Hi. This is Kyle Bondo. And this is Tim Brian, and you're listening to PodRx, the podcast about how to survive the podcast industry. What is pod ricks? I think that's what we're gonna talk about today. We're gonna talk about what is Potteryk. What does it mean to be potteryk? And how can you become potteryk? And more importantly, How can you not become PodRact? We're gonna talk about how you survive the industry of podcasting.
And in this is our very first episode, we're gonna get into some of the do's and don'ts of understanding not just podwrecked or podwrecking, but podfading and some of the pieces involved in that, and then we're gonna get into some of the bigger issues of how the industry can really benefit you or hurt you as an indie podcaster. And, Kyle, don't forget. We're also going to feature our new section in this. Tim's
forecast. Well, okay. We'll get to that. We'll get to the forecast. We'll probably have to create something new for that. Right? The a forecast page of some kind you know, called Nosford, a timorodamus, if you would. Okay. So let's let's get into that. What the heck is Pod Rec. So the concept behind Pod Rec was when I first heard a recent article talk about there are 600000
podcasts out there in Apple Podcasts or iTunes. Whatever you wanna say it. Hey, Apple. Hundred bucks. Right? I mean, you're stealing from from Ray Edwards. Ray Edwards, big fan. Thank you, Ray. We're 7100 bucks. I can't really I'm gonna surge him. I love that guy. So so you have the 600000. Mhmm. This is not the boatload of of podcast out there. And there's a new podcast we're looking at that size
of the industry. I mean, it's not blogging. Right. If you were looked at blogging, I mean, we're talking like in a hundred with millions. Right? Yeah. Podcasting is still pretty small. The 600000 podcasts is a lot. Mhmm. Because if you compare it to, like, TV, let's compare it to TV. How many science fiction shows are on the TV show, right, on the network right now? Or maybe let's simplify even more. How many
how many zombie shows are out there? Like, 2 or 3. Right. Right. Right. Right. It is, like, you know, world war zombie or world z, and maybe there's eyes, zombie, and of course, walking dead. Fear the walking dead, the spin off. Mhmm. If you were to do a dot a zombie show, you're gonna compare it to Walking Dead. But really, you could do 1 in another network, it'd be okay. Be competing, maybe different ideas, be alright. In podcasting, let's say you wanted to do a podcast about sports.
Well, if you go into the iTunes and look at sports as a as a as a category. You're gonna shoot you 200 freaking podcasts. And from those 200 freaking podcasts, you're gonna go, like, there's a lot of podcasts out there about sports. What if I wanna do it on the Seattle Seahawks, my favorite team. There you go. Which
that's a podcast from I'm Arizona Carlos. I'm right there with Well, I'm it's not that they're winning or losing. It's I'm I'm I'm not a fan of the NFL right now. So -- Understood. -- I've chose 2018 to not watch So NFL? No. You don't have to send us any money because we ain't watch it. No hundred bucks for you. No. Well, anyways, Monday night and we're recording this. So obviously, we're not watching it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I've I've I've not watched. In fact, I plan on DVR ing the Super Bowl and going to the movies. So take that NFL.
There you go. How much are you paying for those Ad Space people? There you go. Anyway, you wanna do a podcast on sports and you see this vastness of how much crap is out there. Maybe you wanna talk about all kinds of sports, 1 of the general sports, the the weekly updates. Maybe you want to talk about particular about this particular team.
The amount of things are out there is just it's just vast. And that's only 200 that'll show you on iTunes. If you start digging even deeper, You're gonna find out that there's way more podcasts on sports than just in Apple Podcasts. Mhmm. Because there are directories all over the place, Spotify, SoundCloud, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, or tune in. Podcast
podcast podcast. Well, podcast polls from iTunes, so you so you get that. But they but they sometimes they I mean, they sneak some stuff. I mean, it's really weird how some of these apps kind of sneak some stuff in. Mhmm. And how they behave. That that being said, there's a lot of, like, barnacles hanging off of of iTunes -- Mhmm. -- and Apple Podcasts in its whole. Now, I'm looking at all these podcasts. He's 600000
podcasts. And if you're just starting this you're starting right now in this industry, you're like, Where do I What the Where do we start? Yeah. There's there's someone's already doing it. Why, you know, why would he even wanna do that on this road? Well, then you go and read more in this article and you find out there's something like a hundred and 50 of actually active podcasts. Right. So 25, 30 percent are real. So what's that make the other 450000
podcasts? That makes them these wrecks. Mhmm. And that's really the concept behind the show, PodDirect, is it is these podcasts that have smashed themselves on the rocks of podfading, obscurity.
They're either courses that someone launched and never stop paying for because long the RSS feed is vile, is is is valid. It's out there. It's out there. ITunes will maintain indefinitely. There is no rules for for doing that. And on top of that, if you put your show in iTunes, Apple Podcast, in 2006, 2007, you get a point forever subscriber. You do not lose a point if they unsubscribe.
Right. So they've had what 12 year head start and you're just starting now and that show that hasn't been live for years is number 1 or number 10 or number 20. You'll never get up there unless you, a, order your ass off and get as many subscribers they have and overtake them that way. Sure. Option 1. Option 2, game the system and do what some of the other people do -- Mhmm. -- and kind of cheat your way up there. Option 3, why bother?
Right? So that's really that's that's the concept behind pod or behind not beyond podfater. That's a different podcast. Yeah. It's a different podcast. Find that PodFater dot com. I owe myself a hundred bucks. That's a whole different podcast. That's like the a a group for podcasters. This is about what the this is the the pod rack. Right? We're we're smashing the industry open to see what's inside. Oh, tagline. And smashing the industry. See what's open.
Well Okay. So anyway, comment on that. So tell me what you think about that kind of concept. And and I'm gonna bring up PodFader versus pod rack because when I was thinking about it, podFader is something that can be done over time. It slowly goes away. Okay. I'm not gonna do this episode. You know, you've already got your podcast going, oh, I'll miss this episode. Oh, I'll miss that episode.
Almost a month. Oh, it's been a year since I've, you know, done a podcast since I've done an episode. Right. Pod rack is, boom, I'm not doing any more episodes. I'm gone. See you later. That's an interesting distinction because a podfade does happen kind of like I mean to go back. Right. And then you never do. Exactly. It kind of fade away in that sense, in your own head. So there's a psychology of this -- Mhmm. -- or a pod rack,
you can only say a pod rack is a pod fade. Mhmm. Than no 1 ever comes back to. So at some point, there's a shelf life of the PodFate. Mhmm. Because I went through 1 of these in in PodFater where we talked about What is the definition of a pause? You know, I take a I take a week off. Mhmm. That's a pause. That is. Then I put my show on hiatus.
