Mona Lisa Smile

Welcome everybody to the Polarize podcast. Those alliterations pee pee. I am your host, Brandon Stables. This is a podcast about movies, polarizing movies in particular. Today, we are going to be talking about a polarizing movie, Mona Lisa Smiles, which is a 34 percent stinky by the critics and 60 percent. Yeah, good. Poppin poppin corn on the audience side. But yeah, again, this is a movie about polarized movies in the sense of rotten tomato scores like I just given.

I am not the only person that's going to be talking. I am also going to be talking with some other people. And one of those is my. We well, we call him forever gas, but he is legitimately a cohost. Everybody warm welcome for me. Hello, it's me, Jane, the James. I'm the James the forever gas. I'm back again for for another rousing episode of the Polarize pod, where we get into polarizing movies. But the hosts, me and you, Brandon, were.

We're magnetizing the hostess with the mostest, you know, and today. Today is a long. Today is a great day to record a pod, in my opinion. You know, it's like the weather outside. It's rainy. You don't really want to go out anywhere. You just want to, you know what? Hopefully people listening out there, bundle up and sit back and get ready for hell of a movie, in my opinion. I I had not seen this movie before. I feel like my only recollection of this movie was there was like.

Did it win an award? I should have looked this up beforehand, but I just remember it being very popular and being like, huh, that movie looks. Fine. Do I have any interest in seeing it? I would have been 13 years old. Do I want to see a movie called Mona Lisa's Smile? Not really that into that. But I do remember it being kind of a big deal. And I think mainly because of Julia Roberts.

But now, having seen it, I now understand that it's more so because it is just bursting at the seams with up and coming young talent in this movie. But yeah, not not too much of a history with this movie. What about you, James? No history beyond just seeing the title and knowing that Julia Roberts was in it, but not knowing anything past that just seemed like the cover of them like looking. Now I've seen the movie, them looking at the Jackson Pollock painting. And that. Oh, my God, I love that.

And the font. And I maybe saw a trailer or something that I forgot at the time in 2003, but it was not really on my radar apart from like, oh, that's an interesting title. Even so much so that I think us picking this one for the podcast, we were kind of like, I don't know, I was I always just make a list of a lot of front and tomato. I'll just kind of scrounge through rotten tomatoes of it some days.

And just round and just go through the filth of the tomatoes and just like, which one would sell the discourse here? And I just threw this one on the list. And here we are. And it was just like on on a pile of suggestions that we were thinking about. And both of us just thought it was an interesting title. We have heard of it and it would be interesting to try because we have no idea what it's about. And now we're on the other side.

And it's an interesting process of watching and hopefully discussing a movie. Yeah, absolutely. And then we're not going to be the only ones today talking about this movie. I want to bring in our guests so we can get her thoughts. Well, thoughts in general, but also her history with this movie. If she has any, I would like to intro into the pod. Miss Cara. Hello. Yeah, I do a little etiquette training, right? Right. A smile.

Like my nose. Yeah. Just a really, yeah, really taking heat to the lessons of Nancy Abbey or Marcia Gay Harden, Marcia. Marcia. Marcia. I think so. I love Marcia. Yeah. Marcia Gay Harden sounds correct. Sounds she may be an MGH, but she's kind of an MVP for me. OK, movies that she's in. Oh my God. Well, we got a yeah, I'm done to talk about that. But Cara, hey, especially one, Mejo Black, a M.J.B. movie. Very good. Hello, Cara. Hi. How are you?

Very well. Good. What's your history with this movie? Because you walk with Mona Lisa. We we watched it together, but we didn't really get to and to discussion for your first time watching besides. I think you just said you'd seen it when maybe it first came out. Yeah. So back in the day when there was no Netflix or any streaming services, there was this thing called TBS. Yes. Or TNT. And it was like a cable station that or was it was it a cable station?

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah, I would say this is a dead tuner. Back in the day, this man named Ted Turner. I think one of those channels would play this movie a lot. Or just I mean, played it once or twice. And I had seen it through three times a lady. And I remember watching it. Yeah, like during the day, it was on during the day. And it just didn't smile. Oh, well, a mission accomplished movie. There we go. Sad as well. Would you would it make you frown in a sad way?

Um, out of one side of your mouth and smile with the other. No. OK, OK. Well, I was just smiling. Just having a good time. It wasn't too dramatic. Yeah, because I was like young back then, probably like 12 or something. And I didn't fully understand the idea of like being being a feminist and all that stuff. So it was just like a fun movie. Like it didn't seem like that. Like the like the coming of the website is definitely a big part of it. Oh, my God, I'm sure.

But I didn't understand how like important these stories were of these. Oh, yeah. And like, yeah, more totally grand kind of scale. Yeah, it doesn't. It has those moments of getting into it, but it doesn't. It doesn't go too deep in any way. Yeah, it's it is. I like the coming of each side. And I do like that too. Yeah, you love a kind of a college movie. Yeah, and the relationships and the casting and all that stuff. Yeah, it's kind of it's a good it's a feel good movie, I would say.

Yeah, yeah. Mostly I would say mostly too. Um, it is feel the ending not to jump all the way to it, but I'll just make the point because of, you know, kind of what we're talking about now, but like it is feel good in not a sense that everything is going to necessarily be OK.

It's feel good in the sense that there are people are moving in a direction that has a lot of potential and positive, like positive momentum, maybe, which which is always like kind of a kind of a cooler approach to a happily ever after, you know, more of a generic conclusion to this, you know, to the story to a movie. And I kind of appreciated the shit out of it for doing that. Not kind of. I did. Yeah, as there are some some growth for everyone.

Yeah. Yeah, like you said, it didn't get too deep. And it there wasn't too much like drama. I mean, there was, but like not like nothing super, super horrible happened. Little pops, little pops, little pops. Because because of the way that it does, it would be a little bit of the criticism of of just how it's handled with Kirsten Dunce and how. Yeah, that's relegated to her is kind of tough for her as a character. And you do feel bad for her, but how it's portrayed in the movie is a little.

Like blunt force objects of of dealing with emotions in a movie rather than. Sure. A little more subtlety, but you know, that's that's. I mean, absolutely fair.

Yeah, because I mean, to start getting into the plot of it, it's like it is pretty like if you were to like, you know, kind of take a step like our like kind of not let the movies like guilty pleasureness of it get to you and and and with a more critical eye, you're like a lot of this stuff is like really hamfisted and signaling from like a mile away. Like you have an idea of like how everybody is going to kind of have their dramas in this from very early on in the movie.

Because the yeah, it's just. That first scene of the classroom man just, you know, really sets up like I'm this type of character. I was a crazy one.

It's a lot of that's when it came off like unnatural and it almost would seem like in certain instances, like people weren't in the same room together, even talking to each other because it was so overly scripted in a way where people are just now I say my thing and I say yours rather than like it being Congress together, but the students just knowing everything and then like just downplaying the teacher in such a way was such a weird, unnatural

way of introducing the two. I get that it wants to set them at odds, but the way that they that happened just is strange. It is very strange because yeah, I mean, what we would arguably be used to is the teacher is not confident in her ability to communicate the the subject or like, you know, the curriculum or whatever, but it's not, but the kids are like, yeah, they're not experts on this yet or they are. And I don't know the yeah, typically it's not the kids know more than the

teacher. Well, it's not like that's totally true, but you get a lot of that's totally true, but you get what I mean. And instead it's like, all of them are such nerds, I guess is really what I'm getting at. A bunch of nerds. Everybody read the entire textbook before. And even if they did go like, I don't know, going through the motions and classes a part of it. Sorry. Sure. Yeah.

It was just trying to like, obviously you guys know that it's just trying to show that they're overachievers and like they run them and their families run the school, like they run Westley, like teachers just yeah, they don't hold the power at that school. I think obviously you guys know that's what they were trying to like say. Yeah, but the way it was done, it just wasn't. Yeah.

Yeah, because like kind of what James was saying is that it's but it's not like they've never been in a classroom before. Like even if you do know more than the teacher, you're a college age student. Like you've had to have had high school teachers where this was the case too. And you're all just going to like talk over her as she presents it. Or just yeah, there's also like all coming from like privileged backgrounds.

