whole family. She's now almost seven years old and will not flush the toilet or go near a hand dryer.

She startles if I speak to her when she is engrossed in play and will then have a meltdown. I've read Dr. Aaron's book, The Highly Sensitive Child and done her questionnaire. where my daughter is a yes for 21 out of 23 questions. Some of these include complaining about scratchy clothing, doesn't do well with change, very sensitive to pain notices, subtleties, feels things deeply. These all seem to be the same traits as a child with ASD.

After listening to your podcast from 1 through to 110, reading your book, Billie, and also seeing a developmental pediatrician, she has been coined as an anxious child potentially stemming from ASD. We've started the process of neurodiversity assessment. I have found myself almost wanting the ASD diagnosis now because over the years I have used the term highly sensitive and people don't seem to understand or think it's just an excuse for her behaviours.

I would like to know how you can tell whatever your child... I would like to know how you can tell whether your child is autistic or just highly sensitive, or are they just two different terms for the same thing? Sorry if this is a silly question. I love, love, love your work Billy and Nick.

I look forward to each episode and share them with all the people I know. Thank you for the life-changing work you're doing. Cheers. You both included in my list of people you would most likely invite to your dinner party. Well, I like steak and red wine. But I'll have anything. Who would make your cut at dinner party? You. I'd have some chicken pizza. So I know you'd come along.

It's funny how like you're so ready for it now that you just say me straight away. You don't do the pause so I can't catch you on the pause. Who'd be your second choice? Oh, Henrietta. No one famous. No one famous. No one famous. No, no one famous. Didn't you? Oh, I don't know. I'd have... I don't know who I know. I can't say anything.

This is a ripping question. Yeah, yeah. I love this one. I really do. Like, I've heard also things like, are they trait-y? They've got traits? Yeah, yeah. They've got ASD trait? Like, because I've... One of my kids is quite anxious, I think, and quite sensitive, right? And you know this, you're around this a lot. And then like I hear people go, oh, they've got traits. And you go, oh, what's that? You know, like.

you know, ASD, you know, autistic traits and you go, okay, so does that mean they are or like are they just still really sensitive or is it anxiety? Like it's just like... Which is why I think like neurodiversity or having a neurodivergent child, I hope you term correctly. It's okay. Like where does it all sit? And then like this parent, like I think another parent, it's like diagnosis is great or whatever. I just want to.

support them it's what I've always thought I'm like just wherever they sit on this like I think of like this spectrum or whatever it's like a plane that's somewhere like a literal plane and it's like they sit there somewhere in there and like

I just want to know what to do. Yeah, beautiful. And that's the idea of the spectrum. There's even really cool research that's quite old now from colleagues of mine about how there's eight spectrums, not just one spectrum, and talking about socialization as a spectrum and all that kind of stuff. Right. So, yeah, it's...

really important i think to think about that and i think like it's funny i obviously with my clinical hat on think about traits and like what characteristics of a potential neurodevelopmental diagnosis is this child

demonstrating but it goes back to what i said before i'm also thinking about what needs are they experiencing that aren't being met and so yeah that's kind of where the difference sits so there's a huge overlap in emotional sensitivity or what we're actually talking about which is temperament

And we've done that on Sensitive Kids ages back, Parenthood. Maybe we have to go back to it because there's just too much in it. Eight episodes. Yeah, we were going to do a mini series. We were going to do a series on it. We were like, this is pretty rude. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it's phenomenal. There's so many kind of archetypal things in that movie. But I still went too early with time out on that, but it was our first step. We're pretty rusty. We didn't have rust. Yeah.

But temperament is set. Temperament is set before you're born. We can catch a kid with sensitive temperament before they're a year of age. And that's what this parent is demonstrating. You've clocked it. Yeah. so they've caught that sensitivity in their temperament because your temperament or emotional sensitivity is really how do you experience the world emotionally and how do you express those emotions

neurodivergence is about a different way that your brain processes everything. Incoming. Yeah, sounds, tastes, feelings, body language, other people. empathy, like it's not just how easily you struggle emotionally. or have big reactions. Does that make sense? There's an overlap but they're two different things. It really annoys me that people think that emotionally sensitive kids is just an excuse because it's a need.

