The Morality of Meat

but more broadly, the politics of eating. We then travel to India where Dr Yameni n Ryan and discusses the politicization of beef in India and in particular what happens when cal protection laws and dietary regulations are codified as

a means of marginalizing lower caste and Muslims. And finally we go to the Dominican Republic with East and Batista activists and owner of Woke Foods, who discusses her ongoing activism through plant based recipes as a means of healing and restoration, the politics of meat and diet, diet and identity today on point of Origin, it's the morality of meat. I've officially not eaten meat since that is Alicia Kennedy, And it was something I had always been interested in,

something I'd always been attracted to as an idea. Alicia is a writer based in San Juan, Puerto Rico, whose writing explorers not only the politics of food, but also the interconnected elements of culture, climate, and access. There was something about it that always made sense to me, But lifestyle wise, it was too difficult when I was a younger person who wasn't in control of of what she ate, wasn't in control of, you know, all her money, um

to make that decision for myself. And also there was the fact that for a long time, vegan and vegetarian food had a terrible reputation, and it earned that reputation. The food was a bit bland, it was um, it was a white gaze turned towards global cuisine and and done improperly without the correct um, you know, either cooking methods or without the correct spices and what have you.

And that wasn't something I was interested in because I've always been a person who, first and foremost, even while I believe food is you know, utterly entrenched in all the systems of that both oppress and exalt us as human beings. It is also, you know, first and foremost something that we have to enjoy every day of our lives. And Alicia, how did you feel about the prevailing mainstream

notions around veganism at that time? I mean, I hated them, but at the same time I understood them because I understood that they were rooted in the same things that kept me from not embracing veganism until I was able to ensure that it wouldn't taste bad, you know, like so um. And I still understand even you know Anthony Bourdain's kind of grandma rule, which is, you know, if someone invites you to dinner, you eat what they serve you. Yeah,

David Chang, it's funny. That's a funny aspect of it, because he was so anti vegetarian that he was like, I'm never serving anything vegetarian at Mamafuku, etcetera, etcetera. And then he became the first spokesperson basically for Impossible Burghers and was like, oh, finally, the veggie burger is delicious, and it's like, well, you never really tried to make it delicious otherwise, and also probably haven't had that many

veggie burgers. And then one comes along that's taken you know, millions of dollars to develop and bleeds slightly and you know, looks exactly like meat, and finally, you know, it's accepted into the pantheon of the fine dining restaurants, and so you know, it's all just very predictable. The emphasis on it needing to bleed. It's something that really stuck with me after the conversation because obviously, in the US, not only eating but cooking meat is seen as a gendered act.

So it's funny but also not surprising that in order for a plant based meat to be considered acceptable, it needed not only to bleed but also a masculine champion. A lot of me, stream media is super interested in the new fake meat um what I usually call tech burgers or tech meat um. It's fascinated by them and by lab made meat and and that sort of thing.

And for me, the whole thing is like, why aren't you as fascinated by tofu and tempe, which are ancient proteins that are delicious and also, you know, don't centralize production, don't come from you necessarily corporate producers and that sort

of thing. But in terms of meat, I mean, it's funny because we've had so many conversations culturally and within food media about how unsustainable our consumption of meat is, especially in the United States, especially around beef, even though poultry I think at this point um out out runs beef in terms of consumption, but which is insane because people consume I think two and twenty pounds a year in the United States of between beef and poultry. And

the conversation, yeah, it's people eat so much meat. And so even though it seems like we're having all these conversations around sustainability and you know, cattle production at this scale in factory farming, and so I've seen the conversation move lately toward sustainable grass fed, you know, regenerative regenerative agriculture in beef, and you know, I understand that, you know, I've talked to a lot of experts in this, butchers or or even farmers themselves, and it makes sense, you know,

like we have a ton of grass on the planet and we can't eat the grass and make it into anything, but cows can. And then so it makes sense that they're part of our you know, human landscape, part of our human relationship to the to the planet. But at the same time, when you've trained a population to consume meat at such a rate and in such volume and then ask them to change, it would require so much

change to people's diets. And we are not capable of um changing the the agriculture of cattle on such a large scale to provide this volume of meat to everybody, um to make it be more sustainable. You can tell people until you're you're blue in the face that they have to consume less meat. But you know, how do you really change people's diets. How do you convince them that they need to spend more If they're going to eat meat, they need to spend more money, They need

