Ep011: Billy Madison + toilet training part 1

Billy, Legs 11, Episode 11, In the Bag, Billy Madison and Toilet Training. What are they going to learn this week? Yeah, well, it's hopefully an exciting chat about something every single kid's going to go through. We talk about kind of the theory and the developmental pathway that kids go through. So hopefully a good bit of awareness of what it's like for a kid and signs that they're ready, how to set them up to knock it out of the park.

Then you know how to respond if they're struggling a bit and we get to talk about the masterpiece that is Billy Madison. I've got to say, I also learned in this episode that I should start toilet training one of my daughters now who's just clocked over 18 months. Well, no, you can. You don't have to. You can. Yeah, I can. I can. And I'm at the tail end of toilet training with another one. So this is my sweet...

spot and i'm right in the middle of it so i appreciated it i think everyone's going to really enjoy this one so uh like share files on instagram five star rating if you want as well but thanks very much billy bye I'm Billy, a developmental paediatrician. And I'm Nick, a developing parent. We're going to use scenes from iconic movies to talk about how we best support our kids. This is Pop Culture Parenting.

Hey, don't let your mother smell happy air in your breath. She'll take it out on me. I didn't want to see you again for the rest of my whole life. I didn't want to see anybody outside. Just use your best judgment to be trusted. Good evening, Billy. Evening, Nick. How are you? Yeah, really good, thank you. Oh, really? That's good. Up and about. Yeah, up and about. Had a nice productive day and some good work.

Yeah, got some exercise in. So yeah, good. What about you? How's your day going? I ticked some of those boxes. I didn't tick many of them. I worked, got the job done, but I haven't exercised. And it was an okay day. Okay. Which might lead me into my Griswold. But you've had, before we go to that, you've had some wins exercise-wise, though. Me? Yeah. Been doing a bit of... I had been training a lot. Yeah. But I've now... You've had some wins on the mats as well, haven't you? Oh, I have not.

had many wins on the mats. No. No. You've got to celebrate the successes, Nick. I have not had any wins. I failed to... I failed to compete in the competition I wanted to compete in recently. But that's all right. There's plenty of time for all of that. I'm sure 99% of listeners have listened to every episode. Maybe, what do you enjoy doing fitness-wise? I enjoy doing jujitsu.

Actually, no gi jiu-jitsu specifically. It's a niche sport, but it's basically just like wrestling. It reminds me a lot of my youth, a lot like the films that we watch, Billy, where it's pretty much just wrestling. Some call it pajama cuddles. That's what I'm going to call it for now on this podcast. But no, look, I love doing it. And Billy's asking me if I've had any wins. There's a lot of competition in class, but I don't often come out on top. But that's right, it's all about participation.

But it's an interesting sport to start at the ripe old age of about 39 years old, which is when I started it. The body doesn't bounce back like it used to. No, but it's great though. I think that it seems to be a really strong thing for your mental health is getting and rolling around.

and all that stuff. It is. No, and my partner's actually gotten into it off her own bat. So she is trained with her sister as well. So both love it. We're actually going on holiday in a couple of weeks and we're going to go train at a school in another state.

Yeah, really. Yeah, that'll be news to the people I'm going away with. We'll be like, well, who will be looking after your children? We'll be like, I've got a favour to ask. Well, since it's coming, everyone's filling their diaries. And yeah, do you guys, Do you and your partner do pyjama cuddles together? Yes, we do. So we put the gi on. The gi just looks like a ninja movie. It's like a heavy linen thing on a canvas. Yeah, we do. We train. We try to train a lot together.

Yes, got the mat set up at the back and, yeah, we love it. It's good. It's good for both of us, good particularly for my partner who, yeah. She loves doing exercise and this is a good exercise for her for what she needs to do. And, yeah, it keeps you quite strong and it sort of teaches self-defense. Yeah.

Honestly, now we're getting into it. This started a couple of years ago and I was like, well, one, what could I do for many years to come? And two, I thought, oh, what would I, this is after I had one daughter. I thought, what would I might like her to have? And it might be some self-defense skills. So hopefully by osmosis, using that word, don't really quite know what it means. By osmosis, they'll sort of see us practicing.

And be like, oh, I'd like to learn some self-defense. Yeah. So that when she's 18, she goes, I want to go to somewhere on the other side of the world. I'll be like, okay. As long as you can take care of yourself, that'll be good. And I've seen your oldest has got some moves. She does. We do some kids drills at home. They're very fun. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's great. The reason I bring it up is because I think it's nice to talk about those things and what they are specifically for you because everyone's just like, oh, exercise is good for your mental health and it's kind of pretty generic. It's something that you and Henry really enjoy and that's a really cool reason to be doing it as well because I, you know, hopefully maybe to be something that the girls are interested in.

Yep. I really hadn't anticipated you asking about this at all. Oh, there's going to be lots of you haven't anticipated this episode. Oh, this is a great episode. Well, you brought this one to me. Yep.

And listeners. So this bumped up the list because listeners have been asking for it. But this is one you've been really interested in. Yeah, this is one I am really interested in. It is – how are we going to – this is Billy Madison, the movie. and this is toilet training. And I think I might have cut you off about how you've been on our Griswold, but I think it relates to the topic. It does relate to the topic. So, yeah, my Griswold this week. Let's just hear from Clark W. Hey.

Don't let your mother smell that beer in your breath. She'll take it out on me. For those of you who are new listeners, we do a Griswold and a Winslow each week, and this one is where I might have not been my best at parenting this week. So we're here to talk about toilet training this week and just experiencing some setbacks at home, setbacks that I hadn't anticipated. I have so many questions for you this week, Billy. Great.

Things I hadn't anticipated happening because such great progress at home with toilet training but have kind of gone backwards a couple of steps or sideways and it... I guess the griswold is that I can learn to react better. feel like yeah it's been complex because it's like oh should i just ignore it because it's such an anomaly because everything's been going so well but then a couple of things have kicked off and

It's been repeated a few times and I'm like, oh, I think my frustration probably shows a little bit. Like it's not too bad, but I feel like it does and that doesn't help the situation I expect and you're going to tell me that later and I'm going to feel really shitty about all of this. I will, but it's kind of trying to understand it all. So, yeah, I'm trying to get better with it. But that is my Griswold for the week, and I don't have a Winslow. I'm sure you do.

I've seen some windlies with you in the last week, just in you being really gracious with the girls. But, yeah, I think there's two things that you've said that kind of pricked my ears up. One of them is... Yeah, in lots of areas of development, just because you've achieved something doesn't mean you'll never fail at it again. Toileting, language development.

social development like all those things you can still regress back a little bit and kind of it's not a straight line yeah the other thing is that kind of you know it's it's not about well you did the wrong thing So, like, you should feel awful about it. It's about kind of, yeah, learning from those things and going, cool, did that help? Maybe not. So, you know, how can I have another shot at it? Yeah. Which is what we always talk about. Yeah. And just on it, like.

