Pan-African Libations: Anomalies and Disrupters

and exporters in the South African wine industry. And now Nitzki has gone off and started her own Inner Prize in Aslina Wines, which we will learn more about today. Natziki, thank you so much for joining us on Point of Origin. Thank you very much. Good to hear you. Yes, indeed, I'm doing really well. I'm so glad to hear your voice. It's been so long and very very long, very long, too long. I hope it's never this long again. I hope so, I hope so too. Are you in Stellenbosch

or are you in Cape Town in so Dst in Summerset? Okay, I'm really really grateful that you made time for me today. So I have to start off by saying that I feel I owe you my entire life. And I mean that literally because when I first met you in two thousand and eight, it completely changed the direction of my life.

I had been working as a samolier and really reading more about the history of the South African wine industry, learning about how it was colonized by the Dutch, and feeling a sense of wanting to insert myself in the story of South African wines beyond just you know, peddling the wines table side, but really acting as an advocate and an ally for the very few black men or women like yourself who were able to find their way into the top spot of winemaking. And so I've been

so inspired by your work. It has led me to continue documenting and exploring and advocating for indigenous and marginalized groups throughout wine and agriculture. And it's all because of you. So thank you for all that you've done and continued to do. Thank you so much, Steven. That is so

beautiful to hear. I think we sometimes to a point where we take it for granted what we do as individuals in different spaces or because we're feeling like, oh no, we're just peddling where we are, but actually to know that whatever we're peddling doing it is someone's inspiration, it always gets me humbled. Thank you, of course. So let's talk about your story. Can you orient us geographically where

you grew up? Okay, so currently I'm based in the Western Cape, which is the most southwest of South Africa, and I'm from Baslontal, which is more north east of South Africa, but I'm more inland. So where I come from this basically it's a very liberal area where basically, if you would have told me about why I'm making and talking about where I am today, that I would have been here by now. I wouldn't even have had an idea what to talk about. I was applying to study.

It's not like I applied because I knew I'm going to be doing winemaking. It was like, oh, there's a scholarship studying whatever are the wine making or the agriculture was saying. It was sort of like saying blah blah blah. But I saw studying and then there's funding and I was like, I'll do it. So that that's basically was my path to the to the to get to the industry. And it was just because you felt like there was an opportunity there or were you curious about why. No,

for me, it was an opportunity to study. It was an opportunity to change my life. It was an opportunity to do something. It could have been anything, but I saw studying and I was like, yes, so much so even though when I was told that, oh no, the cause it is going to be in Afrikaans, I was like, oh no, that's fine. I learned um. But obviously I didn't have a sense of direction and feeling what that meant to say if it's an Afrikaans. So it was like I thought, you know what, whatever it is, I'm

going to do it. I'll learn. And when you you grew up in Quasolon at all in the nineteen eighties, what was your childhood like? I think one of the things that get overlooked when you look at the childhood of the rural people. I think people look at and see poverty because it's not a lifestyle that is lived in the cities. It's not a lifestyle that is lived in the European style. But when you look at it.

Actually in it, there's that sense of community, there's sense of love, there's sense of togetherness, which you do not find in the Western lifestyles. For me, when I was growing up, I think when I look back, one of the things I enjoyed the most because how I grew up with my grandmother and my grandfather. Because my mom was working as a domestic wreak and durban most of the time I was spending looking after cows and so I will spend most of the time with the boys,

and I was milking cows. I was, you know, taking care of the the things within the family to make sure that okay, because they go to the tep, they come back. We do milking, we do this, we do that. And when I look back at that, it was the most beautiful thing that nowadays kids don't get to experience. These are the beautiful things that we miss. So you were obviously growing up with animals, with the relationship to

the soil. Did it occur to you that when you would be going to study wine, was there part of you that thought or hoped that you might be able to continue that relationship. Yes, there was part of me that I hope I will be able to continue doing some of the things that I was doing, even though it was wine making. I think that part of saying agriculture for me, it did tell me that I'll be

dealing with soil. And I remember one of my grandfather's in the village called me and said, my child, when I had that to studying agriculture, a really good worried and I was like, what is that agriculta these are things we're doing here. Why didn't you study to be a clerk just and be in the office. Because agriculture it's something that you're living on the on your daily basis. It's something that you don't think you can make a living on. It's something that is being looked at as

small as the chip stuff to play your stuff. So why do you have studied it? But you know, it seems like a valid question. It reminds me a lot of when I was getting into food. A lot of my relatives, who you know, come from a legacy very similarly of domestic workers and working in kitchens in the South where there's the only jobs that were available, you know,

to my great grandparents. When I said I want to go to culinary school and pursue food and cooking for a living there, like you're gonna pay money for that, Like you could just go work at a restaurant. Yeah, I completely under stand. It's really interesting part of our well. We have many parts of a shared history from the continent.

But you know, looking at the role of African people and agriculture, it's a complicated story because, as you're alluding to, it is obviously so much a part of our history in Africa, and as the world has grown smaller and more industrialized, we have lost our relationship as African people, both on the continent to the land, but also here

in the US with the legacy of slavery. There are so many African Americans who are tepid or reluctant about working on the land because we feel that, you know, we have to fight so hard to move into these clerical jobs, right and actually, why are you doing it for yourself and doing it for you you know, it's the own thing. It brings a different sense deafly so beautiful, so beautiful that you're part of that reclamation as well. So you're how old when you're in Stellenbush University, like

nineteen years old, twenty years old. I was twenty years

old when I when I came to the university. Actually when I got there, it was you know, that shock of culture, shock off this different world that I came to from its small village in the Royal areas where it's only black people, where everything is like here, you know each other, everything is here, to get to this place where and I remember my first day when we have to look for black people and you're like uh, and then when you see one, you go running it high,

speaking only to find the person that we've seen that don't speak your language. And you realize that still after finding other don't speak your language, is so excited that actually, who but someone who looks like me. It was something that I never thought there could be something like that. What a strange thought. I mean, wow, that's such a strange thought. So how were you being received in those moments when you would rush over to another black person?

