Thank you for listening to Pictures Media Radio. Welcome to Policy and Rights, the show about the government, policy and human rights. Welcome back to Policy and Rights here in Depictions Media Radio. I'm your host, Michael Cloggs. I'm about to have a conversation with a actor and well a TV personality that believes that Israel and Palestine really does need to work things out. They need
to come to some sort of agreement. And we're going to have a conversation a little bit about, you know, events after October seventh, twenty three, and in a little bit of history before that, and a little bit about what we have been told through the years, living outside of the area and having somewhat of well, Karen has a newly completely Jewish background, and of course I have a background that has a lot of Judaism in it,
and what we've been told about why it's so important for Israel to be able to defend itself and why that they should be allowed a carte blanc to be able to defend themselves because they're surrounded by such hostile people. But the real
question is is that really true? Ka appeared on Zoom and she's wearing a T shirt that represents a dance school, and we're gonna have We're also going to talk about, you know, there was culture in this area, that the children were in school, that there were schools and areas for the kids to play in everything, how all that has been torn apart, and what is the end to allowing Israel to destroy Gaza to the point that they have. At what point do we say, hey, you've gone too far?
And at what point do we say that this is genocide which is illegal according to all international laws. And of course now we're looking at uprisings around the world at different university students who are saying, hey, we need to see this start to be handled differently. So why don't we jump into the conversation that I had with Kara about what's going on in Palestine. Okay, so
welcome back, everybody. I'm here today with Carara Pifco and we're gonna talk about some this is real life, heartbreaking stuff about Palestine, Gaza and Cara right now is wearing a T shirt that represents a dance school in Gaza. It was bombed some I'll get Karen to correct me on this. I believe
some of the children were hurt. If if not maybe even killed. And why don't we get Karen Is on the show and then we'll start talking with her about So, Cara, what what exactly your your friends that they own? The own the camp Breakers. It is called camp Breakers. They're They're
not anybody I know personally, They're not my direct friends. These are a group of dancers who have become teachers who have been running a school for many years there and I just discovered them through following what's happening there and saw the joy, the light, the connection that they were bringing to dance students there as a mode of expression. They're discovering their own styles. They're creating their
own styles through the pain and the grief of what they're experiencing. So yes, many of the children who were part of their dance school were martyred and killed by Israel, because I'd like to speak freely here. And they have been digging through the rubble, finding photos and trying to collect bits and pieces to be able to They now teach again in a slightly swept out blown open version of their school as well as on the street. And I think what
they do is remarkable. So you can go to on Instagram anyway at Camp Breakers b R e A k E r z or Z to support that school. Yeah, I mean, the region itself is rich with culture. It's a you know, it's there's some that want to paint the Palestine is just being a bunch of terrorists. But that's not that's not true. There's rich culture, there's people who want to do good in our world that they are living there and have been hurt, right, Yeah, for sure, there's
so much to go on on what you just said. So listen, let me state first of all that I feel like as an advocate, my purpose is to first foremost bring attention to the voices on the ground. So I'm purely here to draw attention to those voices on the ground who are actually experiencing and living the horrors of what is happening every day there. To the beauty of the people and what you just said, specifically, I can draw people's attention to Bisan Bsan, who is at Perhaps I can send you the link
afterwards to connect. Yeah, well we'll put all the links in the notes later on. Yeah, thick, but she's a beautiful example. Before October seventh, she was a student of the anthropology of gaza, and so she was a filmmaker and she would walk around and take you into the history of this building and that building, and this part of the culture and that part
of the culture, the food, the families. So when the most active recent campaigns since October seventh destruction began, it became instead a study of everything that they were losing as they were losing it, and how the culture was
adapting in spite of this kind of destruction. And the other piece that you said that I'd love to address that I think is part of the vehicle of colonial control of the narrative is historically a land without a people for a people without a land, which is part of the Zionist bog line, if you will, which I can speak to a little bit because that's part of my
personal journey inside this. But it's certainly not a land without people. This is a beautiful, rich culture, and I think that's part of the good that is coming out of this. If one must seek a overlining, is the world movement of a true moral army, contrary to what Israel calls itself, of the youth movement, the grassroots movements, the unifying of just your
whole platform of a humanitarian thinking that says, this is bonkers. We refuse to sit by and watch as you test chemical weapons on an unarmed civilian population. So I should probably address at some point, you know, the significance of Hamas and what happens on October seventh. But I think the long story short of it is nothing about what's happening started on October seventh. Oh well, well, and here's here's the cloud to that is, the history starts
for the colonialism stry at the end of World War two. Please, yeah, so this is so this this has been going on for decades. The Hamas isn't their breaking point didn't start October seventh. It goes back decades, right, yeah, so yes, yeah, I mean, and it was once a very beautiful place and hopefully will be again. It certainly was an incredibly beautiful place, and it's tragic to see all of that being bombed on a regular basis. The white phosphorus that's being used is a war crime.