So like they just they what whatever they do goes, you know, like whatever they do and say goes so they kind of make the rules. And I think they were just trying to prove that to her, like show her that they are in control of the situation. Yeah, the end result satisfied what they wanted. But I guess getting there for me just it was a little some of that stuff is a little clunky, just how it's how it's portrayed.

But I understand that them kind of hazing her as a new teacher and into the new regime and everything. And she is a little bit of an outsider to all of them, even as students and everything. So I can see from that side. But how it was done was just a little clunky. The fall the follow up to it. I overall enjoyed that scene of her kind of trying to get I always like those scenes in these kind of these kind of movies of a teacher trying to make them think differently.

And that's where they wanted to get as well as having this opening scene of 100 percent of like, oh, well, if that's how it's going to be, then let me really try to teach you something or make you think for yourself and learn to be independent and not try to just regurgitate what's being given to you through this book that everyone's read and knows like the back of their hand and everything. It's like, OK, well, how do you feel?

And that's a that's the overall thrust of what she's trying to do for them and everything. And I think that's something again, and in these kind of movies of teaching kids independence in a coming of age story is I. Yeah, hard not to have a soft spot for those kind of stories, I feel like. Yeah, absolutely. So this is like I said before, this is like the who's who in my mind of up and coming female actresses or actress, I'm sorry, of the time.

And so I kind of want to run through them and how, you know, how familiar you are with their work, where they were, you know, have they been into, you know, kind of have you followed them from, you know, from not this movie necessarily, but like all of them have been in working actors for a while now.

And I'm curious how everybody feels about like maybe your favorite person, be it, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be like the character, but how well the actor actors like doing that character. But nonetheless, like we got Kirsten Dunst, Julia Stiles, Maggie Jill and Hall. And then Jennifer Goodwin, I'm the least familiar with. But I, she's been in stuff. I feel like, God, she was on. A big part of a TV show that's like. Once upon a time. Once upon a time. That's what it is. Snow White.

Yeah, which is obviously I would assume is an enormous character in that show. That's probably, yeah. I mean, from 2011 to 2018, once upon a time. So that's a lot of time. What a popular show. Also magnetized 78, 78. But it is a movie. So we would. It's a TV show, so we would include that. But she's going to walk the line. Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah. That after that was after this. 2005. Yeah. A couple of years after. When a date with Ted Hamilton was 2004. And the other one too.

He's not into you or something like that. We're like, yes, he's just. Yeah, he's just not. Yeah, he's just not. Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. I don't know if I really liked that movie, but I did see it. That's for sure, because it had. I just remember E from entourage in it. What's his face? God, yeah, that was one of those like, you know, romcoms with just a bunch of couples and characters in it. Yeah, which I can definitely like most people are a sucker for.

Yeah. And then who else is in this? She was great in this movie. I'll just say Lily Jennifer. Yeah, I like her. I really liked her character. Yeah, a lot. I think she was doing some great work here. She's charming. And she really did deep on some crying stuff that was really emotional. I also like really more so than others got a lot of like her. Her like development, like an actual change in her life. Change in her character was noticeable.

Yeah, you know, from beginning to end of the movie, which man, yeah, I think. And her relationship is a bit like a story of her relationship was wholesome and hard-working and you were expecting their confrontation to be more negative from coming from him of him moving on to a different girl and and, you know, trying to hide her away and everything.

All that all that stuff and like the how he was trying to reach out to her and she actually acted upon those negative inclinations that ultimately like sabotaged her own wants and desires and everything. Yeah, I liked. Yeah. And the guy from the bear that that's. Yeah, man. Oh, baby. Bear or baby cousin. Baby cousin. Because. He's great. Beautiful. He's got very pretty eyes. Yeah. And he's a yeah, he's in that was a and or show. He's he's really good.

Oh, is it? OK. Yeah, he's really good in that. He's just awesome as an actor overall. Yeah. And was it Kristen Ritter is under name and like. She says nothing in the movie. I wish so. She says anything. Yes, she's kind of there. Zero things. And she's just in the background. And then there's one scene in particular where like somebody walks. I think like Julia Roberts walks by her. So she's like very prominently on the screen.

And they just really blew me away that I'm like, wow, so she's just not going to have anything to say in this one. That's crazy, you know, from kind of what term, you know, how her. There's already too many women. There's too many women talking and can't have more women talking. I mean, it's like one of those kids in the movies that's like, oh, that kid's been in all the Harry Potter movies, hasn't said anything.

Oh my God, I agree, Kara, because like and I think I don't want to agree because, you know, I mean, it's like, well, if there's a bunch of great characters, it's like, you know, more please. But the movie doesn't handle well, all of these characters. There's like a there's like a period in like the middle, front middle of this movie where it's jumping between all of them so quickly where it kind of blew me away that a like checking in on what this character is up to was so incredibly brief.

Like I feel like we would just get like a scene of a character where they have like like very few lines of dialogue and then exactly what you mean. Yeah, editing in this movie was. Yeah, kind of pretty clunky and how it's shot and everything, too, was. Yeah, not. Great and not. They were just like, yeah, uneven and just the way that the cuts and at which point that they would cut and how the shot would be composed was little if he had some parts.

And I know Kara and I even were just like commenting on when like the car you commented on when like there was like a crane shot or something that was overlooking, you know, a nice part of the campus, but it just wasn't composed in a way that there was focus on any object. It was just all like there in the shot. Yeah, it was just kind of just and then it cut away and had a weird point of it and it just seemed kind of forced in rather than purposeful.

However, I did like some of the lighting in this movie and I'm wondering if that's a combination of like glowy, like morning light mixed with shooting on film on a bunch of beautiful women's faces. Like, uh-huh. And the campus seemed really beautiful to me. Like, I don't know, just the light on their faces just looked so nice and glowy and everything and their complexion and all that. Maybe that was a part of it, but I don't know.

Yeah, like the morning time and the campus and it's a it was a nice, nice campus and then all that stuff too. So maybe it just looks good for those those reasons, but I'll give it that credit. There's something about this time that was maybe it's missing like the little bit of that filmmaking sort of feel a little bit warmer sort of tone tones. They didn't get enough like shots during production and like they just needed to like fill in little missing things to show passage of time and just.

Yeah, I know what you mean, like the editing didn't feel. Or it just there was just a lot of unnecessary scenes. That didn't really do anything other than like show time passing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, check in with every one of the characters every every now and then. And it would be like a floor like there were a couple of times when it's like, what was the point of that?

Like, why did we just why did we just jump over show a little something and then jump away and it's like maybe for characterization or something. But it didn't it didn't. And then anything else going on. It just was like also this, but you know, the hell anything. And it was just it was just a little strange and clunky, but in these kind of movies, like it's cool to be with the characters in the coming of age thing. But this all this movie also is.

Like kind of perp, perp, perposing itself with some loftier ideas. So you kind of want them to get to those a little bit more if they are going to try to accomplish talking about some of the loftier things. And they save those moments for some. Yeah, some pops, like some really intense dramatic moments that kind of culminate, which. I'm a little I don't know. I'm a little mixed on on some of it, but the overall messaging and the the heart seems to be in the right place for a lot of it.

So the the momentum overall, I think it's me of of the movie. Yeah, totally. For a period of time, I was like, is this not passing the Beck Dell test? I felt like so much of this movie was like women talking about boys like a majority of the time. And I and it just like really kind of drove me nuts where I'm like, man, I really want like these girls to like talk about their interests more.

And everybody's just consistently talking about like who's dating who, you know, or when is somebody going to get married and all of that stuff. And it just it was really at a point driving me nuts where it was legitimately like up and like 40 minutes into the movie. I was like, has any is anybody here talked about anything other than just like? Yeah. When are you going to start a family? When are you going to get married? Who are you? And it was really.

And I know it was like heavily focused on like women choosing their career or like themselves versus a family life. But like it kind of is clear that it was written and directed by a man where were like, maybe they're like, this is what we're going to talk about. This is like 100 percent. Yeah. I mean, we do talk about a lot of that stuff, but I mean, they're just like we said earlier, there wasn't very there wasn't a lot of death till like a lot of stuff they were saying. Yeah, absolutely.