Were they like whoa chill, what's wrong with you? Or were they like hey, So because they understood the situation, they embraced us, and because they used to stay in the student houses where they could cook, and they go, no, come,

we're gonna cook. And and then we started knowing each other, and they understood the pain we're going through because they were post graduates and they were learning in there in English, and here we are, We're frustrated and crying and we're running linen in Afrikaans and we don't understand and it's just everything is overwhelming. So yeah, I kind of knew the answer to that, but I just wanted to hear you said the universal had not I think we all know.

So how did you manage to speak Afrikaans? Not only learning the language, but how did you manage to learn about winemaking, which is really technical involves a lot of science. Even if Afrikaans was your first language, it would be tricky. But how did you manage to kind of simultaneously learn a new language and learn really, you know, complex science. We had to request tutors because it just it wasn't

gonna work. We had to request tutors. And you're sit in class and listen and just too because there are words which are in Afrikaans but that sort of a borrowed from English, so you could actually follow in an English book to see where they are in class, and then you're gonna go to the to the tutor class after that, and then the tutor can explain things in English. Wow, it felt like basically someone is shoving something down your throat. I think a human sense that when something like that

happens to block. So there was that part of me was that not just blocked that? And I've not not been interested in learning the language because I felt like you're not being forced to learn it in this than that because the native language is is a Zulu. Yes, yes, managing my language is Zulu. So you're speaking Zulu growing up? Did you have any exposure to English? That one is a very interesting one. I did, but our English was

more like being taught in Zulu. Yeah, you know when you go to class and you'll be taught most of them had to be explained in Zulu. H So, coming to stell In Bush, my English was just yeah, so you're in this classroom. It takes three different languages basically for for you to learn about wine making, but we're

making it happen. And was there some point in the class where, even though you were frustrated with the language barrier, did you have some kind of epiphany around the winemaking itself where you thought like, even though I hate this language barrier. I am actually interested in what's being taught. It wasn't really the class because what happened in my first year, I got a job at Tel Time Wine.

So I was working at the tasting room, working at this in the celler with the whine maker, Philip Constantez. He's stealth deep Africans guy. Like the look and feel you can say, this guy is like, you know, deep cultural Africaans in in any way in the Loos, you know way. I realized that as human beings we're saw different. The love he had. Philip was struggling with English big time. I could see that sometimes he she could transfer the information to me that I could understand what's going on

and all that. It was through him that I said to myself, I'm going to be a wine maker. And also his passion for wine making, that for me was one of the most amazing things. And I remember during harvest, the first tank of um, once it's done ferment in to enter the first tank of men. It was his, and he will say the first tank is his. The second one would be the whine makers, the assistant whine makers, the third would be the supervisor. And then we all follow.

And that that's when I was like, I wanna be the whine maker for me. He inspired me because of his passion for while making, because of passion for humanity. Wow, do you guys have a relationship, Yes, we do. I had bought my grapes of Shadowy for twenty seventeen bottom from him. Wow, he must be super proud of you. Talk about super proud. I remember at some point I asked him, I said, Philips, tell me when you see me,

what do you think? And it's like, you know what, and said, you don't understand when you see someone when you remember them as kids in your celler, and you remember what you went through with the person, and it's like, you make me proud. You just make me proud because I remember when I remember that December when I did my harvest that yeah, when I went back to school,

he gave me a bottle of cab. He gave me tina, and then he gave me a specially at harvest and like so getting these wines, and I remember the cab he gave me was a cab that was not available to be sold anymore. So it was one of those special wines. And he gave me that, and I remember people in the saladical the wine maga gave her the wine and we are working in we don't just get wines. And I thought to myself, this was so special. I

had to keep the wines. Wow. So you are working with Philip, you're enrolled in stelling Bosh, and after you completed your coursework there, did you stay at the same winery or did you move on to a different one. When I finished my studies, I moved to a different one because also Philip had left her hand by then. When I finished my studies. You know when you see somebody looks it too with a worry, it was contrad

Flock was the wine maker after Philip. He looked and he said, I was watching battles at the back, and he certain city. You know, when you go out to the work in the industry, just be open and understand that not everybody cares and not everybody will basically have your interests. So just be aware of that. But like when he spoke, there was this concern of some sort

and I could feel he was concerned. He was obviously because he knew the industry, you know, and he was concerned and worried, and he's giving me those them that like when you go out there, just don't be naive, be aware that these things are going to happen. Certain things are going to happen that's going to be blocking your way, you know. And and do you think that he was explicitly talking about the fact that you were a black woman. For sure, he had never seen or

worked with the black woman. I mean, was he basically expressing concern? I think so he was concerned fact that I'm a woman and through that black and there isn't a lot of black people in the industry. I think his concern was more like to say, I hope you will persevere. So yeah, there was that concern for me.

It was people like those him and Philip who made me say, you know what, Yes, I'm going to meet people who working with BED in the industry, but guess what, I'm gonna keep on listening to those voices that I heard at the beginning who were saying walk the path. M For people who don't really understand the makeup of South Africa's wine industry, obviously you are an anomaly. When you look at the wine industry itself is a percent

of the population in South Africa's black. And when you come to the wine industry and you look at the management level and all that that's proud about what what that's maybe looking at the people of color? There isn't many people of color in the industry. M So who's actually working the harvest? And yeah, that's what I'm saying, You're not going to find an management level. You find the majority of the people working in the unions, they're

doing labor. Now to commit a level of management as a blood person, a person of color, that who you Yes, yeah, I'm familiar with that. So I mean you did you feel like because on the one hand, obviously you had never been in a situation where you were interacting with so many white people and of course I'm sure they

were thinking the same about you. Did you feel more or less prepared for those encounters because you weren't intimidating or had nothing compared to or was it more scary because you know, you have never been in those positions before. When I put out of the university, the actual our scared of the industry because the university, the students will say, what are you doing in the Africans university? If you don't understand Africans. What are you doing here? Why didn't

you stay where you were? And you're thinking, you know all the time, and to get to to the work environment with that in your mind to say, I'm being constantly asked what am I doing here? So when I get to the work area, which I am sure it's even scarier, I'm expecting the worst. And then you get to the work environment and you don't see the worst. And then I said to myself, Okay, so adults can hide stuff and not say They can say it in their hearts, but they're not gonna say it of yourseln.