It's more I don't know where to go here. I'm not angry. I don't get angry. But it's like I try not to make a big deal of it. And it sort of persists and then I don't make a big deal, but I ask questions and I feel like I'm putting pressure. It's just...

It's a situation you're just not faced with. Yeah. Usually you can just be like, oh, I can resolve this and I'll fix this. It doesn't seem to be the way. So we'll get there, I'm sure. It's true, actually. You don't get angry. You just get frustrated. But I get angry. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's impressive that you don't get angry about that stuff. No, no, I mean that genuinely. Like it's, yeah, whereas I can get pretty fiery about stuff and I... you know i constantly remind myself like i my developmental training gives me a bit of a break sometimes in that we know when you're kind of really worked up or stressed or frustrated or whatever is a pretty hard time to be logical and think about stuff so i give all the kids that i see in support

like a break about that and try and help their parents understand but also just me with myself when i'm getting angry just go cool it's pretty easy 10 minutes later to go probably wasn't worth getting that worked up about it but um but yeah I guess kind of me, my Griswold.

There's been, you know, things have been pretty busy. There's a lot going on in the world and regions I work in at the moment. And I've kind of felt, you know, we talked about the shame and not shaming kids on a previous episode, but I felt a bit of shame and guilt about, you know, not giving. evie my you know attention and 100 of my focus with so much happening and um

Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of parents out there that feel like that and I've really felt like that. And, you know, I don't get any easier time with that because I know how important it is to engage her or anything like that and I can beat myself up about it. It kind of ties into my Winslow, which maybe... Can I press the button or is that going to... Well, it's my job, but yeah, okay. Hopefully I press the right one. I don't object to fun. I love fun. In fact, I...

I'm the grand funk master of fun. Feels pretty good hitting that button, doesn't it? It does, it does. And I actually had a bit of fun today, speaking of the Grand Funk Master of Fun, because a good friend who's got a son the same age as my daughter, so both 10 months.

It was just like, do you want to go hang out? And it was too cold to go to an outdoor pool. So I went to a playground and I'm kind of a bit embarrassed to say that at 10 months of age, it was the first time I've taken to a playground. So people might be like, oh, you don't take kids to playgrounds for years. It was actually awesome because there were other kids around and so she's like interacting with the big swing thing that they can sit on and not fall off and like in the sand pitch.

But I just saw how much she was watching other parents and, like, it was amazing because I was there with a friend and we got to talk and debrief and say stuff that's hard and have a bit of a laugh. But also just be around other parents and I think... You talked about osmosis before. I think there's a real osmosis of being a part of a community and seeing that other people struggle with stuff and how do other families handle it when kids fall over or fight over a toy.

It was really cool and that's like two blocks from my house. So I'm pretty keen to get back there. And it was really good at counteracting my Griswold because I... I kind of went there and didn't look at my phone. I didn't think about anything else. I was just talking to this other dad that I'm good mates with and focusing on our two kids and it was just, yeah, it's kind of easier to do that when you're not.

kind of at home sometimes I think totally cancelled it out yeah it's funny you do get well we've been stuck at home all that jazz for so long but also it's easy just to be like I've got all the stuff I need here for when it goes south

yeah i've got the bouncer i've got the thing and then you're like i don't want to go out so i'd have those things that was my attitude anyway i was like just the effort and then you get out and you're like far out yeah why didn't i do this and um i think when you've got someone

the kid the same age it just makes it so much easier there's so much so much stuff you don't have to explain you know like you hang out with people and they're like their kids might be like eight and they're like bounding around the way and you just feel like yeah Not tethered, but you're like, I can't move like that. I can't do that. Yeah. And then you're just like, oh, you're there with a person with another 10-month-old.

It's like you don't need to explain anything. Yeah, constantly having to break the conversation or stuff like that, totally. And we were even saying, like, isn't it funny that... I think there's some amazing mums groups, but I think dads are a bit hopeless at building communities around parenting, probably more in general just males. But it was, yeah, it was really cool. And we've talked about like different elements of this podcast, doing stuff in the community and, you know.

Always toyed with the idea of trying to set up a dad's group just about getting together regularly and kind of just being around each other and sharing experiences. Yep, that'd be good. But anyway, we could do that for ages.

Yeah, maybe the movie. Yeah, the movie Billy Madison, Adam Sandler in this film. First movie. First movie, pre-Happy Gilmore, which was probably the one I actually probably saw first and went back and re-watched this. This was 1995. It was 27 years ago. Yeah, wow. That is so long ago. It is long ago. That makes me feel old. I was in high school. Yeah. There was a young-ish Steve Paschimi coming off Reservoir Dog. Great scene. Great cameo. Yeah. Hilarious cameo. Saves the day.

Yeah, it does say that. Spoilers. Yes. But it was an interesting film. Chris Farley was great. I thought Adam had his moments, but it was a bit... Yeah, I didn't enjoy it. Look, I didn't love it. I think I loved it when I was younger. I'd probably connect with it a bit more, but now I'm like, ah, right.

Because he's evolved a lot. I like the stuff he does now. I love our cut gems and stuff. I thought he was great in it. There'll be a lot of listeners that think he hasn't evolved. He has evolved. It's not the same character. Some of his movies are terrible. Well, you know, there's a bit of continuity in characters through a lot of his movies.

Yeah, that character is really similar. Happy Gilmore, well, sort of similar. Well, yeah, a lot of his movies reference the O'Doyles, which I feel personally attacked. Me too, actually. Yeah, the bully redheads. Yeah, with freckles. Yeah. What's that? Do you know what I was reading about? They actually did a casting call for like trying to get people for those four roles of the O'Doyles. And they were just like, is there any kids with red hair that look mean?

I would have got the red hair bit, but I don't think I've ever looked mean in my life. I don't look too threatening. Yeah, so the O'Doyles go through a few movies. But yeah, Sandler's interesting. I'll talk in a bit about why I picked this movie. Because, yeah, it was a tough watch, especially for the first 15 minutes. But then there were some laughs and there was a lot of nostalgia. Like I know you had a lot of nostalgia with Ferris Bueller's Day Off, but I had it for this. Really?

Yeah, just because I haven't watched it in probably two decades. So, yeah. Did you know the female lead is... Pete Sampras' wife. Yeah, I do know that because I just told you. Just stealing a fact off you. Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's his wife. Yeah, and she was Miss Teen USA and she was 21 in the role, which is really young for like... I would have thought that young for Hollywood was like a lead role.

Yeah, yeah, true. But remember that this wasn't a big budget movie. It made like $60, $70 million. Wow, he does make money. Yeah, it was his first movie. Makes money. God, he's bankable. Well, that's the funny thing about Adam Sandler and it talks a little bit about our psychology.