And as we know, those kids thrive once they have sensitive, responsive, predictable, consistent relationships and environments. They do really, really, really well. So saying that into an excuse is pretty awful. I'm also defending myself there in that moment because I obviously have a sensitive temperament. But it's just a difference. So I think that thinking about them as two different things is really important, but there's a huge overlap. Have I answered that question properly? Yep.

Is there any bits of it? No, it's just kind of, yeah, they overlap. But one is not the other. Yeah, and so think about it as like say let's use ADHD. Yeah. So I will, so say I've got ADHD and I'm sitting in clinic.

And I'm either finding it hard to focus on the conversation or I'm disorganized. So I'm less in the kind of hyperactive, you know, just as a... just as a thought process there's a lot of the stuff that i struggle with as you know is being disorganized you know and a lot of i have a lot of challenges because of the world and not to my own was phenomenal But I have a lot of like an experience growing up of getting a hard time because of how disorganized I was.

That still impacts me today. I really struggle with environments that are disorganized and I really beat myself up when I miss things and be disorganized. What that means is that combined with an emotionally sensitive temperament means that I'm more likely to experience waves of emotional dysregulation because there is a potential, like just for the thought experiment, neurodevelopmental component of me.

that experiences increased difficulty because the world says this is how you should be you know you should be organized you should be able to like tolerate It's a bit like there's a beautiful book that was written a long time ago. So it's less external environment that will see you wave up and down. It could just be something that just goes off in you a little bit.

Yeah. Whereas a sensitive kid reacts to a sensitive environment or something. Like they've picked up on something that's actually happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's their brain getting flooded. They get flooded but it is driven by... It's not just like it's just turned on out of nowhere. Yeah, whereas being a neurodivergent individual in a world that means that you're more likely to experience failure, frustration, errors, mistakes, tripping up.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, yeah, we talked about one of the parents said that dyspraxia, that's motor coordination stuff. If the world, every surface was unstable and you were tripping over all the time and no one else was.

you would be more likely to have emotional dysregulation if you have a sensitive temperance. Yeah. Some people, as you know, can just roll through that stuff. Yeah. You know, they're just like, yeah, it's cool. Like Annalisa's like that. She can just like, it can be chaos. And she's like, it's sweet. We'll figure it out.

You know, whereas I'm like overwhelmed and all that stuff. And there's a beautiful book written for a long time ago, The Curious Incident of the Dog in Midnight, I think it is. I should remember the author. It's terrible of me. I just didn't know if I was... Didn't know I was going to mention it. And it talks about how this boy, who isn't stated as being on the spectrum, but talks about this boy's, how good his day is determined by how many red cars he sees on the way to school. Right.

And I'm often, my day and how I am is often determined by my ride into the hospital. If I have one person that says hi or like, hey, how are you going? Or just does something nice and does a gesture to someone else in front of me. It puts me in the best mood. If someone does some minor tiny thing where they'll cut in front of someone else in the head of me or be rude or something like this, like you know this. Yeah, yeah. Cyclist screamed at Annalise the other day.

Didn't know that I was there. I spent the next two days thinking about it. I'd speak to you about two days later and say, what would you have done, mate? This guy just screamed at Annalise in the car, like completely inappropriately because he just saw a woman with kids. And I took everything in me not to say anything. And now I feel like I've done the wrong thing.

So do you know what I mean? That sensitive temperament means that, but also combined with the sensitivity around the world and the experience that I have. And that's the interesting thing with empathy is that neurodivergent people often get overwhelmed by empathy. They experience it in a different way.

They often have a better understanding to read a room, for example, how everyone's going in terms of like from a compassionate perspective, whereas someone else might just cruise in there and be like, yeah, sweet, I didn't even notice that person over in the corner that was really struggling. So then it impacts them. Yep. It's a long answer. I hope that makes sense. No, it makes sense. I find it. I've got to get my head around. I have to re-listen to that just to soak it in.

Yeah, but it helps if you do think there's a component of neurodivergence there, it helps to think about how do I help reduce that environmental burden. that that kid is experiencing so that their sensitive temperament experiences less dysregulation. Yep. And less triggers. Yep. Makes sense. Cool. It does. Okay. Last long.

