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Welcome to another very special series of Inside the Room with Ed Balls and George Osborne. Yeah, we're excited to be back with another Inside the Room where we invite some of the biggest characters in British politics in recent years to take us behind the scenes of the moments that have really...
mattered in our recent history. And today we're going to do something different. We're going to take a look at what it's like to be a new prime minister, because of course, Britain has got itself a new prime minister this year, who's now nearly six months into the job. So we thought...
Who do we know who can give us an insight into the challenges of what it's like in those first hectic months in Downing Street? So over the next three episodes, we're going to go inside number 10 with former Prime Minister David Cameron. David, it's fabulous to have you here in the studio. Well, great to be with you.
Well, David, here we are together in a podcast studio. But 14 years ago, we were in Downing Street together. And those are the events we're going to take you back to right now. May 2010. That's where we're going to start. Now, of course... We've actually covered the first few days after the 2010 election in our Inside the Room series about the coalition talks. And if you haven't listened to that, here is your moment to do so. But we're picking this up as...
you, David, become prime minister. And the exit poll is predicting a hung parliament with David Cameron, the leader of the single largest party. With the outcome of the general election... We find ourselves in a position unknown to this generation of political leaders. Whichever party gets the most votes and the most seats, if not an absolute majority, has the first right
to seek to govern either on its own or by reaching out to other parties. As the day moved on, the corridors of Westminster rang with the rumours that a deal was close. And it was. Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form a new government and I have accepted. That Prime Minister Cameron walking there with Deputy Prime Minister Clegg and here they come looking as if it was the most normal thing in the world.
And you still have to almost pinch yourself that this is actually happening. Nick and I wanted to put aside party differences and work together in the national interest. Until today, we were rivals. and now we're colleagues. Prime Minister do you now regret when once asked what your favourite joke was you replied Nick Clegg and Deputy Prime Minister what do you think of that?
We're all going to have. I'm afraid I did. Even the Queen hasn't reigned over a coalition government before, but she won't be fazed. My government's legislative programme will be based upon the principles. of freedom, fairness and responsibility. Questions to the Prime Minister? Mr Speaker, I'm sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the soldiers who've died in Afghanistan in the last week.
So after the disappointment of the exit poll, denying you a majority, and then the coalition talks, you finally, on the 11th of May, you get into Downing Street. How are you feeling that day? Well, sort of relief in some ways, because it was a very strange few days after the election where you just didn't quite know what was going to happen. I remember one minute.
going back to the office and saying to everybody, right, I think the deal's going to be done. I think we're going to be moving into government. And then it seemed to go the other way. And I remember saying, no, no, put the pictures back on the walls. We'll be staying here. So it was very uncertain. And then it happened very quickly. The last minute, we were still negotiating.
the coalition suddenly gordon brown appeared on the steps of number 10 and was resigning and suddenly had to ring samantha and said you know get a frock on we're going to the palace right now he was telling the palace i'm going And the palace was saying, no, no, you've got to stay. David Cameron and Nick Clegg need more time. And Gordon was saying, I'm really sorry. I'm out of time.
I'm done. I feel great sympathy with that, not least because I've been saying that, you know, he shouldn't cling on and we'd won the election as far as I was concerned. We'd, you know, got over 300 seats or whatever it was and we're clearly the leader. So then it happened very suddenly. So there was this sort of slight sense of relief that, you know, it was, the waiting was over. And then this very strange meeting with Her Majesty the Queen because, you know, we hadn't finished negotiating.
And so I said, I'd be delighted to form a government, but I can't tell you right now what sort of government it's going to be. I hope it's going to be a coalition government. And the Queen sort of saying, well, you know, perhaps you'll come back and tell me when you've sorted it out. And I sort of thought as I left.
Buckingham Palace is like, but she's never had that conversation before, neither had I. Anyway, and then we fixed the coalition relatively quickly after that. Do you ever have a sort of... Out-of-body experience I sometimes had in politics when I was sort of standing outside number 11 with my budget box. I was thinking, my God, I'm actually standing outside number 11. Did you ever, when you were meeting the Queen and, you know, forming a government or when you arrive in...