That is just yeah, demonic. I mean, the approaches that they're using are demonic, Even the small things that I think a lot of people perhaps don't know about unless they're like saturating themselves in these experiences of people on the ground, is just the sound of the drone constantly that all of the time, which is an indication of an announcement coming of clear the area, or
you're going to be shot, or simply just being shot. You're your child, that you're that you're holding the hand of dropping to the ground, you're going to get food and holding a bag of flour and being shot, holding a white flag and being shot to the ground. I mean, this is sniper technology that is used to take out civilians. It's it's a land clear, it's a land grab. Yeah, I'm sure that that that that part is actually true. Clear out as many people as you can and then move
your settlers. In the definition of genocide, yeah, let's get into that though. Is a is is is what happening there? Is it truly genocide? You know, I know that we all know that it's hit the International Justice Court? Is Is it accurate? Is this genocide? All? Right? So again, I am an actor, I'm a human humanitarian, I'm a mother. I'm not a politician. So you know, take everything I say with a grain of salt. So in my opinion, call it what
you will. First of all, like Whether or not someone refuses to use the word genocide, it still doesn't change how things are being managed there. The obliteration of entire family lines, the carpet bombing of entire families, the raising of entire cities, the before and after photos that the people under the rubble that are still buried and found. It's a mass killing in huge numbers in a very small period of time that is going completely unmeasured, unrestrained in
any way. The impunity of these attacks is unseen. We haven't seen it anywhere else in this amount of bombing in a highly populated area of the world. Yes, I would absolutely stand behind the word genocide, and the fact that they're calling it a plausible genocide is a start. And I think that's odd terminology, Like what does that really mean? I can't even I can't even think of how you' would defined pousible genouside. Yeah, I found that
to be odd, languaging. I think what that comes from is the politics at hand, the deep relationships that go beyond any clear vision of humanity of any kind that allows people to hold on to a rhetoric that has fed to them, which perhaps leads to the kind of harsher way to say to Zionist brainwashing, which is exactly what happens in schools there. I've heard from Israeli is that I have come into contact with their my own family, there's this
belief system. Let me speak from just my own personal perspective on it for a moment. I was raised as a secular Jewish child person and humanistic we were called the Secular Jewish Humanistic Association was the Sunday school that I went to, and what I would call what I was raised in is as like a
soft Zionism or a liberal Zionism or a leftist Zionism. As I think the languaging that was used what I was growing up and graduating from high school, I felt a kind of guilt that if I was a good Jewish person, I would go to Israel, I would spend a year there, like that's what I should be doing, right, was sort of how I was raised and much like the very pointed if not brainwashing, I'm trying to use language that perhaps adds a little bit of understanding of the thought process there, of
controlling of the narrative of what the relationship is to Palestinians. For israelis that has completely come apart for me. Now, long story short, I really recommend people watch the movie Israelism. Have you seen that one? No, I actually haven't seen that one. Check it out look for that. We'll also place it in the note. Yeah. Yes, to means I'm not
personally associated with that film in any way. It's just another one that I came across and I found that it was a good one for me to watch with family members or people that I knew that couldn't quite grasp the shift of what's going on. Israel just defending itself. The attack from Hamas was awful,
and what's Israel supposed to do? Right? So to that, what we're seeing is not really a response to October seventh, right, what we're seeing is a massive excuse to exercise plans that have been in place since the sixties. The port that they're building now with huge amounts of construction trucks that are going in and clearing rubble and building this very beautiful looking for aid.
Give me a break is part of it fits miraculously exactly like the plans that show where they're trying to create a second canal so can operate more trade through this canal that doesn't exist yet, right, So anyway, for people who are still waking up to the shift from colonial thinking to humanitarian thinking, let's call it, I did find Israelism was a very good way to create opportunities for dialogue between people who are perhaps coming at it from a different angle.