So there's this amazing book called Everybody Lies and it's written by this guy who's a data analyst and he worked for Google a lot. And when Netflix first launched, I don't know if you remember this, but you used to like pick the movies you're interested in.

And so you'd go, cool, next time I get some time I'll watch Shawshank Redemption and I'll watch this French cinema and I'll watch this documentary. And they couldn't understand. People weren't going back and watching them and they're like, this is weird. And so then they dropped people choosing and they went, let's just see what they actually watch and then we'll build the algorithms based on that.

And Adam Sandler movies are what people actually watch, you know, and it probably talks a little bit about escapism and just turning your brain off and all that stuff. But he's so successful that he's got a $250 million movie deal for multiple movies with Netflix. So he's gone from kind of Billy Madison's not going to work. We'll only give you a little bit of cash. They brought in other writers because they didn't trust it and all this stuff. To now he's like hugely successful. Yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting movie. And the reason I picked it is because of a particular scene, but the actual whole theme of the movie is him, people who don't know, haven't seen it, not interested in seeing it, can't remember. he's essentially like this spoiled kid of a multi-millionaire who the dad wants to hand him over the company but he didn't really pass school so he has to go back and go through all the schools

And it's actually a really important part of toilet training is that you go through appropriate steps. So that's the kind of link to the movie. And then we'll also kind of talk about a particular scene that we've pulled which kind of looks ash. you know some really good stuff that adam sandler does yeah or billy madison does in the moment when a kid has kind of failed at you know being continent or not you know a successful toileting kind of thing so

That's kind of why I picked it. But, yeah, I did feel a little bit awkward watching it and there was a few laughs. But, yeah, it's funny these podcasters made watching movies a bit of a chore now. Yeah. I don't say too much to my partner who walks 14-hour shifts. This is really tough watching this film and hanging out talking to a mate. Can you give me some space? It's for the good of the community though. I'm trying to help. Look, I personally find him watchable.

Thought he was good in this, but an interesting rewatch. So we're talking about toilet training today, Billy. Yeah. So this is something that every parent goes through. I don't know anyone that's ever said, oh, my kid just started going and that was that. I know some go earlier than others, but this is what we're here to talk about today. I imagine there's going to be a lot of detail and steps and approaches here. I'm really curious to hear about it or the background around it.

Yeah, so this is, yeah, the reason that we've picked this topic is, yeah, you're going through it and families have been asking for it, but it is like, so we kind of go heavy topic, light topic, and this is a lighter one, but it actually can be the source of a lot of stress for families.

One of the most common reasons around toileting things is that people will see a GP or a paediatrician and say, look, this is not going well. There's a lot of miscommunication out there. There's some research that... I was reading that said, you know, there's over 6,000 websites that have information about how you should toilet train. It's probably even more just because that was a couple of years ago. And, you know, it's a big kind of...

It's a big part of childhood development. So I don't know if you remember, but in the autonomy and shame bit that toddlers go through where they either feel like they have autonomy and independence or feel shame.

Toileting is one of the first things where kids kind of make an active step towards being independent in their life. I kind of have control over this thing. And kids doing that successfully does have a big influence on kind of... big things like their self-esteem and how they feel about themselves but also practical things about like being okay when they start kinder in school and lots of kids will kind of still be struggling with toileting stuff in primary school

and so we see them clinically as well because it can really impact you know how their mates treat them and stuff like that yeah okay It's also like a really interesting thing culturally and you kind of joked about it and anyone that's gone through it without having issues. So from like girls will often achieve success sooner than boys.

There's a couple of reasons for that. They're a bit further developed in their maturity around social communication stuff, so signaling they need to go and all that stuff. They're usually better in their language development. Sometimes there's a bit of complexity around boys, and we'll talk about that practically.

So little boys should usually, it's much easier to teach them to sit down for everything. Whereas if you kind of go, you just need to do a pee, you stand up, it's kind of adds a step of complexity to it and can mean it takes longer. So those are the kind of two reasons that they'll struggle a bit more. There's also a really big cultural influence that's changed through time, but different cultures. And there's actually...

communities in East Africa and in Vietnam, actually, where they achieve toilet training by five to six months of age. What? Yeah. wild so what i don't say that for you or any listeners to feel like oh my god my child's three and i haven't figured it out and these guys do it's because the way that they raise their kids is different so those communities those kids will be on them the whole time and they get very good at realizing the cues that their child needs to go to the toilet from

weeks of age three to four weeks they start picking up like and then they kind of condition that kid to realize like when i get feeling like this i do this posturing or whatever and then the parent will you know appropriately have them somewhere

We as a society in Western culture, over the last few decades, kids are actually achieving success in toilet training later and later in their life. Like it used to be 18 months to two years, now it's kind of two and a half to three years and it's pushing back.

That's not because our kids are getting worse at things or, you know, not as smart or anything like that. It's just the world has changed and one of the big influences, kind of disposable nappies, have meant that it's much easier to kind of put that on the back burner a bit.

which is not inappropriate. And also like we've got a lot of parents both working, so it's much harder to focus on this stuff. And that's kind of all the experience that you're having as well is that both of you guys work full time. So it's kind of... Yeah, this interesting cultural impact and what's changed over time. Toledo is really funny because you can find these old texts from like 100 years ago.

that are just like you should start training your kid at eight weeks of age and you should have it all fixed by eight months and like that was the theory then there was it was really cool and then we kind of started realizing that shaming kids is not great but there was this big figure that came through called T, like the letter T for Tony or Anthony or whatever, berry, so berry the fruit, brazelton.

He's this American guy that was... Have you got a doctor with a name that's not memorable? Yeah, because who have we done? Tobias Wolfe. Yep. Montrose Wolfe, sorry. Montrose Wolfe. Yeah. Who was... The guy from Germany that moved over to America we did for Shane. Oh, Homburg. Homburg. Yeah, Homburg, the paediatrician. Yeah, that's so funny. I totally forgot about that.

Because Eric Erickson was adopted by him and he was like, didn't really relate to that guy. And also his kids would get sick of being called Homburg or Hamburger kids. So, yeah. But this... brazelton's amazing and it's actually he um passed away a number of years ago but there's a lot of footage of him talking about kids and

He really changed the way that we approach a lot of stuff, including toilet training, which I'll get to. But he was really about, like, it's not parents' fault. And he was about kind of respecting kids, including babies. And so he was one of the first. people that really talked about infant mental health and we should do an episode on that. For what health?

infant mental health really realizing that kids come into this world the moment they're in the world as people and we should respect them and try and learn how they communicate with us and it's amazing stuff that we'll do an episode on if people would like to hear about it But Brazelton was really, yeah, about kind of a different approach and he was prolific in kind of the 50s and 60s and 70s and he even got on Oprah, he got on Ellen, DeGeneres show, like...