I enjoyed the discussions of art history. I thought that was something that was universal. That was had a universality to it, regardless of of what move you're watching about whoever, like just like the at this time, the idea within the college system, too, of pushing against Julia Roberts to not teach modern art and not to even consider it. And I like that. I like how she used the word consider the Jackson Pollock painting to consider modern art as as with, you know, the Sistine Chapel.

And even if you haven't been there, you haven't seen it in all this gatekeeping about what art should be and everything that was a side of this movie that I'd, you know, I wasn't sure what I wanted more of. It kind of does a little bit of everything it says on the surface, but that is an aspect of it overall, not to want to change the movie or anything. But that is that is an aspect that I liked.

It is a little hamfisted when she shows all the, you know, the propaganda of the advertisements of women. That's a little hamfisted. But while, but also her point is really is really valid. Oh, my God. And everything is just very like in your. Yeah. But I mean, it's a good and I like that idea that they're using advertising. It's like, is this our end? Trying to question what art is all that all that stuff, I think, was I was globbing on to a lot. Yeah. Those were some of my favorite moments.

Like, yeah, like when they were talking about art. And I liked her relationship with Julius Stiles's character. Like, I know there wasn't that much like progression from her character, but like anything, she's like a very normal woman like that. She knew what she wanted. She's like, I want to play at a law school, but I still want to get married. Like she didn't really have any conflicts and it's fine. Like you don't have to have conflicts.

Like you can also be a woman that's like, I know what I want. And her relationship with Julius Stiles or I mean, with Julia and Julia. Julia and Julia. They both, I don't know, it was just nice to have like that woman mentor in her life. And I liked that relationship a lot because it's OK. Like you don't have to like. There doesn't have to be conflict. It's OK to be a feminist and still want to do what people would say is not feminist and like get married and all that stuff.

So yeah, she elopes, she's doing exactly what she wanted to do, seems like how she wants to. And even if that is like a mutual love between her and and Topher and in figuring out what life means for both of them. But I just want to enjoy the how that story came to fruition.

That seemed to be the main thrust of the story as well because Julia Roberts and the journey that she goes on has has some to do with the art, push art history and pushing back on that and everything and how she wants to teach her classes. She has her romantic entanglements as well.

But I think how she looks at Julia Stiles character really validates all of those arcs in in one singular moment when she tries to offer her all these other law schools in the Philadelphia area and tells her that she can do it and she and she rebuffs her and tells her, you know, this is how I want to live my life.

And I think that acceptance from Julia Roberts just brings all of what she's been learning throughout the movie to a close in a pretty nice way through Julie Stiles and how vicariously Julia Roberts was trying to kind of live through her or use her as as a point, you know, within within her, you know, teaching methods at the school and everything.

And I think learning about that and how she was what she was doing with with her students and all that realized you need to look a little bit more inward and and maybe go back to her life in a different way. But yeah, there's no one way to be a feminist and you can't gatekeep being a feminist, you know, which was yeah, like this is the right way to be a feminist. This is how you do feminism. I like that moment a lot. Yeah, there is multiple ways you can be a feminist. And so.

I don't know how well, though, I like Julia Stiles as an actor because like I was really struggling with I like what her character was about. But she just has such a like. I don't know. It's not like an expressive face. It's kind of very statuette and I don't know. There's something about it that just it's at times I was like me like I miss reading her performances like she's too smart. So she's like thinking about something else and she's not present in the moment.

Or her. It's just maybe it came off to me as like an aptitude. But it just this was the like her performance, I think, was something that stuck out to me the most is being like, I don't know if she is able. Like the stuff that she had to work with, she wasn't in my mind handling it all that well.

I just I understand that like on the flip side, then there's Kirsten Dunn, who was like, wow, going like swing into the fences, like every single conversation she's in, she's like, you know, kind of got this body language thing going on. And she's just like so much as being said with her eyes and your sentences like. Who like what they're what they're tasking her with.

And I agree with you completely, but that what they're tasking her with the writing there and near the second half of this movie after she's married and going through everything that she's going through with her husband at that time and how she changes as a character is. Tough to handle as an actress in those scenes because we're like, OK, Kirsten, these next two scenes, you're going to be a complete asshole to your friends and just tear them a new one.

I know, like you're going to enter stage left. You're going to get to feel like complete shit and then leave twice in a row. And it's just like that's going to go back to my empty house. She I mean, she may she has conviction in everything that she says. And she has and she's aiming to hurt in those scenes and everything. But near the end, you're just like, whoa, geez, God.

Because she she lays it on Connie about Jennifer Goodwin about he's just trying to like he's already with somebody like you hide you from the world and and everything like that. And then she goes and then the second one, I think that was that's where it just got to be a little a little much where she just walks through the door on Maggie Dylan, the character and it's just like, yeah, well, I hear you're turning tricks. And everybody knows everybody knows it's always her move is this

and everybody knows it. You know, it's like, oh, wasn't it so she breaks down and then how she reacts to her. Yeah, she could have been like, well, I saw your fucking like asked thinking the movie and my that's my money's on that. That's where it's like this. That's what I mean, like this movie. Yes, it has its downfalls, but like it's heartwarming. It's feel good. Like it's not the greatest movie in the world, but like it has those moments.

Like I when I watched this yesterday, I like to cheer it up a couple of times. You know, because like, you know, you could have all these problems. But when you have your tribe, when you have your group of girls and they're there to support you, it's like one of the best feelings in the world. Like I mean, same for men, I'm sure, too, just to have your group of people, you know, in general, universal to me in the last scene with them. The boys. The boys.

The last thing that I'm writing the bikes and, you know, saying goodbye to her was just a really nice. Yeah, that's just I really I felt good. Yeah, she's like crying in the back of the car. And it's just it's so fucking touching because like it's great. Like I'm like, I said at the top about where this movie leaves us is she makes the decision not to return. She's going to go do this whole thing.

She doesn't know if it's going to work out, but there's just like such a like new lease on life that is going to help define this next part of her. And I am just so proud of Julia. Julia Roberts for doing it. And it made me so happy. And yeah, but that scene man with Kirsten Dunn's and Maggie Jill, which Maggie Jill and all is my favorite in the movie. I mean, it's not surprising. I'm surprised because she's like the only one that's really like outside of the school a lot of the time.

So like if if wherever, like at the bar or like just out in public somewhere, Maggie's there, everybody else is so relegated to like being on campus or Kirsten's dunces like at her, you know, home. But Maggie's like out and about town. She's been mad. Very gay. And it was surprising to me how much I liked Maggie's performance because typically I don't like her. She just has this like. Very like snooty. She's kind of got that like Anne Hathaway.

Yeah. Vibes to me sometimes where she's just like, I don't know, under smoking her cigarette and just being like, I. Yeah. So like, yeah, I'm such a Vespian, you know, it works for the. Yeah, the youthful energy kind of just works for all of that. But I'm kind of on the same boat as you. I like I like stranger than fiction. Maggie, Jill and Hall, she was getting there. We're under her. There's some other good, good roles, I'm sure, too.

But back to that emotional scene with Pearson, Doug's like, I had no idea how that was going to end, like because. The editing of this movie where Maggie was at in her like journey, it was half expecting like she's in a really tough spot to like she's going to fucking like she's going to punch her.

I seriously thought it was going to break out in a fight, you know, and then for that to happen, it was like, maybe kind of like like other earlier parts better because it seems so like smart and nuanced, like she's. Sleeping around with psychology professors, she's into psychology and then for it to like be put into action at such a moment where you could. Like not hold on to your standards or not hold on to your convictions.

Instead, she does and she goes for it and says, like, no, what this person is doing is they're hurting and I can see that and adding more pain to this isn't what this person needs. They need compassion and love to get through this because it's obviously something that's missing. And man, I was really like choked up and blown away. Yeah, I was so relieved because I was worried that I was going to get melodramatic and escalate the drama in a different way.

And I was happy and yeah, overall relieved to see it take that turn. And that's what I was saying earlier is that, like, yes, there's drama. There's things that happen to each character, but they never get too intense. Like the drama is never like too dramatic. That was the closest. At least I don't. I don't think dissipated in a great way. Yeah. Yeah, it really kind of, yeah. Because I mean, this movie could have been they get in a fight and then it's reconciliation of that, right?