Downing Street and you stand outside the steps of number 10 that evening, giving that speech. Do you ever think, my God, here I am doing this. I can't believe it. That whole day, I felt like that. Particularly getting in the car and going up the mall to Buckingham Palace. That is, you just, you can't, although you've...
tried for five years to get into the position, being leader of the opposition, where you're going to be prime minister, you can't actually believe it's happening. And it is rather an out-of-body experience. And you almost want to sort of push pause on the video of life so you could sort of step outside.
and have a look at what you're doing. You can't really believe it. But then as soon as you start thinking like that, you think, okay, I've got to go and see the Queen. I've got to say the right thing. I've got to go to Downing Street. I've got to make a speech outside number 10. You sort of kick back into...
I mustn't screw this up, I've got to get this right. So you stop sort of thinking about this out-of-body experience. Although things were in turmoil compared to how you must have expected. I've always thought that if you are leader of the opposition... that you will spend some months before the general election thinking, if I win, what words am I going to use in Downing Street? And we all remember Margaret Thatcher quoting the prayer of Francis of Assisi. But for you, I guess...
If you had written your words, suddenly they weren't really the right words anymore because you had this coalition to deal with. Yes, I think that's right. I mean, I think the counter to that is, you know, I've been leader of the opposition for five years. And we, you know, when you're leader of the opposition, of course, every day you're waking up. up thinking, how do I beat Tony Blair at Prime Minister's Questions, or how do I...
Also, you're having to think, what would I actually do? What is the plan? What will we try and get fixed? So you've got a whole set of things you want to get done, even if you haven't fixed the words you'd say outside number 10, because you're quite superstitious about that sort of thing. You've thought a lot about... the other things you want to do. I do remember coming into Downing Street that night. It was dark. We were exhausted. And then suddenly we go into...
In fact, into the room in number 12 where Gordon Brown had been. And there were the civil servants who had just been working with him. But there were also all these empty seats. And they, of course, had been filled by the Labour team. It's just a reminder of the brutality of the transition of power in Britain. It takes place in minutes.
Not in days or weeks, unlike, for example, in the US. And I guess, you know, what's extraordinary getting us three around this table, Ed, is that you had been in one of those seats. You had been in Downing Street the same day, just earlier in the day. with gordon brown and for you it was the end of an era and end of a long period in government uh quite different from us because for us it was the beginning of our time in government no i totally remember that i remember the
The pizza boxes when we arrived that, you know, people have obviously been ordering some food and eating it. And also as you come in and you're famously clapped in and you walk through that door and it's an amazing moment and there's...
Gus O'Donnell and all the people waiting for you. But, you know... half an hour earlier many of them would have been in tears as the previous prime minister left so it is extraordinary feeling and i remember you're right going into the bit where i think gordon sat in number 12 in a sort of
Horseshoe. Horseshoe arrangement and going in there. And, you know, you could almost sense that just a few, you know, short, short, short minutes ago had been occupied by a completely different team of people. It's true. How did it feel for you? Well, I went straight off and did media. And if you remember, there was those amazing pictures of him.
with Sarah and the two boys walking down Downing Street. And that was the first time they'd ever allowed the children to be seen in public. And, you know, you kind of looked at it and thought, you know...
if only he'd shown a bit more of that humanity. But we'd all sat around for hours before, we'd all been summoned over, and it was a very strange gathering of people, because Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson, people who at different times had been rivals, or where there'd been tension, everybody was actually together.
It was this sort of wake and we all told Gordon's old jokes because we had to fill the time because we were waiting for your talks to get on. And Nick Clegg was on the phone with Gordon and we all listened to these calls. But in the end, you know. Everybody I think knew it was done. It was over. It was gone. And it was just a matter of time. And we all wanted to get out.