Rood. I use a fancy Latin word. Basically. What's that mean? Well, it's more than a week. Right? Okay. We're just we're adding metrics to this. Mhmm. And then at what point does a hiatus or a pause become a pause fade or a pod fade? Mhmm. Well, that's arbitrary.
If you if you plan on coming back, you've technically pawn fated until you decide to be a podcaster again. It's a cycle. If I'm fading out the music, but fade you know, with the intention of I'm gonna fade back in that music, you just never fade back in that music. And, you know, a podfade can lead to a pod rack or a pod rack of pod rack with KDOI podcasting when it was chemo set up in equity way back on a blog talk radio.
I just stopped doing it because life happened. I had, you know, birth of twins.
That's a psychological thing then. Yeah. It's easy. So so PodFade and PodRack are things that happen inside the podcasters brain. Right. You've decided that you're never going back. You're gonna start something completely different. Exactly. That's a pod wreck. That is a pod wreck. Yep. If the RSS feed remains alive and that show is still out there, people can get it. Right. That's definitely a pot rack because now I can see it floating on the rocks, they're on the beach. And my old show is still out there. You can still see it in Vietnam, iTunes, but you know what? You can't
you can't play it. Okay. You can't play it. Okay. You can't play it? Because what I did is I took it off of I took everything off of the server that was on with
a a blog talk radio, and I have it in my laptop here. Oh, I want to listen to some really bad podcasting. I have it here So if we if we torture this metaphor even further, we can call that pod sunk. Is it Finally disappears, you can ever get it. It goes underneath the ocean. Exactly. And it's no longer. Now, of course, I'm a sailor. So -- You're gonna find it. -- I have to do a titanic thing in there, and you're gonna raise it.
I think I can't even remember that song, you know. Trouble me like your French women. Yes.
It's a it's a but the way you think about it is if it's if it's a RSS feed that you can still get episodes from. Right. That's the wreck. That's smashed on the rocks. Mhmm. And let's say you want to take your podcast, your pod ship, the SS podcast -- Mhmm. -- pass the wreck to the beach, you have to get around all this flotsam and jetsam and sharp pointy things and in pieces of debris. And it's really a great metaphor for what is leftover of 1 pod rack in 2012.
Right. And now you wanna get in there, but they have a hundred thousand subscribers total -- Mhmm. -- ever in the history of their podcast. They may not have any subscribers now. What? It may be complete. Go ship. And, Kyle, you're talking about you're talking just about the podcast itself. Yeah. You're not even we haven't even touched on the news around podcasting. We haven't talked about the services around podcasting because if you go into YouTube, not sponsoring this, hundred bucks a month.
If you go on YouTube, and and put in how to podcast. There's a crap little videos out. Yeah. That's a whole another There's oh, I like that. Okay. I like that pod. Cast. Okay. There's, you know, pod network news and and there's different newsletters that you can grab the news from that how do you know the info that you're getting
is accurate up to date perfect? You know, the info that you're going to need that you you've got to navigate not only gonna navigate all these podcasts that are out there that aren't active anymore and that you're competing against. So you're competing against dead podcasts. But you're also trying to figure out you're trying to it's like you got 30 different maps to go to the same port. Wow. And See if No. See, this is this is why I have Tim on the show. This is why Tim is the cohost of PodRack.
It takes an artist to go meta. And Tim just went meta on this analogy -- This metaphor. -- metaphor analogy. Oh. Yeah. I looked that up at some point. Yeah. Where we went from PodRecht as being the leftovers on Apple App Podcasts to PodRecht being the crap that's out there, the bad information, the people who tell you you have 8 weeks to get a new new new and noteworthy inside Apple iTunes. Otherwise, you don't you that's it. Life hurt. The game over, man. Game over.
You have those kind of people out there -- Mhmm. -- not to mention, don't forget, I was a victim of that once upon a time. Sure. My first microphone was the blue snowball. Oh my. The blue snowball is is okay. Let's okay. Not gonna bust on blue. Blue makes great products for people who wanna do who sing and who what need that kind of stuff. People love the blue yeti. I'm talking on a t r 100 from audio technica. He's talking on a Zoom h 5 from Zoom.
I learned from the best because he was Kaya was telling me to get a h 4 and and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do 1 better than my master. 1 better than In plus 1.
I must go I was looking at the h 6. And then I was looking at my baby's need milk for the next month. So I gotta go with the h 5. Yeah. You you pick the tool that's right for the job. Right? Yeah. But the the point of that is is is there's all sorts of these YouTube videos and tutorials and blog posts out there that have been around forever.
And if you type in podcasting or how to podcast inside the Google -- Mhmm. -- you're gonna get this endless shipyard of smashed and ghost ships of podcasting lessons gone, you know, of of your, of yes or your, out there too. Okay. So we have ruined podcasts. We have ruined podcast knowledge. What else do we have? Well, I I and, you know, we're kinda getting on this negative bent here, but That's my day when I was doing theater. If she floats, she's a witch. And if she sinks, she's a witch.
Then she must be with her dad. And and and there we go to the Monty Python. Oh my god. And it only took us how many minutes ago to be. Oh, I know. But, I mean, we're we're talking about the the being this as a negative thing. But if we look at these podcasts that have have podcasts, Let's find out why they didn't. What mistakes did they do? Let's do what what we call in the theater a a postmortem. Absolutely. You know, Why did that happen?
Well, because x, y, and z, we've got a look at well, first off, as a podcaster, you have to know why am I doing this podcast you know, it's gotta be your voice. It's gotta be your point of view. Yeah, there's, you know, a hundred and 25000 active pod out there. Active are they doing every month, every week, every day? You know, that's it's arbitrary. Really kind of what active evening means. So even active by itself could be forms of fady,
wrecky in a sense. Right. Where if I'm doing a show, you know, I'm gonna show every week and then suddenly I stop. Mhmm. And then I start showing a show once a month, and then I stop. And then I do a show every other month. Am I a wreck? You know, my audience is probably dwindled -- Right. -- unless this unless this is a topic that can carry that kind of that kind of pausing.