to have a relationship with their butcher. You know, these are things that were systemically destroyed by the cattle industry, by the meat packers in the United States. It was it was a plot to centralize meat production and to get people away from their local butchers. And that's that was successful. And so you know, that's that's what America is built onto. So that's what that's the foundation of the food system. Alicia raises an excellent point here. Not

only do we consume enormously high volumes of meat. But, as we discussed in episode twenty seven Beyond the Wheat, in the period of less than a century, we've become so disconnected from the tears of our food system that we have no sense of what's required to bring the food onto our plates. We don't understand concepts like seasonality, regionality,

mono cropping, and certainly not migrant labor. We can't really appreciate the specialized knowledge of what it takes to harvest an unfathomably high volume of produce, and what it takes to process it, to store it, to transport it, to wholesale it, to retail it. We are a long way away from the days of local millers and bakers, from local butchers processors, and even further away still from the

image of meat itself. And it's important to note that the creation of this void has been intentional, and the same forces that created it, i e. Multinational food corporations have also filled it with themselves with their own enterprises. We happily purchase slices of meat or ground beef, but in the Western world, when we see an animal head or carcass, it feels challenging or gross even all right, So let's talk about tech burgers, as you call them

a apt and hilarious name. I've been calling them tech burgers because they've mostly been burgers. But now I've noticed that the ground meat, yeah, the ground meat from Impossible and Beyond meat is used now as just simply an ingredient in in even New York Times cooking recipes, which is fascinating. UM. I don't think anyone would ever recommend a specific kind of cow meat UM in a in a New York Times recipe, it would just be ground beef.

But now there's trademarked products UM in the in the recipes, which for me, that's that's the big problem with it is that it it's corporate, it's centralized, it's extractive in terms of ecology. Even though it's it's maybe less impactful than than beef production on the factory farmed scale, it's

still about encouraging monocultures UM. Impossible beef burgers, which are sold at Burger King and many other places, UM used genetically modified soy, which is also happily subsidized by the government, same as beef UM production, and you know, they just kind of create UM a lot of the same problems again because we're still at once again focusing on single ingredients created by a single source, and um, that doesn't bring us any closer to really changing how we relate

to food. You know, like there's there's veggie burgers that people make at a vegetarian restaurant that will get super made fun of, but you know they you know, they combine like a whole host of grains and legumes and vegetables and flavors in order to produce something that, yes, is more like a vegetable croquette than a burger, but it's also you know, it's it's bespoke. It's something that

like that person that chef has developed. It's an act of creativity, which is what we are supposed to I thought expect from recipe writers and from and from chefs and cook everything. It's a good point we don't actually just talk about the fact that it's kind of weak that chefs haven't been more enthusiastic about creating something that

doesn't even necessarily need to approximate it. I mean, even a really delicious singular iteration of a vegetable croquette that made me think harder about what my ideas of burder work would be appreciated. So um, good point there. I mean, people who've been in food you know full stop, like you know how how most of the sausage is made um, so to speak in the United States. You know that.

You know, if you're going to a big supermarket, you're getting a commodity product, and you know that that that worker may have repetitive motion and injuries from the kind of work that they're doing, from the kind of pace that they're expected to take. You probably know that they're in cramped quarters. You probably know that many of these people are undocumented and are subject to harassment and arrest,

and you know, deportation by ice. You know these things if you're a person who pays attention to how the food gets to the plate, so to watch people still ignore this in food media when you have a huge, willing audience of people who are going to the grocery store who are cooking, and you don't let you don't let it change anything about how you talk about food.

You don't chain, you don't mention that you know, meat processing centers have been hotspots of the spread of the virus, that people have died, that children have died of COVID nineteen from being exposed from their parents working at meat

processing plants. And it doesn't bother these people that it's President Trump who has decided that meat processing, of all things, is extremely essential, whereas production of PPE for the healthcare industry hasn't been essential, that um, that testing and contact tracing hasn't been essential. That these things are actually seen as some sort of detriment to you know, his his reign of power. But meat process thing is essential to it,

even though it's it's putting people's lives in danger. Like that should tell everyone everything they need to know about what meat means in the United States. You know, it means authority, it means um, you know, unpaid, poorly treated immigrant labor. It means animal cruelty. I think this situation has in so many ways laid bare so many problems

in the United States. And so to watch food editors at you know, the biggest the biggest outlets in the country completely ignore this in favor of telling people that they should comfort themselves with cheeseburgers at this time or with a chicken and pork patte um. While most knowing that most people are going to go to the supermarket and get the commodity meat. They're not going to go

to the butcher. They're not gonna you know, they're not having a close relationship with their farmer and making sure that everything is above board. You know, that's so irresponsible, that's so negligent, and like I mean to me that you know, these editors and these writers have a hand in these people going to work under unsafe conditions because they continue to encourage people to consume something that is leading to sickness and death. And that's just inexcusable to me. Yeah, wow, wow.