I think it was Nick Clegg that wanted more time because, of course, he knew that he wanted to get as many details of the deal done before I'd actually become prime minister. But I would like to ask you about your mindset because, you know, you famously said, you know, when asked whether...
you were ready, or why you wanted to be Prime Minister, you said, well, because I'd be good at it. I never said that, actually. It's one of those famous things. It was a Charles Moore interview, I think, in The Telegraph. And it's one of those ones where at the end of it, he posits that that's my view.
and then it was repeated forevermore that I'd actually said that. But I don't think I ever said those words. It's the truth. Well, that's very kind of you to say it. It's been written down too many times. I mean, there was this view that, you know...
your family, your upbringing, your schooling, your education, you know, being a conservative. You kind of were ready to govern that you thought you should govern. I never felt like that. I mean, in many ways, hopefully George will back me up on this. I felt... slightly like the outsider because, of course, in the Tory party, in the leadership election in 2005, I was the...
the least experienced, much the youngest. And the rank outsider in the context. The rank outsider and also the modernized. So the person who's saying, no, no, all these things are going to have to change. So I always, you know, my mindset was much more.
I want to change the Conservative Party because it's not doing a decent job being a proper opposition and challenging for government. And if that works, then, you know, there's a chance of... David, you also had an opinion throughout your time. You had a... I mean this in the best sense of the word.
a ruthless streak, which was here's the opportunity. Here's the opportunity for me to become the leader of the Conservative Party. Here's the opportunity to destroy Gordon Brown. Here's the opportunity to do the deal with Clegg to get myself into number 10. And then you're there. No, I'm not. I accept that you have to have a ruthless streak in politics. Are you feeling at ease? I suppose the very first moments you walk through the door.
Quite a lot is done to sort of make you feel a bit at ease, the welcome from the cabinet secretary. He passes you the phone. It's Barack Obama on the telephone going, I remember exactly what he said. Well done, David. Enjoyed this moment. It's all downhill from here. So thank you very much. And so the first moments that obviously, you know, seeing George and William Hague.
Because we were such a tight team, the three of us. And I've still got that sort of picture. We've all got a photo, which actually is in your autobiography, but we all have that photo at home. So the three of us looking exhausted.
But elated. Exhaustible elated. So the very first moments, I don't think it eases the right sense, but there's a sort of sense of, oh, you know. The relief, I think. There was a relief. I think it was a sense of relief. And then, of course, the kind of work has to begin and you have to kind of, you know, the piece.
pizza boxes are pushed out the way and you've got to get on with forming your cabinet and everything else. But you're in this coalition. You're in this coalition. So I went back and read your biography again. Of course I'd read it. previously, but I read it again. Well, you beat my wife on that one. And what came over to me in your account of those days up to the Rose Garden is that there is an enthusiasm for...
The Coalition and for being with Nick Clegg. And I was thinking to myself, is David Cameron making the best of it? Is he like a brilliant performer? Or is there a part of him which is... thinking the toy party is a bit of a nightmare and I had to make some compromises in 2005 but actually this coalition might be quite helpful to me because it's going to push me to the centre ground. I know I'm going to disappoint a few colleagues but on the other hand is this actually a better outcome?
for David Cameron than a majority Tory government. I wasn't thinking that. I was thinking we're in these... circumstances where, of course, you know, what was going on outside was there was a sort of economic meltdown going on in Greece. There were riots on the streets. There was this sense of sort of economic jeopardy. And I sense that actually...
You know, I did make an active choice. We've missed out the bit straight after the election where I make the big, generous, open, comprehensive offer or whatever it was to the Liberal Democrats because I sensed that the country would actually needed a strong, stable government that could last a full five-year term and that meant a coalition.
So while there were some people saying, you know, why not just hold on? You will be the prime minister. It will be a minority administration. You govern for a while. Then you call an election. I thought that was just not what the country needed. It wasn't. I didn't feel it sat right with me. And so I wasn't sort of thinking, great, I don't have to do lots of things conservatives want to do. I'm a very...
core conservative by nature, but I could see the advantages of a stable government with a majority. Do you think, I mean, I think... And also, I think, credit to Nick Clegg, I found him easy to get on with. You know, I think we had formed not a friendship.
But in some ways, you know, in opposition, we'd often been sort of pushed into a corner, sometimes by Gordon Brown over something like expenses or whatever, where we, you know, we'd begun to build a bit of a relationship. And if I hadn't been for Europe, Nick Clegg would have been a core conservative like you.