And there was a discussion of the 1. Like, go back to football. Well, let's go back to football. Football seasonal. Exactly. You know, I'm gonna talk about the Seattle seahawks for a certain period of time. And then the the season's over. What do I talk about? Right. When I talk about post season injuries, that kind of thing. That's getting that's not gonna last very long. Yeah. You know, contract stuff, which Yeah. So grainy stuff and, you know, who's gonna traded who they do that post season, they do the the, you know, changing up the roster. Right. And then we get into some of the draft stuff, and then we get into the the seasonal training stuff, and we're back in football again. There is a natural ebb and flow to some topics. And as long as you, you know, we were getting I was getting into this conversation with somebody on 1 of the multiple Facebook groups that I'm on, oh my god, I'm on too many of them. I'm not guessing.
No. Not really. You should look at it. It's just it is. Underdogs. And and I blame Kyle Bondell and I fear in get lost racing and merchants of dirt and and all of his podcast. Yeah. How many of my pod fated holy smokes? I'm like a pod I'm a pod wreck all by myself. But, I mean,
this whole thing came naturally as as long as you're communicating that with your listeners. Yeah. On saying, hey, listen. Like, for Kdy podcasting. Yes. I'm paying myself hundred dollars for that. Yes. But I let them know that, hey, I'm not coming back until January. See, I didn't. Yeah. I got to episode 50 of Merchant's Adurt, and I gave them, like, the big supersized bonus version, almost like a comic book. Yeah. You know, episode their issue 50 of a comic book usually is, like, double sized. Exactly. It's like it was a double sized episode. Mhmm. And then I just, like, dropped the mic. I haven't touched that podcast since June. Mhmm. So did I technically pod rack that podcast? Like, that's a 50. I've talked pretty much everything I wanted to say about that podcast. Right. I didn't really, you know, the audience
I mean, it's weird is I'll go back and look at my stats and I'll get spikes. Every week, I'll get spikes. If I get mentioned somewhere, I get a spike. Some people go back and look at that stuff. And it's become kind of like my encyclopedia of that topic, which just happened to be how to build races. So if you wanna build a race, you can listen from 1 to 50 and bang, you know, Bob's your uncle, you're not an expert. Could I talk about another 50 worth episodes of that? Sure.
But I wanted to do something else. But I haven't stopped paying for that. So it's still out there. Still alive. Still get the stuff out there. No. Is that a pod wreck or a pod fade? I mean, it really gets into the nomenclature of of what the the the decision of this is.
And I I can I think a podfade, I can turn on anytime? Mhmm. I think a pod wreck is it's over. And I we go back to what's I think it's inside your head. Bingo. Psychologically. Watch my attention. Yeah. I think I could turn that back on. Because there's a couple, like, get lost racing is another 1. It's an encyclopedia of endurance sports. Right. Pick a new 1 every every week and talk about it. Right? Bingo.
There are I got a whole I got a whole spreadsheet full of them. I can go and, you know, just spend a couple hours in research and drop an episode that's 10, 15 minutes long. No problem. Mhmm. But I haven't. Why? Wanna do something else. So I put her aside. Mhmm. So these are the kind of the kind of decision making your head psychologically of the the kind of the pod Ricky, pod feeder, Psychosis, in a sense, or psychological psych psychology. Wow. There we go. Oh.
It's a 4 dollar word. He's up in Eliphi. Be hard. Can I help you? Yeah. We even got to Penelope in a minute here. But the thinking about that that kind of in that kind of context is is as a pod wreck. Mhmm. I think we could probably draw some conclusions about certain podcasts on what happened. Mhmm. Case in point, you have someone who did a conference.
They did 15 episodes of the conference, which is if they released it as an audiobook, it would be an hour long audiobook, but they broke it into a podcast. Mhmm. The episodes 1 through 5 15, that's it. And they evergreen, they roll it around, they talk about it every now and then. Right. But it's really never going to be more there's never gonna be an episode 16. Right. It's it's it's a complete package. Those are out there. Are they technically active podcasts?
I would argue, no. Because they're never gonna be their their marketing tools. Then someone could so they come along and say, are they even podcasts or are they marketing tools being delivered in a podcast format? That's maybe an argument for another day. Well, let's just say that's number 1. Number 2. There's another podcast that used to be a huge listener of. Called the Adhesated Podcast sent by Daniel j Lewis. He, 1 day -- Mhmm. -- he just stopped recording. And you're like, what happened?
And and you got some sense of some of his other media that there was something going on. And it turned out that he had he had some family issues. Right. Right? Don't need to get into it. If you wanna find out, go check his stuff out. He talks in sad detail of what happened. Yeah. Anyway, his family issues caused him to stop doing some of his shows. Some of a lot of his stuff got got away. So family issues definitely a huge contributor to people stopping
their podcast. Sure. So you have family issues, I would even say the birth of children probably are a big deal because, you know, I'm a father of 4. I, you know, I understand what it's like to have no time and being that you're just a newbie with with twins. Right? Yeah. It's it's still it's it's it's a the challenge to work podcast because broadcasting takes work. You know, just buy a microphone and some equipment and start talking. Mhmm. That's like that's the
the 10000 foot view of podcasting. It requires you to do some thinking do some designing, do some research. I mean, it takes a lot of work. So kids don't I'm gonna argue a little bit with you. Oh, I like this. Alright. A little bit with tension. Let's do this. It is work if you want it to be work. Oh, so it's motivation. Want it to be. Because at the end of the day, I mean, there's a ton of protest out there. There's a ton of them. You can get them anywhere you want to, and you can see them on all the Facebook stuff out there. They're sitting around drinking beer, having a good time with their friends.
Happens a lot to a lot of podcasts out there. Some of them are even popular. Some people wanna hear that. And and, you know, how much work goes into it, you can hire it out. You can hire out on fiber to get your logo. You can hire somebody out to set up your website back in on fiber. Okay. So it it it doesn't necessarily take that much work. Now if you wanna put out a quality product,
that takes the work. That takes the intention because I think a lot of those 400000 podcasts that are out there that are not active, that people got tired of the work. They didn't wanna put in the work to do it. Now, you know, there's always gonna be somebody out there that and and you see it as well as I do on all the Facebook sites that we're on.
There's always somebody out there that goes, hey, you know, I've been doing this for like 3 episodes and I got 10000 per episode and I've got a sponsor and I'm making making 1500 dollars a month. Such baloney. And that was, you know, in in good form, you know, if it has actually had If it's true. Congratulations. We have a we have a time with it. That in the megaball ticket in Bob Jeronka. Right? You know, somebody just won the 1600000.0 a billion in in South Carolina. Fantastic.