Yeah. Yeah, it's more feel good. I would say this movie is more leaning towards more feel good than like it being this tragic, dramatic. Julie Roberts makes them like stands as a teacher to illustrate a lesson of showing the ads and then showing the Jackson Pollock painting. But the drama between her and the students is only at the beginning of the movie for that one scene. And then it passed that they are all one on the same team.

Apart from maybe Kirsten Dunn's writing a few shmere pieces in the paper, little yellow. And that and fucking annoying. I was like, why is all of this like stuff with the school administration being so predicated on a student right in a fucking bedpiece and a paper? Like, why aren't we if you're if you're really big part, everyone's picking up the papers like also too, because I really loved Julie at Stevenson, the like the teacher who gave the or nurse, maybe.

I don't know, like the person, the woman that gave the birth control. Like I loved her like she was awesome from jump. I was like, oh, she's got like such a cool, interesting vibe. And then they just do away with her so quickly. And I was like, fuck, man. And so then it just kind of left me being like, she got she got fired. Because I hear say in a bunch of like, where was the like, I don't know. Kind of trial or some type of like legitimate evidence and shit that came to light.

And it just to kind of fed back into this whole thing of like so much of Kirsten Dunn's is like influence on how things were going with like Julia Roberts is like, you know, relationship with the administration, all that was all just like so one student is bitching and moaning and we're just going to be like. She comes from a powerful like they were talking about how the alumni basically rule the school.

So like she comes from the alumni family and then she's married to the guy who's like parents are keeping up with the Joneses. So they all like influence the school more than anyone else. 100% yeah. And I was. Yeah, those are the Joneses. I get that. But and I know that this is a weird nitpick because I'm like, I want the movie to be longer.

I needed to have a I needed to have like a yeah, some type of yeah, like round table where they're like, OK, so here's, you know, here's the evidence and this is why and all that stuff. But anyways, it just it all kind of fed into like, God, Kirsten Dunn's is just such a little fucking shit. And I just the ability to be able to shuffle people away.

You don't think the same as you and aren't on the same like same, you know, same uniform way of way of thinking as as the rest of the school catered to the, you know, the dynamic of of what the school represented and what Julia Roberts represented and coming in there and everything and being able to illustrate that. Oh, if you get them to think too independently or on their own, then they can just shuffle you away very easily. But yeah, it's a bomber.

I mean, yeah, I would though I was waiting for that to come back in a way as well. In my mind, I thought someone was going to get pregnant because there was a lack of, you know, birth control contraception and like Maggie Jalen Hall or something in Dominic West. We're going to have a little, you know, absolutely baby bill done bar. Baby Bill. Maxi McNulty Man. We got some, uh, yeah, some, uh, good décode on older men in this movie that John John slattery cool to see. His satellables… yard.

Yeah, it's like, wow, man. You got Dominic West and John slattery slattery role while Slattery fucking rips. I love that guy. Yeah. He was caught. Yeah. He played like a politician,但 he'd have. Very cool. But yeah, I didn't care for like any of Julia Roberts's relationships. I'm like, I don't really care to get into her like love life. Like I just want her to be like invested in the students. Like I don't know. I didn't want to know about her relationship with Dominic West.

I mean, John Slattery. Slattery was glad that she didn't at least end up with either of them. Yeah, that's kind of right. But yeah, like, huh? Yeah. It didn't. Yeah, it didn't nothing really came out of it besides just her. Well, people came, James, but you know, I did. Julia Roberts and Julia. Apparently Julia Roberts's husband at the time was like on set during the love making scenes between her and Dominic West. Although why? Which is barely anything.

He worked as like some second unit director or some shit. I don't know. He like worked on the movie. Oh, okay. No, I'm not. So he had to use this in there like, I don't know, Dominic. I might do it a little differently. But don't ask me. Don't ask me. I wouldn't know. I don't know. Just there were like no sex scenes. It was just him laying by the fireplace and then yeah, it's pretty much it. Like there wasn't like any intimate moment between them. Maybe because he was on set.

Yeah, there was no actual. Yeah. Brandon said someone came. I don't know. I'm just kidding. I mean, I would have said, I guess I, yeah, you're right. I'm maybe I'm just making the assumption, but yeah, it seemed like Julian and John were having having some, yeah, having some fun sex. And then the Dominic stuff seemed yeah, what an Italian teacher. I yeah. And you got it. It's all fraud. He's a fraud. He's a phony. He's a fraud. He's a phony. He was stationed in Long Island. His his buddy was.

He was funny. Well, yeah, that was such weird energy where he. Yeah, I don't know. Like he is kind of this like bumbling nervous guy. But then when she bus in on him naked in the shower, he kind of just like stands at attention and goes like, Hey, that's her. That's such a power move. Like, yeah, I'm naked. But I'm like, oh, you look great. We did that. Right. But it's all just. Hey buddy. It's close. You put those glasses on and then it's like, wow, you look great. I'm all sudsy.

My friend's called me sudsy. Yeah, that freon, but he's like, that's the future. He will make West. Go way back to Long Island, Italy, San Remo, whatever he said, bullshit. Okay. So speed back to the infested stuff. So there's one male teacher on a at an all women's college, which I feel like is illegal. Right. Like that can't be a thing. Yeah. Is that it? I don't know. If that's a thing or not only for Italian, only for the link, the language of Italian looking as Dominic was.

Yeah. Only. Yeah. It just to me, I, I, yeah, these are the things that like stops my brain and I get wrapped up while I'm watching these movies. I just like literally for, I feel like five minutes. I was just like thinking about like, I don't think that would, they would do that. Like it would be a female perfectionist. Like, why would, and then the crazy thing is that the one male teacher at the college is hooking up with the students. I know you're like, and it's okay.

Well, why is it just getting away with this? Like, I don't know. And they seem so anal about everything else. They brought it up so many times and I'm like, why are they still? Like doesn't get punished or anything. He's just like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He's like, he like doesn't get punished or anything. He's just like, don't do it. It's really, really, Rob. I'm just like, just don't do that. He speaks a little Italian. He gets his way out of it. Yeah. I, oh man.

Yeah. No, totally. And it just, it's, it's too like, it's too stereotypical. You know, it's like a good, good looking Italian teacher at the all girl school is hooking up with his students. Okay. Right. Uh-huh. And yeah, it is weird because since we really only are with the main cast, it then comes off as like everybody knows about the, him sleeping with people. So then it just seems like since we don't see anybody else's perspective on campus.

So it just kind of seems like the whole campus understands that Mr. Bar is hooked up with his students and everybody just understands that, but somehow he, his position at the school is never in question. He never has any issues with the president. Like there isn't anything dealt with it. It's so bizarre for a movie about. Like. Progressive, you know, you know, kind of. Lifestyles and ideologies. Like you're just going to have such a. Archaic, stereotypical situation happen.

Strange, but at the same time, the double standard for the man, I guess would be the thing. It's like, uh, first of all, this was made in 2003. So of course, like, we'll just brush that off. Yeah. No, even like when I was like watching Dawson's Creek when I was young or like a couple of years ago, I was like, Oh, like Katie Holmes sleeps with her. One of her professors and it's just like part of the thing. So I don't know. It was 10 marina. I was going to say. Oh my God.

That's so funny. Oh, it's funny to see him play like a serious role. It is hilarious to see that because he has been such a goof. I know. Seriously, too. Like he's not like trying to be. Your ironic or anything like that. It's great. Yeah. But yeah, that was just like kind of a thing. And. I don't know. Like, but then I don't know. Like, okay. You get, I actually am just not sure about this, but like when you're in college, you are what? Like 20? Are you 21 in college?

You started 18 and then you go till you're 21. So. Legal. Like I don't know how that works in college. Like high school would be definitely weird. But like, are they trying to say like, Oh, like. You are per your progressive living so you can. You can. I don't know. She just doesn't hold it fully against him. She just says no more from here on out. Like while we're together, you cannot do it, but she does not say like, she does not pass any judgment beyond. Yeah. Don't do it anymore.

Yeah. She's involved now, but. She doesn't seem to hold it. She's willing to get entangled with him after the fact. So. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense. Yeah. That's a good. I was talking about Maggie Gyllenhaal's character. Like. Is it fine? Yeah. Yeah. Is that fine because she's like of age and it's her decision. Like, I don't know. I'm not sure what kind of school code there could be a school code. That's like, Hey. There's for sure. You know, you can't do that.