It was a good path to navigating through seeming confrontation. So, just to finish that thought for me, I am embarrassed to say that for me, this awakening did come after October, soon after October seventh. That prior to that, I carried the way, carried the line of of soft Zionist thinking. And it was only as I watched the aftermath of what was happening that I started, like so many others, to do my research and to wake
up. Yeah, yeah, I think I think my awakening to to what to to the to the idea that Israel isn't just simply defending itself and simply trying to take over takeover, takeover came a few years ago during the pandemic, when I started listening listening to the rhetoric that was being put out there by the UN ambassador from Israel versus the Palestinian. One one was was using
uh language of you're not listening to Israel. Israel is always going to be right, and the other ones using language can you please just look at the situation? And I was like, well, wait a second, why would he just want you to look at this situation while the other guy is saying
that we're always right. Yeah, and it makes you think right, and that was your like, wait a second, yeah, because because I grew up with with I remember in the seventies that there was some sort of an attack and of course the Israeli war machine took action and it pushed the the the Muslims back away again from from Jerusalem or something I think it was or something. It was like I was I was only like maybe nine years old
or something like that. So it's just so a little fuzzy, you know, but my because I do have have a Jewish background, also that they were my parents are saying whoa, no, they're right, and and and the Muslim people they you know, they represent evil. And it was like and then part of that awakening was nine to eleven when I realized that I'm I'm sitting there talking to the and a mom it's like he's he wants peace. So the average person in the religious average religious leader on either side,
both rabbi and a mom, they want peace for these people. They won't. It's the governments that are pushing the the destruction and for what. And that's the question, what is the endpoint? Right? Like you said, they're building this this port so yeah, you know, well, like you said, you know, it's the there's radicalization that elevates things to a whole other level. And to note as well that you know, there are moms
who have been quiet through all of this. There's rabbis who have been siding with Israel for sure, but there's also you know, Yemen who will you know, has completely come to some very active choices to try to bring attention to a people that are being so wildly ignored, which is another I'm happy you were open to having this conversation today and for the work that you're doing, because anything we can do to bring a wake up call to just maybe
I could say that in a softer way, to bring an invitation to look deeper. Yes, that's a better way to say it. Right, What do you think with all that? What do you think of of the sit ins in the in the protests because now the universities across Europe and Asia are joining in as well as North America joining in. And what do you what do you think about about all that? And then there was violence in Colombia University in New York City. Uh, I guess it was two days ago.
What do you think. I think it's indicative of what I hope is. You know, you can look to prophecy for it as well of that aside, a great change, change is coming, you know, it's it's it's another layer of you know, talk about a revolutionle you know, may it be finally so that we are coming to through the use of the connectivity
that we have on the internet. One of the reasons why you know, what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank is so popularized, if you will, is because you know, they've been We've got our cell phones the right up there in the horrors of what is occurring. So nobody can say I had no idea. I didn't know it was so bad. I didn't learn about it until I was in my history class one hundred and fifty years later.
Give me a break. This is like, you know, my kids were off school for Armenian Genocide Day, and I'm grateful that that's being recognized. And I'm like, dude, we've got a live genocide happening right the heck now. So anyway, I think it is remarkable, beautiful, powerful. I think it is indicative of what is happening in terms of the youth movement saying no, I refuse to take part, I refuse to turn a
blind eye. There's just there's been phases I've been noticing as I've been getting deeper into what the phases, where there's opportunities for for the the push of attention to drop off, and activists will say, you know, keep talking about Palestine, keep talking about Palestine, keep talking about Palestine, Okay. And I think part of what we're seeing here is that feeling of like I can't stop, like I can't until it's over. Like they're they're bombing Rafa
refugee camps. Now, I mean because you're planning there's still planning on bombing Rafa. No, they are bombing Raffia. They have started bombing Rafa. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean it's uh that there's just I think everybody who is awake to what is occurring is looking for what else can I do?