Yeah. You know, good on them. They didn't put well, they put some work into it. They had to go and grab the ticket, but But what's that phrase? You know, the the 10 years to overnight success? How's that phrase still? 10000 hours. 10000 hours until your overnight success. Right. He was an overnight success after 10000 hours worth of work. Mhmm. Yeah. It's that kind of thing is, like, do those 3 episodes?
What was behind that? Maybe they've done 300 episodes. And this was the first 3 episodes of their brand new show. Mhmm. That got 1. But that I usually see those posts and none of that context is ever there. That's true. Yeah. The hard slog is always overlooked if it's ever there. But even if it is true, then he was in the right place or she was in the right place. At the right time, they knew the right person -- Yeah. -- and the right person heard it and promoted it. It's not them doing it. It's somebody promoting it. So you're always gonna have that. I it doesn't bug me whatsoever. So
you're trying to say then that so motivation to build the content to do the work is the key. Yeah. And there are so rather than it being a cause of pod wrecking or podfading, There are a ton of excuses for not doing the work. Legitimate or not. Exactly. Yeah. Having a kid is a legitimate excuse for not any time. Absolutely.
But I've known people who have had kids and made time. I know people that people still go to work. Right? You have a kid. You have children. Yep. You have a child show up in your life. In your family. Oh. And you spend some time off of work to, you know, initiate that child into your family. Oh. And at some point, you gotta eat. Bingo. And you go back to work. You find the time to go back to work. Sure. So is podcasting then, I could then argue
So let me throw this at you. Then would you see that more podcasters who are doing this for their dinner -- Mhmm. -- last longer than those who are doing it as a hobby. Well, that's Those that are doing it for their dinner, I think,
because I'm talking about skin in the game. Yeah. You don't have any skin in the game? Quit in the podcast piece k. Gotta turn off the microphone, walk out the door, bobs, you know. There you go. M c copy, runkel like 5 times now. Well and and that's okay. She definitely drink every time I say. Instead of having, you know, mister Murphy, we have Bob, you know, margins. You know, that they'll be our our punchy bag, mister Murphy, hundred bucks.
Okay. But anyway, yeah, talk about that. Talk about do you think about that? So I I think folks that have skin in the game will continue to better their product. And again, it's how you view what you're doing. Is it a product? Or is it my hobby? Is it something I do on the weekends? So you you have to be really clear and really clear in your intention on what do you want out of podcasting. So, you know, what is a podcast to you? What do you want out of this?
And and what are you willing to do to sacrifice time out of your life? No skin in the game. Yeah. No motivation. And now you're talking even more probably more deeply rooted is you don't have your vision or your why.
Exactly. Included in that too. So if you don't have the passion for it -- Mhmm. -- and you don't have the motivation, which I think is different. Right. Different than passion. I have lots of passion and not do anything. Right. And then you can be motivated. You can go to the gym every day. You can be motivated.
You've got nothing connected to it that will make you feel pain if you stop doing it. Those are 3 big factors, I think. Exactly. No. And I agree with you that. Now, the folks that are getting paid for it, you know, getting paid to do do they turn out a better product than Joe Blow down the street that is just doing a podcast? Mhmm. Okay. Well, what is you could probably argue that, yes, more than no. Mhmm. But it's not but they're putting out a product which I would expect them to have more
polish to it. Mhmm. But then you look at their listeners. And do their listeners care about all that? Do your listeners wanna have ads in the show? Do they care about ads in the show? A trend that I'm saying a lot is, folks are saying, hey, toss me 2 bucks a month, and I will shoot you the show without ads.
No. Interesting. You know, I'm seeing that with 20000 hertz. They have a thing where they'll go ahead and Do you give me 2 bucks? Do you get it without the ads? Is that 2 bucks worth it to me? No. Because maybe I listened to the ad, maybe I don't. I do have a Casper bed. Did I get that Casper bed because of a podcast?
Not really. What I did is I did my research online. I went on Amazon, red reviews, I talked to people that had the Casper bed. Unfortunately, I didn't get to I mean, you do get to test drive it for 90 days. But I asked people, I looked at reviews, that I hear in the podcast? Is it a joke in the podcasting world of us podcasters? Yes, it is. But could you say that you could heard it 7 or 10 or 50 times on a podcast that subconsciously your brain was already telling you, yeah, Casper Man,
Is that possible? Is it They call those but those impressions? Those marketing impressions? Times do they have to do that? I don't know. I think there's a couple of guys in New York City. Slapping themselves high fives for captain mattress. If that's where they're from, maybe they're not I'm not too sure where they're from. You know, cast a mask. Dude, or if you're Get a rope. Right? But that's really kind of the concept behind those ads being inside those those things. Of course, this
is a whole different topic. Sure. Yeah. But you make a great point is skin of the game. You make it feel pain. My motivation. My passion Right. Well, maybe a fourth 1 is no one's listening. Mhmm. And maybe people stop in PodRack and PodFade because of the 5 minutes of ads. Or even another 1 I heard recently where I think it was Pod Save America was 1 of the it was just like it was there are 9 or 10 ads in there. Now it's not a lot all, you know, product ads. Mhmm. But they're asking for money
2 minutes into the show. Right. You know, send donations to here and connect with here and be a part of this and do this and here's an ad and here's an ad. Oh, and now we're gonna talk about something. Mhmm. Yeah. That is I mean, that's I believe in once upon a time, there was this thing called flash. Oh, god. It was really cool. Everyone was doing swift swift swift swifts. Right? We don't flash intro on my website.
I need all the emotion graphics. And the joke in the flash world and the web world at the time was that you had this massive bloated motion graphics thing at the beginning. Sure. Did it look cool? Yeah. It looked really cool. Compared to HTML 3 or 4 at the time -- Right. -- it was awesome compared to the garbage it was out there. Mhmm. However, it took forever to load, you know. Sure. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.
Right. You know, you bing ding. You got mail. That kind of stuff. Right. You have that going on with the the bandwidth was still a challenge. It got so bloated that they started putting things on there because you were forced to watch it every single time you went to a website. Mhmm. So what did developers do? They added something called a skip intro.