Yeah. That was what I was working out. Maybe she, yeah, maybe. Because it would be consensual. They could just suspend or expel or something like deal with it within the school, internally within the school, but it wouldn't have to be anything beyond that. Maybe. But even like in the movie, like everyone on campus seems to know and they're getting away with it. So me.

Yeah, it's really, yeah, it's a poor job by the movie to have that thing because some sort of consequence or come coming of no, right. At some point at the end for him, you know, could be something that would be nice of him losing his position, you know, and. But maybe that's it. The fact that he doesn't, it's his point in itself too is that he gets, yeah, the double standard of being able to do whatever the hell he wants while the women get to get scrutinized more.

Yeah, but doesn't take that doesn't take the efforts to illustrate that point too far either. So whatever. But I think the stuff with John Slattery too was left much to be desired in like what the point that was being made because. He is established as like, I will live here with you. Like I will go, you know, uproot myself, go follow you all of this. And then she just like immediately is dismissive about it.

And then it ends really abruptly and really kind of ends off screen almost like the official ending of it. Obviously it's like alluding to that, you know, leading up to, you know, with the bar scene and the engagement and all that stuff. But it's like, I just really didn't understand. It's not that I didn't understand. It's just, I think the movie poorly handled what that was supposed to represent of like, right, she's not going to. Settle down.

Get married or change her life because he wants to do that. But again, it's just weird that you kind of established that he is so willing to work with her on whatever it takes to get there. To a degree, I understand that like he is proposing without her really expecting it. So there is a little bit of like, you know, is he as considerate to her like where she's at and all that, but I don't know.

It just, again, it just came off as like weird that you would establish that he is such a like so in love and so willing to change his life and accommodate and then that causes her to just drop him like so quickly. I just wanted John Slattery around more. Maybe that's how I know I did enjoy him. Like, damn it. You got rid of Juliet Stevenson and John Slattery.

It's definitely quickly definitely could have been fleshed out more in him showing up after three months and immediately doing that, maybe set her in a different way, but it could have fleshed out a little bit of more like confronting her reasonings of letting that relationship die when it possibly had the possibility of that marriage commitment. Is that what scared her?

Is someone can confront her about that and have her actually be a little bit vulnerable about those feelings and said she just kind of goes on a rebound and it's never really addressed beyond that and she's just kind of in a, yeah, a state of motion, but there's not a lot of resonance on some of these more dramatic things. There's kind of blow ups here and there, but it doesn't resonate and a lot of the other things. Yeah, but should we kind of... Marsha Gayhardin? Topher Grace?

I feel like we haven't really talked... I mean, I love Marsha Gayhardin. She's an amazing actress. I think just this is a role that maybe she's typecast into a lot of ways, but then also part of it is that kind of, yeah, obviously the housewife and everything and that kind of like church lady, I think of like the fog or the mist or whatever, the mist and she's kind of like crazy church lady in that one.

And I think that side of it of, yeah, she is maybe straight lace housewife, sort of type a person, but with a lot of her characters, there's this underlying either sadness or sort of... Discontent, yeah. Yeah, or she's not fully convinced into her own line of thinking even though she expresses it and how things should be. The way that she portrays that little subtle being off is really great in a lot of performances.

And I thought her at the bar with that bartender was one of the highlights of her performance in this movie, amongst others, but her getting a little shit face and kind of revealing the truth of her husband of not being really dead and just running off without her. But then she still holds him with such reverence, is such an interesting sort of dynamic of... So interesting. And I think that's the kind of person of having it.

For a movie that does have a lot of one-dimensional sides of it with the characters. That was a moment that was a little bit more complicated in terms of how she processes her emotions and how she still... Her ability to rationalize her in her mind and hold this man to such esteem and her just by mere fact that she married him kind of puts her in a higher place in her own way too. But then her being able to just hang out and watch TV and enjoy herself and Julie Roberts is like, let's go out.

Let's do something. She's like at school night. Let's watch TV this time. And Julie Roberts is trying to force her to do something that she doesn't really want to do. She is content with what she's doing at home and how she's living her life. And that was another lesson I thought for Julie Roberts to be like, hey, maybe freedom isn't what I want for everyone else. Freedom is what they want for themselves. And she wants to stay home and watch. I love Lucy and I can't really blame her.

Even though Lucy's a commie. Oh my God. But I mean, that's an amazing point. I don't really have much to add to it. I think you said that really well. I mean, just the, you know, she operates as the ying to the yang of Julia Roberts. And there's a lot of that situation, you know, a lot of those types of situations in the movie, but you're absolutely right. Like she does provide that other side just like Julia rock or Julia Styles does for her.

And those are, yeah, those are strong points in the movie where, you know, because like you said earlier, James, of how the kids get on board with her pretty quickly into the movie. So those points of contention or those conflicts with her in fleshing out and making more whole and providing more depth to Julia Roberts as characters, all good. It's all really, really good stuff. And a lot of those TV shows, man. Yeah. I feel like I haven't heard about a couple of them.

I guess the song at one point, but that was like, they're trying to catch. Essentially it was, it was like winning a date with like a handsome man or something, but part of it was like him singing a song and then guessing the song. Speaking of music, the music was fun and it's been consent. I love that. And then Tori Amos. Yeah. Yeah. If we want to, I have a little music here. I want to hear that.

I just want to give a sample of what that was like because she was the singer and I believe the wedding scene. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. The whole. Who's invited to the wedding? He says, in that impossible. We really get a good shot of her and then like in the movie, I was just like, yeah, who is this person? My future is right on the horizon. Tell them that the horizon is an imaginary line that recedes as you approach it. Because of you. What a really nice time. Thank you. That's nice.

Thank you. Thank you. Send me photographs. Just remember when a dream appears. She's too good for you. Maybe you're right. Yeah. This whole scene is kind of singing to the background. He's got a wife and kids and a mortgage. Her drink is a little bit of a lot. It was all good. The white. Thank you guys. Yeah. Tori Ames and yes, just some fun music kind of streamed throughout. The score, I guess, is okay. The music really pops and I think it's because the score is just so generic.

Yeah. It's very like pull off the shelf. I have a, you know, a period piece movie in the early 2000s, late 90s. Like, yeah, we got the B sides from Ciderhouse rules. You think that'll work? Right. Absolutely. Yeah. All of those movies just like, yeah, I don't know. Fucking dead poets. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing. I mean, you mentioned Tofer Grace. He was, he was, uh, he was good.

I mean, I always liked seeing Tofer like in the, I think that role, like, uh, he, he feels, feels pretty well. And he's, I guess he took some dancing lessons for the scene with Julia, but I, yeah, I guess I like how he portrays more of the benign weird side of the toxic masculinity and patriarchy sort of thing where it's like, he's just like, this is how it is. Like it's going to be great.

And he's not like imposing on Julia styles in this way that's like, she's got to, she's my girl and she's got to do all this stuff for me. I mean, he's just like, this is just the way of life.

And this is how, and he's, he's just in such a more like complicit sort of, uh, not even, not even considerate sort of way to be inconsiderate would, would be one of the things that you could love the against him and, and not purposefully, but not like actively once you, once she confronts Julia styles about it, she's like, no, this is what we agreed upon us and we wanted to elope. And that's what we decided. So I don't know.

You never, you never get a moment where Julia styles ever says like, this is not what I want. So it's, it's hard to really love me too much against him, but he's there definitely is a part of him that's wrapped up in the times that this is occurring in the role, gender roles of, of the time. I mean, Tofer, man, yeah, it's just good at playing that. Uh, yeah, I don't know. He just, it's the way that he talks.

It gets to me where he's just, it's very, it's like his, um, kind of forgetting his character on, um, that's a new show on that 70s show, but it just, he's got this, um, it's not, he's a confident guy, but a confident idiot. Yeah. Simpleton. Simpleton. Just kind of like, yeah, kind of, yeah. I like that side of him. Yeah. Me too. Me too. It's, um, because yeah, there was plenty of scenes in the movie where it showed him being considerate.

It's not, yeah, it's not like you got the idea that he was really controlling of Julia styles, which yeah, I mean, that's to the credit of the movie because it's a lot of the times this movie doesn't, uh, I don't know. I would argue it doesn't handle all things that it's trying to do very well, but, um, I think setting up his character in that way. So you don't really think about, you know, toe for being like quote unquote controlling of Julia styles.