Brousselton. Yeah, so he's my North Star. But he's... Yeah, he's just this amazing guy that had a really beautiful approach to respecting kids. I'm just thinking, like, you don't want to end up on, like, Jerry Springer or something like that. That's all right. I aimed for Oprah.

I landed. Sorry, I'm just thinking of like iconic 90s shows. Yeah, I know. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Ricky Lake. But he was really cool at kind of giving messages to the whole community instead of just sending kids one at a time. So that's why one of the many reasons that I... I really admire Brazelton and he was kind of really good about kind of explaining that. And he had a similar approach to toileting. So he kind of moved away from...

kind of this is the set time that you should do it. Time? Well, age, sorry. Yeah, kind of saying all kids need to have achieved by this. And he actually... developed what was called a child-led approach which is one of the two main approaches that we'll talk about which is really kind of recognising when the kid's ready and then going at the pace of the kid with specifically toilet training. I think you should always go at the pace of the kid with everything that you do.

when they're struggling. And this is a good example of one really specific example of that. Yep. Okay. So what is the typical approach for this then? So how... Well, if we think about it as a developmental achievement, it's a really important bit. Sorry, then. What else is a developmental achievement? To give me any context. Yeah, everything's a developmental achievement. Like walking is a developmental achievement. You know what I mean? You don't just get to the point where you can walk. Yep.

I think I've said this on a podcast, like there's this big developmental myth that time is what actually you need to learn how to walk. You actually need opportunity. It takes time for those opportunities to add up and toileting is the same.

You need opportunities to learn how to do it. We talk really, really broadly. There's two bits to learning how to successfully achieve toilet training. The first one is recognizing what's going on in your body as a kid. And the second bit is then learning how to actually use the toilet. So really kind of practical, you know, big bits. If we kind of break that down a little bit, there's kind of three components that happen.

in kids bodies the first kind of physiological bit is an awareness that i need to go to the toilet so you get the sensation of like you know i need to go and that goes through steps as well so i'm going to give heaps of stuff like this but i promise we'll try and make it clear, that body awareness kind of, you know, starts as just a general awareness that kids can't communicate. You've probably seen that in Freddie in just the way she postures, the face she pulls.

yeah crossing her legs i've seen it with her and other kids they like go to a corner yeah and you can just see it wearing a nappy or not you can yeah it's amazing how obvious it is yeah the posture is interesting So that's the first sign that a child is getting somewhere near being ready to toilet train. It's really important that we start in a positive way learning that they associate that as a normal feeling.

and that that might mean that you need to go to the toilet and then you don't go so go and sort it out you then realize there's heaps of steps and we're going to go through them the next step in an awareness is they start to communicate it but firstly it's always after it's happened I've had an accident. Yes. Or, you know, I'm dirty. Yes. Or whatever, I've done a wee, whatever it is. It's really important when you pick what the language is going to be as a family that it's not derogatory.

that it's not kind of something that they feel guilty or shameful about and that it's a normal kind of thing. And you can pick wee, poo, whatever it is, but consistency is important. But even more important than that is it's not something they feel like they've messed up. You've wet yourself. Yeah, exactly. So I'm wet, you know, whatever. The next bit is that they will then... Sorry, just on it. Like you wouldn't say you've wet yourself. It's like, oh, we've done a wee.

Is that what you should say? Yeah, you can, yeah. It's more important than the exact language is the way you said it. And actually you said both, like especially the second one that was kind of in a really open, gentle, neutral, you know, and we'll talk about that with the scene.

cool the next bit is realizing after is realizing before and they start to communicate that so they've realized before and they do the physical stuff then they communicate afterwards then they'll often communicate before you go sweet That's cool. You're feeling a bit of pressure, whatever it is. I'll help you and I'll support you go to the toilet. The next bit in an awareness is I need to go to the toilet. And then the final bit is they go to the toilet.

But those are five really distinct steps that catch them at the start bit and it's a long time, like months, between, you know, I... I make a funny face or position with my body when I feel like I need to go to successfully going. A lot of kids, that's months, and that's a realistic expectation. And we'll talk about some of the other theories out there and approaches that are a bit quicker. But that's a gentle, realistic approach is that that can take a long time. How long?

So, no, no, girls will often achieve it quicker, but it can be months and we'll talk about it a bit more practically when we get to that bit. But the important bit is that we don't rush it and put pressure on it because with almost everything with kids...

especially toileting, bedtime and meals, if you put pressure on it, things will go backwards. It's backwards. Yeah, so really important. Now, we talked about kind of what's happening in the body and awareness, and they also, with that awareness, need to learn how to hold it in.

And the kids pretty much can't figure that out until they're 18 months old. So expecting them to be able to hold something in before then, not a good idea. The next bit is kind of the developmental ability to be able to do the next steps. So they have to be able to communicate with you. Hey, I need to go to the toilet. So have the language ability. They need to be able to understand. Okay, let's go to the toilet together. Can you sit down there?

and then understand the wiping bit and all that. So they need to be at that level of ability. And then they need to be able to have kind of the physical abilities to do those things, to sit up on a chair, to hold their position.

We'll talk about some of the practical bits, which I'll get to, which is going to involve some tiger grouse, but I'll put that as a spoiler. And then you kind of understand that they've got the developmental ability. So we've talked about they've got the physiological ability.

to sense it and to hold it. Developmental ability to come and tell you and then go and do that, sit on the toilet thing. And then they have to have the behavioral kind of motivation. So people will jokingly say, keen to be clean.

but they're kind of interested in succeeding in that and they're showing interest in using the toilet. And you can start that like when you go to the toilet, you say this is, you know, this is a normal thing, this is where this goes, this is a part of the day and all that stuff. I'm sorry. This isn't one of those, wait till this happens. Wait till you get to it because you just have to go to the toilet while they watch.

it's what I've been like you're just like like can I what are you doing like and they can't even watch it like I've read the books they're like oh they might want to you know watch you know you go to the toilet it's

That's the point of that, though, is that you're normalizing it. So you do the same thing when you're brushing your teeth. You taught them to brush your teeth by showing them you brushing your teeth. Yeah. And so, yeah. Same thing. Obviously, you just go, this is where I go and do it. Yeah, totally. But also, at daycare, just to jump.

At daycare, there's like three toilets, stalls next to each other. There's no stalls and like, you know, they're just like little bowls. Yeah, yeah. So they just go in front of each other all the time. So it's actually... But it's a careful thing to not be like, I know you're not, but...

yeah do not put shame on kids around this stuff like it's a normal kind of thing but you're right and remind me because I've completely forgot to even think about daycare but it's a really important bit about toileting and setting kids up to succeed So, yeah, you can't make it. No, and we don't make it to boot. It's just for me, they're like, they just want to come and watch. And that's what kids do, I guess.