He wasn't really a Liberal Democrat. You'll have to get Nick on your podcast to have that discussion. I think he is. I think he's a classical liberal. And he's quite anti-Tory in a number of ways. But obviously Europe was probably the biggest. But George is a bit of a classical liberal in that sense. Yeah. Well, it worked out both for me and Clegg, although I'm not president of Meta these days. I think there's such a difference between a prime minister who...
You know, has just been Chancellor of the Exchequer or just been Home Secretary, as we've had in a recent string of prime ministers like Theresa May, Rishi Sunak. And a prime minister who's been opposition leader for years, of which there are so few in my lifetime. And currently, you know, only Tony Blair, you and Keir Starmer are alive to tell that story.
Because it seems to me so much of the job of a prime minister, having observed the role really close up, is something that an opposition leader also has to do. They have to lead a party, they have to form a team. I think it's a good apprenticeship.
you know, really good training for the job. But it is a good apprenticeship because of all the things you say. You've got to be able to do that sort of multifaceted job of dealing with backbenchers, performing at privacy questions, chairing a cabinet, dealing with international leaders. trying to make sure you're making progress across all the different policy fronts. So you've got a little bit of expertise in all of them.
And also you're thinking all the time about what would I do if I was prime minister? What team would I have? What civil servants would I need? What sort of advisors are we going to have? You're thinking about those things. So I think it is a good preparation. And there's also... The thing about being prime minister is it is like...
You're just juggling so many things. I mean, in a day, you're going to have, you know, you launch a territorial appeal first thing in the morning. Then you've got breakfast with 20 business leaders. Then you've got to chair cabinet. Then you're going to the House of Commons. Then you're going to have a meeting with the National Security Council.
or then you're going to meet a mother who's lost a son in Afghanistan. So you're so many parts to your day, and you've got to be good at that, and you've also got to not find it frustrating. I think some prime ministers who were...
brilliant aspects of the job, just found that multifaceted part of it, it got in the way, whereas you actually have to embrace that that's what it is. Can we end this section with our medley, which ended with Prime Minister's questions? And you famously had given Gordon Brown...
a very hard time in his first Prime Minister's questions out of the blue, asking him about Hitzbock Trier and whether they were going to be prescribed. He didn't know the answer. How were you feeling about your first PMQs? Were you worried the same was going to be... done to you? I was incredibly nervous. Of course, you were slightly let off the hook because you didn't have, you know, a Labour leader who was there permanently. Labour was still in crisis.
Yeah, no, I was incredibly nervous. I mean, Blair writes about this in his book. It doesn't matter how long you do this thing for. And I did five years in opposition, six years in government. You're still nervous.
the last parameters questions as you are at the first because it's that atmosphere in that place one verbal slip and it's disastrous and one good line and it's triumph the line between the two is incredibly thin plus the fact you've got ed bull sitting opposite you shouting at you which i was always very bad i can't tune things out and so i've watched other people do it just much better than me they just focus on the
question. I always found the noises off. I was always saying to you, just ignore him. Ignore him. Ignore him. But I remember Dennis Skinner as well used to shout unbelievable stuff at me. And I just always found it, I found it quite difficult to face it out. Dennis Skinner would have practiced whatever he shouted at you in the mirror for a good three hours. Are you saying you never did that? Can I just ask, look, before we move on to, you know, the actual events that started...
shape those first few months as prime minister tell us some sort of things that you know ed and i've both been in the cabinet but obviously not prime minister tell us some real prime ministerial things you you know the spies come to see you do they tell you about Foreign operations. It's now known that a prime minister has to write letters to the captains of the Trident submarines in case they can't contact Britain in a nuclear war.
What are the real sort of things that only a prime minister gets told about in those first few days? Well, first, there are the intelligence briefings. And so you've got...
MI5, you've got domestic security, MI6, foreign service, you've got GCHQ. You're going to be briefed by all of those. And also you've got a national security advisor who sort of synthesizes all that. You're not responsible directly for any of them. Actually, being foreign sex... was interesting because one of the first meetings you have as Foreign Secretary is, you know, the head of MI6 coming to see you about all the most sensitive things that are being done at any one time because you are...
effectively the responsible minister. So the security briefing... So the Prime Minister didn't get that? You do, but not in quite the granular detail because, of course, as Foreign Secretary, you're signing warrants. for GCHQ about, you know, telephone interceptions and things like that. You're signing warrants for MI6 for the things that they do. Whereas the Prime Minister has overall responsibility. So you get...