But also I think I was lucky in I feel like one of the most placed people I know of. Welcome back to point of origin. So let's talk about um Stella Kaiah, because that's where I met you. You were working there in two thousand and eight, and I believe this is true. But I always say this is true that you're the first black woman in South Africa to be a head winemaker. Is that right? And that became official at Stella Kia? Was that your first official

wine making position? It's when the truth and the realities of growth seriously started yeah, no question. Did you feel a kind of responsibility as the first black woman in South Africa to be a winemaker? I did feel it off a lot of pressure on that. That's when at some point I had to go to my boss's office and I sat down. I literally know when you're walking and not get the doing to sit down on the

floor next to the door. And I'm like, I can't do this, and it goes what And I was like, I can't this thing of being a role model, this thing of things. I just I just wanted to make one and just live my life. And then set me down and they said, okay, being a role model, understand this. It doesn't mean you need to change your life being a round model me to live your best life. And then so he explained to me that I also can't do this thing of generals. Can they just leave me

alone and do what I do my own thing? And it goes yeah, they can't leave you alone. But the other thing is how are other people going to know that they are people like you? How are other people can get inspired? And that was that can get inspired? Uh, no, you're the only one that is. That's really cool. That um that Dave and Philippe and Conrad. You know, these white men who have had long standing in the industry, they really, you know, spent time with you and invested

in your education. And it sounds like, especially with with Dave, just like your emotional well being um as well, which is like extremely important given you your position at the time. So I remember very distinctly once you came to New York and this was in two thousand and ten, and you gave a beautiful speech at an event that we hosted, and I remember in the middle of that speech you said, one day, I want to be the captain of my own ship. And it really stuck with me because, you know,

I obviously wanted that for you. I wanted that for myself, you know, but as the first black woman in South Africa to be making wine, that actually wasn't your your dream. Your dream was to make wine for your own winery. And we now fast forward nine years later and I'm talking to you and you're the captain of your own ship. So congratulations, thank you very much, and thank you for reminding me of those words. Yes, I think as human beings, we all strive to be the captains of our own

ship because it drives us to our purpose. That wasn't twenty eleven way where I said to Dave, I want to start my own company and then he said, oh yeah, sure, let me know if need happen. And then there was this thing about with Naked Wine where I made on one wine for them, and then I met Mika Wilmash who spoke to me about doing a collaboration wine and

basically that's how everything started. MHM came twenty twelve, we made a color of wine with Helen kept Linger from MAPPA which was branded with other names and it was sold in New York. And then twenty thirteen with the second collaboration, and I think the proceeds from that is what helped me to actually kick start and and start as Lena. When I look at all those years, things that were following just falling into place to lead to this.

And in twenty fifteen, I was recruited to be to go to to the US for an African women hyprenticeship program, and I remember when I got to the US and listening to the women from all over Africa who were running businesses, multimillion dollar businesses, and I was like, it's like you get to a pleasent and say how did I get here? Again? Because I don't belong to this group. Therese are people who are running businesses and I'm not yet running. I'm slightly but not in you know, and

You're like, whoa, how did I get here? And one of the ladies, her Cineme is right, she was speaking to us in Chicago, and she said, first, you must know why you want to do something. And I remember when I was trying to think about it why I wanted to start, and I couldn't remember. And I thought and thought, and the light bulb came on and I remembered why I wanted to start my own company. I got a panic because I felt, on my word, I've

delayed to do this. I'm delaying other people's lives, like and then all of a sudden, do all these questions. My head rushing through and I was like, oh wow, oh no, I have to start m And then in that process, one of the ladies actually she said okay, let's go, let's get together and have a drink. It was a lady from Kenya, and then she invited others, so it was a lady from Kenya and Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and the comb yes, and I can't. Let's go have

a drink and they know. We all said, and we're having a drink, and they all turned around and said, no, actually, the drink is not about having a drink. We just wanted to talk to you. I'm like, okay, like what is this whole intervention for, you know? And then she's like that I've known, so we thought we should talk to you because you must have taking drugs. And I'm looking at them and guys, I'm not on drugs, you know.

They go, no, you are, and then the seriousness on their face and I'm thinking, guys, I'm not on drugs. And then they're like, say that look on the face. It terrifies you to know that you're on drugs. And then they say your salary is a drug. You cannot work for the fix at the end of the month because we've got this debt. That's how you're scared of jumping the ship and starting your own business. Hours Like,

oh my word, that is oh my word. They're like, yes, you cannot wait for the fix, and I was like wow. And I came back from that trip. I came back in September I resigned in November. And when I resigned, I only had forty rand in my bank account. I had no other investments, nothing whatsoever. I had and half thousand bottles of wine that I could sell. And yeah, and the first thing they've said, how are you gonna survive? And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean,

it's a fair question. I just love that it took a group of African women to come to the US to really, you know, bring it all together for you and force you into thinking about making that leap. Because I was going to keep on counting. That's what I was doing. I was gonna keep on counting. Just okay, fine, I will let me give another year to do this. So and then Dave was that, so, can you stay with us and consult at least? And as a yes,