No, totally, but that's actually doing what I think is the right thing. There's no set way to do this. What we're just talking about is this is kind of the...

This is the kind of developmental theory and bodily parts under it. And then there's this kind of psychology behind it. So it's awesome to hear that. Yeah. I'm stumbling through it, mate. Mate, this is learning on the job 101. Yeah, definitely. This one. Yeah, that's why it's going to be good. I'm going to try and I've got a little bit more theory to get through. Then we'll go.

And then we're going to have a close look at some stuff and see. Yeah, cool. And you can test me. Oh, yeah. I'm going to test you. Because one thing I want to ask you about, and I'm not sure if it's good to ask you now or after the scene, regression. Or what can be deemed regression? Yeah.

regression perhaps going backwards after such a long time going forwards so yeah do you want to talk about that now or after yeah definitely like kids kids will regress kind of yeah in things where like what i was saying before it's not just because you've like you've learned to run and not fall over it doesn't mean you won't fall over again and the same with like

lots of abilities just because you've succeeded in being able to do that thing doesn't mean you won't ever stuff it up again and toileting is the same we've always got to think like what's going on like we do every single episode for that kid and if they're kind of consistently struggling with something that they've struggled with in the past that they've been successful with in the past yeah i'm just thinking you know

what's going on maybe they didn't actually nail it as much as i thought and we need to go back a step and that's what we're going to talk about we kind of already have like go back to where they're at all right but hold on just to be really specific here because it's kind of where i'm at like if a kid hasn't had a problem for about four months and then all of a sudden has had a chain of problems doing it, I wouldn't have anticipated that. No. But maybe you're telling me I should have.

No, no, that's common. So what we've, like the pediatrician in me wants to make sure that she's kind of, she's not constipated and like, we'll talk about all that. So there's kind of three reasons that kids either struggle. to succeed and they're delayed in it or that they go backwards. Yeah, we've got a bit – it's complex. So the reason I'm not – actually, I've got to be honest, I'm not as frustrated or angry. I am concerned, yeah, because –

I just feel bad about this. Like I don't think it's on my daughter. I think she had some problems early on, which I think is resulting in why this is now happening now. So she had like a... Small bowel problem, not a major issue, but at the time it was bad. And I think it's always been something she's been scared to go to do a poo or whatever, a backhoe, whatever.

But then how amazing that she has you and your partner as parents because you guys are amazing at being sensitive to that stuff and that's the important bit. Lots of kids will have fear, refusal, difficulties around this stuff. And we do not push them on it. Yeah, and it probably just brings back up something that was bad and we feel bad about it. Well, I know I feel bad about it. It's like sort of let her down because it's something that…

The important thing is you're aware of that and you're going to be sensitive to it and you go gently with her on it. So we'll talk about practically how to do that. But the three most common reasons. that kids are delayed in achieving toilet training is they're started late. So if you start them kind of well after two years of age, they're going to be less likely to pull it off quickly.

Because it's just a developmental window that is a bit easier around that time when they're ready and they just pick up the conditioning bit a bit earlier. They're constipated. So that's 10% to 30% of kids, heaps of kids. Heaps of people don't realise their kids are constipated. It's not always looks exactly how it is. And then the other thing is like about 20% of kids at some stage in their toileting will have refusal.

where they're like not using that potty. I'm going to go somewhere else. I will only do it in a nappy. Like I won't do it anywhere else. Like I won't go into that room, whatever it is. And that's a big chunk of kids. So like one in five kids. through toilet training. So it's really important when that happens, you go, cool, is my child actually ready for toilet training? And don't just go, I need to go harder at this because they're pushing me or they're refusing. So that's the thing.

Having trouble with toilet training has no link to kids having bigger problems. Like there is a really small amount of kids.

that have kind of difficulties in their development that also have toileting problems. But the vast majority of kids who struggle a bit with toilet training are... kids that don't have anything else going on so it's really important that people don't go oh my god my kid's four and hasn't figured this out or whatever it is because we know like just with wetting there's a lot of kids in primary school

So the easy stat to remember is 10% of five-year-olds will still wet themselves during the day and 5% of 10-year-olds will still wet themselves during the day. There's a lot of kids when you think about it. Yeah. There's a lot of kids. Kidding every class. Yeah.

So 10% of kids who are five, 30 years off that. So how do we kind of think about those kids? And it's really important. And maybe now is a good bit to go into the two main types. Sure. Then we'll go scene and we'll go, you know, there's a bit of stuff. Let's do it.

So the two kind of main types of the main one is child led, which is Brazelton, you know, the guy on Ellen and Oprah. And he was really about kind of waiting at least until kids 18 months before. you're doing anything, they show you a sign that they're ready and then you go really gentle. And he was pretty like prescriptive with it. He'd say like show them the potty, they just sit for ages on the potty clothed and then they try sitting on the potty.

without, you know, a nappy on. If there's any use there, you celebrate the sits with closed, you celebrate the sits with a nappy off. If anything happens, you celebrate it. If there's an accident, you take it to the potty or the toilet. And you don't kind of get angry about stuff. This kind of punitive discipline stuff doesn't really work in most areas, but definitely not in this area because it kind of fits into that shame.

Yeah, but also like toileting, diet, sleep. Kids are very sensitive because they pick up us being like... man, I really wish you could figure this out. And so they go, cool, my guard's up now as well and all that stuff. So it's really hard. The good thing is that's fine. Like kids will, as long as you journey with them and are sensitive to that need, it's really important.

So that's kind of Brazelton's child-led approach. Then after him, there was these guys that actually started looking at adults with disabilities and stuff about what's a quick way to achieve it. And there was this book that came out that was like... toilet training in a day or something. And that kind of got put into category of what's called parenting-led approach and people have done some research on it with kids, you know, that are around this age.

And what they do, which I don't really think is the right way, but it's important that it's kind of talked about because these are the two dominant theories that actually have some evidence. is that they kind of get the kids to drink a lot of water and then they just have a routine sitting. So multiple times a day the kid sits down and then when they actually go to the toilet on there, you go, yeah, superstar, that's amazing.

The risk in that approach is that you kind of, you know, take away the reinforcement when they have an accident and that's really hard to do without being detrimental to that kid and not kind of... being punitive and things like that so my preference is always the kind of brazilton gentle approach and that's kind of you know we'll talk a bit more about the nuts and bolts of how you do it but i think it's important with things like this that every single kid is going to go through

is to understand the developmental process that kids go through and then some of the theory about effective ways to achieve successful, sustainable toilet training. I hope that made sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep, two major theories. Yeah, I get it. So I wonder if, yeah, I reckon we go to the scene now because, as always, I've been talking for ages. Just to set the scene because people might not remember the movie or have seen it.