Very important security briefings. But I think the letters of last resort is probably the moment it really comes home to you. So a senior naval officer comes to see you and they install in your study in Downing Street a shredder. because they're going to bring you a whole set of draft letters on the instructions that you would give to...
are nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed submarines in the event that Britain is attacked and contact is lost between Britain and the submarines about what they should do. That's why they're called letters of the last resort. I think lots of people listening to you would just think... that is just an enormous responsibility for one person to bear. And they'll wonder how you manage to ever relax, to sleep at night, because the truth is, in you is embodied huge personal responsibility.
No, it is a very chilling moment. You have plenty of time to think about it. You can talk to other people. I spoke to John Major, which was helpful because I wanted to sort of... understand how he had approached it um and then ultimately you have to make your decision and you either select one of the letters or draft one yourself and then
You know, put it in an envelope. And then the officer comes back in and you hand him your letter. And all the other bits of paper in the room are shredded so no one knows what you wrote. And then, of course, your letter. You seal the letter yourself. Right. So no one ever knows. So no one ever knows. And I actually, as prime minister, rather foolishly agreed to be lowered out of a helicopter onto a moving...
Trident submarine, landed on the deck, went into the submarine and was shown the safe where my letter was. And it's one of the lots of things I was sad about on leaving. being Prime Minister. But one thing you'll sort of slightly read about, your letter is then destroyed and no one ever sees it. And a new letter written by Theresa May will...
go into that safe in that submarine. And you didn't get your iPhone out and take a quick picture before you steal the envelope? I didn't. I did have an iPhone, I think, by that stage. But actually, it's worth remembering when I became leader of the Conservative Party. 2005, the iPhone hadn't been invented. We are talking here about quite a long time ago. We may all have been quite lucky in missing the social media revolution. And WhatsApp.
We should move on because there's one thing which struck me a moment ago. which is the difference between being in opposition and in government as a leader. When you get into government, what actually happens and the events which happen around you, those are the things which define. your time in Downing Street. And we're going to move on to that next.
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So, of course, once you get into number 10, it's the things that come flying at you that really surprise you. You can do all the planning you like, but it's the events that really shape the agenda. And David, we're just going to remind you of the kind of things that were coming at you in those first few months as Prime Minister.
Chief Treasury Secretary David Laws has apologised after it emerged that he had channelled more than £40,000 of taxpayers' money to his long-term partner. I have today spoken to the Prime Minister. and to the Deputy Prime Minister to inform them of my decision to stand down from my role as Chief Secretary with immediate effect.
Police were called to Whitehaven at 10.35 this morning after shots were fired by a man. Lone gunman Derek Bird on a shooting rampage, killing 12 people and injuring many more. The conclusions of this report... are absolutely clear. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. This is a day of huge moment and deep emotion. A second night of rioting in Northern Ireland.
Police officers under attack and masked protesters hurling bricks and petrol bombs. In response, police fired baton rounds and deployed water cannons in an attempt to control nationalist rioters in the Ardoin area in the north of the city. was challenged today to explain the logic behind hiring a photographer on taxpayers' money. Is it really a wise judgment when he is telling everybody to tighten their belts to put his own personal photographer on the civil...
service payroll. The latest new addition to the Cameron family has been welcomed to Downing Street. Ten-day-old Florence Rosen de Leon has taken her first photo call with the Prime Minister and his wife Samantha.
Right. So we've got a whole set of clips. And by the way, we could have picked any number of events, dear boy, events. And, you know, that's everything from there was the first scandal, if you like, that you had to deal with as prime minister, which is the resignation of David Laws, who was the Liberal Democrat.