I could. And then so I consulted in Costel. And then it became too heavy for me to do consultation while I'm trying to push my brand. So I had to end the consultation at the end of twenty sixteen. And then twenty seventeen I went on fully with us. Lena and I remember Mika bull Marsh when I also when I said to it, Okay, I've resigned. I need to put every effort in this. And then she was like she also had a panic, how are we going

to sell this much? We need to do fast, the high we need like insurance, panicking, and like Mika, it's gonna be done, because okay, fine, what do you have right now? And because okay, fine, for now, we're gonna let's take a pallet of each of the three ones, bring them to the US, and you need to get a ticket in flying. And basically I did that and we were on the street. We basically sold that everything

we had. We sold that everything we had, and I had to rush back to bottle all the foreign vintage, and and then I started negotiating with them, with my suppliers to say, okay, fine, because I remember some of them. I said, okay, I'm gonna need cos I won't be able to pay you in the next three months. Can give me six months to pay, you know, And then have these different negotiations with different people. So yeah, like I had to be the negotiate and just say things

up front to the side. I remember one of the bottling bottles come back to them and it bottles, but I can only pay you in six months time. And they were like, City, you've only bought one too, so honestly to give you that. And I said, guys, it's gonna trust me, just give please. They're like, okay, fine, we're gonna give you at least three months. And I said okay fine, And so like I bottled, I started selling, and so I had to be on the road most of the time, which I still do. I'm still on

the road most of the time. Oh and just to say, because one of the things that I didn't say that the company as Lena. It's the name. It's named after my late grandmother. And one of the reasons that I named the company from my grandmother, it's no one would look at your unsung heroes, those special people in your life. Because I believe I am who I am, and I am who I am because of what she invested in me emotionally, spiritually, the things she taught me, and she

made me realize what life was. So it was an o brainer that I was the name of my company. Of the head. Well, let's talk about actually what you're you're selling, because what you're selling is what you're making. You make Bordeaux great varieties, which means you make Cabernet saving on, you make saving on blanc. So um with the four wines that I have, I have Savignon, Blanc, cabin A, Chardonnaye, and the Apodog blend which is called Sasani Sasan that is the acasta tree, which is an

iconic try in Africa. It's an umbrellatory one of trees that basically sort of like that strong protectors in the wild when when it's how to find animals under the tree when it's raining, we find animals on the tree. And but the reason for that name to be on that wine is because it's my grandmother's nickname. So that wine, for me, it's a people always say it's a double

dose of Grandma. I love it. And I've always loved your wines too, because they really have so much structure and wait to them, and yet they always seem really approachable and vibrant, not too much oak, not too heavy. So people along the entire spectrum of wine drinkers, you know, from beginners to people who are experienced in drinking wine, can all find something that they that they like. Is that kind of part of your intention in your style as a winemaker. Yes, it is. I always try to

make sure the one is approachable and it's gentle. And I think what I like is more so the time I get people said I don't like drinking cab and then they'll drinking. They go, oh this is different, and I'm like, still kid, you know, and for me that I like that that people find gentleness enjoyability and say, let me have a doss let Mitchell let mirror Lett's.

I'd love to chill with you and your wines anytime. Uh, Nitziki, I'm going to have to wrap it up because I'm hitting my time here, but it really brings me so much joy to talk to you and to hear about Asthlena and that you're still making wine, that you've fallen into your role as pioneer. Please seek out Aslena Wines check out Ntziki Biela, South Africa's first black female wine maker. We're so proud to know you and lucky to get

to drink your work. So thanks for everything, Nitziki. Thank you very much for talking to miss Stephen, and thank you to your listeners. Thank You'll be back in touch soon. Okay, Bye, bye y m hm m h m hmm. Welcome back to Point of Origin. Today we are joined by Andre mac a Samolier, winemaker, author and entrepreneur, best known as the very first African American to win the title of Best Young Sonier in America in the year two thousand three.

Brother Andre Mack, thanks for joining us today on Point of Origins. It going, man, good, good, my man. I'm really happy to talk to you today. Before we start our conversation and I've got you captive, I'm going to take an opportunity to embarrass you by saying that that, you know, my career in food really was a career in wine before food. I went to culinary school. I got super into wine at a very young age and

I was still at Major. And one of the main reasons that I got into wine is because I remember reading about this young black samoier who was working for Thomas Keller and winning all these awards, and I thought, you know what, that could be me one day. I didn't end up winning any awards or anything like that, but that was in two thousand four. I was reading

about you. That was right at the beginning of my career in wine and It's just been incredible for me to watch the trajectory of your career both in and outside of wine, and it definitely has shaped my own life, you know, as a samoier and then as an entrepreneur after working the floor. So I owe you a lot, and I'm not sure that I've explicitly ever told you

like that. So this is and you don't owe me anything, brother, I mean those I don't know what to say, you know, it's it's just been really interesting journey and to see how I've been able to touch a lot of different people. But the fact that you say that is inspiring to me. You know, it's a circle and I think that's the reason why we've been able to jive and connect it because we really feed off each other. So thank you

for those those words. I wanna kind of go in a chronological order of your life and career, beginning with where you were born. I believe you're from Trenton, New Jersey. Is that right? Trenton makes the world takes right? So so tell me about your your childhood growing up in Trenton. My mom had was a single parent. She was sixteen when she had me, and then finally when she was old enough to join the military. She joined the military and went off to Basic, and you know, I spent

three years or so. They're living with my aunt, and you know, my mom would come back and that kind of stuff. And then finally she came back to get me and we moved to Killeen, Texas. And so, you know, Texas has been part of my blood very early on. And you know, Trenton, I do feel like I grew up there in a way, because you know, I spent

the first fifteen summers of my life there. You know, it was kind of a source of independence for me because because I would travel back during the summers without my mother, without my parents, you know, it would be me and I would stay with my grant aunt and

my cousins lived right around the corner. And you know, I feel like, you know, going to like private school and all those kind of things in Texas and then spinning the summers during the crack of ecademic in Trenton, New Jersey, you know, really made me streets so smart, you know what I mean. I felt like I had a really great balance of the world of the you know, the streets and suburbia, so to speak. I have very fond memories of it. It was it was really you know,

I really shaped who I am today. You know when you realize that, you know, it's like being able to have you know, foot in each world in two different worlds, so to speak, which is really defines my company to this day. It's based on no our wines, which really encapsulates and embodies like who I am as a person.