Just wanted to say thank you for your amazing podcast and all the phenomenal work that you do. I'm a new mum and have found PCP so helpful and entertaining while navigating this beautiful and at times challenging phase of my life. Your most recent episode on neurodiversity really struck a chord for me. I'm a health professional and while I'm studying, I worked as a disability support worker.

In that time, I had the privilege of working with a beautiful kid on the autism spectrum who also had an intellectual disability. During my shifts, we would go on after-school adventures around the city. And have so much fun. What an amazing job, eh?

This kid who is now a young adult and no longer a client but a dear friend is kind, loving, cheeky and such a joy to be around. However, most people don't understand him because he has limited verbal communication, needs some extra support and can look different when he stims. I'm often frustrated and hurt by the way people treat my friend. This is most often strangers staring or moving away from him in public. Sometimes...

Well-intentioned friends or family say that I'm so kind to still hanging out with him even though I'm no longer his support worker. I wish people could see how I... See him how I do and consider how upsetting these actions and the beliefs underpinning their comments are. Can you imagine how his parents might feel if they heard them? My friend deserves to be celebrated like any other young person and have opportunities to connect with others and pursue his interests.

Sorry for the long-winded story. My question is, what are your tips for how to encourage other people to develop empathy and understanding of neurodiversity so they can celebrate people like my friend? Thank you again for all that you do. It's amazing, isn't it? Wonderful.

Yeah, so it's interesting. I was thinking about that long question and like, you know, what we do in clinic is thinking about like a strength-based approach and like we're putting out some new content with other professionals as well that's coming soon and thinking about like what are you good at and what do you like.

I think the risk of like that strength-based approach with neurodivergent individuals is that look at all the things they're good at. That's the rain man bit about like this is what they're exceptional at. Let's just focus on that. But I think... The other half of that is really helpful. What do they like? And thinking about...

What are the things they enjoy? Where is their overlap? You go right back to our friendship episodes. I've never been complimented on how good that pairing was with Dumb and Dumber. I think it's a beautiful episode. It's a beautiful movie about the journey of friendship. It is. But we built all the evidence through it. that around

Shared interests. Remember that? We talked about it with siblings as well. Shared interests. So what are their interests? Where do they overlap with other people? And that can be a real beautiful bridge to be like understanding and connecting with someone is shared interests, shared preferences, things. like that and so thinking about that instead of like you know how do we tell them that you're being mean you know or call out

That's really harmful, which I think has a place. But I think that people are much more likely to experience behavioral change if they see this good feeling about it. You know, oh, they're into that, so am I. like that's really cool you know like whatever it is and that's the beautiful thing about leaving high school is that you know i and i'm still stuck in this a bit like i went through high school and was like it's cool to snowboard it's cool to surf it's cool to skateboard

And then you get out of high school and you realize there's all these people that are really into these like niche things like Dungeons and Dragons or certain card games and they get to be themselves, connect with themselves and be around people that celebrate their interests. Do you know what I mean? I think a lot of that is a really beautiful thing, just lighthearted, because I know some heavy stuff is coming in the reflections in the final bits of advice.

I think it's really important professionally if you work in this space to work in these roles. I don't think I've ever told you this story. But there's a funny experience that I had. I used to be in orderly in hospitals for four years during med school every weekend. And one of the things that I...

to have to do is prepare like it was kind of like cleaner i moved beds around all this stuff really valuable experience i got a lot out of it maybe not as much as child care But I've got an okay bedside manner and I reckon I can pinpoint exactly where I learned it, which was when... before you get ready for cardiac surgery, for having open heart surgery, as an often older man, you...

have to get your body ready for taking veins out of certain places, which includes being completely shaved. Oh, right. while lying there naked. And I would be the person that for 45 minutes would shave naked men. Wow. My God. You get really good at being comfortable with like... Stuff.

Lots of different stuff. But it just made me think about that person and how they'll be a better professional in that space because they've actually experienced the life of someone. And so I had this experience of really...

awkward social patient you know time sitting with each other and i can kind of yeah i actually genuinely think as funny as it is that I benefited from that time of like just sitting there with someone I'd never met, walking in the room with a shaver and being like, hey, I'm Billy. Probably, I'm sure. I wonder if they were hoping that it wasn't me. But yeah, it's just an interesting thing about, just to end on a lighthearted bit, about getting to know...