Chief Secretary to the Treasury. There's the shooting in Cumbria and sort of having to deal with something obviously totally beyond your control that you're responsible for as Prime Minister. There's the Bloody Sunday Report commissioned years earlier by Tony Blair.
about events that happened when you were a tiny child yourself, and you're having to publish a report and speak to that sense of issue. There are riots in Northern Ireland. There's the issues around your own... personal affairs in terms of having a personal photographer not suits or glasses not suits or glasses or whatever photographer um although david and i did go to a taylor swift concert earlier this year and the uh you have discussed it before this book and um
And then, of course, the birth of your daughter, which you were very much responsible for. But as I say, we could have picked lots of others. I think what we're trying to capture is just the sort of rush of random events. We're going to come on and talk about budgets and white papers. I think it's absolutely crucial to understand the job that...
You know, they're just no two days at the same. And things hit you. These events just can hit you very hard and throw you completely off. You know, you wake up and think, right, today's the day we're going to talk about our education reforms. We've got really important all the head teachers coming in. And suddenly everything is blown away.
I remember there was one day where we had three different sets of COBRA meetings, you know, the cabinet office sort of emergency process, on three different subjects all at the same time. One was a shooting, one was a bomb threat, one was a... public health threat. And you have to get used to your day being completely upended. And as I said about the job, you have to sort of embrace all these differences. I mean, it seems to me much more so.
than a Chancellor Exchequer or an Education Secretary, the jobs we did, or at least in normal times for those jobs, where you're basically kind of in charge of your year and kind of in charge of your diary. The prime minister is not really in charge of their diary. So how do you make that sort of judgment call each day? I'm going to drop this education speech because I have to deal with these Cumbrian killings or.
I'm not going to drop the education speech because I don't want to be blown around by events. I mean, that seems to me that sort of, I would say one of the most central parts of the prime minister's job, working out how to spend their time.
I found two things. One is you have to spend an enormous amount of time looking at your forward diary and thinking, is that manageable? Have I got the right set of things in there? You've got to think a lot about that. And I did. I used to sit down with my diary secretary. you know, spend a lot of time just thinking, how's that all going to work? Can I make it work? The thing about being prime minister, I like being a chairman of a company or chief executive.
You know, you chair every meeting you're in. You never go to a meeting where you're not the chairman. So you have to be incredibly well briefed. You've got to have everything under control. And the other thing is... You can have off days. Not all prime ministers have been incredibly well briefed for all of their meetings. I wasn't going to make that point. But also, you can't be bad. You can have an off day, but you can't be bad at any of the things you do. You've got to be at least...
adequate or hopefully good at everything you do. So you have to, that's why I used to get out of bed very early in the morning to just really try and grip the day as its plan and then get ready for the whole thing to, to, to change. But you can't be on top of it, all of it. I mean, you can't be.
There's so many things. And I wonder this. If you look at, say, Gordon Brown, former chancellor, becomes prime minister. Theresa May, former home secretary, becomes prime minister. They were used to being on top of... every detail of what was happening in their department. And when you move to being the prime minister, I mean, that's just...
And I wonder whether it's easier for you or Tony Blair, because you'd never done a departmental job, it was easier for you not to feel destabilised by not knowing everything. I think you'd had that practice of, you know, when you're sharing the shadow cabinet, obviously it's completely different. But at least you're having to think.
the basic outlines of your health policy, your education policy, your economic policy, you get good, I think, at trying to see the big picture. And I think sometimes, as Prime Minister, you've got to keep thinking the big picture because if you dive too deeply into... a subject, you're going to get lost. Gordon Brown always wanted to know the answer to every question for PMQ's briefings. Were you like that?
I was pretty annoying in that I would sort of drive the staff very hard because, you know, you didn't want to get caught out. But you have to develop some ways of when you... don't know the answer to the question well once or twice you can say i don't know i'll get back to you but you can't do that in answer to every question but you have to develop some other ways of taking it to the bigger picture i mean you're you're helped in it seems to me three respects
So first of all, you make a decision to stick with the civil servants that Gordon Brown has. Yeah. So Jeremy Hayward is the number 10 permanent secretary. James Bowler. James Bowler, who's now runs the Treasury, but he was then the principal private secretary and had been to Gordon Brown.
and Gus O'Donnell, the cabinet secretary. So you don't really change any of those posts early on. So you've got a consistency with the civil service team and other prime ministers have cleared out the civil service team quite quickly.