You know, I was a kid who grew up on hip hop, and then I grew up and punk rock in skateboarding, and then that was something that you know, I found in Texas, right, And you know, those are those two things, those two different worlds that now seemed closer together than they ever had before. But those were two separate, different kinds of people. And then growing up and then falling in love with wine and then being able to put all of those three things together is

really what Mason no Wire is about. I want to ask you about your your time in Texas because you're talking about kind of this foot in two worlds experience. How were your peers responding to you when you were coming back from Trenton with all your new gear, your new lingo music, Like, what was that like in Texas. It's kind of like, oh man, you guys ain't up on this yet. You wait and see. You know, that was always my defense. This is how they're rocking it there,

you know. And and and you have to say, because I played sports already kind of had a peer group, you know, so like they kind of got it and didn't get it. I assimilated very quickly, you know what I mean. You know, growing up up with your parents in the in the in the in the army, in the military, you learned to assimilate to be all is one. And we moved almost every two years, which I liked. I mean, I truly did love that part of like being able to travel and seeing a new place, and

you know, that was something special to me. Like, you know, I just learned to get along with everybody, and that's kind of you know, that's how you know, that's how I got into the service business, right, being able to being a waiter and being able to walk up to a table with strangers and talk to them. Although that came easy to me. Well, and your your first job as a waiter was not at per se, uh, what

was your your entry point into the hospitality industry? I would say F and B. It was like all the kids they got a job at McDonald's. You know. I was sixteen and got a job at the McDonald's right around the corner on the way to like Sea World. And my first four ring into waiting cables actually came from working at Red Loss Are actually, which I believe that was a slew of a whole bunch of famous people that used to I think Little Kim used to

work there, Chris Rock used to work there. But I worked there, but I worked, I was I put the cocktail sauces on the plate, and you know, and I think waiting tables seemed slightly daunting to me, like oh wow, that like and it wasn't the part of like going to talk to the table, but like they were managing a whole bunch of different things and all that, and it just seemed like, man, that's a lot of work. And so I started to realize how much they more they were making than me, and they were at work

less than me. You know. I started to ask that general manager like, hey, you know, you know, I really want to be a waiter, and you know, you could tell you're not. I don't think so blah blah blah, and then he would tell me that they're not hiring. And then one day I saw in the paper that they were hiring, and so I came in early in a suit and applied in the neper you mean, and yeah, in the newspaper that they in the classifies that they were hired, and nobody recognized me when I walked in.

And then finally was like, imdry, is that you I was like yeah, And I think that showed him how serious I was about about wanting to be a waiter, and I kept plugging at it, and then finally they let me be a waiter, and that was kind of it. You know. I was like, you know, less than six months, I was like the best water at this point, it was probably I was drinking then, so I was. I was probably like twenty. I would have to say I

turned one work in there. You know. It was a big thing for me of like understanding that, like, as an adult, most of your day is consumed by working. I didn't have that, like, you know, I wasn't playing basketball, and I think once I embraced it, it was it was over. Like you know what I mean, I just showed up to work in the morning and I left at night. And that's kind of how that started. I was always afraid to leave. I worked at Red Lobster for long. I mean, I'm probably about eight years off

and on. And you know, I'm a I'm a weird person, right, you know, I'm kind of like a type eight personality. And I tried to keep myself busy and and a lot of times it's like finding something new, so it becomes an obsession. So it was like, oh, hey, I wanted to learn how to play chess. So I bought like eleven books on chess, read all about him and was playing on the computer. After that, it was tennis. After that, it was riding horses, right, I wanted to

learn how to ride. And then I met these guys over at the San Antonio Polo Club and they invited me down to this tournament, this tournament in Houston, and you know, they're playing, and after wards they went to this place called the Palm, the Steakhouse, and you know, everybody the wine is flowing, and you know, it was amazing, it was great, and it was just so funny that I remember looking at the bottle of wine and trying to find it on the on their wine list and

then finding it and realizing that, like, oh, wait a minute, this is three a bottle. And then I realized, like, well, wait a minute, it's the same name over and over. The vintage is different. And then I matched the vintage and it was like seven hundred bucks, you know, and they were just ordering it like I mean, it was just I mean, just me and going. I was like, wow,

that's a lot of money. And you know, I come back from that experience, I'm in San Antonio and I was kind of like, wow, you know what, looking the class applies again. And the place that we're at was the Palm Steakhouse and they were opening one in San Antonio and that's that's that marks the beginning of where I started to get serious about not just food but wine. Right, how old are you? I was probably about twenty seven.

I believe. It was during that time that I started to watch this show called Frasier, Hey Baby, and he had the blues a call in toss salads and spambled eggs. You know. It was these two pompous brothers and the way that they talked about wine and that they had like this daily sherry ritual really piqued my interests. You know, I was like, Wow, these guys seem to be having so much fun with wine, Like, you know, it made me feel like I was missing out and I was

like wow. And so you know, I'd beat armed with my little budget and I would go into a one shot. I mean, that show really gave me the courage to walk into a wine shop. You know, from the outside looking in, you know, there's no one in there that

looks like me. But at this point in my life, I'm kind of comfortable with that, right because that's every day of my life, right, you know, you know what I mean, it's every day of my life that you know, if I stopped to look around, I would probably be the only person that looked like me in the room. And so at that point I was kind of okay with that, but it still felt pretty pretentious. But it

was that show. You know. Never did I think from watching that show that I have aspirations of of doing what I do now or being a some way, And none of those things crossed my mind. It was just like, those dudes are having a good time. I'm going to walk in the store with my twelve bucks and get something to drink. So obviously the poem at a certain moment in time was kind of important stepping stone restaurant, I think to the way that we think about contemporary

restaurant culture. But back in the day, the Palm was like really a spot, I mean a kind of spot where you go drop seven online. At what point did you decide like you wanted to move beyond what you were seeing at the Palm in San Antonio. San Antonio started to grow and we would have, you know, we had some transfers from other places, and I was just

I was just really into like food culture. And I remember one day after my break, coming back in for the dinner ship, there was a resume that was sitting on the bar and I grabbed that resume and I started to look at it. I grabbed it and I took it back to the manager's office and I said, hey, I said, did you see the guy the person that dropped this resume off? And they were like, oh yeah.