The people that we care for professionally outside of that space is I think a really important thing that can enrich our opportunity to do it better. Yep. You know, so that's why the volunteering and all that stuff is really powerful. Yep, definitely.

All right, Billy, let's wrap it up with some advice from our listeners. I think we've got four today to read through. Is that right? Yes, yes, and I'll go first. I'll kick it off. Okay, go for it. So, yes. Okay. Dear Nick and Billy, I'm a freshly minted general psychologist in a beautiful city of Brisbane that works with neurodivergent kin of all ages.

Shout out to Brisbane. It's amazing I lived here four years. Beautiful city. I'm a neurodivergent myself. ADHD and long-standing suspicion of autism as well. and was so excited to listen to this episode. I've been listening since the Interstellar in Love episode and have been following diligently ever since. Your pod is absolutely an incredible resource that I recommend to so many parents and I had to share my thoughts after hearing this episode.

As a psychologist that works with ND kids, I could tell you about all the strategies that work best from building emotional regulation. through interceptive awareness, to developing a person's sense of confidence and identity through engagement in special interests, but those recommendations are not my highest. For those parents with children that are quirky, weird, eccentric or old souls that are wondering whether to get their child diagnosed, please seek it out.

All too often I see parents shy away from labels of ADHD and autism out of fear for societal backlash and genuine concern that their children will be ostracised. As a neurodivergent person myself, I know firsthand the damage that can come from living life without support and self-compassion, and I see it every day in clinic where children as young as five will hold such negative views of themselves and their brains.

While parents hesitate to label, what they fail to remember is that their kids get labelled every day noisy, weird, annoying, know-it-all, oppositional, disruptive, crazy. difficult. Throughout my own diagnosis, I learned a beautiful quote. It's better to know you're a normal zebra than a weird horse. How beautiful to belong despite the differences you have. Thank you.

not because of any particularly amazing therapeutic strategy or techniques, but because they're being heard and understood by someone that understands them right back. I adore my work and take so much pride in being the light for so many who have felt lost, misunderstood, isolated and forgotten. Absolutely love the pod and the hope and wisdom that continue to spread through those that need it most.

no longer lost zebra it's beautiful isn't it it's nice yeah yeah i actually just reminded me i saw probably one of my best experiences this week was a kid who's still pretty lost teenager, like pretty much at adult age, but I've seen him for a while and really struggling. He came into the clinic high on drugs and really distressed. And he was just so dysregulated but upset. Neurodivergent kid who's kind of had a lot of trauma, kicked out of school, all that stuff.

He was just so overwhelmed and sad because he's like, one of my mates is missing. He's been gone for two weeks. He's in with the wrong crowd. And I'm really worried something's gone wrong. And he's just pouring his eyes out saying this. And he's like, my other two mates are in jail and they're on long stretches. And I just, I don't know if I can go without them, like without seeing them.

And he was just like bawling his eyes out in the room and just this like, this beautiful soul, like that old soul kind of thing. And he's just so lost because he's kind of been... just left out for so long and it's kind of goes back to that bit that i was talking about about all these kids get like have such poor experiences that they are more likely to experience incarceration criminal activity and all that stuff and it was

was really cool it made me think about that long and that person that's just sent that reflection in about like how do we make all of our spaces therapeutic for people and all of our relationships and that was kind of one of the highlights of my week was just being able to sit there and say you know i'm so sorry you're experiencing this you don't deserve it and um let's find a way through it it was really beautiful because it also made me think of john coffee because he he's moved and he's like

He's like, it's way better where I am because he's like, there isn't as much noise. I can actually hear myself think. And like that idea of like the sensory overwhelm that he's experiencing every single day that's reducing his capacity and making him, he has a sensitive temperament, making him more likely to experience that dysregulation.

Just a beautiful kid that I have the privilege of getting to know. And he is. He's stuck developmentally in some aspects because he just missed windows of opportunity to gain certain skill sets. So we just go back to them and help him gain them. Anyway.

Yeah, it's my week. Two, sorry. Two. Thanks for once again bringing discussion, learning, and guidance to the world. I will do my very best to keep this reflection as tight as possible, but no promises. I'm a mum of two amazing neurodivergent teenagers. My story will not be unique. My oldest was never easy but hit the toddler tantrums with all the might and never came out.