And the inability of editors to to bring that kind of analysis into the way that they do their jobs has resulted in a kind of complicitness that I don't really think that they're ready to hear or absorb yet, But that is very deep. And um, I hope that we can get through a point in the and the discourse in the same way that we have around the reconciliation of you know, sexual predation um or or racial discrimination, about the harm that is being perpetuated you know, in

in media. So Alicia, we are in what some people are calling a moment of reckoning. And one of the things that many people are reconciling is their relationship to meet. But mind you, and you know this well that people eat meat for a variety of reasons, but not the

least of which is their socio economic condition. And that condition can be multifaceted, but in no small part is due to the fact that meat is often the cheapest part of their diet, and the fact that it is the cheapest part of their diet has to do with really aggressive lobbying and heavy subsidies paid by taxpayers. So my question for myself and for my people is often how can we amplify and support this important message of needing to eat less meat, but without condemnation, with empathy,

and frankly, without sounding to paternalistic. I think in age first, on this level with people you have knowledge of deeply and are intimate enough with to have that conversation, to have hard conversations, and you know, come with deliciousness, like you know, if you want someone to stop centering meat in their diet, like show them how they can eat something else that is also delicious, that is also cheat you know, that is also you know, well sourced if possible,

and you know, make that the focal point you know, I think I've in my in my almost ten years of not eating me and I've changed a lot of people's maybe not their whole life, maybe not their diet completely, but I've changed their mind about what veganism means and what it is by simply making a really good cake or a really good cookie, or like a cashew mac and cheese that someone really enjoyed and didn't, you know, screw at them that it had no no dairy in it,

you know, And don't think you have to change everyone's mind all at once, because you won't, you know. Like, and I think also encouraging people to simply consume less meat and thus better maybe more expensive meat than you know, show people how they can get their protein in another way that works, But never come at people who are not um already open to it, because it's not gonna work.

You're just gonna alienate people. I think, in terms of vegetarianism and veganism, like talking food first is way better than trying to change someone's heart and mind. Um, that's that's a lot more difficult than changing their stomachs. I was actually born vegetarian my cost, so I I belong to a cost which was always vegetarian, and I sort of inherited vegetarianism just because of my my upbringing and background. I've never thought once about animals at all until about

five years ago. Beyond the personal or morals. Sometimes these questions of whether or not to eat meat are superseded by one's culture or religion, and in order to talk about the morality of meat, we also need to consider these factors. And to do so, we go to India with researcher Dr Yamini no Ryan in where the convergence of cultural, political, religious, and social pressure to abstain from

eating meat all come to a head. So I never thought about the ethics of my diet because I assume that if I don't like thought about it, I assume that I was okay, because I would have vegetarianism in my mind, and I think in the minds of most Indians but also most people in general, does not necessarily

involve slaughter, does not necessarily involve and on suffering. I was a where that there's a raging conversation, of course, politically around this question in India, because you have a very strong Hindu ultra nationalist right wing government in India. Dr Na ryan And is a senior lecturer in International

and Community Development at Deacon University in Australia. Her work focuses on the nexus between animals and urban planning in India and the intersections of species ism, cast is um and racism and the ways in which animals are enrolled in nation building projects. As Dr Na ryan And tells us, the interesting thing is that although India is not a nation associated with beef, they are one of the world's

largest producers and exporters. Here she expounds on that relationship and how this contradiction came to be at the moment we've been having them for the last five years, where they have really taken on the cause of cow protection in a very political, very violent sort of way. In there in their vision and cow protection means protecting the cow from slaughter. Implicitly, this means protecting the cow from um Muslims and also who they see as low cost

Hindus who are consumers of beef. Right where consumers of meat so special and there's a cow is seen as a sacred animal in Hinduism. Um they see this as a way of marginalizing Muslims and and low cost Hindus who they who they see as low cost Hindus. Som me dating is extremely political and volatile in terms of resistance to these sorts of um world views as well.