What's the first thing you do to come to the website? You hit the skip intro and just go right to the website and forget that stuff. Well, it kinda defeated the whole point of having the damn thing. Right. Which may or may not have advertising in it, may or may not have, you know, some sort of logo identification, played music. God knows what was in those things. Let's skip intro. Well, the flash world really got hammered because of that or flash became the the kind of concept behind that was
Why have Flash? What's the point? Yeah. If no one's looking at it? If no one's looking at what's the point? Advertising, I think, is is may or may not have reached that level in podcasting too. What's the point? There are some new data out there that show the statistics of listeners
of them skipping your ads where you can see the dips where they're skipping 30 seconds or minute at the forehead. Sure. Yeah. Because they can because they're all the pod I use PocketCast. Yeah. I do. TigerCast got 30 seconds ahead. Man, I use that button a lot in some of my podcasts because the ads are just a little much. Well, it reminds me of back in the day, I'm gonna sound like the old guy here. And I'm back in the day, and you're the old guy.
And you're the old guy too. How am I the old guy? Oh, that's right. Yeah. You got me by a few months. Yeah. Okay. So coast to coast with Art Bell. Okay. Alright. So we we would listen No. Wait. Wait. I'm talking to you back in the day before podcasting. I know there's BP and there's AP. Kids were talking about the nineties. Oh. The nineties where we all oh, jeez. So I'm gonna diverge here for a second. Okay. So it took the girls, you know, on Halloween to a doctor appointment,
and their doctor there is dressed all in neon and 80 stuff, and like, oh, this is what we used to wear in the eighties. And I'm like, that is what I used to wear in the eighties. Shut off. In 19 88, that was called Thursday. That was a cool man. Freddie was parachute pants day in 1 in 1 level. Beat it. Oh, yeah. So
moving back from the eighties. Okay. Mhmm. Hey. We're back. No. You can dance if you want to, let's ever go. Now we're on the ninth. That was that was Now you yeah. Now we're on the room in the eighties, now we're in the nineties. Right? There we go. Back in the nineties. So you you would listen to our bell. And he would add up I have on a few from commercials. It wasn't too bad, but it was radiology and different format. A few commercials.
Skip had a few years and it switched from heart belt to Nora -- Yeah. -- margin Nora. And it is ad after ad. It is almost unlistenable. Because you have like 4 ads and then maybe 10 minutes not even 10 minutes of talk and then another 3 ads maybe another 5 minutes a time. And the ad time is, you know,
I I stopped listening to it. I I like the stuff. Because you can't skip that stuff. Yeah. You can't Live radio is you're just that you're you're stuck with it. Yeah. You're you're a passenger now. Pop ahead here. And what I'm seeing is, like I said, with the 20000 hertz thing, you know, like, 2 bucks a month, that's not too bad, but think about satellite radio.
When you have satellite radio, you have very few ads if no ads at all, but you're paying 40 bucks a month, 30 bucks a month, 4 to to have no ads. I think that's probably where we're gonna go to. So how Oh, a future prediction. How Tim Brian just predicted future prediction of podcasting. Well but if you think about okay. So 20000 We're gonna put that on our prediction list. There we hey. We've just started a prediction list. Congratulations.
Prediction number 1. And I don't think it's gonna be good for podcast. And here's why I don't think it's gonna be good. It worked really well with Sirius and XM. Okay. They were the only 2, you know, things in the neighborhood. So they have a they have a monopoly on the market. Right? They got a monopoly. Panopto. Oh, hey. We come to Panopto. So Yeah. That's episode 2. That's episode 2 now. This is episodes. 0 episode 0. 0 episode 1. 0 1. Yes. Welcome to PodFader. No. Welcome to Pod rack.
Get on the right show. Lord, where am I? Yes. You're in a dramatic community count. Welcome 1, 2. Podrex. So I think I see where you're you're kinda going with this. Yeah. Because if you if you do that as an advertiser, why am I going to put my stuff on your show when you are going to be having your audience pay not to hear my ad that I'm putting on your show. Well, let me let me throw back at you then the idea of of Hulu. Mhmm. Because I have a Hulu account. Yeah. And within my Hulu account,
I get ads. Yeah. Then it's like, well, would you like the the Super Pro Deluxe Hulu account? No. I thought the Hulu account the first Hulu account was the non ad kind. Well, we keep the price low -- Right. -- because you get the minimal ads -- Right. -- or you could do, like, to do, like, in overseas
in some of the other countries where they have 15 minutes of all the ads than the show. Mhmm. BBC America even kinda does this where you get you get the brought to you by and the ads and who got you. And then you get the the petroleum ad and the, you know, the education ad and the arts ad. And then boom, the show starts, you get 45 minutes of pure show. Right. And then it's over and it's ad, ad, ad, ad. Right? They break up, you know, almost like, cable
like, paid HBO kinda does this too. There's people showing, you know, they're advertising their own stuff. Exactly. Makes a lot of sense, but there is can podcasting survive a paid model, a subscriber based model? Which I I think it can if we have
and it maybe Apple does it, maybe Google does it, maybe Amazon does it. Yeah. You know, Amazon hasn't really 1 of the kind of the poor horsemen in this whole deal is is Amazon really hasn't tipped their hat into the podcasting world quite yet. And I can see Amazon doing that and doing it better than Apple and in Google because think about it. Amazon is everywhere. You know, when when you get something you can get Apple products off Amazon. Right? Google doesn't really sell you anything.
Google, you can research and get out to everybody unless you wanna do some Unless you wanna email with your domain name in it. I guess you could buy that. It cost me 5 bucks a month. So Well, there yeah. You have some products. And you're paying for cloud space. True. They just Google just changed their maps API too. If you want the the maps API, you have to have a Google Cloud account. If you go over 200 users or 200 clicks -- Mhmm. -- on your map, they start to charge you. Oh, wow. Yeah.
A lot of what people are not happy about that. But anyway, that's got blue in your door. But I would say I would say then so is is the pay is So to to tie up the the advertiser thing -- Mhmm. -- is having too many advertisers that killed your audience 1 of the reasons why you podorex
when you didn't realize it in time. I've got sponsors. I've got ad reads. Look at only on my my hundreds of dollars I'm making. And now I have no audience. And then because I have no audience, everyone's left me. The advertisers, of course, see my stats and say, oh, they're gonna leave me We're done. And you're just like, well, screw this. Podcasting doesn't work. I'm done. Mhmm. And you get Would you would you say that's a possibility?