And you really can kind of believe that, um, Julia styles is a partner and an active participant in the decision making that she's talking about going on as opposed to like, because you know, it's, it's very close in proximity, uh, to a very poor relationship with Kirsten Dunst and her husband.

And so there is a little bit of muddying of like men are making decisions for women and that is a problem that this movie would like to address, whether it does it fully well as, you know, like just been talking about this whole time. But, um, yeah, I don't know. I think Topher does understand the assignment well. Um, and it is overall, yeah, I don't know, kind of funny. You know, he just, his energy kind of like, he's like a golden retriever. He's just like, yeah. Right. Oh, she's beautiful.

Isn't she beautiful? Oh, she's so wonderful. Oh, she's the best. You're the bell of the bell of my ball. He doesn't like know what's going on. He's like not aware of dynamics, but he just like shows up and he's like, one of the introductory scenes of him is at this wedding, I believe, where he and the boys and the boys, they're like, all the, all the girls are like, look so well put together and, and beautiful. And, uh, they're having conversations and everything. And the men are sweaty.

Have their shirts all like pulled up and everything and they're throwing around a fucking thing of bread as a football. And they're just inside. They're like, go along. And it's just a piece of bread or that he's like, and it's like, tofer, come on. When introducing, he's like, Hey, how's it going? You're so beautiful. Wow. What a beautiful day. Oh, throw me the bread, Jeremy. He has no problems in life. No straight. I know, man.

He just could understand if you would actually sit him down to be like, Hey, buddy. Yeah. So some real shits going on. Yeah. That's so funny to think about him. He's just like, yeah, nothing's going wrong with Tofer Grace's character in the slightest. He is like, no one's told him know his whole life. When is fully behind him, just pushed him along in life and everything's just like, you know, this is how it is. This is how things go.

He's got a beautiful, smart girl that's like, you know, and he's got his like best pal and they're going to like all and be happy for some together, you know, married and have kids and their kids are going to be friends and then he loves vanilla ice cream cone. They give him the dog. Yeah. Puppet. Yeah. Puppet. You know, for the guy in the back, it's like, roll the down the window in the back. It's tofer. It's tofer. Puppet. You know, well, yeah, I'm done to go into some reviews.

If you guys are there is one thing I just I can't be remiss to mention is I thought it was so funny to me how all of the guys at the all boys school react to a girl over like in their dormitory. It just cracked me. Oh, that was funny. Yeah. Because I was like, these guys are such dorks. They are such dorks. What are you talking about? You're going to bang the door down. Oh, you can't have a girl in here. Hey, don't get the fuck out of here. Oh my God, the drill.

At least the girls have the cool like little hangout where you had to raise your hands in the air and and solemnly swear you're up to no good. And there you had a bunch of booze. Yeah, girls are cool. Okay. Yeah. I want to play the cello that would just like fun. It's just like cooler than those guys on that dorm to hang out and you just got a cello there. You just add dramatic effect to certain things you were saying like you did. She's like, why do you have to be so difficult?

I love the cello. God, I want to slip past part of the whole movie. Number one instrument I want to want to learn one day. Why are you always like this? She's like, Kirsas being like an asshole or something like, can you just lighten up? Yeah, my Jack Jackson Polluxy and I thought was, I guess, we haven't mentioned too much about that. I thought that was a strong point in the movie. And I really, again, loved how she told them. Good. That's all you had to do. Don't.

Yeah, you don't have to whatever I'm paraphrased, but you just have to consider it. You don't have to do it in assignment. You don't have to do anything. You just have to consider it and I love that.

And I think that message is something that was a coming of age thing for me of recognizing modern art as into consider it as with anything else that's ever occurred in history and putting it on the same level as everything else and embracing the time that you're living in and the trend setters of your day is something to be excited about.

And I would recommend and consider everyone's choices in life, you know, like just don't judge someone because they don't choose the same thing as you or have the same values as you just consider it. Like just consider why they are like that and why. At least try to make that your default setting. Sure. You can consider it not like choices being made. You know, and from there on whatever.

But like, you know, if you just if you start from this is more of a neutral thing, I'm going to just consider it as a thing that exists. Then I can stack my own opinion. I mean, that is really, really such a healthy thing to do in life in general. One thing I'll say about the Jackson Pollack is just I love fucking modern art so much and it blew me away again. I feel like I will.

This will probably happen multiple times every time I just consider Jackson Pollack as an artist of what year it was when he was making art, when he passed away. It is so contemporary that you're like, wait a minute, he made that in the late 40s. Like what are you talking about? Like, oh, just the lack of convention, the just pure expression like, oh my God, it was it. I had to look it up again of like. Like, for some reason, I was like, no, Jackson Pollack was making art in the late 60s.

Like that's when he had to be making art. It's not. He was making it in the 40s. Actually went through the same experience. I started reading this book that I got from LACMA of these artists from New Mexico. They're like transcendental. They're the transcendental painting group. And I was like, oh my God, these paintings are like out of the world. So surreal. It must have been like the 80s or something. It actually looks like similar to this kind of style and color palette.

And it was like, yeah, I think it was like 30s or 40s. And they are just like ahead of their time. Oh my God. Like artists are incredible. I know this sounds so cheesy, but like they are just so ahead of their time sometimes that like people don't people don't appreciate that stuff till later on or, you know. Absolutely, and it's like this interview.

I'm sure, Kara, maybe you've seen it with Ethan Hawke and he talks about the importance of art and he's like more often than not, people don't value or or they don't value art until they really need it. And it's one of those things where, you know, you can't just.

It has to be something that you're feeding into often for it to be vibrant and alive and full of so much expression, because if you're just cyclically like not contributing to it or not propping it up more often than most of us do when we only really seek out like art is we crave it at times when we're at our highest when we're at our lowest, all of these things.

And it's just so incredibly important to the human experience to have artists like this that show you, you know, just like what Jackson Pollock it's like, you know, it's. It's just like the artist before him where you made that shift over like the start of postmodernism with like, you know, you're moving away from technicalities being such a driving force and like what is good art is that it's technically immaculate.

And as opposed to like, no, what art can be is just trying to make the most accurate representation of emotion, whether or not he has anything to do with it. Yeah. It's timeless. Like if you think about it. I'm not even though I said ahead of the head of their time, it's also timeless and very simple simplicity. And it's just something that we, I mean, I'd like to say most people just understand naturally by looking at it is that like it feels familiar. Yeah, absolutely.

I yeah, it's man, what a it's I forgot that Jackson Pollock also like died in a car crash, which I think really, yeah, also kind of an interesting thing because of, you know, I don't know, it's God like people having cars readily available to them. I feel like they're like 25 years into into that being a thing. And then yeah, yeah, he's also raging alcohol and apparently enormous asshole. But you know, but you know, artists are, you know, have it, I don't know.

There's a there is a stereotype that exists about artists being tortured and not necessarily great hangs. But man, yeah, Jackson Pollock cool guy in his art, not cool guys and artists. Well, let's see what some people have to say about this piece of art. The Mona Lisa, should we start with some critic reviews? Are they reviewing the art or the movie? Yes. Right. What is our car comes to town? I'm considering it. Did you read your supplemental material before coming to this podcast?

This is grotesque. Is it art? You may listen art. The grotesque side. And what did Robert's like, even though Andy Warhol is not in like making, I don't know, maybe he was making art at this time, but like he's not who he was until later past this movie.

But man, the point she was making with the advertisements is so just all of it was a case for why Andy Warhol would be a thing, you know, is just because she I can't remember what the line is, but talking about like, you know, aliens or like people in the future, like looking at this period of time in art and identifying advertisements is like, or it would be synonymous like art and advertisements would be the same thing.

And yeah, I can't remember exactly how the quote went, but it was just such a like pretty salient point as to, you know, what would end up being, you know, Andy Warhol's whole thing, you know, understanding that very well. Yeah, and Banksy too. Yeah, Banksy too. Absolutely. Did I mention that I'm Banksy? Anyways, we all knew that. We'll start with David Anson from Newsweek says it's P. U. Rotten because the critics gave it a 34% average poopy-doopie snoopy meter on the Rotten Tomatoes scale.