We were beautifully supported by the MCH nurse, a maternal child health nurse, and Parent Support Network and did everything we were told to do, but nothing helped. We got more and more distressed and spent most of the time in full threat response leading to hours and hours of daily extreme violence. We were told to set more boundaries, so we did. We were told to stay firm, so we did. We were told to hold him down, so we did.

It took until he was nearly six to find out that he was autistic with ADHD. Looking back now, I don't know how we missed it, but once again we found more professionals and did what we were told. We had a beautiful, passionate play and they did what they thought. Beautiful, passionate school. Sorry. We had a beautiful, passionate school. Sorry. And they did what they thought was the way to deal with autism.

It still didn't work. As things progressed, life became more unsafe for us all, especially our youngest. I was convinced we were going to end up in a coroner's court from my oldest accidentally killing our youngest. I recorded every phone call, every name, every email to show I did everything I could to keep my children alive. Fast forward to the good bit, we found the right team and we found the right understanding.

We now understand both our children are autistic with PDA profile, have ADHD and lots of anxiety. It is not the label but how they work that has helped. We know both my husband and I are also neurodivergent. We moved to the country. on land and as a family live across two houses. We homeschool, we prioritise development over a school expectation and we found the right fit of professionals.

We prioritize doing what we need, not what society wants us to do. And my goodness, have we been told over and over again what we should be doing. So here is my points. Prioritize what your kid needs before all else. When my kids were suicidal, we didn't care if they could ride a bike. That came later. Design the life that works for you. In truth, you may lose people, but there is grief.

But you may also find a world of people who are like you. Focus on the wins. We would write down a win each day for a long time to attempt to keep hope. Some days it just... was just that we made it through without a death. That's okay because other days it might have been that someone smiled, which was beyond a good day. Give yourself a break. As Billy said, often we are very sensitive as neurodivergent people. We may need to rest and take time to do things.

that give us peace. This is not a luxury, it's a necessity. I wish I had learnt this last point earlier before I hit burnout myself. We still have a way to go, but when I think about the past, I'm amazed we survived. But we did, and even though we are continuously faced with bigger, exhausting hurdles, we will still survive.

Trust yourself and trust your kids. You know them best. And for the friends, family and teachers, I beg you please listen to us and assume we are doing what is possible. No one wants to consistently disappoint anyone. But if you embrace our kids like several family and friends have for us, they will show you magic. Beautiful, but joined on as well, just like an amazing parent. All right, two to go.

We end on a high one. Got you closing it out on a beautiful example of being inclusive. Dear Dr. Billy and DP Nick, developing parent. Sorry people relate to that. I do love the high Nick and Billy, Heineken Billy, but wanted to acknowledge how I also love the developing parent Nick. It's so relatable. I'm a developing grandparent.

I started listening after I'd heard Dr. Billy on the Imperfects, I think. I brought the book as soon as it came out and a copy for my daughter-in-law, my grandie's mum and a childcare educator. I promote your podcast wherever I can without being pushy and chime in on my thoughts, experience and learnings while listening to each session. I really appreciate what you're doing to Progress Child and Adolescent Health through this podcast and community.

I've learned a lot and really intently listened so I could be a better granny, but now I'm learning to be a better partner, a better parent, and a kinder parent to myself even. This episode was particularly interesting as we're a family full of neurodiversity and I have kids and nieces and nephews and parents and siblings with neurodiversity, including myself, I'd say. And this conversation really made sense of some aspects.

What made me decide to write in was a tragedy that hit home this week when we learned one of our friend's eldest children had taken their life this week. A young adult just starting with their parents' help. on the journey to unravel the mystery of themselves that involve neurodiversity. It's terribly sad that this pathway and the lives of so many are so painful that self-harm and suicide becomes the only viable outlet they can see.

It highlights to me how easily this could be one of my children, both neurodivergent adults and both who experience supreme social anxiety and many challenges and symptoms associated with neurodivergent brains. If we can get more people understanding how to communicate with and understand neurodivergent humans, hopefully we can make progress in accommodating everybody in this weird world we live in.

without the pain associated with feeling different and being told to just try harder, be better, be normal, whatever that looks like. My Winslow today. I took my granny to swimming, and I always do as we checked in. It was advised that the regular teacher was away. Cue, uh-oh.