So they're on like a school trip. School trip. Yeah. School trip out for the day to a farm. Ernie, who is Billy Madison, so Adam Sandler's little friend who's in grade two together. They're in grade two together. He has an accident. And the scene we're listening to, which you can see on our Instagram page if you want to go and have a look at it,

Ernie's actually sort of hiding away, shying away from Adam with his back turned to him and then he reveals that he has had an accident. And then what, yeah, you don't hear it that well, but... Adam Sandler goes and wets his own pants to show that it's okay. To make it look like he has also had it to help his friend Ernie. We've kind of just explained it, but listen to it. It's a fun little scene and it's quite endearing of him.

Hey Ernie, what's up? Nothing. You falling in love with the wall or something? I had an accident. You had an accident? What does that mean? GOO! oh I know okay ah don't worry buddy you hang tight I'll be right back He really peed his pants. Of course I peed my pants. Everybody my age pees their pants. It's the coolest. Really? Yes! You ain't cool unless you pee your pants. Wow. Ernie pees pants too! Alright! If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

That was the grossest thing I've ever heard in my life. Let's go! I forgot about the little old lady at the end who's incontinent. So that's different to what we're talking about. We don't have an adult podcast. We're not there yet. Do you reckon we'll have one one day? Yeah, I'm planning on doing this for the next 60 years. On being an adult? So the girls will have got sick of us by then. I know. We can just talk about your listeners a lot to hear us going through the aging process.

Might not be a good one to get our partners to listen to every week though. No. I'm sure they'll be sick of hearing it in real time. 60 years of listening to you and me every week? Yeah, surely. surely it'll be good fun but no so this is interesting pop culture reference this kid was like this was the peak of his acting career and he stopped acting after this really yeah probably

Probably not a bad choice, really. I thought he was all right. No. I mean, just like you never hear of, you rarely hear of great child actors like going on and developing well. So maybe he made the right choice. Yeah, true. He seems very happy. Like he's talked about being in this movie as an adult and how it's still a part of his life. And yeah, he talks about how great like Chris Farley and Adam Sandler were and like as a kid, which is really cool because one thing about this movie...

Like you can look at it and go, God, his voice is annoying and the jokes are so stupid and stuff. The kids are having a ball. I don't know if you noticed that. They're having a great time. Like every time he graduates a class, they have a party at his house. Yep.

And he really gets into it, like when he's sitting on the mats with them. Yeah, a lot of improv, I reckon. So they would have just been like, Adam's just going to do stuff, you know, and he's going to act silly and just laugh at what he does. Sort of thing. And he does some stupid stuff with kids, but he actually is quite respectful and gentle of a lot of the kids in the movie. And like Eric is one of them in this scene, obviously.

But yeah, it's really nice to see him just like there's the bit where he goes to high school and then comes and visits the primary school again. And they're like, what's high school like? pretending that it's fine but then the kid's like i can't wait and he's like never leave which goes to our last episode about you know struggling with transitions and

struggling to attend school. So, you know, he's gone back to high school and remembers being the cool kid, but he's actually not anymore. He's not cool. Yeah, he's not cool. So, yeah, the thing that he does really well in this scene...

is that he doesn't shame or kind of belittle or make fun. Like he has the knee-jerk kind of response. But then instantly he's like, I want this kid to feel okay about this accident that he's had. Yep. And that's exactly what people should do.

Like don't make kids feel bad about it and don't kind of, you know, when they have an accident, like when they accidentally go in their pants or their... nappy or their bed or whatever it's really important that we show kids it's okay and that's what he really does he just goes a little bit far because he celebrates it so much that all the kids beat themselves and that's the sweet spot between

Not going, that's amazing, you've had an accident. Going, it's actually okay, you've had an accident. It's kind of a normal thing. And so he goes just a bit too far. But I'd rather he went that way, to be honest, than he made Ernie feel bad about it. The thing about Ernie is what might be happening is that he didn't have a successful kind of journey through toilet training. Wow. Yeah, so he's kind of in that kind of 5% of kids that are wetting themselves during the day.

And he might have something going on with his bladder, but he also might just wet himself frequently. and kind of has because he never kind of got that kind of gentle, you know, Brazelton child-led approach. Yeah, okay. So we're kind of seeing that impacting and if it wasn't for Billy Madison or Adam Sandler. that might have impacted how his peers seem. But he's kind of swung in and made sure that his peers don't kind of belittle him. So, yeah, great save. And it's kind of...

Yeah, so I really like this scene for just how instantly he thinks of Ernie and swings in for him. So it's... The movie kind of shows you the progression through school, just like there's a progression through toileting that we've talked about. The scene shows you a really important bit around toileting, which is it's actually okay to have mistakes. And I know that you're really good with that.

with Freddie about this, that it's okay. And it can be still frustrating for you. Yeah, it's frustrating just because I almost feel, I think there's a bit of guilt about just letting her down a bit. seriously that's it and it sounds like i'm like trying to be a good dad no it's not really like ah what have we you know if i've done something along the way that wasn't right or we've ended up here because she had some um physical problems early on and um yeah that's more it

And just like also don't know how hard to correct. And I don't mean like, sorry, like obviously you've just told me all these things about how not to do it. And I don't think we do it that way, but it's like how much do you just go? It's a once off. Like don't give it too much air. Do you know what I mean? Like as in don't make a big deal out of it. We don't have to go back to square one because I've been cruising for months. Yeah. And I mean months, months and months.

But when it goes backwards, you're like, I kind of usually stuff like this, I'm like, who cares, like one off and then it kind of happens a bit for quite a few days in a row and you're like, huh, don't really know what to do here. No, totally, and we should talk about that. You can't solve it. No, no, no. This is a great practical example, and I'm hoping that stuff between this episode and the reflection, we get people going, yeah, all that theory sounds great on paper.

but actually this is what's going on for me and we'll talk to that because that's what we want from listeners. We want, yeah, cool, Billy, it's great that your approach is gentle and you're thinking about the kid and all this stuff, but we're drowning here with this.

So this specific thing, and then we'll talk about it in the reflections. And this is a great example of we were knocking it out of the park. It was doing really well. We're going backwards. And just on that, you did help me knock it out of the park to start with where we had the chart. So we had the poster.

Beautiful segue into like how you set it up. So we'll talk about that. We'll talk about setting it up, case of success, and then we'll talk about when things aren't working. So the setup is important that we talk about like what's the right time. Now the right time is all the stuff we talked about before of like...

They do the posturing. They can tell you they're aware, they're motivated. They can see all the stuff we've already talked about. But then it's actually got to be the right time for you guys as a family. So it's not kind of when we're moving house, we're both working full time and we're really getting pumped. Like we're really stressed. We don't have time for this stuff, even weather stuff. Like a lot of families will wait until it's warmer months for this stuff. Yeah.

which is totally understandable, but you've got to kind of be set up and make sure that it's the right time for you, not just the right time for the child. And that's really important. It's more important than kind of, nah, we want it sorted before we go overseas on this trip. or for kinder or whatever. That's a really important bit of it. And it's really important that you have a really good plan about what it's going to look like.