David Anson says the cartoon notions of the 50s and snooty Easterners say more about Hollywood cluelessness than about the period the film condescends to lacking the courage of its own vulgarity. The Mona Lisa smile is as tepid as old bathwater. Oh, Neve Pierce from B. B. C. Dot coms. Jacob Elordi bathwater or what do we got settled down? Neve Pierce from P from BBC dot com says it's devoid of enjoyment, intelligence or interest. One star out of five.

From Elizabeth Tamney, Chicago reader one one out of four. Roberts asks her students rhetorical questions. What makes art good or bad? Who decides? But the movie answers them as canonically as the syllabus Roberts abandons. Hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah, from Claudia Puyg two out of four from USA Today. Rather than being a fascinating exploration of a much more constrained time in our social history, the film simply feels anachronistic.

Yeah. It is interesting to think about just from if you were to, you know, like how critics write about things, you know, a movie about art lacks a lot of artistry. And it's like the way that it's presented or shot, you know, that's just, I don't know, this. Yeah, for a movie that begs a lot of questions, what is art and makes challenges that conception and notion, yeah, there is like almost zero kind of that mentality applied to the. Yeah, the filmmaking of this is pretty crazy.

And then we'll do one more from Tom Long, Detroit News, give it a C. Tom DeLong. Tom DeLong. Hey, it's Tom DeLong here. Where are you? Where are you? He's like, I did not like it because there are no aliens. Would not watch. I give all movies that don't have aliens a C out of five. Tom Long says an underachieving film about how much women can achieve. Acting actors of such potential seems more than a bit cynical even by Hollywood standards. Let's see what the audience has to say now.

From a 60 percent tile, six zero percent from the audience. They liked it a bit more than the critics. Let's check out some scores. We'll start with Glenn Wilkinson. Five stars titled great movie. I love this movie and I teach art appreciation at our local college. I use this movie to teach students about stereotypes and through art, we can learn from our past in each other. It is much easier after they watch the movie Pollock and then see his work in this movie.

It's a great film to start a dialogue. Highly recommend a plus to start a dialogue. From Abigail Brissette, five stars titled this movie is extremely brilliant. I feel so bad that I've only just seen it. I'm 21 working to pay for medical school. I've been feeling discouraged and felt like settling for something less or perhaps take the easy way. But this movie have moved me to tears and action. Women building up each other is truly the best.

I will make sure to share this with my younger sisters if my future holds it. My very own daughters from Isabelle, great title, great film, five stars. I like how the girls also change the teacher and the small plot to a suffer being the one that is actually ignorant to two others feelings. Acting is amazing.

Some of the best actresses are on this film has many strong female roles and may be able to teach young women to not conform into the roles that society could sometimes wants to put them in would strongly recommend this great film. Maybe do one or two more here. Um, well, yeah, I'll do this one from William C. Lloyd, five stars titled a work of art. I'm amazed to have read reviews, including David Denby's in the New Yorker that completely missed the main point of the movie.

The women's choice thing, 50s feminism is the plotline on which to hang a story, but the movie is about a teacher of art history who it's hard to miss teaches art history and thereby helps young people discover themselves and the world. It's about the necessity of art education and that necessity includes great music too. But for that specific notion, we have the equally wonderful Mr. Holland's opus. Oh, okay, William.

All right, well, you can't just end the review with a different movie, William. Yeah, I don't know. There's a there's a lot I've noticed from here on these reviews that seem to be from teachers. There's another one here from Melissa Hardman as a female professor. I can relate to this film if you're a teacher student. This is my seat. This was set in the 50s, but it's surprisingly relevant to what I see in the classroom today. Wow. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. The teachers seem to enjoy I would I would imagine to just to be able to tell a bunch of no at all punk ass students to think a little differently about their own stuck up lives. No, it's it's it's inspiring. I think from both sides from if you see yourself as someone who has to try to encourage someone to be themselves, how do you teach that?

How do you tell someone to be independent and be themselves in that sort of way and and to be independent and do what what they want to do and to shape their minds that way. And so from both sides, whether you're a young person watching this movie from a coming of age side or you're an older person watching it, trying to figure out that dynamic of things. And there's a little bit of a love life. There's a little bit of everything.

But yeah, it's a I think it's kind of a pretty fluffy, nice TV movie in terms of like the polarization and why people are kind of disagreeing on it. I think it's clear that the critics are craving for something a little deeper. And I can kind of I feel like field both sides and understand where the critics are coming from there. But it's not enough for me to completely hate it either. But it's not enough for me on the from the audience side either to like be raving about it.

So I think it's a little preview into probably where I'll lie, but I'll leave it to you, Kara, if you want to start off our own review process here. Yeah, so I think, yeah, I, I also see both sides. And I think overall, I think it's just to feel good, heartwarming, you know, movie you can throw on when you just, you know, just it is kind of empowering and uplifting in a way too.

And I think the movie itself, the main message is actually not about the art, but like about just considering all the really needs really wants to watch Mr. Holland's opus again. I think he's he's thinking about that one. He are, I mean, yeah, it's more about considering all perspectives of life and art and all that. So I think that's kind of the main message. And I, I like to live that way too. So I resonate with that.

And yeah, I don't know if I would care to watch it again anytime soon, but yeah, it's like a, it could be kind of considered a cozy movie. So I'd give it a 68, which is a, like I was debating if I wanted to go somewhere between like 60 and 70. And I just felt like 63 was a little too low. 65 was just like right in the middle. I would say a 68 because it wasn't horrible. Like I liked the message of it. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. No, all things considered that's a good score.

Yeah. And I love Julia Roberts. Like she, I mean, I'm a 90s baby. So I grew up watching all her movies and she's just like a warm blanket to me every time I see her on screen. Like there's just so something so comforting about her that like, yeah, maybe this wasn't her best performance, but like it was still so comforting to see her on screen. Like I just, I felt like she was like giving me a big hug. Oh, totally. She's, yeah, oh my God, she's such a like approachable.

She's just such a like grounded. Yeah. Yeah. Like she is like a movie star that like I think of like of my time, like of like growing up. I was one of the big movie stars, but I just, you know, like Tom Hanks and all those people, like they're just remind me of cozy times. Totally. Yeah. I get. Yeah, man. Um, James, me, you either way. Us together. Together. Against an Opal. Um, Istanbul. Constantinople. Constantinople. And then bam bam Mona Lisa Mona Lisa.

You got to love a movie song title thing. Um, yeah, I ended up enjoying this movie a lot more than I weirdly thought I was going to, I don't know, for some reason, since most people haven't really talked about it, I thought this was going to be really long and boring and bad. Um, because yeah, there's, you know, the cover alone has like. The, you know, has that all of, not all of them, but most of them on that. And so yeah, I don't know. There's, I was a little concerned about that.

But then after watching it, I was pleasantly surprised in a lot of ways by this movie. I thought there was a lot here that I was like, Oh, that's what this is about. And I'm here for it. Um, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of my criticisms and why I wouldn't rate this higher or maybe watch it as watch it, you know, like too often is I would say mainly is the directing of it. The way this movie like looks and how it moves through stuff. I, yeah, I don't know.

It's kind of crazy to me because I always say that, uh, Goblet of fire is my favorite Harry Potter movie. And I love the way that that's structured and what's going on in that movie. And it's the same director. That's what I thought. Okay. Yeah. Reviews with him. Harry Potter's. Um, and this movie, yeah, it's. You know, like, uh, some, like the critics were kind of giving it, uh, you know, shit for, I agree with them that for a movie about art, this is not very artistic.

And it's like, and how it is made or presents itself or visually, whatever. Um, so yeah, I don't know. Um, you've said by and large, most of the stuff that, you know, we had issues with or I had issues with whatever. So yeah, I'm like at a 65% is I think where I would put myself on this. Stop it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be right there with you guys.

There's a structure to this movie that I think in a way, Kara is cozy and, and you, and you do kind of know the broad strokes of where it's, where it's going, where I was surprised where we're seeing like the scene with Kirsten Dunson, Maggie Jillon Hall, uh, where that made me like, yeah, relieved in one sense, but like that.