Second, you've got a very loyal team that's sort of been around you in opposition that you have built up. People like Ed Llewellyn, Kate Full, Gabby Burton. I mean, by the way, I'm going to miss people out. But there's a whole set of people who are very loyal to you. essentially stay with you. A lot of them have been with me since 2005. So we'd worked together for five years. And I think you can't... Ed Llewellyn played a...
pivotal role at docking in with the civil service in a very effective way. I think the other thing we did, which is kind of... Very simple, but we kept it for the whole six years. In fact, we kept it for 11 years, is every morning started with a morning meeting, you know, 8.15, 8.30 or so, where you try, because what you're trying to do is clear out the sort of PR problems of the day.
to get on with the serious things. And then we meet again. I thought you could have stuck with that. We stuck with it all the way through and a four o'clock meeting because you've got to check all those things we said needed to be fixed at 8.30. Because what you're trying, if you think, what you're trying to do is get rid of the...
PR problems, the resignation scandal, the problem in Parliament, the more you can clear out the short-term stuff, which you've got to do, you can't ignore it, then you've got some prospect of actually thinking, right, what are we trying to achieve this week, this month, this year?
But you also, you allowed your chancellor, me, to chair that meeting of your number 10 advisors. I mean, there's almost no premise to allow anyone to do that. And it's not just, this is not particularly about me personally, but you also had... William Hague, you had Oliver Letwin. You had some people in the cabinet who were fiercely loyal to you in powerful positions.
Who also could sweat the small stuff. Oliver was brilliant at work. You need people who are all over the detail so that you can concentrate on the big picture. I would, you know, in as much as we had some success, I would say. One, we had an absolute partnership between you, George, and me. I always say it wasn't just a premiership, it was a partnership. I don't think...
I don't think other prime ministers do say that about the chancellor. I absolutely. We work together hand in glove. And that's incredibly important because the forces in British government that create silos and arguments between the departments. I mean, it's classic. It's just like. like, you know, Henry VIII. I mean, everyone builds up a silo and a court around them, and you've got to break that down. He's actually quite well known for having six wives and five.
for beheading some of them. You know what I mean? There's a pressure. Such an interesting analogy. Because I've been watching Wolf Hall, the wonderful series on BBC One. With George O'Connor. I think there's quite a lot of people who read that book, if you've been in politics, who fancy themselves as Cromwell. No comment. But I think that partnership was incredibly important. And then having a very strong cabinet office, Francis Ward and Oliver Letwin.
who were really trying to sort of drive the agenda that we set made a big difference. I am tempted to kind of start talking about the George relationship or the team, but we'll come back to that as... events unfold over our next two episodes. But just on being Prime Minister, I think people were really interested to know, because George has made a reference to this in our podcast a couple of times over the last year, you assume...
If you are an outsider, the prime minister must know what's going on. There must be people telling him what the truth is. You know, police reports, intelligence reports, your network around the world.
Whereas George says sometimes you have to watch the telly to find out what is going on. Maybe partly because the officials don't want to tell you... a truth unless they are sure how often did you feel that you didn't quite know what the hell was going on oh i often found that you switching on the television particularly in a fast-moving situation. Because, of course, look, the officials are going to tell you everything, but they want to...
bring all the information together at the COBRA meeting at 2 o'clock, and that's when they're going to bring you up to date. But sometimes you really want to know in the meantime what exactly is happening. I remember with respect to the Libyan operation,
That, you know, often I was found watching either Sky or in fact, Al Jazeera, who had correspondents right up on the front line before I went into the Cobra meeting meant that I was, you know, possibly more up to date than the generals who were coming to brief me.
Very important. Sam Kiley at Sky was a sort of, you know, important member of the team. Do you think, before we move on from this section, because we won't, I don't think, come back to it, just how does a prime minister handle two types of scandal? So there's a scandal of a member of your cabinet. And in your autobiography, you said you thought that Tony Blair sometimes hit the kind of ejector button too soon.