I talked to him. I was like, you're hiring this person, right, and they looked at me, like, what are you talking too. I was like, this guy has worked at to the top ten places and bone appetites latest issue of like the best restaurants to work in in America and they were like, what are you talking about? And so I had to go get the issue. And that was a person from New York. He had worked at Grammercy and I forgot you worked at some other place here in

New York. It was through other people from other cities coming into the Palm talking to me and getting to know me and then being like what the hell are you doing here? And I was like, well, what do you mean? And they're like, dude, that you don't belong here, and I was like, of course I do. I live here, you know. And it was kind of that thing of like no, no, no, dude, like you you should really get out and go some other places. And you know,

that was kind of it. And you know, I had become like the de facto wine person there, like all my peers, all the waiters. They didn't have some MOA's there, but all the waiters would come to me and asked me to go talk to their tables about wine. And I really started to dig deep into the wine aspect of it and it was awesome. And then what happened was is that there was a steakhouse that was moving in right next door. The general manager was a friend of mine and he was like, how would you like

to run your first wine program? And that was that I was all in. I was like, whatever it took, and so I quit the problem to work about fifty you know, really next door at a place called Bohannon Steakhouse, and that was my first summily a gig, and you know, it was a really great experience. You know, I tasted over three thousand wines to put together, you know, this little, small, little two and fifty selection wine list. But that was a huge education for me. You know, it was a

way to really get to understand my palette. When I was into what I wasn't into. And I decided that I had to be vulnerable because I really turned myself over to the sales rep the people who had years of experience and granted knowing that they were trying to sell me something and there were the ones that were genuine and the ones that weren't. And you know I figured out that quickly. But I really I really started to excel in as you know, as I started to

run my own program. And I always tell the story about like, you know, I just didn't know. I called all the top restaurants in the country. Some of them had websites, some of them didn't, and not a lot of them had their their wine list. I remember calling one place and they were like, we can fax it to you, so they factually a copy of their wine list.

And as I had, like, you know, probably I don't want to say, like eight different wine lists from the top restaurants in the United States, and I just started to go through each section. You know, you go through and you say, okay, all right, so where this is shiable. Everybody seems to have this producer called Ravenel, all right, so Ravenuel must be good, right, So and then you I go read about Raveno, and then I would have to go try to find someone who had it in

the state. And then I moved pretty quickly. And then you know, I felt like I was doing all this studying and and I was trying to figure out, like how do I really know any of this stuff? Like if I'm not using it on the floor, do I really know what kind of thing? And then that's when I started to take all these different certifications. So I took the first level of everything that existed you know, so w S T Quarter of the Master, whatever I

could find, I did. You know, all those things led to opportunities, and I met a lot of different people in the way. You know. I donated a thousand dollars a week to Stage and Charlie Trotters because I didn't know that all you had to do was asking. Generally, if you were industry, they would let you do it for free. You didn't have to pay them, right, so

you paid to work at Charlie Trotters. Charlie's books Lessons and Service really changed the outlook all my life and and really taking this working in hospitality as a real career. And I read in the book that he would let chefs come and hang out in the kitchen if they donated a thousand dollars, you know, like other chefs you know, from other restaurants around that. And I had already written a check and so they were, you know, they were like, dude,

you didn't have to pay the money. It's like, well, you guys already have it. So but it was awesome. I mean, I had a really great time, and it affirmed a lot of the things that I was doing in my program already, right, the things that I had implemented in the systems that I hadn't were on point and on part of what they were doing there, and even some of it. I was like, why do you guys do it this way? You know at my place is how we do it. They're like, really, that's how

you do it. You know, like that's pretty cool, you know what I mean. So it was really a huge validation for what I was doing because I felt pretty isolated, and so that was that was a big deal. It was a pretty big deal for me along this journey, you know, I had about all these great people and then you know, I had met Paul Roberts, who earlier

in that week I made him. I met him like on a Thursday, but earlier in that week he accepted the job to be the beverage director for all of Thomas Colors properties, and after spending a shift on the floor working the floor together with him, he asked me if I wanted to come to the French laundry. That was just like, uh, and the rest is kind of history. It was. I mean, people talk about luck all the time, and I don't. It's not something that I believe in.

I believe that you prepare for those occasions, and when those opportunities come, you're either prepared for them or not, or you rise to the occasion you're ready. So what I'm really curious what you feel has been the most significant kind of cultural shift for Samoyer's in America over the course of your career, because, as you said, when you were coming up, there was only one master Smollier in the entire state of Texas, and now you know there are more. Master Smoier's wine is a little bit

more part of the culture. And yet the role of the Samoier in like two thousand nineteen is kind of more ambiguous than it has been in a long time. So can you just speak on what your observations have been about the role of the samoier in your career.