I'm saying that's happening. Oh, okay. I'm saying that's -- Right. -- that's happening right now. And then there's smoke. There's fire. Somebody is going to, at some point, I I think people podcasts are successful when they have are 3 mines. 1 mine is the listener. Yes. Who were there for? Agreed. 1 mind is your if you're gonna accept advertiser dollars, you gotta have you gotta be you're in a business.
This isn't, you know, hey, you know, let's all be nice, touchy, feely, you know, like us, Liberals like to do. A little so that's that's a little less direct a lot of people don't treat this as a business. We know this. Okay. And it and it can be if you want it to be. If you don't want it to be, don't mess with the advertisers. Go out and do it for fun, which is not what I mean, a lot of people are going, I'm going to podcast and make the books. Yeah. Look at all this money.
I'm not. I'm and and I've dipped my toe in the whole thing. And what I've dipped my toe is the whole t t public thing. Do you know? T shirts, mugs, and all that kind of stuff. Books. There you go. You pay a hundred bucks for shipping too. Oh my god. Yeah. And that's a downfall of that. But, you know, I'm gonna put it in there. If somebody wants it, it's their form. And I wanna, you know, put it in every episode. Okay. And that's me advertising for myself.
If I make any money off of it, I don't have to think about an advertiser because I am the advertiser.
Okay. So maybe pay for hosting, maybe pay for domain name, you know, pay for some of your ancillary costs. Okay. If that happens, fantastic. I'll keep on podcasting rock and roll. And even if it doesn't happen, I wanna keep on podcasting and going because I haven't had enough surgeries yet. And my voice is back. So we gotta, you know, we gotta do something in my neck. And then go Sam, don't pay for all those surgeries like they should. Right? No. I
I pay for those So you gotta have an extra cat. Okay. So so I I I could see that that you being your own advertiser definitely could be an advantage but for as a pod racked person -- Mhmm. -- is it I I became my own advertiser, knowing about my stuff. Right. Well, then it it goes to the point of why did you get into podcasting? Did you get it to put out a product? Did you put get it to put out a book? Let's say, a book on podcasting.
Alright. That's popular these days. That's popular these days. If you go on there, and you will see a Check the Amazon kids. And there we go that right back to Amazon. Yeah. Which I I I tell you, I don't have any inside information, but if you think about it, why not? Because they have Amazon Music, they have the videos, the prime videos, the unlimited music. So let's say Amazon dips their toe in there and they provide
a pay for content model -- Mhmm. -- and then allow advertisers again. Now we're we're getting into future scope in the sense of -- Sure. -- let's say that that they if you wanna be a podcaster in the Apple ecosystem -- Mhmm. -- and they decide they'll pay you 10 bucks a month per episode.
And now you can listen to all my episodes for free. But you could already listen to them for free already. Right. So what's the catch? And is the catch is without advertisers? Well, maybe I didn't have any advertisers already.
Right. So where's the the incentive is is as a podcast would be like, well, I didn't have 10 bucks before. Now Amazon wants to be me 10 bucks. Mhmm. Bob's your uncle. Right? I'm I'm right there. Doesn't that kind of feel like the way music went with iTunes when before I could, like, why just go buy the CD? Only Tower Records doesn't exist anymore? No. Yeah. Your mom and pop record stores, they're still out there. They still exist.
IPad killed the big business ones, the big ones. Yeah. Well and because -- Right. -- they couldn't pivot. They couldn't pivot quick enough. And they couldn't
like like, with Comcast, we always have to talk about, you know, getting into your niche. The mom and pop record stores are still out there because, you know, they're they're still doing vinyl. You know, the record store day is still a big thing. You know, it's just like comic book store day. That's still the big thing out there across the country. People want that.
For whatever music they're looking at they're looking at to get. People still want that niche. So the mom and pop record stores can pivot faster versus the tower records, the virgin records, virgin record stores. They couldn't pivot that quick. So if you think about it then, if you come along if you come along that kind of like line of thinking then, Amazon could be tastemaker
in that sense. If I if they pay, you know, if they if they pay let's let's say they grab the top 10000 podcasts. Mhmm. Kinda like the way they did the top 10000 books. Sure. And they give every content author a percentage of the total sale of Howard subscribers get on there. So maybe they get come, like, almost like a subscribers to your podcast and then subscribers to the Amazon ecosystem in general. Right. And you get some nice coin from that. Maybe, I mean, nice coin, you know,
enough to I mean, the Amazon's got Amazon Amazon Web Services. Their cloud, maybe you can start hosting on their cloud for free as a content contributor. Mhmm. So now I don't need a lipson or a blueberry or a spreaker in order to do that stuff. So that takes her my hosting cost. Right. I got out of the way. All I do is produce content. I get subscribers. So I become my own advocate for producing content. Mhmm. And Amazon paves me a little bit on the side for that. Guess what? You could destroy
the podcasting industry. From the sense of Apple's monopoly on it. With that model, could you not? You could take over Apple Podcast tomorrow. Because everybody knows everybody knows Apple. But here's the issue that you have with Apple. When you pull out your cell phone, If you're on Android, can you get on Apple's iTunes? You cannot. No. You can't. So you But I can get on amazon dot com. Fact, I got, like, 2 or 3 apps for Amazon. I got Amazon video. I got Amazon the shopping.