But in the case we had David Orsworth, of course, there were other resignations over time. You know, you do have to kind of hit the eject button. And, you know, you have to sacrifice someone's entire career and life. That's how it feels at the moment. Sometimes it's really obvious. Sometimes it's really obvious. And there's just no choice. Bang to rights. And you've got to act quickly and be seen to act quickly.
I felt that sometimes Tony Blair was just, it was too much. It was the next deadline and the person had to go by then. And I thought that wasn't fair. I think you ought to give someone a chance of trying to prove that there is a defense for what they've done. And I remember with the case of...
Liam Fox, I definitely gave him some time to try and do that with Maria Miller. I think actually with David Laws, the very first resignation we had, there was an attempt to look at the question about, because he... You know, I think it was to do with was he behaving in a different way because he was living with his male partner? And so was there a defense? And so we gave him some time. And I remember Andy.
Andy Coulson and our team hitting the phones trying to help David Law. So conservative spads, as it were, were kicking in to try and save the minister, but it didn't work. But we definitely gave him some time. And what happens when it affects you personally? I mean, I know it's unbelievably annoying, the personal photographer, by the way, lovely guy called Andy. But...
Well, I noticed the thing that changed when I went back into government as foreign secretary. Everyone's got a photographer now, and they're all employed by the government. And actually, if you want to have proper social media, you do need to have some.
No, I totally caved in to press pressure. And poor Andy Parsons, who was the photographer, had to be, you know, removed. I'm not really asking about that. But I did actually, I sort of thought it was one of those ones who just thought we got to...
We're getting attacked. We've got to change it. But in fact, actually, it's perfect. I mean, prime ministers ought to have and ministers ought to have some sort of photographic record, not least because you're trying to put stuff out on social media to explain what you're doing. I've obviously touched the wrong. But it's more a point, like, when something affects you, who tells you, you know what, Prime Minister, you know what, David, this is a problem about you, your family?
I had good people like that. So Ed Llewellyn was very good, Andy Coulson, and then Craig Oliver. I mean, Craig was brilliant. I mean, he'd just, you know, he'd come and sit in my room and say, look, I know you feel you're not being treated fairly, but look.
Let me tell you how this... He was always very good at saying, let me tell you how this is going to go. And he'd literally describe the next day's newspapers, the day after that, the news at the weekend. And he could tell how things were going to unfold. And so you'd come to the conclusion, OK, we better just... But if you have an issue about... I don't know, say about tickets or suits or spectacles or anything like that. As Prime Minister, do you think...
promises sit there thinking, how did this happen? Who decided this? Why wasn't I told? Or fundamentally, do you think promises tend to be on top of what's going on in those kind of personal arrangements, and blaming other people is a bit of a cop-out. There's no, look, I'll talk, I mean, I hope people who work for me will back me up. I was pretty good when getting bad news, and I didn't. tend to sort of throw my toys out of the pram. I just said, okay, we've got to sort this out.
And I think with those sorts of things, they could be very hurtful because you sort of – you take them rather personally. But ultimately, you've got to go, oh, come on. You know, you're prime minister. You're incredibly fortunate to be doing this job you love. You know, you just sought it. And also – I was very lucky Andrew Feldman was excellent, you know, trying to make sure that all those sort of funding and financing and arrangements were right.
So hopefully you don't get into too many of these scrapes, but if you do, you ought to be pretty brutal at getting out of them. So on that note of brutality, we are going to pause. on this journey through your first six months of your premiership. When we return for episode two, your chance at the Exchequer. someone I have a lot of time for, is gearing up to deliver the first Conservative budget in 14 years. And that's where we're going to pick up next time.
I think it worked, but we're still having to make that argument because there's a huge establishment out there that thinks, no, no, austerity was a mistake. I essentially put aside my own personal ambitions to be the Prime Minister to support you. Yes, we'll be back with episode two of Inside Number 10, David Cameron, the first six months on Thursday, unless, of course, you're a subscriber, in which case...
all episodes are already available to listen to ad-free. Yeah, you can find the details of how to join our own political party, the Political Currency Political Party, in the show notes. And we'll see you next time. You've been listening to Inside Number 10, David Cameron, the first six months. This is a Persefonica production.
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