Each generation wants to reinvent it. You know, they have a different interpretation that you know, and you think about, you know, some of the first says wearing you know, wearing tuxedos and rocking a taste of on right, and then that was it, and then the next generation would come along and we would change it. And it seems like each generation wants to have its own own mark

on it. Right, you know what I mean, like where you know, you look at something like natural wine now versus like I always came in on the tell part of a generation that really introduced development to Americans where you would go to a restaurant and they had more grew developing it than they had merlot before sideways right right. But also I feel like the role of and how of a summery has changed because the roles of restaurants have really changed, and the and the role of a

chef has really changed. And you know, and I do give some credit to that two Food Network, you know where I look at it and I see by putting chefs on TV, Yeah, it did peak everybody American's curiosity about food. And I feel like right now, at this point in two thousand nineteen, Americans food i Q is at its hies even its wine i Q is that its science has ever been. And I do attribute it to to Food Network, you know, tuition, you know, a

lot more kids joint culinary school. But also what I would say is is that people's fascination with fame is at an all time high. The reason why we have the president that we have is because of that, you know, and so Food Network gave this pathway to chefs for celebrity and putting chefs on television and people people wanted to glamour. And when when people start to see the glamour and those things, than obviously more people flocked to it same thing, more and more. You know, you have

more high fail profile restaurants. Those people have some WA's and then something like you know, the Psalm series takes off. Yeah, this plan, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, I mean, people have been dedicating their life to make something amazing out of it. It is living art and

you can't appreciate it until you consume it. It's a lot more than just Grape's and you know, and more and more people want to be a part of that sal amazing professionals that are supposed the experts about knowing about beverage in the wine palms. Now how to come the new rocks starts in our industry. Some of the most dedicated, obsessed people. But also I think that we've all shifted. You know, everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. It sounds much more exciting than actually what you might do,

you know what I mean. But that's what it is. You know, I heard a friend say the other day, you know, rappers wanted to be ballers, and ballers wanted to be rappers. Now they all want to be mobiles, right, So it's all shifted, and so you know, it's not

the same as before. It's like you were joining the daytime you were you were counting inventory and writing lists and doing education, and that night you put on your top hat and it was showtime and you got on the floor and you shook hands and you poured wine. I think less of that kind of happens now. You know, you have a lot of young people who are doing

the grunt work on the floor. For me, I felt like I always wanted to do things that the show other some ways that that there's that there's other stuff to do, And that was, you know, Paul Greco Greco Hello, I'm Paul Greco. Up to war Wine Barn. We are here to talk about the stuff that's in this glass wine,

or at least in my world, grape juice. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, it is just that grape juice with alcohol, and it has been with us since man's first steps on this bloody planet Earth, and for that I revere it. One day he said to me, He's like, when he found out I was making wines, I'm kind of skipping down. He's like, hey, why don't you bring the wines by? You know, we love to support Samya based projects because we want to show other some way's that there's life

after the floor. And I just thought that was remarkable, he said. I mean, he blew my mind even right now. I got chills. I was like, wow, like and here I was, I was like competitive and all this other ship, and I realized that no, no, your eyes absolutely right.

And so for me, from that moment on, I wanted to do things that I didn't see other some way he's doing right, pushing the boundaries and say that no, we belong here too, and we can do these things too, you know, Like I tell I was like, I don't want to be in any wine magazine. I want to be in the drops of God, you know, the coloring of the comic book, right, you know what I mean.

I just didn't think that we should just be combined to just wine magazines that were so much more than that and offer different things and we all have interesting lives and that kind of stuff. And so that for me is really the route I pursued. It wasn't just scratching the itch and wanted to be an entreneur. Making wine to me was really about out first and foremost was really wanting to continue to learn about wine from

a different focal point. So how long have you've just been working as a samoyer when you decided to transition into winemaking. Let's see, probably about six years. I was like, wow, okay, so I've done this for a long time, and I've given every In those six years, I've worked a lot, like you know, you know what I mean. It wasn't like, oh yeah, no I did my ship. No. I worked a lot like yeah, I should show up at seven o'clock before anybody was there. That's three hours before anybody

gets to work, right, you know what I mean? And I was like the one of the last people to leave. I just like for me, I just felt so behind, right because I felt like I got a late start. And so for me, I was always on this two for one three for one ship, like I just need to be around here and I need to be reductive, like I just you know, you can't substitute floor experience. Not being on the floor, right, you know, there's no way to really make that up except to be on

the floor. And so for me, I've worked a lot and I was in the restaurant a lot, and I had kind of gotten away from that, you know, at per Se, you know, I had five other sums worked

for me. I had a team of five, and so I didn't get the touch wine in the way that I used to, right, And I spent a lot of time, you know, managing people in and not just my team, but like being part of managers, meeting in front of the house, meetings, menu planning meetings, contingency planned meetings because the m t A was going on strike, you know, all of these things that really I felt that I

was moving further and further away from wine. And I was like, Okay, I want to change up here, and I want to I won't even want to learn about wine. And the only way to do that is is to go make my own. If I can make my own, That simultaneously scratched all these other issues I had. I always had a longing to be an entrepreneur on my own thing. And I also realized in that time that I was working for Thomas that that I was creative, like it was something that I just never knew. Maybe

I just never recognize those things. And I could do all of that if I if I could make my own wine, I could continue to learn about wine, I could be an entrepreneur. And because I own that company, it would give me more creative license, no doubt. And I when I think about the position that you are in today, it's a really unique position because you have managed to still be very much rooted in the wine industry as a as a wine maker, but you have

a lot of other projects that are popping um. You have you know, really stepped into the role of entrepreneurs. So can you talk about like how you think about your work or how you describe the work that you do, and how you see wine fitting into that work given all the different kinds of projects that you now have. And so wine is always been the foundation, will always be and a lot of the opportunities and the things that we have now actually grew from out of me

San Noir. And so you know, for me, it's it's all fun, right, it doesn't it doesn't. It never seems like it's worked. From making wine is like something fun and awesome and being able to like just really contribute to the culture of wine, this new culture of wine,

you know what I mean. Like when I started, we would take we make a wine called other People's Pano on the front label says opp And there were people that we presented the wine too, that we're embarrassed they wouldn't they wouldn't buy the wine because they couldn't picture it on their back bar, which I just thought was so ridiculous. It's irreverend, you know, the labels are your reverend for what it stands for the company and how

I carrid, but you know, we were Irreverend. It was you know, it was a lot of times it was bucking the system. You know, it doesn't all have to look like what it used to look like. And just the fact that I showed up anywhere within the confines of wine and or or building this company, or going to taste or interacting with the wine community, I challenge the status quo just by showing up because there was

no one who looked like me. And of course everybody put their foot in their mouth, right, you know what I mean, because they just didn't know, you know, they didn't know how to say it, but I got I understood, like you're just not used to seeing people like me in this role, and hopefully one day that will change. But Wine has always been the foundation for what for what we do and to stretch the boundaries and to

add to the culture like from us. You know, we integrated like streetwear and street and skateboarding all into into Wine and we treated our T shirt line as as a streetwear line and that was really you know, that's really been satisfying. It's really contributed to like no one had T shirts like how we were making them. Now everybody has them. I just wanted to do ship that's cool.