And I can, there's heaps of different ways. The one that you've done has what's called a token economy in it. So that's what a star chart is. It's a token economy. So it's an economy of you get this for this. It's token because you're not like... You know, you went to the toilet, in the toilet we're going to dream world.

So it's like, you know, because it needs to be more about celebrating the success in the task they're trying to achieve than I give you this for doing that. So that's kind of more bribery than rewards. It's a fine line.

The bit about the star chart as well, those things, is that it clearly shows everyone the plan. So it's not, it's like, this is it. It's really clear language. It's not like this sits in your room and you look at it and you study it and you figure it out on your own. It's like, cool, this reminds all of us.

how we're doing this. Yep. And it's probably more for you and Henry than it is for Freddie because it makes sure you guys are as consistent as you can be. This is what we do. Now, some people will say, cool, what we do is...

We do a sit within 20 minutes of every meal because we know there's like a biological reflex that goes through their body. And we sit them down. We sit them for a couple of minutes, never more than that. Yep. So you can't make it a place. You sit there until you go to the toilet. No.

You sat there for a couple of minutes and you can bounce on out now because you did it and you're a superstar. Because if you sit them there for ages and make it awful, they'll never go in there and they'll be like, I'm not breaking away from the TV to go and do that sit thing because you make me sit there for ages.

If you can, it can't just become a chair though. So you go, cool. After a meal, we sit there and that's where the tiger growls come in or kind of blow up a balloon or whatever. Yeah, explain that. Because people might not know what the hell you're talking about. Yeah, so the tiger growls, we haven't actually got the YouTube up yet, but the tiger growls are like literally, you know, growling. And especially little boys love doing that. But what it shows is like tensing.

your abdomen and then trying to get that control of kind of your bladder and your bowel so they open up. Yep.

Some kids will do that in all different ways. Some people say like blow a balloon or do different things. And what that's kind of learning is what are the things that make it happen. It's like this is... really practical stuff but they've got to have their feet on their ground so that's why the potty can be good to transition or they can go straight to the toilet but you've got to have them set up so feet on the ground legs are straight so knee to hip is straight

So they can't kind of be – their knee can't be lower than their hip is what I'm trying to point to. Right, gotcha, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they've got to be sitting in the right position and it can't be torture. They can't sit there for ages and be miserable because you're telling them, mate, you're there until you go to the toilet.

So they bounce out of it and you celebrate it. Now, whatever you celebrate, whether it's a star or a marble, a high five, you know, a chance to play you on the PlayStation, whatever, that is... One unit of it and then a bigger unit of it, two stars or whatever, is you've succeeded in it. Yep. Probably the most important thing is that you try not to make it a stressful environment, which is really easy to say, really hard to do.

because the kids will often not – stress is not a time where any of us learn, but especially kids trying to acquire a skill. So, you know, you don't put kids on a bike and go, oh, God, I hope you don't fall. Like, there's a car coming. Like, you know, but do your best to not fall down. But, oh, my God, you know what I mean? Like, you go, mate, you're going to be awesome at riding a bike.

This is cool. I'm here. There's training wheels. It's all going to be fine. It's a flat road. There's nothing else that's going to happen. So try as much as possible to replicate that into things that are potentially more stressful like toileting. And if any sign of fear.

Any sign of I'm stressed about this, I don't want to sit in that room, I don't want to sit on that potty, I don't want to do it, and there's a fear bit of it, you back right off because that stuff really quickly becomes refusal. So you just go, mate, it's cool.

Especially if you're like, no, I want to do it in a nappy in the living room or in my bedroom or whatever. You go call it to her right now, but you know what happens? Like we then get in a nappy and we put the... poo in the toilet yeah yep done that yep we go and do that it's the same if there's an accident if there's an accident and they wet the bed overnight or something like that go it's cool mate let's figure let's fix this together so there's no like punishment

But you also, they are a part of the cleanup process because that motivates them a bit. They go, man, I know this is normal, but man, it sucks at two in the morning having to change the bed.

And they go, cool. And then you set them up to succeed at it. But you go, you kind of help me. We help each other succeed at this. And that's really kind of important. And so those are kind of like just some of the... practical ways that you set up kids to succeed in this whether you use pull-ups is you know up to you whether you'd go potty first and then transition one thing i will say is like some families will say i'll just let kinder sort it out and i think that's a bit of a stitch up

Like I think a lot of kids will struggle to do it there because it's heaps of their peers and stuff like that. Some of those things that kids will do well in that environment because they'll try new foods because they're like the other kids are eating apples. I'll try it.

Maybe they will use the toilet because other kids are doing it and stuff, but it can make things a little bit less likely to succeed putting them in an environment like that and going, that's where you're going to learn. And also it's kind of really hard on the educators for that to be their environment.

a child kind of goes backwards, you know, and consistently backwards, you just look at it again and go, cool, what's our plan? Have we gone off track a bit? Are they a bit anxious about this? Like how do we reframe? Go cool, where's the kid at? So they're telling us but they're having accidents or they're not telling us and they're having accidents. Let's go back to the bit about.

Like trying to pick up the signs earlier, building a storage, you reckon you need to go really gently going if they can. See, it's well done, you did really well. It doesn't actually matter that you had an accident straight after it. Some kids will see. get off the toilet and that's when they go and that's fine but that's often a step that kids will go through where they will do it right after they've had the sit where the plans sit and then afterwards they'll you know go and that's

It can sometimes be why it's good to transition once they've had a fair bit of success, transition them out of the nappies because then they kind of are more likely to keep succeeding in that. Not all kids. So just go back to where they're at when they've fallen back a bit. and go, cool, that's where you're at. Really sensitively look for refusal and fear and a bit of anxiety and go, cool, back off, give a bit of time, come back in.

Clear plans, the right time. We're all in the right frame of mind. This is exactly what it's going to look like because we've got a chart in the kitchen. This is where we're going to go and we're going to go back to that bit. Yeah. That's kind of what I think. And it's kind of like... so many steps in this stuff that it's hard to kind of be like cool these are the key steps but you know what seems to really work if we just think generally about this stuff

And, you know, maybe this is kind of more of a wrap-up point and we'll get into some of the challenging bits in the reflection is like be as consistent as possible with whatever the approach that you pick is because kids are more likely to understand what the expectation is.

if you're consistent. It's also really good being consistent to setting up habits. So that's the best way to get kids to learn to brush their teeth. It just happens every morning and night. Yep. You know, this just happens after every meal. And then you get the hang of it. Kids, as they get older, will have less frequent bladder and bowel motions because their capacity gets better and their transit time through their bowel gets longer.

but you want to set them up so that they're kind of succeeding. And when they get really good at it, you can kind of step away from the routine sitting. But really important, the routine sitting is a couple of minutes. And a lot of kids, they'll often have an accident when they're doing something they enjoy.

because they just ignore the cue in their body that goes, I've got pressure on my bladder, I better go to the toilet. Okay, I don't care. I'm watching, you know, bluey. So understanding that, you know, those times are probably good times. And same when they've just woken up. If they wake up and they're dry.