I was in a place with a movie that was able to be a little bit more delicate with some of those things and wouldn't just resort straight to yelling and screaming when the drama was going to get intense near the end of the movie. I was a little concerned that it was headed there and ended up being a softer landing and I appreciated that from emotion, from an emotional standpoint. Um, it didn't force Julie Roberts to end up with anybody. It gave power to, to Julia Styles.

Um, Julie Styles is that her, is that her name? Julia Styles. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, there's, you know, I thought it was not super interesting to look at. Unfortunately, this movie, there was some lighting that I thought was, that was nice in certain places beyond that it was serviceable at best. Um, yeah. I forgot to mention that I love, I loved watching the costumes. Costumes are great.

Yeah. That's, I think that's like what made me enjoy it a little bit more was just like watching all the costumes. Definitely agree. Agree with that. Especially like, yeah, like kind of winter. Kind of warm or sorry, like, yeah, the warm clothes, whatever you want to just go cold weather and having a, like, I don't know, even some of the college attire and stuff like that of, of that time period of them wearing all their funny little hats to graduation and stuff like that.

And, uh, how loose they were kind of like when they would kind of be hanging at home and how, especially Maggie, a character like Maggie Jolenhall would just kind of like, you know, roll up the sleeves or whatever and that, and that kind of thing when she was wearing pants. More so than the other girls. All that fulfills the characters in, in, uh, interesting way.

And yeah, there's just, there's some dead ends with some of the subplots that don't end up really paying off and doing a lot for me, but overall great cast and some good performances that carry you through a coming of age story where teachers bring heralding these, these group, this group of young girls into their future in, in the time period and a period piece as well, which I tend to have a fun time with period pieces if they're done in a way that I never really

question like, ooh, this is like I said, or this is, this doesn't feel real. It's like, no, this is really, they filmed a lot at the school and they, uh, yeah, and they, the costumes were, were good in that way. And I'm going to join you guys in the 60 range. I'll do a 62, um, right there with you guys. And I think it very much works as like a TV movie. I would see why it would be on TBS or TNT or something.

And if I were at a hotel or something and it was, and it was, you know, I might flip it, flip through it and, and stay on that for a bit and flip on and come back. I don't know. We'll see. But, uh, for now, that's where I'm going to leave it. And I'm happy we have to say that I watched it. I don't know. Yeah, me too. Yeah. All in all,

we're not knowing anything about it. And I think if you do know something about it, you know, it's going to be that teacher kind of movie, like a dead poet society or, or Emperor's Club or whatever. Uh, then you'll kind of know generally if you're going to be into it or not. Uh, thank you Cara so much for, for joining us. I was going to say, yeah, there was this other thing. There was some drama with even the school too.

I was just going to mention some of that so much. So like the Wellesley school, once the movie came out, there was like some, some people that were upset, like the alumni were upset with how like the teachers and the people who were a part of the school in the movie were portrayed. Uh, and they were, and they were pissed off about it. And it made such a, they made such a stink about it that the, who was it? The president? Yeah. President wrote a letter in January 9th of 2004.

Maybe I'll read you just a little bit of it here, just in, in her response to, uh, everyone's feelings about the movie after it came out. We've been hearing from many alumni who have been feeling pressure to defend the college and the quality of their own education against the distorted and demeaning portrayal of our alma mater in the film, Mona Lisa Smile, released over the holidays and movie theaters across the country.

Several alumni have asked for help from the administration in their efforts to set the record straight. The loyal support of alumni as vocal ambassadors for the college is an indispensable ingredient of Wellesley's continued success. With that in mind, I want to update you on steps we at the college have been taking to cushion the impact of the film and offer a few general observations about the situation from where I sit.

First, it's important to keep in perspective the fact that the film is a Hollywood fantasy, set in an imaginary 1953 to 1954 academic year. The authors, two men, conducted research in our archive and set the screenplay at a fictional Wellesley College. Our name is in the public domain and we cannot have prevented its use and we tried, which we didn't. Wellesley has become the iconic women's college for good and ill and was selected for that reason as the setting for this work of fiction.

Second, we had no control over the film, no influence whatsoever on any editorial or artistic decisions. The movie to a far greater extent than the screenplay we originally read characterizes the college as rigid and hide-bound and the students as rich and spoiled. This creates a foil against which the Julie Roberts character and art history teacher from California can attack the conservative Morris she finds at this elite and stodgy college in icy New England.

Wellesley provides the backdrop against which she challenges the administration and inspires her students to look beyond the image of what is and consider the possibilities of what could be and so we are told. Opinion has been ranging wildly and at the college and beyond about how effectively the movie conveys its message, how accurately it captures the guise of the 50s and how resonant its message is today. Many professional critics have faulted the film for lack of subtlety.

Many of us have identified liberties taken with the Wellesley College we know, yet the film does attempt to raise genuine questions about women's life choices, whether one must choose between career and family and how to find one's own path when it may conflict with society's expectations or those of parents, professors, friends. We allowed Revolution Studios to film on our campus for a total of about 10 days. They shot other parts of the film on other campuses and in other locales.

Most of the interior scenes are at Columbia and Yale, the town is Terry Town, New York. We decided to permit some filming at the college because, one, the producers had already decided to set the movie at Wellesley College and the choice we faced was whether to allow them to shoot footage on our campus instead of other campuses that they would then have called Wellesley.

Since the beauty of our campus is a matter of special pride, the answer seemed obvious and the shots of the campus are indeed spectacular. The early version of the script, which several of us read and discussed before granting permission for the filming, emphasized the intelligence of Wellesley students and their close mentoring relationships with dedicated faculty. Two of the college's paramount strengths. I'm going a little long here, but they're...

They're really well put together, like, I don't know, kind of statement, you know, it's really... Yeah, and then they bring up the Time Magazine review and this is where it starts to get into... Like, overall, I'll read this last part. All of this is good. All of this is to the good and bolsters my confidence that the movie is unlikely to do us any lasting damage, whatever we may think of it.

I do very much regret, however, the distress it has caused many alumni, especially alumni who are students in the 50s, and I'm grateful for the many op-ed articles, interviews, and letters so the editor through which Wellesley alumni all across the country have been speaking out to correct the historical record and standing up for the college. And at one point she even mentions there has been an uptick in applications to the college and people wanting to come.

So she's like, whether it's actually doing harm is tough to say because we're actually becoming more popular. But I'm sorry if it's inaccurate and if it's hurt anybody's feelings to be portrayed that way. Sorry if I went a little bit long there, but I thought that was an interesting side of polarization that applies to this podcast because people that had the movie made and a part about them were not happy with how it turned out.

Some maybe were and so much so that they had to go through this whole statement and very legal sort of way of expressing everything. But it is funny how there's like very passive aggressive digs at things like whether the movie was subtle enough. And then the parentheses was like this movie was also parentheses written by two men. Two men?

So I was trying to like dig at the movie and every chance it seemed like it could but then also recognize that it's giving them attention and they're appreciating it. It's giving attention. I just, yeah. Kara again for joining us. That was just another little side of things, side tangent. We appreciate you adding a side of this that was desperately needed, which was from a woman and it would have felt weird to to have just two dudes just talking and going at least a smile.

And this is a movie that we had nothing to do about going in. And thank you for coming in and helping us just add that perspective, which was sorely needed a lot on this podcast to be honest, but not for this next movie. We're going to have a different sort of feel for this one. Arguably the opposite. Arguably the complete opposite movie we will be doing next week, which will be die hard with the vengeance. 1995 die hard with the vengeance rated a 59% by critics, 83% by audience.

In this die hard sequel, Detective John McClain is now divorced, alcoholic and jobless after getting fired for this reckless behavior and bad attitude. The movie is called back into action. However, when a cryptic terrorist Jeremy Irons takes New York City hostage in a lethal game of Simon says and refuses to speak with anyone but McClain. Seeming up with street savvy electrician named Zeus Carver, Samuel Jackson McClain dashes through the city, trying to say one step ahead of a murderous plot.

You're more than welcome to. I think we're all. Hello Mona Lisa. Thank you so much for joining us everyone out there. Reach us twitch.tv slash polarized pod we're streaming live or send us a line at gmail.com slash polarized the pod. The Gmail is polarized the pod at gmail.com. We love you all. We appreciate your service to polarizing movie discussions and we will see you next time. Bye bye. Oh God. Okay, I'm gonna get that. Oh, my God.