You know. We made a video game, and so in two thousand and fourteen, we came out with a coloring book called Small Time Cooks and it was just really fun, kind of novelty, and it's novelty about food knowledge and had your favorite chefs and food personalities and mind people in it. And it's been really fun. And by the way, you know, I've committed to twenty volumes of that thing, so we've only had one come out. And you did all the illustrations in there too, right, Yeah, yeah, I

did all of it. You know, and that's what was really create great right being able to. And I also I self published it, all of it, because I wanted to see the process from start to finish, uh, and I wanted to own that. And most recently, you know, I wrote a book and Abrams is publishing it, and so we went the route of of working with the publisher, which has been a very very very very very different

experience for me, but nonetheless it is done. It is called Nine Bottles, a Black Sheep's Guide to Life Changing Wines. I know that sounds pretentious in some ways, but when I say life changing minds, we mean the wines that have changed my life and have shaped my life. So the book is partment war and part wine guide. We highlight and talk about the bottles that shape my wine life story. So it's got illustrations and you know, it

has my own branded sense of humor. Um, we're opening the family business called and Sons here in Brooklyn, and that is an American chicouterie bar. So it's all American chicouterie, all American cheese, uh, and all American wine with the focus on wines from the sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties. So reminiscent of the famous Hammon bars that you see in Barcelona. This is my attempt to share with the world that I believe that Kentucky and Tennessee and Virginia

are like our stain in Italy. And want to tell you know, we've been curing hams for a very long time and I really want to be able to share that with people. And I think it's a preservation of American food culture. So really tiny twenty seat bar, plates of ham, plates of cheese, really great wine, and the next stor we have our buttery, which is h which is our little deli that you can buy the meats

and cheeses to go. So just really trying to like I don't know, haven't done like like live our best lives. I mean, you know. Also, I just feel like, you know, people who work in restaurants to me, they just seem to be better people, you know, they have a different better understanding of people's needs and wants and those kind of things that I feel like it's important for my kids to to do some of that, to grow up

in that. And so we wanted to introduce these things to the world, you know, and my neighborhood is changing, and I felt like, what better way to be a part of the narrative of what this new neighborhood is going to be than being able to for me and my wife to be able to offer something to contribute

to the said narrative. And we've worked in restaurants all our life, and you know this, this place is really just an extension of our living room where we love to host people and have parties, and you know, just taking it the next step. You know, my wife was like, I need I need my vegetable Christopher back, you know what I mean. So I was trying to about um I a credit how I was seeing the world to

you know. Two thousand four, in New York, David Chang opens up Momofuko and going there and like knowing his background and then seeing the kind of food that he was putting out to me, it changed everything. You know, people thought I was crazy. I was like, dude, do you understand everything's gonna change? And they're like, what are

you talking about? Like and you know, so I go from like hanging out there two or three nights a week and then walking through the kitchen at per Se during a busy service, and you realize that there's forty kids back there, all bent over a plate with tweezers and ship and you realize you're like all of those guys, almost all of them aspired to be restauranturs one day. Only a small percentage of them aspired to actually have a restaurant like the one they were currently working at,

Like Michelin three Star. They wanted to do it on their own terms, so wearing shell to Padita's, wearing a black Sabbath T shirt and listening to their own music. That didn't mean that the food was any less less quality, Like you didn't need your way to wear a two Amani tie, you didn't need to wear a Gucci soup. And it was that moment that I was like, and I was like, all of these guys are going to

go back to where they came from. You know, eventually the roosters come home to roost, and I want to I want to make wine for those restaurants. That was my target was those restaurants. And I was gonna show up dressed the way that I was, and the chef was going to be dressed the way that they were. It just it just changed the game and I realized that I wanted to make wine for these for those new restaurants because everything was gonna be. It just came

without all the pomp and circumstance. Well, you had the vision, man, and you have been a pioneer in so many ways, as a summer as a winemaker, as an illustrator, independent publisher, as an author, as a soon to be homme bar owner, as a watch up onner, etcetera, etcetera. I know I've I've already probably done you some disservices. Oh yeah, and the video GameMaker too. So big shout out to you man for everything that you've done and continue to do. Huge inspiration, as I said, not just for me and

so many others in and outside of the industry. Really appreciate you and appreciate you coming to chat with us today about your work in your life. Anytime, my friend, anytime. Thank you so much. Um, alright, thank you, thank you. I appreciate you man. That was and Mac the founder of mice on Noir. We can find him online at Mac Mac with a K, and that's on Instagram. You want to follow mess on our Wines, just mess on no our Wines is our handle. Across all social media.

All right, check them out. All right, man, I appreciate you. I'll talk to you soon. Well, my friend, thank you all right? Are you too? H m hm m m m m m m m m m m m m. And that's it for this episode. Point of Origin is a podcast from My Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine, executive produced by Christopher Hasciotis and hosted by me Steven Saderfield.

Special thanks to Cat Hong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins, and a very special thanks to my business partner, wet Stone co founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks mel and thanks to all of you for supporting wet Stone and listening to the Point of Origin podcast for all of the latest on all things point of Origin. You can follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine or online at wet Stone Magazine dot com. We'll see you next week at the Point of Origin.