Go, cool, let's go do a quick sit, you know, because they've obviously achieved holding their bladder overnight. But as they go and do something, they might have an accident because they go and have cereal and watch, you know, Peppa Pig. So go, actually, before we do that... Because you've been awesome. You just wake up dry. You're a superstar. Let's have a quick sit and just see if you need to go. Two minutes, bang, you're off.

Yeah, some of that tactical stuff I think is going to be really important. I think my week of reflection is going to be well applied here more than others. I think some of those ones are really good.

Yeah, so you've got so many important roles on this podcast and one of the big ones is holding me accountable to saying this in a way that's realistic and makes sense. And you've got an amazing experience as a dad and I think you've got a really cool approach to it as well. You've got a really positive approach.

which is another key part of success in toileting is be positive about it. You know, you don't be like, you have to sort this out or I can't believe you're still wetting yourself or anything because those kids just go backwards. Well, yeah. I think it was the last thing you actually said that was almost.

probably for me, everyone's going to have different things out of this, but it was almost the most useful it's like. Because right now I'm just addressing things when they go bad. What you gave me there at the end was. like they might come home from daycare and be like, you didn't have any accidents today. So great. Let's go try now. Like it just also puts it in front of mine as opposed to trying a lot of other tactics at the moment. But that proactive one like that.

hasn't been one of them. So that's a good one. And yeah, remember it's a skill. It's a skill learning how to use the toilet properly and like to first be knowing it's right in the body and that's what the feeling is and then actually practically how do I use the toilet is a skill that we don't celebrate enough. We celebrate like walking and talking.

You know, you can throw a ball and you can ride a bike and all that stuff. It's really important during that window, often through toddler period, we celebrate it as a skill. Completely. I agree. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? You should. Yeah, I can't tell how serious you're being, but yeah, celebrated is a skill, not something every kid should be able to do. No, no, no, no. I know you're not doing that, but yeah. No, no, I was just thinking back to the Billy Madison scene where he's like... he's like enjoy it here like enjoy this moment this moment's a good moment so getting it done actually i'm serious you've got to celebrate it because i think you've got to

reinforce it so that's actually a massive win as a family as well yeah and people tell me about that moment like oh it's our last nappy you know and you're like oh i can't imagine it like Well, huge step towards independence as well. Huge. Getting rid of change tables and things. Like I've got a one-year-old, but it's like these are things that don't come back into your house. Yeah. It's the stuff that is a long way away for me.

I can see the joy in it because I'm sort of getting nearish to the end of it, right? Like I'm moving through it. I can sort of be like, oh, imagine getting rid of that furniture and not buying those nappies and not taking out that bin. and not having to do some of these other things. It's just, yeah. Yeah, special shout out to any listeners who use like reusable nappies because, wow. So I went in with that intention and then did some reading.

I thought, oh, my God. So, yeah, just a special shout-out. You just made me think of taking out happy bins and thinking, God. Yeah, so, and I think that's kind of – Yeah, look for the positives. Don't battle kids on it. You know, the kind of medical doctor in me wants to say, like, really look out and make sure because we miss heaps of kids with constipation. So just thinking about maybe we'll put up some info or do another thing on, like, how do you spot constipation?

constipation but kids shouldn't be straining they should be having a bowel motion that's easy to pass that's kind of not too well formed every couple of days at least and you know making sure that you're just thinking about that and the Three big times when kids get constipated are when they start solids, so whenever that is, around six months, when they do toilet training, and when they start school.

So this is one of the big periods where kids are vulnerable to become constipated because they start holding. They go, yeah, I'm not going to the toilet. That's a big deal. Everyone's stressed about it. I have accidents. I'll just hold it in all the time. and then they'll become constipated. So kind of it's just the doctor, doctor, like medical person in me just wants to say like look out for that and catch it early. You are a doctor. I'm a doctor. That's a little bit of what I am.

Well, just a lot of this stuff is kind of more developmental theory stuff, which is really cool. And I kind of enjoy it way more than the kind of what's the cause of that cough stuff. But constipation is kind of really in my wheelhouse because we see heaps of kids, up to 30% of kids.

It can be hugely detrimental, constipation. It can be really painful and all those things impact diet. And, you know, kids who have kind of encopresis where they kind of, you know, they soil themselves because they're constipated. God, that's a hard spot to be in at school. We see a lot of kids in primary school in our clinics that are soiling themselves.

Yeah, I just want to catch those kids early and when you're taught training is a bit of a vulnerable spot. So, you know, good fibre diets, good fluid intake and just look out for it. Yep. I will. I will.

Yeah, thank God. There's so many things to apply this next week. But that's good. It gives me a good focus for the next bit. Yeah. I think for the past couple of weeks, I've been like, ah.

I can't do that yet. My kids are too young. Yeah, totally. We're swinging in and out of stuff that suits us and where our kids are at and all the stuff for older kids. But really important this time that people send in specific... feedback and questions so it's really great for people to go it's awesome and i'm a fan and that makes our day every single time we see us so it really does make our day does but you know it's really good to think about like i've got this situation what do you reckon

And we'll talk about it in a reflective episode next. Yeah, and the best way to do that is via Instagram at this stage. It's where we get the messages through and also via email. So don't be shy to email us at popcultureparenting at gmail. You will have also noticed that we've gone live on Facebook and YouTube this last week. Just, well, maybe not go to YouTube yet, but Facebook is far more vibrant.

YouTube's going to get there. Yeah, that's my job. That's why it's not there yet. When? On the record as soon. Fair enough, Billy. Another episode where I sit silently and then ponder on questions and think about what the heck I'm going to do this week. So you're always making me think, so I appreciate that.

and uh helping me improve so thanks for being open and honest about sharing your experience hopefully that really helps listeners realize that this isn't textbook stuff like kids just don't step through this perfectly yeah that's the point like trying to be honest about it and um

Yeah, this one, yeah, is a challenge. So just trying to work on it and work on myself getting better at it. But looking forward to reflective practice, looking forward to getting some DMs from people particularly on this. But thanks very much, Billy. Appreciate your time. No problem. Thanks, Nick. I don't want to see you again for the rest of my whole life. I don't want to see anybody else either. Who is your daddy? What does he do? Just use your best judgment.