I got I can go on Chrome and download and go to Amazon's website themselves. No. Not not having I can't do that with Apple. Not having an Apple phone normal ever buy. You can do that with an Apple phone too. You can go on to Amazon. You certainly can. And there you And this is kind of I mean, you think about the 4 horsemen of the of the of the economic apocalypse. Right? You have Amazon? Definitely horsemen. Google, certainly a horseman. Yeah. You have Facebook,
certainly a horseman, and you have Apple. Right. Those are the 4. The fifth 1 is the 1 they still fight about. Is it gonna be Walmart? Is it gonna be Netflix? Mhmm. Because the fifth 1 still kinda moves in and out, Jackie's position. Right? Sure. But those are some big companies. I mean, Amazon and Apple were fighting for trillion dollar evaluation. Those are the first 2 companies that started working there. I think Apple beat them right there. Right? Yeah. Got hit. The Amazon right after. Not too far away. Now now the CEO or the
I guess, is he CEO, Jeff Bezos? Yeah. Of of Amazon. Yeah. Now he's looking at, you know, doing rockets like like Elon Musk. Elon Musk. He's trying to use space in rockets and Mars. I mean, like I said, when you what do you do when you're a billionaire. Right? You you wanna do planets. Right? But if you think about the vulnerability Apple currently has -- Mhmm. -- with the where they've left their iTunes, Apple Podcasts, wear. I mean, their search engines
not that great. Right. Their turnaround times not that great. They've kind of they kind of have this black box we're keeping a secret commentality that podcasts, especially indie podcasts that don't really like so much. What we did by creating the Gaggle pod network page -- Mhmm. Was we went through the whole process of doing that only to find out that you can't do any kind of stylization
or customization to it unless you're a big player like a wondery or a a gimlet. Mhmm. So, okay, that was, you know, yeah, create a network. It doesn't really matter because, you know, if you're a little fish, they don't care. Right. That all being said, Amazon could punch them in the face very easily because Amazon's on all platforms all phones, it it comes preloaded. Amazon has their own tablets,
which I which is, you know, tablet I use is Amazon kind of fire. So let's let's let's take it to the next logical conclusion. Right? So you'll have a hundred and 50000 active podcasts out there. And we've already determined the number is probably even smaller than that. Right. Right? You have probably just like books, 10000
really good ones -- Yeah. -- which may be inflated. But let's let's take the like Dave Jackson's podcast rodeo going through and finding each bad 1. He he finds 1 good 1 for every 5 really bad ones. Right? So let's just say that 1 and 5 are really good, and let's say 10 thousand's the number. Right? Let's give that the number. Of that, that means there are what? A hundred and 40000, okay, if not, fading, not fading, if not bad quality,
something's wrong with them. Right. Too many ads, 5 minutes of garbage the front, never get to the topic, etcetera, etcetera, all these sound problems, what have you. Right? Those 10000 then get invited into the Amazon ecosystem. Mhmm. What happens to the rest?
Do they continue to keep on keeping on? Because you've listened to some of these podcasts. Mhmm. You know, it's a D and D game. They don't care. Don't care. Yeah. It's a broadcast. They don't care. They know who their audience is, and and that's who they play. Which is like, you know, Bob down the street and IVIs and the the the running jokes and all that kind of stuff. Right? Is there then truly if if that's if that's the reality of of the landscape? Mhmm. Is there truly a hundred and 50000
good podcasts out there? Do I know what that number is? Heck, no. I would venture into probably the non pod rack is probably around 10 to 20000 podcasts. Even then, that is Think about your cable TV. How many stations do you have on there? Exactly. Yeah. But you but you don't have 10000 to 20000 stations on there. Maybe a thousand. Now if you have a a a Amazon Fire Stick and UGL Break, that thing, you will get
ton of stations. How many of those are you gonna actually watch? Well, that's just the that's just the whole thing. Is unless you're intimately connected to that topic, I mean, let's let's let's let's let's wait. In the industry of podcast about podcasting, there are probably maybe 5 that I think are really good. Yeah. And the rest?
Not so much. Right. And it may not be anything to do with their content. Content would be okay. I just I don't like the way the host is. I don't like the fact that their music goes on for 2 minutes. I don't like that, you know, what their topics are. Mhmm. I don't like know, there could be just something that can nothing to do with them, right, subjective. K? But if I ask 10 people and they tell me what your 5 or your 5, top podcasting podcast about podcasts are.
Eventually, you're gonna start to see some correlation. Yep. You're gonna start to see the same shows show up over and over and over again, which means that maybe the as you as you each 1 of these categories has the same thing going on. Mhmm. Amazon could just scrape the cream from the top, put them in their own little gold garden. Yeah. And as part of the Amazon Prime service,
I now get good quality content because now they got some skin in the game. Right. Because now Amazon saying, hey, we want more content. Here's some cash. Mhmm. And maybe it's not small potatoes, maybe it's good potatoes. Right. Maybe it's a little bit gravy too, like, you know, discounts off of purchasing.
Or they get free prime themselves. I mean, they could really amp the ante. Sure. I mean, when you have a trillion dollars, we're almost a trillion dollars of the evaluation, A lot of options you could do with that. Yep. But to what point, with a walled garden of the best podcast, prevent more good con more podcasts of appearing outside of it. It's almost like the same problem over again. ITunes emerges
new podcast emerge. Mhmm. They kind of the new and or the rise of the top. Sure. Everyone fights for that, then that becomes a fallacy and, you know, the the era almost like the Roman empire. The fall of of iTunes happens. Steve Jobs dies and what? 2011 Well, and and he's raised from the dead dies again. Must it be upon him. Yes. Right? Oh, same team jobs.
Anyway, you have the the the big, you know, the big the turmoil at Apple because of sleep jobs is passing. And you have this kinda weird thing with podcasting and and iTunes and podcast being all like, Ram. Ram. Ram. Pitchfork and torches. Right? Apple. Right? And so they've kind of neglected this for a while. And and now you have Google kind of jumping up their heels Amazon sniffing around. Yeah. Does the wall garden
concept of of an Amazon doing this kinda sound like just repeating themselves? I think it does, but I think what it is is that you have that the the walled garden of these 10000 really good podcasts that is premium content that that if they can make it a way to pay for the listener to pay. Not for the podcast to pay, but for the listener to pay, Amazon's gonna be the ones that figure that out.
And they already have it set up. Because if you have the Amazon Prime account and Amazon's not sponsoring this, But if you have an Amazon Amazon, a couple of bucks. Amazon, a hundred bucks. Come on. But if you have Amazon Prime codes, like, a hundred and 30 or whatever it is, hundred and 20, 80, whatever it was, You can get some of Amazon music, but not music, not unlimited. You can get some of the videos, but not videos unlimited. Amazon, because create space,
which you can self publish your own book and it can go on to their Kindle. It's all it's all nice and streamlined. Yeah. You can get on kind of real easy, but they've already doing it with the vanity press, the self publishing because I've got I've got 3 books on and create space. It's familiar. I can go click on Amazon and grab that book.
And and and have it shipped to me and I'm done and done. That's already set up and good to go. Now, do I make -- I see. Yeah. -- for Amazon to do that? No. I make a little royal to off of every book that I sell. Okay. But I don't pay any upfront costs now if I want a proof of the book in my hand ahead of time. Yeah. I gotta pay for that. Or if I wanna buy it at wholesale, I can buy it at wholesale and get it shipped to me. But I don't make any royalties off of that.