Right? And so I think that's why you're seeing stronger populations of people showing up for protests and to what you're saying about the brutality that's happening there, This is perhaps part of what will be the wake up call as well. Yeah, because we're seeing, just as we've been advised that Israeli troops have trained American the police, So we're seeing the same holds, the same approaches, the same way of breaking people down, the same complete obliteration of
humanitarian laws. And perhaps this is part of what will wake some people out of the thought that I've heard a lot as well of well, you know, it's so far away, it's always crazy over there. Yeah. Well, we could have a whole conversation around the colonialism that exists around the world and including in North America, but I really want to focus on helping these people on the ground get their home back. Yeah. Yeah, everybody deserves that, right, say that again. Everybody deserves a home, a safe
home. That's yes, yes, of course, And what they're facing is a hope beyond hope that that that will be possible. Again. I mean, you see people that are crossing back from the south to the north just to see what's left. And numerous examples of people being shot or bombed or run over by live by tanks. Live, I mean the imagery of of what is occurring there. I don't know if everybody's seeing the same things. You know, people are being found murdered with having been bound for for long
periods of time. You know, they're they're they're they're being shot children, Like you can see the cables, the rip ties that are that are big because it was around a child's set of bound wrists. It goes on and on. Yeah, I forgot what you were saying just before that. Yeah, it's the scene is beyond horrendous. And there's been reports from many humanitarian people who said they just want to be able to go in there and do the do their work and help the people. Yeah. Well that was it
about people crossing back to the north to get back to their homes. And I did see footage of a boy who found his what was rubble of his house and found his bike under the rubble and was able to pull that out and he was so happy. I saw another boy who was using one of the umbrellas that came down from the the aid boxes and was holding it behind his bicycle, entertaining some of the younger kids, like a big kite behind
behind his bicycle. And kites are a huge thing there. There's huge kite festivals that happen there, and so as a result of that being part of the youth culture, people are creating kites out of out of things that they can. It's it's the resourcefulness, the adaptations, the unity of family, the desire to share with with with each other, with with animals, the there really is a sense I believe of the heart of the world is in Palestine, that this this is a wake up call for all of us and
and and that Palestine holds the heart of the world. I do believe and feel that. Now, yeah, well, since we're going to start running out of time soon, so best advice if we wanted to be peacefully protests. I don't want to see any more violence, but we do we but peaceful protest, how do we have best advice for how we can do that? Sure looking up organizations that are near you. Obviously, who knows who who's listening, But Jewish Voices for Peace is a good organization to follow.
Democracy Now is a good organization to follow. Code Pink does a lot of really interesting activity. They go into Congress, they're at the flotilla. There's that freedom flotilla that's trying to make its way out of Turkey to bring aid.
Code Pink is a really good one to follow. Just keep an eye on what Motaz is up to. He's a journalist if your listeners aren't up on him, who is a Gaza citizen and his photographic works were so powerful that it really got the world attention, and he got out and he is now making the rounds on various protests talk shows to keep the voice alive outside
of Gaza. So keep an eye on what he's doing. Call to Action Now is another group, or you can just look up other organizations that are more close to you to take part in terms of keeping safe, you know, be smart. All of these organizations will have at least the ones that I've been listing, will have guide lists, mandates of how to stay safe, what to do and not do. Listen to the organizers and follow your
own instincts of what's enough for you. I guess I would say also, so I think everybody's looking for how to step up whatever it is you're doing. So with that, whatever you can do is great. I think I believe that do whatever you can if you can boycott, boycott. There's an app called no Thanks, which is another one that we could perhaps link to where you can look up what products are in the participation of funding the very bombs that are melting people on a daily basis. Sorry, it's just it's
it's hard. It's a lot industry and the traumas of what's occurring on a daily basis. I have children, you know, every time we eat, it's like it's it's on my mind all the time. And perhaps I'll end with another story of what motivates me inside of this. My grandfather escaped the Holocaust by being put on a wagon of dead bodies. He was not dead, he was put onto this wagon, and that wagon is what began his journey to Canada, where my mother, my family, my children all exist
because of that. And I saw an image early in the aftermath of October seventh that I just I saw of those two things. And so with all of the other people of the Jewish background that say not in my name, not a name, Yeah, yeah, all right, thank you, so much. Karen, It's been wonderful having you, and you're right not my name, yeah, not in any of our names. Cease fire, now free Palestine. Okay. I really want to thank Kara Pivko for appearing on
our show. It was a true honor to be able to meet her and to speak with her about the issues and how we need to create a better world for our children. And we even said that we hope that our grandchildren will find that we'll be born into a world that finds that peace. While that is all great, and hope that we all need to work together to create that world of peace, we can't be complacent about it. We need
to be active. So I'm going to ask that when when you're done listening, please go to the show, find the links that's that are there, and go to the depictions dot media and there there will be also a a place there where you can click on links to groups that are like minded in
let's find peace. Let's find a way to work together, and let's find a way for Palestine and Israel to coexist together and have the people who just just the simple people who want to live there be able to live there without having to hear the noises of the drones or bombs, explosions, or any of the any of that, let there be peace. So thank you for listening and we will talk to you next time. The show has been produced
by Depictions Media. Please contact us at depictions dot media for more information