So meat eating in fact is seen as a political activity, and vegetarianism therefore, because the Hindu writering is is honestly so violent about it, Vegetarianism in India is seen as some sort of a fastest activity, which is really interesting because a lot of cultures might disagree with vegetarianism, but in India it actually becomes the fastest activity. Right. So it was in this context that I started my research

on card protection five years ago. And so when you're talking about vegetarian being perceived as a method of fascism, which is fascinating, is it because it's used as an instrument to oppress and already oppressed or marginalized class And is that being done specifically by preventing access to foods that would otherwise be part of their traditional and cultural diet. Absolutely, absolutely so. So vegetarianism is being mobilized specifically against bee fetus,

so not necessarily against consumers about meat. So you know, if you're eating chicken or or lamb, or other meat. That's that's okay. It's specifically as a way of marginalizing bee fetus because in the in the world, in the political sort of narrative, Muslims and low cast Hindus are the only be fatus, which is not true. If you actually do a demographic story of India, everybody is everybody is consuming base, including the supersede themselves as high cast,

so it's across the board. But the political narrative is that it's only these sorts of minorities who don't belong to the Hindu nation, to the Hindu Indian nation, and therefore they either need to tow the line or they just need to, you know, not be part of this nation. So so therefore vegetarianism becomes um becomes seenus as very fastest activity because it's kind of used as part of

nation building. In their view, they want this ultra right wing, pure Hindu Indian nation, and vegetarianism is part of this pure Hindu nation. Because it is seen as part of nation building, it is tied up so politically it goes well beyond the ethics of diet itself. It's kind of almost like a nationalist ultra nationalist narrative right. Interestingly enough, for a high beef producing country, India does not actually

have any beef cows. So if you look at other leading beef producers in the world United States, Brazil, Australia and New Zealand, they all real cows that are explicitly for the beef sector. Like anger scouse. India does not have any breed of cattle that's actually for for for beef purposes. The only actually a real dairy house because we're not supposed we're supposed to We're not supposed to

be slaughtering house. You can raise dairy cows. We are the world's largest producer of dairy and we have been since nineteen seven, so over twenty years you'll be the largest producer of dairy. Um. But but but the fact that dairy is also linked to cow slaughter is fully obscured. What actually happens in India is that we have an industrial scale of cow slaughter that simply goes underground. So it's not that we do not slaughter house. They simply

go underground. So we have the largest year of the one of the largest war and slaughtery countries in the world. We think of industrial slaughtering in the West as something that happens in these giant industrial slaughterhouses, right, But in developing countries, and certainly in India, industrial industrial slaughtering happens informally. It happens underground. It happens in people's that yards, and this happens usually in the homes of highly racialized minorities,

highly vulnerable minorities. And this is across the board in almost all countries, right, So the ones that are performing this sort of really risky labor, and in India it is extremely risky because it's also illegal, right. It's actually they're not just having to perform labor, which is not very nice, but it's also outright illegal. And there is there is like really high penalties in many states in India, especially those that have um a Hindu nationalist political party

ruling the state. Right, the penalties tend to be very high. In the state of Buddad, for example, it's life imprisonment. When cows are sold for slaughter in the in the in the market, they don't necessarily get sold as sluck as as as slaughter cows, you know, they get sold as dairy cows. They get sold repeatedly over many, many, many different park markets. It's almost impossible to trace the point of origin at the point of sort of destination.

And they go through so many markets across so many states. Because there's only about two states in India where cow slaughtering is actually legal, so a lot of cows from throughout India, that is the states of Kerala and Western Goal they go through many, many, many markets sold as dairy cows the point of purpose because it's not per se illegal to sell a cow. You can sell a cow, but you can obscure the purpose of the sale, and

that just keeps going through market after market after market. Right. And so when you're talking about vegetarian being perceived as a method of fascism, which is fascinating, is it because it's used as an instrument to oppress and already oppressed or marginalized class And is that being done specifically by preventing access to foods that would otherwise be part of their traditional and cultural diet. Yeah, that's such an such

an interesting and such a complex question. Um, it's it's so urban urban spaces in India are major cornduits for facilitating the entire informal economy of dairy and waif. They're very much part of this continuum. Um, it's not just the cities, it's also the regions. So for example, you have entire villages, entire regions that are dedicated purely and solely to how slaughter, for example, or to sheep slaughter, or to pick slaughter. So there's entire regions dedicated that's

all they do. Right. I have been through regions in India where there is skin hanging off fences, people's um outside people's homes, the skins of cows or buffaloes, they're literally hanging off the drying, you know. So there's entire regions dedicated to this activity. And that also contributed, even though it might just be family units of that region, but it kind of contributes to this um to this