We proceeded to go into the pool and instead of what I would have thought was right and done merely months ago, I tried a different approach. When my grandchild said I'm nervous about a new teacher, I didn't say it's okay. I said I understand. You miss your usual teacher. We can wait here and meet the new teacher and you don't have to do anything you don't feel comfortable with. I'm right here.

I reinforced this message and when the time came we held hands. I told the teacher E was anxious without the teacher of two years and that I would be here if E didn't want to proceed but she was going to sit on the edge for now. I was super proud of how E edged her way into the lesson and fully engaged, watching for her grandparents proudly cheering as she did all the tasks in the class but without coercion, with her own commitment.

Thanks for the support and framework to drop the demand and increase the support to give them satisfaction and sense of accomplishment. Without this, I may have thought it was in the best interest to brave a new environment and just get in the pool. Turns out with the right support they worked that out for themselves after safely assessing and feeling okay in the environment.

It was also an opportunity to speak to our grandchild number two and to show them how my learning had shaped this event and how when they expressed they were anxious it was important not to say it's okay because it's not okay for them and to acknowledge that and support them. and their approach and change in the way of feeling safe for them. Thank you both and your families for your hard work and building a wonderful community.

To the last one, man. I almost ended on that, but I thought I might change it up a bit while they're not starting. But yeah, how amazing. Yeah, amazing. Grandma, amazing. Yeah, we've got a whole bunch of grandparents that listen, which is really cool. So good.

Hey, last one, Billy. Hi, Billy and Nick. Just wanted to start by saying how much I admire everything you're doing with the podcast and beyond. Your work is genuinely changing lives now and for the future. It's such a powerful ripple effect you're creating. and it's felt far and wide. I wanted to share something that really moved me recently. My husband and I took our two little ones, three and five, to a relaxed performance of Beauty and the Beast at the main theatre here in Adelaide.

As a parent and also as an educator, I found it to be a deeply eye-opening experience in terms of what true inclusion can look like for neurodivergent individuals and their families. The theatre had gone above and beyond. Quiet rooms were set up, QR codes linked to visual communication boards, and there were beautifully detailed explanations of the plot characters and special effects to come. Before the show began...

Autism South Australia among others took the stage to walk us through what to expect even allowing the actors to introduce themselves which gave the audience a gentle behind the scenes look that helped make the performance feel safer and more accessible. They demonstrated the special effects and introduced a coloured light system to signal when potentially intense moments were approaching.

Volunteers were positioned throughout the theatre to offer support and house lights stayed gently dimmed rather than going fully dark. In their opening remarks, the hosts warmly encourage everyone to stim, move, vocalize, whatever they need to do to feel comfortable and truly enjoy the show. It was honestly such a beautiful, heartwarming, hopeful reminder of how inclusive the world can be. So many families were able to have an experience that they might not have otherwise been possible.

I figured you might appreciate hearing about it, really aligned with so many of the themes you speak about passionately. Like you said in your episode, it is the world that is the disability, not those who are neurodivergent. That was so cool. Very cool. God, I wonder if we do that here. Yeah, it'd be great. That's what I mean. The advocacy groups are amazing. Yeah.

Cool. So there's going to be another one. Feel free to. There's still questions coming in, heaps of them this morning even. Feel free to keep sending them in. They'll keep being read. It's a real privilege to have those coming through. We will come back and do it again.

And, yeah, thanks, mate, for going on that journey. No, loving it. It's always a pleasure. I can't wait to re-listen to this one. There's a couple of key takeaways for me, particularly around the sensitivity of kids, which I'll take with me, which will be awesome.

Billy, thank you so much. A lot of work went into that one. It looks like it's going to be a lot of one of the part three as well. I do love a part three. You do? Called it. I wanted one for the conflict resolution, but I think I just... I can tell when they're going to be big.

This is a big one. Awesome. Guys, thanks very much. Keep sending your messages through. You might get into the part three if you didn't get into the part two, but enjoy the episode. Hey, don't let your mother smell that beer on your breath. She'll take it out on me. I don't want to see you again for the rest of my whole life. I don't want to see anybody outside. Who is your daddy and what does he do? Just use your best judgment. We trust you.