Amazon could do the same thing with podcasting by saying, hey, listen, you know, we're going to give you free bandwidth, so we're going to give you free space. Free hosting through Amazon, through our Amazon web services, which they could. I mean, think about the IT services they have already their disposal. They have everything there Right. To become a host. In fact, there are some podcast hosts that use Amazon as the is in the background. Bingo. Absolutely. I mean, they may not tell you that
but we know who you are. Well And and they are already using it with the Alexa with the whole flash briefing. Yeah. The lady in the tube is becoming kind of a podcast friend. Mhmm. Of course, there's the 500 pound gorilla in the room when it comes to this going down this road. Right? We've talked about skin in the game. Amazon definitely could give you some skin in the game. Yeah. Talk about motivation and passion. Those are 2 very good things to have. We talked about definitely having
you know, is it a job or is it a hobby or you may, you know, are you really kind of dedicating yourself to this because your your your motivation is to make money? Or is it just something you're kind of doing because it's, you know, fun and interesting. Right? Does Amazon want to get into this world? Do they even care? Is it is it really a way of just, I mean, competitively
punching Apple in the face? Or is there something there? Is there something there there? I mean, this is I mean, great speculation. Right. We you heard to hear folks. You're you're you're you're first. Right? We we call it. Right? Amazon's getting the podcast. We we think I mean, we've no information of this. We've we've no you know, we speculate on a lot of things. The world is very interesting from where we're sitting. Could
be predicting in the future. But let's say, let's go down the road of Amazon's what they have gobbled up. Mhmm. They gobbled the books. Yep. They destroyed borders. They gobbled the toys. They destroyed Toys R Us. They got what clothing, targets in their crosshairs. Yep. They've gobbled up Whole Foods. Whole Foods. They've gone up trader joses in their crosshairs. Yeah. They've gobbled up media
content when it comes to creating their own stuff. Now Netflix might possibly intercost crosshairs. They're definitely going after any kind of digital media companies in its sense. Mhmm. Spoken word media well, I mean, audiobooks,
Audible is an Amazon company. So you already have they already got podcasts popping up on Audible. Well, Audible's already a platform which they could leverage if they wanted to. So you're starting to see the the roadside, the signs, the the foretolding signs, the scrolls are opening.
And the Lam broke the seventh seal and behold, Amazon took over podcasting. Right? Yeah. We're starting to see some signs. So when we talk about PodRX and all the crap out there, and iTunes not cleaning up their their mess, Apple Podcast.
And the other directories that are kinda like, you know, if you look at the what is it? Rob Walsh from Ipsen talked about stats all the time. I mean, Apple was still 65 percent of all downloads comes from iTunes. Why? The iPhone. That's why we all know that. Right? Native apps for Apple is what made podcasting so so successful -- Right. -- at least at the beginning. With that being said, you now start to enter a world where
Is it something that Amazon is going after? Is it is it some place that they want to go? Well, financially speaking, Is there any even money there? I mean, there's people listening. Right? But where's where's the where's the golden egg? Maybe that's the good question. That's and and that brings us full circle too, the whole Casper ads. Why did I buy a Casper ad? Oh, okay. So okay. Sell me on this. Because
if you think about it, okay, Amazon has the tablets. Amazon has the Alexa. It's a lot easier to work with Amazon through their tablet and then they show up and add every couple of, you know, every couple of things, every time you turn out and boom, there's an ad. Every time that screen is on, there's an ad. Could it be that that Amazon decides to be the champion of podcasting? And it's all really in messaging. Mhmm. If they decide to to reach out and become the champion of podcasters.
There's really little I could stop them. Right. I think I think really like, I think what you were talking about with all the connections and all the different subscription services that are applied in just a Prime membership. Mhmm. They're really kind of in the position that if they wanted to, could become a just with a little bit of marketing and communications, they could become the number 1 champion of podcasting -- Mhmm. -- overnight. It's the framework
is already set up. Well, Amazon, if you're listening, my name is Kyle Bondo, and my resume is on LinkedIn. So by all means, reach out to me. Before you reach out to Kyle, I'm gonna need a cohost and a co and a co CEO of whatever that's gonna be. His name's Tim Brian's in the cross for me. We have a exclusive contract -- That's right. -- is it 1 of us? You get both of them. We're like the Cohen Brothers. Yeah. We have a creative the creative duo
2 brain. I guess Hollywood is really big in a brother's lately. It seems like every movie's gotta be directed by a pair of brothers, ramps. So why not? Amazon, podcast? Hey, Tim and Kyle right here. We're ready to we're ready to go. Bondo and Brian. We're ready back together. B and B. Trademarking for days. So any last words? What do you what what do you think of this is so this is episode 1. K. You made it this far. I made it at the end of episode 1. Know my way to go. Well, I I think
what I'm trying to get across to new podcasters out there that are listening to this and to old podcasters that are listening to this. You know, folks have been around for 15 years. So Dave, if you're listening to them, listen up to the guy maybe this sounds a lot better. Dave listens at, like, 2 x speed or something like that. Right now, I just let we just mess with him. Talk. We should just really slew it down. He'll think he's tripping NASA. Whoa.
Would tell I would tell her listeners out there that what you need to do is you need to pay attention to the industry. Be agile. And I know it's agile. Big a or little a. Little a. Little a. Okay. Little a little a. Little a little a little agile. Smart move. If if you're a little guy in a big in a big pond, you can survive out there. But just be aware and cognizant of what's going on, what's the trends going on, who you are
and how you relate to that to that pond that you're in. Because at 1 point, the big fish in that pond, we're a little fish like you. But, yeah, just be cognizant of what's going on in the industry, what's going on around you. Learn from it. Learn from other people's mistakes. You're gonna make your own. And they're gonna be beautiful, wonderful mistakes. And just always be learning, always be, you know, that next episode is your best episode. Oh, alright.
Words to live by right there. That should be on like a t shirt. So Go record something. Can't fix a podcast, you never start. Amen. Trademark. Dave Jackson. All of fame pod All of fame podcaster for these Dave Jackson. That's a good play. It's a good note to end on.
Well, thank you again for listening to pod rack. If you want to find more about the show, please go to pod rack dot com Or if you wanna send us an email, let us know something that you think is wrecked out there. Let us know at pod rack at gmail dot com. Again for listening. Really appreciate it. And hopefully, you'll join us again for another wild ride through the oceans and podcasting. Take care. So podcast wake up. Penelope, I heard Penelope. Penelope. Penelope.
I don't think it's called Penelope. I don't think it's called Monopoly. Monopoly? Oh, globally. Monopoly. There there. Oh, there. That's clever. No. That's the that's the mnemonic there.