informal economy within cities. What happens is that in India, and I think as much of the global South, our cities, all parts of our cities are not formally planned. Okay, so there's a lot of our urban spaces which are not really within the purview of formal urban planning. Even things like it's a problem because things like sanitation, um

water supply that doesn't reach everybody. So even even aside from um from these illegal activities or informal activities, people sometimes often often have to you know, make their own water supplies, often have to sort of sort out their own sanitation supplies. So the formal planning doesn't actually formal governance doesn't reach all parts of the city. It doesn't

reach all parts of the people. For all people in the city, right there's a large informal population that are outside of it and that have to that have always had to make do and sort out their own lives outside of the benefits of formal governance. But in some senses it also provides an opportunity. What's the people, but also for the government when it comes to activities like houselaughtering, because we as a daily country, we need to start

a house, right, but we can't formally allow it. So it's easy for the for the state to just turblind eye. It's happening in informal locations in the city. That's that's got nothing to do with us anyway, And you will find entire suburbs and areas of these cities that are absolutely filled with slaughterhouses, back head boucheries, UM meet shops, etcetera. But in India there's also this extraordinarily sentimental relationship with

the cow. For a lot of Hindus, and about eighty percent of the population are Hindu, cow milk is seen as a very secret commodity. It's not just that you have a health relationship or a consumer relationship, but it's also almost a spiritual relationship with cow milk. So it has symbolic capital. It's not just profitable capital, but it's also symbolic capital. Either way. Of course, for the cow,

it doesn't make any difference. The cows continue to be used for dairying and they continue to sort of India and suffer all the processes that they are in involved. We thought about what what could be our different like UM allies, you know, our allies could be planned, Our allies could be nourishment, or allies could be getting clear and having a share language about UM racism and system

of oppression UM. But the reality is that the more you awaken to the truth UM, it's it's hard to hold that in your body and it's hard to hold that in your mind. That's insane. Batistasna is a black Dominican born in Harlem and In two thousand seventeen created the culinary arts and food justice worker coop Woke Foods, where she and her team offer Dominican plant based foods to organizing movements across New York and among other things, food justice workshops e sn that is also co host

of the podcast for Need the Bag. I didn't take cooking seriously until after I got into community organizing work and saw that as an organizer, who was you know, in in meetings, protests, just like organizing work, UM, how much it was affecting my physical and mental health and UM.

Through a mentor and through and through just a group of folks that were also organizing, we just collectively decided to undergo UM a month of plant based lifestyle to allow us UM, just to so for us with with our health, so that we could continue the work that we were doing, kind of realizing that all of it is connected and how much systems of oppression UM are

connected to food and lands. Woke Foods was born from a revelation, a revelation that summons healing culinary traditions as a means of community activism, from workshops, interactive cooking classes to creating meals with the North Bronx collective to multi month long intensive programs. Woke Foods is about healing and more specifically dedicated to deepening a healing relationship with the earth.

Ethernet has created an organization in her own brilliant likeness, and in doing so has given us new ways of understanding how white supremacy and racism have and continue to undermine our collective survival. We've done a few UM experimental projects because we don't I don't have it all figured out.

My team doesn't ALMOHOL figured out. But we try different things to see, like what can we give to our people so that they can they can UM see the importance of taking care of them, of themselves and to see their their m to see their relationship to Mother Earth just as important as we see our relationship to each other, and to just this work. And so last

year we did UM the last year REVERE. A year and a half ago we did Resistance Kitchen, which was a series of free cooking classes and Harlem and the Bronx for community organizers and or people that lived in affordable housing units UM. And so those were like one off UM cooking classes UM, and they had like different themes UM for the whole summer UM and they were free, so that was you know, one experiment and that was cool. Then UM. We also UM provide you know, free recipes

on our website. UM. Most of our catering is for grassroots or nonprofit work or found a san work, so those are pretty much are our consistent clients UM. And then we've also have done UM cooking for like organizing retreats UM. And recently we launched earth Lap which is an eight week UM a virtual course for for bipoc who want to be in right relationship to Earth while being clear and understanding the ways that like racism shows up in our in our in our attempts to be

in right relationship with Earth. And so those are the typroup of twenty folks. UM. We're down. We're in our seventh week right now. We started with UM political education, moved into UM into cooking plant based meals, how to, how to work with plants, and herbal medicine last week.

I think an issue that I see a lot in the world of veganism and the world of also environmental UM stewardship is there is no lens of why we're in this situation in the first place, and we are in the situation in the first place because white people imagine these like racial hierarchies to justify the extraction of labor from our bodies and from the land, and so

that our work has always been explicit with that. So a lot of what you're doing right now is based on what I would consider building future leaders UM and building UM leaders within this food justice, equity sovereignty space. So UM, one thing that I know is required for for leaders who trained leaders like yourself is to have a vision for the future, right kind of imagine vision that you can share with other leaders to inspire them

and to give them a way forward. So UM, do you think you could share with us some of your visions for a more equitable food system in the future and maybe how we might get there. Sure, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is for for black people, UM, and brown people and indigenous people too to rest. I really want us to like stop explaining like racism and having to put that labor on us.

I would love for for there for white people to step up and return lands back to back to the first peoples of this nation and back to black people. Um who you know who helped build so much of our food system. And I would love for are there to be more green spaces and urban environments um and if we would have the time, we would have have the time to engage um in growing their own food

and cooking their own food. Um. And so yeah, my vision is a little bit all over the place, but I think it starts with time, um and for and for white people to stop the obsession with like over working, and and for us as you know, as black as black ground and didn't people to interrupt the ways that whiteness has also creeps up in our lives um And yeah, yeah, I think at this point I'm not going a little

bit all over the place. But if I could prioritize it, it would be time to rest, time to grow food and and access to land so that we can figure out what we want to do, who we want to be. And yeah, I'd believe it. I'd believe it at that that's a beautiful vision for the future. That's the future

that I want to live into. Well, I thank you, and I actually think those things are very much in relationship and I appreciate youth centering, rest and this new imagined kind of utopia because it is something that we need to deeply decolonize in our mind, the notion of productivity and our value being tied to our our economic usefulness or utility. So much good could come from a society where rest, especially for for black and bipop people

who are prioritized. I like that a lot. You heard it right there, eastnet Baptiste with stirring wisdom, which is also a perfect segue into our last episode of the season entitled Food Apartheid, in which we discuss the politics of space and landscape and how they facilitate food oppression. You will not want to miss that conversation. But in service of today's conversation, I would like to thank our extraordinary guests, which I feel is a hallmark of our

little podcast. But today the heat from my friend Alicia Kennedy from eastnet Baptiste, a leader and a woman of great vision who I deeply admire. And Dr Yamini Na ryan In of Deacon University in Melbourne, whose scholarship at the intersection of animals and urban planning is specific and exemplary and frankly just enlightening. So I want to thank them all and I would like to extend my thanks for you all for gifting me and everyone who tuned in with your insight and giving us so much to

think about. This is a good time to inform you of what I'm sure many of our listeners are already privy too, which is that Alicia Kennedy has a newsletter UH and if you've enjoyed her interview, I'm sure the newsletter will blow you away. It's tidy and thoughtful and weekly offering on the food system. It's maladies and Brokenness

with interviews and musing. So we highly recommend that you sign up for that in encourage Asnet's work via Woke Foods, And probably the easiest way to do that is through their site UH or at Woke Foods, which is their i G handle. But we will be writing all about them on our website wet Stone Magazine dot com, w H E T S t O n E Magazine dot com.

And this is the part of the show where I will usually add some additional context or commentary to wrap up the episode, But honestly, our guests did so much of that lift today that I will just their words

speak for themselves. But what I will say is that if you've listened to this podcast, you've likely observed, as we have, that the many problems in our food systems that continue to reveal itself is that the businesses at the end of the supply chains, and not the ones at the point of origin, are the ones capturing all of the value, and to whatever degree possible, we as

consumers can up end this. That is more important than any endorsement found on the label, and that criteria alone will do more to further a truly transformative food system than just about anything that we could ever do. We'll be back next week for our aforementioned final episode of season three. I'm your host Steven Saderfield, what Stone co founder will see you then. Thanks for tuning in peace. We'd also like to thank our incredible podcast producer Selene Glazier. Selene,

you are the best. To our editor and wet Stone partner into Rector of Video David Alexander in London. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks to our wet Stone production intern Quentin le Beau, and last but not least, my business partner Mel She who makes all things at Whetstone possible. Thank you Mel. We'd also like to thank our partners and production at I Heart Radio to Gabrielle Collins, our supervising producer and

executive producer Christopher Hasiotis. We'll be back next week with more from the world of food worldwide Point of Origin listeners, As you know, rating and reviewing our podcast is the very best way for more people to find out about our very important work at wet Stone, So please, if you're able, we would really appreciate a positive review in rating on Apple podcast that will help others like your self find out about Point of Origin.